D (5:21)

I am absolutely thrilled Today to have Dr. Daniel Ellenberg join us on Passion Struck. Welcome Daniel, how are you doing?

C (5:28)

Good. Good to be with you, John.

D (5:30)

Well, we've been talking about doing this for months, so I am so glad we're finally able to do this discussion and we're going to dive deep today into the concept of strength with heart. Daniel, your work spans psychology, leadership, and men's emotional development. But before we get into frameworks and other things like that, what moment first made you realize that the traditional model of masculinity was failing men?

C (6:00)

Probably when I was a teenager because I was very aware then as somebody who was Fairly athletic, but not a star in a way. I was always, like, in the mix, but not on top of the pile in a way, and was just aware of hierarchy and proving masculine, proving how tough you were, improving how competent and on top of things you were. And that there was just this way that I would have side conversations with guys who said, yeah, I feel some insecure. I feel like, because I was always somebody who would be curious and be willing to ask the questions that most people wouldn't ask. And people would say things to me on the side, but it would never really come out in a larger format. And I could see some of the deleterious impact of having to keep everything close to the chest that in any way involves one's doubts, one's insecurities. And one of the things I've noticed as I got older and wound up becoming a psychologist is that it's hard being human. I knew that then, but it's very hard being human. And it's baked into the human system that there are threats. And we don't have to look that far to see people feel threatened quite often. And then what do you do with threats? Unmitigated threats will automatically trigger defensive reactions. And I actually think that's part of the biggest difficulties that people have is a tendency to get defensive by not being able to listen and being able to have to push and prove something. And so I've just seen that in terms of the male side of things, this thing about having to prove masculine, I have to get my fingers in the race. Prove masculinity is really a big problem, and I'd like to live in the world. People don't have to prove that you matter. I know that for you, John, mattering significance is just a core part of your orientation, which to me is hugely important, which is why I'm interested in you and your work. If the only way that you can matter in a way is to prove your masculinity, that's a very ineffective and vulnerable way of living. And ironically, that trying to hide vulnerabilities by proving masculinity. But it's ultimately and ironically the most exposed you can potentially be. Because improving masculinity, it can always be disproved. And a lot of guys live like that. Just one last thing, and then we'll jump into other things. There's a very well accepted theory in male gender which is called precarious manhood. That's two Florida professors who were the ones who came up with this theory. And it's very Simple. And it was pretty obvious in a way. But it's basically that guys grow up learning that they have to prove their masculinity and that proving masculinity is difficult to do. And if you have done it, supposedly it's easy to lose and it must be done in public. So there's something about that, these public displays of, like, masculinity that are a big part of the difficulty. You don't have to look that far in the world and see how much of our world is predicated on guys trying to prove how tough they are, how strong they are. It's like, great. I think it is important to be resilient and strong. So I'm not doubting that in the least. If that's the way that you wind up mattering, it leads to a life of disconnection.

D (9:47)

Well, when do you think, since we're talking about mattering, when do you think that men or boys start internalizing this false sense of who they need to be to feel accepted by the world around them.

C (10:06)

As a very emotional person? John I feel sad just even thinking about it, frankly, because it's early, probably like 3, 4. If you look at early childhood development, little boys are at least as emotionally reactive as little girls, meaning that they cry probably more often than little girls. They want to be held, they want to be nurtured, they want to connect. And then they start learning these messages from the culture that it's just not very male. You don't need mommy, you know, be independent. It's going to get pushed toward premature independence. And there gets shamed for showing vulnerability. A bit like crying. Big boys don't cry. These messages are so powerful. And little kids on the playground who are just already doing this thing, I'm a big boy. I don't need this. I don't, you know, and because when they show that, if you really look at how people learn, they learn to avoid pain. That's pain. To get shunned or shamed in some way and to gain pleasure. It's more important to avoid pain then gain pleasure, as it turns out. So we're talking about super early. And that's what happens with male relationships. They wind up super connected. They hold their friends and they're told that it's gay. Uphold your boy to want to love your friends and things. It's crazy. And so we see the crisis of connection really beginning three, four years old. And you can see these boys. Naomi Way has written about this. There's a lot of research. Judy Chu, there's a lot of research out here about how these boys really become armored, defended against more vulnerable feelings. And the problem is that it is through vulnerabilities, through our humanness, that we are able to connect with other people. And by saying, I'm not like that, I don't feel fear. I don't feel sadness. It's basically like I don't feel. Right. You don't feel those things. You don't feel it. I feel anger because anger is a preferred and acceptable male emotion for men. Not all, but it is what leads us to feel isolated. And we can go a lot into the statistics about what's happening with boys and men, but it's an ugly picture what's emerging out there, and it's very sad, and it's preventable.

D (12:38)

Yeah. So a few weeks ago, I had Dr. Zach Seidler from Movember, who I know you. You know him personally on the show. And one of the most startling statistics he brought up since we were talking about men's isolation is that from what he shared and you shared with me, one out of seven men today have no close friends, no single best friend. And that, to me, is extremely alarming. Do you think that number is potentially understated?

C (13:10)

Yes, I do. I mean, so when I hear one out of seven, I think that's wrong, frankly. And again, John, we really have to clarify what exactly a close friend means. Like, what somebody may call a close friend is someone who they go drinking with. So I don't have that in my definition as a close friend. I have a close friend as somebody who. Who you can be intimate with. And I don't mean intimate in a sense, like sexuality. I think of intimacy as the phonetic of like, into me seek, so that you actually allow other people, in this case other guys to see into you. Beauty, warts and all. And so it is through that I have difficulties. I may have a divorce, potentially. I may lose a job. Life is. Is challenging, and everyone has difficulties. And when we start looking underneath the surface, people suffer. People can be joyous also. I'm not. I don't want to paint a picture like everyone's just suffering and in pain all the time. But pain is a part of life, and if you have to hide that all the time, that's a problem. And this is part of what leads guys into drug addiction and the fentanyl crisis, which hits men much more than women. I don't know what the statistics are. Very little. It's pretty significant. Males commit suicide at four times the rate as females. And So I don't think one out of seven is accurate there. And again, it's definitional. What is a close friend?

D (14:47)

Yeah, I had what I consider two close friends who ended up taking their own lives. And I had been with them both days before the act happened. And the one gentleman, Tim, was this type of person. He was the guy who. You could call it 2 o' clock in the morning, 3 o' clock in the morning, 8 o' clock in the morning, it didn't matter. He was always there for you. You could tell him anything. He wasn't judgmental. He was just a good. A really good friend. And what was really hard for me in that scenario is when he was hurting the most. He didn't bring it up to me nor any of our other friends, and felt that jumping off the equivalent of the Golden Gate Bridge here in, in Tampa was the way to deal with it. And then I had another really good friend, Vincent, who was a former NFL player, pro ball, wide receiver, who I met with days before he took his own life. And he was telling me a little bit that he was having issues with his wife, but he didn't tell me that he was experiencing CTE and was having all kinds of ramifications. How do we get men to open up more? Because these are two scenarios where I think in both cases there was help that could have been given to these gentlemen had they just asked for it, but they never did.

C (16:17)

Well, first of all, I'm sorry, I didn't know that, John. So I'm sorry to hear that, because that's got to be incredibly painful for you and what a hopeless or helpless feeling you must have had afterward to feel like it was so close. Why didn't you talk to me? Like this is.

D (16:33)

Yes, exactly.

C (16:35)

Creation and pain of that is difficult because I. I've not lost any friends to suicide, but I have friends who have. So I've had conversations about that. So it's just to start off with, that's tough stuff in terms of how to deal with it. This is part of the early childhood conditioning. Don't tell people, don't reveal that you're hurting. Keep it to yourself. Be stoic. Stoicism is fine, by the way. Sometimes it's misunderstood these days, but if it's only to yourself and not showing anything and withholding all that, that's a major problem. But I do think that in terms of how do we deal with this, it starts early in life and it starts with really that we give men the latitude to have an emotional life it's absurd to even be talking like this, like you need that. But I think that's true. They're giving them. It's fine to be somebody who has difficulties in life and that a healthy approach to dealing with difficulties is compassion. And compassion is not something that has been seen as a particularly male trait. This is an area I've looked at quite a lot in self. Compassion, forget about it. Like, really, you're hurting. Buck up. Grow a pair, man up. All these lessons that guys learn, teach them to not speak about when they're really hurting like that. So you can imagine that your friends have this. Like your first friend who was very open to hearing from you or other people about when you were having difficulties. But not so much for him, he had it. One side of the equation, which is he knew it was. For him, it was fine that other people could be hurting and he would be a good ear before them, a good ear and a good heart, but not him. Like, somehow he's left out of that dance. And why is that? What did he learn? I don't know the guy, obviously, I don't know what his father was like, but he probably got these messages in his family, school, his church, about being strong, tough, stoic, and it takes resonance. I have a term, I call it psycho osmosis. You know, how we learn, how we absorb through the permeable membranes of the brain, these messages, the culture. And once inside, they take a resonance and they become part of our character or characteristics. And so as much as some part of them would want to reach out and say, john, I'm hurting. I need to talk. It's like I can't get it out that there's this stop gap there. And this is part of the pain. I mean, part of what I did for 40 years is I led weekly men's groups where guys would come in and they would really talk about their lives, beauty, warts and all. And so we weren't just looking at what's wrong. It's like for people to credit for their accomplishments and their goodness and their decency. Yes. Honor what's beautiful in you. And also to deal with and be open and transparent with where you have difficulty, which goes against some cultural messages. And so the cultural messages are really powerful. Frankly. I'm 72 years old, and I've been at this sort of looking at the men's stuff 47 years ago, a long time ago, I thought things would be very different right now than they are. This is a virus that seems to have a very persistent afterlife.

E (20:21)

Before we continue, I want to pause for a moment. Conversations like this often surface a quiet realization. Cultural scripts shape how we matter, but heart determines how we connect inside the ignited life. Our substack each episode in the umatter series is paired with guided reflection prompts designed to help you reclaim authenticity without rejecting strength or surrendering your voice. This week's prompts focus on noticing where man up has replaced openness, identifying when performance has crowded out presence, and clarifying how you show and receive mattering in your closest relationships. You can explore them all@theignitedlife.net as we move toward February 24th, I want to share something very close to my heart. My new children's book, you, Matter Luma, launches that day, a story designed to help children understand intrinsic worth before the world teaches them to measure themselves by toughness or proof. You can now pre order umatter Luma at Barnes and Noble. Your support helps bring this message of mattering to the next generation. Now, a quick break from our sponsors. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. You're listening to Passion Struck on the Passion Struck Network. Now back to my conversation with Daniel Ellenberg.

D (21:37)

I just want to quantify, Daniel, something that you just said because you said you have facilitated men's groups for four decades. When I think about that's well over 10,000 hours, right? That's a lot of time from you observing these different men that you've interacted with. When do you find men finally stop performing? Because I think a lot of us are wearing a mask and start telling the truth.

C (22:06)

Great question. We look for others to show up in a different way. What would happen in groups is that guys would come in and they'd be watching like, what are the rules here? What can I say? Am I going to get tossed out if I show something and you know that some part of them is there because they want to connect. No question that connecting is a core motivation for being there. And then they'll watch somebody who's been in the group, say, express something that's quite vulnerable and get supported and acknowledged for that. And if you're watching this and going, wow, the rules here are different. I grew up with if you show something like that, just pipe down, cut it off, keep it in. But actually here the principles and the rules are different. And so they feel like they're on a different planet in a certain way and observing it. And they see that when that somebody is vulnerable and has the courage to open their emotional kimono, so to speak, that they're acknowledged for that and good on you. And that they. It leads toward a deeper connection and that they have a sense of brotherhood and familiarity there, that it's incentivizing to do that. And it builds over time, and it also leads to people being able to call each other. I don't like calling out, but I like the term calling in. Like saying, God, dude, you're, like, being really reactive and defensive. What's really going on here? And to me, that's part of the deal, because on some level, we get back to mattering that when somebody is willing to, in a heartful way, be able to call someone out and say, I'm doing this because I care, not because I'm trying to shame you, that's very powerful. And it's saying to the other person, you matter. And I'm doing this because you matter. For some reason, I was thinking about John wooden, the famous UCLA basketball coach whose team has won 10 national championships in 12 years. And one of the things he said about a really good coach is a coach is someone who can give criticism without causing resentment, which I like. We need feedback. I know that the defended and reactive person I was, not that I don't have any defenses of reactivity, I certainly still do, but who I was, I wouldn't be who I am without my brothers. And literally, over the years, I've had people call me in and say, daniel, come on, you're better than that. I'm feeling very emotional right now, I think, because in some way, I'm suffering from just observing what's going on in our country and the world. And it's just. It's not the love fest that I dream of. And I want men to be better. And it scares me, really, when I see some of the young men who are going into the dark reaches of the Internet and the manosphere and learning these. That somehow you have to control women and be in charge and be dominant. This is not a world of relationship at all like that. And I'm really concerned about it, frankly. So this is part of my own journey right now, is not leading men's groups anymore, but actually being more involved with trying to make a larger world difference on that front.

D (25:52)

You've written a lot about transcending limited aspects of traditional male roles. And when I think of some of your contemporaries who are out there talking about this a lot, I immediately think of Scott Galloway and Jonathan Haidt. What do you think they're getting right? And then what parts of masculinity do you think are misunderstood beyond what they're talking about, or do you think they have it all covered?

C (26:20)

Well, let's take Scott Galloway, for starters. I respect him. I don't know him personally. I have a great deal of respect for him. I think he's a straight shooter, and I think he's got a lot of things right, and he's got a lot of important messages I'm not convinced about. What guys need to do is provide, protect and procreate, which is a core message of his. I do believe in providing and protecting, and I certainly procreate, because we're not going to have a species if we don't do that. But I think that there are other things that have to. That are. I would accent more the courage to be vulnerable. I think he is quite vulnerable himself and willing to be courageous. So I don't think there's anything that I would say that he would necessarily disagree with, but I think I might accent something more than others in terms of Richard Reeves, who's become a household name for a lot of people these days. And I think that what he's doing is great. He's not a clinician, a therapist, a coach. He's a researcher, which is great. But he's actually made the case that is really important to make about how guys are suffering and we can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. By helping boys and men, we're not hurting girls and women. And this is the area that drives me, frankly, the craziest, this binary thinking. And I'm very frustrated by it. And why is there all this pushback about having services for boys and men these days? It's bizarre to me. And I think part of it has to do with a kind of binary thinking that if you're doing this for this, you're hurting this. It's like, really, if we're going to rise, we're going to rise together. And I think part of the problem is, as I think about this little cartoon I saw years ago, these two guys are on a little dinghy, and there's two holes in the back of the boat, and they're on the front of the boat. They're on a body of water. And one of them says to the other, thank God we're in the front of the boat. Well, hello, that ain't gonna help you. You may get a couple more minutes out of this, but that's not gonna help. And that's part of my concern. And I. Part of what I'm become increasingly interested in is really how do we bring men and women Together. I'm excited about all the work that's going on with men and boys and the work that's going on with girls and women. I'm not seeing men and women coming together and having the important conversations. There's still this kind of adversarial relationship. And there are a lot of women who. They don't trust men for many good reasons. I'm not saying that men have been lovely toward women, quite the contrary. And again, I'm not trying to put all men into one category, but there's a lot of resistance from a good amount of women about getting services for boys and men. And I'm really tuned into this, being involved with American Psychological association and some of the things that are going on politically. Like, why is there this resistance? Because I do think that there's a suspicion that when men get together, they're plotting against women. Now, that may be true for some men. I'm not doubting that some of these guys who are just hate women, haters and they just want to dominate women and like, what, Nick Fuente, is your body my choice? That's sick. Completely. But we really, I think, pay too much attention to these extreme voices on the left or right, and not enough to all the people who want more clingality and cooperation and compassion. And because they don't, the algorithms don't follow them. They're not as outrageous. Most of us want goodness in the world. We want positive relationships, we want love, we want safety, we want security. We don't want to hurt other people. But there are these extremes that get too much of the attention, and then everyone tends to think, or a lot of people think, well, that must be the way it is. But it's really not the way it is.

D (30:43)

Back during Mother's Day, we have recently moved to a new area in Tampa Bay. So I was out shopping for new churches, trying to feel for one that best fit me. And I happened to go to this service on Mother's Day, and it was a really interesting talk that the pastor did. He welcomed all the families with kids one to three up on stage, and they did a great ceremony. But then his message was completely directed at men in the room, and the room was overflowing this day. And he basically gave this message that we are outsourcing the role that we are supposed to be playing, not only from a spiritual sense, but from a parenting sense, from a partner's sense. And he said, it's like we think we're properly doing parental involvement when we drop our kids off to Sunday school, but then don't reinforce it any other day of the week. We do the same thing in our relationships where we think we're being a good husband or a good partner, but we're not showing up and playing our role, and we're creating a vacuum.

E (31:58)

Do you agree at all with what.

D (32:00)

He has to say?

C (32:01)

Yes, but when you say at all, I'd say yes. I think it's also important, and this may be rather controversial from what I'm going to say, but screw it. I think that there are a lot of women who don't want men to play more of a role, that a lot of women do want men to play more of a role. But I think it's important also recognize that there is a certain level of dominion that a lot of women have held in the hearth, in the home, being with the children that they relish. And they may not trust their husband or other men around the children on some level, but they're not necessarily supportive of that. There are a lot of women who are. Again, I'm not a big, broad, brushstroke person. I don't put all women in one category. All men. People are different in ways. I do think a lot of men do grow up in general, not learning about how to nurture, how to be there with their children, in a way, and they're just not steeped in the land of relationship. And that's part of, I think, what this pastor was speaking about, and I agree with that. I think that is a problem and that a lot of guys just need to, on some level, get some basic education around how do you be a good father, how do you be a good man? And how do you actually show up for other people in a heartful and also decisive way? You mentioned my work with strength, with heart. And part of the difficulty I see in general in the world is that we seem to split these things off. Like you're either strong or you're kind. It's insane somehow, if you're strong but you show care, that makes you weaker. Really? Yeah, I don't think so at all. But this is part of the difficulties that we're seeing in general that I see that some of it's changing and some of it has to do with when athletes will come out and will show a tender side of themselves. And I do think that there's a lot of ways that guys in general can be and are compassionate that isn't recognized as that. I was remembering, like in the Olympics, when the. The gymnast team, one of the Guys, I think there were five of them. One of them who was considered, like, the best on the horse, I think it was. And he fell off of it, and he was devastated. Proverbial head between the legs. And one of his teammates came up to him and they showed this, and he put his arm around him. I just thought that was a beautiful moment of showing compassion all the time. Even football players. Somebody goes down, everyone's there. A kicker misses a field gold when placeholder puts arm around him.

D (34:58)

Well, even recently, when John Harbaugh was let go by the Ravens, there have been a lot of reports, reports that so many of the superstars on the team came into his office crying, oh.

C (35:08)

Wow, I hadn't heard that.

D (35:10)

Yes. Showing the support that they had for him. So it's really powerful for me to see the symbolism of those types of acts, because you don't see it very often these days.

C (35:24)

I don't know if you've ever seen it that often, but I think you're seeing it more these days. And that's where I get heartened, when I see guys being able to show that side of themselves, which is really important. And I think that, again, I don't know everything that this pastor said to go back to that for a moment, but I think it's. I think it's a powerful message she was given, really. I just wouldn't want it to be a shaming message. And I don't know how he did it in a way, because you can call guys out in a way that's shaming and call them in a way that's supportive.

D (36:01)

I think what he was trying to say, and a little bit of it was shaming the way he preached. But I think what he was trying to say is, you can't yourself ever feel like you're gonna matter if you're absentee in making any of the loved ones around you feel like they matter. And if you're absent being a husband, if you're absent being the parent that your kids need, if you're absent being the spiritual head of the household, then what example are you setting by being an absentee person? And I know for me personally, that this was a difficult element when I became a parent, because my father had a very difficult upbringing. My grandfather, who I never met, was physically abusive to my father. He was a very bad drunk, and I think never showed my father how to parent. And so when I was growing up, and it was much better for my younger brother, but for me, many of the years, he was an absent parent. And he used to travel 230, 240 days a year during most of my upbringing. And I realized as My son was 1, 2, 3 years old, I was starting to follow into some of his patterns. And it was very difficult for me to not only realize it, but to correct it because we tend to gravitate towards the examples we're given. And I didn't want to be that type of parent, but it was very difficult to change that path. I'm so happy I have because both my kids are so much better as a result of it. But I think that's what that pastor was trying to say.

C (37:47)

Okay, that's totally fair. I'm curious. How did you notice that you were starting to follow in the footsteps of your father in a way that didn't feel right?

D (38:07)

I think part of it was just in the emotions and the way that my. My son would show disappointment toward me. And you could see it in subtle ways where he was pulling more and more away. I think if anyone isn't a parent and they have dogs, you probably see it in your pets when they come up to you and they want to be loved upon and you don't give them the attention that they want, and they put their head between their tail because you're not giving them the attention. I think kids give you the same type of subtle or not so subtle signals. And I just remember it hitting me, and I had to be really mindful about what it became a completely different paradigm shift for me. If I want my son to grow up to be the man that I hope he becomes, then the person he's looking at to learn that from is me. So I need to be the example of what he sees and what I want him to become somewhere down the line. And then it also becomes a conversation with their mother about the roles that we're going to be we're going to be playing. Meaning it can't always be the father who's the disciplinarian. Both of them have to play those roles or the child will never come to the person who's always doing the punishing and be vulnerable with them. So it took some give and take on all sides.

C (39:34)

Well, I think it says something about you as a person and as a man, that you were in touch enough with your emotions to be able to recognize that, because I can imagine, I'm pretty sure you can, of how many guys, they're so conditioned to be hard and harsh and like, just buck up, kid, and just close their hearts to their children. In this case, to their son that it wouldn't penetrate them in a way that would lead toward a. An attitudinal and behavioral change. And so for you, that wasn't the case. So there was something either in your nature or, or something that allowed you to see that and to respond to that.

D (40:23)

Yeah. And I'm not ever going to say I was a perfect parent and I had a very demanding career and there were times where that took too much precedence, especially as I got more senior. And I look back and there are definitely regrets I have, especially as my kids were getting older and I was getting more senior, that I'd like to have some do overs. But I think that's why we're best positioned to try to help the people we once were. So that's a big part of my message that I try to give out is I just did a solo episode that stop building an architecture of success and start building an architecture of significance. And that really starts with the connections that are closest to your heart. I don't know if you've ever come across the work of Dr. Steven Post, but he has this book called Pure Unlimited Love. And I happened to talk to him and then I talked to Mark Nepo and we both were talking about this topic of love and they both gave the same definition of what unlimited love really is. And that is when you are about to close your eyes for the last time. Who, who are the people that you want to look at that one last moment that you have? And that's really a moment of unlimited love. But I don't think we approach love in our lives with that intentionality, so to speak.

C (41:53)

No, but one thing, if I may note here, which I'm going to, is that when I acknowledged you about that, you saw that, you responded to that, you were very quick to say, well, I could have been better. And I was. I wasn't perfect. I wasn't like that. I don't know how much you actually took in that. You did do a lot. And I'm saying that because I just see all the time with people is just a kind of much more of a focus on what you didn't do than what you did in a way. And I think that it's important to take in the good. Right. In this case. And no one's perfect. People screw up. I have no belief in the word perfect at all. I think it's a terrible word. And I think people hold themselves to absurd standards in a way, and we all mess up. The thing that really is most important in terms of parenting is when you mess up as a parent, acknowledge it. Working as a psychologist for as many decades as I did, I can tell you that the thing that drives people really up the wall is when the parent never admitted they were wrong, never apologized, never said, I yelled at you because actually I felt threatened at work and I was just totally stressed out and I took it out on you and I'm really sorry about that. But that's the kind of stuff that, where people feel like that wasn't fair. But I also think, like, it's because of me that you are suffering. And they take it on. Children take it on in a way that it's all their fault. And I'm a believer in just taking responsibility for, okay, you screwed up. I know you do that. So I'm sure you're not in that camp that I'm talking about at all. But it's also the importance of Zix acknowledging that, yes, there's goodness, and I was a much better father than my father was. Right. And take that in.

D (43:58)

Yes, because I, I do think this whole topic we're talking about masculinity is a generational thing and the gap is widening because as I guess masculinity starts to, to fade generationally, the gap keeps getting bigger and bigger. And so that's why I think in a lot of ways it's becoming harder to close. And it's so interesting to me to see the disconnection that men are also having from pursuing education, purpose and community. And what happens psychologically when men lose viable pathways to meaning?

C (44:42)

Great question. Nothing good, that's for sure. If you think about some of the prime drivers of life, purpose, meaning is way up there in there. And that's part of the problem with a lot of young guys is that they don't have a sense of purpose or meaning. What's the point? They look out in the world. And this is really the first time in American history for sure, where the next generation has less prospects than the one before and maybe the one before that. So it's always been, oh, well, my child and my children are going to have it easier than I had. Well, now it's actually quite not like that. It's to have a college degree. There's no guarantee of anything. And if you don't have a college degree, as a guy, boy, the prospects are awful. I have a colleague who is researching men who don't have college degrees. And it's a pretty bleak situation. And reality is that women, most people are heterosexual women are looking for guys who are upwardly mobile on some level, who actually can create resources and not going to fall on them or they want support and understandably. And if the possibilities are not out there to be successful, it's a bad thing. This is part of what's leading to this malaise and this. The manosphere type stuff and the fentanyl overdoses and this deaths of despair and suicide and all that kind of stuff. It's. It is a crazy crisis of meaning, a crisis of purpose there. And so I don't know really what the way out is. Certainly there's got to be more kind of social support. And I'm not thrilled with some of the attitudes in the United States around everyone's got to pull themselves up by the bootstrap and like we shouldn't have social support for. No, not at all. But I do think that it's all. And when speaking about education, there's just not a lot of enough focus on how do you create a life of meaning. Do you remember John, when you were in elementary school, middle school or high school, when they're saying let's have a course on how to create a sense of purpose and meaning in life. Yeah.

D (47:16)

A children's version of start with why.

C (47:19)

Right, exactly. And so what it. If I were to be able to pick do let's throw all the cards down the ground and pick up the deck in a way that's quite different than it is. I'd make a lot of changes. Education is one of those major areas world. We're not educating people well enough. Because if you think about education as preparation for living a full and good and decent life, we're not doing a good job. And certainly that's the case with guys who are just not oriented towards school. We're not getting really. I know we don't have time for this today, but there are so many problems with how with schools and education. I think about it in terms of the etymology. There's one part of education, so it's educare, which is to put in from without imparting knowledge to. And that's generally what we see in our educational systems. We're going to put this into you and somehow it's going to take resonance and you're going to be fine with that. But the other part is educere, which is to draw out from within. We don't do that at all. That's like completely absent from education. And how do you help people bring out what is within them? There's a Paul the apostle was Quoted and who knows if this is true or not. But it was like, if you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you. And I think that's really part of. Powerful words.

D (49:11)

Yes.

C (49:12)

Aren't they some powerful words? They are, they are. And I think about even the sense of mattering or purpose like people have within them, this creative impulse. Boys, girl, just, it's. It wants to create. And we can look in the world and a lot of things, incredible things have been created by human beings, no question about that. But I think each individual has something that wants to come out and wants to flourish, wants to thrive and needs the proper environment to nurture and help vitalize that which wants to. To come forth. And I don't think we're doing a very good job at creating those types of containers and context for that. And I think that we need to really have more groups, more education around. How do you actually nurture and support your own creative impulses?

D (50:13)

Yeah, I think that's a good line of thinking, Daniel, because what I think about all the time is when men feel that they're needed and they don't know that they matter, they don't get that reciprocity felt back to them. Then they replace it with all kinds of things that are causing them to feel numb and apathetic and unseen. And I think that's one of the biggest contagions that we're dealing with in the world right now.

C (50:44)

100% exactly as you put it.

D (50:49)

Why do you think these. I want to talk about social media and the types of people that men are gravitating towards for these people who have lost that gap. Why do these simplistic online identities that focus on like hyper dominance, grievance, contempt feel so appealing to these men who are struggling?

C (51:12)

It's certain. It's certainty. This is what you do. This is how you do it. See, these guys come across as hyper confident, never in doubt, never wrong. They know what's going on and they're going to tell you exactly what you need to do and just put on your big boy pants and just go out and do it and you'll be a confident, secure and successful man. On the one hand, that guys want to be confident, secure and successful, that's appealing. But certainty is absurd. And we always have to deal with ambiguity and complexity and the challenges that you're not really sure what to do at a certain point to acknowledge you're not sure, right. That doesn't mean you're insecure or that you're weak. It means that you're actually seeing that there are so many circumstances that are. You're just not sure about. So if you can actually start to learn and listen to yourself more and go inward and feel what feels right, a kind of intuition there, that is something that is only generated from within. Obviously you're going to be taking in outer resources and you want to talk to other people and listen, be open to feedback. Right? Because that's part of how we populate our inner world is through the outer world. And we're dealing with that ongoing dynamic between inner and outer. These guys on the Internet are just telling you just do this and you got have a con. And that's appealing. And wouldn't that be nice if it were that simple? Just do A, B and C and everything will be fine. But it turns out that it's not. What is it though? For every complex problem, there's a solution that's simple, neat and wrong. And that's part of the difficulty is that we're living in an increasingly complex world and people don't know what to do. It's freaking scary. It's destabilizing. And we're living in an increasingly destabilized and destabilizing world. And simple solutions, they're lovely ideas and just be tough, be strong and go back to that. There's something that's appealing about that. And women want much more from men now than they used to. You can be provided protector, procreator, as many times in history. And that worked. That's the way it worked. It was fine because that's where we were from our evolutionary history, but that's not where we are right now. It's a very different world and it's a very confusing world. And I think that we need to really be much more focused on how to develop self knowledge or selves knowledge as it were, because we have different aspects of ourselves and be able to draw on that inner world and to be able to have groups of, of people who you can actually talk with and explore with. And what do you think about that? I see the world so differently now than I used to and not because I've come up with any great insights myself. Some perhaps, but most of it's been through the learning from other people and being open to that. I know that for you in your podcast and in your work, you're teaching people, you're giving people opportunities to learn more about themselves. And to really find a way to create a life of mattering. Because you've come to realize, and I totally agree with you on this, that if people don't believe that they matter, nothing else matters.

D (55:04)

Well, I started to look at so many of what I'm now calling the symptoms that we're naming in society, the loneliness epidemic, people feeling burned out, people feeling hopeless, whatever it is, all of those, when I started to look at it, they all connect back to the feeling of antimatter.

C (55:25)

Yeah.

D (55:25)

And that's why these things are happening. So. So that's why this is so important to me. Because you've got to fix the human operating system to get this back in place. Because it's. We're systematically, from the time our kids enter school, to how social media operates today, to how the workforce operates, we're systematically taking bits of mattering away from people over the course of years. And it's like dys. You don't realize that you're depressed because it's happening so gradually that over time you reach a hockey stick where before you know it, you're experiencing severe depression. But it's happened over such a long period of time, same thing with burnout, that when it finally hits you, you don't realize all the micro moments that have occurred that lead up to it. And that's exactly what I think is happening.

C (56:23)

The frog doesn't realize it's being boiled.

D (56:26)

Yes, exactly.

C (56:27)

And so I agree with you completely. And if you think about mattering, you and I have talked a little bit about this, and I know you spoke with my wife about it. It's really the territory of significance. Significance and mattering are basically the same. And when you think about early childhood development, that little being comes into the world. Tabula rasa. Nothing's what. Yeah. You ever been around a little big? I don't. They're like, you just can't, like, really orient. And so. And they have to learn somehow that they matter. They matter enough that people care about them. They're giving them, they're getting resources, they're attending to them. They. When your kid comes up and grabs you by the. Don't bother me now. I'm doing work. Right. That's a statement that you don't matter. What I'm doing is more important. You're not important because underneath mattering significance, in a sense, like, you're important. Like you. You deserve to exist. And so many people that go through their entire lives and feel like they. I don't even deserve to be here. And it's like, how do you show people that they matter? And part of my always concern is we just ignore other people. Just don't walk past them, don't acknowledge, don't like. Like it's a sad state of affairs, but again, it really has to do with you either part of the problem or you're part of the solution. And to be someone who gets out there and says, you know what? I'm going to show other people that they matter. Right. I'm going to be the kind of person who acknowledges other people and holds them to certain standards and tries to acknowledge that they, at a minimum, deserve to exist, exist, that they're not someone just to ignore or disregard or just shun or push off to the side. But it's about how do we expand to include other people rather than how do we contract to exclude them.

D (58:31)

Couldn't agree more. Oh, I want to. Before we have to end, I want to talk about strength with heart a little bit because I know this is near and dear to your heart. And I'm going to bring Mark Nepo up again because in my interview with him, we were exploring his new book, the Fifth Season, but I we've probably spent a good 10 minutes of him talking about why he feels that the most critical thing we need to do and what life has told him is we need to live with an open heart, which I thought tied directly into a lot of your message. And I know that you really chose, challenged the false binary that men must choose between strength and compassion. Why do you think that framing is so damaging? And what does real strength look like when it's fully integrated with heart?

C (59:25)

You leave the small questions for the last ones. Right.

D (59:27)

Like we built up to this point.

C (59:30)

That's great. Well, I'm going to get political for a second, probably with some level of temerity, but I, I can't help myself. So I think about politically how on the left side of things, which it seems like I'm on the right as I'm looking at this, it's like guys are being told that strength is bad. It's associated with power over and dominance. And so the best thing guys can be is not an, you know, and be an ally to women and just be nice kind of thing because it's seen as like the male side of powers always leads to a domination and just tamp it down. And I see this in more liberal corners there. I'm not a fan of that mentality. And then on the right side, it's just be strong, be tough. There's nothing wrong with you, you're perfectly fine, and just that they're just shaming you on the left, and there is some shame not going on the left. So I'm not doubting that. But I don't think that's the answer either. There needs to be some integration of strength and heart where you're actually your backbone. It doesn't mean, by the way, that if you're heartful, you know that somehow you are a pushover or that you always give people what they want, or that you always are lackey in some kind of way. It means that you are. You have a sense of direction, purpose, right? If I do leadership work, and so I don't think a good leader is someone who just rubber stamps what somebody else thinks and feels at all. Not in the least. You have to have a sense of your North Star and where you want to go and how do you lead in a way where you're supporting people to step up on the one hand and go for what feels right and be open to feedback. And so I think that if you're strong and heartful, you have a sense of direction, you have a sense of purpose, you have a sense of inner strength, and you're flexible enough to know that you can shift your opinions if the facts change. I think about Keynes, the economist, who said, I believe in changing my opinion when the facts change. What do you do, sir? Because a lot, because some people have this idea about strength, is that you just hold your guns no matter what. The reality is, in a complete flexible world, you don't have enough information all the time at all. And so something else comes in and you're flexible enough and you're fluid enough to be able to shift with that new information. There's an old saying that the bamboo is stronger than the oak, that the bamboo, it maintains its integrity, but it can move when circumstances change. I have a lot of oaks on my part. Oaks are lovely and everything, but they're tight. They don't move. And I think a lot of guys learn that strength is being immovable, but that's not. I don't think that's true. I think that the strongest people are people who can have the center, that have a sense of their own core. They have a belief in themselves, and they're willing to shift when someone has given them a different way of orienting where they go. You know what? I was seeing it this way, but that actually makes sense because they're actually in touch with a more emotional part of themselves. And I think that guys who are only tight, they're pushovers in a way. They're very reactive. They're ready to fight. They're ready to hold their ground in a way. But what are they actually holding? They're really holding onto their egos. And the ego is very fragile. Self with a capital S is much stronger. And that is something that is not predicated on being right and always being in control, but actually is really seeing the bigger picture and is really a part of life and not trying to stand out as Mr. Dominance, you know, there. But actually is able to be fluid. And we see psychological flexibility. Being able to be shifting. It doesn't mean not having a center. It doesn't mean being a pushover. It means being open, open to feedback. And that's part of what creates relationship, that kind of openness where, okay, I feel you and I can. I'm going to shift based on what you're saying and how I'm experiencing you. And so I know that my work with men, when I look at the strength of harm, always you can have your ground. It's very important that you have your ground. And there are ways of really working with that that allow you to become a more expanded and really a more powerful and clear person by being open.

D (64:48)

Daniel, I thought I would tell you after I put some thought to it, what strength means to me, because I think it. It coincides with many of the things that you just said. I to me, strength without heart equals control, and heart without strength equals collapse. So when I think about strength with heart, it equals regulated power in service of connection. It means boundaries and compassion, agency and vulnerability and leadership that stabilizes instead of trying to dominate. That's.

C (65:22)

I have to on that. I'm going to have to get this. I really like the way you put that, John.

D (65:28)

Yeah. Because I think what you said about open strength with heart is the ability to stay open without becoming unprotected in many ways.

C (65:36)

What if there were nothing to defend?

D (65:39)

Yes, exactly.

C (65:40)

Which is not to say that there aren't things to defense. I'm not saying that having defenses is bad or wrong. It's appropriate at times, but I think a lot of times people go through lives always being defended. Right. And so there's this whole territory of safety versus threat. Friend or foe, they're always in foe. This is a foe. It could be a potential foe. This is a potential threat. And so they're armored all the time. And when you're armored all the time, there's no flow. There's really ultimately no Connection. And I'm going to be doing a whole nine month course on Strength with Heart for guys coming up at the end of the year. And we're really focused on a little bit differently. We have nine different guideposts of Strength with heart which are not things that you should do, but they're things that if you live by these particular ways of orienting life tends to go better. I see a lot of guys who are strong and heartful, but I don't think on a larger cultural level it exists out there. Part of my own sense of mission is how do we actually change the paradigm of guys? Because the paradigms are really what's most important in terms of our maps and our lenses, in terms of seeing and apprehending the world. And we really need something new and different because we're at a point on this planet where I think we're either going to destroy ourselves or we're going to reorganize at a higher level of complexity. The jury's out right now and hopefully with your work, John, and putting your work in the world and what I'm doing, what a lot of other people are doing, archneepo and you can go on and on. There are a lot of people, people who see the need for this new paradigm, that we need to birth this new paradigm in order to, at a minimum, survive, but certainly to thrive.

D (67:38)

Daniel, I have two last questions for you. For a man who's stayed with us this far in the conversation, listening, who recognizes himself in the strength at all costs model, what's one small non threatening shift that can begin real change for him?

C (67:57)

Find someone and talk about your how you feel strong in yourself and how you doubt yourself. Be more open, take more risks. We tend to see courage. Courage is actually one of the strength with heart guideposts tend to see courage as the willingness to run into a burning building, which it is courageous. I'm not doubting that. But there's a courage that I don't think people tend to think about, which I call interpersonal courage, which is the willingness to be to share beauty, warts and all about yourself as openly as possible with at least one other person, ideally in groups, but certainly one other person. It's part of why people go to therapy, go into counseling or coaching in some way that they can disclose to others. And it turns out that willingness to disclose to others is actually part of what leads people to develop more self awareness. And self awareness is deeply connected to leadership and positive relationships. It's actually one of our guideposts also is awareness or noticing. And so I would say go out, take some interpersonal risks and have the belief in yourself that even if it doesn't go well, you're going to survive. It's not a survival issue for you, but you need to do this in order to bring your insights into the world. And the way you bring your insights into the world is through relationships with other people. So that's one thing I would say and I think another is that the willingness to look into yourself and to recognize that you have strengths also. I think part of the reason why I was saying when I said to you earlier about hey, that's cool, that you essentially were to be a good father in that regard. And when you're saying, well, it wasn't perfect, that kind of thing, I wanted you and this isn't like this is common, so I'm not trying to quote, call you out at all on this is to say, yes, I do have strengths and I have done good things. I think a lot of times people are just so miserly with themselves around just acknowledging what is, what's cool about them and what's good, you know, so this is not about taking some self inventory about all the horrible things and everything like that. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about being a measured about this and being judicious and being able to say this is. These are positive things about me. These are not so positive things about me. What can I do to make a difference? And it turns out that one of the best things you can do is to be in relationships with other people in a very, in an open and transparent way, but finding the right people to do that with. And sometimes you trust someone and you're wrong, but that's the courage part. And you go like, how do I learn from this? And how do I course correct. Okay, that didn't work. But don't give up. I've seen so many people I show. I talked to somebody once and he chained me and I'm never gonna do it again. Come on, seriously, you're gonna give up that easily? No, don't do that, don't do that. Stand up for yourself and stand in yourself and just go, I'm going to keep pushing forward no matter what and not. Don't give up.

D (71:32)

Thank you for that, Daniel. And I had this last question. If you had the opportunity to redefine masculinity in a single sentence for the next generation of boys, what would you want them? What would you want them to know about strength, heart, and who they're allowed to be.

C (71:50)

I would want them to be more interested in being a whole and integrated person than to be seen as masculine. I don't. It's interesting. This word masculine is something I've. John, you can't imagine how much time I've spent thinking about this, about toxic masculinity or healthy masculinity. Masculinity. And I hear it all the time. And there's a part of me that goes, I wish we didn't even have the word. Like, I wish that weren't even. That didn't even exist. Like, guys didn't have to prove something about masculinity. Your mask, whatever that means, it's fine. See, part of the difficulty is that there are words that are considered to be or traits are considered masculine, independent, tough, strong. Take note. These are masculine traits. Feminine traits are nurturing and kind and compassionate and being able to list. And so that's part of the problem is that we call these traits masculine or feminine. And I don't think that's healthy. I think that really what I want to see is a world where women can have the same. All those traits. They can be. Be aggressive, they can be confident, they can be things that are seen as masculine. Men can be nurturing and kind and compassionate and do things and be, in a way, their ways are seen as feminine. And so I would want to really deconstruct it from the beginning and question, is it you're trying to be masculine? I know from I feel male, whatever that means. I don't feel I'm a guy. I've always been very guy ish, whatever that means, in a certain way. I like sports. I think women like sports too, right? So I don't. I think that we limit ourselves by trying to fit ourselves into these little boxes that are called masculine or feminine or this or that. So I want to. I'm in a different kind of world where people can be more expansive. So I may not have answered your question in a way that you were looking for, but that's how I see it.

D (74:01)

Well, Daniel, I loved having you here today. For people who want to learn more about what we've been talking about, where are the best places for them to learn more about you and your work?

C (74:11)

Well, you could write strengthwitheart.com and there's also. For my leadership work, there's rewire leadership.com and my email is deacon danielewireleadership.com and we will be having some different workshops coming out around this provides. But I will tell you, Tom, part of my newer inspiration is to really bring men and women together and have more meaningful conversations because I am heartened by all the work that's going on with boys and men these days. I'm starting to feel like it's a crowded field in a way, which is great, but what is a very uncrowded field is really bringing men and women together, and I think we really need to be doing that more. Part of my kind of newer thinking, and I have a partner who was actually one of the founders of Men Living, which is a great organization for men. It's really about bringing men and women together to have these meaningful conversations, which I think we need to do now. The other thing is, I'll send you information. If you do, contact me at the free conference we have coming up June 12, which is called Young Guys Thrive, which is going to be focused on how do we help young guys thrive and not just get by and really look at the challenges and the opportunities for young guys these days. Because they're the future, right? And if we're going to have a paradigm shift, they're going to be part of it big time. So I'm hoping that in my old age, I can help inspire them to aspire to be better and to be strong and heartful men. As you are, John. And I want to just acknowledge you for the work you're doing and the heart and the strength that you show in doing this. Because I know it's not easy all the time, all the time to keep doing this and doing this work and to be putting out your good work in the world. Good for you. So thank you for being you and doing the work you're doing in the world.

D (76:20)

Thank you so much, Daniel. It was such an honor to have you today and I hope you have a wonderful weekend ahead of you.

C (76:26)

Thank you.

E (76:27)

That brings us to the close of today's conversation with Daniel Ellenberg. If this episode stayed with you, it's likely because it touched something familiar. Navigating a world that demands proof of strength while quietly wondering where your full humanity fits. Here are three reflections you might carry forward. First, strength without heart equals control. Heart without strength equals collapse. Real power lives in their integration, regulated, open and in service of connection. Second, mattering is signaled through vulnerability. The people and cultures around us communicate significance through whose pain is allowed to be seen and who's ashamed into silence. And third, authenticity restores agency. Presence returns the moment we stop performing and start showing up Beauty, warts, doubts and all in the relationships that matter most. Daniel said it plainly. If the only way that you can matter is to prove your masculinity, that's ultimately the most exposed you can be today is an invitation to lay that proof down. If this conversation stirred something in you, maybe a memory of a friend who never asked for help, or a moment you held back your own pain, share this episode with one man in your life who might need to hear it a brother, a son, a colleague, or even yourself. Sometimes the simplest act of mattering is saying, I see you and I'm here to continue the work. Visit theignitedlife.net for episode reflections. Watch the full conversations on YouTube at John R. Miles or Passion Struck clips and explore Intention Driven apparel@start mattering.com in our next episode, we go even deeper into that instinct with philosopher Rebecca Neuberger Goldstein and her new book, the Mattering Instinct, exploring why the longing to matter may be as fundamental to being human as reason itself.

F (78:12)

We are so different by temperament. Belief systems, value systems, our culture, our talents, our passions, and that individuality all goes into how we respond to this shared motivation that we have, deep motivation that shapes our lives. And we none of us want to waste our life. We want to respond in the right way to this instinct. And we all make the distinction that there are right ways and wrong ways, and we want to in appeasing this longing and answering the question, do I really matter? That motivates all this.

E (78:52)

Until then, remember, you matter. Not because of what you prove, but because of who you already are. Your heart counts, your full self belongs, and the people who need your real presence most are waiting for exactly that. I'm John Miles, and you've been passion struck sa.