Olga Khazan on The Science and Promise of Personality Change | EP 667

Summary

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Passion Struck with John R. Miles

Episode 667: Olga Khazan on The Science and Promise of Personality Change

Date: September 23, 2025
Guest: Olga Khazan, Staff Writer at The Atlantic; Author of Me but Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Passion Struck, host John R. Miles sits down with Olga Khazan to explore the reality and promise of personality change—drawing from Olga’s new book, Me but Better. The conversation goes beyond “self-improvement,” diving into the science supporting the possibility of personality transformation, the role of social connection, actionable research, and the lived experience of feeling like an outsider. Listeners will walk away with insights on designing meaningful change, confronting limiting beliefs, and harnessing their uniqueness as a source of strength.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. A Personal Catalyst for Change (06:20–09:08)

• Defining moment: Olga describes a meltdown after a day filled with small frustrations, which made her realize she was “bogged down by minor frustrations” and losing sight of the positive aspects of life.
  • Quote: “It keeps me from seeing the forest from the trees, it keeps me from appreciating my life, experiencing joy... if one little thing goes wrong, I would totally fall to pieces.” (07:51, Olga Khazan)
• Pressure addiction and burnout: Prior to beginning her experiment, Olga’s life revolved around work, sacrificing community, hobbies, and self-care.

2. The Importance of Social Connection (09:08–10:15)

• Weak ties research: Even minor social interactions matter for our sense of belonging and well-being.
  • Quote: “We’re not really evolved to be these individuals staring at screens all day and not talking to anyone... It’s important to feel woven into the social fabric at least a little bit.” (09:49, Olga Khazan)

3. Can Adults Really Change Their Personality? (10:15–13:28)

• Challenging the “set in stone” myth: Addressing William James’s claim that personality “sets like plaster,” Olga notes that research and real-life stories (including her own and William James’s) demonstrate change is possible.
  • Quote: “Even [James] didn’t really live up to that... there’s comfort in feeling like we’ll never change... even if it’s maladaptive, it can feel safer.” (11:49, Olga Khazan)

4. Brick by Brick: Transformative Change at Any Stage (13:28–14:40)

• Extreme vs. incremental change: While hitting rock bottom can prompt massive transformation (e.g., recovery journeys), incremental changes—even just inching toward a more extroverted or organized self—can be equally meaningful.

5. Behavioral Tools for Transforming Personality (14:40–16:58)

• Nathan Hudson’s study: Change comes not just from wishing, but from acting—consistently practicing the behaviors of your “desired” personality traits.
  • Examples: Daily challenges targeting extroversion (e.g., greet someone new) or neuroticism (e.g., practice meditation or reframe worries).
  • Quote: “You have to actually perform the behaviors of the kind of personality that you’d like to have rather than just think about it.” (15:06, Olga Khazan)

6. Navigating Introversion and Extroversion (16:58–21:20)

• Imposter syndrome of introverts: Both host and guest recount how acting extroverted (for work, improv, parenting) can be exhausting for true introverts.
• Brian Little’s “free traits”: Anyone can “try on” a personality trait for purposes that matter to them, but restorative downtime is crucial.
  • Quote: “You can all try on a personality trait for a certain period of time or for a certain purpose... afterward, [you need] a restorative niche.” (17:54, Olga Khazan)

7. Restorative Routines for “Extrovert Burnout” (19:52–21:20)

• Tactics for parents and professionals: Olga suggests intentionally scheduling restorative solo activities (yoga, massage, walks in nature) and carving out moments of peace throughout the day for introverts in demanding environments.

8. Improv, Public Speaking, and Embracing Awkwardness (21:43–27:21)

• Improv as a tool: Both John and Olga describe how improv classes pushed their boundaries, increased comfort with uncertainty, and revealed that struggle is universal—even for trained actors.
  • Memorable moment: “We were packing for a trip together... circling this idea that we were going to bring something really strange... the buildup made the payoff a lot better than if I had tried to settle it before it was time. Maybe a lesson in there about control and its limits.” (26:07, Olga Khazan)

9. Episodic Future Thinking and Conscientiousness (27:21–30:12)

• Visualization for tedious tasks: Envisioning the end result helps fuel motivation and build habits associated with more organized, industrious personality types.
  • Quote: “Episodic future thinking is like envisioning—what is that end stage going to look like?... to grit your way through them, essentially.” (29:00, Olga Khazan)

10. “Fake It Until You Become It” (30:12–33:01)

• Imposter syndrome is universal: First attempts at any new pursuit feel inauthentic—but that doesn’t mean you’re not genuinely growing.
  • Quote: “Almost everyone feels like an imposter at first, in everything... I would just not worry too much if it’s a goal that you have that you feel connected to.” (32:18, Olga Khazan)

11. The Big Five Personality Traits and the Hardest One to Shift (33:01–35:30)

• OCEAN explained: Openness, Conscientiousness, Extroversion, Agreeableness, Neuroticism.
• Most challenging: Olga found “neuroticism” (anxiety, emotional volatility) most resistant to change—requiring deeper self-understanding and consistent practices like meditation.

12. Deep vs. Surface Connections (35:51–39:22)

• “Big talk” over small talk: Meaningful relationships develop through vulnerability and deeper conversations—transforming isolation, especially for new parents.
  • Quote: “Most people enjoy talking about deeper issues... more than they like catching up on the weather.” (36:16, Olga Khazan)

13. Environment & Social Habits (39:22–40:42)

• Shifting social patterns: Changing habits (e.g., drinking less) often invites a reassessment of activities and friendships; finding non-alcohol-centric ways to connect (like improv, sailing).

14. Impact on Relationships and Self-Perception (40:42–42:09)

• External vs. internal change: Friends noticed Olga became more open and confident, but the most profound results of personality change are often felt internally.

15. On Writing and Changing Perspective (42:09–43:16)

• Evolution through exposure: Immersing in diverse groups transformed Olga’s writing style from caustic to more empathetic, showing how personality change sparks creative growth.

16. Aphorisms as Anchors for Change (43:16–45:15)

• Favorite aphorism:
  • “All we can do is everything we can do.” (David Axelrod)
  • Letting go of control and accepting uncertainty has given Olga lasting peace.

17. Final Takeaway (45:54–46:03)

• Quote: “Not to get too attached to what you think your personality is—because it can still change. And that might be a good thing.” (45:54, Olga Khazan)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the myth of fixed traits:
  “More recent studies found that people do change after they’re 30... the world needs to accommodate me—I’m not going to do anything differently. Even if it’s maladaptive, it can feel safer to feel that we’ll never change.” (11:33–12:20, Olga Kazan)

• On practicing traits in real life:
  “You have to actually perform the behaviors... rather than just think about it and be like, I wish I were the kind of person who would go running every day.” (15:00–15:06, Olga Kazan)

• On deep conversation:
  “Most people are ready for deeper conversation topics than, ‘Where did you go on vacation?’” (37:13, Olga Kazan)

• On the limits of control:
  “You can try very hard... but you can’t ultimately control the outcome. Like, you have to let go at a certain point and let the cards fall where they may. And to me, that was really freeing...” (00:46 and 43:36, Olga Kazan)

• Ultimate encouragement:
  “Not to get too attached to what you think your personality is, because it can still change. And that might be a good thing.” (45:54, Olga Kazan)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Defining moment for change: 06:50–08:08
• Social connection/weak ties: 09:29–10:15
• Challenging fixed personality myth: 11:17–12:20
• Tools for personality change (Nathan Hudson Study): 14:40–16:58
• Introversion/extroversion & restorative habits: 16:58–21:20
• Improv and embracing discomfort: 21:43–27:21
• Episodic future thinking: 27:21–30:12
• Fake it until you become it: 30:12–33:01
• Big Five traits & neuroticism: 33:13–35:30
• Big talk vs. small talk: 35:51–39:22
• Aphorisms and surrendering control: 43:36–45:15
• Olga’s final advice: 45:54–46:03

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Further Resources

• Olga’s Substack: olgakhazan.substack.com
• Her work at The Atlantic: theatlantic.com
• Book: Me but Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change
• Big Five personality assessments: personalityassessor.com

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Episode Takeaways

• Personality—though influenced by genetics and upbringing—can be changed meaningfully at any age through intentional behaviors, self-reflection, and environmental shifts.
• Small social ties and deeper, vulnerable conversations are as critical as close friendships in building a sense of mattering and belonging.
• Discomfort, awkwardness, and feeling like an imposter are universal—growth requires accepting temporary fakeness.
• Surrendering control and embracing uncertainty can be profoundly freeing.

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Listening to this episode is an invitation: don’t accept who you are as a foregone conclusion. Change is incremental, messy, hard—and entirely possible.

Transcript

[Audible Narrator]

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[John R. Miles]

Coming up next on Passion Struck.

[Olga Kazan]

You can try very hard. You can do everything in your power to try to get a certain outcome, but you can't ultimately control the outcome. Like you have to let go at a certain point and let the cards fall where they may. And to me, that was really freeing because I had lived my whole life thinking that if I didn't control the outcome and I didn't have the outcome that I wanted, that it was my personal fault and I should have done things differently. But I could just, I don't know, it's like, nice to know that like other people also have this struggle and have realized that at a certain point, yeah, you can try. You can work on a political campaign super duper hard and then come election day they might pick the other guy. And that's just part of life.

[John R. Miles]

Welcome to Passion Struck. Hi, I'm your host, John R. Miles, and on the show we decipher the secrets, tips and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries and athletes. Now let's go out there and become Passion Struck.

Welcome to episode 667 and I'm so glad you've joined us. Whether you're a longtime listener or brand new welcome. Over a third of you come back week after week, which tells me Passion Struck isn't just another podcast. Together we're passing the Ripple of matter and farther than we ever imagined. If this show has ever helped you see yourself more clearly or take one small step toward healing, here's how you can help keep it growing. First, share this episode with someone who needs to hear it. Second, leave a five star rating or review on Apple or Spotify. That small act tells the algorithm that these stories matter and helps more people to find them. Before we dive in, I want to let you in on a little secret. We've been working on a project behind the scenes that will take Passion Struck far beyond the podcast. It's going to give you new ways to engage with these ideas, apply them in your own life and with your families, and spread them into your communities. I can't reveal it just yet, but the announcement is coming very, very soon and you're going to want to be.

Here when we share it.

We also just relaunched the Start Mattering store where you can wear your why Every piece was designed to move with you last through the years and whisper every time you put it on. You matter, your story matters, your choices ripple. Find your new favorite piece@start mattering.com and don't forget the passion Start Network is officially live a Creator first ecosystem built around mattering, not metrics. If you want voices that inspire transformation, not just consumption, explore what's [e-mail] now let's talk about where we are in our Decoding Humanity series. This series is about understanding what makes us human, the forces that shape how we live, love, work, and belong. Over the past few weeks, we've gone on quite a journey together. Last Tuesday, Cheryl McKessick Daniel took us through her family's five generation story, showing us how legacy can be both built.

And carried forward with intention.

On Thursday, evolutionary psychologist Bill von Hippel helped us uncover why connection is not just a nice to have, but a core survival need baked into our biology. And in my solo episode last Friday, I introduced the Choice Framework, a tool to help you reclaim your agency, align with your values, and take ownership of the life you're building, today's conversation is the next natural step. Joining me is Olga Kazan, staff writer for the Atlantic and author of the Power of Being an Outsider in an Insider World. If Sheryl showed us the power of honoring where we've come from, and Bill explained why connection is essential, Olga shows us what to do when we feel like we don't quite fit anywhere. In this conversation, we explore what it feels like to grow up as an outsider and how those experiences shape resilience and creativity. We discuss the subtle ways social norms pressure us to conform and how to resist without losing ourselves. We go into how to transform weirdness from something we hide into our superpower and why the very people who feel like misfits are often the ones who change the world. If you've ever felt like you're on the outside looking in or question whether your uniqueness is holding you back, this episode will give you the courage to see your differences as your greatest strength. Thank you for choosing Passion Struck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life.

Now let that journey begin.

[Olga Kazan]

Hey, this is Sarah. Look, I'm standing out front of a.m. p.m. Right now and well, you're sweet and all, but I found something more fulfilling, even kind of cheesy. But I like it. Sure you met some of my dietary needs, but they've just got it all so far. Well, oatmeal so long use triple strange soggy break up with bland breakfast and taste AM PMs bacon, egg and cheese biscuit made with cage free eggs, smoked bacon and melty cheese on a buttery biscuit. AM PM too much Good stuff.

[John R. Miles]

I am so excited today to welcome Olga Kazan on Passion Struck. Welcome Olga. How are you today?

[Olga Kazan]

I'm good, how are you?

[John R. Miles]

I am so excited to interview you about your brand new book Me But Better the science and promise of Personality Change and change is what we're all about here on Passion Strucks. I like to start these episodes out oftentimes with questions about you before the book was published. So I thought I'd start out by asking you was there a defining moment or something that led you to realize that something had to change with inside of you?

[Olga Kazan]

It's the moment that I describe in the beginning of the book, which is I had this day of a series of minor frustrations. I got a really bad haircut and I went to go get my photo taken and the photos looked really bad. And then I got stuck in traffic and like made a wrong turn and led me to get even further stuck in traffic. And then I had this thing, you know when you go grocery shopping and the cart is out of range and so it locks up for some reason it locked my cart when I was still like 50ft from my car. So I had to drag this shopping cart across the parking lot with its locked wheels. It's like sweating this whole time because it's in Miami. All while this is happening, my boss is slacking me questions about a story that's going through edits, and I just lose it. I get back to the Airbnb where we're staying, and I just start crying and chugging wine and saying I hate everyone and everything. And it just made me realize that I have a tendency to get so bogged down by minor frustrations, like the little things in life that don't go according to plan. But it keeps me from seeing the forest, from the trees, it keeps me from appreciating my life, experiencing joy, even just having a fine day. Because if one little thing goes wrong, I would totally fall to pieces.

[John R. Miles]

Yeah. Will you describe yourself as a quote, unquote, pressure addiction? Can you take us a little bit into what a typical day in your life looked like before you ran this experiment?

[Olga Kazan]

Yes, But I will say that my life has actually gotten more stressful since I wrote the book because I had a baby. And so now my life is just nonstop stress. Whereas before it was just mostly stressful, but I basically woke up, had chronic insomnia, and I still do. And so I would toss and turn all night and then wake up in time for work. And then I would work pretty much from nine to six, cook and eat dinner, and then in the evening I would just do more work, basically. And I was always trying to move my career forward or get to the next level. And I was doing this at to the exclusion of anything else, like, including having a community or any friendships or anything, hobbies, like anything going on that wasn't work I basically just didn't do. And I started to realize after a while that wasn't totally healthy.

[John R. Miles]

A lot of what I talk about on this show is our fundamental need to matter and how so many people around the world now are experiencing the opposite of that. And I think a lot of it has to do when we lose our connections to those communities that you were just talking about.

Why do you think they're so important?

[Olga Kazan]

I think it just helps you feel seen and feel like a person in the world. One of the people that I talk to for my book, Gillian Sandstrom, she studies the power of weak ties. So these are people who are not actually your best friends. They're people who you kind of chit chat with or make small talk with throughout the day. And even though you might not think there's much to that, like you might not think there's much to saying hi to your Starbucks person or your male guy or whatever, those little small moments and connections really do matter. We're not really evolved to be like these individuals staring at screens all day. And not talking to anyone like we are evolved to live in community to some extent. And it's important to feel woven into the social fabric at least a little bit.

[John R. Miles]

I think a lot of us want to improve how we feel about ourselves. But you went down the path of trying to redesign who you actually were, and that's a radical leap. Why did you come to the conclusion that was even possible? Because a lot of people, once you get past a certain age, think it's impossible to change.

[Olga Kazan]

So a lot of the things that we might want to change about ourselves, like making more friends, becoming more organized, becoming more up for new adventures and experiences, or learning how to be more relaxed or less anxious, those actually are all forms of personality change. There's five traits that make up personality, and we're all on a spectrum of each of these traits. And so moving a little bit along a certain trait can really make a big difference in how you approach life. The kinds of things you're willing to expose yourself to, and ultimately how happy you are. So really, it's really hard to change your life or change yourself without actually changing your personality.

[John R. Miles]

Well, I want to come back to the traits in a second, but William James famously said that our personality sets like plaster the words he used at by the age of 30. Why do you think that myth that William James talked about is held so tightly by people?

[Olga Kazan]

Right. It is a myth. More recent studies found that people do change after they're 30. And actually, as I write in my book, William James himself changed after he was 30. He overcame this, like, depression that had plagued him his entire life and started to write some of his best work after he turned 30. So even he didn't really live up to that. I think, though, there is like a comfort in feeling like we'll never change. Like, I feel like it limits the number of things that you're putting yourself out there for. You know what I mean? It's, oh, I don't need to make more friends, or I don't need to try for that job, or I don't need to start a workout plan because I'll never change. And that can almost be like a little bit reassuring. The whole world needs to accommodate me. I'm not going to do anything differently. And even if it's maladaptive, it can feel safer to feel that we'll never change. Yeah.

[John R. Miles]

About four years ago, I interviewed this gentleman, Nate Dukes. Nate had graduated college, started co founded a startup, and found himself in this position where he had more money, more comforts than he ever had in his life before. And he started to experiment with drugs and get into bad communities. And it all culminated with him stealing a car and then getting caught sleeping in it as he had cross borders from where he lived into Tennessee. And so he was sent to jail as a result. And he told me coming out of it that so many people told him, you'll never change. You're stuck in who you are. And he told me that his journey from that and now he's become a youth pastor, he's an author, he's completely evolved his life. But he said that what he realized is that the beauty of finding yourself at the deepest low point that you can think of as you get to build your life back brick by brick. And do you think that analogy holds true?

[Olga Kazan]

I love that story and I'm so glad that he believed that he could change. But you see this all the time. My book actually has really resonated with people in recovery, I think because of that same principle. Because they really do have to rebuild their lives brick by brick. Like they really do famously hit rock bottom. And then they have to change all of their friends and they have to go about their daily life differently, find new hobbies, new ways of getting meaning from their lives. But I actually think you can do this without hitting rock bottom. Like you can just feel like I feel a little stuck. Like maybe you're in a part of your career where it's just not as fulfilling as it used to be. It's not horrible, but it's not like the best thing ever. You're not like super excited about it anymore. And what would really help you get to the next level is becoming a better public speaker or a better manager or more of a people person. That's an increase in the trade of extroversion that doesn't really have to be that extreme in order for it to make a pretty big difference and allow you to get to a different type of job or a different type of career. So while it can be helpful to hit rock bottom and have this come to Jesus moment, you can also just look at your life and think, what do I really want that I'm holding myself back from?

[John R. Miles]

One of the things that you focus on in the book is a 2019 study that was done by psychologist Nathan Hudson, three of his colleagues, and they designed a tool. I thought maybe you could share a little bit about that tool and how it's helped people perform personality altering new behaviors.

[Olga Kazan]

So this was a study called you have to follow through which all these psychology studies have like titles that are like cheesy in my view. But it just, what it's trying to get at is that you have to actually perform the behaviors of the kind of personality that you'd like to have rather than just think about it and be like, I wish I was the kind of person who would go running every day or whatever. And so what he would do is he asked his study participants to select various traits that they wanted to change. So a lot of them wanted to change on extroversion. They wanted to become more extroverted and a fair amount also wanted to become less neurotic. So they wanted to become less depressed and anxious, as many people do. And then you would assign them daily challenges or tasks that they could do in order to work on those traits. So it would be like say hi to someone, have coffee with someone new, going up to organizing your own meetup group for a bunch of strangers. For some of the neuroticism ones it would be something like meditate, do yoga, go for a walk, or even some like a more cognitive suggestions like journaling or trying to think about your problems differently, like some of the stuff you do in cognitive behavioral therapy. And so after I think it was like 10 weeks or 12 weeks, he really did see changes in his participants personalities based on their ability to do these tasks and actually follow through on what they said they wanted their personalities to look like. So that kind of gives us the idea that this can work in the real world and people who want to change their personalities in a certain direction can actually do that. Now the caveat is that his study though anyone can read it, it's on his website, NathanHudson.com you have to like go through the whole PDF and get to the index and read all the challenges yourself in order to know what they are. I describe some of them in my book, but unfortunately we don't yet have an iPhone app or something where anyone can do this relatively easily.

[John R. Miles]

I want to talk a little bit more about this introvert extrovert difference because like you, I'm an introvert. And I remember for the longest time, as I got into the military first and then my professional career, I would often wonder what's wrong with me because I was so different from many of my peers who were socially engaging and full of life. And I was more introspective and wanted to do research more than converse in these long meetings. And I learned how to be an extrovert. But I found it extremely tiring. Did you ever experience that yourself?

[Olga Kazan]

So I did. I Have the same thing. I still identify as an introvert. I think I need a little bit more extroversion in my life than I initially thought. But yeah, after a two and a half hour improv class, I was ready to go home and like collapse in bed and not be talking anymore. There's one psychologist who I interviewed, Brian Little, who has this concept called, called free traits, which is essentially that we can all try on a personality trait for a certain period of time or for a certain purpose that's important to us. For him, like you, it was extroversion. Like, he's a very introverted college professor, but when he talks to his students, he wants to be really engaging and animated. And so he will put on a extroversion cloak and be like, I'm extroverted. And give a really compelling presentation. And it works like he really feels like an extrovert during that time. Now afterward, he feels really tired and he has to revert back to what he calls a restorative niche, which just means letting yourself introvert out for a little while because you did it. You put yourself out there, you use those extroversion skills, but then let yourself restore, let yourself read or be by yourself or do whatever it is you need to do to feel replenished. Because none of us are going to change so much that you want to be extroverted all the time.

[John R. Miles]

I remember when my kids were growing up, they're now both of them are either in college or out of college. But I remember when I was in your stage of life, I would come home from work and having pretended to be an extrovert all day, I would just be emotionally exhausted. And it was tough because my wife at the time had been with the kids all day and so she needed a break.

[Olga Kazan]

And.

[John R. Miles]

And so I remember coming home and immediately the burden of parenting fell on me, which of course I wanted to do. But oftentimes it was difficult to switch from one mode to the other without any ability to decompress in between the two. I tried to do so on my commute home, but oftentimes it was difficult because I was still getting calls from work or I was still thinking about problems of the day. What do you suggest for people who are facing that same type of dilemma?

[Olga Kazan]

So I definitely have the same problem where, like, I wake up, you're woken up from a dead sleep by someone demanding that you be extroverted, then you're extroverted all day as a journalist, and then you are extroverted all night because you have a toddler and then it's like, yeah. So I would first of all plan really restorative activities for you for when you're not with your kids. For me, it's like getting massages and doing yoga, which is like, no talking, like, just like stretching out my muscles and like, trying to get rid of some of the back pain. So for me, that's really restorative. I would also maybe build in more restorative moments throughout the day. It sounds with a job like that, not everyone can, like, craft it perfectly this way, but maybe some periods of deep work or a long walk where you're maybe still thinking about work or thinking through something, but you're not in a zoom all day. I think like, that what you shared speaks to me that, like, you're actually in, like, this extroverted burnout where it's like too much extroversion. It's really hard to ask your kids to dial it down a little bit. Like, at various ages, they just can't sometimes. My husband and I, what we'll do if we're not for, like, feeling like we can't, like, sing Baby Beluga one more time. We'll just go for a walk with him. Go for a long walk in nature in the stroller. And that way, like, he's looking around, he's having fun, we're walking. No one has to be on. I would just try to build in more of those moments throughout the day because it can be really taxing. You're right.

[John R. Miles]

Don't go anywhere. We'll return in just a moment with.

More from Olga Kazan.

Thank you for supporting those who support the show. This is passion struck on the Passion Struck network. And now let's get back to my conversation with Olga.

So one of the things that I feel like I'm good at, but I've always had to overcome stage fright about is public speaking. And when my book was going to be published in 2024, I knew I was going to be doing a lot more public speaking. So I started to try to get back into what I call fear exercises to get myself prepared for that. So one thing I did was get myself back into doing Toastmasters so I could get some practice in front of being in others. But like you, another thing I decided to do was to start doing improv. And I remember I. I started out with short form, and then I once I did that for a few years, I got into long form. But I remember the first class I ever want to. They had us. I'm not sure what your classes Were like. But they had us do these warm up exercises, like playful exercises. And the first one we did was she played music, had us walk around the room and like, we're dancing. And then she stopped the music and she said, you now have to stare at the person in front of you for 10 minutes without saying anything and try to convey thoughts to them. And the person in front of me was about 20 years younger than me. And I'll tell you, that was one of the most uncomfortable 10 minutes of my life. Felt like 10 years.

[Olga Kazan]

Yeah.

[John R. Miles]

Did you run into anything like that while you were playing?

[Olga Kazan]

Yeah. So improv is so good for exposing you to just the most uncomfortable moments you'll ever feel. I had so many. I'm trying to think. Okay, so one is we were all wearing masks. Cause it was still like it was 20, 21 or 22. Like, we were all. It was still very like pandemic era, my improv class. And it actually made it hard to hear. And as you improv, it's all about reading the person's facial expression and trying to pick up on what they're going to do next based on, like, kind of what, how. What they look like. And we couldn't really do that with the bottom half of their face. So you're always like looking in their eyes or one time like someone just like, totally misheard what I said and I was like, I don't know if he's like improving in his own direction or if he just misheard me and do I correct him that awkward and just like a million situations where you're not sure. Like typical improv stuff where you're like, just not sure how. Where else the scene should go or where there. There was also a warm up game that we played that I really hated, that I now don't even remember the name of. But it involved a lot of staring in people's eyes and it actually made me really uncomfortable. Like, I was. I realized that I actually don't like that much eye contact. And I actually asked if we could just not play it anymore because I was like, this is like, so unsettling. But yeah, part of improv is to roll with the extreme awkwardness sometimes and realize that, like, life can be really awkward and nothing bad really happens.

[John R. Miles]

Yes. First I really struggled because I was trying to perform instead of just relax and go with it and be natural. And what really helped me was a class I was taking was being taught by a person who was an actor who had been a number of films. But one of the Participants in the class was a fairly well known Hollywood actress. And I realized she was struggling as much as everyone else, because it really does take you out of your comfort zone. And when I saw her struggling, I realized, if she's having trouble with this, it's okay that I am too. And it just made me relax and pull the walls down. And once I did that, I started to intuitively start understanding better what was happening in the scenes so I could learn to think ahead, even though sometimes you can't. But it got me prepared, so I was able to at least formulate thoughts before I had to say them. Did you ever have moments like that?

[Olga Kazan]

I felt like actually the best scenes that I had was when I stopped trying to control them as much and I stepped back and let the other person take over. It's funny, I recently on a bunch of LA podcasts and I tried to share that I was. That I took an improv class for this book and when I tell D.C. people, they're like, whoa, I could never do that. And in la, they're like. And like, I'm in, like, four improv groups because I feel like everyone's trying to be an actor out there. But I had one where, like, I was with this guy who was like an accounting professor, and he was reserved and I'd never been in a scene with him and I wasn't sure what to think. And we were in a scene where we were packing for a trip together was, like, the conceit of the scene. And we were both circling, like, this idea that we were gonna bring something really strange on this trip with us. But, like, neither of us were really thinking of what the strange object would be. And so we were like, yeah, did you bring it? And we were like. And I was like, yeah, I packed it. Like, we can't go on the trip without it. And he's. Yeah, the trip would be ruined if we didn't have our thing. And like, eventually, like, one of us had to say what it was because it'd been going on for so long. And he came up with a doll that you punch and it comes back at you. Like, I don't even know what they're called. But for some reason it was just, like, so funny because it's, first of all, not something you would take on a trip. And also, like, unexpected coming from him. And the buildup of us, like, clearly not knowing what this thing is that we were talking about was so, like, extreme that I think, I don't know, it made the payoff a Lot better than if I had been like, it's the super wacky outfits or like whatever tried to settle it before it was time. I don't know, maybe a lesson in there about control and its limits.

[John R. Miles]

I think one of the things that people struggle with is this whole concept of future self. And a couple years ago I was lucky enough to have both Benjamin Hardy and then in short order Hal Hirschfeld on the show because they both had written books on future self psychology. But one thing you talk about yourself is this idea of episodic future thinking, which has been shown to promote a variety of consciousness related behaviors. For a listener who might not be familiar with episodic future thinking, can you share what that is and why it's so important in helping us find our future self?

[Olga Kazan]

Conscientiousness is the trait that's like getting things done. It's like being super organized, being timely, checking things off your to do list. The people who already know how to do this kind of already know how to do it. And the people who don't know how to do this are like, aren't sure how to get there. It's because a lot of those tasks of conscientiousness are very tedious. So if you think about it, it's great to be like an organized person who runs every day at 5:30am and then drinks a green smoothie and then is always on time to the meetings and knows exactly where the paperwork is and everything. But the way that they get through their day is a little bit boring. Like, they wake up at 5, they don't eat a McChicken sandwich in the morning, they have all their papers organized and they probably have spent some time doing that. They probably have a to do list that they made. And so one thing that can help people who like, don't find that very compelling or like rewarding actually go through those motions is to envision what your life will look like once you've accomplished those tedious little tasks of conscientiousness. So let's say you have a big work presentation that you're working on and it's really tedious. Like making these slides or writing this memo is just really boring. I had this when I was formatting my footnotes for my book. It's just not a glamorous task. And it doesn't, it's not fun at all. And it, you just have to grind your way through it. And like, for me, what really helped and what episodic future thinking is like envisioning what is that end stage gonna look like. And then I'll be done, but. And then all my footnotes will look amazing. And the book will look so good when I have it in my hands. And my publisher will be so happy and everyone will be thrilled with how great these footnotes are. And I won't get any mean little Goodreads reviews about how the footnotes don't all line up or something like that. And it can work various ways. It can be something that's like avoiding a negative or promoting a positive. But it's like this big illustration of your end goal that you're connecting all of these little tedious tasks to in order to grit your way through them, essentially, because that's what a lot of it is like. A lot of really fun and awesome things require a lot of intermediary steps that are not fun or awesome, if that makes sense.

[John R. Miles]

It does make sense. As I look back upon my career, a lot of times people will ask me, how were you able to do these things? And maybe it might help for you to understand my background. I came out of the military, went into industry as a management consultant, then went into Fortune 500 companies, and I had positions as Chief Information Security Officer, head of Application development, head of Operations, cio, and eventually became a Chief Operating officer, CEO. And so a lot of people want to know, like, how are you able to do such a diverse, varied group of roles? And I use the mentality that I always felt that I could learn my way into a role and to accept the challenge. And it's something that you call fake it until you become it. As I look back, sometimes I'm surprised even I was able to do some of the things I was able to do. And it begs the question, how do you understand when you're growing? And how do you understand when you're truly faking it as you're going down that path?

[Olga Kazan]

My answer would just be like to not worry about whether you're faking it or not. Everything that you do for the first time is going to feel really fake until you get better at it and it becomes a lot more natural for you. No one feels like a runner the very first time they go for a run. It's pretty rare to have a talent for something that is profound, that you just take to it like a duck to water. And it's no work at all. And it's so easy. And you never feel like an imposter. Almost everyone feels like an imposter at first, in everything. People doing improv, actors. I was just listening to a podcast with Jon Hamm was on it. The Mad Men guy?

[John R. Miles]

Yeah.

[Olga Kazan]

And he was talking about how at one point, Les Moonves, the head of I'm going to get this wrong because we're taping that the head of I think CBS or possibly abc, ahead of a major network, told his agent to stop sending him in for TV tryouts. And because, quote, Jon Hamm will never be a television star. And I found that so funny because, first of all, Jon Hamm became a huge television star. But also everyone who starts out doing something, even Jon Hamm, who we think is like, Don Draper, like, he was born to play Don Draper. It was like never a question whether he would be good at this, was at one time considered not very good at it. And so we're all doing that at first. Every new thing that we do. We're all really far from being a television star or a star at whatever the thing is. And I would just not worry too much if it's a goal that you have that you feel connected to for whatever reason. I wouldn't worry about whether it feels fake.

[John R. Miles]

Olga, earlier on you mentioned the big five traits. Can you discuss with the audience what the five traits are and which one you have found is the hardest to shift?

[Olga Kazan]

Sure. So the five traits can be remembered with the acronym ocean. So it's openness to experiences, which is like creativity and imagination and being the kind of person who says yes to everything. Conscientiousness, which is, like I said, it's getting things done, being on time, being really motivated. E for extroversion, which is both how much you enjoy being around people and just how active you are and how much you get out and about. A for agreeableness, which doesn't mean agreeing with other people so much as having a lot of warmth and empathy for other people. So it's. These people tend to have really good friendships and relationships with their loved ones. And then N for neuroticism, which is depression and anxiety. And the opposite of neuroticism is emotional stability, which is are the people who can let everything roll off their backs. Don't sweat the small stuff type thing. For me, neuroticism was the hardest to change. I was extremely high on neuroticism when I started out. I was in the 94th percentile. And it is one of those where so some of these traits, like, just by going through the motions, you can change on the trait. So, like, if you make a to do list in a Google Calendar and set your clock five minutes ahead or whatever, you can pretty much become conscientious. But for something like neuroticism, it's really something that has to come from the inside. Like you have to kind of want to change and like do a lot of thinking and like reframing your thoughts and thinking about situations differently. And I actually ended up meditating a lot. I meditated for 45 minutes a day as part of this class that I took. And that to me was really challenging. I found it really uncomfortable to just sit, sit with my thoughts for that long.

[John R. Miles]

So I have to ask, where can you go take a test on neuroticism.

[Olga Kazan]

So you can test your level on any of these traits on any Big Five personality test. You can either Google Big Five personality test or you can go to personalityassessor.com that's Nate Hudson's website and he has a ton of free personality tests that are scientifically backed on that site. And I would just take any of the ones that are like Big five or say big five on them.

[John R. Miles]

How would someone know if they have neuroticism? What are some of the telltale signs?

[Olga Kazan]

Do you often feel annoyed? Do you feel like it's hard to get through the day? Have trouble finding joy in kind of day to day life? Feel down a lot? Have trouble sleeping either due to feeling down or agitated? For me it was a lot of worry. So for me it was the anxiety component and I was just like really worried all the time.

[John R. Miles]

Thank you for sharing that. And in the book you explore this concept of big talk versus small talk. Why do deeper conversations matter when you're trying to change who you are?

[Olga Kazan]

Deeper conversations. I think that a lot of people, when they are like, okay, I want to make more friends, right? I want, I'm tired of being so isolated. So they go out and they're like making small talk with a bunch of people and they're like, wow, that sucked. I don't want to make no friends anymore. No one really likes small talk. Like most people enjoy talking about deeper issues or deeper just thoughts that are personal to them more than they like catching up about the weather or how their flight was or whatever else. I took this conversation workshop as part of the book and one of the things we learned is just to like ask people what something was. Like instead of where did you go on vacation? They say Sicily. What was Sicily like? Or why was it important for you to go to Sicily? Or why is travel important to you? What does travel mean to you? Those kind of questions can be a little uncomfortable because we're not used to asking them in polite conversation. But I was so surprised at how quickly people will open up and share things about themselves that are super interesting and actually really revelatory and that you might actually connect to more than I have also been to Sicily or whatever. So it's just something to think about when it comes to meeting new people and connecting with people, that most people are ready for deeper conversation topics than. Where did you go on vacation?

[John R. Miles]

I have to say, I hate the events that you go to where everyone is just doing small talk and which tends to be, I find, vast majority of events we go to. I really prefer, probably similar to you, to have smaller group sessions where you're really having engaged conversation, rather than these larger group events where you don't know the people deeply enough to feel confident that you can get into the big talk moments with them or put yourself out there. So I agree with you there. And the reason I bring it up is before you wrote this book, I heard you when you were on CBS talking about how you would go to a party and you would be the person who would rather be sitting there on their phone reading than involved in these small talk conversations. How do you think things have evolved since then, since you went through this experiment?

[Olga Kazan]

I just think that I would never do that. Like, I. I just actively seek people out now. I'm just constantly trying to get to know more people and to especially reach out to other parents because it can be really isolating. I don't know. It can be really isolating being a mom and a new mom. And I think this has really. I'm glad I did this project before I had a child because it made me realize how important it is to have some sort of, like, connection to other local moms, just to discuss some of the daily challenges or, hey, he's doing this. Is that normal? Or just like, where's a good pediatrician? But also just some bigger questions, like, I don't know. I had a. I hung out with a friend recently, and we had a long conversation about whether we want to have a second kid and, like, the pros and the cons and, like, how that would fit into our lives and how we always saw our lives. And those are, like, really important thoughts to verbalize to another human instead of just, like, stewing on them yourself in perpetuity. And so I don't think I would see myself, like, definitely not going to a party and reading articles on my phone at this point.

[John R. Miles]

One of the things that I wrote about in my own book was that as you're on this path to making changes in your life, often one of the things you have to confront, confront is the environment that you find yourself in. And you might have to make changes to it both in your activities and in the people you surround yourself with. Did you find that was the case with yourself?

[Olga Kazan]

So one thing that I did as part of this is that I pulled back from drinking. I didn't totally quit drinking, although of course I didn't drink while I was pregnant. But I basically just cut down my amount of drinking, I guess is like, the fair way to say it. And I realized that a lot of my socializing throughout my whole adult life had basically been based around drinking. Just because in D.C. a lot of socializing is, let's go out and get drinks. And so I had to, first of all, come up with ways to hang out with people and not drink, but also just come up with things to do. Because going to a bar and staring at each other and drinking Diet Coke is, like, also not that fun. And so things like improv or like, I did sailing or like, skating, it gives you something to do that's not just alcohol. So I'd really recommend that for anyone who's, like, trying to maybe even not quit drinking, but just find other ways of spending your time is just to pick up other activities that you can't drink during.

[John R. Miles]

So we talked earlier about Nate Dukes and how people said, you'll never change. I'm curious, after you started to go through this change yourself, how did your relationships, both ones that you had personally and your professional ones, respond to the changes you were making? Did people believe you were different?

[Olga Kazan]

I did. So I canvassed some of my friends towards the end of my book, and I asked if I seem different, and they said that I did, that I seem more up for doing things and more confident and just more of a yes, kind of had a spirit of yes about me that wasn't there before. But I think, and this gets to an important point, like, I think a lot of personality change is internal, and it's mostly going to be visible internally. It's going to be like, how compelled do you feel to drink? How. How do you handle a rough day? How do you handle a day that, like, nothing particularly good happens? If you move to a new city, are you like, oh, my God, I have no friends and I never will? Or are you, like, can't wait to get to know the local community or whatever? A lot of it is your approach to life and how you go about your day and so it might not be noticeable to other people, because other people only ever see, like, a slice of you anyway. But the point of personality change is not so that other people are like, wow, I like you way better now. And it's more so that you like yourself better and so that you can get more out of life.

[John R. Miles]

Thank you for sharing that. And I'm also interested in your writing because that's one of the things that is your identity. Did you find that your writing shifted at all as you went through this process, or did it stay the same?

[Olga Kazan]

It was interesting because very caustic and, like, judgmental. But as I spent more time within a bunch of groups for a lot of this book, like a anger management group and a conversation group and this group and that group, they were all growing on me. Like, I started to see. See the positives of all of them. And, like, even this meditation class, which I, like, hated for most of the time that I was in it, like, I now have fond memories of it and wish I had almost, like, paid closer attention or been less negative during it, because the way I did, like, all my notes about it are like, and she did this, and that was stupid. But, like, now when I think, when I'm having a hard day or I'm, like, trying to get through something, a lot of the, like, aphorisms that I go to are from that class and things that I learned in that class.

[John R. Miles]

And I have to say, that's not a word that you hear very often. And I recently interviewed Gretchen Rubin about her latest book where she went through all kinds of aphorisms. So it was interesting to get more familiar with their meanings and how powerful a role they play in our lives. Is there one aphorism for you that kind of stands out?

[Olga Kazan]

So, one that I. I actually learned from Dan Harris's book, but it is related to Buddhism, which I was studying extensively during this time. Is all we can do is everything we can do. And it's from David Axelrod, the political consultant. And it basically just means that you can try very hard, you can do everything in your power to try to get a certain outcome, but you can't ultimately control the outcome. Like, you have to let go at a certain point and let the cards fall where they may. And to me, that was really freeing because I had lived my whole life thinking that if I didn't control the outcome and I didn't have the outcome that I wanted, that it was my personal fault and I should have done things differently. But I just. I don't know, it's like, nice to know that, like, other people also have this struggle and have realized that at a certain point, yeah, you can try. You can work on a political campaign super duper hard, and then come election day, they might pick the other guy. And that's just part of life. And so I try to remind myself of that. So I recently had a situation with Amazon where, like, my order page was, like, messed up and there wasn't enough stock or something. And it was like, this book will ship in one or two months. And, like, I emailed my editor, I emailed my publishing team, of course, and I was like, hey, can you get more stock over to Amazon? But that's all I can do. I cannot, like, undo this. And I slept super well that night and did not think about it again because I literally cannot change what Amazon is doing at all. All I can do is email my publishing team. And I don't know, there's so many things in life like that that I've applied it to.

[John R. Miles]

And one of my favorite aphorisms is, it's better to ski than to be skied. I'd rather blaze the trail than follow someone else in their footsteps. And that's one of the key core beliefs that I have. And it goes back to why I took all those positions, because I always thought I could blaze my own trail and do it in a way that I could create my mark in how I wanted to change things. Well, Olga, it has been such an honor to have you. If you had a single takeaway from our conversation or for someone who's reading your book, what would it be?

[Olga Kazan]

It would be that not to get too attached to what you think your personality is, because it can still change. And that might be a good thing.

[John R. Miles]

Passion struck listeners. Pick up your copy of me. But better the science and promise of Personality change. Olga, I know they can find the book everywhere. If they want to read more of your articles, learn more about you, where's the best place that they can go?

[Olga Kazan]

Yeah. So I have a substack about personality change@olga hasan.substack.com and my last name is spelled K H A Z A N. For anyone who's listening to this and is like, how do I spell that? I'm also a staff writer for the Atlantic, which [e-mail] thank you so much.

[John R. Miles]

For joining us and thank you for making the introduction.

That's a wrap on today's conversation with Olga Kazan, and it's such a fitting chapter in our decoding humanities series. Here are a few key takeaways I hope you sit with this week. First, being weird doesn't make you broken, it means you're honoring your inner compass. Second, the pain of exclusion can forge resilience and help you become who you.

Were meant to be.

And lastly, true belonging isn't about fitting in, it's about being seen, valued and accepted as you are. This conversation reminded me that mattering isn't.

About being liked by everyone.

It's about aligning with your truth and letting the right people find you there. If today's episode spoke with you, share it with somebody who needs this as a reminder. And if you haven't yet, please leave a five star rating on Apple or Spotify. It's the best way to help more people find these conversations and rediscover their own sense of mattering. You can go deeper by visiting passionstruck.com for the full show notes or watching the entire conversation on the Passionstruck YouTube channel at John R. Miles. And if you haven't yet, join our free [e-mail] for companion reflections and also getting journaling prompts. Coming up next in Decoding Humanity, I'm joined by Robert Glaser, number one Wall Street Journal bestselling author and host of the Elevate podcast. We'll explore how to build teams and organizations that thrive without sacrificing meaning, well being or trust. Robert shares a blueprint for scaling culture, developing leaders, and creating workplaces where people can bring their best selves and leave.

Better than where they came.

[Robert Glaser]

I am very outcome oriented. I believe in KPIs and dashboards and we had one of the first remote companies and my friends before COVID were like how do you know people are doing work? And I'm I don't know. They all have the same number of clients. We have two key metrics. Is the program doing well and they're staying retained and the client is happy. So if somehow they have five clients and their program is doing well and it's growing and they figured out how to do that in 10 hours a week, God bless them. Like they're doing the right thing. We just always had an outcome orientation.

[John R. Miles]

Until then, lead with intention, embrace your uniqueness and as always, live life. Passion struck.

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[Olga Kazan]

Thanks. Have a good one.

[Shopify Narrator]

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