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- [00:00]
A
Always wanted to be an outlaw, not a criminal.
- [00:02]
B
What made Sonny so powerful? What was his reputation?
- [00:08]
A
Why don't you people go home? Sonny's a very complicated man. If it wasn't Sonny's idea, it wasn't a good idea. No matter if it benefited everybody or not. Periodic concern for what these people are doing to our great nation may provoke violent acts by us. Sonny saw the club as something that belonged to him. Other members saw them of a club.
- [00:33]
B
How did you maneuver your way up to that kind of power?
- [00:35]
A
How can you have respect without fear? I think it, you know, you got to have a little fear. The bomb they planted didn't go off. He told me, you're going to go retrieve the bomb that didn't go off. And I said, why am I going to retrieve it? I go. I didn't make the bomb. Be an effective peacemaker. You have to be willing to go to war. That was kind of my philosophy. I was strictly for peace, which was a very unpopular position in the outlaw.
- [01:02]
B
How come nobody kills him? How come he lives till 83? How does he live till 83?
- [01:05]
A
Well, I think that I'm gonna. I'm gonna say something here that a lot of people know that Hell's angel history and perhaps are. Watch.
- [01:30]
B
30 seconds.
- [01:31]
A
Did you ever think you were made again.
- [01:40]
B
Adam? What's your point? The future looks bright. My handshake is better than anything I ever saw. It's right here.
- [01:49]
A
My son's right. I think I said this.
- [01:57]
B
George Christie, great to have you on.
- [01:59]
A
Thank you. Appreciate being here.
- [02:01]
B
Yes. So your story. I grew up in la. Glenda we were talking about earlier.
- [02:04]
A
Glendale.
- [02:05]
B
Yes. And La Crescenta. Crescenta Valley had a lot of Mongols. Hell's Angels. And one of my friends was a. Was part of the gang for 20 plus years. His name was Jim Padri. He's no longer here with us. And he would always tell me stories, what it was like, how he got in the fights, the wars. You guys had many of them. And a lot of wars. A lot of history, a lot of histories. A lot of war. And I want to get into it. And for you, when you. When you think about Hell's Angels, couple names come up. We hear Sonny Barker and we hear George Christie. Those are. These are the two names. Of course, there's other names. I don't want to say there isn't.
- [02:39]
A
The club was, you know, built on a foundation of many people's input, but, yeah, that's a. That's a fair assessment. Sonny Barger was my senior, One of My greatest memories was when he came back from prison and I met him. I had been in the club. I was kind of a rising political input in the club, kind of creating my own base. And I went to Oakland on some unrelated business. One of our members that was a very strong member of Ventura Irish o' Farrell wanted to transfer to Oakland because Sonny wanted him up there. And ultimately he took Sonny's place as leader when Sonny came down with cancer. But after the end of the conversation, Russell Bea, another Oakland heavyweight, said to me, there's someone up the street that wants to talk to you. He'd like to meet you. And I knew who I knew. It was Sonny. And, you know, it's like meeting a football star, a boxing star. Went down to Sonny's house, rode our bikes down there. He came out and greeted us. And I spent several hours in his house talking. It was just. It was an incredible experience. This is.
- [03:56]
B
This is the first time you met him?
- [03:58]
A
This is the first time I met him. I knew about him, you know, long before I met him. I knew about him in. When I was in high school.
- [04:03]
B
What year is this?
- [04:04]
A
This is 78.
- [04:06]
B
78. First time you met him?
- [04:07]
A
First time I met him. In person, maybe. No, you know, actually Price. 77. And I've been hearing about him since the mid-60s, especially after Hunter Thompson wrote that book Hell's Angels. I mean, I felt like I knew him.
- [04:23]
B
How'd you get the book? Were you in your teens when you read the book?
- [04:27]
A
I was in my teens. I was always a motorcycle enthusiast. Always wanted to be a outlaw. I kind of identified with the.
- [04:34]
B
Always wanted to be an outlaw.
- [04:35]
A
Always wanted to be an outlaw, not a criminal. And there's a distinct difference. And people get the outlaw and the criminal confused. And I had my first experience in the mid-50s. I was with my father. And we hear this noise up the street, and I look and it's this guy coming on a chopped Harley, has a cut off vest on of complete outlaw, stops at the stop sign. And when he took off from that stop sign, I metaphorically jumped on the back of that bike. And I knew someday I would be like that man. And, you know, it took me 10 years to get there, but ultimately I got a bike and started hanging out with Independent, as an independent with a question mark. Motorcycle club. It was a club associated with the Hells Angels.
- [05:30]
B
It was a club associated with Hells Angels.
- [05:32]
A
And then I hung out with the Saint Slaves, another club. If you read, read Hunter Thompson's book, he really talks about the Satan slaves a lot in that book, because the Hell's Angels actually were kind of impressed with the Satan Slaves. They were kind of a unique club in San Fernando Valley, and they were kind of the sultans of San Fernando Valley, if you will.
- [05:56]
B
Now, what did your dad do for your dad to almost introduce you to this?
- [06:02]
A
What did he do for you indirectly? Well, he. He was all. You know, I started talking about motorcycles after that, and he was always trying to play it down. Unbeknownst to me, until I got older, his. My grandmother, his mother told me he had a motorcycle, and she had a standing offer of 500 bucks to anybody that push it off the Ventura Pier. It was kind of a inside family joke. And I don't think, you know, she ever thought anybody would take her up on it, but she wanted to show that she didn't think it was appropriate for him to ride a motorcycle. And for some reason, he didn't want me to do it, but I did.
- [06:43]
B
Was he also an outlaw or. No?
- [06:45]
A
No, he was a former Seabee Came, you know, World War II veteran, as my mom was. My dad was a CB, my mother was a Marine. Both veterans of World War II. And that was the birth of the outlaw bikers in the United States and perhaps the world. You know, it was exclusive to the United States, and, you know, now it's a worldwide phenomena. There's outlaw motorcycle clubs everywhere. I don't think there's a continent in the world that doesn't have some 1% motorcycle club, whether it be Hell's Angels, Bandidos, Outlaws, Mongols, whatever it may be.
- [07:28]
B
What. What year was it that the whole thing got started?
- [07:30]
A
1948.
- [07:31]
B
1948.
- [07:32]
A
I call. I consider that the kickoff date. And, you know, the guys in the east go, well, it started back here. And the guys on the west coast, kind of a friendly rivalry for me. It started in Hollister in 1948. There was a motorcycle event up there. The AMA. American Motorcycle association was hosting hill climbs and various races in the little town of Hollister. And the Pissed Off Bastards. That's the name of a bike club.
- [08:04]
B
Literally called Pissed Off.
- [08:05]
A
Pissed Off Bastards.
- [08:06]
B
Can you pull that out front?
- [08:08]
A
The Poo Bobs is what they went by. Po Bops, the Poo Bobs, the galloping goose, the 13 rebels, the booze Fighters.
- [08:18]
B
Great names, by the way.
- [08:19]
A
Yeah, these are all veterans. These are. These are guys that came back from World War II, from the European and the Pacific theaters, most likely suffering from undiagnosed ptsd, whatever. And they felt displaced. They came home Their life had moved on. Probably lost their wives, lost a lot of friends overseas. And they came back and they formed these little motorcycle groups and the American Motorcycle association that weekend labeled them the 1%. That ruin it for us wholesome writers. And those individuals at that time embraced that title. And, you know, the rest is kind of history. You know, we became the 1 percenters. And you know, ultimately 15 years later.
- [09:09]
B
I became part of that pissed off bastards of Bloomington. Is that correct that it says it started in Riverside?
- [09:15]
A
Yes.
- [09:16]
B
In San Bernardino? Yes. Okay, so I know Riverside, I know San Bernardino. What else? If we were to talk about the East Coast, West Coast. What's East Coast? What's West Coast?
- [09:28]
A
West coast is pretty much Northern and Southern California and you know, it's interesting and I'll get on to the east coast. But in the west coast there was a tremendous rivalry between all the bikers, Hells Angels, what other clubs there were in Northern California, the Bay Area specifically, and then the Southern California, there was this unwritten rivalry of the east coast has a similar story of Detroit, Chicago. These were where the Outlaws started. That was kind of our biggest rivalry. You know, we had a war with them that still goes on today. I'm no longer a member, but the two clubs still fight. And the ironic thing is I realized this morning when I was here, this is Broward County. That's where the war started. They killed Whiskey George and Riverboat. Whiskey George and Riverboat went to the Outlaws clubhouse on an invite. They were told by Sandy Alexander, a very powerful Hells angel from New York City, don't go to their clubhouse. And they went there and they were executed and thrown in a some rock quarry around here.
- [10:52]
B
Here in Broadway.
- [10:54]
A
Yes. The order came down from Jim Nolan, who was the leader of Outlaws in Florida at the time. And ultimately he went to prison for 50 years for that murder. You look up Jim Nolan, he just was released recently. And I know him, he knows me. You know, we've talked Big Jim Nolan.
- [11:24]
B
He'S the one that killed.
- [11:26]
A
Well, he ordered. He made the order.
- [11:27]
B
He made. And how big of a player was Jim at the time?
- [11:31]
A
The biggest.
- [11:31]
B
He was the. Even bigger than Sonny.
- [11:33]
A
Oh, yeah. Well, he. For the Outlaws, that's two separate clubs. Got it. For Hell's Angels and for the Outlaws, he was what? Sonny Barger was 40 outlaws for the Outlaws.
- [11:43]
B
Got it. But when you think about biker gangs, you hear the main name, you hear is Sonny, Hell's Angels. And you hear Mongols. Of course, you got some of the other guys.
- [11:53]
A
But I think because the Mongols have, and I mean this with all due respect, and forced their name down the throats of everybody. I had, I think they had some leadership problems initially in the 70s and the 80s, I think that they weren't prepared. They brought a challenge to us and the Hells Angels rose to that occasion. I mean, if you look the frame up motorcycle shop was a tire taken in there to have worked on by Hell's angel member. He was a prospect member at the time. And there was an explosive device. The tire was filled with dynamite. The valve stem actually was a pressure relief trigger. And when they took the valve stem out, the tire exploded, killed two, killed a Mongol and it killed his 15 year old cousin. Just weeks before that, Red Beard and Jingles, both Mongol officers were killed by a gentleman who went to prison for it, Guy Castellon out of San Diego. So by night the end of 77, the war was just full on with the Hell's Angels and the Mongols for you.
- [13:19]
B
So going back to 68, you know about it. You read the books, you know the stories. You're an outlaw, not a criminal. And then are you looking at the saying, man, I cannot believe I'm meeting Sonny in 77. Are you already in Hell's Angels?
- [13:34]
A
I am a Hell's angel member.
- [13:36]
B
So you're a member?
- [13:37]
A
I'm an official member. And I may have been vice president of Los Angeles at the time. And a few months after that, old man John, who was my mentor and turned the club over to me. He told me his exact words were, this is a young man's game. This is in Ventura, this is in Los Angeles.
- [13:59]
B
Los Angeles. So you're not Ventura yet to be the president.
- [14:01]
A
He says, I'm giving this to you.
- [14:02]
B
Okay, and we're in la. What part of Glendale? Glendale. Literally you're living in Glendale?
- [14:08]
A
Glendale. Our club, the Hell's angel clubhouse was in Glendale. The Mongol shop, the frame up was in Glendale, I believe not real close to the Hell's Angels clubhouse, but near. And that's kind of where the war kicked off in San Diego and in Glendale.
- [14:26]
B
Did you live in Glendale yourself or on and off?
- [14:29]
A
I did. I had a partner down there. Yeah. I still had a wife and a kid. And I worked. A lot of people don't know this. I worked for the Department of Defense.
- [14:38]
B
While you're part of Hell's Angels, I'm.
- [14:40]
A
The leader in the Hell's Angels. I had a top security clearance. I worked at Point Magoo and Port Huenemi, at the Pacific Missile Test center and at island of Santa Cruz. There was. It's been declassified now, so I don't have a problem talking about it. There was a secret submarine surveillance system on Santa Cruz island when we were at the midst of the Cold War with the Russians. And my job was to maintain that building, make sure it was always up along with other responsibilities, because it was a direct line to Washington, that if they saw the subs off, their subs were coming in, someone would have to make a decision. In Washington, they found out that I was president. John had turned the club over to me. 1978, they found out I was the president of the Los Angeles Hells Angels. And they brought me in the office and they said, you can't do this. This is a compromising. In your top security clearance, you either go with us or you go with them, because we're going to pull your security clearance if you don't resign from the Hell's Angels.
- [15:51]
B
So they give you the ultimatum.
- [15:52]
A
Yes. And I. I decided to stay with the Hells Angels.
- [15:55]
B
Why was that? Why'd you choose?
- [15:57]
A
Because I was an outlaw.
- [16:01]
B
Now, let me ask you, While you're doing DoD and you have secret clearance and you're a leader at Hell's Angels, are you using any of the access and information to help advance Hell's Angels?
- [16:11]
A
No, but I certainly use my experience as a Marine. I was of 311 Rifleman, and I took my tactical experience, tactical training, and applied it in the outlaw motorcycle culture.
- [16:31]
B
How did they recruit you? What was the original way somebody recruited.
- [16:35]
A
You into the Hell's Angels?
- [16:36]
B
Yes.
- [16:37]
A
Old Man John. I met Old Man John up on Kern river in the mid early 70s. And apparently he saw something in me of the Satan slaves and the question marks, introduced me to John. He invited me to the Glendale clubhouse and, you know, I just fell into it. Yeah.
- [16:57]
B
And did they see something in you? Did they say, this guy's got what it takes? We like him. Like, what was the recruitment, John?
- [17:02]
A
You know, not trying to shine the light too much on me, but I think John saw something in me, saw the discipline. John, being ex military himself, understood that we were running in a group of a bunch of undisciplined guys that needed, you know, somebody to be the patriarch, if you will, of this little clan of Hell's Angels in Los Angeles.
- [17:24]
B
So at the time when you got recruited, what year is it? 74. 70.
- [17:29]
A
75.
- [17:29]
B
Okay, so 75, you get recruited. How old are you at 75?
- [17:33]
A
I was mid-20s.
- [17:35]
B
Mid-20s. So let's say 25 years old and 75. How did you go from a rookie guy coming on board to 78 going to Sonny's place? You. You rode up with the. With. With bikes and motorcycles. You head up to him, and then all of a sudden, to be the number two guy, conciliary, president of Ventura County. How does that happen? How did you maneuver your way up to that kind of power?
- [18:00]
A
Well, maybe the Forrest Gump of the outlaw bike world. I just.
- [18:04]
B
How would I hear about you? They tell me you're the intellectual. Well, they told me you're the strategic. You're the brains. You were the. You were the guy that was extremely intentional, you know, strategic. You know, like, you know, when you think about the original mobsters, you think about what Ben Siegel did, what Frank Costello, who was a networker, great at going and creating the relationship. You know, you have Lucky, who was more the visionary. What he saw, he can do. But then it was Meyer Lansky. Meyer Lansky was like, the brains is like, what if we do this and what if we do that? So you've been compared to some interesting people in the.
- [18:39]
A
Well, you know, it's interesting. Julian Shear wrote the book Hell's Angels, Angels of Death, I think it's called. And in the book, he says, you know, law enforcement perceives you as the Al Capone of Ventura. He goes, how do you.
- [18:55]
B
Al Capone?
- [18:56]
A
Yeah. He goes, how do you take that? And I said, well, I'm going to take it as a compliment. What else could you do? You know, I'm honored.
- [19:03]
B
Thank you so much for this compliment.
- [19:07]
A
You know, that's the book there. Inside the Bikers Global Criminal Empire is. They're investigative reporters from Canada. And he, you know, he came to the house, he was very pensive. He says, I want to interview you. And I. I had permission from the club, I could do any interviews I wanted. I said, if you want to interview me, you have to come to the house.
- [19:30]
B
At that time. How powerful are you?
- [19:32]
A
Probably at the peak of my power.
- [19:34]
B
Really? So, yeah, so this is early 2000s.
- [19:37]
A
Early to mid 2000s, 2002, or 2003, we just had the shootout at Laughlin, in the casino, at Harrods Casino. And I thought it was kind of ballsy of him, you know, I, I. And I did it. I was being kind of a smart ass. I go, you want to interview me, Julian? He said, yeah. I said, well, you'll have to come to my house. And I didn't think he'd come. And he came and he actually came, and he. When the book came Out. He brought me a book, and he. He signed it Julian Sheer. And he put to my favorite angel of Death. So I don't know whether that was a.
- [20:13]
B
Did you feel he was nervous or did. Was poison?
- [20:16]
A
I think he. He was pensive. And then I think he became relaxed. At that time, I was living in a house that had been in my family for 100 years. Had been. My grandfather bought it when he came from Greece.
- [20:30]
B
So you're not living a lavish lifestyle?
- [20:32]
A
No, I. I lived in the same house. It was, but it was very unique. It was like a museum within the house. And I think as he spent the afternoon there, he became very relaxed, and it was interesting. He also went to Sonny Barger. Sonny invited him to his house, and he showed up at Sonny's house in Arizona. So he interviewed myself in my house and interviewed Sonny at his house.
- [20:57]
B
At this time. Are you and Sonny good? Because I know later on.
- [21:00]
A
No, it works. And the book is part of the problem with the falling out.
- [21:05]
B
Oh, you got to be kidding me. So the book. Okay, so now let's go back, because I want to know.
- [21:10]
A
So.
- [21:10]
B
So think about it from this standpoint, because I think the. The game of power happens in politics, happens in outlaws, happens in the mob, happens in business, happens in sports. It happens everywhere. Right. Where you know somebody, you look at. I know Sonny Francis, you know, Michael Francis.
- [21:29]
A
Michael. Well, I was in prison with him.
- [21:31]
B
Really? I don't know. You guys are time together? Yeah, I don't know that.
- [21:34]
A
Yeah, 1986.
- [21:37]
B
So Michael would always tell me his dad said to him, michael, be careful with the young guys, right? And he says, why, dad? He says, because the young guys that are coming up are one day going to be the bosses, right? So he says, be. Be careful, because that could happen. You want to make sure they'll remember how you treated them when they had little to no power.
- [21:56]
A
And, you know, I'll add something. Sometimes they don't care.
- [22:00]
B
The young guys.
- [22:00]
A
Yeah, they're sitting on top. You know, they're making decisions. You know, is this guy gonna help me? Is this guy gonna hurt me? What should I do with this guy? And the decisions like that are made in the club. You know, the club's not really supposed to be structured like that, but people have human frailties and, you know, egos. We all do power, whatever it may be. But Sonny and I were on great terms. And then I started. I had a different vision than Sonny had for the club. And what you have to understand is back in 1989, the feds 88, 89. The fed sent a gentleman named Anthony Tony Tate to set Hell's Angels up. He had been a Hell's Angel.
- [22:45]
B
Name? Anthony. Tony.
- [22:47]
A
Anthony Tony Tate. And if you look him up, you'll see he was FBI informant, but he was also a Hell's Angel. And, you know, Sonny Barger wound up buying into him. Got convicted of conspiring to commit murder with him, went to prison for almost four years in Arizona. And Sonny had made a very tactical mistake. What he did was he had introduced as Tony Tate making his rise in power. He had introduced him as the Hells Angels of the future. And it turns out he's an FBI informer.
- [23:28]
B
So Tony Tate was like a Joe Pistone, Donnie Barrasco.
- [23:31]
A
Exactly.
- [23:31]
B
And how long was he in there? How long was he.
- [23:33]
A
Right from the beginning, he'd been in the club probably four years. Four years undercover?
- [23:38]
B
85.
- [23:39]
A
Yeah, 85. 83 maybe. I think 85, most likely.
- [23:42]
B
And then, and then when he came, who brought him in? Did Sonny bring him in?
- [23:46]
A
Well, not really, but Sonny embraced him. Got it.
- [23:48]
B
And with Sonny embraces, you get all the power?
- [23:50]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [23:51]
B
How did you come up as a young guy? How did you get the power?
- [23:55]
A
Kind of just fought my way. I, I, you know, I have a saying in one of my books. To be an effective peacemaker, you have to be willing to go to war. And that was kind of my philosophy. I was strictly for peace, which was a very unpopular position in the outlaw bike world, because everybody's aggressive in that world, and they thrive off of egos and whatnot. But I, you know, it can be vicious. You know, the political arena is very dangerous in the Hells Angels as it is in, you know, organized crime. Political are, you know, Democrats and Republicans, whatever it may be.
- [24:37]
B
You know, were you more feared, respected, or liked?
- [24:42]
A
Well, I don't know. You know, I really, really don't know. I think there was. How can you have respect without fear? I think it, you know, you got to have a little fear.
- [24:57]
B
What do you think is more important between the three, especially in that world? Probably applies to everything else as well.
- [25:03]
A
Probably fear.
- [25:04]
B
Fear number one.
- [25:05]
A
Yeah, I think so. And I'm just being honest. I. I don't know if I've ever said that publicly before, but people fear you. It gives you the sword to wield around, because they go, this guy's armed with a sword, and he will use it if he has to.
- [25:22]
B
How did you gain fear as a reputation? Because you said the only way to be a peacemaker, you have to be willing to go to war. So how do you gain that level of fear that people don't even want to go to war with you?
- [25:32]
A
Well, some of it's anticipation, some of it's legendary, some of it's gossip. You know, anybody that does anything illegal in their right mind doesn't talk about it. And I think sometimes unspoken words are louder than people screaming it, you know.
- [25:53]
B
But how do you build that reputation though? I mean, you gotta build it, right? I mean there's gotta be. Because like, for example, you know, you look at Trump, he's like, if you do this, I'm gonna bomb Iran. And Iran's like, last time he said this, he killed our number two guy, right? So you gotta almost believe him. So, so how did you build that fear for people to say, when George says something, he's going to follow through?
- [26:14]
A
That's a hard question to answer.
- [26:17]
B
We like asking hard questions.
- [26:18]
A
I know you do, and you're asking them well, but I don't think I want to go any deeper than I. You know, my daughter's an attorney and every time I come to do a.
- [26:29]
B
She tells you, don't do it that way.
- [26:30]
A
Every time I come to do an interview by someone, you know, I know you like to ask the hard questions. And she gives me a little pep talk and a lecture and so she always tells me, you know, dad, you can always take the Fifth.
- [26:47]
B
But maybe share what has already been told that is not like is going to be held against you. Like what is public information that you've already done the crime.
- [26:59]
A
Okay.
- [26:59]
B
That you can share.
- [27:00]
A
Well, I'm going to share this with you and I. Was it a crime? Perhaps it was a crime. It was more of a, a journey and a appointment to do something. A lot of people think once you get in the Hell's Angels that, you know, you're prospecting or you know, the time when they evaluate what your worth is doesn't end when you become a member. And when I became a member, there was a bomb planted. There was two bombs planted at the frame up. The first bomb didn't go off. And I walked in on an impromptu meeting of these gentlemen talking about conspiring to blow that up. And I explained I'd just come out of the Marines, I worked for the DOD at the time. And I was explaining collateral damage to him. I said, you know, you put a bomb somewhere, you've got no control over the casualties. You know, it was called collateral damage. And a couple of the guys didn't even know what collateral Damage was they were very offended that I told them I thought they were taking the wrong approach to this war with the Mongols. I left the meeting. I said, I don't want anything to do with this. You know, this is, you know, you're a member.
- [28:17]
B
You left the meeting?
- [28:17]
A
Yeah. I said, I don't want to talk about this.
- [28:19]
B
This is when you're still with the dod?
- [28:20]
A
Yes, I'm with the dod. So late Hell's Angel? Yeah, late to. I'm a Hells angel leader at the time or I think, no, I wasn't. I was just had voted in as a member but they didn't like the position I took. The bomb they planted didn't go off. And Old Man John called me, said I want you to come down here, I want to talk to you. And I went to Old Man John and he told me, you're going to go retrieve the bomb that didn't go off. And I said, why am I going to retrieve it? I go, I didn't make the bomb. I don't even know what kind of trigger mechanisms on it. I don't know anything. I said, I'm not going to talk to those guys about it. And he said, well, some people are starting to have second thoughts about you because you questioned us taking the posture of war. And he said, you're going to go get it and then you're going to take it to a place that we call the Armory in downtown Los Angeles. This is no secret. The police found it. We had 2,000 pounds of dynamite, a British anti tank rifle, machine guns, pistols with silencers. He said, you're going to take it, retrieve the bomb. It was like maybe eight sticks of dynamite or whatever it was. He said, you're going to retrieve the bomb, you're going to take it back and leave it there and the guys that built it will come and dismantle it. Because I wouldn't do it. I think acts like that make people realize that, you know, you're sincere. I mean I basically went over retrieved a bomb that I didn't know what went wrong. I didn't know how it was put together. I didn't know who put it together and retrieved it and took it back to the armory and left it. You know, people start talking about stuff like that. This guy had the nerve to go get that bomb and get it. You know. Another situation was we talked about the Outlaws a little bit earlier. When I decided I wanted to end the war or try to end the war between the Outlaws and the Hells Angels, I Showed up at Taco Bowman's motel room unannounced, 15, 20 outlaws there. And, you know, they'd already killed several Hell's Angels. And I just. I showed up there, I said, I'm here to talk to you about peace. And he just kind of shook his head. He goes, just show up here. And I said, well, I knew you were here, and I wanted to talk to you. And I think acts like that, where you put the club, interest before your own, creates interest in you. Members will be willing to follow you. This guy go, you know, he puts his money where his mouth is.
- [31:12]
B
To me, those two things would make me like you and respect you, but not fear you.
- [31:18]
A
Okay. Because, you know, you're not giving up, are you?
- [31:21]
B
No, I'm not. No. But. And I'm. And I'm saying that because, you know, like, if I talk to Sammy and you hear why, you know, Sammy maybe was feared in the streets or Leonetti would tell stories about Nikki Scarfo. And I had Leonetti on. On the podcast. He flew in, and we did a interview together. Six years ago, there were some of these guys that were enforcers, right, that put the fear of death on other people. Well, maybe. Let me ask a different question. When you first met Sonny and you said you had read about him in 68, right? So you kind of knew that he was a outlaw, serious guy. What were the. And you said something earlier. You said, you know, it's reputation legends, right? Legends that people talk. Because when you commit a crime, you don't typically talk about it. So you still have to find a way for people to find out what you did and how ruthless you are. There's benefit for people knowing you're a bit ruthless.
- [32:17]
A
In that world.
- [32:17]
B
Yes, in that world.
- [32:19]
A
And maybe the legitimate world.
- [32:21]
B
In the legitimate world as well. In business as well as in politics, there is no question. Military, you need a little bit of that. What made Sonny so powerful? What was his reputation?
- [32:35]
A
Well, I think there's a history of missing members, members that are dead. You know, nobody knows they're unsolved murders. People speculate. You know, I have some inside information, because Paul Animal Hibbets was a very powerful Oakland Hell's Angels, allegedly. And according to Paul, when I asked him about it, he had hotshotted Terry the Tramp for Sonny's orders, behest of Sonny. Sonny didn't like him. He was jealous of him for whatever reason. I think that people in the club didn't talk about it, but people knew, you know, that Sonny had ordered that Stork turned up missing. There was another member. His name escapes me. Allegedly had stolen a coin collection from Sonny.
- [33:41]
B
You know, a member.
- [33:42]
A
A member? Yeah, he was killed. So, you know, these things happen. You know, Russell, Bea. I mentioned him earlier. I told you he was a very powerful member. Well, his expiration date came up one day. Somebody walked up to his door and shot him nine times. Nobody knows, really. I mean, people narrowed it down to Irish o' Farrell and to Sergey Walton. They were the one of these guys shot him is what everybody figured out. You know, despite what people think, you know, Sammy the Bull has a luxury now of made a deal with the government. I'm not judging that. That's his business, whatever he wants to do. But he has immunity now, and he talks about crimes he did or perhaps crimes he didn't do freely because he's got to deal with the government. People in that world I lived in, you know, nobody knew for sure who shot Russell Bayer. Was it Irish or was it Sergey?
- [34:50]
B
Who's Irish? Who's Sergey? Are they.
- [34:52]
A
They're both dead.
- [34:53]
B
They're both dead.
- [34:55]
A
Irish was murdered. Sergei crossed Sonny, and I think there was a hit ordered on him. I write about it in my latest book. There was a hit on him in prison, and he went to witness protection program.
- [35:12]
B
This is Sergey.
- [35:13]
A
Sergey, yeah. Sergey was. No, Sergey passed away a couple years ago.
- [35:17]
B
Naturally.
- [35:18]
A
Naturally.
- [35:18]
B
Okay.
- [35:19]
A
Yeah. Irish was murdered in 1989, right after Sonny and him were convicted of the conspiracy to kill the outlaws. The was set up by Tony Tate. It gets very convoluted and complicated. You almost need a program to follow these situations that happen when you profile.
- [35:40]
B
Different leaders, you'll see different way they are. Like, you'll say, ooh, that guy's extremely jealous. He is extremely envious. If anybody else gets more attention than me. That guy's just flat out ice cold ruthless. Okay? He's a deal maker. As long as he makes money, he's happy. He's not killing nobody. That guy is, you know, extremely brilliant, strategic and, you know, he's the kind of guy that'll look at your face and smile and you'll walk away saying, I just had a great meeting with Bobby. Thirty minutes later, he shoots you in the head. Right. So what was Sonny? What was his profile? Because you've spent a lot of time with him.
- [36:22]
A
Yeah. You know, Sonny's a very complicated man. I'm going to give you an example of. If it wasn't Sonny's idea, it wasn't a good idea. No matter if it benefited everybody or not. I had been trying to resolve the Nordic Bike War. The Bandidos and the Hells Angels were fighting in the Scandinavian countries, and they were very well equipped. And I. You know, I know it's difficult or can be difficult to get guns in some of the European countries. And I was, how are these guys getting these rocket launchers? They're shooting rockets in each other's clubhouses. They're armed with automatic weapons, handguns, grenades and whatnot. Well, I find out that each town has a militia, and at the end of the town, there's a armory, and the armory is secured with just a paddle lock. So these clubs are going around, popping these padlocks, and they're arming themselves. I had negotiated with George Wegers, who was. He's no longer alive. He was the international leader of the Bandidos at the time. We were at odds with each other when we first started negotiating. I became very close friends with him as time passed. And we negotiated a peace between the Hells Angels and the Bandidos in Europe. We didn't want. We were doing it for selfish reasons. We didn't want the war to bleed into the United States because it would have just been a mess. And my position was it was just something that the feds would have loved. You know, we're in the United States now, killing each other. I've always had suspicion at some point in time, the government is going to go after all these motorcycle clubs, Indonesia and their trademarks and whatnot. And that was one of the things that I was worried about. But I had negotiated with George Wegers. George Wegers and I were on great, you know, great terms, great relationship. And George Wegers and I made an agreement, and he had mapped out a map with a United States map and mapped out an area and then signed it. And he said, as long as he was leader of the Bandidos, this would be the area. They wouldn't encroach on our areas. We had an area marked out. I took that map to the meeting, to officers meeting, and Sonny was there, and I petitioned him to come with me to this meeting. I said, let's all agree to this. Here in the room was all filled with Hells angel presidents. I go, let's agree to this. Let's go meet George Wegers together with his delegation of Bandidos. And I said, let's secure this. And I go, this is good for the Hells Angels. And I said, if Sonny Barger walks into that room with me, I go, they'll give me Whatever we want. And he thought about it, he wouldn't give me an answer. And so I shelved it. The end of the meeting came. I said, sonny, what are we going to do? You're going to come? And he goes, you know what? I'm not going. And I said, why? I go, this benefits to the Hell's Angels. Why won't you go? And he told me, he goes, because I just don't like them. And he was willing to keep the war going to create more conflicts. My position was I didn't want to see any more Hells Angels in court, ultimately in prison, or finally in a graveyard. And he just. He didn't care. That's the attitude Sonny had, and people knew it. And if you crossed him, you didn't know what he was going to do. Terry the trampoline, Harry the horse. I mean, these are people upstart. These are people that. They're still. Unsolved murders. It's now, this stuff happened in the 70s. If you look, the decade of the 70s was very difficult for Hell's Angels. There's a lot of unsolved murders still to this day. They're not solved. Tiny, the guy's 6, 6, 350 pounds. He vanishes in the thin air.
- [40:45]
B
It's a tough guy to vanish.
- [40:46]
A
Yeah. A big guy to vanish. So when you have acts of violence like this, of whether real or imagined, you know, did Tiny disappear or did he.
- [41:01]
B
What was Tiny's name? Tiny.
- [41:03]
A
I just knew him by Tiny.
- [41:04]
B
That's it.
- [41:04]
A
That's it.
- [41:05]
B
You know, it was in Hell's Angels.
- [41:06]
A
He was a Hell's Angel. He was vice president.
- [41:09]
B
Can you see who? Tiny. Hell's Angels.
- [41:11]
A
Six' six, Oakland.
- [41:13]
B
Oakland.
- [41:14]
A
Because there were three tinies in the Hell's Angels. So.
- [41:19]
B
Go to images. Yep. Is it Tiny Walters?
- [41:24]
A
That's him.
- [41:26]
B
Six, six. Famously vanished after the 1969 film Hell's Angel. 69. Can you pull up his image, Rob, see what he looks like?
- [41:37]
A
He fell on one of the Oakland protesters. When Sonny and the Oakland Hells Angels went to disrupt the Vietnam Peace March, Tiny fell on one of the. There he is. Right there in the lower left hand corner. There he is. He fell on one of the Oakland police officers and broke his leg. He didn't do it intentionally. It was just. That's how big he was. Yeah.
- [42:03]
B
So he disappears.
- [42:04]
A
He disappears.
- [42:05]
B
So Sonny. Can you pull up Sonny's picture so we can see what he looks like? Sonny lived a full life. He died at 83. Yeah, that's Sonny right there. Born October 8, 1938. So the first time you meet him, when you roll up to his place, 1978, you've been there now for four years, you've been a member. And when you walk up to him, see him for the first time, what was he talking to you about? What was your impression of him? Were you impressed? Were you like, oh, my God, I can't believe I'm meeting my hero?
- [42:33]
A
We talked about war with the Mongols, talked about my political rise. He, he had an interesting philosophy. We, not that particular day, but in the future day we started talking about members. And he said, you had a pretty good run here, George. He goes, you know, you get. You came a long way fast. And he goes, you know, a lot of these guys, he goes, they come here and he goes, I let them burn themselves out. He goes, just filler for us. And I said, well, you know, I said, I don't really want to take that posture about a brother. And that was how he saw people. He didn't care. You know, people were expendable to him. And it's, you know, it's obvious by the things that happen. Tiny was a. He was part of Hell's Angels 69. That movie Terry the Tramp was very popular in that movie Hell's Angels 69, Terry the Tramp was a very flamboyant, and he kind of stole the show in Hell's Angel 69. And he wound up with a hotshot. You know what a hot shot is? Hotshot. If somebody has a propensity to use narcotics, like to shoot them intravenously. You can mix up a special concoction and they shoot themselves with it and it like collapses their lungs and they. They wind up Odin is what they do. And that's how Tiny died. Animal. I got off track, Paul Animal Hibbets and I. He confessed to me in 19, probably 77 or 78, that he. He was there when the hot shot was given to Terry.
- [44:22]
B
He was there present when he was present?
- [44:23]
A
Yeah.
- [44:24]
B
And who gave it to him? Was it coming a shot coming from Sunny?
- [44:28]
A
Well, it came from Sunny. Sonny wasn't there. He sent over Animal. And Animal never told me who his accomplish accomplice was. I was told later that it was Bobby Dirt that had assisted him.
- [44:42]
B
You guys know how to pick names? Yeah, we got some names, legit name.
- [44:46]
A
And, you know, I want to tell you a funny story and then we'll get back on this in court in 2002.
- [44:53]
B
Is that Bobby Dirt?
- [44:54]
A
Bobby the Dirt. In 2002, a judge superior Court judge of Ventura ruled that it was perfectly realistic to think that Hell's Angels only went by monikers. Because the district attorney was saying, this is. I want to know their exact names. I said, I don't know his name. You know, and can you imagine?
- [45:19]
B
But what's your name, by the way? Honestly, I forgot my own name. I just know.
- [45:24]
A
And how convenient.
- [45:25]
B
Yeah. In the military, we used to call each other by our last name. When I was in the army, it was not like you would talk to Mendoza. I'm like, what's your first name? We don't even know your first name. Always last name. But David Jones, Mendoza, Tucker. It was always a. A The last name we'd go by. So you meet him the first time. 78. For how long did you guys have a good relationship together?
- [45:49]
A
It was on and off. The first time I defied him was, I want to say early 80s. And he had gotten mad. He had petitioned me to go talk to a group of guys. He wanted a guy back in the club that had been pushed out, a gentleman by the name of Rotten Richard. There's another Rotten Richard. And he wanted him back in the club. And Sonny sent me as an emissary to go talk to these group of people. And it kind of has an ironic ending. At the meeting, we have this big meeting, and the guys say, he'll never, ever be back in the Hells Angels, ever. And Sonny publicly is starting. People are starting to publicly argue with Sonny, which I think that's something that didn't happen a lot. And Sonny said, well, you know what, man? You guys are making a big mistake because he's a good dude. And these guys said, no, he's rotten. That's why he got the name Rotten Richard. And they didn't want him back in the club. He had been involved in a double homicide at a Hell's angel clubhouse, killing members. These were two gentlemen that came from either Georgia or Texas, I can't remember, and they wanted to become Hells Angels. And we used to have what we call the acid test. You give people LSD and they'll talk. They'll talk. See how they hold their mud? And one of the guys went over the deep end, and they were trying to restrain him. They killed him accidentally. And so what do they do with his partner, you know? And order came down. Well, one guy's got to go. The other guy's got to go. They wound up killing two Hells Angels. There was a gentleman named Whispering Bill Pfeiffer that had throat cancer. He Got arrested for something unrelated along with his son. And he said, how'd you like to solve a couple of murders? And he directed them to go to George Baby Huey Weatherin's house and his ranch. And he said, check the well. At the bottom of the well, you're going to find two bodies. And they were the gentlemen that got killed at the clubhouse and then taken and buried in this burial ground, I think is how they described it. Now, you talk about the Mongols earlier. What started the conflict with the Mongols? One of the people you had, Whisper and Bill Pfeiffer. But you had an additional informant, Chester Green, he was a Hells angel as well. He gets kicked out of the club for testifying against other members. That's the gold, the golden rule. Instead of going into the witness protection program like Whisper and Bill did, he goes down to Long beach and becomes a Mongol. And that was part of the problem between the Hells Angels and the Mongols. The cops always say it started over the California bottom rocker. That was just part of the problem. You know, you've got Chester Green, former Hells Angel Bay area member who testified against the Hells Angels. Now, as a Mongol member, you've got a Bud Green. His brother runs off with a Hell's Angels. Chester right there runs off with a Hell's Angels ex wife.
- [49:42]
B
That's never good.
- [49:43]
A
That's never good. And so he gets killed. No, he, he winds up. The first night we had a physical problem with the Mongols. The Hell's Angels and Bud Green see each other. Never, never said a word. One, the Hell's angel hits Bud Green. A fight breaks out and it's 60 Hell's Angels fighting, excuse me, 60 Mongols fighting nine Hell's Angels. We got in this fight. The reason they had such a accurate count is one of the Hell's Angels with us is also a government informant. So his handlers were at that fight.
- [50:30]
B
God. And they reported 60 to 9.
- [50:33]
A
Yes. And what, they had to make a split decision. Do we intercede and blow the COVID or do we let them fight it out? And they just, they chose to let him fight it out. Anybody get killed or no. The police, a rookie cop came into the middle of the fight with a six shot revolver. And I remember looking at his gun, I was there, I remember looking at his gun and I'm thinking, well, he's only got six shots, but I don't think.
- [51:04]
B
63 of us will make it.
- [51:06]
A
Yeah, but I, I, I, he broke up the fight and. Pretty brave police officer. I mean, here you got this Is what city?
- [51:14]
B
This is where.
- [51:15]
A
This is in Orange County.
- [51:17]
B
What part we're in Orange County?
- [51:18]
A
I don't know. It was at the, like, Great Western exhibit. It was one of these. These places. And what was going on was a new event we're starting. They were called bike swap meets. And that's what it was. It was a bike swap meet, you know, which I thought was a terrible idea because they have these bands, they have all these motorcycle parts on the floor, and they're selling beer, and everybody's bringing in whiskey and pouring whiskey into their beer. It was just a recipe. Yeah, it was a recipe for disaster, you know? And so is this.
- [51:54]
B
Is this where you're seeing. At what point are you like. I don't know if I like the Sonny guy, and I don't know if, you know, I can align with him. And you guys have two different ways of doing things. You know, you kind of want to make it, you know, an independent, decentralized way of running. He wants to run it like an empire.
- [52:12]
A
Let me tell you something. You said something really interesting. You know, I never really made up my mind. You know, sometimes I loved him, sometimes I hated him. You know, he was like family to me. He was a mentor to me. I didn't agree with him. You know, him and I got in an argument one time, and he told me. He goes, you know what, George? Because I burn every bridge I cross. And he said that? Yeah, he told me that. He said, I burn every bridge I cross. And I said, well, you know, as a military man and an ex department defense worker, I said, I think I would leave at least one bridge for supplies or for retreat, depending on the situation. And he said, no, I don't care. And I think ultimately, I think Sonny. Sonny saw the club as something that belonged to him. Other members saw themselves as part of a club, and I think that's a distinction, as leaders. Sonny didn't make that distinction. This club was his as far as he was concerned. Terry the Tramp outshines him in a movie. Give him a hot shot, you know, get rid of that guy.
- [53:20]
B
That's unbelievable.
- [53:21]
A
Yeah, it is, but it's the truth.
- [53:23]
B
You know, was he. Was he a gambler? Was he a drinker? Was he a womanizer? Which one? What. What would.
- [53:28]
A
What was his. He had a weakness for women, but he didn't chase women. I never saw him chasing women. But I'll tell you a little story. He was taken to an underground nightclub in the Bay Area where there was live sex acts being performed. And he fell in love with the. The star of the show. So I've been warned not to talk about her.
- [54:00]
B
So there's a life performance going on.
- [54:02]
A
Yeah.
- [54:03]
B
And he falls in love with them girl. You know who John McAfee is?
- [54:08]
A
Yeah, John McAfee, sure. Yeah. He's. He's. He died in Spain and.
- [54:11]
B
Died in Spain. Do you know his latest wife? How he fell in love with his wife? Do you know this?
- [54:15]
A
I have no idea. But I bet you're going to like.
- [54:17]
B
Me right now if I tell you this story. You will not. I don't even know if I want to tell this story. Rob. Do you know the story or no? You shaking your head like you know the story?
- [54:26]
A
Yeah.
- [54:28]
B
What's the story?
- [54:28]
A
Rob the Hammocks.
- [54:30]
B
So he goes, he pays her as a prostitute to please him. And he walks out. He says, this is the great. He says, I said, they asked him, said, when did you know you were going to marry her? He says, I've never met anybody. They gave me as good of a BJ as she did. That's when I knew she was my wife. So you're saying to me Sonny was kind of like a John McAfee?
- [54:53]
A
Perhaps. And you know, I'm going to tell you this. He did wind up marrying that girl.
- [54:57]
B
Stop it. No, he didn't kill the other guy that was performing.
- [55:02]
A
I. I don't know what happened to him, but he did marry the girl. They moved to Arizona together. And it was revealed in, I'm going to say 2002 or 2003. Not only was sending her estranged, ultimately. Is this Z?
- [55:20]
B
Is this.
- [55:21]
A
No, this is not Z. This is Noel.
- [55:25]
B
I know Noel as well.
- [55:26]
A
Okay.
- [55:26]
B
I've read about her.
- [55:27]
A
She was a paid FBI informant.
- [55:29]
B
Noel was?
- [55:30]
A
Yes.
- [55:31]
B
So was he.
- [55:32]
A
Well, I, I think Z was, but I don't have proof. I have. I have my gut.
- [55:36]
B
So wait, Noel is the one that's doing live performance and was a informant?
- [55:41]
A
Yeah, well, later she became an informant. She was later on getting paid a thousand dollars a week to give information to the FBI.
- [55:49]
B
Wow. He had no clue.
- [55:50]
A
He had no clue. Well, I, I hope he didn't said.
- [55:53]
B
Maybe he did and he was, you know, I mean, was he an informant or. No. Himself.
- [55:57]
A
Well, you know, nobody. There's people that speculate now, and I think it's unfair to do that. He's not here. I don't. You know, there are people out there that say that he did inappropriate things.
- [56:08]
B
What are you doing there with Tony Robbins? Evented or. There is no affiliation between the two, there may be.
- [56:16]
A
And we may uncover it right now. No, but what.
- [56:19]
B
Is that her? Yes, sir. That's Noel in the middle. Okay, so she's very attractive. And this was who? This was his wife?
- [56:28]
A
Yes.
- [56:29]
B
So they get married.
- [56:30]
A
Yes.
- [56:30]
B
And you met Noel.
- [56:32]
A
Yes.
- [56:32]
B
How was she to you when you meet her?
- [56:34]
A
Very cordial. But, you know, you have to understand there's a rule, you know, and you mess with somebody's lady in the Hells Angels, you get not only kicked out, God only knows what else happens. And, you know, Iverso, Pharaoh was the one that said it. He. He made a comment, you know, he said, there's only a couple of hundred women you can't chase in the United States. He goes, it's not that hard. And somebody said, maybe they should wear a black armband.
- [57:08]
B
What a great line, though. You know, you got 100 women to choose from. Just leave these 200 alone.
- [57:13]
A
Yeah. So you know, Sonny, there was a woman. I can't think of her name. It's the Phoenix magazine. She did a very provocative story. Sonny. Sonny had a. Sonny liked attention, you know. Him and I got in a big argument one time. He did an interview in Rolling Stone magazine. Unbeknownst to him. Rolling Stone magazine really didn't like the Hell's Angels after the Altamont incident. And he did this story in Rolling Stone, very provocative about murders. There you go.
- [57:53]
B
1972.
- [57:55]
A
Well, no, this is a 1979. Master's a menace. Michael Douglas is on the COVID if I recall correctly. Mine's not as sharp as it used to be, but I. It. Masters of Menace. And it's, you know.
- [58:16]
B
Is that it?
- [58:17]
A
That's it.
- [58:17]
B
79.
- [58:18]
A
Masters of Menace, 1979.
- [58:20]
B
This infamous gank has traded its colors and cycles for dark suits and Lincoln Continentals. What do they mean?
- [58:26]
A
Well, I never drove a Continental. I drove a Cadillac.
- [58:29]
B
You did. I'd rather have a Cadillac than a Continental.
- [58:32]
A
There you go.
- [58:33]
B
Yeah. Any day the week, El Dorado.
- [58:35]
A
Thank you. You know, he did that article, and he did it without permission of the club. And, you know, I. This is one of the first times I confronted him in the meeting. I said, you know, Ralph, I said, if you would have followed protocol and brought it up in the meeting. Here I go. You would have realized he didn't read Rolling Stone magazine. I said, you would have realized that since Altamont, there's been a series of negative, you know, stories from these Rolling Stone investigators. I'm sorry. That's Sonny's name.
- [59:09]
B
That's his real name.
- [59:10]
A
That's what I called him.
- [59:11]
B
But that's his real name.
- [59:12]
A
Real name. Hey, Ralph. And. And, you know, how long did it.
- [59:16]
B
Take until you guys had that kind of a relationship? You meet him? 78. When did you guys become super close?
- [59:21]
A
Probably in 1982 when he said, I'm dying of cancer. And he goes, I want you and Irish to take over an Irish. And Irish was a Los Angeles Hells angel now. Irish was now a very powerful Oakland Hells angel who took Sonny's place. So Irish and I had a special relationship that if Sonny maybe had done a little bit more vetting, he would have understood our relationship. We were very close, and we. Irish and I had an inside joke that Sonny was so big and so popular that it took two of us to replace him because he turned over. He said, george, you and Irish are going to do the interviews from now on. They're cutting my voice box out. I'm not going to be able to communicate. You know, he had cancer. Correct. They. They cut out his voice box, and he had to learn to talk again.
- [60:19]
B
How bad was it?
- [60:21]
A
They didn't think he was going to make it.
- [60:22]
B
But was he able to communicate?
- [60:23]
A
He did, yeah. He yelled at me more than once with that voice box. He placed his thumb over the box, and he. He could generate, you know, certainly mechanical voice, but to me, sounded like Sonny's voice. It was still. Sounded like Sonny's noise. I knew Sonny's commanding. It was very commanding. And he would just. The veins in his neck would pop out from straining, and I think you can. There's some stuff on the Internet. You can hear him. And he very seldom did interviews after that. I talked him into doing a interview in 2000, no, 1988 or 89, called In Search of the Hell's Angels. And Sonny and I were the hosts of this show. It's. We hadn't done a big TV show in a long time, and we were on the show. Hunter Thompson was on the show. And.
- [61:26]
B
When we set out to create a shoe that blends comfort, function, and luxury, we had the choice to make it fast. We had the choice to make it cheap. We chose neither. Instead, we chose to. In Italy, we chose true Italian craftsmanship. Each pair touched by 50 skilled hands. We chose patience, spending two years perfecting every detail. And we chose the finest quality at every step. Introducing the future. Looks bright. Collection. Not rushed. Not disposable. Not ordinary. Rather intentional. Luxurious. Timeless.
- [62:11]
A
There's somebody right there talking.
- [62:13]
B
And which show is this?
- [62:14]
A
This is In Search of the Hell's Angels, I think.
- [62:16]
B
Let me see it, Robbie.
- [62:20]
A
Advertising their clothing in an ad in their book that helps fetus. But I don't have any one bit thing that makes me a lot about.
- [62:30]
B
Was he a smoker?
- [62:31]
A
A lot of three times a day. That made me a fairly. And then became an advocate for Dr. After this.
- [62:39]
B
How dramatically did he change after he got cancer? Did he change? Did he become softer? Did he become more gentle? Did he become more.
- [62:44]
A
No, he seemed like he hadn't. Changes a damn bit. I'll tell you the tenacity on this guy. You figure he comes back from prison in 94, maybe 93. I can't remember exactly. He does four years, he goes back to Oakland, and he's. I want to do this. I want to do this. I want to do this. He gets shut down because what you have to understand, here's the guy that. How good is his judgment? He's the guy that said Tony Tate was the Hells Angels of the future. And he decimated, you know, the Oakland charter. Chico goes to jail for 40 years. Kenny Owens goes to jail for 41 years. Cruzy does 18 years, gets deported as soon as he gets out. So you have all these things that impacted the charter because Sonny endorsed somebody. And, you know, perhaps it's not fair for me to lay it out that way, but that's the facts, and that's the truth. But he packs up and goes to Arizona and starts over. This guy's 70 years old, and he packs up, goes to Arizona, makes the Dirty Dozen, turns the Dirty Dozen into Hell's Angels. So now he's got a complete state that he's completely dominant of.
- [64:15]
B
And does he take Noel with him or is he with Z at this point?
- [64:18]
A
He takes Noel with him.
- [64:20]
B
And how loyal did Noel stay to him?
- [64:23]
A
Well, she took a thousand dollars a week from the FBI.
- [64:26]
B
I'm talking loyal like other men. Like, you know.
- [64:29]
A
Oh, I think she was loyal to him.
- [64:30]
B
She was loyal.
- [64:31]
A
Yeah, I think she was. Absolutely.
- [64:33]
B
That's respect at least. She was loyal. That's good.
- [64:35]
A
Yeah. Several thousand dollars a week from the FBI. Yeah.
- [64:39]
B
So. So when Noel's going through that and he's going through his time, if he's doing so much harm to everybody, how come nobody kills him? How come he lives till 83? How does he live till 83?
- [64:50]
A
Well, I think that I'm gonna. I'm gonna say something here that a lot of people know the Hell's angel history and perhaps are watching this, because that's. But it's not When I was in Spain, I was told that he was this close to getting voted out of the club for all of his antics over the years. And I'm not supposed to talk to anybody in the Hell's Angels. I'm out bad. I'm at odds with them. They're not allowed to talk to me. But I continue to get correspondence from Hell's Angels. Ask me my opinion of things, and what do you think about this? And do you think we ought to do that? And they wrote me and said, we're going to kick Sonny Barger out of the club. What do you think? And my response to them, whether it impacted them or didn't impact them, my response to them was, that's the stupidest thing you guys could ever do. I go, here's a guy you followed for 63 years, and now you're going to kick him out of the club because you think he's a clown? I go, what kind of message is that to the outlaw bike culture? I go, sit on your hands, man, and just let it go and don't give them free reign. And I, you know, that's what they ultimately did. Did it have anything to do with George Christie? I doubt it.
- [66:08]
B
But why did nobody kill him, though?
- [66:11]
A
I don't know. Maybe they were afraid, maybe. Was he, you know, killing, you know, saying that's. That's a very. And I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, but that's a cavalier statement. Why didn't somebody just kill him?
- [66:24]
B
I mean, well, if you think about, like, Paul Castellano would make the money and he would keep the money, right? And then they're like, well, why aren't you sharing?
- [66:30]
A
Why don't we get rid of him.
- [66:31]
B
In a white House? But we got so, you know, like he in business. It's like somebody saying, why are you keeping 100% equity, the company, and why are you not sharing the equity? Why are we not able to have a piece of this, right? So to me, was he at least a guy that took care of people financially? Was he a guy that think so, really?
- [66:51]
A
I don't believe so. But look, you know, what you're saying is. Is very valid, but why did Paul Castellano wind up dead in front of Spark Steakhouse? There's one reason why, and only one reason. John Gotti. Because John Gotti had the balls to do it. And imagine failing at killing John. Excuse me, Paul Castellano. Same thing with Sonny. Somebody goes to Arizona to Sonny's house, and they Fail. Killing him. I mean, you know, that's. That's a pretty heavy.
- [67:28]
B
If you fail.
- [67:28]
A
If you fail.
- [67:29]
B
But, I mean, if you're a professional, you're not going to fail. You know, if you're in that space, you're not going to feel. Because you guys were good at explosives. You guys were. Your. The. The. It was a very different method. So you guys. By the way, how did you guys make money? What was the business model of making money in Hell's Angels?
- [67:48]
A
Well, look, my position has always been. Let me back up. The government's position has always been the Hells Angels are a criminal organization. My position has always been the Hells Angels are not a criminal organization. But I will concede it's an organization with criminals in it. Now, some of the guys are so greedy that they've got these little side things going. They don't share them with the general membership. They want the money for themselves. Kenny Owens and I were friends. Kenny Owens went to prison for 41 years. He was a crank cooker. In 1986, I was indicted by the FBI. They said I ordered somebody's murder, and it was a government sting. Ultimately, I spent a year in federal prison. Ultimately, Barry Tarlow, you know, got me not. Not guilty. And I beat. I beat the government, which is very difficult to do. They got, what, a 98% conviction rate? And I. I think that I lost my train of thought.
- [69:00]
B
Ask you a question. How'd you guys make money?
- [69:02]
A
Yeah. Okay, so. So what happens is people doing their little things. Don't share it with people. So I go to Kenny Owens and I say, kenny, I got a big bill coming up. This is an emissary. Goes to him because I'm in jail. And I said, can you give me $10,000 to apply to my legal fees? And he goes, george, I'd love to help you out, but I'm broke. And this is the message that comes back to me. So, I don't know, six months later, three months later, it's not very long, the feds raid his house. He's got $3 million and 30 pounds of crank. So what's funny and ironic is he gets out of prison, he gets sentenced to 41 years. He does, like, 26 years, 27 years, and the end of 2008 or whatever, he gets out, he gets paroled out, and he's not allowed to be around the club. But if you bring your motorcycle to him, because he's got a motorcycle shop, you can take your motorcycle. The government can't deny him from making a living. So I write up there. I take my motorcycle letter and have him do some electrical work on it. And he looks at me and I look at him. I haven't seen him in years. And he goes about that $10,000 George. And it was, you know, that's the first thing he said to me. We laughed at about it and.
- [70:31]
B
But it was that the way it was or were there guys that would go out of their way to help you out?
- [70:35]
A
Well, a lot of guys did help me out.
- [70:36]
B
They did help, yeah.
- [70:37]
A
And I think what was a business.
- [70:39]
B
Model like, Like I read one of the stories, like this guy named Josh Adams, you know, the 23 year old, the airman who had the 700,000 volume and Vicodin pills. And I don't know what it was.
- [70:50]
A
I think it was closer to a million, million pills. Yeah.
- [70:53]
B
What is that story about?
- [70:54]
A
Well, my son and his friends. Had a friend that became an airman and his job was he worked in the pharmacy and he had complete control over the ordering, the distribution. And my son, little George, rest in peace. He's no longer with us.
- [71:22]
B
Sorry to hear.
- [71:22]
A
Yeah, a great kid.
- [71:24]
B
Long time ago.
- [71:25]
A
10 years ago. He was 39 at the time.
- [71:29]
B
Was he in the life or. No, he didn't go on.
- [71:31]
A
Oh, he was a Hell's Angel.
- [71:32]
B
He was a Hell's Angels angel.
- [71:34]
A
He, him and several of the. We called them the YGs, the young guys. They were part of the new crew that joined the club in the mid-90s. They started bringing in Vicodin into town and saturated the the market. And you figure, what do you sell a Vicodin pill for? You know, what did it cost? The government paid for it all. I mean, these guys were cutting the money up.
- [72:06]
B
This is 80s.
- [72:08]
A
No, this is in 2099-1999-1990-2000. Okay, so 57, 56 people, 36 people got indicted and including myself, they said we were controlling the Vicodin market in Ventura County. And of course it was a 59 count racketeering, state racketeering charge. And it collapsed under its own weight. I mean it was, it was a house of cards to begin with. But they, they being my son, Adams, Rujio, Battillo, these various people, they were bringing the Viking into town. You know how they got caught? They were looking for business records. They were doing a forensic analysis on me and they went to my ex wife's house to see if there were ledger books there of my business practices. And while they were there, they found 30,000 Vicodin in my son's wardrobe closet. I didn't have a key to the house. I had no dominion over the Vicodin. But they indicted my son, they indicted my wife, who was a ex wife who was a Canadian citizen, in an effort to get me. They were basically holding my family hostage at this point.
- [73:41]
B
Are you somebody the feds are targeting together? Are you a big target? Yes, 97.
- [73:45]
A
I'm the head of my. I'm top of my game. The rumor in law enforcement is Sonny's retired in Arizona, George Christie's now the.
- [73:55]
B
Why does everybody retire in Arizona?
- [73:57]
A
Florida. That's where Bonanno retired.
- [73:59]
B
Everybody about. What is it with Arizona?
- [74:00]
A
Is that where you're going?
- [74:01]
B
Is that where they give you annuities? Is like benefit plan.
- [74:04]
A
Well, special gangster retirement plan there.
- [74:07]
B
You know, special gangs of retirement fund.
- [74:10]
A
So you know where. Sammy the Bull.
- [74:13]
B
Arizona.
- [74:14]
A
Okay. Yeah, yeah. I'm being a smart ass. Yeah, I know you are.
- [74:18]
B
I know. So. So a million pills, let's say at the. I don't know.
- [74:21]
A
And you know how they got caught? They come into the house.
- [74:24]
B
The 30,000 pills.
- [74:26]
A
Yes. They come into the house, they find the 30,000. What they fail to realize, they get so excited, they stop the search for their ledger books and they focus on the pills. In the garage is another 60,000 pills that they never discover because these guys are so inexperienced and they just end the search. They go, we found it. You know, but you know how they got caught? They didn't take the pills out of the bottles. And the IBM codes were on the pills. And one of the detectives went to the company, ran the codes, and they go, oh, yeah, these are all going to Andrews Air Force Base out in the desert. And that's how they put it all.
- [75:13]
B
Together at the time. Pills are selling for what? Two to eight dollars.
- [75:18]
A
Black market, I think they were selling. I think they average. They told me they were paying 50 cents a pill.
- [75:27]
B
You guys were paying 50 cents?
- [75:28]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [75:29]
B
You got really good deal on it.
- [75:30]
A
Yeah. And they, and they were, they were selling them like you said, for five to ten dollars.
- [75:36]
B
Great margins. Ten times.
- [75:37]
A
Yeah.
- [75:38]
B
But then. So, so okay, so. By the way, it's. It's interesting because I'm.
- [75:43]
A
Are you thinking about going on the pharmacy business?
- [75:46]
B
No, I actually. I had my best friend, best friend in the world. There was a dentist that was illegally in Glendale selling Vicodin pills to my best friend's dealer. And I met with this dealer, told him he can never sell it to my friend again. And he did. And my friend died taking 50 pills from Vicodin.
- [76:04]
A
And why did he take 50?
- [76:06]
B
He didn't take 50. He started off with one, led to two, led to three.
- [76:09]
A
Okay, I got you.
- [76:10]
B
He gradually worked.
- [76:11]
A
The tolerance gets. Oh, yeah.
- [76:12]
B
Oh, it was. He. He was. He was a. He was a mess. No matter how many Bible studies and stuff we would take this guy to, he was not going to get off of it. But.
- [76:20]
A
But, you know, let me. Let me say something. I have two hip replacements. So I go to usc. They want to replace my hip. Okay. Replace my hip. So.
- [76:30]
B
Uscla.
- [76:31]
A
Uscla. So the. The procedure is a success. The doctor tells me it's the worst hip I ever saw. You know, I got in a bike wreck, and it was already hammered from running every day. I'm a jogger at that time. I don't do it anymore.
- [76:48]
B
Because you don't want to have a hip. That's a. It can be problematic.
- [76:51]
A
Yeah. So I get a hip replacement. What do they give me? They give me like 150 Vicodin in this big bottle. And I said, what do I do with these? He goes, yeah, anytime you feel any pain, these exact words. Pop a couple. And so I'm. You know, I didn't know they were going to string.
- [77:11]
B
You're right. That's where the addiction comes from.
- [77:13]
A
Yeah, yeah, I agree. And the. The doctors didn't realize that this guy is a professional doctor. I mean, he was paramount in discovering these hip replacements. He was on the cutting edge and. Of hip replacements. And I mean, here's a doctor, world renowned, winds up going to another country and becoming the head of the hip replacement stuff there. He doesn't know they're addicted. Nobody knew they were. They just. I. Did they not know or did they not care? I mean, you know, you watch at.
- [77:50]
B
The beginning, you don't know, but you've known for a while. Yeah, they figured out they don't know it's addicting.
- [77:55]
A
Yeah.
- [77:55]
B
You go to the dentist, they give it to you nowadays. So I'm like, you know, take a couple of these. Take a couple of these. No, but, my friend, it was. It was a nasty situation. What happened to. But going back to it, how different. How different was these biker gangs? Like Hell's Angels versus the Bonanno, the Gambino, the Colombo family, who was more ruthless? Was it more. You guys?
- [78:23]
A
I think that this is what I'll say. I have to define this. You know, in. In the mob, it's, you know, violence on violence. You know, the violence is on other members in the outlaw motorcycle club. It's other people in the culture. It's a little. It's a little bit. I think it's a little bit spread out more. But this is one of the things I tell people. You know, people will make comments to me, cavalier comments. Oh, the. You know, the guy wound up getting and killed. What did he do? Well, he informed on some people. Well, I mean, everybody knows what the culture is about. And I'm gonna. I'm gonna make a comment because you'll probably get some hate mail. The club, they hate it when you call it gangs. I mean, that's, you know, you describe it any way you want. It doesn't.
- [79:16]
B
Why. Why is that?
- [79:17]
A
They just don't want to be called a gang. They want to be called a club.
- [79:20]
B
They want to be called a club, A club. Is it because of a tax benefit? Is it because of the membership?
- [79:25]
A
It's because of a. In a courtroom, you get in a courtroom, and this gang this and this gang that. And, you know, one of the things in my LA 2011 trial, you know, my daughter's my attorney, and she was hammering the judge. I, you know, I don't want them calling the Hell's Angels a gang.
- [79:48]
B
She doesn't want.
- [79:49]
A
She doesn't want to because it makes me look bad as her client. You know, it paints a picture that I'm a bad guy. We hammered on that. That was one of the things we didn't want the jury exposed to. The other thing, which you might find really interesting. And I came up with this question, how many people on the jury watch Sons of Anarchy? And everybody's, you know, everybody, the whole room. There was like a panel of 76 jurors, and they're being drawn from. Everybody raised their hand. And as the jurors got interviewed, the next question was, do you believe that the leader knows what every individual is doing? And all the orders come from the top? And anybody that said yes, we disqualify him, you know, and what my daughter was trying to do was set up a mistrial. And the judges. Judge Wu was smart enough to see what was happening, and he insisted that we make a deal. You know, he goes, look, he told the u. S. Attorney, and I was pretty brave for the judge. He said, you know, you want this to be your career case? He goes, it's not. You don't have that kind of case. And I was sitting over there kind of thinking, oh, man, you know, I'm getting out of this one. And he looked at me and he said, and you, Mr. Christie. He goes, God only knows what you got away with the last 40 years. He goes, I want you guys to go down there, make an agreement in Judge Walters court, and come back with a deal. We went down there, we came back, we got an agreement. We came back and we both walked in the courtroom, the prosecutors and the feds and my daughter and investigators, myself and Judge Wu said, open, open court. He goes, well, he goes, obviously we've got an agreement, because both sides look pissed off. And that was his.
- [81:56]
B
That makes sense, though.
- [81:57]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That was his philosophy, that if both sides were mad, we probably got a decent agreement.
- [82:05]
B
What were you guys against? What was the Hells Angels against? Like, for example, you know how when I understand the enemy is Mongols or the enemy is this or the enemy is that, but what were some values? Like, were you pro America? Were you. Nobody messes with? Because I know now it's international, now it's all over the place. But was there anything. A lot of former vets. So what were you against? What were you for?
- [82:29]
A
Certainly patriotic Americans. I mean, Trump recently himself said the Hell's Angels were patriots. You know, I don't know if he.
- [82:42]
B
Believes the only president that would ever say that.
- [82:44]
A
Yeah, I mean, you know, and I. I just. I was amazing, you know, But I want to say something. You know, he went to that trial in New York. Do you know, one of the people that showed up several times was Chuck Zito, former New York Hells Angel. Wow. Him and Trump apparently know each other and they showed up. But. But getting back on the subject, we're patriots. A lot of veterans. The club was established from veterans. I mean, I don't think at one time there were any non veterans in the club. I tried to create a rule that never really got off the ground. I wanted to make it a automatic kickout if anybody was caught dealing with any terrorist organizations, like selling, buying weapons, narcotics, information, whatever it would be. And I don't know if it went over everybody's head or if people weren't worried about. Just kind of stagnated and, you know, never got officially presented for a vote. But I think, you know, all outlaw bike clubs are patriotic, based in veterans, ex military.
- [84:10]
B
So question for you. Sometimes I want. I watch how these people come from other countries here illegally.
- [84:18]
A
Okay?
- [84:18]
B
And you saw, like, in Minnesota, you know, the. The Somalis, they're taking billions of dollars on top of billions of dollars, and they're going in the streets and punking Americans, okay. And bullying Americans. They try to do the George Floyd Protest in Huntington Beach. And I think you guys showed up. I don't know if you saw that or not. The biker kids showed up. Yeah, showed up.
- [84:39]
A
This was recent.
- [84:40]
B
Recent. This is three years ago, four years ago. Whatever the timeline was, Rob, we can get the time to be faction.
- [84:45]
A
I was in Spain when all that took place.
- [84:46]
B
You were in Spain when that happened? Yeah. Where I'm going with this is what. What would you know? The mob is no longer here. It's here, but it's not the way it was here in 56. Yeah, it's not. They can't, because the business. You can't. How do you make money today? It's easy to catch you today. But there were families in New York that would say, with what's happened in New York today, if the mob was still around, it wouldn't be happening today. Because there was a code. They kept the streets clean. And like you say, they killed each other. Right. You said violence on violence. Different than Mongols and Hell's Angels and different bike clubs. But how do you think if today you were still in there and you're seeing America publicly going through what it's going through in Minnesota, how do you think you guys would have handled it? Do you guys just stay out of it? Were there moments where you guys got involved and say, hey, listen, we may be who we are, but you don't cross the line and mess with America. This is the greatest country. Was there pride like that, or did you guys stay out of it?
- [85:45]
A
Well, I think there was pride like that. But, you know, when you start taking a political stance, it becomes very cloudy. Where do you draw the line? What do you do? You know, I mean, there are particular individuals that would kill for this country because they did before. Do I promote it? I don't think so. You know, I think that this is a court, a society of checks and balances through courtrooms, and you have to let the courts work their way, you know, wind their way. I mean, otherwise you can, you know, it's like when I heard they were going to disband the police when I was in Spain, I, you know, I just kind of chuckled. I go, oh, that's great. Yeah, disband the police and see who wants to run in the country. But, you know, these are hypothetical situations, hypothetical answers, ideal in facts and reality of what I can do and what I can't do.
- [86:58]
B
And maybe history. Maybe history to see, you know, what things, you know, what things you guys played a positive role in. Look, were there things that Hells Angels and Mongols played a positive role in.
- [87:12]
A
Absolutely. I think if you were to really research the history of the Ventura area and the Ventura Hells Angels. I saw the Ventura Hells Angels as a benefit to the community. We rule that town with an iron hand. We stopped drive by shootings in that town. You weren't allowed to steal motorcycles in that town. We had rules. You know, you weren't allowed to cook drugs in that town. If you got caught cooking drugs, you know, it was a problem.
- [87:46]
B
Anybody.
- [87:47]
A
Anybody including Hell's Angels. We had a Hell's Angels that became an informant and actually wound up here in Florida, in the state of Florida. He was cooking drugs with the guy. And we found out. And I went to the guy, and the guy was so scared, he told me because so and so gave me permission. And I said, what are you talking about? He would not do that. And he goes, no, he gave me permission, but I'm not allowed to talk about this.
- [88:19]
B
So he threw another guy under the bus?
- [88:21]
A
Yeah, he threw a Hell's angel under the bus.
- [88:23]
B
Was he telling the truth or was it.
- [88:24]
A
Yes, he was. The guy left. He got out of state.
- [88:26]
B
He thought, that's the guy that came here.
- [88:27]
A
Yes. Yeah.
- [88:29]
B
So those are things. Those are things. Okay. Interesting that you play some kind of a positive role on.
- [88:36]
A
I mean, look, I'm going to say something else. This is so funny. We didn't even allow bicycles to be stolen in the town. We have people coming to us. And the clubhouse was like a public courthouse, if you will. People would come there and they would decide in that room. We would decide in that room who was right, who was wrong. And we would say, okay, this is how. This.
- [89:03]
B
How was your relationship with cops? Did they like you guys?
- [89:05]
A
The old cops liked us. The new cops said, these guys need to butt out of our business. This is our job.
- [89:13]
B
Did you guys. Did you guys buy the old cops or. They just were.
- [89:16]
A
Some of them military cops were solid as they come. You know, I was very good friends with some of the cops. And I'll tell you how we maintain my friendship with them is I never asked them to cross their line, and they never asked me to cross my line. And we had a great understanding, a great relationship. There's a couple of cops and, you know, I don't care what people say. You know, I got accused of being too friendly to the cops when I was leader of the club, you know. You know, probably for two or three decades, I still. They text me, you know, hey, George, how you doing? Yeah, I'm okay. I Mean, these are guys that were. The chief, the assistant chief, the. The cop, Brad. The District Attorney, Michael Bradbury, that came after me. I had coffee with him in OJ Once. I tried to get him on the History Channel with me. I said, let's go on the History Channel and debate, you know. And he declined at the last minute. But he was entertaining the thought for a while.
- [90:14]
B
Were you guys buying politicians or. No? That was not your game. Your game's not politicians, not buying cops, not buying judges.
- [90:20]
A
No, you know, we. And this sounds very cavalier and egotistical. I mean, we didn't have to do anything. Nobody messed with us in Ventura. Ventura was our town. And, you know, lock, stock and barrel, you know, it's. We came to town in 1978. And if you come to town and you look around, I could take you on a tour of the town. I could take you to the Ventura clubhouse. I could take you to the Cross up on the Hill where the police looked at us constantly and surveilled us and gathered information. I can take you to the. I think it's the Star Lounge on Main street where the other prominent based motorcycle club called the Orphans were in town. They were in town several years before us, probably 10 years before us. We fought it out with them on Main street in front of the bar. The police rode up in their cars. This will give you an idea of the time frame. They had to roll their windows down by hand. You can see them, and they're rolling the windows down. And the message to me from the Ventura police, these are the old timers, don't leave anybody in the street. And rolled the windows up and they drove off. And we continued fighting these guys. We fought it out with the Orphans on Main street in Ventura.
- [91:53]
B
How nasty was it?
- [91:54]
A
It was nasty. And two weeks later, mysteriously, their clubhouse burned down.
- [92:00]
B
Mysteriously?
- [92:01]
A
Yes.
- [92:01]
B
Wow.
- [92:02]
A
Stuff like that happens. Yeah, it does happen. Yeah. You know, and spontaneous combustion of some sort. So they come back, the police come to the fire.
- [92:12]
B
Yeah.
- [92:13]
A
And the fire department comes. And what do they do? These guys do not like the Orphans. They sit in front of the Orphan's clubhouse and smoke cigarettes and drink coffee while it burns to the ground. And you can go there to this day and you can look on the walls, on the back wall, and you can still see the smoke and flame marks from the fire from. I don't know what year it was. 78, 77. 78.
- [92:42]
B
What's the nastiest war you were a part of?
- [92:47]
A
Well, I. You know, I. I think that the war with Outlaws, I mean, it was down and dirty. You know, Whiskey George and Riverboat, you know, they get tied up, chained up, get shot in the back of the head with shotguns and probably pistols. They get thrown in the rock quarry and, you know, were calling the outlaws just before the war were. What happened to Riverboat and Whiskey? You know, I don't know, man. They left to go home, you know, and then they float to the surface and it just from there it escalates and escalates and, you know, I lost count of how many people got killed over the years. It got so rough. A motorcycle tank was left on one of the outlaws front porches. It was his birthday. And this is, you know, getting into sophistication here was his birthday. He walked out, he saw it, he thought it was a gift. He picked it up and it blew both his arms off. You know, it was. It was a bomb. I mean, this stuff's all documented. I'm not just making it up. I say that was the dirtiest one. I. You know, I met with Taco Harry Bowman. He died in prison in 2019. He tried to get a compassionate leave. He was dying of cancer. They hated him so much, they would not. They wouldn't parole it.
- [94:20]
B
Harry Bowman.
- [94:20]
A
Taco Harry. Taco Bowman. Look up the United States of America versus Harry Bowman, and you'll see he put a murder contract on me. Harry Bowman. He came to Ventura twice to kill me, and he wound up going to jail for racketeering. And he got an additional 10 years for. There's Harry right there. And got an additional 10 years for ordering my murder.
- [94:53]
B
Did you guys ever meet? Like you. You guys.
- [94:55]
A
I met him in person. Couple. Is he.
- [94:57]
B
Is he ever a friend or. No.
- [94:59]
A
Well, We had a. Interesting relationship. We were at war. I went to him, petitioned him for peace. A very unpopular position with the Outlaws. A very unpopular position with Hell's Angels. But I continued. Harry Bowman went along with it, dug in, kind of. And ultimately Spike O' Neal in the mid 2, mid 19 1995, 96, I don't know what year it was, talked Bowman into backing out of the peace talks and putting a murder contract on me. They were either going to kill Sonny or me. They decided ultimately to kill me. In 2002, I received a phone call from a federal prison, and it's Harry Bowman and Taco Taco. He calls me on the phone and he wants to ask me a favor. And he said, you know, George, he goes, this is basically your second case. You beat. You beat that.59 count racket. State racketeering case. You beat that case in 86. He goes, I don't know what your secret is, but he goes, my lawyer is interested in talking to your daughter and find out how you're fighting these cases. And he said, would you be interested in helping me out? And I thought about it. I was thinking, the ball's on. This guy called you? Yeah, he called me. Had put a murder contract on me. Convicted of it.
- [96:44]
B
He knows it. You know it?
- [96:45]
A
Yeah, he knows. And he, you know, he said, you know, about that murder thing, man, it was, you know, it wasn't personal, you know, I said, well, I know that, you know, I mean, what else are you going to say? I mean, we're supposed to be tough guys, you know, but he says, will you. Will your daughter help me? And her. She called Henry Gonzalez, a very prominent attorney in Florida that was working on Taco's appeal, and they worked together on it a little bit, unsuccessfully, I might add. But as Harry and I were talking on the phone, I said, hey, before you get out the phone, Taco, I need to ask you something. He goes, oh, yeah? What's that? And he said, what do you want? You know, he. I could tell by his voice, he knew I was going to say something to him. And I said, look, I know you got racketeering and you got a life sentence on that. And I said, I know you got an additional 10 years for ordering my murder. I said, what are you going to do first? And he told me to go to hell.
- [97:50]
B
He did.
- [97:50]
A
Yeah, he was joking, but. Harry Bowman, interesting guy who's on the FBI's.
- [97:59]
B
Is he dead? Is he alive?
- [98:00]
A
He's dead.
- [98:01]
B
2019.
- [98:02]
A
Yeah, he. He ruled that club with an iron hand. He was the ultimate leader, international leader, had the. The final say, and that's what got him on the racketeering. Their club is structured somewhat like the Mafia. Our Hell's Angels charters are autonomous to each other, and that's how we. That's how we beat that 1979, 1980 RICO case. Are you familiar with that? You know who was a prosecutor? Robert Mueller.
- [98:30]
B
Stop it.
- [98:30]
A
Robert Mueller. Robert Mueller tried us twice and failed. And Judge Conti and him decided. Robert Mueller. There you go right there.
- [98:45]
B
Robert Mueller was prosecuted in 1980, major RICO case last against the Hells Angels motorcycle, leading to two lengthy trials that ended mistrial due to problematic government witness and defense argument.
- [98:57]
A
Wow.
- [98:58]
B
Wow. Yeah.
- [98:59]
A
This is.
- [99:00]
B
This is where you were arguing against Sonny to say, let's do less Empire, let's do more decentralized independent.
- [99:07]
A
Yes.
- [99:08]
B
So we won't be held towards RICO law.
- [99:13]
A
And you know, Sonny, Sonny liked. Look, I'm going to be candid with you. You know, somebody says, hey, yeah, there's Sonny Barger, or hey, there's George Christie. You know, this guy's really powerful in Hell's Angels. It's, it's really an ego blast, you know.
- [99:33]
B
And what kind of money are you guys making? Like, are you guys making money?
- [99:37]
A
Well, I, I, there were times I was making money, but I got to tell you something. By the early 90s, I had a bail bonds company, I had a T shirt company, I had a tattoo shop, I had a concert promotion business. And I was administrator for my daughter's law office. I mean, I was a real entrepreneur, you know, as you are yourself. And so I found that I could make a lot more money legally without the scrutiny. But the interesting thing is the scrutiny never stopped. You know, they're always looking at an angle. You know, there was rumors floating around the Internet for a while. I had 35 million doll dollars hidden in an offshore account in.
- [100:25]
B
Would you mind sharing the address with the audience?
- [100:27]
A
My ex wife would like to know that as well. She actually called me and she said, what about this?
- [100:38]
B
Wow. Bold like taco.
- [100:41]
A
Maybe worse.
- [100:42]
B
Really?
- [100:43]
A
But anyways, it was.
- [100:44]
B
Is Noel still alive?
- [100:46]
A
Noel? Yeah, Noel's alive. I think Zoran is alive. Z, Sunny's. You know, those are Sonny's women. I have nothing to do with.
- [100:56]
B
No, what I'm asking is, does your ex wife, Noel and Z, do they talk?
- [101:00]
A
No.
- [101:01]
B
They friends?
- [101:01]
A
They were not friends.
- [101:02]
B
They were not friends?
- [101:03]
A
No. Isolated. My, My ex wife knew Z. They. It was interesting. It was like the kettle calling the pot black. That's how they perceived each other, if you will.
- [101:19]
B
Wow.
- [101:19]
A
And that's what I'll say.
- [101:20]
B
Who was. Did you say it once or. I don't know who said it. That Sonny one time hit his wife and his daughter or something like that?
- [101:28]
A
Yeah, he did.
- [101:29]
B
Yeah.
- [101:29]
A
He has a. If you look it up, he's got a salt beef against Noel. And I believe the daughter's name was Sarah. His 4.
- [101:39]
B
Noah's daughter or his daughter.
- [101:40]
A
Noel's daughter. So he doesn't have any children? He has one sibling, a sister, but.
- [101:49]
B
He didn't want to have kids.
- [101:51]
A
I don't know. I think he was pretty selfish guy. I think he was interested in himself.
- [101:57]
B
Was he straight? Is he, Was he, was he only into women?
- [102:01]
A
I think so.
- [102:01]
B
Okay. You think so. Well, that's good. At least you think so.
- [102:04]
A
That's. I. I saw. No, no.
- [102:07]
B
I'm just wondering because, you know, if you. You don't want kids, you know, it's a. Could be different for everybody.
- [102:15]
A
Yeah. You know, look, when.
- [102:17]
B
When guys.
- [102:17]
A
And let me tell. Let me say something, because I'm the. The Sonny supporters are going to go. You know, he would never be saying, you know, everything I said today, I said to Sonny's face. At one time or another, you know, we had an ultimate showdown in the Oakland clubhouse. He was a. A Cave Creek member. I was a Ventura member. We were resolving an issue. You know, he called 91 1, which is against the club rules. You can certainly call 911 for an ambulance. But he called 911 and then the police took the call over, and he made a bunch of provocative, cavalier statements about Noel. I took exception to that because the club took exception to that. They wanted him corralled in, if you will. And Papa was a very powerful Frisco San Francisco member. When I say Frisco, I'm talking about San Francisco Frisco member who ultimately would get murdered by the Mongols. But he hosted a meeting between me and Sonny. And Sonny. And I went in the back room.
- [103:32]
B
What year?
- [103:34]
A
I'm gonna say 2006.
- [103:36]
B
Maybe at this point, there is major.
- [103:38]
A
Issues between the two of you. Yeah, this is the final straw. We're reaching the end. And I said, you're wrong. I go, members have been kicked out for that. I go, you need to admit it to the club. And he basically. I said, look, we've been arguing two hours. I said, we're not getting anywhere. I said, how about this? I go, how about we agree that you're going to think I'm wrong? I'm going to think you're wrong. And I said, but let's do this. Let's go out to the. There was, like, probably 20 presidents sitting in the other room. I said, let's go out to the meeting and let's tell them the issues resolved and it's put behind us so there's no more questions about it. And he said, me go out in the meeting. He goes, I'm Sonny Barger. I don't answer to anybody. And that's what he told me. And I said, look, Sonny, I said, you got me all wrong, man. You think I'm after you? I said, I'm not after you. I said, my vision of Sonny Barger is Sonny Barger standing in the front, George Christie on your right shoulder, and Irish o' Farrell on your left shoulder. And I said, do you remember up in Sh Shasta when the cops were threatened to rush the camp because somebody had ditched him on their bike and rode into camp? And you told them that if they came in, it was going to be a goddamn riot? And I said, that's a Sonny Barger. I remember. And that's a Sonny Barger. I always want to remember. Now, I may have my timeline wrong. You know, shortly after that, that book Angels of death came out.07. Yeah, he told me. He said, yeah, so Angels of Death, argument. So he calls me up on the phone, and he said, you know what, George? I read that book. And he goes, you look really bad at it. And I go, I look really bad. And I said, like I'm trying to impress somebody. And I said, well, you know what? I go, you don't look so good yourself, because I'd read the book and whatnot. And he goes. And I'm going to tell you something else. He goes, I think you've been president too long in Ventura. And he goes, you need to step down. And he goes, nobody likes you. And I said, well, you know what, man? I don't know how this sounds to you, but I said, I don't really care what you think anymore. And he hung up on me. And like a couple of kids, this is the last time I talked to him. I called him back and I said, hey, Ralph, I said, we got cut off. And he hadn't cut me off. He had hung up on me. And he said, no, George, I. Huh? And I slammed the phone down on him just to make sure.
- [106:23]
B
You're the last one.
- [106:23]
A
Yeah, I had to get the last word. And that's the last time we talked.
- [106:27]
B
When I talk to guys from the world, they'll say, there's a group that'll say you got kicked out. There's a group that says, you quit. Me?
- [106:37]
A
Yeah, I quit.
- [106:38]
B
You quit?
- [106:39]
A
I absolutely quit.
- [106:40]
B
How did it happen?
- [106:41]
A
I went to the meeting. We were fighting the Outlaws, the Mongols, the Bandidos, and the Pagans. And I said, look, we got wars, I think five fronts, not to mention law enforcement. I go, now you guys want to fight the Vagos? I go, why? Why do you want to do that? I go, the Vagos are calling me, and they're telling me, hey, George, we don't want to fight you guys. What's the problem, man? We've gotten along since 1966. Why now? What's the. What's the issue? And I told the guys in the club, I go, you know, when somebody doesn't want to fight you and you continue to push on them. That makes you a bully. And I go, I'm not a bully. I've never been a bully. I never will be a bully. And I said, we have become the people we rebelled against. And I said, I'm done, man. And I said, what's going to happen next? I said, read your history. What happens is when empires or cultures or whatever, you, however you want to describe it, run out of people to fight, they turn inward. And I go, that's what's going to happen to us. And I said, I don't want to be here when that happens. Took my patch off, I folded it up, I put it on the table. I said, anybody got anything to say? Nobody said anything. I said, what's my status going to be? And they said, good standing. Well, you know, Sunny changed all that. They put me out to bad state.
- [108:09]
B
Who's in that room? Who's in that room when you're saying this?
- [108:10]
A
Ventura Hell's Angel. Sonny's not there. Ventura Hell's Angels. Got it. Okay, so now what happens is, says 2011. Or this is 2011.
- [108:22]
B
2011.
- [108:22]
A
So what happens is I make this prediction and I'm going to jump ahead and then I'm going to swing back. I make this prediction. Several months later, Jethro Pettigrew, the president of San Jose, gets murdered by a Vago in a Reno. It's a Reno casino. So there's a big funeral. There's five to seven thousand guests there. Two Hells Angels. Start. Start arguing at the funeral. They're holding each other responsible. It was your fault Jethro got killed. No, it was your fault. Steve Tossen has a. Just a amazing reputation as probably one of the toughest guys in the Hell's Angels. He's actually killed somebody by hitting them with one punch. And tough guy. Yeah, very tough guy. He hit a guy. He was a bouncer at a bar called the Pink Poodle, and he hit a guy and one punch killed him. So Steve Ruiz and Steve Tossen are now arguing. They're both San Jose Hells Angels or Santa Cruz Hells Angels. They might have broke off, I can't remember. Steve says, it's your fault Jethro's dead. Steve Taussin hits Ruiz. Ruiz falls to the ground, pulls his gun out and shoots Steve Tossen three times, murders him in front of all those witnesses. It's complete chaos going on. Tassum lays their dead. The police come. Steve Ruis gets away. They continue with the burial. And the day or two later, they exhume Jethro's body because they think Steve Ruis was also killed and he's in the ground. That never happened. Ultimately, three or four months later, Steve Ruis turned himself in and wound up. I think he got three years for shooting Jethro. But what happened was everything I predicted happened, and I'm not happy it happened, but it's a fact. It happened. And, you know, history's history. You can't rewrite it. And that's the problem. I had Sonny and the small crew of Ventura guys that didn't like me wanted to rewrite history. They wanted to say they kicked me out of the club. Well, you know what? They didn't kick me out of the club. I was told I can't write a book. I was told I couldn't do the Outlaw Chronicles. I was told I can't go on A E and do shows. I've written four books, I've done. I lost count of all the shows I've done. And you know what? I'm still doing what I want.
- [111:14]
B
Has anybody tried to take you out or. No?
- [111:17]
A
I don't know.
- [111:18]
B
But you haven't gotten any threats?
- [111:20]
A
Sure, there were some threats. People write me. And, you know, I mean, I had one guy stoop so low when my boy died, he wrote me and said, you know, he killed your son, which is complete. You know, he died from complications from undiagnosed diabetes. He died in his sleep. But I said to him, I said, you know, I said, you only with your remarks, I go, you only reinforce the fact that my position was correct in leaving an organization. You got a problem, man, Come and. Come and see me. You know where I live. I live in Ventura.
- [111:57]
B
You're still in.
- [111:58]
A
I'm still in Ventura, and I go out every day, and I'm not challenging anybody.
- [112:02]
B
And Hell's angel is still in Ventura.
- [112:05]
A
They're not as active as they were. And I don't think. And they're not going to like this, but I'm going to say it public. I don't think they're as powerful as they were. And they become my footnote, perhaps. And you know what? I got no problems with you guys, but don't make one, okay? I'm just trying to live my life, and I'm happily married. Married to a woman I've known since I was 12. She was married to a friend of mine for 57 years, and he passed away, and I figured I better step in and.
- [112:40]
B
What a crazy story.
- [112:44]
A
Yeah. And she was a witness in my 1986 trial. Child. She was a character witness in my 1986 murder for hire trial. Wow. And she wreaked nothing but havoc from the feds. They froze her bank account, they put her store under surveillance, and they were investigating her clients.
- [113:02]
B
Well, at least she got the 35 million bucks, which is.
- [113:04]
A
She did. She's getting.
- [113:05]
B
She's getting.
- [113:06]
A
She's getting the benefit of the 35 million. And we're living it up, whether real or imagined. Should we close with that?
- [113:16]
B
Yeah, I like that right there. By the way, a final thing before we wrap up.
- [113:21]
A
Okay.
- [113:21]
B
How long were you in with Michael Francis?
- [113:23]
A
We were. I was there almost a year with him. He had done that gas scam and the Russian thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he. How much did. 10 billion.
- [113:33]
B
He was saying he was making 4 to 10 million a week.
- [113:35]
A
Yeah, yeah. And. And he. They wanted the money back. Weld it back. They wanted the money. And I think he took them on a little bit while. The goose chase. I don't know if he admitted that to you when he talked about it. He took him on a wild goose chase. And after about eight months, they figured out, you know, I think he was getting taken here in the limousine and he was staying at this motel and the money was coming, and he kept telling him, it's kind of like the checks in the mail.
- [114:03]
B
Michael is brilliant.
- [114:04]
A
Yeah, he's absolutely brilliant.
- [114:06]
B
Brilliant. When you. Who else was in with you guys?
- [114:08]
A
Rosario Gambino. He was the pizza connection guy.
- [114:11]
B
Rosario Gambino?
- [114:12]
A
Yeah, he was the pizza connection. I was in there with some. I don't remember their names of some other guys. I was in there with the guy that was the first name in the. The infamous Black Book out of Vegas. He had thrown acid in somebody's face. Somebody owed a debt to the casino, and he went to collect it.
- [114:36]
B
And is it Frank Colada?
- [114:38]
A
I don't. I don't know.
- [114:39]
B
But he was a part of the mob.
- [114:41]
A
Yeah, well, he was part of Chicago. Frank Spilatra. No, but I met Tony Spilotro, But I didn't. He wasn't in jail with me. Sam Sorrentino was in jail.
- [114:52]
B
Frank Colada, you would have remembered. He was an ice cold.
- [114:54]
A
Ice cold guy.
- [114:55]
B
He was in the movie Casino. He's the guy in the Vice.
- [114:58]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know who he is. So I go to Vegas, 1976, 77. Make reservations at the Riviera Hotel. Old man John tells me, don't stop in Vegas, man. He goes, keep going. We're going to Cody, Wyoming. I go, the guys want to stop, man. They've never been there before. So we stop in Vegas, we go to the Riviera, and they start hassling me about the reservations. So I demand. I said, I'm paid for these. You've taken it off my credit card. I go, we're going to stay here one way or another. And some guy shows up there. Little guy, didn't know who it was, didn't remember his name. And then when I saw the movie Casino, I realized it was. It was Tony Spilotro that they had sent down there to tell us to get out of town. He was really rude, really aggressive. He goes, you know, these guys need to go on those bikes and get out of town. And I said, look, man, no disrespect, I don't know who you are. You don't know who I am. I said, we're going to spend the night here, and then in the morning, we'll get on our bikes and we'll get out of town. I go, we're going to Cody, Wyoming, man. I have no interest in Las Vegas. I go, you say, it's your town, it's your town. And him and I wound up spending the evening together. Seriously, I'm totally serious. Him and I. Very serious.
- [116:24]
B
By when did you know it's Tony.
- [116:25]
A
Spilotro, and when the movie Casino came out.
- [116:27]
B
Oh, so while you're. You're calling him Tony, but you don't know which Tony?
- [116:30]
A
No, I don't know who he is. You know, Tony Spilotro. Nobody knew who he was back then. I mean, these are mob guys that, you know.
- [116:35]
B
What year is this?
- [116:36]
A
1977.
- [116:37]
B
That makes sense.
- [116:38]
A
Yeah. So I. This is a story I told at the Mom Museum. I gave a lecture at the Mom Museum Museum once.
- [116:44]
B
Beautiful place, by the way. The way they've done it is incredible.
- [116:46]
A
Yeah, yeah, it's brilliant.
- [116:47]
B
It's an old Vegas, which is like.
- [116:49]
A
And that's the courthouse.
- [116:50]
B
Yes, the courthouse. Yeah.
- [116:53]
A
David chesnov handled our 2002 casino, the Fight with the Mongols. Who was partners with. His name escapes me. The ex mayor.
- [117:06]
B
Yeah. Oscar Goodman.
- [117:07]
A
Oscar Goodman. He's partner. Good guy.
- [117:09]
B
Have you spent time.
- [117:10]
A
I've talked to. Talked.
- [117:11]
B
You know, his wife's the mayor now.
- [117:12]
A
I know she is.
- [117:13]
B
He was in for 8 or 12. And she was in for 8 or 12.
- [117:16]
A
Yeah. Is she still a mayor?
- [117:18]
B
Can you check to see if Oscar Goodman's wife's still the mayor? Maybe she's not.
- [117:22]
A
Yeah. David Chesnov Was his understudy, Goodman's understudy.
- [117:26]
B
And he was in the movie Casino.
- [117:28]
A
Yeah, Goodman was in there. He was with SP. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that was exactly. Joe Pesci nailed it. That's exactly how he was. You can see from the. He taught me how to play craps.
- [117:42]
B
Tony.
- [117:42]
A
Tony. He says, let's play some craps. I don't know how to play craps. And he goes, come here, I'll show you. And he was doing all these sophisticated betting. I think they were letting me win. You know, I had a bunch of dough, and. And he had his eye on one of the girls that was with us, and. But she was with a member, and. But he was. He was a character, man.
- [118:06]
B
Tony Spilotro was a character. I. I did an interview with Tony Spilotra's hitman, Frank Collada. If you type in Frank Collada, yeah, that's Tony. But if you go to Frank Collada, Colada passed away three years ago. He texted me. And then two months later, he passed away when Frank Klada came to do an interview with him.
- [118:25]
A
They killed him in the house, though, and then took him to the cornfield. Did he say.
- [118:29]
B
Yeah, that's. Well, he told a lot of stories. We were together for a couple hours, but this guy, when he came in, George, he comes in, and Mario, my guy Mario, says, hey, how are you? He says, why did you come in a white car? Maury's like, no, we didn't. He says, no, you did. You came in a white car with three people. Where are the other three guys? What's this guy talking? And he realizes they did come earlier in a while. Frank was sitting outside the entire town watching every single move to see if he was safe or not.
- [118:59]
A
Well, yeah, I mean, these guys were serious about him. I mean, you know, you don't. And he didn't like the term rat. You know, Colada he got in an argument with.
- [119:08]
B
Oh, so you know Colada.
- [119:09]
A
I didn't really know him, but I know. I know on the set of Casino, somebody called him a rat.
- [119:15]
B
Yeah.
- [119:15]
A
And he took him aside, apparently. Took him aside, put him in his place. Yeah. And said, don't ever call me a rat again.
- [119:23]
B
No, this was not a guy. You felt. You felt how cold he was.
- [119:28]
A
Well, he plays one of the hitmen. They kill that guy when they're getting rid of all the. Let me. Let me go back now. My first lawyer for my 18, 1986 case was Norm Green and Alan Kaplan. They did the Stardust skimming case. And you're familiar with Vegas? Yeah. Yeah. That's the casino.
- [119:57]
B
That's your lawyers. They were your lawyers.
- [120:00]
A
Yeah. And. And they. We had given Alan Kaplan a motorcycle. The Cleveland guys gave him a motorcycle. He got in a wreck and they amputated his foot, and he couldn't. He was in no shape to defend me. And the case was turned over to Barry Tarlow. But initially it was Norm Green and Alan Kaplan. Alan did the Pizza Connection case with Rosario Gambino, who was there. So I get subpoenaed to a grand jury about Teamster money because we paid Allen $10,000 as a retainer, and they wanted to know if it had anything to do with Teamster money. I didn't go to the grand jury. My father died unexpectedly the day I was supposed to testify at the grand jury. And they excused me. The Ventura Police had to call the U.S. attorney that was asking the questions at the grand jury. Did his dad really die or is he just telling stories? And he said, no, his dad did die. And they told me, we'll catch you next time. I never heard back from him.
- [121:17]
B
Wow, George, who do people say you look like? I want you to look at this real quick when I say this. Who do people say you look like?
- [121:24]
A
I don't know.
- [121:25]
B
Did they say look like anybody? I don't know, Rob. Who's he look like? Does he not look like Jon Voight? John. Go up to John Voight. John Voight's a good looking man. Go to John Voight. Go to different pictures, like, straight looking at you. I don't know.
- [121:42]
A
I got a great. A great story.
- [121:44]
B
You look like John Voight.
- [121:45]
A
Okay, if she says that she's known.
- [121:48]
B
You since 12, you look like Jon Voight.
- [121:51]
A
Okay, well, you know, people don't tell.
- [121:54]
B
Me I look like John Boyd. That's a compliment. You know, John is a. You know. You know what movie I think about when I think about John Boyd?
- [122:01]
A
Heat. Champ. Champ. Champ. Old School.
- [122:04]
B
That's the movie my dad and I would watch the Horses and, you know, know.
- [122:07]
A
So we're having the 50th anniversary. You'll never guess who shows up in town.
- [122:13]
B
Who?
- [122:13]
A
John Voight's daughter.
- [122:15]
B
Which one?
- [122:18]
A
She's with Chuck Zito.
- [122:19]
B
Okay.
- [122:20]
A
So her and Chuck and I are walking up the street.
- [122:23]
B
This is what year?
- [122:25]
A
99 or 98. 50th anniversary.
- [122:27]
B
Peak. She looks gorgeous.
- [122:29]
A
Yeah, so she's very. There's Chuck and there's Chuck and Angela. So the cops are focusing on Chuck. You know, I mean, I'm they see me every day, but here's Chuck Zito, and they're like. I think they're sneaking pictures of him, and they're asking questions, and they're starstruck with Chuck. And in between Chuck and I is Angelina Jolie. And they were so excited about Chuck, they didn't even pick up on who she was. So the next after the party's over, I tell the cops they were the Gang Squad guys. And I go, and you guys are slipping. And they go, what do you mean? I go, didn't you recognize who was in between us? And I go, no, who wasn't? I said it was Angelina Jolie, man. And they were just like you said.
- [123:16]
B
You said Jon Voight's daughter, right? To the average person, it's Angelina Jolie's dad.
- [123:23]
A
Dad. Okay.
- [123:24]
B
But 40 years ago, it was John Boyd. 30 years ago, it's John.
- [123:28]
A
You remember him in Heat?
- [123:29]
B
Of course.
- [123:30]
A
That was just an incredible movie. And, you know, Michael Mann is an incredible filmmaker. And you want one more short story?
- [123:39]
B
Sure.
- [123:40]
A
In 1986, 87, I beat my case. Nobody beats the feds. You know, it was a big deal, man. Michael Mann calls me up and he wants to talk to me about doing a movie about carrying the torch and my trial and my first wife.
- [123:58]
B
The 1984 Olympics. The torch thing that you did. $3,000.
- [124:01]
A
Yeah.
- [124:02]
B
What a funny story.
- [124:04]
A
Pretty good. Pretty good move, huh? Let's talk about controlling.
- [124:08]
B
There's, like, charity, man.
- [124:10]
A
I was controlling the narrative, man. You know? And. And so I said, my first wife, Cheryl. Who? My present wife, Beverly. They were best friends. They were really good friends.
- [124:22]
B
How many wives have you had?
- [124:25]
A
Three.
- [124:26]
B
Okay.
- [124:26]
A
Yeah. I'm not. Sonny holds a record, man. Four.
- [124:31]
B
Son had four wives.
- [124:32]
A
Four wives. Yeah. And I'm being a smart ass now. I'm not talking about. There's a great picture of.
- [124:37]
B
This is you in the middle.
- [124:38]
A
That's me in the middle. That's Sunny after surgery. That's Irish o'. Farrell. A very imposing figure.
- [124:46]
B
Very. It looks like Kurt Russell.
- [124:48]
A
Yeah, he's one of the. Was one of the toughest. It greet fighters.
- [124:52]
B
He was really.
- [124:53]
A
Yeah, Just so.
- [124:55]
B
He was a tough guy.
- [124:56]
A
Now back out of the picture a little bit. You see the little eyeballs at the bottom?
- [125:01]
B
Yes.
- [125:02]
A
That's Little George.
- [125:03]
B
That's your son?
- [125:04]
A
That's my son, Little George, that later became controlling the Vicodin market. He was a hell of a pharmacist.
- [125:15]
B
And that's. That's Sunny to the right. To your left.
- [125:19]
A
Yes.
- [125:21]
B
Irish, you said Irish.
- [125:22]
A
Irish o'. Farrell. Michael Irish o'. Farrell.
- [125:25]
B
Michael Irish. Or was Irish tougher than Sonny?
- [125:28]
A
Yeah, yeah. Look, do you ever heard of the Beast from the East?
- [125:33]
B
No.
- [125:35]
A
Okay, now, Chuck Zito and I have a difference of opinion on this. But look up Big Vinnie the beast from the East.
- [125:43]
B
Big Vinnie? Yeah.
- [125:44]
A
Big Vinnie the beast from the East.
- [125:46]
B
You have a guy that would like that name?
- [125:50]
A
There's Big Vinnie. Okay, Big Vinnie and Irish got in a fight. And Chuck says that the Oakland charter jumped on Big Vinnie. I was told that Irish took down Big Vinnie when single handed. You know, they fought in the backyard of the Oakland clubhouse. That's where I was told they fought. Chuck Zito said, no, they fought at Irish's house. Vinnie died several weeks later. He had a ruptured spleen.
- [126:27]
B
Stop it. From the fight.
- [126:28]
A
Yeah, well, that's what they say.
- [126:29]
B
So Irish.
- [126:30]
A
Irish is a bad.
- [126:31]
B
Destroyed him.
- [126:32]
A
Yeah. And Irish was killed by the Aryan Brotherhood, which is very shady circumstances. But Irish and this Aryan Brotherhood guy got in an argument. They walked. The guy says, let's go outside and we'll snort some crank and, you know, we'll put this behind us. So Irish said, okay. So Irish walked out first. The guy stabbed him in the neck three or four times. And then Irish looked at him and said, what are you going to do now? And he shot him four times and killed Iris there on the spot. It's.
- [127:04]
B
You were close with Iris.
- [127:05]
A
Very close.
- [127:06]
B
So you and. Would you and Irish be against Sunny? Like, were you guys united?
- [127:09]
A
No, we were united with it. But, you know, we. I told Irish, I go, this guy's not turning over the club to us. I mean, see, what happens is somebody, you know, gives a power up. How do they get it back if the people they gave it to are still alive? They're never getting their power back. They got to get rid of you. And Sonny had a. A revelation. You know, I'm not going to die after all. What am I going to do now? I'm going to start a movement to get my power back.
- [127:45]
B
And that's when he went to Arizona. Seven years old. When did Irish die? What year?
- [127:51]
A
89 or. Okay, so earlier when they both went to prison. Irish is supposed to go to prison with him.
- [127:57]
B
And Aryan Brothers got him right before.
- [127:59]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [128:00]
B
Wow. Well, George, I can talk to you for hours. And every time I'm like, I'm getting. Text me, you got a meeting, you got to meet, I'm like, I'm just getting more and more interested here. But, George, appreciate you for coming out. This was.
- [128:09]
A
Maybe we'll talk again sometime.
- [128:10]
B
I definitely look forward to that. I definitely look forward to it. This was great. Is there anything you want the audience to go to? Is there a book? Is there anywhere you want them to go?
- [128:18]
A
Go to my website, George Christie dot com. I got a new book and a challenge called Coin. I created this challenge coin that the Roman soldiers use. Challenge coins. I trace this back. The Roman soldiers used to use challenge coins so they could identify themselves as being part of the Roman legions. And I've putting out a challenge coin with the book. I think it's going to be my last book. I shouldn't say that. It's going to be my last book on. As a memoir of the Hell's Angels. I think I said it all in this book. I worked on it three years. I got a phone call, said, hey, if you and Sonny are going to resolve your problems, you need to call him because he's not going to last much longer. I got up, I started drinking coffee. I told Beverly I can't sleep. I got up, I went out in the front room, and I started writing the book. And at the end of the book, I explain, it's really kind of a insight into the leadership of being a leader in the outlaw motorcycle world and, you know, make a lot of comparisons. And at the end, I reveal why I decided not to come back and why I wouldn't come back. But I'm not going to tell you.
- [129:34]
B
That I got to wait for it.
- [129:36]
A
Well, I'm gonna. Maybe I'll send you a book.
- [129:38]
B
I appreciate that. Okay, George, thank you so much.
- [129:42]
A
My pleasure. Pleasure.
- [129:43]
B
Great having you here, guys. Take care, everybody. You want to learn more, go visit his website, George Christie dot com. God bless. Bye.
- [129:51]
A
Bye.
- [129:52]
B
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