Mafia States of America | Episode 10 - "The Last Confession"

Summary

PBD Podcast: Mafia States of America | Episode 10 - "The Last Confession"

Date: November 16, 2025
Host: Patrick Bet-David
Guests: Sammy "The Bull" Gravano & Michael Franzese (former mobsters)

---

Episode Overview

Episode 10, “The Last Confession,” delivers an intensely personal sit-down between two of America's most notorious ex-mobsters, Sammy “The Bull” Gravano and Michael Franzese. Moderated by Patrick Bet-David, the episode explores personal betrayals, the unraveling of sacred mob oaths, the interplay between faith and organized crime, how each man wants to be remembered, and the search for redemption or understanding in the twilight of their lives. With candid admissions, heated exchanges, and ultimately reconciliation, the conversation offers rare insight into the minds of two men who once lived—and left—the Mafia life.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Revisiting Old Grievances and Reputations

Sammy & Michael discuss how the world sees them and challenge statements made about each other in past interviews.

• Michael’s prior remarks on John Gotti and Sammy:
  • Michael: “On John Gotti's worst day, he was a better guy than Sammy on his worst day.” (03:52)
  • Michael insists this opinion was formed before he truly knew Sammy; much of it came from street rumors and advice from his father.
  • Michael: “What Sammy did on the street was. Was wrong.” (04:16)
• Sammy’s pushback:
  • He accuses Michael of perpetuating "bullshit stories" and making claims about their relationship that aren't true, such as saying they played cards together in MDC (Metropolitan Detention Center), which Sammy firmly asserts never happened.
  • Sammy: “I never knew you on the street and you never met me. You were never playing cards with me. So who has the psychological problem when you think you played cards with me?” (10:17)
• Disagreements over who cooperated and why:
  • Sammy details the strict personal limitations he placed on his cooperation, refusing to testify against his family or crew, providing context for the infamous "35 guys" he supposedly put away.
  • Sammy: “When I cooperated...I said, I will not cooperate against my family. One, two, I will not cooperate against my crew.” (13:36)
  • Michael eventually acknowledges, “I didn't know that, but...I believe everything that you said.” (19:55-19:58)

2. The Breaking of the Mafia Oath

Both reflect on what it means to break 'omertà' (the Mafia code of silence) and what drives a man to turn informant.

• Michael: “The bottom line is, as far as the street is concerned, we broke our oath.” (20:21)
• Sammy: Agrees that both are "out," but differentiates levels of betrayal and personal ethics.
• The moral complexity is highlighted:
  • Michael: “If you're part of a crime family and you're doing the wrong thing all the time, and you find God...That's what normal people do. You and I are not normal.” (21:09)
  • Sammy: “I'm normal as apple pie. I did six and a fucking half years in a whole straight.” (21:25)

3. The Catholic Church, Mob, and Spirituality

Exploring the Mafia’s historical connection to religion, particularly the Catholic Church.

• Sammy: Describes a complicated history—initial closeness, then distance during WWII when the church wouldn’t help Jews escape, which led to tensions. (22:33)
• Church bazaars and gambling:
  • Mob could not openly run gambling at church events, so the Church would handle the money and share proceeds.
  • Sammy: “We always gave it to the church, a priest or whoever who took it, took the money and cut it.” (24:40)
• No broad, illicit “Godfather-style” Vatican-Mafia conspiracy, only local-level entanglements.

4. Prison, Faith, and Transformation

Both men reflect on experiences in prison and what role religion, spirituality, and other cultures played in their survival and personal change.

• Sammy: Describes embracing different religious practices in prison (even joining Native American and Wiccan groups), primarily for benefits like smoking, but learned respect and the universal search for God:
  • Sammy: “I learned that religion is a path to God.... they all believe in God. Same thing, but they have a different path to God and different beliefs.” (27:05)
• Michael: Speaks of his unwavering Christian faith and how it shapes his mission in life:
  • Michael: “I am a Christian...it is my responsibility as a Christian to share what I believe in. And I've been doing that for 25 years.” (34:18)

5. Thoughts on Mortality, Legacy, and Family

Moving reflections on aging, how they want to be remembered, and the meaning found in family.

• Sammy:
  • Hopes for an afterlife, but is at peace either way. Believes honesty is his saving grace:
    • Sammy: “If there is a God, he's gonna say you were cool. He didn't lie about things...” (29:41)
  • Motivated to provide for his family, not out of greed but to restore honor and leave something positive behind.
    • Sammy: “I'm doing a podcast because I want to do the story of my life...so that's what I would like to put out there.” (31:22)
• Michael:
  • Hopes to be remembered by his family as someone who turned his life around, giving rather than taking, and living out his faith:
    • Michael: “I want my kids when I leave this earth to say, you know, I love my dad, and I was proud of him. And he did turn his life around. And...one of the greatest feelings...is when people get something from you, out of you.” (35:59)

6. Reconciliation and Mutual Respect

The episode crescendos with vulnerability, apologies, and mutual forgiveness.

• Apologies exchanged for harsh words and past misjudgments.
  • Michael: “If I said anything that was offensive to you, I apologize. In the past… I got to know you now and… Sometimes you just don't talk unless you know somebody.” (38:59)
  • Sammy: “I'm gonna forget the past… Like when we were made. The past don't matter no more. I feel that this is the same thing. This is just as important to me as the day I took an oath. I respect you. I love you. It's in the past.” (39:29)
• Both affirm that this conversation itself becomes part of their legacy, offering honesty, redemption, and a glimpse of what “true” Cosa Nostra could represent at its best.
  • Sammy: “This is a beautiful part of Gosu Nostra that I totally respect and I love. Like I said, this is what I love. This is true Gozen Ostra and this is good goes in ostro. Not the ugliest shit.” (41:00)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|------------------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:52 | Michael Franzese | “On John Gotti's worst day, he was a better guy than Sammy on his worst day.” | | 10:17 | Sammy Gravano | “I never knew you on the street and you never met me. You were never playing cards with me...” | | 13:36 | Sammy Gravano | “When I cooperated...I said, I will not cooperate against my family. One, two, I will not cooperate against my crew.” | | 20:21 | Michael Franzese | “The bottom line is, as far as the street is concerned, we broke our oath.” | | 21:25 | Sammy Gravano | “I'm normal as apple pie. I did six and a fucking half years in a whole straight.” | | 24:40 | Sammy Gravano | “We always gave it to the church, a priest or whoever who took it, took the money and cut it.” | | 27:05 | Sammy Gravano | “I learned that religion is a path to God.... they all believe in God. Same thing, but they have a different path to God and different beliefs.” | | 29:41 | Sammy Gravano | “If there is a God, he's gonna say you were cool. He didn't lie about things...” | | 31:22 | Sammy Gravano | “I'm doing a podcast because I want to do the story of my life...so that's what I would like to put out there.” | | 35:59 | Michael Franzese | “I want my kids when I leave this earth to say, you know, I love my dad, and I was proud of him. And he did turn his life around.” | | 38:59 | Michael Franzese | “If I said anything that was offensive to you, I apologize. In the past... I got to know you now...” | | 39:29 | Sammy Gravano | “I'm gonna forget the past… Like when we were made. The past don't matter no more. I feel that this is the same thing. This is just as important to me as the day I took an oath. I respect you. I love you. It's in the past.” | | 41:00 | Sammy Gravano | “This is a beautiful part of Gosu Nostra that I totally respect and I love…this is good goes in ostro. Not the ugliest shit.” |

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• [03:52] – Michael on John Gotti vs. Sammy
• [10:17] – Sammy counters Michael’s “played cards together in prison” claim
• [13:36] – Sammy details the limits to his cooperation and the myth of the “35 guys”
• [20:21] – Both reflect on the core idea of breaking their mob oath
• [22:33] – Discussion on the Catholic Church’s historical relationship to the Mafia
• [27:05] – Sammy discusses finding meaning in different religions in prison
• [29:41] – Sammy shares hopes for the afterlife and facing judgment
• [31:22] – Sammy on legacy, family, and why he tells his story
• [35:59] – Michael’s wishes for his family’s memory of him
• [39:29] – Sammy and Michael's mutual apology and forgiveness
• [41:00] – Sammy reflects on the importance of this conversation as part of his 'true' legacy

---

Conclusion

This episode is a raw, poignant confession and reconciliation between two ex-mobsters grappling with their legacies. Through stories, arguments, and honest admissions, both Sammy and Michael expose the toll and truths of the Mafia life and the possibilities of personal transformation. Listeners receive not just an inside look at Mafia code, but universal lessons on forgiveness, faith, redemption, and the enduring significance of family and self-honesty.

---

For anyone seeking to understand not only the history, but the lived reality and lasting emotional aftermath of organized crime, "The Last Confession" is required listening.

Transcript

[Commercial Narrator]

Baking Hershey's Kisses peanut butter blossoms is the perfect way to celebrate the holiday season with friends and family with their classic rich creamy milk chocolate taste. There's no better way to heartwarm the holidays than by baking with Kisses chocolates. Find Hershey's Kisses holiday chocolates at your favorite retailer. The holidays are all about family, but at the Chrysler Wrap of the Year sales event, it's all about you. Enjoy every mile in the most awarded minivan in America, the Chrysler Pacifica. With the most standard safety features, features in its class, available Stow n go seating and the available stow and back built in vacuum. Make the most of the holidays with a great deal at the Chrysler Pacifica Wrap of the Year sales event based on Ward's small van segment. Based upon the latest available competitor information, Chrysler is a registered trademark of FCA US llc.

[Narrator]

Previously on Mafia States of America.

[Interviewer]

What is Cosa Nostra to you and does it still have the same meaning today as it did back in the 80s?

[Sammy]

I love the life. I still like it.

[Michael]

If that night doesn't happen, I would have never walked away from that life.

[Interviewer]

What caused the fall of the mob? Was it Pistone? Was it Giuliani? Was it Valachi?

[Michael]

If I can fill in the people up to 1983, I have a RICO case. Are you sorry for the things that you did in that life?

[Sammy]

I never would have cooperated. I would have killed him. You're a fucking rat. You want to talk about respect?

[Michael]

You want to talk like that?

[Poetry Reader]

America, speak America. From sea to sh.

[Narrator]

You know, if you look at Michael and you look at Sammy, look what they both accomplished as gangsters or racketeers, whatever you want. Made millions of dollars. Both of them, Both of them. They could have been anything. It was unlimited, what they could have done. But that's how it is. You make a left, you end up facing 40 years, you make a right, you end up being a CEO of a company for 40 years. The choices you make will shape your life forever. And they made the wrong choice. They're trying to make it right now, which is admirable, but they made the wrong choice. Learn from that.

[Interviewer]

I want to show you this one clip, Michael. This is you with Tyson, and he asked you, I think about John and I asked you if you've seen this before. You've seen it before, but I want to get a reaction from you, Michael. I think you already know where this thing's going and just want to see for full optics. This is a year and a half ago. I think this is a year ago, July 24, 2020. And get a reaction on this.

[Michael]

You know, I always say this. On John Gotti's worst day, he was a better guy than Sammy on his worst day. I mean, I wasn't a fan of his. He had kind of a Napoleon complex, and it was a small guy, and he was just very arrogant. So a lot of people didn't get along with him. You know, he was a different crew than me, but we still didn't get along.

[Interviewer]

Has your position changed since then, Michael?

[Michael]

Yeah. And listen, I'm not going to back off of the statement because I said it. But you got to understand this. At that time, this was before I knew Sammy, before we had this relationship that we had. All I knew is what I had many conversations with my father, had many conversations with people. And look at that time, what Sammy did on the street was. Was wrong. And, you know, look, people have said to me, you know, or Sammy says, john, he had a reason for doing what he did with John. And I'll take it at face value. If Sammy says it, he said it. But, you know, guys have said that, and I've said that to people, and guys have said to me, okay, Michael, but what about the other 35 guys?

[Sammy]

I didn't say against Michael? There's a number of people who said it. The FBI, state police, everybody. As far as that. Well, let's put police on the side. His lawyer, the lawyer we called in.

[Michael]

I'm not doubting it. I'm not doubting what you said.

[Sammy]

Well, it's more than doubt. It's not that you'll take it. There's not my word. You said you'll take my word. It's not my word. There's word from everybody, and there's word even now from Frankie Locasio, who's been trying to. Well, let's put that on the side. Whatever.

[Michael]

Let me answer the question.

[Sammy]

Go ahead, answer the question.

[Michael]

I accept everything that you're saying 100%. But at that time, and I even said that, I said I heard certain things like this, and it came back to me, well, what about the other 35 guys that he testified against? And there was a lot of pushback on that, because that was the feeling.

[Sammy]

Sammy, that was the thing to say for you, because that's some bullshit stories that you make up. We'll get into a few of those stories. So here. I don't even know if you know John Gotti personally. I. I really don't know the extent that you knew it. You can Answer it later. I don't want to.

[Michael]

Why would I say.

[Sammy]

Why would you say John Gotti pimple on.

[Michael]

I didn't say that John Gotti. I didn't say that John Gotti doesn't impress me to the point where I got to tell people I know him. I don't need to make a name off of John Gotti. I have my own thing to say.

[Sammy]

No, no, no.

[Michael]

I. I don't. I didn't make my name off of John Gotti, nor do I have to.

[Sammy]

Gotti and your name. How about what he just said? You should say. Yeah, that tape to Mike Tyson, that on John's. I'm explaining why I already know there's going to be an explanation today.

[Michael]

Yes, I just explained it.

[Sammy]

I didn't hear it. Let me see. Okay, maybe I'm a little.

[Michael]

What I said during that time before I met you, that was the word on the street. Sammy did this. Sammy did that. Well, he testified against John for a reason. But what about the other 35 guys that he testified against? Is there a reason for that? Was everybody going to turn against Sammy? This is what was on the street. This is what I was told. This is the discussion I had with my father. Because as a matter of fact, how many people. Let me finish, Sammy.

[Sammy]

Let me.

[Michael]

I Don't interrupt you. Let me. This was the discussion I had with him because my dad didn't like John either. Didn't like him at all. Because as a matter of fact, I had a sit down with my father, John Gotti and Kali DiPietro. My dad was there at that time. The four of us met. Kali later got killed. And you know what happened with John. We had a sit down. So I don't have to pretend that I knew John. Pretending I know John doesn't do anything for me. I'm not one of these guys that have to use John's name, not you, to make a. To get recognized. I don't need John Gotti for that.

[Sammy]

Oh, I certainly don't need him.

[Michael]

You don't need him?

[Interviewer]

No.

[Michael]

But there are guys that mention his name because they do need him.

[Sammy]

Let's get back to that little statement. I want to stick on that statement for a little bit to say on John's worst day. Now, you said this with Mike Price, and that's really not that long ago. And there's so much evidence how much damage he did now. Back then, the day I cooperated, people said all kinds of things. I have people now getting in touch with me who I knew 40 and 50 years ago in droves. People who didn't cooperate, people who are still in the Mafia. I will never release a name. Men and women. So, yes, the first day is an explosion. But I wouldn't have all these people in touch with me now or respecting me now. Like solving a couple of your problems where they were bad mountain you. I didn't say that. I said the opposite.

[Michael]

You call me. You called me a liar and you said, I'm a BS Christian.

[Sammy]

So let's just take one thing at a time.

[Michael]

Yeah, but don't tell me you didn't say anything.

[Sammy]

Yeah, I'm going to say a couple.

[Michael]

You told me you don't believe anything I said, so.

[Sammy]

No, I said there are things that you said like that.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Sammy]

In other words, I have a Napoleon attitude. Now I am sure. But I'm fucking ferocious.

[Michael]

Sure. I know that.

[Sammy]

I hate fucking people your height. So I don't really have a Napoleon. Maybe it is a Napoleon attitude. Maybe it is.

[Michael]

Jimmy, that was.

[Sammy]

But I helped a lot. A lot of fucking people. Fuck the street and the word on the street. Most of the people who said something were shit. The real tough guys, the real tough guys who were in there, Johnny Kinnick, Gene, I could name a hundred. Big Louie, a hundred of them. I never heard a word out of them. You sat down in another interview that I saw where you said, an interviewer, did you know Sammy? You said, yes.

[Michael]

I was like, we met.

[Sammy]

We met in mdc. We played cards and he has this Napoleon attitude. You said it again and then you said, I don't remember. And he had psychological problem and he was pulled out and transferred right away. So I look at it and I say, who has a psychological problem? Me. What's the record shows I was never in mdc. I never knew you on the street and you never met me. You were never playing cards with me. So who has the psychological problem when you think you played cards with me? That's what you told in an interview. I could get the interview. So. And I'm not mad at it. So I said, when somebody asked me, I said, that's a lie. Now his Christian stuff. I said, I really don't know. I heard a lot of guys, they found Jesus in prison, they found God in prison because they want to get out and they want show the parole boards and whatever how good they are and they're corrupt. I used to play cards with guys. They go to the bathroom, they come back, we play cards and they would cheat. I said, I thought you became a Christian. I thought you found God 10 minutes ago. You're cheating right now. So I don't know who found Jesus. And I said, maybe he did find God. I respect that. I believe in God as well. I said, I think it was in an interview I did with Fox. I said, but when you listen to the whole interview, I think you did. I said, it seems like a good family man. He's got a good family. He seems honorable. I got to know him a little bit. I didn't know him back then. He seems honorable. I like him. So I did call you a lie in that. That you lie about certain things. Now when you say you sat down and played cards with me in the prison I was never in, I'll get that. I'll back it up some way and I'll put it on my video if I can give it to them and I'll show you. And I said that that's a lie and a few other things that you had said. So a lot of guys text me all the time about certain things. Gene Borelli, all kinds of guys. Guys that you and you, rightfully so. They weren't born. They don't know me. I agree with that. But I never went with them and said anything. I stopped them. Stop it with him. He didn't do nothing to hurt you. Let me talk about cooperation. How about the 35 guys? This is known by the whole government. When I cooperated and I sat with them, I said, I will not cooperate against my family. One, two, I will not cooperate against my crew. Why? I ordered them to come on hits with me. They kill with me. They did all kinds of things. I can't put them in prison. Two, three. There's a woman who helped me rig a trial. She didn't want no money. She didn't want to do anything. I will not cooperate against Harvard. So. And I said, I will not be a cooperator like everybody else forever. I will give you two years and you can indict cases. They said, we can't get that in a written agreement. But what we could do, you have so much information in two years, it'll be your choice. But if we indict something in two years, within that period, good faith. So if it's postponed and postponed, you can cooperate in that case. Good. And that's it. So that was my deal. When my deal expired, they asked me 400,000 fucking times to cooperate. And I never cooperated. Never against any. They caught Bosco, who was the head of the. The Westies. He was the boss. He left the country came back. When I got indicted in Arizona on.

[Advertiser Voice]

My case, I had that dream again. My small business needs to hire, but I don't use LinkedIn and I hire wrong. So our orders get all backed up. More drowning in paperwork than actually drowning. Carol is fighting off sharks with a snake date where pirates are pillaging the office copier. And then I wake up. Don't let hiring nightmares ruin your dreams. LinkedIn jobs new AI assistant goes beyond the resume, using unique insights to deliver a smarter shortlist. Post your job for [e-mail] Quality Start hiring today with LinkedIn.

With Black Friday savings at the Home Depot, you can get up to $1,400 off plus get free delivery on select appliances like LG, America's most reliable line of appliances. Check out the newest LG refrigerator with new mini craft ice straight from the dispenser shop. Black Friday savings on select LG appliances plus get free delivery now at the Home Depot. Free delivery on appliance purchases of $396 or more. Offer valid 11.5through12 3 US only. See store online for details.

[Sammy]

I was facing a lot of time. They came to me. We can help you. Good. Help me. What do you want to do? They get back to me. You can get anywhere between five and seven years. That's great. What about my son? What about my son in law in this case? We could help them too. If you want to give me five to seven, then give them them two to three. Yeah, we could do that. But you have to do stuff. Have to do what? You have to cooperate again. You never cooperate. Against who? Bosco and your family. Whoever's involved in this case. I didn't cooperate against Bosco. They had to release him from prison. They held him five months. I'm the only witness. Me and him rigged the Gotti trial. The only guy could have put him away. I didn't do it and I wouldn't testify against my family. And I wasn't getting five or seven. I wasn't even getting 12 to 15. They gave me an upward departure. They gave me 20 and 19 with the state of Arizona. I get indicted on a cold case with the Iceman. They offered me a deal again. I faced 30 to life. I was faced. I was sentenced to 20, 19 running together. And I was facing a brand new case of 30 to life for a cold case killed in the cop. They wanted to me to do certain things and all they would give me to close this cold case out is 20 running together with the feds. Not one day I told them go themselves. Sammy, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is the guy who put 35 people away. Then as a cooper, then as a cooperator. One more thing that's. I. I listen to you, Michael. And you told me. Let me explain. I listened to you.

[Michael]

Go ahead.

[Sammy]

Then I turned around and I was a cooperating witness for the defense in nine different cases. That's why the government hated me, maybe still hates me in nine different cases for the Mafia or mafiosos. And now for the past three and a half years, I've been fighting to get Frankie Locasio out. His lawyer said, you have nothing to gain because I'm not talking with Frankie or his family or anybody. I just talked with Charlie Canisio. I made my lawyer with their lawyer. The lawyer said to Charlie, and then he told me, you have nothing to gain and everything to lose as you fight to get him out of prison. I says, yeah, I started at 72. I don't give a fuck. I live my life. What I'm going to say is the truth. So I'm not worried about it. If lo and behold, they want to put me back or they want to destroy my life. I've been in that position all my life, and I still fight. The 2nd Circuit just told the judge he has to have a hearing. So in two or three months, I'll be in Manhattan in a hearing to get Frankie Licasio out. So the 35 guys, and some of those 35 guys sent me messages. Wasn't me. It was me, but it was John Gotti. Okay, go ahead.

[Michael]

Okay. And that's all well and good, and I hear everything you said and there's an explanation for everything.

[Sammy]

There's no explanation. The explanation. When you say it's all well and good, you should sit there and say, I apologize. I don't even know all this that you're just telling me now, but go ahead.

[Michael]

What, that I'm telling you now what.

[Sammy]

I just told you? My.

[Michael]

Yeah, I didn't know that, but.

[Sammy]

All right, so get it now. You know it.

[Michael]

I believe everything that you said.

[Sammy]

Let's fact to it.

[Michael]

Okay, but what does it matter, Sammy? You and I broke the oath.

[Sammy]

It don't matter.

[Michael]

It doesn't matter.

[Sammy]

I don't deny I broke the oath. No, I never did.

[Michael]

So the bottom line is we can give an explanation for everything. Yesterday I started and I told you one thing, okay? When I talked about Omerta, I betrayed my oath.

[Sammy]

Right? Right.

[Michael]

There's no explanation. There's no. I did it for the right reason, because I married. I can say everything in the world. The bottom line is, as far as the street is concerned, we broke our oath.

[Sammy]

Yeah, you did it for your reasons. Was that you were saying, my father, no matter what, he didn't break the oath.

[Michael]

He didn't.

[Sammy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm saying I was defending people who broke the oath. Not just me, but hundreds of them now for different reasons. I already told the story about a kid who was facing fucking three years and wanted to go in and win his protection. That's a rat.

[Michael]

And in the real world, they're right. In our world, they're wrong.

[Sammy]

Period. I don't know if they're right in any world, Sammy. I mean, it depends on what they're doing. If you're part of a crime.

[Michael]

Let me tell you something. If you're part of a crime family and you're doing the wrong thing all the time, and you find God, you really find God and you say, you know what? This is an evil life and I got to do the right thing. That's what normal people do. You and I are not normal.

[Sammy]

I'm normal as apple pie. I did six and a fucking half years in a whole straight.

[Michael]

Sammy.

[Sammy]

I'm as normal as apple pie.

[Michael]

No, we're not.

[Sammy]

That couldn't stop me. That couldn't break me. I'm normal.

[Michael]

We are not normal.

[Sammy]

Maybe you're not.

[Michael]

We are not normal. I spent 29 months and seven days in a hole.

[Sammy]

I don't believe in anything. I believe in God, but I don't have to lean on God for forgiveness for what I did.

[Michael]

I lean on God.

[Sammy]

Well, you can lean on him all you want.

[Michael]

That's what normal people do.

[Interviewer]

How about the Catholic Church? You know, you hear about the involvement, you always hear, well, the Catholic Church and, you know, the families were kind of together and, you know, Toto died. You know, they came to his funeral. The Catholic Church came, but then gradually they distance themselves. Once he died, for the longest time, they wouldn't even say, well, no, it's just a mutual understanding. And the word they use is a mutual. You have a mutual tolerance for each other. What happened during that time? Is there anything, any insight you have on how the Catholic Church was viewed by the mob?

[Sammy]

Yes, I do. The Church was viewed very, very strongly by the mob in Italy to the Popes. And it was in. It was in Italy and they were very protective of them all the time. It really started to break up, from what I understand. And old timers who spoke for Me that during World War II, when the Jews were being killed in Germany, the Italians were trying. They had relationships with a lot of Jews and try to smuggle them out, sneak them out into boats and ships as Italians, dress them a little different, do their hair and whatever, sneak them out. And they went to the church. It was Pope pius XII or 13th, and they asked the church to help this whole situation, and the church backed up on them. And that caused a lot of tension between the Mafia and the church. It went on, and they tightened up that relationship a while. And in the United States, I think the Mafia was always close with the church. There was always. You go in Brooklyn, you always found statues in backyards or in front yards, and they had a relationship with them.

[Michael]

But I don't think if you're driving at some. I never seen any illicit relationship between the two.

[Interviewer]

That's what I'm looking at. Was there anything like that or.

[Michael]

No, I never seen it.

[Interviewer]

It was just a mutual tolerance of respect.

[Sammy]

How about the bazaars? How about the gambling in the bazaars on Little Italy? They gave it to the church. The church ran it because we couldn't. So the church ran it, took the money and cut it up with the mob. So it's not totally.

[Michael]

But those bazaars were legal in the. In those?

[Sammy]

Yes, but we. We never, like. We weren't allowed to have the gambling.

[Michael]

Right.

[Sammy]

We always gave it to the church, a priest or whoever who took it, took the money and cut it. Yeah.

[Michael]

That's a local thing, I think. Patrick, you're driving out, like in Godfather 3, they tried to show this whole relationship with the church and the mob, and I never heard of it or never experienced it. Well, you're on a local church, maybe, something like that, But, I mean, I don't know if you've ever heard of any illicit relationship.

[Sammy]

No, no. It was money transacted. There was a guy who was part of the church, and he became an informant. I don't know if you ever heard of this.

[Michael]

No.

[Sammy]

Became an informant. And during the break, there was the water, when you sit on the stand, and somebody poisoned the water with arsenic. This guy from the church, when he took the stand and was going to talk, he took a sip of that water and he died right in the corner. So there was relationships with monies. There was relationships with a lot of things, as far as I remember, or was talked about, and I don't think it was actually.

[Michael]

Shinjiganti's brother was a priest, and he.

[Sammy]

Set up all the construction.

[Michael]

He was very Active, but there, again, not on the level, like with the Vatican and the Mafia working together. I never heard that. As a matter of fact, no.

[Sammy]

No, it was. I don't think it was that deep.

[Interviewer]

That's. That's kind of what I was looking for. Even Victor Oreno, I think, at the tail end, became a Catholic priest before he was sent to the mental. He was a Catholic priest for a while. In jail, I believe. I think I read that song, Vic Victor.

[Sammy]

Yeah. He became a Catholic priest.

[Michael]

He became. He found God in church, in prison, and became a strong Catholic. I don't know if he was a priest, but.

[Sammy]

Wow. I thought I had a. I became an Indian.

[Michael]

I can see that.

[Sammy]

In jail.

[Michael]

I did used to go into sweat lodges.

[Sammy]

Yes. Not in the sweat lodge, but in the group. It started off. I think it was 2004. I was in prison, and they stopped all smoking, and I wanted to smoke, and I used to pass the Indian, you know, group. They passed the pipe around. They're smoking the pipe. And I went to them and I said, could I get in there? He said, if you go to the unit manager in the federal prison, they could change your religion. You want to be an Indian, they'll do it. And you're accepted with us if you want. And I did it just a small. I'd steal a little bit of the tobacco to bring it back to myself at night. Now, I did it on a fake, but when I sat with them, I learned something. I learned a little bit about their religion, how they pray, how they do everything. And I learned a lot of things. I learned that religion is a path to God. All the religions believe in God. Christians have it, the Jews have it, Indians have it. Another guy came to me with wicca, and he says, you're not an Indian. Why don't you join our group? What's that? Wicca. I didn't even know what that was. I joined their group, too, and I learned their stuff. But I learned that every single. Whether you're a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim, no matter what you are, they all believe in God. Same thing, but they have a different path to God and different beliefs. And that's what I saw in there. And I stayed in this Indian thing for five years, my last five years in prison. And I respected them. Smoked my brains out a little bit once a week. I found another thing, which is crazy, when I got into that little group and we passed the pipe. They pray for each other. You don't pray for yourself. You always pray for the next guy and I got to really, really like it. And no, I'm not gonna do that.

[Interviewer]

I'm glad you stopped smoking cigarettes. That's a good thing to know that you're no longer smoking cigarettes.

[Sammy]

And, you know, but, but that's, that's the way it was. And I learned different religions, different beliefs. A Muslim guy asked me to join them, and I said no. He said, why? I said, I love pork.

[Interviewer]

Makes sense.

[Sammy]

And I'm not giving you pork.

[Interviewer]

You're 76 now. What do you think is going to.

[Sammy]

Happen when you die?

[Interviewer]

Do you think about that, like at 76? Or you, you know, you're by yourself, you're in bed, you know, you're thinking. I'm assuming these are different thoughts at this age. I asked my dad these questions all the time. He's seven. And I said, dad, what are you thinking about nowadays? What's on your mind? What are you thinking? What are you thinking about afterlife at this age? Sammy?

[Sammy]

76, I'm thinking and I'm hoping there's another life after this and whatever is going to be. I face things all the time differently. When I cooperated. It was like going and into a whole other world from what I always was. And a lot of things I did. It'll just be another path. I think I'm safe. I think I'm safe for this reason. I don't bullshit, I don't lie, I don't exaggerate. I think if there is a God, he's gonna say you were cool. He didn't lie about things you think he's gonna say.

[Interviewer]

You think he's going to accept you to go to heaven?

[Sammy]

More than likely. Here's why. We believe in God and we believe in. I think I'm in deep water now, but I believe in God and I believe that he forms all forms of life. He makes lions, he makes lambs. I'm a lion and he made me. I don't think he's gonna be all that mad at me if he is. He is. Then I'll get on the bus with the strippers and the hookers and everybody else, and I'll go over there, wherever he's gonna send me. But I think I'll be okay. I really don't. Meaning.

[Interviewer]

Either way, you're gonna be okay whichever bus you're gonna got it.

[Sammy]

Unless that bus takes off. Hold that thing up. I'll be right there.

[Interviewer]

How you want to be remembered at this point, you got kids, you got grandkids. How do you want to be remembered?

[Sammy]

That's important to me. And I try to live my life now for all those reasons. Michael knows my son. He knows a little bit of my family, my daughter, my son. I'm starting to know his family. Like I had said, Michael's got a great family and a great. The way he handles them. And I don't mean he handles them in any kind of a way, respects them. He didn't have his wedding band on the other day and it bothered him. I actually like that because he cared about what his wife would think. He cared about it. I don't know what his wife would think or say. And I don't. It's not. It's none of my business. So I think I am interested in my family. I take care of them. I come out of prison in September, will be four years. I came out with $430 in my pocket, dead broke. I went for food stamps. My ex wife, my daughter, my son went there. They took me. I went for food stamps. I think I got one. I. I got Social Security. They bought me clothes, they helped me. And I'm obsessed to make. Make it again. Not for money, not for I give a shit about what kind of car or what kind of jewelry. And Michael, I think, could confirm this. I never cared about all that jazz, all that bullshit. But I want to leave my family, right? And more importantly, I want. I'm doing a podcast because I want to do the story of my life. I want my kids who already know me, but my grandchildren and my great grandchildren to come. They're not here. And to say, that's my Poppy. That's what he was. He was a bad dude. But that's. Here's his whole story. I don't think he's. It was that bad. So that's what I would like to put out there. People who were loyal to me, people who were good to me. I'm right there with all of that. And that's all I care about. I'm 76. I don't give a shit about tons of money. I want to make money, but that's not my first goal. My first goal is to do all those things. You know how I feel. I got a great team around me helping me. I love them. They're family to me. You know, how I treat them at work, give them nicknames and how I talk to them. Them. I want to help them too. I want to help who's ever been good to me or my family. And I've changed my life. And like I said, I believe in God. I don't preach much. I'm not going to become a priest. I've seen other religions, and I respect them all because it's a path to God.

[Interviewer]

Michael, how about yourself? How do you want to remember that?

[Michael]

Well, first of all, I love what Sammy just said, and I believe you 100%. Not that whether that matters or not, but I do.

[Sammy]

It does matter.

[Michael]

I do believe you 100%. I love what you had to say. And I think that's one of the reasons why Juliana should have sat down here and listened to him. And I would tell that to Giuliani myself, but, you know, look, unlike Sammy and I hope to spend a lot more time with you for another reason, I am a Christian. I don't impose my faith on anybody, and I don't. It's not my job to turn anybody into a Christian. But it is my job or it is my responsibility as a Christian to share what I believe in. And I've been doing that for 25 years. And I think a lot of people have come to the Lord because of my testimony, my story, and that's what God empowers us to do. For me, and I hope we spend some time, because you're a serious guy, and I think you'll listen. And if you don't believe me, you'll tell me you're full of shape. I appreciate that, but I think you'll listen. But, you know, for me, look, I feel like I'm one of the most blessed guys on the planet. I probably should be dead or in prison for the rest of my life for the things that I did for so long. Reason I'm not. I believe God had a different plan and a purpose for me. It's been obvious over the past 25 years, and I've been trying to do the best I can with that responsibility.

[Sammy]

So.

[Michael]

I love my family. I want my family. You know, I just turned 70. I don't know about you, Sammy, but 60 didn't hit me. 50 didn't hit me. But when I heard 70, I said, man, we're getting up there.

[Sammy]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Michael]

We're getting up there.

[Sammy]

Wait until you hit 72. It starts happening a lot quicker. 72 and a half. Whoa. Every six months. Now, I don't want to think about.

[Michael]

It, but I'm saying it's 70. You know, you get to realize, even though my father was 103, time is moving on us. And I want my kids when I leave this earth to say, you know, I love my dad, and I was proud of him. And he did turn his life around. And, you know, and I found out a lot in the last several years, is that, you know, one of the greatest feelings you can get is when people get something from you, out of you. It is a lot more better in this life to give rather than to receive. There's a lot of satisfaction. But unlike you, I believe I'm going to heaven, Sammy, and not because I earned it, because I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe he died on the cross, and I believe that my sins are forgiven. The one thing I always check and balance, my is one of the four words. When I get to the pearly gates and I stand in front of the Lord, the four words that I dread hearing is, I never knew you. And there's a passage in the Bible where people say, you know what? I drove out demons in your name, and I helped this and that. But they only did it for themselves. And they didn't do it for the right reason. They didn't do it because. Because they love the Lord. And sometimes you worry about that. You know, sometimes I'll go and speak in front of 10,000 people, and they're all praising my name and thank God for my wife, because I'll get off the stage. And she looks at me and she says, remember, you're a lot more blessed than you are good. And she takes me right down. And we need. I found out in life, Patrick, you are, in life, who you are accountable to. When I was in the Mobile, I was accountable to my oath, accountable to my father, accountable to be the best possible mob guy could be. As a result, that's the lifestyle I lived. When I got out, I became accountable to God, my wife. I have my daughter sitting here. I want her to be proud of me. I don't want to do the wrong thing to put them back in jeopardy. I go to jail, it impacts my whole family. As we know, we hurt our families. Not intentionally, but we did. So you want to just, you know, live your life doing the right thing, and I hope people see that.

[Sammy]

Well, I see. That's a good speech. Do we get up and kiss now? Can I kiss you? Because, I mean, that's a great speech, but I think it's coming from your heart.

[Michael]

It is.

[Sammy]

And that's what I. Like I said I saw you with your family and how you act. Those things mean something to me. I think this is a truthful conversation that I see in you. So, again, I wasn't going to come to this meeting with you. I'm glad I did. Giuliani I don't care about him, but I care about that. I came here and I came here because you were a friend of ours and you lived the life. So did I. You left the life. I left the life. Forget the reasons behind it. And I like what you. I like who you are. I trust you. And I think that's what came out in this meeting.

[Michael]

I feel the same. And you know, I don't know why I feel like I should say this, but if I said anything that was offensive to you, I apologize. In the past. In the past. And it was for different reasons maybe at that point, but I got to know you now and you know, I learned something. Sometimes you just don't talk unless you know somebody. And so I apologize for that.

[Sammy]

Then let me give you my hand. Cause I do feel the same way.

[Michael]

Thank you.

[Sammy]

I'm gonna forget the past. Like when we were made. The past don't matter no more. I feel that this is the same thing. This is just as important to me as the day I took an oath. I respect you. I love you. It's in the past.

[Michael]

I feel the same.

[Interviewer]

There's a few people that I think that won today. One, I think obviously both of you won because it was some that you had a conversation with each other, but we're not even in it. There was moments in the sit down where it was just the two of you. The audience is hearing what's being said, but it's more, that's personal because it's your life. We don't know the life. You know the life, you know the history. It's very emotional to you. But I think, I think the audience won. I think the world won. I think people who are sitting out right now getting a perspective from you with the experience, the good, bad and the ugly they're seeing here right now. I think people who are in the government who are watching this, you know they're going to be watching, you know, the feds are watching this because they're your friends. They're watching everything single thing you said. And hopefully there are some ideas to help in certain areas where you guys present it, whether it's prison reform, whether it's, you know, how the laws currently working, how they're being held accountable, how it may help other people as well. But I am very glad we were able to pull this up. And I appreciate you guys for making the time to come out here to a location, a destination you knew nothing about, where there's no phone service. And it's probably not a Place where it seemed like the safest place to come. And it's an undisclosed location. The audience doesn't need to know where we are right now. But I respect you guys and appreciate you guys. Appreciate you guys for making it.

[Sammy]

I appreciate it too. And if you. I was asked earlier why were you here? And I said I want the people to understand gosa notion in a whole different light. The real go to ocean. I think that's just what just happened. And I think that the public, my children, my grandchildren who ain't even born, and the public and everybody who deals with me and my social media group and his understand this is true Goza Nostra and this happens if this happens. This is a beautiful part of Gosu Nostra that I totally respect and I love. Like I said, this is what I love. This is true Gozen Ostra and this is good goes in ostro. Not the ugliest shit. I agree with ISS before, maybe we had to be out of our minds a little bit. But we were brought up that way and we were loyal to it to a fault. I was. There's nothing I wouldn't have done if they would have said walk into that police station and shoot everybody. As crazy as it may sound, I probably would have did it knowing I would have never got out. And I do that in a number of times. I cooperated. I don't hide, I don't run. I didn't change my name. I didn't do anything. And so did they. So this is a beautiful part of President Austria and I'm glad that this will come out. This is part of my legacy now, this thing. When it comes out, this will be part the of mind. I'm happy and I'm ready to go. Whatever that next step is. I'm ready.

[Poetry Reader]

Oh beautiful madness forever Waves of grave for purple mountain majesties above the fruited plain. American sweet Americ we can. See to sh. Oh beautiful.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday because right now Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited. To be clear, that's half price, not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price. So that means a half day.

[Sammy]

Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Commercial Narrator]

Of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network's busy taxes and fees extra.

[Insight Software Advertiser]

C mint mobile.com Every minute your finance team spends wrestling with data is a minute lost. Insight Software's AI powered insights instantly move you from complexity to clarity. Automated analysis, real time reporting, strategic recommendations all at your fingertips. Transform how your finance team works and watch your business grow. Stop wasting time, start making smarter decisions. Learn more at Insight Software.