PBD Podcast: Mafia States of America | Episode 10 - "The Last Confession"

Date: November 16, 2025
Host: Patrick Bet-David
Guests: Sammy "The Bull" Gravano & Michael Franzese (former mobsters)

Episode Overview

Episode 10, “The Last Confession,” delivers an intensely personal sit-down between two of America's most notorious ex-mobsters, Sammy “The Bull” Gravano and Michael Franzese. Moderated by Patrick Bet-David, the episode explores personal betrayals, the unraveling of sacred mob oaths, the interplay between faith and organized crime, how each man wants to be remembered, and the search for redemption or understanding in the twilight of their lives. With candid admissions, heated exchanges, and ultimately reconciliation, the conversation offers rare insight into the minds of two men who once lived—and left—the Mafia life.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Revisiting Old Grievances and Reputations

Sammy & Michael discuss how the world sees them and challenge statements made about each other in past interviews.

• Michael’s prior remarks on John Gotti and Sammy:
  • Michael: “On John Gotti's worst day, he was a better guy than Sammy on his worst day.” (03:52)
  • Michael insists this opinion was formed before he truly knew Sammy; much of it came from street rumors and advice from his father.
  • Michael: “What Sammy did on the street was. Was wrong.” (04:16)
• Sammy’s pushback:
  • He accuses Michael of perpetuating "bullshit stories" and making claims about their relationship that aren't true, such as saying they played cards together in MDC (Metropolitan Detention Center), which Sammy firmly asserts never happened.
  • Sammy: “I never knew you on the street and you never met me. You were never playing cards with me. So who has the psychological problem when you think you played cards with me?” (10:17)
• Disagreements over who cooperated and why:
  • Sammy details the strict personal limitations he placed on his cooperation, refusing to testify against his family or crew, providing context for the infamous "35 guys" he supposedly put away.
  • Sammy: “When I cooperated...I said, I will not cooperate against my family. One, two, I will not cooperate against my crew.” (13:36)
  • Michael eventually acknowledges, “I didn't know that, but...I believe everything that you said.” (19:55-19:58)

2. The Breaking of the Mafia Oath

Both reflect on what it means to break 'omertà' (the Mafia code of silence) and what drives a man to turn informant.

• Michael: “The bottom line is, as far as the street is concerned, we broke our oath.” (20:21)
• Sammy: Agrees that both are "out," but differentiates levels of betrayal and personal ethics.
• The moral complexity is highlighted:
  • Michael: “If you're part of a crime family and you're doing the wrong thing all the time, and you find God...That's what normal people do. You and I are not normal.” (21:09)
  • Sammy: “I'm normal as apple pie. I did six and a fucking half years in a whole straight.” (21:25)

3. The Catholic Church, Mob, and Spirituality

Exploring the Mafia’s historical connection to religion, particularly the Catholic Church.

• Sammy: Describes a complicated history—initial closeness, then distance during WWII when the church wouldn’t help Jews escape, which led to tensions. (22:33)
• Church bazaars and gambling:
  • Mob could not openly run gambling at church events, so the Church would handle the money and share proceeds.
  • Sammy: “We always gave it to the church, a priest or whoever who took it, took the money and cut it.” (24:40)
• No broad, illicit “Godfather-style” Vatican-Mafia conspiracy, only local-level entanglements.

4. Prison, Faith, and Transformation

Both men reflect on experiences in prison and what role religion, spirituality, and other cultures played in their survival and personal change.

• Sammy: Describes embracing different religious practices in prison (even joining Native American and Wiccan groups), primarily for benefits like smoking, but learned respect and the universal search for God:
  • Sammy: “I learned that religion is a path to God.... they all believe in God. Same thing, but they have a different path to God and different beliefs.” (27:05)
• Michael: Speaks of his unwavering Christian faith and how it shapes his mission in life:
  • Michael: “I am a Christian...it is my responsibility as a Christian to share what I believe in. And I've been doing that for 25 years.” (34:18)

5. Thoughts on Mortality, Legacy, and Family

Moving reflections on aging, how they want to be remembered, and the meaning found in family.

• Sammy:
  • Hopes for an afterlife, but is at peace either way. Believes honesty is his saving grace:
    • Sammy: “If there is a God, he's gonna say you were cool. He didn't lie about things...” (29:41)
  • Motivated to provide for his family, not out of greed but to restore honor and leave something positive behind.
    • Sammy: “I'm doing a podcast because I want to do the story of my life...so that's what I would like to put out there.” (31:22)
• Michael:
  • Hopes to be remembered by his family as someone who turned his life around, giving rather than taking, and living out his faith:
    • Michael: “I want my kids when I leave this earth to say, you know, I love my dad, and I was proud of him. And he did turn his life around. And...one of the greatest feelings...is when people get something from you, out of you.” (35:59)

6. Reconciliation and Mutual Respect

The episode crescendos with vulnerability, apologies, and mutual forgiveness.

• Apologies exchanged for harsh words and past misjudgments.
  • Michael: “If I said anything that was offensive to you, I apologize. In the past… I got to know you now and… Sometimes you just don't talk unless you know somebody.” (38:59)
  • Sammy: “I'm gonna forget the past… Like when we were made. The past don't matter no more. I feel that this is the same thing. This is just as important to me as the day I took an oath. I respect you. I love you. It's in the past.” (39:29)
• Both affirm that this conversation itself becomes part of their legacy, offering honesty, redemption, and a glimpse of what “true” Cosa Nostra could represent at its best.
  • Sammy: “This is a beautiful part of Gosu Nostra that I totally respect and I love. Like I said, this is what I love. This is true Gozen Ostra and this is good goes in ostro. Not the ugliest shit.” (41:00)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|------------------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:52 | Michael Franzese | “On John Gotti's worst day, he was a better guy than Sammy on his worst day.” | | 10:17 | Sammy Gravano | “I never knew you on the street and you never met me. You were never playing cards with me...” | | 13:36 | Sammy Gravano | “When I cooperated...I said, I will not cooperate against my family. One, two, I will not cooperate against my crew.” | | 20:21 | Michael Franzese | “The bottom line is, as far as the street is concerned, we broke our oath.” | | 21:25 | Sammy Gravano | “I'm normal as apple pie. I did six and a fucking half years in a whole straight.” | | 24:40 | Sammy Gravano | “We always gave it to the church, a priest or whoever who took it, took the money and cut it.” | | 27:05 | Sammy Gravano | “I learned that religion is a path to God.... they all believe in God. Same thing, but they have a different path to God and different beliefs.” | | 29:41 | Sammy Gravano | “If there is a God, he's gonna say you were cool. He didn't lie about things...” | | 31:22 | Sammy Gravano | “I'm doing a podcast because I want to do the story of my life...so that's what I would like to put out there.” | | 35:59 | Michael Franzese | “I want my kids when I leave this earth to say, you know, I love my dad, and I was proud of him. And he did turn his life around.” | | 38:59 | Michael Franzese | “If I said anything that was offensive to you, I apologize. In the past... I got to know you now...” | | 39:29 | Sammy Gravano | “I'm gonna forget the past… Like when we were made. The past don't matter no more. I feel that this is the same thing. This is just as important to me as the day I took an oath. I respect you. I love you. It's in the past.” | | 41:00 | Sammy Gravano | “This is a beautiful part of Gosu Nostra that I totally respect and I love…this is good goes in ostro. Not the ugliest shit.” |

Important Segment Timestamps

• [03:52] – Michael on John Gotti vs. Sammy
• [10:17] – Sammy counters Michael’s “played cards together in prison” claim
• [13:36] – Sammy details the limits to his cooperation and the myth of the “35 guys”
• [20:21] – Both reflect on the core idea of breaking their mob oath
• [22:33] – Discussion on the Catholic Church’s historical relationship to the Mafia
• [27:05] – Sammy discusses finding meaning in different religions in prison
• [29:41] – Sammy shares hopes for the afterlife and facing judgment
• [31:22] – Sammy on legacy, family, and why he tells his story
• [35:59] – Michael’s wishes for his family’s memory of him
• [39:29] – Sammy and Michael's mutual apology and forgiveness
• [41:00] – Sammy reflects on the importance of this conversation as part of his 'true' legacy

Conclusion

This episode is a raw, poignant confession and reconciliation between two ex-mobsters grappling with their legacies. Through stories, arguments, and honest admissions, both Sammy and Michael expose the toll and truths of the Mafia life and the possibilities of personal transformation. Listeners receive not just an inside look at Mafia code, but universal lessons on forgiveness, faith, redemption, and the enduring significance of family and self-honesty.

For anyone seeking to understand not only the history, but the lived reality and lasting emotional aftermath of organized crime, "The Last Confession" is required listening.