Is the World Cup doing More for the NFL Than the NFL's International Games?

Summary

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Payne & Pendergast

Episode: Is the World Cup doing More for the NFL Than the NFL's International Games?

Date: July 8, 2026
Hosts: Luke Morrow (in for Sean Pendergast), Seth Payne
Notable Guest: Landon Donovan (via audio)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores a provocative sports debate: Is the FIFA World Cup in the U.S. providing more long-term benefits for the NFL than the NFL’s own international expansion games? Host Luke Morrow joins Seth Payne in a conversation that mixes soccer’s rising American popularity, the cultural endurance of “major sports,” barriers to grassroots soccer, and whether the NFL’s overseas approach is working. Expect thought-provoking analysis, good-natured banter, and deeper questions about the future of sports in America.

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Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. (00:33) The “27 Club” Tangent and Cultural Barriers in Sports

• The episode starts with banter over famous musicians dying young (the “27 Club”), drawing a parallel with fleeting stardom and longer-term legacy in sports.
  • Quote: “Partly because we never accomplished anything musically, but also because we're past the age of 27." – Luke Morrow (02:27)
• This segues into a talk about lasting cultural impact—in music and sports—hinting at how difficult it is for a “new” sport (like soccer) to gain long-term traction in the U.S.

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2. (03:25) Has Soccer Really “Arrived” After the World Cup?

• Luke raises the central question: Is soccer in the US poised for a jump after record World Cup viewership?
  • "Will this actually increase soccer popularity here in the United States?" – Luke Morrow (03:18)
• Seth responds: Despite rising participation and four decades of slow growth, the US still isn’t a top-tier soccer country.
  • “But then in a country of over 300 million people, somehow you haven't advanced as an actual world power one tiny bit in all that time.” – Seth Payne (03:45)
• They agree the World Cup boosts participation but doubt it will cement mass soccer fandom among adults. Interest spikes are typically short-lived, comparing it to “New Year’s resolutions that fade.”
  • “It's exciting in the moment... But a week later, it's like, you know, that's old news.” – Luke Morrow (04:20)

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3. (05:14) Why Soccer Won’t Easily Crack the Top American Sports

• Seth articulates how hard it is to add a “major” sport to American culture.
  • “It's a big ask to just add one to the mix... football overtaking baseball took decades.” – Seth Payne (05:20)
• Olympics and niche comparisons: Just because a sport booms during the Olympics (like biathlon), doesn’t mean it becomes central in the US.
• There is “way more” US interest in international soccer leagues than decades ago, but entrenched cultural identities still dominate.

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4. (07:35) The Youth Soccer Wealth Gap—Landon Donovan Segment

• Guest analyst (Landon Donovan) shares a 2016 study: Only 2% of US youth soccer players come from households earning under $50K. Most are from $100-150K homes.
  • “Meaning if you don't make $50,000, your kid cannot play organized soccer...growing up, there is zero chance I could have played club soccer.” – Landon Donovan (07:40)
• Seth and the guest agree: The “pay-to-play” US model excludes lower-income kids. In contrast, other nations develop talent via street and public play.
  • “It's a very... upper middle class sport [in America].” – Seth Payne (09:45)
• Insight: Until the financial and cultural model changes, the US may struggle to produce world-class soccer players.

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5. (11:20) Soccer Compared to Hockey: Barriers of Cost & Accessibility

• Luke draws a parallel with hockey—a sport similarly bogged down by high costs and practical hurdles (e.g., expensive gear, lack of ice time).
  • “There seemed to be more restrictions than just simply going out and shooting hoops or throwing a football around." – Luke Morrow (11:32)
• Seth adds that American kids are pulled in many sports directions, unlike in countries where top athletes funnel into one path (e.g., soccer or hockey).

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6. (12:45) Central Thesis: The 2026 World Cup and the NFL’s Global Ambitions

• Luke’s Bold Point: Hosting the World Cup in the US may benefit the NFL more than sending NFL games abroad.
  • "I think the World Cup's doing more for the NFL than their international games." – Luke Morrow (12:45)
  • International NFL games mostly attract expat and existing NFL fans, not new converts.
  • “Once the NFL leaves that country, they’re back to doing whatever they’re doing.” – Luke Morrow (13:56)
• The World Cup exposes millions of global fans to American culture, stadiums, and—by osmosis—NFL fandom as they experience the sport & US cities.
  • Example: Patriots owner Robert Kraft now wants to play a game in Scotland, inspired by the World Cup bringing Scottish fans to Foxborough.

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7. (14:17) Are NFL International Games Really Creating Fans?

• Seth: There’s a core of European NFL fans, but they're already converted; international games aren't making headlines in host countries.
  • “It’s not headline news... if people are kind of like, ‘Oh, they’re playing football over there.’” – Seth Payne (14:30)
• Insight: The grassroots impact of flag football (a focus for the NFL) may have more international growth potential than showcase games.

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8. (16:13) The World Cup's Modern Advantage: Social Media and Real American Experiences

• Seth notes that the 1994 World Cup lacked social media, so foreign visitors didn’t broadcast their positive US experiences widely.
• This year, fans share stories of American kindness and culture, giving the NFL and other US sports organic international exposure.
  • “We just didn’t get as much of the boots on the ground... firsthand experience from all these foreigners... that wasn’t the experience in 1994.” – Seth Payne (16:29)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “But then in a country of over 300 million people, somehow you haven't advanced as an actual world power one tiny bit in all that time.”
  — Seth Payne [03:45]
• “It’s exciting in the moment…but a week later, it’s like, you know, that’s old news.”
  — Luke Morrow [04:20]
• "Meaning if you don't make $50,000, your kid cannot play organized soccer...growing up, there is zero chance I could have played club soccer.”
  — Landon Donovan [07:40]
• “It’s a big ask to just add [a sport] to the mix... football overtaking baseball took decades.”
  — Seth Payne [05:20]
• “Once the NFL leaves that [country], they’re back to doing whatever they’re doing.”
  — Luke Morrow [13:56]
• “It’s not headline news... if people are kind of like, ‘Oh, they’re playing football over there.’”
  — Seth Payne [14:30]
• “We just didn’t get as much of the boots on the ground, like, firsthand experience from all these... visitors that are gushing about all the fun they're having in the US—that just wasn’t the experience in 1994.”
  — Seth Payne [16:29]

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Key Takeaways for Listeners

• World Cup Exposure: Hosting a global event in the US organically spreads awareness and appreciation for American football and culture—perhaps more than fleeting, single NFL games abroad.
• Barriers to Soccer Dominance: The “pay-to-play” model in US youth soccer leaves out vast talent pools (unlike global counterparts), stunting elite player development.
• Lasting Cultural Shifts Take Decades: Neither World Cups nor NFL one-offs instantaneously shift America’s sports hierarchy—they create “spikes,” not revolutions.
• NFL’s International Strategy Needs Rethinking: Fans in London or Germany aren’t necessarily new; they’re already NFL fans. True international growth may require grassroots investment (e.g., flag football).
• Social Media Magnifies Impact: Unlike 1994, today's visitors share their U.S. experiences with the world, organically marketing American sports.

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Segment Timestamps

• 00:33-02:28 – Banter: The “27 Club” and culture’s impact on sports legacies
• 03:18-05:14 – Is soccer finally breaking through in the US? Viewership vs. lasting participation
• 05:14-07:13 – Can a “new” sport become American mainstream? Cultural inertia and Olympics effects
• 07:35-10:07 – Landon Donovan: Soccer’s economic barriers in the US
• 11:20-12:45 – Hockey vs. soccer: Accessibility challenges in youth sports
• 12:45-14:17 – Main argument: The World Cup does more for NFL’s global appeal than international games
• 14:17-15:49 – NFL international games: Are they making new fans?
• 16:13-16:54 – Social media and the amplification of American sports culture via World Cup visitors

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Overall, this episode delivers sharp sports analysis with relatable banter. It provides a fresh, critical look at how global sporting events and strategic decisions shape fanbases—not just in the stands, but in the culture.

Transcript

[Luke Morrow]

The World cup is doing more for the NFL than their international games are. Talk about that here on Payne and Pendergast. I'm Luke Morrow in for Sean Alongside Seth Payne. 713-572-4610. On the text line, where many people are getting in on the whole guitarist debate and conversation.

[Seth Payne]

Yeah, I figured as soon as you just so flippantly discarded Jimi Hendrix that you might have a few objections. Yeah, well, surprisingly, you basically call Jimi Hendrix a bum.

[Luke Morrow]

Yeah, that's right. He's the Don Mattingly. That's why Mattingly has always been left out of the hall of Fame because, like, well, he was great for six years, but that was about it. He didn't have a long enough career.

[Seth Payne]

You didn't even say that. You didn't even tell people. For the young people to know that Jimi Hendrix died. You just. You acted like you retired young or something. Yeah, he failed. Yeah. Sorry. He couldn't keep playing guitar after he died. Rick Morrow catalog.

[Luke Morrow]

It's like a athlete that has a career ending injury. He only played three years. I can't say that he has, you know, that he's a greater. Greater athlete or had a greater career than someone who did it longer.

[Seth Payne]

Yeah. But if you die of a drug overdose, I feel like that vaults you up in rock and roll status. More so than how good of a guitarist could Eric Clapton actually be if he lived such a long and fruitful life?

[Luke Morrow]

He had his. He had his own.

[Seth Payne]

Sounds like a good jazz guitarist to me. Yeah. Smooth jazz. Not the real stuff.

[Luke Morrow]

Yeah, yeah. And he is part. I don't think Jimmy. I don't know if he started. I think Jim Morrison might have been before him. But the whole 27 Club, which has obviously become famous.

[Seth Payne]

People are dying at 27.

[Luke Morrow]

Yeah, yeah.

[Seth Payne]

Jim Morrison. It was Janis Joplin, 27.

[Luke Morrow]

And then the more recent one who had Amy Winehouse, I believe was 27.

[Seth Payne]

She was 27.

[Luke Morrow]

I believe so.

[Seth Payne]

I think she technically died of liver disease, but she was. But it was. I mean, obviously tied to her alcohol. It was some weird different scenario. Don't overthink it. She had issues. Yeah.

[Luke Morrow]

And then there's another. There's a few others, too, I think, but yeah, yeah. Like the 27 Club.

[Guest Analyst]

So.

[Luke Morrow]

So Jimmy has that going for him,

[Seth Payne]

too, in his legacy, that Kurt Cobain.

[Luke Morrow]

Oh, wow.

[Seth Payne]

And it was. It's an accidental alcohol poisoning for Amy Winehouse and Brian Jones from the Rolling Stones.

[Luke Morrow]

Yes. That was the other one. I think he drowned in a pool.

[Seth Payne]

Yeah.

[Luke Morrow]

Yeah. But I think he Was. He was on something, obviously, or really drunk. And he. I think he drowned in the pool one night at like a.

[Seth Payne]

You and I will never be in that club, man.

[Luke Morrow]

No.

[Seth Payne]

Yeah. You know, partly because we never accomplished anything musically, but also because we're past the age of 27.

[Luke Morrow]

Yeah. Most importantly, fine with me. I'd rather not be in that club. All due respect to those. Those legends, the World cup. And by the way, keep sending those texts and I'll. I've been interacting with everyone. And not a lot of Jimi Hendrix defense. It's for a lot of other guitarists that people are coming to the defense of. But anyways, the World Cup, I think, is doing more for the NFL than the NFL's international games are. But there's a few things that I do want to get to in this. This conversation with the World Cup. And we got some audio as well. Look, when the World cup was last here, it was 1994, and MLS started like two years later, do you think, with the popularity. I think it was like 39 million or 31 million people watched the game against Belgium the other night. Do you think that this World cup, will this actually increase soccer popularity here in the United States?

[Seth Payne]

I mean, it has. It's steadily increase for the last 30 or 40 years, and I think that's probably going to continue. I mean, the whole CTE thing didn't really help out all that much, even though kids get concussions in soccer. But it's still a lot of people moved away from football into soccer. And I think that that's with or without the World cup, that was going to continue to increase, I think. So the big question people are having now, I think, is that, all right, it's been 30, 40 years of soccer becoming such a mainstream sport. The participant rate, participation rates have gone up so drastically. But then in a country of over 300 million people, somehow you haven't advanced as an actual world power one, one tiny bit in all that time. And it's frustrating.

[Luke Morrow]

Yeah, yeah, it is. You know, I kind of think that it's the type of deal, like, I'm curious how many people. So let me say this. I do think it's going to help with participation. I do think it's going to help like with kids get into soccer more. So. And so maybe that's most important and that's what's going to carry the sport further in this country. But I think of like the adults from a fan perspective of soccer or the sport, the people that were tuning into the World cup and really were into it and bought the jerseys at Target and everything and maybe even had a chance to go to the games here in Houston. I think especially now, like that even us is out of it. I think a lot of people are tuning out from the World cup and I think it's one of those things that it's exciting in the moment, like any almost new thing is. But I would compare it to like when your buddy has a really drunken night and they throw up all morning or whatever and they're like, I'm never drinking again. And then a week later it's like, you know, that's old news. I'm back to drinking now. I think it's similar, especially training camp starting in two weeks. That, yeah, like that was a fun thing. But I don't think people are going to start watching, you know, English soccer or Italian soccer leagues now because of the World Cup.

[Seth Payne]

I don't, look, I don't. I mean there's so many things that work against it just in terms of how much bandwidth do people have for like just swapping in a new of pastime, you know, like, okay, football overtaking baseball was something that took decades and it's still, it's still like football and baseball and basketball and then in some areas of the country, hockey are still entrenched as the four major professional sports. I feel like it's a big ask to all of a sudden just add one to the mix and make people just like almost create a brand new culture that, I don't know, maybe sometime, maybe, maybe someday 30 or 40 or 50 years from now it'll be more cemented. But I just, I think it's just too, it's too large of a thing psychologically and culturally that just a little bit of positive exposure, getting excited about it here and there ends up making that big of a thing about. Back in the day when the Olympics were a huge deal, did all of a sudden the biathlon become, you know, one of the mainstay sports in America? Because wow, I've been watching the biathlon on the Olympics and boy, I can't get enough, can't get enough of this skiing and shooting all over the place. Like, no, it doesn't. Like it's something that you enjoy in spells and then, you know, maybe you buy some cross country skis or something and then take a ski vacation. But it's not, I think it's just going to be a longer process than any one single moment. We have way more people watching Premier League and stuff than we ever did. Back in the day, that was never a thing. Right. I didn't know. I didn't have a damn clue about anything that was going on in European soccer. We're now. Now, on any given day, I might bump into people that actually know what they're talking about when it comes to soccer. You know, like, more than just. It used to be the annoying dude who played high school soccer and all of a sudden felt like he was the expert on soccer. Now there's actually a lot more Americans that pay attention to pro soccer in general.

[Luke Morrow]

Yeah. I was always surprised. Even when I was in high school, I had buddies that would wake up early to watch international soccer matches. And that seems so CR to me. I already thought, like, school's early enough. I'm not waking up to watch soccer in Italy or, you know, whatever. Anywhere in Europe or England. Like, I couldn't care less. Here's Landon Donovan talking about the wealth gap in. In. In soccer.

[Guest Analyst]

So there was a study that. This is actually in 2016. I'm sure it's gotten worse. Like, the gap's gotten bigger.

[Seth Payne]

Right.

[Guest Analyst]

Of all the kids playing youth soccer, they broke down percentage wise what the household income was of those kids. So the. The majority of the kids fell. Parents household income was like 100 to $150,000. Okay. Only 2% of kids who were playing organized soccer in America came from households that made less than $50,000. Meaning if you don't make $50,000, your kid cannot play organized soccer. And think about how many kids you're missing out on in this country because they can't afford to play the game now. Somebody has to pay for it. Someone has to pay for the coaches. I get it. But what's happening now is clubs are just grinding every penny out of every. And growing up, there is zero chance I could have played club soccer. My mom made $34,000 a year. Single mom raising three kids.

[Seth Payne]

Yeah. And so he had somebody as a benefactor, somebody that helped him out with it because he was so good. But that. I mean, it's one of the things. I know a lot of people have brought up the way the clubs are organized in America compared to the way they are in Europe. And just the clubs themselves are more. Aren't as incentivized to spit out awesome soccer players as they are just to collect dues from the parents and all of that. But I don't know without kids that are growing up playing it all the time like they are in other countries, and especially when you take the kids that are theoretically the hungriest and most willing to work for it and everything. That's where the cultural part of it comes in. It's a very, it's not just a middle class sport. It's an upper middle class sport. You know, like the, the 56,000 household income to about 170,000 is considered middle class. And what did he say there? The vast majority of kids were 100,000 or higher. You know, so you're, you're getting up there into the, you know, upper middle class categories. I just, I, for, for a worldwide sport like that, not a niche sport like lacrosse or something, because lacrosse, you're competing a bunch of other against a bunch of other middle class kids and everything that it just kind of, it's not as big of a factor. Soccer. You're playing against all these kids that grow up playing soccer in the streets and playing soccer every day after school. And it's just part of the culture. I don't know, I don't know how you replicate that or replace that.

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[Seth Payne]

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[Seth Payne]

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[Seth Payne]

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[Luke Morrow]

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[Luke Morrow]

Yeah, it kind of reminds me of almost like hockey is another sport that's been lagging behind in this, in this country. And in part because like A, it can be a little expensive, but also B, just like the commitment. Where I grew up in town, ice time was hard to come by. Our high school team would practice at like 6am before school and the parents would have to get up and drive. It just. There seemed to be more restrictions than just simply going out and shooting hoops or throwing a football around or something, you know?

[Seth Payne]

Yeah, yeah. It's hockey especially. You think about growing up in Canada. So good. Canada's got 20, 30. I can't remember, is it 60 million? Whatever it is, it's much smaller than the U.S. but like, all those kids grow up playing hockey and dreaming of being hockey players and, you know, setting goals for that earlier on in life, where the US it just. It's still. It still feels artificial. And this is. The pool of kids that you're pulling from isn't going to be nearly as big because they have so many. Think about the really good athletes in a high school or in a. In a middle school or anything like those kids in others. In other countries, those kids are being funneled into the soccer program, where in America, those kids. The soccer coach is fighting with a football coach, trying to get their attention, you know, trying to get the kid on their side. And it's just. There's just too many. There's too many competing alternatives to just dial in on soccer and then. And to do that, you'd have to have this nationwide demand to do it. And we just don't have that nationwide demand.

[Luke Morrow]

Let me pay off my tease. I think the World Cup's doing more for the NFL than their international games. I've been on record, I hate these international games from an American fan perspective for the NFL, but I also don't think it's growing the game. I think if you watch these games, a lot of it is like Americans that make the trip and then people of that country that are going for the spectacle. But I don't know how many of those people are leaving the stadium in like, Argentina and going out and buying NFL jerseys or getting NFL Sunday ticket, where I think here it almost happened naturally where, because this was their product, the World cup, they organically or naturally came over here to this country and now are experiencing so many things like Buc EE's and Taco Bell and whatever else that they love. And that includes. I know it's not going on right now, but that includes American football because these games are being played in stadiums and fans are in the cities and they get to know the sports fans and whatnot. So much so that Robert Kraft is now pushing to have a Patriots game in Scotland because Scotland just played at that stadium in Massachusetts. And so many came over and they enjoyed the area and I guess kind of by osmosis became interested or almost fans of the Patriots. And now Robert Kraft's like, okay, now we actually do. Now we're actually building some fans in another country. Let's bring our product to them. But I think in a way, this World cup could actually be more beneficial for the NFL than these random international games where they just drop in for one week and the people don't know what's going on. They're like, yeah, I'll go check it out. But once the NFL leaves that. That country, they're back to doing whatever they're doing.

[Seth Payne]

I think what happens in a lot of the international games is that there's a boat like. Like in the European games, there's a boatload of. When you add them all up, there's a boatload of NFL fans in Europe. So you have a game in London, and you've got fans from all over Europe who are fans of different NFL teams and everything, but who are already NFL fans that go to those games where. Yeah, in the city of London itself. The reports are always that, like, if people are kind of like, oh, yeah, what's going on? Oh, they're playing football over there. Like, it's not headline news or anything that you might be onto something there. I feel like the international games have been. If anything, the people who become NFL fans over there do it. It's not because they saw an NFL game, but you are still fostering those people and bringing them along by bringing the game over there and just showing that you care about them. I think the flag football is probably going to be. If the game really wants to grow internationally. I mean, this is where the NFL is putting all their resources. Like, flag football is the thing that kids can just go out and do, you know, like, you know, if you. If they can find a football somewhere, they can go out and start playing American football and they can watch it on the Internet and do all those things that you probably get more grassroots, buy into the NFL from flag football than you do the actual international games.

[Commercial/Ad Voice]

Right?

[Luke Morrow]

Yeah. Yeah, that'd be interesting. Yeah. I don't know how much international games are truly growing the sport. I think they're fun, they make money, all that sort of stuff. I don't know how many people come out of there, be like, oh, I'm all into the NFL now. I don't know.

[Seth Payne]

I'm always. I'm always surprised by the number. I mean, again, it's the entire continent, and you add them all up. There's a lot of European football fans, but. But they're already fans And I don't know. Yeah. Like, what are they? Are you really creating roots in those places with the games? I don't know.

[Luke Morrow]

Yeah, I don't know so much, but I think the World cup might have just naturally kind of done that for a lot of people with some things here.

[Seth Payne]

What the World cup didn't have in 1994 when they were here was social media. And it was because it was at the Meadowlands, which is not like the best place to show off America. No. Okay. There weren't all these reports about, wow, these New Yorkers are so pleasant and friendly.

[Luke Morrow]

Wow.

[Seth Payne]

We just didn't get, we didn't get as much of the boots on the ground, like, firsthand experience from all these foreign foreigners. These, these visitors that are, that are gushing about all the fun they're having in the US that just, that wasn't the experience in 1994.

[Luke Morrow]

Yeah. I love that idea of like, hey, we're going to go to America. We're going to go to New York. And then. Yeah, you're, you're in the Meadowlands.

[Seth Payne]

You're in New Jersey.

[Luke Morrow]

Yeah. In the.

[Seth Payne]

Which is an impossible stadium to get to.

[Luke Morrow]

Yes.

[Seth Payne]

And like the city with the most public transportation of anywhere else in America. Like, somehow you can't get to the football stadium. Right.

[Luke Morrow]

Like, wow, New York looks a lot different in the movies coming up. Maybe I'm the crazy one. How good will this Texans wide receiver room be this year? Because I have concerns. We'll talk about it next. Pain and Pendergast.

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