Passion Struck with John R. Miles

Episode 667: Olga Khazan on The Science and Promise of Personality Change

Date: September 23, 2025
Guest: Olga Khazan, Staff Writer at The Atlantic; Author of Me but Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change

Episode Overview

In this episode of Passion Struck, host John R. Miles sits down with Olga Khazan to explore the reality and promise of personality change—drawing from Olga’s new book, Me but Better. The conversation goes beyond “self-improvement,” diving into the science supporting the possibility of personality transformation, the role of social connection, actionable research, and the lived experience of feeling like an outsider. Listeners will walk away with insights on designing meaningful change, confronting limiting beliefs, and harnessing their uniqueness as a source of strength.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. A Personal Catalyst for Change (06:20–09:08)

• Defining moment: Olga describes a meltdown after a day filled with small frustrations, which made her realize she was “bogged down by minor frustrations” and losing sight of the positive aspects of life.
  • Quote: “It keeps me from seeing the forest from the trees, it keeps me from appreciating my life, experiencing joy... if one little thing goes wrong, I would totally fall to pieces.” (07:51, Olga Khazan)
• Pressure addiction and burnout: Prior to beginning her experiment, Olga’s life revolved around work, sacrificing community, hobbies, and self-care.

2. The Importance of Social Connection (09:08–10:15)

• Weak ties research: Even minor social interactions matter for our sense of belonging and well-being.
  • Quote: “We’re not really evolved to be these individuals staring at screens all day and not talking to anyone... It’s important to feel woven into the social fabric at least a little bit.” (09:49, Olga Khazan)

3. Can Adults Really Change Their Personality? (10:15–13:28)

• Challenging the “set in stone” myth: Addressing William James’s claim that personality “sets like plaster,” Olga notes that research and real-life stories (including her own and William James’s) demonstrate change is possible.
  • Quote: “Even [James] didn’t really live up to that... there’s comfort in feeling like we’ll never change... even if it’s maladaptive, it can feel safer.” (11:49, Olga Khazan)

4. Brick by Brick: Transformative Change at Any Stage (13:28–14:40)

• Extreme vs. incremental change: While hitting rock bottom can prompt massive transformation (e.g., recovery journeys), incremental changes—even just inching toward a more extroverted or organized self—can be equally meaningful.

5. Behavioral Tools for Transforming Personality (14:40–16:58)

• Nathan Hudson’s study: Change comes not just from wishing, but from acting—consistently practicing the behaviors of your “desired” personality traits.
  • Examples: Daily challenges targeting extroversion (e.g., greet someone new) or neuroticism (e.g., practice meditation or reframe worries).
  • Quote: “You have to actually perform the behaviors of the kind of personality that you’d like to have rather than just think about it.” (15:06, Olga Khazan)

6. Navigating Introversion and Extroversion (16:58–21:20)

• Imposter syndrome of introverts: Both host and guest recount how acting extroverted (for work, improv, parenting) can be exhausting for true introverts.
• Brian Little’s “free traits”: Anyone can “try on” a personality trait for purposes that matter to them, but restorative downtime is crucial.
  • Quote: “You can all try on a personality trait for a certain period of time or for a certain purpose... afterward, [you need] a restorative niche.” (17:54, Olga Khazan)

7. Restorative Routines for “Extrovert Burnout” (19:52–21:20)

• Tactics for parents and professionals: Olga suggests intentionally scheduling restorative solo activities (yoga, massage, walks in nature) and carving out moments of peace throughout the day for introverts in demanding environments.

8. Improv, Public Speaking, and Embracing Awkwardness (21:43–27:21)

• Improv as a tool: Both John and Olga describe how improv classes pushed their boundaries, increased comfort with uncertainty, and revealed that struggle is universal—even for trained actors.
  • Memorable moment: “We were packing for a trip together... circling this idea that we were going to bring something really strange... the buildup made the payoff a lot better than if I had tried to settle it before it was time. Maybe a lesson in there about control and its limits.” (26:07, Olga Khazan)

9. Episodic Future Thinking and Conscientiousness (27:21–30:12)

• Visualization for tedious tasks: Envisioning the end result helps fuel motivation and build habits associated with more organized, industrious personality types.
  • Quote: “Episodic future thinking is like envisioning—what is that end stage going to look like?... to grit your way through them, essentially.” (29:00, Olga Khazan)

10. “Fake It Until You Become It” (30:12–33:01)

• Imposter syndrome is universal: First attempts at any new pursuit feel inauthentic—but that doesn’t mean you’re not genuinely growing.
  • Quote: “Almost everyone feels like an imposter at first, in everything... I would just not worry too much if it’s a goal that you have that you feel connected to.” (32:18, Olga Khazan)

11. The Big Five Personality Traits and the Hardest One to Shift (33:01–35:30)

• OCEAN explained: Openness, Conscientiousness, Extroversion, Agreeableness, Neuroticism.
• Most challenging: Olga found “neuroticism” (anxiety, emotional volatility) most resistant to change—requiring deeper self-understanding and consistent practices like meditation.

12. Deep vs. Surface Connections (35:51–39:22)

• “Big talk” over small talk: Meaningful relationships develop through vulnerability and deeper conversations—transforming isolation, especially for new parents.
  • Quote: “Most people enjoy talking about deeper issues... more than they like catching up on the weather.” (36:16, Olga Khazan)

13. Environment & Social Habits (39:22–40:42)

• Shifting social patterns: Changing habits (e.g., drinking less) often invites a reassessment of activities and friendships; finding non-alcohol-centric ways to connect (like improv, sailing).

14. Impact on Relationships and Self-Perception (40:42–42:09)

• External vs. internal change: Friends noticed Olga became more open and confident, but the most profound results of personality change are often felt internally.

15. On Writing and Changing Perspective (42:09–43:16)

• Evolution through exposure: Immersing in diverse groups transformed Olga’s writing style from caustic to more empathetic, showing how personality change sparks creative growth.

16. Aphorisms as Anchors for Change (43:16–45:15)

• Favorite aphorism:
  • “All we can do is everything we can do.” (David Axelrod)
  • Letting go of control and accepting uncertainty has given Olga lasting peace.

17. Final Takeaway (45:54–46:03)

• Quote: “Not to get too attached to what you think your personality is—because it can still change. And that might be a good thing.” (45:54, Olga Khazan)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the myth of fixed traits:
  “More recent studies found that people do change after they’re 30... the world needs to accommodate me—I’m not going to do anything differently. Even if it’s maladaptive, it can feel safer to feel that we’ll never change.” (11:33–12:20, Olga Kazan)

• On practicing traits in real life:
  “You have to actually perform the behaviors... rather than just think about it and be like, I wish I were the kind of person who would go running every day.” (15:00–15:06, Olga Kazan)

• On deep conversation:
  “Most people are ready for deeper conversation topics than, ‘Where did you go on vacation?’” (37:13, Olga Kazan)

• On the limits of control:
  “You can try very hard... but you can’t ultimately control the outcome. Like, you have to let go at a certain point and let the cards fall where they may. And to me, that was really freeing...” (00:46 and 43:36, Olga Kazan)

• Ultimate encouragement:
  “Not to get too attached to what you think your personality is, because it can still change. And that might be a good thing.” (45:54, Olga Kazan)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Defining moment for change: 06:50–08:08
• Social connection/weak ties: 09:29–10:15
• Challenging fixed personality myth: 11:17–12:20
• Tools for personality change (Nathan Hudson Study): 14:40–16:58
• Introversion/extroversion & restorative habits: 16:58–21:20
• Improv and embracing discomfort: 21:43–27:21
• Episodic future thinking: 27:21–30:12
• Fake it until you become it: 30:12–33:01
• Big Five traits & neuroticism: 33:13–35:30
• Big talk vs. small talk: 35:51–39:22
• Aphorisms and surrendering control: 43:36–45:15
• Olga’s final advice: 45:54–46:03

Further Resources

• Olga’s Substack: olgakhazan.substack.com
• Her work at The Atlantic: theatlantic.com
• Book: Me but Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change
• Big Five personality assessments: personalityassessor.com

Episode Takeaways

• Personality—though influenced by genetics and upbringing—can be changed meaningfully at any age through intentional behaviors, self-reflection, and environmental shifts.
• Small social ties and deeper, vulnerable conversations are as critical as close friendships in building a sense of mattering and belonging.
• Discomfort, awkwardness, and feeling like an imposter are universal—growth requires accepting temporary fakeness.
• Surrendering control and embracing uncertainty can be profoundly freeing.

Listening to this episode is an invitation: don’t accept who you are as a foregone conclusion. Change is incremental, messy, hard—and entirely possible.