Passion Struck with John R. Miles
Episode 727: The Mattering Instinct: Why We Long to Matter | Rebecca Newberger Goldstein
Release Date: February 10, 2026
Episode Overview
In this profound and wide-ranging conversation, host John R. Miles welcomes philosopher and novelist Rebecca Newberger Goldstein, author of The Mattering Instinct. Their dialogue explores the deep-rooted human drive to feel that our lives matter—an inquiry sitting at the philosophical, psychological, and existential heart of what it means to flourish. Goldstein and Miles discuss the science, philosophy, and personal stories behind mattering, distinguishing it from connectedness, and examine how the longing to matter shapes individuals, cultures, and even the arc of history.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Origins of the Mattering Instinct
Rebecca's Personal Journey & The "Dream Team" Workshop
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Rebecca describes her lifelong fascination with "mattering," first surfacing while writing her novel The Mind-Body Problem.
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The concept grew in complexity, culminating in a 2019 workshop organized by psychologist Marty Seligman, attended by luminaries in positive psychology (Barry Schwartz, David Yaden, Roy Baumeister, among others).
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This collaboration between philosophers and psychologists helped propel Rebecca to write her book, rather than a scholarly paper, due to the breadth and human richness of the topic.
"I started to pay a lot of attention to other people and what it was that most mattered to them, improving to themselves, their own mattering. And a theory began to develop."
—Rebecca Goldstein [08:33]
2. Defining the Mattering Instinct: Human Uniqueness
Why Is This Instinct Uniquely Human?
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Goldstein roots the mattering instinct in the most fundamental laws of physics, particularly entropy (the natural drift of all systems toward disorder), stating: all living things resist entropy, but only humans reflect on why their own existence justifies this struggle.
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Humans are uniquely able to step outside themselves, observe their self-importance, and then question whether this level of self-concern is justified.
"We alone... can step outside of ourselves and see ourselves mattering and ask why? Why of all the things in the universe do I pay so much attention to this one thing?"
—Rebecca Goldstein [17:58] -
This sets up an existential burden and quest: to live so our self-attention is not arbitrary, but deserved.
3. The Difference Between Mattering and Connectedness
Why Do We Conflate the Two, and Why Does It Matter?
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While “connectedness” describes how we matter to others and our relationships (family, friends, community), “mattering” is fundamentally about our relationship with ourselves—the inward, existential justification of our own attention and life.
"Mattering instinct is something else. It's our relationship with ourselves. It comes from this existential moment... when we step outside of ourselves and interrogate ourselves..."
—Rebecca Goldstein [31:06] -
Goldstein draws a nuanced distinction: connection can sustain us, but does not in itself confer the deep inward sense of mattering that guards against despair or depression.
4. The Mattering Map: Four Primary Projects
How Do People Try to Matter?
Goldstein proposes four archetypal ways humans strive to fulfill the mattering instinct—each with the potential for flourishing or harm:
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Transcenders
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Ground their sense of mattering in serving something transcendent. Typically religious or spiritual ("I matter because God/Universe has a purpose for me").
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Example: Joan of Arc as a transcender who gives her life for her perceived divine role.
"The sense of mattering I've experienced [as a former believer] is very strong... I never doubted how much I mattered. I mattered to God..."
—Rebecca Goldstein [57:10–59:55]
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Heroic Strivers
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Mattering is tied to the pursuit of excellence in a chosen domain; the standards are internal and not about impressing others.
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Example: William James (philosopher/psychologist) wrestled with depression until he focused his life on philosophy/psychology.
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Story: Scott Harney, unpublished poet, who labored for mastery alone, not recognition.
"He worked just as hard and his poems are magnificent... That was his mattering project. It was not to win other people's applause."
—Rebecca Goldstein [62:51–64:08]
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Socializers
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Derive mattering from relationships, being needed or loved by others, or sometimes by gaining fame/attention from strangers.
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Example: The desire for fame as a (sometimes fragile) substitute for deep mattering.
"For socializers, it's the mattering to others that really satisfies the mattering instinct."
—Rebecca Goldstein [68:48–70:10]
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Competitors
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View mattering as zero-sum—mattering more must mean others matter less; can be individual or group-based (tribalism, nationalism).
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Example: Frank Meeink, former neo-Nazi skinhead, describes his old ideology as offering mattering through exclusion of others.
"For competitors, they think of mattering as zero sum. They are in competition with others as to their mattering."
—Rebecca Goldstein [72:31]
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Goldstein emphasizes that not all forms are inherently positive—each can inspire creativity/altruism or, if misdirected, atrocities.
5. The Perils & Promise of the Mattering Instinct
From Atrocities to Altruism: Why Mattering Matters
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The mattering instinct is behind both the greatest human achievements and the greatest evils. Mattering can produce altruism (Mother Teresa), innovation (scientific discovery), but can fuel tribalism, extremism, and atrocities (Hitler, genocides).
"The will to matter is stronger than the will to life itself. You can sacrifice your life if you think that your mattering demands that."
—Rebecca Goldstein [59:55] -
Goldstein proposes that we measure the worthiness of mattering projects morally and practically: are they "on the side of life, order, health, beauty, flourishing," or do they increase suffering, entropy, and decay?
"If we're living in such a way as to increase suffering... this is not a good mattering project. Even if it's working for you..."
—Rebecca Goldstein [78:40–81:11] -
She shares the moving story of a Chinese woman, impoverished herself, who rescued and raised over 30 abandoned girls. Her project multiplied life and possibility for generations—an example of ordering the world against entropy.
"She was entirely on the side of life, of flourishing. Here are generations now... who are alive because of her."
—Rebecca Goldstein [81:25]
6. Mattering's Vulnerability: Why Mercy Is Essential
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The longing to matter makes us vulnerable. Our projects may depend on others (romantic love, creative success, communal acceptance) who may not reciprocate or recognize our efforts. The world wounds us, and mercy becomes vital.
"...wherever there is human life, there is the quivering longing to matter that makes us vulnerable to being wounded by the world. And we should have mercy on one another."
—Rebecca Goldstein [85:02]
7. Living a Passion Struck Life
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For Goldstein, living passionately means a commitment to knowledge and love—honoring both one's drive for understanding and the ethical imperative to serve and connect with others.
"...my passion is also to love others and that is very hard sometimes. We are all extremely flawed... but I would say love and knowledge, these are my passions."
—Rebecca Goldstein [87:35]
Notable Quotes with Timestamps
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"Everybody needs to feel that they matter in the way that most matters to them. And the diversity creeps into that second half of the sentence, that there are just an abundance of ways in which we try to prove to ourselves that we matter."
—Rebecca Goldstein [08:33] -
"The poignancy of our life is captured by this longing that we have to matter. And I really want to ground it on solid science, going back to physics... all life is in resistance to entropy..."
—Rebecca Goldstein [16:49] -
"That brings us into the sphere of justification, of values, something entirely different under the sun. I think it's beautiful. I think it is what we mean when we talk about the intrinsic dignity of every human."
—Rebecca Goldstein [24:54] -
"Connectedness is how we matter to others... mattering concerns how we matter to ourselves."
—John Miles [37:19] -
"If our mattering project is such as to be on the side of life's struggle against entropy—that's good. But if it's increasing suffering... that's not a good mattering project."
—Rebecca Goldstein [78:40–81:11] -
"Wherever there is human life, there is the quivering longing to matter that makes us vulnerable to being wounded by the world. And we should have mercy on one another."
—Rebecca Goldstein [85:02]
Memorable Moments & Stories
- Goldstein’s Story of the "Dream Team" Workshop [08:33]
- William and Alice James: Contrasting responses to mattering, illustrating differences even within one close-knit family [46:00–53:32]
- Scott Harney’s Hidden Poetry: Devotion to artistic mastery without public recognition, a pure enactment of the heroic striver role [62:51–64:08]
- The Anonymous Chinese Mother: Saving children against the odds; a true "orderer" in the face of entropy [81:25]
- Frank Meeink: From violent exclusionary mattering to redemptive, ethical striving [72:31]
- Joan of Arc: The transcender’s sacrifice [59:55–60:04]
Timestamps for Major Segments
- [07:49] Rebecca Goldstein joins the discussion
- [08:33] The origins of Goldstein's mattering concept and the influential psychologist "Dream Team"
- [16:49] Defining the mattering instinct through physics: entropy and human uniqueness
- [24:54] Justification, values, and the inward burden of mattering
- [31:06] The crucial difference between mattering and connectedness
- [45:51] The story of William and Alice James and family dynamics of mattering
- [55:56] The four quadrants of the mattering map explained (Transcenders, Heroic Strivers, Socializers, Competitors)
- [74:45] The danger and promise of mattering: From atrocities to altruism
- [81:25] The story of the Chinese mother who rescued generations of children
- [87:35] Goldstein on living a passion struck life
Takeaway Reflections
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Mattering is an inward, moral relationship:
Belonging locates us in the social world, but mattering compels us to ask if our life is worthy of the attention we give it. -
Powerful and perilous:
This instinct can fuel both great care and great cruelty. The difference depends on whether our projects serve life, order, and flourishing—or perpetuate suffering and disorder. -
Entropy as a moral guide:
The deepest measure of a meaningful life is whether our actions create order and possibility, or accelerate decay and harm.
Conclusion
Goldstein and Miles offer a penetrating, compassionate, and accessible exploration of why mattering is central to the human quest for meaning. More than seeking to belong, we seek to justify ourselves to ourselves. This instinct for mattering—if understood and stewarded—can help us create lives of truth, clarity, and mercy, as well as foster greater empathy for both our own wounds and those of others.
"You matter. Not because of what you prove, but because of who you already are."
—John Miles [91:20]
Further Listening & Reading
- Goldstein’s The Mattering Instinct
- The “You Matter” series on Passion Struck
- For guided reflections: theignitedlife.net
- “You, Matter Luma” (Children’s Book): umatterluma.com
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