PBD Podcast Ep. 674: Glenn Greenwald on CIA's Venezuela Coup, Trump & Lula, Israel Policy, and Whistleblowers

Date: October 28, 2025
Host: Patrick Bet-David (PBD)
Guest: Glenn Greenwald

Episode Overview

This engaging episode features renowned journalist Glenn Greenwald in a long-form, head-to-head conversation with host Patrick Bet-David (PBD). The discussion spans U.S. foreign policy, whistleblower culture, the Israel-U.S. relationship, interventions abroad, the political evolution of Trump’s inner circle, and major shifts in media ownership. With fascinating anecdotes and sharp critiques, Greenwald offers deep insight into governmental secrecy, power structures, and the realities of modern journalism. Both men approach global complexities with candor, skepticism, and a mutual willingness to challenge prevailing narratives and each other.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Legacy of Whistleblowers: Snowden, Assange & Why No More Have Emerged

(02:00–10:31)

• Greenwald recalls his Snowden experience, highlighting the bravery, vision, and sacrifice of Edward Snowden and Julian Assange.
• Whistleblower climate has chilled sharply:
  • The Obama administration was unprecedentedly aggressive in prosecuting whistleblowers under the Espionage Act, seeking to deter future leaks by making examples of figures like Chelsea Manning, Snowden, and Assange.
  • "They were trying to create this climate of fear where anyone thinking about, maybe I'm going to be the next Edward Snowden... had to understand that if they did so, they're not going to just go to prison; they're going to have their lives completely destroyed." (A, 05:45)
• Why risk it? PBD asks if whistleblowers expect their lives to change/destroy. Greenwald confirms they are driven by conviction, but perhaps underestimated the relentlessness of the state response.
• Personal vignette:
  • Greenwald recounts the tense Snowden meeting in Hong Kong and the lack of a real escape plan—“He didn’t really care... He was ready for [being caught].” (A, 08:30)
  • Snowden has said he'd return to the U.S. if pardoned, but real safety is a distant prospect.

2. Pardons, Deep State, and the Inner Workings of Trump Administration

(11:05–18:48)

• Trump nearly pardoned Snowden:
  • According to Greenwald, "Trump came an inch away, Patrick. He came an inch away." (A, 12:00)
  • "A bunch of Republican senators made clear to him, if you pardon Edward Snowden, we’re gonna let this impeachment proceeding go through and we’re gonna convict you. They had a kind of sword of Damocles hanging over his head." (A, 13:00)
  • Mike Pompeo considered a principal antagonist: "He was one of the worst people in the first Trump administration. Was Mike Pompeo responsible for a lot of the worst parts..." (A, 14:58)
• Washington’s power structure:
  • Both reflect on how military, intelligence, and “deep state” actors operate beyond presidential control, sometimes even directly undermining elected presidents.
  • "Washington is a cesspool... All of Washington is built to make sure that democracy doesn’t matter." (A, 15:15)

3. Trump’s Evolution & Loyalty in the MAGA Camp

(18:48–24:44)

• Who does Trump trust?
  • “Definitely Stephen Miller.” (A, 19:50)
  • Marco Rubio is positioned as the most powerful in foreign policy but viewed as a potential turncoat: “I think Rubio would turn on Trump in a heartbeat.” (A, 20:32)
• America First vs. Neoconservatism:
  • J.D. Vance is described as a more sincere America First adherent, skeptical of endless foreign war—"That's the kind of wasteful war that MAGA and America First was created to oppose." (A, 23:02)

4. Top Secret Files America Needs Exposed

(26:08–29:57)
PBD asks: What are the Top 5 government secrets Americans most need a whistleblower to reveal?

Greenwald’s picks:

1. Epstein files – "A window into how corrupted and how deceitful our global elite is... The reasons why two consecutive governments have hidden those files... reveals a lot about how just global elites function." (A, 26:08)
2. Where Ukraine aid money went – Massive corruption likely.
3. U.S.–Israel relationship – Especially American coverups of Israeli violence (e.g., death of journalist Shireen Abu Akleh) and U.S. governmental obfuscation.
   • On Blinken: "Blinken...overrode that and said, no, we cannot publish this. We’re going to come out and say it was unintentional." (A, 29:04)
4. CIA operations and abuses (picked later, see 66:51)
5. NSA domestic surveillance practices (picked later, see 66:51)

5. The Israel–U.S. Relationship: Leverage, Loyalty, and Realpolitik

(29:57–65:34, with continued callbacks throughout episode)

• Debate on U.S. interests and Israeli power:
  • Greenwald provides arguments both for and against the current “special relationship” (30:29–34:23), noting the frequent U.S. objections to settlement expansions and lack of reciprocity from Israel.
  • “They are not loyal to the United States, which is fine. We are America First, we should be.” (A, 43:17)
• Trump’s unpredictability:
  • PBD views Trump as the “boss of bosses” in the negotiation game, not captive to Israeli interests but using them to create leverage in the region: “I think Trump knows that leverage.” (B, 49:01)
• Acknowledgment of Israel lobby’s power:
  • Greenwald: “You cannot underestimate the power of the Israel Lobby… They destroy people.” (A, 53:10)
  • “After the Jews went through the Holocaust, they see everything in an existential way. For that reason, they don’t fuck around.” (A, 53:50)

Notable Quote:

“Anyone who understands anything about [the Israel lobby] understands that they are not to be trifled with.” – Glenn Greenwald (54:49)

• Is Trump really challenging Israel?
  • Greenwald is skeptical absent concrete actions; doubts anyone could fully “put Israel in its place” without enormous backlash (A, 50:22).
  • PBD opines Trump is “playing the game” and moving towards creating alternatives to an “only child” Israel in the Middle East (B, 60:00).

6. Interventionism vs. Non-Interventionism: Venezuela, Colombia, and Beyond

(67:42–103:10)

• Greenwald is adamantly non-interventionist, skeptical that U.S. wars/interventions ever serve the American people or even intended beneficiaries:
  • “It’s very hard for me to make a case for interventionism… I think everybody ends up worse except for a tiny little sliver of the military industrial complex.” (A, 68:03)
  • Advocates for audits, transparency, and a refocusing on domestic priorities.
• On Venezuela:
  • “Venezuela is not a threat to the United States... We don’t need to go to war... kill thousands, create instability and civil war there for years to come that we’re then responsible for.” (A, 95:15)
  • Critiques justifications that frame interventions as wars on drugs or on behalf of democracy; refers to these as pretexts.
• On Colombia:
  • Recognizes leaders’ hostile rhetoric as mostly for domestic consumption rather than a real threat.

7. Media, Billionaires, and the Future of Journalism

(103:10–117:19, Key: 107:51–113:22)

• Barry Weiss’s appointment at CBS:
  • Greenwald is supportive of independent media’s financial success but wary of billionaire control and the specific pro-Israel agenda embodied by new media titans like Larry Ellison.
  • “A major reason [for her hire], obviously, is because she’s fanatically pro-Israel, and that aligns perfectly with the Ellison agenda.” (A, 107:51)
• The concentration of media power:
  • Expresses deep concern Ellison (paramount CBS, possibly CNN, TikTok) wields unprecedented influence with little pushback, especially given his central loyalty: “Israel is his cause, right at the moment that public opinion polls are showing an unraveling of support for Israel…” (A, 107:51)
• TikTok’s new content manager, a former IDF soldier:
  • Hired following demands by ADL and concerns about pro-Palestinian content post-Oct 7; part of wider pro-Israel push in U.S. media. (A, 111:07–111:53)

8. Brazil, Lula, Bolsonaro and U.S. Foreign Policy Pivot

(117:19–132:42)

• On Lula’s charm and real power brokers:
  • “First time I ever interviewed him...I was entranced.” (A, 118:40)
  • Lula is a figurehead; true power lies with right-leaning Supreme Court and figures like Alexandre de Moraes.
• Bolsonaro’s fate:
  • Likely heading to prison; even Trump may not expend political capital to save him, will probably focus on bigger geostrategic bargains (A, 127:40–132:08).
• Brazil’s role in relation to China and the U.S.:
  • Trump wants Brazil to move away from China, leverage access to vital minerals, and end punitive tariffs.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I remember, as a matter of fact...We didn't know if the CIA was going to barge in the door...” – Glenn Greenwald on Snowden’s leak (08:00)
• “After Trump understood what these agencies really were...he had a kind of soft spot in his heart for what Snowden did.” (A, 13:01)
• “With power, throughout history, you have infiltration and snakes worming their way in.” (A, 18:48)
• “You are not going to just go to prison; they are going to have their lives completely destroyed.” – on whistleblowers (A, 05:45)
• “Anyone who cares about things is vulnerable.” – (A, 65:34)
• “If you think about Trump and what he loves most, even the aesthetic of like the Saudi...flamboyant opulence.” (A, 47:08)
• “The concern...is by buying this source of information [CBS]...making sure it's no longer a permissive font for anti-Israel viewpoints.” (A, 115:41)
• “Venezuela is not a threat to the United States...I don’t put it in the top 50.” (A, 95:15)
• “Every country is very complicated. You can't just go and move the pieces around like chess pieces from Foggy Bottom.” (A, 99:10)

Key Timestamps

| Segment Topic | Start | Notable Moment/Quote | |----------------------------------------------------------|-----------|-------------------------------------------------------| | Snowden, Assange, Whistleblowers | 02:00 | “Trying to create this climate of fear…” (05:45) | | Trump/Deep State, Pardon Drama | 11:05 | “He came an inch away, Patrick.” (12:00) | | Loyalty, MAGA Inner Circle, America First | 18:48 | “Definitely Stephen Miller. Rubio could flip…” (20:32)| | Top Whistleblower Secrets | 26:08 | “Epstein is #1…” (26:08) | | Israel-U.S. Policy, Lobby, Realpolitik | 29:57 | “You cannot underestimate the power of the Israel Lobby.” (53:10)| | Interventionism/Non-Interventionism, Venezuela | 67:42 | “Venezuela is not a threat…” (95:15) | | Media, Barry Weiss, Ellison, TikTok |107:51 | “She’s fanatically pro-Israel…” (107:51) | | Brazil, Lula, Bolsonaro, U.S. Strategy |117:19 | “First time I interviewed Lula… entranced.” (118:40) |

Episode Tone & Style

• Conversational, probing, sharply analytical, often irreverent but respectful.
• Both PBD and Greenwald are forthright; the tone is honest, sometimes testy but never hostile.
• Anecdotes and behind-the-scenes stories abound, especially from Greenwald’s reporting experience.
• Political topics handled both from the hard-nosed “deal making” and idealistic/ethical perspectives.

For Listeners: Why This Episode Matters

• Insider perspective on the rarity of whistleblowers and why mass digital leaks have slowed.
• Deep dive into the psycho-political realities of Washington, D.C. and the “deep state.”
• Excellent primer on current debate over the Israel–U.S. relationship and the leverage game in Middle East policy.
• Illuminates the massive role of media concentration and billionaire influence on news, especially concerning U.S. foreign policy and support for Israel.
• Explores interventionism’s costs, with Venezuela as a timely example, and why even “bad guys” like Maduro matter less than claimed.
• World events contextualized with first-person experience and an eye for the systemic forces often hidden behind headlines.

End of Summary