Mafia States of America | Episode 2 - "Betrayal and Blood Oaths"

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: PBD Podcast
Episode Title: Mafia States of America | Episode 2 - "Betrayal and Blood Oaths"
Date: November 8, 2025
Guests: Patrick Bet-David (Host), Sammy “The Bull” Gravano, Michael Franzese

In this gripping and contentious episode, Patrick Bet-David navigates a raw, unfiltered conversation with former mafia heavyweights Sammy Gravano and Michael Franzese. The discussion dives deep into the codes and contradictions of the Cosa Nostra, with a focus on betrayal, the meaning and erosion of omertà (the mob’s code of silence), the process of becoming "made," and the role of legacy, favoritism, and the inevitability of treachery within mafia life.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. What Is Cosa Nostra Today?

• Cosa Nostra’s Enduring Allure: Michael and Sammy reflect on the symbolic power of Cosa Nostra, noting how it was the foundation and protector of their lives, but also an institution shaped by change, brutality, and inevitable betrayal.
  • Michael: "Cosa Nostra is what kept me alive." (00:20)
• Heritage and Legacy: Discussion of living up to mob legends (Lucky Luciano, Sonny Franzese), and what it meant to “earn” membership is nuanced by family ties and favoritism.

2. Betrayal as Brotherhood’s Shadow

• The Mafia Isn't Unique: Sammy draws parallels between the ruthlessness of the mob, the police, politicians, and broader American society:
  • Sammy: "Cops have ugly things. Politicians have ugly things. We do fucking wars... So don't let's not get it. The Mafia is ugly and it did ugly things. But so did the rest of the fucking party. America got chance me." (00:51)
• Betrayal Is Inevitable: Both agree that betrayal is a recurrent, even structural, element of mafia life.
  • Sammy: "It happens all the time." (05:55)
  • Michael: "And guys that you didn't expect to betray betrayed you." (06:31)

3. On Becoming “Made” – Merit, Nepotism, and the Closed Books

• Favoritism vs. Earning It: Heated debate erupts over whether Michael and other mob sons advanced solely on connections, not deeds.
  • Sammy: "If he never did anything, he's actually taken somebody's slot, somebody who deserved that position." (09:14)
• Merit and Process: Sammy details the exhaustive vetting process and laments how mafia “sons” leapfrogged loyal associates.
  • Sammy: "We don't just make people, there's a process ... It takes years to develop who they're going to make." (09:51)

The Closed Books Era

• Sammy and Michael recall the era when new members weren’t initiated for 20 years, creating pent-up demand and deep resents about who deserved the first new slots.
  • Sammy: "The books in the mafia were closed from 1955 to approximately 1975... They decided the Commission to make 10 guys in each family. Let's see how it goes." (17:57)
  • Michael: "For two and a half years prior to that, I was on call every day to do whatever work they asked me to do..." (19:25)

4. The Question of Killing and Omertà

• Did Michael “Do the Work”? Patrick pushes Michael on whether he committed murder as part of his path to being made. Michael refuses to self-incriminate or confirm details:
  • Michael: "If I did or I did not, I wouldn't be talking about it no matter what. So. But I will tell you this. When I took that oath, I earned it... and now I'm gonna leave it at that." (10:51)
  • Sammy: "Keeping your mouth shut is a good quality. John should have had that." (11:51)
• The Purpose of Omertà: The conflict between the oath’s ideal (absolute silence), personal survival, and betrayal is drawn out in personal stories and direct challenges.
  • Sammy: "The word omerta... meant open your mouth when you were in a dentist's office, don't talk... If me and you have an agreement not to betray one another... that's a two way thing." (36:01)
  • Michael: "When you take that oath... I don't care who betrayed me. I don't care who ratted on me... I took an oath, and I couldn't live with myself if I betrayed that oath." (39:22)

5. Cooperation, Ratting, and Respect

• Sammy Calls Michael “A Rat”: The debate reaches a breaking point as Sammy bluntly accuses Michael of betraying omertà by cooperating with authorities, regardless of him not testifying or directly sending anyone to prison.
  • Sammy: "He ratted. He cooperated... You're a rat. Talk about respect." (47:40)
• Michael Sticks to His Principles: Michael acknowledges breaking the oath but maintains the distinction that he didn’t “put anybody in prison.”
  • Michael: "I violated my oath. I talk about the life. I left the life. So I betrayed my oath." (41:32)
• Tempers Flare: The tension becomes physical:
  • Sammy: "What am I gonna do? I'll break your face, that's what the fuck I'll do." (47:57)
  • Michael: "Let me tell you right, you're not." (48:00)
  • Sammy: "This was years ago, you'd be fucking dead." (48:01)
  • The argument abruptly diffuses with both men half-singing “America the Beautiful,” a surreal, abrupt truce.

6. Brotherhood, Family, and What Remains Good

• Genuine Affection and Protection: Despite everything, both acknowledge the best of Cosa Nostra was unshakeable loyalty to loved ones.
  • Sammy: "If somebody ever hurt [your wife], I'm out of the life. They would have a fucking problem with me. Because I feel... every fiber of my body feels it. And Cosa Nostra means that your wife is my sister-in-law. If you're my brother, yes. Your children are my nieces and nephews." (28:33)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Sammy on betrayal: "You're going to bunk into [greed, envy, jealousy]. They're worse than a rapist... Get away, because they will betray you. It's stuck in them." (05:59)
• Michael on early induction: "I'll tell you why. Because for two and a half years prior to that, I was on call every day to do whatever work they asked me to do..." (19:25)
• On legacy:
  • Michael: "My father was accused of 40 murders by the FBI. They never named one guy that he murdered. ...My father never talked to me about one of those alleged 40 murders." (23:39)
• On “the code”:
  • Sammy: "The word omerta... meant open your mouth when you were in a dentist's office, don't talk." (36:01)
• The confrontation:
  • Sammy: "He ratted. He cooperated. ...You're a rat. Talk about respect." (47:40)
  • Michael: "Let me tell you right, you're not." (48:00)
  • Sammy: "This was years ago, you'd be fucking dead." (48:01)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• Defining Cosa Nostra: 00:15 – 04:03
• Power, Betrayal, and Brotherhood: 04:24 – 08:44
• Did Michael “Do the Work”?: 08:54 – 13:19
• Becoming Made, Closed Books Discussion: 16:01 – 22:28
• Omertà and the Ethics of Breaking the Oath: 35:59 – 46:32
• Showdown: Cooperation and Rat Label: 47:00 – 48:10
• Brotherhood Transcending the Life: 28:33
• Singing “America the Beautiful” (abrupt truce): 48:32 – 49:09

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Conclusion

This episode lays bare the contradictions, resentments, honor codes, and emotional scars of former mobsters. It’s a rare, unscripted confrontation between men whose lives once depended on trust, omertà, and an unyielding code—showing how ambiguous, personal, and sometimes irrational those codes become with age and experience.

For listeners, the episode delivers searing insight into why the Mafia continues to fascinate—a human drama of loyalty, ambition, betrayal, and the illusion of honor.

Transcript

[Michael]

Previously on Mafia States of America.

[Patrick]

What is Cosa Nostra to you? And does it still have the same meaning today as it did back in the 80s?

[Sammy]

Cosa Nostra is what kept me alive.

[Michael]

Let me straighten something out. I don't know any father, but Sonny Francis.

[Sammy]

I made probably just as much money for the family as Michael did.

[Michael]

When that saint was burnt in my hand, I already proved myself. Otherwise that wouldn't have happened. How I proved myself, Sammy?

[Sammy]

How did you kill someone? You didn't live a rough life.

[Patrick]

Your peak. You were saying you were making how much money per year?

[Michael]

We bringing in five, eight million dollars a week.

[Sammy]

Cops have ugly things. Politicians have ugly things. We do fucking wars. And we bomb countries and kill men, women and children. So don't let's not get it. The Mafia is ugly and it did ugly things. But so did the rest of the fucking party. America got chance me.

[Michael]

From sea to sh. What is it about the Mafia that people find so fascinating? It's about the power. About the ability to do anything you.

[Sammy]

Want and no one could touch you. But the more powerful they get, sooner.

[Michael]

Or later someone is going to betray you. And in the end, it's always a friend who does the deed.

[Patrick]

You go into the military, they sell you the dream. What's the dream? The dream is women like men in uniform. You're going to walk in the mall, women are going to come up to you. You're going to go party. You're going to have a great time, travel, see the world. That's how they sold the dream in the NBA.

[Michael]

When you get into the NBA, you.

[Patrick]

You're gonna have a big house, the big cars, the big lifestyle, the nice clothes, the nice watch, the nice. This the dream. You go into Hollywood, you're gonna be a star. Your picture's gonna be everywhere. What's the Mafia? What's the La Cosa nosa?

[Sammy]

I don't know. The boss or the boss of sit down at a ceremony. Who would tell you that?

[Patrick]

Well, what is the dream? What's the dream? What's the vision?

[Sammy]

The dream is power. You've worked for it. The secret society, these were idols to you when you go back. Like I said, the Lucky Lucianos, all of these people, they're part of your heritage. They're part of your life. His father was an idol. Not only to him as a son, but to a lot of people. So becoming, becoming made is becoming. Sonny Franchise.

[Michael]

Sammy, I gotta tell you something. And I love my dad, but all he ever talked to me about was making money. That was it.

[Sammy]

Of course. Everybody needs money. Listen, the guy was broke. He was in prison. He was doing tough time. Lawyers were chewing him up. Of course he's going to talk to you about money.

[Michael]

I'm saying the lifestyle is built on money and power. Just going back when I took that oath, I thought it was the greatest thing in the world. I mean, that night, I was on a high. I was exhilarated. You know, to me, it was everything. Because we felt it was an honorable life, was a brotherhood, Patrick. Nothing stronger than a group of guys in a brotherhood having each other's backs.

[Sammy]

Accepting you, accepting you. And that's why he's high as a kind. He's accepting by people. Exactly. Some of them are dirty or ugly, but most of them are not.

[Michael]

Yeah. Michael, wherever you go in the world, you'll have somebody to have your back. You don't have to worry about anything. Don't ever worry about your mother, your sister, your wife, your daughter. Nobody's ever going to violate that. I mean, when you hear those words, it's powerful. The problem is, like anything else, it's not the way it is all the time.

[Sammy]

Right.

[Michael]

It's just not. And look, I'll say this about my dad. My dad and I had a lot of talks privately. A lot of things were done with him that I was upset about. My dad was deep. If you had to put him. There's nobody. There's nobody better him as far as a standup guy in that life. Nobody, you know? But there was things that we said privately. And he said, mike, this life is. He would tell you that? Oh, absolutely. He said, it ain't the way they're gonna tell you it is. There was times when my dad was a captain and they broke him.

[Sammy]

And I bet he broke him. And I bet he would tell you it's not what used to be exactly, you know? Okay, so at one point, he loved the life. And it changed. What? Same thing. Because you got to know the same thing with me. I love the life. I still like it.

[Michael]

But you got to know the life.

[Sammy]

Sam and John, the betrayal. I said the same thing as your father. This life and him. And left.

[Michael]

Because betrayal happens all the time.

[Sammy]

And I'm happy you now with Patrick and to sit down than I am with the life I trust.

[Michael]

Betrayal happens all the time.

[Patrick]

Is that inevitable?

[Michael]

It happens all the time.

[Patrick]

Is it inevitable change?

[Sammy]

Yes.

[Michael]

Absolutely.

[Patrick]

Betrayal?

[Michael]

Yes.

[Patrick]

It's inevitable.

[Sammy]

Yeah. You know why? Greed, envy, jealousy. That's a way of life. Not everybody has it, but I don't care who you are, you're going to bunk into it. And my suggestion as a made guy, when you bunk into somebody who has those qualities, greed, envy, and jealousy. Get the fuck. They're worse than a rapist. All right, Get. Get away from those people. Don't do business with them. Don't do nothing. Get away, because they will betray you. It's stuck in them.

[Michael]

And guys that you didn't expect to betray betrayed you.

[Patrick]

Can those guys change?

[Sammy]

No. They're like. They're almost like a child monster. It's in them. It's part of their life. Carmen La Mendoza. When I was getting young, he took. He told me that. Sammy, I. I think you're a great kid. You're growing up the right way. You've got a lot of scruples and laws. If this. You ever meet people like this? Get away from them. They're the worst things that you could have.

[Michael]

And he was.

[Sammy]

You could trust a killer. You could trust anybody. He's got some honor, he's got some this, he's got some that. But these people, there's no one.

[Patrick]

How'd you process it? The first time he told you that, did you believe it, or were you like. No, I think people could change.

[Sammy]

No, no, at first, but he was an old guy with a lot of wisdom. I took his word as meant something. It was pretty important.

[Michael]

And I will tell you this. Joey Brad Cotta, he's passed away. Now I get told about it was with my dad for 44 years. Friends, like, had friends like you wouldn't believe. Right. I knew him as Uncle Joey from the time I'm born. He betrayed my dad. I don't know if you know Joe. 44 years. 44 years. When my dad went to prison, My cousin Tudy, another maid guy, our blood, he betrayed my father. He almost got me killed because he brought some BS story about my mother having an affair with somebody. That it was the first time that I was ever gonna kill somebody as a result of it. And I said, dad, what the heck is going on here? Joe Colombo, who I know you fought for, don't even want to get you out of prison. What's going on? He wouldn't even talk to me about having my father got out of prison. His underboss at the time, stand up, guy, all the way. So I'm witnessing these things, and I still want to be involved in the life to help my dad. But look, you got to be honest about it, and I see what you're saying. Yeah, the government is corrupt. You want to know something? I hate the government more than I hate that life.

[Sammy]

Because.

[Michael]

Because the government takes an oath to.

[Sammy]

Help people.

[Michael]

To work on behalf of people. And they're greedy and envious and they got their own agenda and they don't.

[Sammy]

Care about the people and they go after innocent people.

[Michael]

I agree.

[Sammy]

Innocent, hard working people. We don't.

[Michael]

I agree.

[Patrick]

So, Sammy, earlier you were kind of pushing Michael a little bit on the topic up. Yeah. But did you actually do the work necessary to be a made man? You kept pushing him on it. Pushing him on it, pushing him on it. Let's just say it never happened. What's wrong if he never did that and if he never killed someone, isn't that an honorable thing if he didn't?

[Sammy]

The books in the mafia were closed from 1955 to approximately 1975. Okay. There's a lot of guys who did work, gave beatings, did all kinds of things for the mafia and they waited their turn to become a made member in the Mafia. So if he never did anything, he's actually taken somebody's slot, somebody who deserved that position. It's not his fault. I'm not saying it's his fault, but that's why I took a little bit of that position, that there's nothing wrong with it. His father was a heavyweight and he proposed him and he has that clout, that right to do that. But I felt when a guy all his life. We don't just make people, there's a process. They know who your mother is, your father is, your brother is, your sister is. They examine what you did. How were you in school when you got arrested? How did you react? What did you do when you were asked to do something? Did you do it? Do it? You do it efficiently? Are you honorable? Are you loyal to your friends? They take all of these qualities and it takes years to develop who they're going to make. They don't just make guys that easy, Michael.

[Patrick]

So maybe I'm going to ask the police question to you that Sammy's been hinting at. Did you ever kill someone as a made man?

[Michael]

Well, Patrick, let me tell you this. I learned a lot of things from my father. And one of the things he taught me early on that was very helpful to me, he said, michael, if you and I committed a crime, no matter what it was, he said, one minute after we commit that crime, if you ask me about it, I. I'm gonna say, what are you talking about? I don't know what you're talking about. Taught me that as A result, I never got caught on a tape. I never. I always knew when to keep my mouth shut. In all due respect to Sammy, he doesn't know what I did or I didn't do. That's number one. Number two, I don't have immunity for the things that I did in my life. None. I don't have any immunity. If I did or I did not, I wouldn't be talking about it no matter what. So. But I will tell you this. When I took that oath, I earned it. And throughout my years in that life, when I was told to do something, I did it. And now I'm gonna leave it at that.

[Sammy]

I don't expect you to say anything that would harm you or put you in prison. But one time you said that certain people talked about, you said that. So keeping your mouth shut is a good quality. John should have had that quality to keep his mouth shut. He didn't. I don't knock you for that. But I answer you that. That's why some of these people may be complaining or saying something about you because maybe they feel you have it. Now. They're not cops, they're street people. They have vast knowledge of who did what. I don't have those same people knocking me. I told the truth, whatever it is. However the cards fall. And if you did, more power to you. I'm not the guy who's knocking you. And I think you know that.

[Michael]

I do.

[Sammy]

But what I say is that if these people who are supposed to know when it comes to that, and if they didn't know, then you got in under false pretenses, you did it. I'm gonna give you that. I'm not gonna call you a liar. But then they didn't do their homework because they put you in before somebody else. That's not an answer to an administration, Sammy.

[Michael]

You're assuming that it never happened. And what I'm saying.

[Sammy]

I'm not assuming anything. I'm assuming that you just say.

[Michael]

Wait a minute, you just said they put me in under false pretenses. How do you know that? As a matter.

[Sammy]

No, no.

[Michael]

Let me tell you something. If you didn't talk about what you did, I'd never know it. We didn't go around bragging to people before circumstances change in your life, hey, I did this, I did that, I killed this guy. I never heard that on the street.

[Sammy]

Street.

[Michael]

Let me finish. I always heard you were a tough guy, a stand up guy, but I never heard about specifically what you did because I don't think you talked about it. And other people shouldn't have been talking about it then, too. The same way whatever I did, I'm not talking about it. And if anybody else is talking about it, they shouldn't be.

[Sammy]

I get that. I get that. And you're right. I didn't talk about my crimes with every Tom, Dick and Harry. But a boss, an administration. I was the underboss. A boss, an underboss, and a Kunzeh has to know these things. According to the Gosa Nostra rules, they must know. That's why we pass a name around. When you get made, your name went to every four, the five families.

[Michael]

That's right.

[Sammy]

Michael Franchise is going to be made the boss. The underboss of. Give it to the Cabor Jeans, Cabo de Jeans. Give it to some of the crew members who are made. So that anybody who knows anything about you could put in. This is what he did. We don't want him to be made. That's right. Or this is what he is. Sammy was a street guy. I know everything he did. I don't have no proof of what he did, but I know what he is. I know when he got arrested. I know how he conducted himself many, many times. So it's not every time Dick and Harry and I agree with you. If we kill somebody and somebody else was supposed to get rid of the body, I don't even ask. Is it gone? Yeah. I don't tell. I don't ask him. Where did you bury it? That's why they can't find Jimmy Hoffa and so many people. Of course, we're tight mounted when it comes to that. But there is people who know that he's dead. There is people who know who killed him and where they buried him. That's a necessity. And here's how. It's a necessity that FBI agent Donnie Brasco. They didn't ask those questions. And what happened? It destroyed half of the Bonanno family. People went to prison because we did not know who the fuck he was, where he came from, what he did. So it makes it a necessity to know.

[Michael]

And I agree with everything you said.

[Sammy]

Okay, good. And if you don't say you did anything and you want to keep that secret, that's okay with me. Me, even as yonder boss. But my decision would be no. If you want Michael Frenchie's made, I don't know anything negative about him. Let's put him on the side until his turn comes.

[Michael]

That's if you had no idea what I did or what I didn't do.

[Sammy]

Right. Okay. Right. What I'm saying, that's my job to know.

[Michael]

Let me just clarify. So you're saying that if my name was passed around to all five families, which it was, we know that. And I got made, then they must have made a decision to make me for the right reasons.

[Sammy]

The decision, in my opinion and what I heard, was because your father, Sonny Franchise, who was the underboss, who was wrongly convicted on something, wanted to do him a favor so you could take care of your father's businesses or business transactions or money on the street. Not just an associate, but a main member, which would give you the power that an associate don't have. So they did that. They did that.

[Michael]

Did they do the same for Junior's son and Columbo's son?

[Sammy]

Absolutely.

[Michael]

And all the sons that I know. So that in your opinion or what you're saying none of us earned the right to be made, we just were, correct.

[Sammy]

The books were closed for 20 years.

[Michael]

Correct. I was. I was proposed with guys who were waiting 20, 25 years. That's true.

[Sammy]

So was I.

[Michael]

Yes.

[Sammy]

But I didn't get in 75. Frankie DeCicco did. Some other guys. I didn't get made. Well, let me. Let me tell you what happened. The books were closed until 75. So tons of guys were waiting. They decided to Commission to make 10 guys in each family. Let's see how it goes. So they opened up and they made 10 guys in each family. Kept that pretty quiet. I was super close with Frank and Chico. I didn't know right away he even got made. What happened is it went pretty good in 1976. They said, no problems. It went pretty good. So let's open it again and do it every year. I was made in 1976. Not on the first batch, on the second batch. So 10, 20, 25 people went in before me. Had a pretty heavy record. I was young. I was only 31. Guys were saying, wow, Sammy, how old are you? 31. You went in front of a hell of a lot of guys. I said, well, I don't make that decision. And that's what it is. You were 24. That's right. You said, yeah, 75 in 75. You were 24 years old and you went in on the first bench.

[Michael]

I did.

[Sammy]

So my point was that you went in and took someone's spot who was waiting years.

[Michael]

No, that's not true. I'll tell you why. Because for two and a half years prior to that, I was on call every day to do whatever work they asked me to do as was. Let me finish. As was Persico's son, Mike Vombatta, as was Anthony Colombo and a lot of guys who were sons of guys that were made already. But we had to do what we were told to do. They didn't just go say, hey, because.

[Sammy]

Of your father Colombo and what they call my parson goes, son do.

[Michael]

I'm gonna answer you the same.

[Sammy]

I'm tell you what John Gotti's son did. I was at a commission meeting. Well, I'll tell you when it is. I was at a commission meeting. Me and John Gin Gigante and Benny Ames, Vicar Amuso and gas money. And John, I was across the table like I am with you. Looked at me and said to Chin, did you hear about my son? Chin looked up, said, I'm sorry to hear that. That goes in Austria. Coming out of Chin, who the fuck is your son should get made over other people who deserve it. Now, you could do what you want later on. He didn't come out with all my words, but that's what it meant. John looked at me and I shrugged my shoulders as if Chin said what he wanted to say. He had the walls. He was goes in Austria. He had the brains to say it. This is people lingos in Austria. He told another boss John was the boss. Told him not a boss. Joe Colombo made two of his sons, Anthony and Joseph, when he was dead. What the fuck happened to Anthony Colombo? You were in the Colombo family and Joseph Colombo. They were disappeared. Literally. Why? Because they didn't even fucking belong. They were nothing, nobody.

[Michael]

You know what? I'm not gonna agree or disagree with that. My own opinions of the Colombos, I happen to like them, but I'll leave it at what you said said. But there was a lot of guys who were waiting 20 years that didn't deserve to be in that life as far as I was concerned.

[Sammy]

But that's before of your concern. But that wasn't your concern. You're not a boss and I'm the boss.

[Michael]

But we have an opinion. And my point is this. You mentioned Chin Junior Persico was as tough a guy as Cousin Austria as anybody in his life ever was.

[Sammy]

Yeah, as far as I'm concerned.

[Michael]

He made me. You're not sliding in on the junior.

[Sammy]

I didn't say sliding in. That's what I'm saying.

[Michael]

It's not a favor that he did.

[Sammy]

A favor to your father.

[Michael]

He did.

[Sammy]

That doesn't mean that I have to disagree with you.

[Michael]

Now, I want to tell you this And I didn't want to say this, but I'm going to say it. I'm getting released from prison in 1994. I just got out of the hall. I'm getting released. I got three months to go. The warden at Lompoc calls me over. He says, francis is in the York Daily News. Reporter on the phone.

[Sammy]

He wants to talk to you.

[Michael]

So I want to talk to him. Give me his number. I'll call him back. I call him back, he says, sally Machoto is one of our guys. He says, as turned informant, he's implicated you in five murders. You, Bombardo, Larry Caroza. And he mentioned four other guys. He said, I'm writing a story. What are you going to do about it? I said, he's a liar. I don't know what he's talking about. And that was it. I'm going to tell you this. For the three months, I didn't sleep. I didn't sleep. I said, I'm going to walk out of here. And somebody's on this BS charge. Because it wasn't true. Is accusing me of five murders. I'm going to have a headache. I didn't sleep. As it turns out. Later on, Machote got himself in trouble. They threw him out of the Witness Protection program. But he implicated me in five murders. He's a liar as far as I'm concerned. What would I say? Of course he's lying. But my point to Sammy is. I didn't know what you did on the street. Before you told us what you did. And you didn't know what I did. I hope you didn't. Because if you did, then something's wrong with Cosa Nostra. We're not supposed to know what each other did. When it comes to something like that, that's it. That's what my father told me. That's what I'll stand by. My father was accused of 40 murders by the FBI. 40 murders. They never named one guy that he murdered. Except the guy he went to trial for. That he was acquitted on. And my father never talked to me about one of those alleged 40 murders. My father, later on, when he started, he was 100 years old. Said on tape, I killed a lot of guys. Not one or two, but a lot of guys.

[Sammy]

I don't know how impressive that is. It's not impressive.

[Michael]

I'm trying to make a point.

[Sammy]

I'm saying that's some sort of. I'm trying to make a point. My son don't know who I killed. But that's when I went home and told my daughter or my son.

[Michael]

That's my point.

[Sammy]

So I don't know what that point is.

[Michael]

The point is that until. Until it became public what you did, nobody knew what you did. The same way nobody knows, I hope, what I did, and that's it. And so the debate.

[Sammy]

I don't know if nobody knew.

[Patrick]

Let me ask this. Maybe here's a question for some of us who are not in the world. So on your end, you're saying, you're saying his father did him a favor to get him in there because it was his son. Right. He's saying he earned the right to be in. Right. The one question that this brings up to me is this seems to be a sensitive topic here on both ends. One, a lot of people waited to get in and they were waiting to get the spot because it was closed for 20 years. What is the big deal about being a made man if people are waiting? Like if there's a waiting list, I get out of the army, I'm trying to be a firefighter. California had a freeze for firefighters. In la, I couldn't wait for five years, but I wanted to be a firefighter. Why do people want to be made men? Why is it such a big deal to be.

[Michael]

I think it's very important. That's a good question. Why don't I answer something too? We're basing the whole reason to get into causing or because you killed somebody.

[Sammy]

No, I'm not. No.

[Michael]

But I'm saying that's the qualifi. That's the only qualification. There's guys that.

[Sammy]

I said that.

[Michael]

No, but there's guys that kill somebody that didn't belong in that life to begin with. And it was proven itself out. How many guys maybe did the work on the street, didn't belong in that life?

[Sammy]

But that's not the issue. You got made on the first batch at 24 years old, along with. You never done anything?

[Michael]

No, I never said that.

[Sammy]

No.

[Michael]

What I said is I earned the right to be a part of that life.

[Patrick]

Is this kind of like somebody coming out of high school and going into the NBA. Is that kind of how you're looking at it where somebody should have gone to college? But in this example, just to, just to, in this example, just so you.

[Michael]

Know, LeBron James came out of high school, went into the NBA, and he, he's one of the greatest players of all time.

[Patrick]

So what I'm saying is, if he.

[Sammy]

Did come out, but he's got credentials to do that, what he was, he was the greatest fucking basketball player ever. But nobody knew what you did. I'm talking about your own administration. You're not the greatest basketball player ever. You're not the best gangster ever.

[Michael]

Well, who is, Sammy?

[Sammy]

Who is?

[Michael]

Yeah. Who is? Who is? And what qualified them to be?

[Sammy]

I would say there's a lot of guys who are really good, goes in Austria. Guys. My father. Your father might be the first one to say yes. Look what he did. I'm never going to take Kudas away. This guy did 50 fucking years on. On a. On a plan. He goes in, he comes out. He goes in, he comes out. He never cooperated, never did anything. And he was in on a bad charge. Tough, tough guy. Deserves it. My guy, Toddo, I think, in my opinion, I loved him. He was a good guy. There's a lot of guys around the Persicos. I bunked with them, good guys. And they all did the same shit your father did. Stood up, went the whole nine yards. That's happened the whole history of Gosa Nostra. Then it fell apart years later. Valachi started that. And what was done to Valachi was. Was stupid and caused these things to happen. There's a lot of stories. I know a lot of guys who cooperate. Everybody and his mother who cooperated is in touch with me in one way or another.

[Michael]

And those are the guys. And can I tell you something? Those are the guys that are spreading all this garbage around me. I don't even know any one of them. I don't know one of them. Not one of them was around when I was around. And the same guys that are talking, I don't know, they're not made guys, number one. Number two, I don't even know who they are. They weren't around it. They weren't part of my crew, part of my family. Family. They're. They're YouTube people now. They want to get. They want to talk.

[Sammy]

Well, you know my opinion on that already. Without you even saying anything. You already know that I got in touch with that, a lot of those guys and told them, shut your mouth.

[Michael]

I mean, don't get me wrong, they have a right to say whatever they want, whether they're saying it based upon.

[Sammy]

Anything other than their own reason. They don't have the right to say whatever they want, you know, they don't have the right to stand there and lie against people.

[Michael]

Well, that's what they're doing.

[Sammy]

Well, they don't have that right. Well, that's what I back you any way you want. Whatever you want to do. With them, I'm with you.

[Michael]

You did 100%.

[Sammy]

And I'll do it further again. Another example. We were talking later about the feelings towards Kozanosha. I cooperate. I'm added to life. Me and you are just starting to get a little.

[Michael]

You believe we're still Khosanoshra?

[Sammy]

Here's how Gosa Nostra I am. God forbid you die to tomorrow morning. I don't know your wife. I just met her maybe once. If somebody ever hurt her, I'm out of the life. They would have a fucking problem with me. Because I feel. I'm. Every fiber of my body feels it. And Rosa Nostra means that your wife is my sister in law. If you're my brother, yes. Your children are my nieces and nephews. I could be in a joint. I see your daughter, God forbid. In a sense, joint. And somebody's giving that static. I will stick my 2 cents right in it. That goes in Austria.

[Michael]

That's the good part of cousin.

[Sammy]

Austria. Well, that's. That's the good part. And that's the part that's still stuck in me. There's a lot of good parts that are stuck in me now. Do I want to kill anybody? No, that's behind me. It's ugly. It's up. I agree with you. There's a lot of up things they did. Kill. Killing different people. And Carmine, I was with him. I did a bunch of videos on him already. Killing women and people and people's kids. That wasn't necessary. It happens. We talked about Roy the Mayo. It happens. We get rid of them. That's why he was called the snake. Now I don't. I was with him. I liked him. When I was with him, it was tough. You know, everything I liked at that point in my life. I look back at him now, not too happy with him. But there was a lot. A lot of good people in the life and abided by the life. So Toddle would tell me, listen, you're a tough guy, Sam, and you're capable of this. But let me tell you something. Violence. We could always use violence. It's only as a last resort.

[Michael]

That's right.

[Sammy]

Use your negotiating powers in your fucking head and common sense not to hurt people.

[Michael]

That's how. That was my approach to that life.

[Sammy]

Good, good. I'm not knocking you in any way. But all I'm saying is when. And there's no shame in anything. If you're a good man and your father wanted or a boss made people. What's the perfect example, John? With his son. Chin gave him a right answer. We weren't sure what happened. What is he doing now? He cooperated. He says he didn't. But you know and I know he cooperated on a qt. Nobody knew about it, and it didn't come out. Sometimes it comes out, sometimes it don't. Sometimes they seal it. But we have all those notes and stuff. We know he cooperated. Now he writes in a men's health journal that he's a crime fighter. Are you a crime fighter?

[Michael]

Me?

[Sammy]

Yeah. No. Not me either. I don't want to put nobody in prison. I don't give a fuck who commits crimes. That's their business. That's the cop's business. It's not my job. It's not your job. I agree with you 1000%, but that's what he said. His father must be doing flips in his grave. But these things happen. So.

[Michael]

They happen a lot.

[Sammy]

Yeah, it does happen. That's why I wanted to point it out. It happens more. And I'm not saying you didn't deserve to get made. I said that I think you got made too early. If you didn't have the history in the background. And it wasn't a long thing. Because even if you killed all fucking five of them, these guys, over 20 years, kill more than five, and they got a history. So I'm just saying that in the first 10, I'm saying that if you were in the second or third match, you probably would never say.

[Michael]

Let me ask you a question. Why do you think they put us in the first batch? We were the first guys to get made. I know. We were told that.

[Sammy]

Yeah. In 75, the first batch was made. One batch.

[Michael]

Yeah, but remember, it was two and a half years. My dad proposed me Two and a half years. Almost three years early than that. Okay, three years.

[Sammy]

Maybe that's part of it.

[Michael]

Yeah, I mean, maybe that's part of it.

[Sammy]

And.

[Michael]

And. And it wasn't. The way I look at it, it wasn't our decision to close the books. They did it for a reason. So if these guys before us was so deserving, then they would have maybe.

[Sammy]

Been made before us, but it was closed for 20 years. So some guys.

[Michael]

No, but I'm saying even when they opened the books, and those guys would have went first and they said, these guys deserve it more.

[Sammy]

They should have. Well, again, you can't say that the whole. For 20 years that nobody deserved it more.

[Michael]

No, no, but. No, I didn't say that. But what I'm saying is, you're basing. It's like Kozanoska's based upon who we killed.

[Sammy]

That's not just who he killed. It's not just killing.

[Michael]

Well, how much work we did.

[Sammy]

It's everything he's done. What he's done in 20 years. It's almost. You get a kid who's 20 years old now, he deserves to get made. He's 40. He didn't get made. So he sat there for 20 years. God knows how many things. I didn't kill every body on his mother. I mean, there was guys that Junior sent me, and I think you know the story, and I think you know about it. Somebody was banging somebody and he said, sammy, I want you to go and give this guy a beating. Bring his ear back. I said, oh, my God. To myself. I didn't say it to him. I said, okay. But when we left, I talked with Shorty. For real. This guy wants a zero. You know, I'm a shooter. I'm not a ghoul. I'm gonna take this guy's ear off and all this. But Dave was guys who did not only killings. I didn't take the guy's ear off. And it's a whole story. I did a video about it, but they did a lot of things. They went through a lot of things. So some guys went to prison and stood up for 10 years. So they didn't. I'm not just talking about murder. They may have gotten caught. They could have ratted everybody out. They stood in there for 10 years, did their time, came out, plus did murders, plus did other things. I think that guy is pretty qualified. I was an underboss, as you know. If I was sitting on your thing and your father asked for it, I think he would. To me, I would say, sonny deserves this favor, bro. This guy's a man's man. Stolen his time. I think we owe him that. I wouldn't have personally said the first batch. I would have said the second or third. But if that's what he wants and the kid's okay with him. We don't know that. We pass his name around, nothing bad. Let's make him. And another thing I'll add to that. You can't just say something is bad. If I propose you to become a friend of ours and somebody says, well, Michael wasn't a tough guy at school. I don't give a fuck whether you like him. I don't give a fuck what you think about how he conducts himself or whatever, how he dresses, whatever. If you ain't got Something serious. You're offending me. I'm proposing. Don't you fucking dare say something, something negative. Because when you get made again, I'll tell these people whatever you did in the past is dead. I'm not interested in it. We're not interested in it. You're born that day. And that's what I'm going to take forward.

[Patrick]

The word omerta, you know, to the average person. Nowadays Drake has a song called Omerta. We see omerta on different songs. We see omerta being used in books, you know, people writing about it. It's got many different meanings. But what did omerta mean to you?

[Sammy]

It meant open your mouth when you were in a dentist's office, don't talk. But the thing is a joke when it's a double edged sword. If me and you have an agreement not to betray one another, not to talk about anything, to hurt one another in any way, shape or form, that's a two way thing. It's not a one way thing. We have disagreement, hardship, we trust each other. We did all kinds of things together, we're cool. But tomorrow you turn on me and do something fucking weird. What's a murder? It's bullshit. You broke it already. So what do you want me to do? Stay with it? So I'll go to prison for the rest of my life? To prove I'm what, tough? Or how stupid the fuck I am? When you broke it and you want me to go to prison and you're gonna stay home or. Whatever he did, he left the life because whatever with the Russians and the whole thing. They maybe wanted to kill him at one point. So he's going to be so tough and so smart, so good to Amertha. He's going to sit there like a statue until we blow his head off, take his money, his wife and kids could go see where the they gotta go. Well, that's a brilliant move on his part. Oh, what a wonderful man he is now. He had the balls to say, here you and Humurto and whoever, whatever horse you're riding on and leave. That's a ballsy move. That's not a coward's move. I was with a guy, a black guy, fat cat, Nicholas. The guy killed his parole officer. Got a life sentence. Stood up. I was with him in prison. Tough, tough bastard. Good guy too. His wife is being mistreated. His mother was a drug dealer too. They're robbing her for money. Somebody's banging his wife. Good support team, right? Everything's going Good. Then they get to him, this Pappy Mason and them his old crew, and tell him there's a guy who cooperated. And he's in a building. There's a squad car outside. There's two police officers. One guy goes and get coffee. When he goes and get coffee, we can shoot this guy. He's a young guy. And then we could go in and kill the informant, Fat Cat Nick, who says, absolutely not. Don't do it. No, they do it behind his back. The cop that they killed, his brother, is an FBI agent. The guy who they wanted to kill in the house hears the shots, he jumps out the window. He's gone. They miss him. Fat Cat Nickel, that's his crew. They indict him again. This now on a capital case, killing a police officer. He's facing the death penalty. And Fat Cat turns around and says, fuck this, and cooperates. Guys will say he's a rat. Is that a rat? I don't know about that.

[Patrick]

What do you think about Omerta?

[Michael]

I'll tell you what omerta is. And again, I learned it from my dad. When you take that oath, this is what my father's opinion was. Michael. I don't care who betrayed me. I don't care who ratted on me. I don't care how bad the life was. I took an oath, and I couldn't live with myself if I betrayed that oath. I don't care what anybody else did. That's it. And I'll live this way until I die. I'm gonna die that way with my boots on. He didn't care who wronged him, who did this, who broke him as captain. I made that oath. And I'm not going to betray my oath. That's what Omertha is. You took the blood oath. You agreed to keep your mouth shut. You knew you weren't entering fantasy land. It was a criminal life. We knew what we were getting involved in. And we have to shut our mouth. That's the speech he gave me. And the reason he gave me that speech, because after I had walked away, we didn't speak for 10 years. Who was mad at me, who was going to kill me? My dad went along with the contract. I heard everything from the government. He finally said for me when he realized I wasn't hurting anybody because everybody was saying I was putting everybody in jail. And I go see him. We were in the kitchen of our house. Why did you do what you did? I said, let me ask you a question, Dad. I said, you're on your Third parole violation. We're sitting in this house. I says, you have a daughter that died of an overdose of drugs. You have a son that's a junkie. A lot of trouble there, you got. My mother's a basket case and my other daughter's dying. That's your legacy. I said I don't expect you to take revenge on anybody. But after your third parole violation, why didn't you say, I'm done. Pick up your family, move the hell out of town so you don't get violated again. And worry about the family. You don't have to be a rat at that point. What are you betraying? You're not telling on any. You're not doing anything. No, I'm a rat. If I do this, I don't understand that mentality. I didn't get it. So for me, what it meant. It meant what my dad said. No matter what. This is the oath we took. And we can't violate the oath. I violated my oath. I talk about the life. I left the life. So I betrayed my oath.

[Sammy]

And you talked with agents.

[Michael]

I talked with agents.

[Sammy]

That's cooperation, Michael. Yeah, we can't wait. Listen, you're bringing this up now.

[Michael]

No, no, no, no.

[Sammy]

I'm not gonna accept that.

[Michael]

You don't have to accept it, but the reality of it is, here's my thinking. Nobody has to agree. Me and everybody can call me whatever your thinking is.

[Sammy]

The reality is that you sat with agents. That's breaking or mortal.

[Michael]

I said I broke it. I betrayed my oath.

[Sammy]

Yeah, and you talked about your crimes and everything else that's cooperating, and that's a race that, just like everybody else who cooperated, it doesn't have to mean that you took the stand once you break that oath.

[Michael]

But I already agreed to that. Yeah, I betrayed my oath.

[Sammy]

Your father had a mentality, and he's not the only one.

[Michael]

Okay, but let's.

[Sammy]

There's hundreds of guys who did that.

[Michael]

Let me finish. My thing was, I'll talk to the government, but I'm not going to put anybody in prison. I'm not gonna go to that extent. Huh?

[Sammy]

It's not your call.

[Michael]

It was my call.

[Sammy]

It's not your call, Sammy.

[Michael]

I could have taken a stand three or four times.

[Sammy]

Listen.

[Michael]

I could have taken a stand. Listen. No, no, no, no. Maybe John Riggy. No, no, no. John Riggy. I'll tell you why I went back on parole. Why they violated me. They brought me in to testify against John Riggy. My friend brought me into Newark while I was on Parole picked me up. Two agents brought me in, said we're putting you on the stand because he and I were partners in a business in New York. And I refused. I sent back within 10 days. I was violated because he was my friend. I couldn't do it.

[Sammy]

I don't know about that. I refused, too. Okay? But my point is, that doesn't mean I didn't cooperate.

[Michael]

No, no, no. Let me make my point. Then you can have the floor.

[Sammy]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Michael]

My point is, when I got out of the life, it wasn't because I was mad at anybody. Did people come do me wrong? Yes, they did. But I understood. That's part of the life. This. This life is a treacherous life, no matter how you look at it. I seen backstabbing. I seen guys got killed for the wrong reason. I seen what happened with my father. You want to know something? When the government came after me, they had real reason. Patrick. I can't say I was framed. The Giuliani case, it was questionable. I beat the case. Okay, I get it. You know, they're on one side of the. On the other. The gasoline case. I was guilty. I was guilty. When I took the plea on the gasoline case. There was no cooperation involved. I got a 10 year prison sentence, $15 million restitution, no cooperation, didn't talk to anybody, nothing. I did that because I beat them five times. I had leverage over the government. I made my deal because I was already planning to walk away from them. No, no, no, let me finish. No, this is important. I was in custody. They're taking me down to Florida, where I got indicted again on the whole gasoline case. We agreed that the case was going to go concurrent with my federal sentence. But you got to plead first in the state because the feds won't go concurrent with the state, but the state will go concurrent with the government. So I pleaded to the state. They gave me nine years. And on the way back, I'm on the plane with 10 agents who took me down there, and I'm teasing them. They're asking me, all right, Michael, now that it's over, when we were watching you here, was this what really happened? They're asking me all of these things, and they said to me, I said to them, you know why I took the plea? I said, I was tired of beating you. I beat you five times. I said, let me give you one. You got one. You know, one agent looked at me, I'll never forget. I see his eyes right now, and he said to me, michael, not this time. You became A superstar. They were long lining up to testify against you. You were going down. I never forgot that. And you know what? He was right. He was right.

[Sammy]

I don't follow what all of that meant. That's a good speech. No, it's not. You go in, you said your speech.

[Michael]

It wasn't a speech. Whatever it is, it wasn't a speech.

[Sammy]

It was explaining to it with the agents about your crimes when the guy was you and you cooperated against some Jewish guy.

[Michael]

What Jewish guy?

[Sammy]

You told me you. I don't know who the he is, Sammy.

[Michael]

I got subpoenaed to testify in that case, and I went in and I testified. The guy didn't do one day's time, not one day. He didn't do an hour in jail.

[Sammy]

Talking about maybe this Navy, Walters, whoever it was. If we have to go to that round, you could.

[Michael]

You get the facts. It's public record.

[Sammy]

I got a lot of agents I know, too. It's public, right? The public. Public record. I could get the unpublic record. But what happens is when you talk and you cooperate with the government now, they don't use you. You're not going to take the stand. You talked about your crimes. You talked about other things. And you have to plea or whatever they do. They gave you this plea. It's a problem.

[Michael]

No, you're wrong. You're wrong. I did not. There was no cooperation attached to my plea agreement in 1985. You can investigate high, low and everywhere in between. You can look up documents. You can go to the Freedom of Information act, do whatever you want.

[Sammy]

You can't go.

[Michael]

Freedom of information. Well, you got FBI connections. You got FBI connections. You could. There was no.

[Sammy]

I'll get it.

[Michael]

But there was no. No, no. Let me finish. You can't say that and then not.

[Sammy]

Let me finish. No, no, you let.

[Michael]

There was no cooperation 10 minutes. No, but there was. You just made an allegation. That's not true. There was no cooperation.

[Sammy]

I'll make it true.

[Michael]

There was no cooperation at times, attached to my plea agreement.

[Sammy]

Maybe it's not cooperation. I don't know what you wrote. You met with the agents and you talked with the agents.

[Michael]

I met with you five years later.

[Sammy]

Now, you just said you want to play with agents and you were joking. I had beat you once. I didn't go for that bullshit.

[Michael]

What are you talking. What are you talking about?

[Sammy]

You just said you were talking with agents. I beat you. So now I'm gonna give you one.

[Michael]

Sammy, I took. I. I was talking about my case. I took a plea. I was talking about my case. They were saying, michael, when we were following you here, was this what really happened?

[Sammy]

What I want you to understand is that when you talked with the agents, you talked about your crimes. You talked about other things. Now what happens is they didn't use you. They didn't use you.

[Michael]

They couldn't use me.

[Patrick]

I've been listening to you, and I don't want to say it, but I think you want to say. But you haven't said it yet. Is there anything you want to say to Michael in regards to cooperating?

[Sammy]

What can I say? He ratted. He cooperated. He cooperated with the government. He wants to get on his high horse. I didn't send somebody to prison. He met with the government and ratted. You're a rat. Talk about respect.

[Michael]

You want to talk like that, point.

[Sammy]

Your finger at me.

[Michael]

Oh, what are you gonna do?

[Sammy]

What am I gonna do? I'll break your face, that's what the fuck I'll do.

[Michael]

Let me tell you right, you're not.

[Sammy]

This was years ago.

[Michael]

You'd be fucking dead. Really? Yeah.

[Sammy]

Well, it's my fucking category. Semi. Oh, beautiful for spacious skies Forever.

[Michael]

Majesties above the fruited rain.

[Sammy]

America.

[Michael]

So beautiful.