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- [00:00]
A
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B
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- [01:00]
C
I heard a piece of audio on these airwaves last week and I'm curious if one of Stroud's biggest defenses is actually his fault. We'll get to that here on Payne and Pendergast. I'm Luke Morrow in for Sean alongside Seth Payne. Appreciate you hanging with us here on a Monday. Hope you had a great holiday weekend. You can always join the show via the text line. Join the conversation 713-572-4610 at any time or also in the YouTube and Twitch chats as well. Appreciate some of the love for collective soul coming in on that text line. Thank you Seth. You guys got into this last week. This Greg Cassell audio of him talking about CJ Stroud and as I heard him talking about it, I'm curious if it almost reflects worse on CJ Stroud based off of something we keep defending him on. Now you obviously know you have forgotten more about football this morning alone than I'll ever know. So I do want to get your opinion or your thoughts on on my takeaway from this. But first let's just go back to the Cassell audio, the first cut talking about CJ Stroud and this new scheme that he's running here in Houston.
- [02:12]
D
CJ Stroud the last couple of years has been up and down. Now keep in mind his first year in the league he was in a Kyle Shanahan type offense with Bobby Slowik. Now in that offense, the quarterback has nothing to do with calling protections. And then they got off to a slow start his second year and they fired Slowik and they made a fairly significant change in approach, which has now continued. And they went more with a New England Patriots style of offense. And in the New England style of offense, the quarterback is responsible for setting protections. That's a major, major adjustment for a quarterback. It adds to the mental part of playing the position. And I've met CJ Stroud, he's a very intelligent young man. But when you have to make that change and it's a process and he'll get better and better at it, but I think it slowed down just his whole processing, and I think there were times where I thought he was indecisive playing the position and therefore was not as anticipatory as we saw him in his rookie season.
- [03:17]
C
So, Seth, tell me if I'm being unfair or if I'm just straight up wrong, but we always say so often like the offensive line wasn't good enough, which I agree with. But if Stroud is also the one handling the protections, and as Greg Cosell said, like, I didn't really do a great job of it, then doesn't the fault of the offensive line kind of fall into the responsibility of Stroud? Like we excuse some of his play because while the offensive line is very good, but isn't that also on the quarterback shoulders to. To try to figure some of that stuff out along the way?
- [03:44]
B
No, no, no. I think it's 100% it is. I think that what Cassell's point would be is that that's. But it's a lot for a young quarterback. And even though, you know, Stroud had said he had more command at the line of scrimmage when he was at Ohio State than he did in the first couple of years of the offense, it's just different doing it in college, especially when you have a dominant offensive line. I think the part about it, though, too, that you can't lose sight of is that it's not just Stroud that has to make a bunch of decisions based on the fronts he's seen in the coverages he's seeing. It's the receivers themselves and all the skill position players. And when I went back a couple weeks ago, I was looking at the Texans versus the blitz, and there was a clip from that first Jaguars game where Woody Marks was in protection, was supposed to chip the defensive end and then seep out. I'm guessing he was supposed to seep out as an outlet for CJ and you can see CJ kind of like looking, waiting for Woody Marks to be there for what would have been an easy dump off, but Woody Marks stayed in pass protection. Then you fast forward a few weeks later, and I was watching the Titans and it was when Davis Mills was in there. Woody Marks was in the exact same situation. Very similar blitz. He seeped out and Davis Mills dumped it to Woody Marks for like a 12 yard gain. And that's a. Okay. A rookie running back had a better feel for what he was supposed to be doing in the offense. Guys like Jaden Higgins got better at where they were supposed to be in the offense over time. Some of the offensive linemen got better at understanding their. Their role. So, yes, I think cj, you know, needs to be better at that whole process than he was last year. But it's. It's him being command of all 10 other guys on the offense and having them in the right spots. And some of it last year might have been youth, some of it. How much of it was. CJ Needs to be a better orchestra leader in all of that. It's the kind of stuff that you're going to get. Like going into last season, we had so many people say, all right, listen, if they're going to be running more of a New England style of offense, there's going to be some hiccups along the way. The quarterback, no matter how smart he is, is just not going to pick up all this stuff immediately and make it look good, especially when he missed all of OTAs. That part of it. It's one of those things that if this season just sucks offensively, then all right, none of that, none of this discourse right now matters at all. If the offense takes a step forward, I think then it becomes a reasonable explanation for why it took. Why did it take a full season for all of this to come together? Oh, okay. Because you're putting a lot of different moving parts together.
- [06:20]
C
Yeah. And so with that said, and makes total sense, like, how much do you expect it to be better this year? Whether it's because some of those guys are older or just Shroud has another year, should we expect a big leap there?
- [06:31]
B
Yeah, I think we'll just to go back to Woody Marks.
- [06:34]
C
Yeah.
- [06:34]
B
You know, another situation later in the year that I don't think they could have pulled off in the first half of the season was in the Chiefs game, where down in the red zone, CJ adjusted the protection, moved Woody Marks over to the left side of the formation. And then Woody Marks seeps out for a wide open touchdown. Like that's the kind of stuff that I don't think you would have seen. Like you wouldn't have seen the whole operation look like that for any on any given play in the first part of the season. And I think they were figuring it out as the year went along. The big, I mean the big thing again, just to make more excuses and, or explanation, whatever you want to say is that you get into that final game of the year and they had to reshuffle their offensive line. They didn't have Nico Collins, they still couldn't run the ball effectively really at any they got better at running the ball in the second half of the season, but the offensive line figured things out. But it still wasn't as good as it needed to be, especially when they lost their left guard or when they had to move Titus back to right tackle. The other thing that I think people kind of forget or lose in the shuffle of everything was that the Texans offensive line in CJ's rookie year was actually they were ranked like 16th or 17th on PFF's final O line rankings. It wasn't a good offensive line, but it was a more functional, functioning offensive line than he's had the last couple years. Like so where it just gets too easy to always go back to the offensive line, always go back to the offensive line. I think it's, I think it's important to put it into context that the offensive line did operate better as a unit in that first year of Stroud and then the last couple years he just, he hasn't had that type of performance.
- [08:14]
A
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- [09:15]
C
Let me ask you this because I am curious. You know, this year we're assuming that the center very well will be a rookie who's making a change to that center position. So when we talk about Stroud having that command and the offense at the line and trying to improve and do better in year two, how big of an impact do you think that would have if his center is a rookie who hasn't necessarily played a ton of center before, certainly not in the NFL, you know, how big of a role could that play?
- [09:39]
B
That's where I think that's the one of the biggest tests for cj Being the genuine leader of the offense and really just, you know, being more Peyton Manning, like, really. And just even more so than Tom Brady. Just because I was on the field with Peyton Manning and I used to get embarrassed for offensive linemen when he would. When he would reprimand them. Not that, not that C.J. has to do it in the same style or fashion or anything, but like just being a completely psychotic, you know, control freak. There's that, like, there needs to be a little bit of that in you if you're going to be. If you're. If you want to operate in this offense the way that, like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning are the ultimate control freaks. Did you hear the story that Sean told about Peyton Manning? Oh, no. We played the audio of Eli saying that basically at Eli's own birthday, Peyton Manning gave him what he was supposed to talk about.
- [10:31]
C
Yes.
- [10:32]
B
Like, Peyton gave Eli notes for. That's the kind of control freak you need to be when you're leading an offense like this.
- [10:37]
C
Well, I heard the story where didn't you, like, MC an event with them and they made sure they gave you like, strict talking points, right?
- [10:44]
B
Yeah, they. Yeah, Peyton. Peyton had very strict things about what I was and was not supposed to talk about. And I veered from it. And I got the. I got that look. I got that look from Peyton Manning when I asked. When I was basically like. They gave me this. They basically wanted me to ask like a list of pre canned, like canned questions. And I'm like, I can't do this. I'm not going to. I'll use it as a guide.
- [11:08]
D
Right.
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B
But we're going to. We're going to free flow a little bit.
- [11:11]
C
Yeah.
- [11:11]
B
Yeah. And he gave me the look that he used to give Jeff Saturday when Jeff Saturday screwed up the snap. But he doesn't. He didn't have any power over me.
- [11:17]
D
Right.
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B
I was doing. I'm doing this event for free, Peyton. Yeah.
- [11:20]
C
You're like, sit down, nerd. Yeah, that's. That's funny.
- [11:23]
B
I'm doing this for charity. Are you?
- [11:24]
C
Yeah.
- [11:24]
B
Are you doing it for the kids? Are you accepting a fee for this, Peyton? I should have asked them that. How much was your fee for this event?
- [11:30]
C
Yeah, exactly. How much would you. Since you were on the other side there, like, what percentage would you say Peyton was actually calling the offense during those games? Was he doing, like, all of it?
- [11:41]
B
He was. Well, okay. So, I mean, like, usually what'll happen and. Because when you can talk of different types of systems and everything, the. The Colts did something that was different in a lot of ways than what the Patriots were doing. But I think that if you think about Peyton going to Kubiak in his system, like, by the time a guy's a veteran quarterback, it doesn't matter what system you're in, like, guys are going to tweak things and they're going to modify routes and they're going to. They're going to make their. Their calls at the line of scrimmage to where it becomes more of a matter of. All right, depending on whatever the nomenclature is and everything. Like the quarterback is calling the shots. The thing about the, the. The thing about the Colts, I'd say compared to maybe Tom Brady is their offense was simpler in a lot of ways, but a lot of it was predicated on Peyton just kind of understanding the look and knowing the tendencies and getting into a different pre checked call or what. Like, he was doing a lot. That was why the. You know, one of the things I got excited about them talking about this preseason was d' Ameco talking about the snap count and the hard counts and how much that matters. Because what Peyton would do is he'd come up to the line of scrimmage and have 15 seconds left on the play clock. And then he would, you get everybody lined up, you would make an audible. It was probably a dummy call. And then he would have a hard count where he'd try to get a safety or somebody to just to show a little bit of something. And then that's when he would step back and he would make his real audible and his real change based on what he thought the defense was going to be. And that was the worst feeling is like a defensive lineman because for one you get tired like being in your stance for that long. But then when you know you got a safety blitz called and he gives a hard count and then steps back out from under center and changes the call, you're like, oh, we're screwed, we're screwed on this play. He knows exactly what we're doing. Because I know the safety, the safety like took a little stutter step forward or something like. That's the part where regardless of whether you're running more of a McVeigh system or a Belichick system or whatever it might be, it's the quarterback just diagnosing pre snap what the look, diagnosing what the defense is trying to do. And then however you get into the right call, getting into the right call. And it was just impossible for the Texans to operate that way in a lot of ways last year because they just didn't, they didn't have enough, they didn't have enough real estate on the play clock to do it. They were just, still, they were just trying to get the snap off more so than really diagnose things.
- [14:07]
C
I got a follow up question. I'll ask you on the other side about all that. By the way, on the text line, they, a couple of texts came in saying they blew up the offensive line. They must think that's a big part of their struggle. Someone else said they couldn't run the ball. That, that is not on CJ So I get the idea. I acknowledge that the offensive line was not good enough, but it's almost like I never understood in baseball where if a pitcher commits an error, the runs become unearned. Where it's like, well, it was still your responsibility as a pitcher.
- [14:36]
B
It's similar. What it is, is, I mean, it's almost like, to make a rough pitching analogy, it's like a, if a reliever comes in and there's, you know, guys on base, those aren't his runs. If he gives, gives them up, that there's, there's a dynamic when you're in second long all the time or third long all the time. Just a harder environment in which to operate. No matter who you are as a quarterback, nobody's actually really good at third and 10. They're better than others at converting third and 10. But the overall numbers don't look great compared to their other numbers, their overall third down conversion percentage. So the lack of the run game where it really hurts the quarterback is just that it puts him in tougher and tougher situations more often.
- [15:20]
C
Yeah. Yeah. Which is fair. 713-57-24-610 on the text line. Coming up, let's get back to the Astros after this big series victory over the weekend. How are we all the way back? Are we all in on the Astros at this point heading towards the All Star break? We'll talk about it next here on Pain and Pendergast.
- [15:38]
A
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