Mafia States of America | Episode 1 - "Made Men"

Summary

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Mafia States of America | Episode 1: "Made Men" — PBD Podcast

Date: November 7, 2025
Host: Patrick Bet-David (PBD)
Guests: Sammy "The Bull" Gravano (Gambino Family) and Michael Franzese (Colombo Family)

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Episode Overview

This landmark episode brings together, for the first time on record, two notorious "made men" of the American Mafia: Sammy "The Bull" Gravano and Michael Franzese. The conversation, moderated by Patrick Bet-David, dives deep into the realities of Cosa Nostra, challenging the myths portrayed in Hollywood and confronting the hard truths about loyalty, violence, family, money, and the moral dimensions of organized crime.

The goal: to reveal the real faces, motives, and legacies of life inside the American Mafia, offering unfiltered insights from two men who once lived by—and broke—the legendary code.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Cosa Nostra? Separating Myth from Reality

(02:45 – 08:59)

• Origins and Meaning:

  • Sammy: Emphasizes Sicilian heritage, describing how "clans" became "the Mafia," originally formed to protect the people (03:26).

    "When I was a kid, I was a fuck up in school... I was a thug. I was in a gang. And go to Nostra is what kept me alive."
    — Sammy (03:26)

  • Michael: Contrasts Sammy's view, saying his father discouraged mob life; aspired instead to be an athlete, not a mafioso (04:55).

• Entry into the Mob:

  • Debate erupts about whether Michael entered through merit or family favor. Sammy suggests it was a favor due to Michael’s father, Sonny Franzese (08:00).

    "He's in prison and he tells them, I want to propose my son. You don't want to call it a favor. You could call it whatever you want..."
    — Sammy (08:07)

  • Michael insists: "Everybody has to be proposed... if you're told to do something, you do it. Do you accept that? I said yes." (11:00)

2. The Oath, Loyalty, and Obedience

(10:26 – 15:47)

• The Oath's Meaning:

  • Explores the severity of swearing allegiance—placing the life above all, even family and God (12:02).

    "This life is above God, country, family... they're just expressing how strong Cosa Nostra is in your life. That's what it's going to mean."
    — Sammy (12:02)

• Would You Kill for the Family?

  • Host asks if they would truly kill friends or family if ordered.

    "At that point in time, I would have done whatever I was told to do."
    — Michael (14:22)

  • Sammy: There's no negotiation—if you try to appeal to a boss, you might get mercy, but ultimately "there's nothing when he gets that" (16:45).

    "This isn't a business meeting... your life is on the line. And your family's life."
    — Sammy (14:28)

• Personal Stories of Trying to Save Others:

  • Both recount efforts to save associates marked for death—both admit to failure (17:17).

3. Gangster vs. Racketeer: Two Paths in Cosa Nostra

(18:15 – 23:22)

• Self-Characterization:

  • Sammy asserts: "I'm a straight out gangster. Michael, I believe, is a straight out racketeer." (18:15)
  • Michael admits, "I was more of a racketeer than a gangster. I don't hide from that." (19:41)
  • Both agree on the duality in the Mafia: earners (racketeers) and enforcers (gangsters).

• Mutual Respect for Each Role:

  • Sammy: "I win unions all over the city... I ran five, six, seven construction businesses... so I'm as much of a racketeer as he is. I don't think he's as much of a gangster as I am." (21:04)

4. The Gasoline Scam: The Business of the Mafia

(22:20 – 31:50)

• Origins and Operations:

  • Michael explains massive money made on gasoline tax scams, involving Russians but under his purview, not theirs.

    "We were selling a half a billion gallons of gas a month... bringing in five, eight million dollars a week."
    — Michael (22:20)

  • Dispute arises on who started the scam—Sammy says Russians innovated it, Michael says they merely facilitated it.

• Historical Impact:

  • Michael claims even the FBI accused him of teaching Russians and Armenians new forms of organized crime (31:34).

5. Morality, Honor, and Regret

(32:26 – 38:50)

• Changing Views:

  • Michael: "It's not what it's cracked up to be... when money and power come into play, a lot of times the honor is not there anymore." (32:39)
  • Sammy agrees, noting every institution (cops, politicians, military) has its “ugly” side; Mafia is not unique in this (34:31).

• Family Consequences:

  • Michael shares the toll Mafia life took on his family—his father's loyalty to Cosa Nostra destroyed family bonds.

    "Any lifestyle that does that to a family is a bad life. It's an evil life. I was part of it, so I'm taking responsibility for being part of it."
    — Michael (37:57)

• Debate on Evil of Mafia Life:

  • Sammy: “Churches have got some evil in it... everybody's got some evil in.” (38:42)
  • Michael: “It's not the same... we're saying we put that life above God, above family.” (38:50)
  • Sammy retorts: “Cops take an oath. You said they want to lock up their mother and father if they're committing a crime...” (39:11)

6. Society, Police, and Normal Life

(39:44 – 40:45)

• Police and Law Enforcement:
  • Even as former criminals, both reject the idea of "defunding the police," recognizing society's need for law and order.

    "You and I agree, we're not defunding the police."
    — Michael (39:59)

  • Sammy, with humor: "Patrick gets a heart attack right now... I’m not giving him mouth to mouth." (39:52)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the real meaning of a Mafia sit down:

  "It's not a matter of who wins and who loses. It's a matter of the public understanding who we are and what Cosa Nostra is... If they get that out, I won, he won. But more important than me or him, Cosa Nostra wins."
  — Sammy (18:15)

• On family vs. Mafia loyalty:

  "That life became before my family and as a result, what every made guy does. I understand that, but that doesn't make it right, Sammy."
  — Michael (37:45) "You just took the same oath, your mother and everybody at that time."
  — Sammy (37:26)

• On betrayal and violence:

  "Betrayal happens all the time."
  — Michael (41:00)
  "Greed, envy, jealousy. That's a way of life."
  — Sammy (41:02)

• Sammy on Omertà (the code of silence):

  “It meant open your mouth when you were in a dentist's office... What am I gonna do? I'll break your fucking face. That's what the fuck I'll do.”
  — Sammy (41:27)

• Shared opinion on policing:

  "Here's the irony. You got two former criminals that have more sanity than half the people out there that want to defund them."
  — Michael (40:37)
  "No, absolutely not [defunding the police]."
  — Sammy (40:03)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 02:45: Introduction of Sammy the Bull and Michael Franzese; What is Cosa Nostra?
• 08:00: Heated debate over favors, sponsorship, and legitimacy of being “made.”
• 12:02: Description of the oath and its implications of loyalty over family and even faith.
• 14:22: Would you kill for the family? Moral conflict and personal conviction.
• 17:17: Both recount failed attempts to save peers from being killed.
• 18:15: Sammy and Michael define the gangster vs. racketeer distinction.
• 22:20: Michael details the gasoline tax scam and industry dominance.
• 32:39: Michael opens up about the disillusionment and costs of Mafia life.
• 37:45: Impact of Mafia loyalty on family—Michael’s personal pain.
• 39:59: Mutual agreement on supporting law enforcement despite criminal pasts.
• 41:00: Brief teaser for the next episode: Betrayal and Omertà.

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Final Thoughts & Tone

This episode was raw, bluntly honest, and at times combative, but always revealing. There was a persistent thread of mutual respect despite profound differences. Sammy's storytelling is gritty, direct, and unapologetic. Michael is introspective, regretful, and matter-of-fact about the personal cost. Both express the code of the Mafia as something absolute, powerful, and ultimately destructive—especially to family.

While movies glamorize, the real Mafia brings tragedy, moral compromise, and the inescapable weight of “the life.” Both men own their choices, but neither glamorizes a past steeped in violence or false honor.

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Coming Up Next

The next episode promises to tackle deeper betrayals, definitions of Omertà, and stories of survival and principle in a world built on secrecy, power, and deadly consequence.

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Transcript

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[Narrator]

The reasons for the mob's success are clear. Its tactics and techniques are organization and discipline, vows of secrecy and loyalty, insulation of its leaders from direct criminal involvement, bribery and corruption of law enforcement and public officials. The time has come to cripple the power of the mob in America.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

God change.

[Patriotic Singer/Chorus]

He cried that with brotherhood. From sea to sh.

[Narrator/Host]

What you're about to see is real. This is not the Godfather of Goodfellas. This is not a movie. There is no script. For the first time anywhere, you will see a sit down between two made men. Men who swore the sacred oath. Not just soldiers in the mob, but real bosses. Sammy the Beau Gravano from the Gambino family and Michael Francis from the Colombo.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Family.

[Narrator/Host]

Will have a sit down and hash out their differences right before your eyes. Valuetainment presents a once in a lifetime sit down.

[Michael Franzese]

Sammy.

[Interviewer/Host]

Michael, thank you for agreeing to do this. I didn't think this was gonna take place for a long time. You were upset the first time I even brought it up to you. It was the first time you saw my interview with Michael. We were on the phone for two and a half hours. I said, it's probably never going to be taking place. And then, Michael, I never thought you would agree to this interview, but finally we are making this happen. I know a lot of people have been looking forward to seeing this. The public sees Cosa Nostra. They think about Godfather. They think about maybe Soprano, maybe Goodfellas, maybe Bronx Tale, maybe, you know, Donnie Barrasco with Lefty. They see the movies. They don't, you know, the movie is what they know about it. What is Cosa Nostra to you and does it still have the same meaning today as it did back in the 80s?

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

First of all, it's part of my heritage as an Italian. This came from Sicily. It was created in sicily in the 12th century, maybe even a little bit before. It was called clans back then. And they protected the people. That's how Gosa Nostra started. It became the Mafia. Instead of clans, it evolved and came into this country and there's a long history. And there was hundreds of movies of Al Capone and Lucky Luciano and Vito Genovese and on and on and on. So this has meaning to me. When I was a kid, I was a fuck up in schools. I didn't get out of the Eighth grade. I didn't have the privilege of growing up and graduating high school like Michael did or going to college wanting to be a doctor. I was a thug. I was in a gang. And go to Nostra is what kept me alive.

[Interviewer/Host]

Kept you alive?

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Kept me alive. It meant something to me. And when I got into them guys, those bad guys, our guys, they were idols to me growing up. His stepdad, Sonny Frances, he went to prison. And I don't want to talk about your dad, but a little bit I do know he went to prison on some propped up charges and they gave him, I believe it was 50 years.

[Michael Franzese]

Let me straighten some out. I don't know any father, but Sonny Francis. It's the only father I know. Don't know anyone else, whether he's my real father or not. My mother made a revelation. It's in the back of the book. I don't have to go into it as far as she told the world that he's my father. And I don't want to get into my family issue at that point. But he's the only father I know and I love. He had tremendous influence on me. I don't have the same feeling goes on Ostro as you do. My father didn't want this life for me. Wanted me to go to school, wanted me to be a doctor. I always say this. If you would ask me at that point what I wanted to be in my life. I wanted to play center field for the New York Yankees. Mickey Mantle was also. I was an athlete. That's what I wanted to do.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

But at what age? You're talking about 60, 17?

[Michael Franzese]

Yeah, I'm talking about when my dad went away. I was. I was 18 years old.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Okay.

[Michael Franzese]

So at that point, 19 years old.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

But you came into the mafia in your 20s, so.

[Michael Franzese]

That's right.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

That lasted all that period of time that you didn't want. Have nothing to do with it. You have no allegiance, no nothing. You don't even like it.

[Michael Franzese]

I didn't say I didn't like it, Sammy. I didn't say. I said I had no aspirations to.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Be part of aspirations.

[Michael Franzese]

Yeah. This is not usual.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

You had no aspirations. But yet at 24, before you came in and you did a serious thing of burning the saint.

[Michael Franzese]

That's right.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

In a secret society. And you abided all you were told when you took the oath, from that.

[Michael Franzese]

Point on, it was very serious.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Yeah, well, okay.

[Michael Franzese]

Very serious.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

You were told, if you asked to kill for the family, would you kill? And you said yes? I said yes because you're alive. Because if you said no, while you're taking this oath, you know you're not walking in that room.

[Michael Franzese]

Absolutely.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

You can't tell the boss, no, I'm not going to do it. You're not getting out of that room. But it killed you. And they say, who's next? Bring in. Absolutely. Okay.

[Michael Franzese]

But at that point, when that saint was burned in my hand, I already proved myself. Otherwise. That wouldn't have happened, huh? I proved myself.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

How did you kill someone? You didn't live a rough life. Did you even have fights? Did you do anything? You were in the game. You were going to college.

[Michael Franzese]

When I was in school, and my father, every day was in a newspaper, and I go to school with 90 Irishmen and 5 Italians, and 90 of them are calling my dad a mafia guy and disparaging my family, you better damn believe I fought in school. I had no choice because my father.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

That doesn't give you qualifications. To be a Mafioso, you have to do certain things.

[Michael Franzese]

That's right, Sammy. We know that.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

But you didn't do those things because your father asked for a favor to make you a friend of ours.

[Michael Franzese]

That's not true.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

That's not true. No.

[Michael Franzese]

There was no favors involved.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

How did you.

[Michael Franzese]

No, no, no, no. You asked me a question. Let me tell you. Two weeks after I see my father, little Joey comes and picks me up, takes me to see Tom Dubell at the time, who was acting boss for Persico. And he told me straight out, he said, michael, your father's proposed you for this life. Is this what you want?

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

So he is for faith.

[Michael Franzese]

No, he proposed me, Sammy. That's.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

That's a favor. He's in prison and he tells them, I want to propose my son. You don't want to call it a favor. You could call it whatever you want.

[Michael Franzese]

Whatever you want. But everybody has to be proposed.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Of course, somebody has to sponsor when he turns around and says he calls somebody to prison. Now, I don't doubt you. I don't doubt that happened. Yeah, I don't doubt you. So. But he asks a guy, I want to propose, my son here's proposing that proposal. That guy goes to the administration and says, sonny would like to propose his son. So the administration says, why? Did he kill anybody? No, he's going to medical school. He's a nice kid, good kid. And why should we make him? Well, because he's in prison. And he probably wants Michael to take care of his affairs and give him a little strength and power. So they do a Favor. That's what it's called.

[Michael Franzese]

I don't see it that way.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

What other way to do it? It's not that. They went there and they said Michael killed four guys. Well, Samuel, this little. This motherfucker is killing people, shooting people, breaking people's faces for the Mafia. He earned his bones.

[Michael Franzese]

Okay, let me ask you that.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Or made his bones?

[Michael Franzese]

So when Persico, When Junior proposed his son, is that a favor? When Joe Colombo proposed his son Anthony, was that a favor?

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

No. They're the boss. They don't need no favor. He's the boss, but the boss is the top. He don't need no favors. He don't need nobody.

[Michael Franzese]

It's the same situation.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

No, it's not.

[Michael Franzese]

Yes, he is.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

He's a boss. He turns around. He makes anybody he wants to make.

[Michael Franzese]

But the point is, because they were his son, they proposed. Why else would he propose? I want to propose my son.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

You don't even know why John Gotti proposed his son, his kid don't belong in the fucking life. He admitted in any way, shape or form. For power. For power? The guy, John Gotti, we'll keep using his name. John Gotti wants power. He proposes his son to become a made member. He's the boss. He didn't propose him. Everybody would have said no.

[Michael Franzese]

You're getting a reason why that's immaterial. If Persico is proposing his son, he must.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

He's not proposing, he makes him. He don't need a proposal.

[Michael Franzese]

Okay, if he makes his son.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Yes.

[Michael Franzese]

Okay, he makes his son. Is it a favor to him and to the family, or is he. Nobody questions him.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

He's making his son.

[Interviewer/Host]

Sammy, the difference here, the fact that his father was an underboss, where an underboss cannot propose somebody.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

No, the thing is, he's in prison and he asks. He wants to propose his son, and he's asking for a favor. So the administration turns around and says, okay, Tell son. Are you okay? What did he do?

[Michael Franzese]

Well, let me finish.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

He's his son.

[Michael Franzese]

Let me.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Let me finish.

[Michael Franzese]

So now, my father didn't propose my brother John. He didn't propose my brother Carmine. He proposed me. He asked me a question. Can you handle this? I said yes. So now I sit with Tom DiBella, and Tom says, your father proposed you. Is this what you want? I said, this is what my father wants. He said, I didn't ask you that. I said, is this what you want? I said, yes. He says, okay, but wait a minute. He said, when and if we tell you he said, from this point on, I give you the exact words, Cousin ostrich comes before anything. If your mother is sick and dying and you're at her bedside and we call you to service, you, leave your mother and you come and serve us. This is your life from now on. Do you accept that I said yes? He said, if you're told to do something, you do it. Do you accept that I said yes? He says, when and if we feel you're worthy, doesn't matter about your father, we'll let you know. That was it. He assigned me to Andrew Russo, who was my captain at that point. And he said, andrew says to me, you'll be down here every day on Carroll street, and you do whatever you're told. And he said, where is suit? And that's how it started for me.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I. I understand that. I understand. And. But the thing came from your father to them.

[Michael Franzese]

Yes.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Now, of course, they. They have the proposal, and they're gonna deal with Sonny. They're gonna tell him yes, or they're gonna tell him no. So now that he's not in. So they're gonna bring you, whoever took care of you and talk to you whether you said, oh, I don't doubt none of that. And they say, okay, this is what you're gonna do from here on out. Because they going to do them the favor. They're not refusing it. A boss doesn't need a favor. He's the boss. One thing you say to boss, if your mother is sick, leave her alone and come here. It goes a little different. This life is above God, country, family. And then they say that if your kid, your wife, your mother, your father is dying in the fucking hospital, and we call for you, you come now. It's a rule. It sounds horrible. It's not really carried out to that point. They're just expressing how strong Cosa Nostra is in your life. That's what it's going to mean. And when you tell them yes, and you hear all of these things, you're putting Gosa Nostra above everything, including God.

[Michael Franzese]

Well, they didn't mention God to me.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I think they do. Without every thing. All right, maybe you want to leave God out, but no, they didn't mention Gods, okay? To every single wise guy who got made but you.

[Michael Franzese]

If they mentioned it, I would have said yes.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Okay?

[Michael Franzese]

I grew up Catholic, but Catholic Catholicism.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Didn'T mean anything to me at that point. Right.

[Michael Franzese]

Nothing. So I would have said, I believe in God, too.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

And I said it, but it's a hypothetical. In Other words, this is how strong this is? That's what they're telling you?

[Michael Franzese]

Yes.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

It's above everything we tell you to kill your best friend. You're gonna kill your best friend. You kill your brother, of course you're gonna fight for him as a made guy. But if he did the wrong thing and broke certain rules, then that's what you want.

[Interviewer/Host]

Michael, question for you, in that moment when they're asking that from you, are you in the back of your mind saying, if it comes down to me having to kill a friend or family, there's no way I'm going to do it? I'm going to, you know, I'm going to figure out a way to get away from it? Or are you saying, you know. You know, what, if they asked me to do it, I would do it? What are you telling yourself there's a difference between what we tell the individuals we're negotiating with versus what we're saying internally? What were you telling yourself, look at.

[Michael Franzese]

That point in time. And I'm not going to say I'm proud of it now, but I would have done whatever I was told to do. I just got it, okay?

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

And I'm going to take his side. You can't. This isn't a business meeting. This is not. Your life is on the line. And your family's life. By losing your life, you fuck up your whole family. So you're not going to lose your life because some guy broke the rules. You may love the guy, but you knew the rules. You broke the rules. Now I'm going to die because of you. And what about my family? I didn't break any rules. So he would have to, or he would just.

[Michael Franzese]

There's no negotiation.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

There's no negotiation.

[Interviewer/Host]

So if a hit was made and a job was assigned to you, there is no you negotiating with the boss, saying, can somebody else do it? I don't want to.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

No. Here's what could happen. And you can bring up a point, because I was. You can tell me, sammy, please, this guy here. And bring up your case, what you feel towards the guy or the reasons why you want to save the guy. And I'll hear, may work. It may work, it may. You know, this is devastating to Patrick, his entire family. The thing wasn't all that serious. Maybe we can tell him and make a different decision. All right, Patrick, we're gonna give it to you. But you gotta tell this kid, it's your kid. God forbid, your kid, get him the fuck out of New York. He can't come back Here. No more.

[Interviewer/Host]

Got it?

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

We won't kill him. But if he steps foot back in, New York will kill him. They can make those agreements. It's not total insanity. But if we tell you. No, no. I was told by John a couple times. And where I'm in a conversation to save the guy, frankly. Chico did it once with Louis Molino, a childhood friend. We're going to kill him as soon as he comes out. Please, Frankie. His kids sit on my lap. They call me Uncle Sammy. I called him Princess. I'll talk to him. I'll straighten this out. He betrayed us. Frankie didn't want to hear nothing. Frankie was killed four months after we killed. A couple of months after. Four months maybe after we killed Castellano. And I went to John and John said, I know what you're trying to do with Frankie. I know he refused it, bro. What he did was horrible. You really want this? Yeah. Yes. And I'll talk. I'll read him the riot act. Because he was just coming out of prison. Okay. I said, well, it worked. But let me just say one more thing. He did it again with rules and fucking all things up. And I went back to John again. And the answer was. Sam. Mind your business, my brother, Jeannie. And then we're going to take care of this. Don't talk to me about it. When a boss does that to you, there's no more talking. There's nothing when he gets that.

[Michael Franzese]

And I had two occasions during my time where I fought hard to save two people and I lost both times.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Both times. So he tried to save. I give him credit for that. That's what he can do. That and I give him credit that he's sitting here and saying, I tried and I lost.

[Interviewer/Host]

Were you a made man at that time or a couple?

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Meaning?

[Interviewer/Host]

Is there more credibility as a couple given the argument or one of each? Okay, got it.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

It's not more credibility. You could be underboss. I couldn't save him. It depends on what the person did.

[Michael Franzese]

Makes sense.

[Interviewer/Host]

Got it.

[Michael Franzese]

And in all honesty, both times they were wrong. They were dead wrong.

[Interviewer/Host]

Your guys were wrong. Okay, got it. So even though you tried to defend them, they were still wrong and they took them out. Why did you agree to want to do this?

[Patriotic Singer/Chorus]

Sit down.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

So I didn't want to get into this thing, but it was about Gosa Nostra. I'm a straight out gangster. Michael, I believe, is a straight out racketeer. There's two parts of Gozenoshi. Those are the two parts that everybody understands. It's not what you see in the movie all the time. There's a lot of background stuff. We're involved. I shouldn't say we're involved. I'm involved in a lot of good, bad and ugly things. I don't back away from anything I've ever done in my life. I broke a lot of rules, but the one I broke, there was a strong reason why I did that. And I felt that that's one of the reasons why I should sit down at this table with Michael. He had the Saint burned in his hand just like I did. So he's a friend of ours. It's important that my followers, probably his followers, and the whole world understand the real meaning of a sit down. It's not a matter of who wins and who loses. It's a matter of the public understanding who we are and what Gosa Nostra is. If they get that out, I won, he won. But more important than me or him, Gosarnastra wins.

[Michael Franzese]

I don't have the same feeling that I'm here to prove anything about Cosa Nostra. We were both Cosa Nostra. We both maybe have a different view of it in some ways, but in other ways, I think we feel the same. For me, you know, there's a lot of misinformation out there. A lot of misinformation maybe about you. I know a lot of misinformation about me. And as far as I'm concerned, we're the two real guys that are left in this life publicly that are able to talk about. And whatever we say at this table I know is going to be the truth. I believe it to be. And I think we're going to straighten out some things. I agree with you there. You know, as far as gangster, racketeer, no question I was more of a racketeer than a gangster. I don't hide from that. But I also know in the 20 some odd years I spent on a street when I was told to do something, I had to do it. You know, that we don't have a choice. So you do what you have to do. You know, I thought it was important when word got out that this might happen, that it really happens, that he didn't want to do it, I didn't want to do it for whatever reason. And I think we'll straighten some things out today. And we have maybe a different view of that life. I know why I got into it. I heard why you got into it. And I think it's important that, you know, we straighten that out Even between us. So that from this point forward, whatever, there's nothing else to say. We'll say everything that we have to say.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

During this time, I made probably just as much money for the family as Michael did. Maybe not as much. He was a big earner. I sat down with Paul Castellano on a table full of people, gangsters. And Paul Castellano, everybody knew, was basically a racketeer. He sat at the table one time. It's very, very rare that somebody is both a racketeer and a gangster. He said, we're very fortunate we have one in our family, maybe even two. Everybody was looking at him, stunned, listening. And he pointed to me, he said, sammy the Bull is both. I think he would know. The world already knows. I win unions all over the city of New York. I ran five, six, seven construction businesses at the same time. These are facts. So I'm as much of a racketeer as he is. I don't think he's as much of a gangster as I am.

[Interviewer/Host]

Your peak, you were saying you were making how much money per year at.

[Michael Franzese]

Your look in the gas business? We were bringing, and we were selling a half a billion gallons of gas a month. We were taking down 20, 30, 40 cents a gallon. Depending upon the deals we made. We bringing in five, eight million dollars a week. And I was paying up on that. But this was money that I earned. I know there's a lot of baloney around it. All of a sudden, gas pipe. I never even. I never even had to sit down with gas pipe in the Indian. Never, never. Everybody wants to claim credit for the gas. Let me tell you what happened with the gas. The other guys doing it. Some of the Russians were involved in it. Some of the Russian views were involved in it. I happen to have a guy, Larry. I originally know the story. We spoke about it. That came to me with a germ of an idea. And we knew how to grow it into what we grew it in. We did the most in that gas business, there's no doubt about it, because everybody came to us. John came to us through. Through Vicarina and tried to get a piece. Everybody was trying to get a piece of the action. But the bottom line is we created that.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

We had a piece without. Yeah, we created. Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Franzese]

I'm not saying it was all guys anyway.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Tony Pep and other guys were doing the gas. Let me tell my side of this.

[Michael Franzese]

There was guys into it. No.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

No doubt about it. But in my family, I know guys from the Russians started this.

[Michael Franzese]

They did not start. That's not true. Okay, let me. Sammy, I'm going to tell you something. Everybody's telling a story because they think they make it up. The Russians did not. I brought three Russians into the business with me. They couldn't get licensed. Gas Stop. This is all a matter of record. Everything I tell you is a matter of record. Mike Markowitz, Lev Persic, David Bogarty. They had a company called Gas Stop. The reason they came to me is because somebody beat him out of $7,000. They couldn't collect. And they came to me through somebody I knew. I brought them into the business because they couldn't get licensed. We expanded big time with them. No doubt about it.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

They were very aggressive. I can't think of. The captain who came to us, went to John. I'm trying to think his name. He was a guy in the Genovese family who had. And he asked John, are you in this cast business? He says that he was making so much money he didn't even know where to hide it anymore. And he said, I have a girlfriend that he wasn't even that crazy about. He said, I just bought a brand new Mercedes. I was sitting there. John said, you bought him a brand new Mercedes? He said, john, I don't even know where to put it anymore. So I just bought it, gave it to him. It's like giving a three cents to me. So there was a lot of guys in it. Tony Pep was in it. And I can't think. There was a ton of guys. And that other guy. I think I knew some of the Russians. This is the way I got it from the Russians, from other guys who were in it.

[Michael Franzese]

Was another guy.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

There was another guy's in it.

[Michael Franzese]

There's no doubt.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Let's hear what they told me. Maybe you could tell me they were lying, but that's okay because I don't give a. I wasn't in the gas business. But they said that the Russians are the ones that invented it. What did they do? They came to the United States and they opened up these companies, gas companies. And they turned around and they went to the gas companies and bought the gas and paid for it. So the gas. I'm going to use a hypothetical number, 50 cents a gallon. It becomes a dollar a gallon with the gas is with the tax. So they paid the 50 cents in that gallon and they got it. It's paid for. So they got to go and get stations to pump it into the stations. Not a station. We make them save 10 cents, whatever it is, and they pay the gas and the Tax to this car, gas is already paid. They hold the taxes. When it comes time, a year, a year and change. The tax money is not being paid to the irs. They start coming around. Where's the tax money? Would you do it? They close the company and they're gone. They're back in fucking Russia. Let me finish it and I give it to you. And that's the way it went. But here's their problem. Not that they needed your protection or mine or anybody else. What their problem is is that they were smart enough to look at the Italians and the Mafia and conclude with their connections. They have thousands of gas stations. So now we have it out. We only have 10 people we can convince or exaggerate to do it. But now we can go to them, make believe we're scared, and look for their protection. And we're going to make them make money. But they got to give us stations as well. That's what I heard. So good and totally.

[Michael Franzese]

And I don't mean total nonsense.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Okay, first of all, I wasn't in it.

[Michael Franzese]

You told it incorrectly, but you told it in reverse. Russians weren't buying gas. None of that. What happened originally, you can go back and see. The tax was being collected at the gas station level. You could have been anybody sitting in his room, owned a gas station, didn't pay the tax. Seven, eight months later, you closed down. Somebody else takes over. Now they got to pay the tax. The government was very slow in collecting. They were antiquated. What happened? We had Iorizo, had a small company called Vantage Petroleum. That's what he was doing. He had different people he installed in gas stations and they'd run the company. They'd run the gas station for a couple of months. When the government finally came down, they disappear a month later. New guys to have. Now the government thinks they get smart. They say, we're not going to collect at the gas station level anymore. We're going to require you to be a licensed wholesaler. You had to get licensed persons, couldn't get licenses. We were able to get licenses because we had connection. But here's what happened. Then they started collecting at the wholesale level, where the wholesaler collected the tax and we were responsible to pay the government. I had 18 different companies that were licensed to collect the tax. Nobody else had that because we had a connection to get the license. We had companies that were using out of Panama.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

And let me tell you, let me. Let me give.

[Michael Franzese]

Let me give Irizzo the credit. He was brilliant in how he figured out the scheme. I just helped him expand it and do what I had to do to protect it.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Was John.

[Michael Franzese]

I went away.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

When you talked about John and you were talking about him doing the gas or whatever, was this before Castellano or after?

[Michael Franzese]

It was before. That was before, yeah.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

He was doing gas after Castellano, after. And you were gone.

[Michael Franzese]

Yes.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

And so was this guy. I could get his name, but I can't think of it in the Genovese family. And I know other people who were doing it. I was never in it. When I even thought about doing it. John said, we got Tony Pep again. I can't think of the other guy's name. They're doing it for us. And everybody there's money is making money. There was even people in Providence who were doing it.

[Michael Franzese]

There's a problem with all of that, though. I went away because I. Rizzo, who created a big part of the scheme, became an informant. And he's the guy that told on everybody. I know he's a guy that told on everybody. But the bottom line, when I first got involved. And again, this comes to the money and power. I went to Junior when I realized what I had, and I said, junior, I'm going to show you more money than you ever saw before. He immediately said, no drugs. We don't deal in drugs. I said, junior, I hate drugs. You know that. I don't want to get into that. We don't deal with drugs. I said, it's gas. I said, but here's what's going to happen. I says, I got a guy, he's pretty smart. I believe in what he's doing. I said, but everybody and their brother is going to want to get into this. I didn't have the Russians at that moment. I said, everybody and their brother's going to want to get into this. When that happens, we're going to get distracted, destroyed, I said, because everybody's going to mess it up. I said, you got to protect me. You got to make me win every argument. You can't let anybody get involved. If you do that, I'll show you more money than you ever saw before. He said, show me. Don't talk. Show me. I was bringing him $2 million a week, and that bought a lot of loyalty. And when John. And the reason. Reason I had a problem with Vic Arena. I know we're going to talk about that is because Vic teamed up with John to come against me to get a piece of the gas business. Both.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I don't. I don't know.

[Michael Franzese]

Yeah, he did. This was in 81, 82, around there. And it didn't happen because they were trying to get me to service them. And I said, junior, if you're going to give these guys credit, then you're responsible to collect. I said, because I'm not going to go through that. Because gas in the ground is like money. You turn that, the next day, you got cash, you got a couple of million dollars of gas in the ground. That's money. Same thing.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Absolutely.

[Michael Franzese]

So we kept them out, but it wasn't the Russians. We brought the Russians in, some of them afterwards.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

And I went. I did time with one of the Russians. Yeah, I can't.

[Michael Franzese]

I can't speak for what happened afterwards. I know my three Russians were destroyed because Iris gave all three.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Yeah, well, they weren't doing that like you said, like you were doing with the gas. And I. I know you made a lot of money, but the Russians did it again on their own in a different way, and they were hooked all over the place.

[Michael Franzese]

The FBI blamed me for teaching your government, teaching the Russians how to defraud the government. The FBI blamed you? Yeah, they blamed me, they said, because now from the gas business, they went into the health business and they're taking money left and right in the health care scams. And it's all the Russians and Armenians, I believe these are Armenians.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Seriously, it's just, you gotta.

[Michael Franzese]

No, that's what they told me. They took me out to California and said, see all these? All the Armenians, Armenians running, they're scamming like crazy. I said, and they said, you taught them how to do it.

[Interviewer/Host]

Don't blame me, but the Armenians, we're going to go through a lot of different topics. We're going to cover the first Colombo war, second one, third one, we're going to talk about Gotti. There's going to be stories we're going to talk about that have to do with social events. Victor arena, there's a lot of things that we're going to go through. I want to kind of go through.

[Michael Franzese]

Some of the issues.

[Interviewer/Host]

The first one is Cosa Nostra. You kind of went through your story. Did it have the same meaning for you then as it does today?

[Michael Franzese]

No. No.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Look.

[Michael Franzese]

Sammy and I come from a different place, and maybe he was more ingrained in it than I was from a kid, as far as being involved, but from what I saw, and I want to make this clear, clear I'm not mad at anybody. I didn't take revenge on anybody. But I'm honest about it. It's not what it's cracked up to be. I saw guys get killed for the wrong reason. I saw jealousy and envy destroy my father in a lot of ways, destroy my family. I saw things happen that shouldn't have gotten happened. It's the honor is there to a degree, but when money and power come into play, it's a lot of times it's not there anymore. I'm honest about it now. I'm not condemning anybody else because I was part of it and I lived that way. I tried to be a little different in that regard. Sammy and I were different. I agree with you. Gangster, racketeer, you were both. I know you. I heard your reputation on the street. I was more a racketeer in that. When I had to do something. And look, let's get this out there. You're a made guy in that life. You got to do something. As many times as you're told to do it, you got to do it. Now, I may not be the guy they pointed to all the time because I was the guy bringing in the money. And I was respected for that. And it was substantial money, and that means something. But when I was told to do something, I had to do it, period. And there's times when I didn't like what I was doing at all. I wasn't comfortable with it. If I talk about it now, I'm still very uncomfortable. But number one, I'm not going to let anybody talk about me. And there's nobody on the street that could say that I was given an order and I didn't do it. And I'm never going to embarrass my father in that regard. So I did what I had to do during that time.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

And I respect you for that. And I respect you for what you're saying right now. Let me add one more. One more thing. Because you just put the whole Mafia on front street. As far as goes in Austria, as far as all of these ugly things, I agree with you 1000%. I was involved in a lot of those ugly things. And I know exactly how you feel. There's nobody who understands you more than me, I think and respects you for what you're saying. But let me add this to Cops have ugly things, politicians have ugly things. We do fucking wars and we bomb countries and kill men, women and children. So let's not get the Mafia is ugly and it did ugly things, but so did the rest of the fucking world.

[Michael Franzese]

But that doesn't make it right.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

It doesn't make it right. But you can't single out One thing, it makes it that there are a lot of ugly people in the Mafia. There's a lot of ugly cops, and I'll use that term. There's a lot of ugly politicians, governors, mayors, congress people, senators. We bomb and fucking destroy countries that are bullshit. I was taught to get killer. And I would have killed in Vietnam if I would have shipped there. I don't know one Vietnamese person I've ever met who's a bad person. And I was taught they were coming here. They're going to rape your mother, your sisters, and this and that. And training me. I'm stabbing the bag. Yeah, I'm going to kill them. I didn't meet no bad people. I never even seen one Vietnamese person. In 22 years of my prison stay, the only Vietnamese people I ever fucking saw did my fucking nails, toenails, and were the politest people I ever met. So there's ugliness all around us. It's not just the life. There's a lot of things in the Mafia that turn my stomach. I do videos. I knock some people's brains in some of the videos because I thought it was extremely ugly. People died. Should have never died.

[Michael Franzese]

I agree. But you know what? It's very personal to me. And I'll tell you. I'll tell you what. I love my father more than anything. And I respect the fact that they could have. I don't care what they did to him. He was never going to snitch on anybody, never going to talk. Never. I respect his principle. But in the same token, he destroyed our family. He put that. Let me finish. He put that life above our family. My mother was 33 years without a husband, 33 years at the end of her life with my father. Their relationship could only be called ugly.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

And you took that same oath.

[Michael Franzese]

Exactly.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

You just took the same oath, your mother and everybody at that time.

[Michael Franzese]

At that time.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

So he did the same. He didn't do anything ugly.

[Michael Franzese]

Yes, he did.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I mean, no, not that I know of. I know your father, too. I knew him as a man's man. He didn't do anything. He lived the life.

[Michael Franzese]

I know, Sammy, but. But here's the thing, okay? That life became before my family and as a result, what every maid guy does. I understand that. Family, but that doesn't make it right, Sammy.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I don't see it right.

[Michael Franzese]

Because we. No, because we take that oath. It doesn't mean we're taking the oath for the right thing. Okay? And for me, when you put something like that above your family and your Family is destroyed as a result of it. That's not a good thing. And I've said this all the time. Look, you did the same exact thing exactly 100%. I cop to that and I take full responsibility. But I have said this, and here's where we're going to disagree. Cosa Nostra is an evil life. It's evil. You know why? Because I don't know any family of any member of that life that hasn't been destroyed. And any lifestyle that does that to a family is a bad life. It's an evil life. I was part of it, so I'm taking responsibility for being part of it.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I'm not beat up on everybody who's got some evil in there. Churches have got some evil in it. Everybody's got some evil in.

[Michael Franzese]

It's not the same. We're taking an oath. We're saying that we're putting that life above God, above family.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

That's not I got you to admit to God part. But no, no, no, no.

[Michael Franzese]

Well, I'm using your words. I didn't take that specific oath.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

You're using my words out of your mouth.

[Michael Franzese]

I didn't take that specific oath at that time, but I would have.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Did I put a gun. Somebody put a gun at you to say that? No, I would have Listen, everybody. Cops take an oath. You said they want to lock up their mother and father if they're committing a crime.

[Michael Franzese]

That's what they say.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

So the only thing we ever hurt you if you commit a crime against causa nostra and you break the rules.

[Michael Franzese]

That's not true, Sammy. You can't say that's true.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

No, of course not. Listen, Roy Demeo let me get into this nut he became a serial killer. He was a bad guy, yes, but he's one apple. These cops, they're not all bad.

[Michael Franzese]

That's true.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Paul gave a good example. A lot of these cops are good people who do we call every time we're in trouble. They want to get rid of cops.

[Michael Franzese]

I am all for the Patrick gets.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

A heart attack right now. He's laying on the floor, there's no cops. I'm not giving him out to mouth.

[Michael Franzese]

So wait a minute.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I like the guy. So you and I agree.

[Michael Franzese]

Wait, wait, wait. You and I agree, we're not defunding the police.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

No, absolutely not.

[Michael Franzese]

And we're too. And we were two criminals and we don't want to defund them.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

So my reason, my ex wife is right now she's got copd. She's not well. You Had a daughter who wasn't well. God forbid something happens. Your wife seems to be a beautiful person. I'm not talking looks. She's good. She's beautiful.

[Michael Franzese]

She's beautiful.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Yeah, and she's beautiful, too. I miss. I didn't want to say that because maybe you get jealous. Maybe you think I'm flirting with your wife, but I'm not. You know I'm not. But if she gets sick, we're sitting here, she dials 91 1. That's going to save them.

[Michael Franzese]

So here's the. Here's. Here's the irony. You got two former criminals that have more sanity than half the people out there that want to defund them.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Yes. Yes.

[Michael Franzese]

Okay.

[Narrator/Host]

Coming up on Mafia States of America.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I love the life. I still like it.

[Michael Franzese]

Well, you got to know the life.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Sam and John, the betrayal. I said the same thing as you fought. Fuck this life and him.

[Michael Franzese]

Betrayal happens all the time.

[Interviewer/Host]

Is that inevitable?

[Michael Franzese]

It happens all the time.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Greed, envy, jealousy. That's a way of life.

[Michael Franzese]

My father later on, when he started, he was 100 years old. Said on tape, I killed a lot of guys. Not one or two, but a lot of guys.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I don't know how impressive that is. It's not impressive. I'm trying to make a. I'm saying that some sort of. Trying to make my son don't know who I killed.

[Interviewer/Host]

Did you ever kill someone as a made man?

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

You're not the best gangster ever. Go away.

[Interviewer/Host]

Sammy, what did Omerta mean to you?

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

It meant open your mouth when you were in a dentist's office.

[Michael Franzese]

Oh, what are you gonna do?

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

What am I gonna do? I'll break your fucking face. That's what the fuck I'll do.

[Patriotic Singer/Chorus]

Oh, beautiful for spacious skies for every grave majesty.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

America.

[Patriotic Singer/Chorus]

Peace on the. Oh, we cry to sh. Oh, beautiful.