Mafia States of America | Episode 4 - "Mob vs Government"

Summary

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Podcast Summary: PBD Podcast – Mafia States of America, Episode 4: "Mob vs Government"

Date: November 10, 2025
Host: Patrick Bet-David
Guests: Sammy “The Bull” Gravano, Michael Franzese, Legal Expert (unidentified), Poet/Singer

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Episode Overview

This episode of the PBD Podcast’s “Mafia States of America” series dives deep into the tangled and sometimes blurry relationship between organized crime and the American government. The guests, all with direct experience and knowledge of the mafia and law enforcement, explore where the mob’s tactics ended and the government’s began – revealing how power, corruption, violence and business intertwined across both spheres. The conversation is raw, candid, and often philosophical, peppered with lived anecdotes, reflections on crime and law, and pointed critiques of today’s institutions.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Mob, the Feds, and Breaking the Oath

• Sammy and Michael recall the costs and betrayals attached to cooperating with authorities and breaking the notorious mafia vow of silence.
  • Sammy on Loyalty: "Yes. They asked me about a lot of stuff. And I didn't tell them." (00:21)
  • Michael bluntly states, "If you don't agree to it, it's nothing." (00:32)
• The personal consequences and regrets of turning against the mob are acknowledged, with Michael reflecting darkly, "What I should have done. I was in jail with John. I should have killed him in prison." (00:47)
• The legal expert notes the difference between people inherently evil and those shaped by their circumstances. (00:55)

Mob Business Models: Violence, Industry, and the “Mafia Tax”

• Michael details how mafia rackets pervaded everyday commerce, often invisible to the average citizen:
  • "Every time, we would tax them in one way or another...raise the price of bread...of construction...They bitch a moment but did nothing. It's the same thing right now. We're politicians." (02:18)
• Legal Expert provides first-hand accounts of prosecuting loan sharks and describes the Mafia’s infiltration of politics, business, and even the church:
  • "They infiltrated our politics, they infiltrated our businesses, they infiltrated the church...They would run the garment industry...if you didn't pay...they would break their legs." (03:12)
• Violence was the backbone of enforcement in certain mafia businesses; without it, control would have been impossible:
  • "They never would have controlled the garment industry if it wasn't ultimately for universally illegal tactics." (05:03)

Mob Power vs Political Power

• Sammy distinguishes mafia criminality from government wrongdoing:
  • "We did things not to hurt the vast majority of people...We did things within our sphere of influence." (07:15)
• The legal expert describes how the mafia was “multinational,” infiltrating unions, Las Vegas, construction, pornography, and even the judiciary via blackmail. (07:37)
• Extortion of both businessmen and officials was common: "A business guy comes in, he runs a big company. They want to move in and take half the company. They put the pictures on the table." (08:21)

Corruptibility: Local Cops vs Feds

• Patrick probes which public officials were easier for the mob to influence:
  • Both Sammy and Michael agree local police, not the feds:
    • "Locals were easier. We grew up in the same neighborhood." (09:42)
    • "I had cops who weren't on the tape who would say, whispering like, Sammy, watch your back, bro." (10:01)
  • Feds, on the other hand, “don’t even know where we are. So how do you approach these people?” (10:34)
• Historical context: Michael alleges J. Edgar Hoover was “with the Mafia...history of it now. Yeah, it's a fact.” (11:48)
  • He connects this to the Kennedy assassination, suggesting the government will never reveal mob ties due to the "embarrassment to get to a sitting president." (14:16)

Government Learning from the Mob & The Blurred Line

• Patrick asks: Who learned more from whom – government or mob?
  • Michael argues, “The government...used some of our evil ways and brought it to a whole other level.” (16:43)
  • Sammy calls government actions “bullying”—“When people that don't have power on their own use the power of government to take advantage of people...they're bullies and they're cowards.” (17:02)
• They see modern government and big tech wielding power similarly to the mob, citing "cancel culture" and the pandemic as examples of oppression and overreach. (17:36–18:16)

Legalization, Prohibition, and the Ironic Normalization of Old Rackets

• Patrick floats a thought experiment: what if the mobsters knew gambling, drugs, prostitution would become both mainstream and state-controlled?
  • “Casino is going to be everywhere...multi, multi, multibillion dollar industry...It’s going to be legal.” (19:16)
  • Sammy says he would have believed it, Michael says he wouldn’t:
    • “I wouldn’t think it’d be possible because it’s so hard to get so many...industries...media...big tech...the Democratic Party...Hollywood...Now, I think it happened.” (20:19)
  • The mob used to be punished for activities (gambling, bootlegging) later embraced and monopolized by the government. (21:22)
• Legal Expert draws a line: some old mob rackets have gone legit, others are still crimes (“It’s not illegal to kill anybody”). (21:59)

Is There Really a Difference? “Who’s Being Naive, Kay?”

• Reference to 'The Godfather,' Patrick questions whether politicians truly operate differently than mobsters:
  • Michael describes their worldview of parallel morality, comparing mob hits to military action and questioning society’s double standards. (22:10–23:16)
  • Legal expert: “Some of it is they’re doing the same tactics...It is true, true that there’s politicians...who get people killed...” but emphasizes intent and institutional mission as key differences. (23:16)
  • Still, even government can slip into systemic criminality: “If you don’t comply, you get smashed up, your bar burned, beaten up...but that isn’t the way government operates, except when it’s a real aberration.” (24:17)

Why Not Go Legit?

• Patrick asks why the mob didn’t just become a legitimate political machine:
  • Michael says Prohibition’s payouts made bribery and corruption inevitable, and when the government saw how profitable these rackets were, “they throw us out and they took over. Great idea.” (26:05–26:31)
  • Sammy observes: “People want to gamble...what does the government do? They capitalize on it...the drug business, the same thing...They tax people. They make money on it.” (26:34)
  • On government caring about its people: “I don’t care what you say. They don’t care about the health or the welfare of those people involved. They don’t care.” (27:07)

Corruption, McCarthyism, RICO, and Cancel Culture

• Patrick explores whether RICO and government excess have reached a point-of-no-return:
  • Legal Expert: “They begin to become abused when you go into maybe a second generation or a third generation of using them...and people that don’t have the same moral constraints see the advantages they can get out of it.” (30:19)
  • He draws a parallel with McCarthyism and today’s cancel culture—“very, very interesting, Patrick. Tremendous, tremendous analogy to today.” (30:08)

The Future of the American System: Hopelessly Corrupt?

• The panel expresses deep concern over increasing government power and inability to resist it.
  • Sammy: “How do you beat a government that won two wars and prints its own money?...It’s become a...I personally believe this country is in a lot of trouble. I don’t think we’re going to recover.” (31:25)
  • Michael: “They want the whole party and they don’t care who dies.” (32:16)
• Patrick argues corruption is as old as government itself, while Michael says the difference is scale and greed:
  • “We took a little bite of the pie. These people want $30 or $40 out of that dress...They want the whole party.” (32:16)
• The conversation turns to specific officials, with disdain aimed at New York’s Cuomo family, especially the handling of COVID-19 deaths in nursing homes. (33:48–37:22)

Mob, Unions, and Modern Power

• Show closes on reflections about abusing power in unions, government, and the pandemic era:
  • Sammy: “When you were in our life, if you abused your power, you didn’t last. You got people in government that are 81 years old that have been abusing their power...since the day they got into office.” (39:44)
  • Legal Expert: “From roughly the time that the pandemic broke, there’s been the worst, most damaging assault on our civil rights and our constitutional rights ever in the history of this country.” (40:12)

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Memorable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• Michael Franzese: "If you don't agree to it, it's nothing." (00:32)
• Sammy Gravano: "I had plenty of money. I would have paid anything to anybody in the federal system to get my dad out of jail. I couldn't do it." (09:18)
• Legal Expert: "They infiltrated our politics, they infiltrated our businesses, they infiltrated the church." (03:12)
• Sammy Gravano: "You call that...bullies and they're cowards as far as I'm concerned...We couldn't fight the government." (17:02)
• Patrick Bet-David: "Who learned from you guys the most...politicians and the government, who took the most pages out of your playbook?" (16:36)
• Michael Franzese: "The government...used some of our evil ways and brought it to a whole other level." (16:43)
• Patrick Bet-David (on the ironies of history): "Casino is going to be everywhere...it's going to become legal." (19:16)
• Legal Expert: "Some of the things they were doing are legal today...It's not illegal to kill anybody." (21:59)
• Michael Franzese: "They want the whole party and they don’t care who dies." (32:16)
• Legal Expert: "From roughly the time that the pandemic broke, there's been the worst, most damaging assault on our civil rights and our constitutional rights ever in the history of this country." (40:12)

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Notable and Memorable Moments

• Kennedy Assassination Theories: Sammy and Michael both allude to deep-seated mob involvement and suppressed government records (“Those classified documents will never be exposed because the...government will never want to admit that the mob had a hand in killing the sitting president.” – Sammy, 14:17).
• "Who's being naive, Kay?": A Godfather movie quote becomes the pivot for a debate about whether government ethics really differ from mob ethics (22:10–23:16).
• Gambling, Drugs, and Prohibition: The mafia’s historical side hustles have become today's state-sanctioned industries, provoking both wry humor and sober reflection from the guests (21:22).
• Systemic Corruption: Agreement among the guests that today's government, especially amid pandemic-era overreach and growing big tech influence, operates with tactics not dissimilar to mafia organizations ("big tech shuts people down...the news media takes one part, not the other...We lost a half a million people in this country. Nobody's doing that." – Michael, 17:36).
• Power and Abuse: Sammy reflects that, unlike the government, the mob rooted out those who abused power: “If you abused your power, you didn't last.” (39:44)
• Legal Expert's Warning: The episode ends with a stark warning about civil liberties under threat: “...the worst, most damaging assault on our civil rights and our constitutional rights ever in the history of this country.” (40:12)

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Key Timestamps for Reference

• Mob business and public complicity: 02:18–03:12
• Legal Expert on mafia infiltration: 03:12–04:56
• Differences in corruptibility (locals vs feds): 09:09–11:00
• J. Edgar Hoover, the FBI, and mob leverage: 11:48–14:16
• Government “learns from the mob”: 16:36–17:24
• Mob tactics, legalization, and government cooption: 19:16–22:10
• Moral equivalence debate ("Who's being naive, Kay?"): 22:10–23:16
• Reflections on organized crime, unions, and pandemics: 39:41–40:35

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Conclusion

This episode offers a riveting, no-holds-barred conversation on the blurred lines and bitter ironies between mob and government conduct. Guests draw on lived criminal experience, legal analysis, and sharp social criticism to unpack how today’s institutions reflect the shadowy logic and survival strategies of organized crime. The result is an unfiltered meditation on corruption, history, and American power – essential listening for anyone interested in the true costs and legacies of both criminal empires and the political system.

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Transcript

[Narrator]

Previously on Mafia States of America.

[Patrick]

Was there names? Was there anything when you met with the feds?

[Sammy]

Yes. They asked me about a lot of stuff.

[Patrick]

Okay.

[Sammy]

And I didn't tell them.

[Michael]

He talked with them, but he didn't tell them.

[Sammy]

Sammy, you did this, this and this and that. Because of that, you're a rat.

[Michael]

A month is a piece of shit. If you don't agree to it. If you don't agree to it, it's nothing.

[Sammy]

Why are they talking about me?

[Patrick]

Do either of you regret breaking the oath or no? If you hadn't done it again, would you have done it the same exact way after you heard the report with.

[Michael]

John a second time around? What I should have done. I was in jail with John. I should have killed him in prison.

[Patrick]

That's what you should have done and did.

[Legal Expert]

Life without balloon There are a few people that are genetically inherently bad, evil. But most people are shaped that way by circumstances.

[Poet/Singer]

America, sweet America Happy to sh.

[Michael]

He.

[Poet/Singer]

Cry to shoot.

[Narrator]

Mob life is a paradox. These guys do it for the money, but the more money they make, the more the government wants them. They all want to be boss, but the more powerful they get, the more the government wants them. So you tell me, how do they win?

[Michael]

When we were doing things, rigging, all kinds of things, the public, it didn't do anything. Nothing. I would see a woman, good looking woman with a beautiful dress. We were getting kicked back from the garment industry. I blow the horn, boop, boop, boop. She thinks I'm flirting with us. She smiles, I smile. I don't give a fuck about her. That dress. I make $5 a dress. That's why I blow a dog. She thinks I'm flirting with her. I'm happy she's wearing that dress. But the people are like zombies sometimes. Every time, we would tax them in one way or another. Raise the price of bread. We had the Bread Association. Raise the price of construction. Raise the price of this. They bitch a moment but did nothing. It's the same thing right now. Were politicians.

[Legal Expert]

When I became U.S. attorney in 1983, they were the most powerful organized crime group in the country. And they were the only organized crime group that had become semi legitimate. They infiltrated our politics, they infiltrated our businesses, they infiltrated the church. Church, yeah. They had certain cardinals and bishops that they did business with. Catholic church, Catholic Church. I mean, the way they would run the garment industry is a little different. The way it usually run. They have to do a lot of factoring. They have to do a lot of very, very sketchy loans just as part of their business because of accounts receivable. But now if they don't pay and it's a legitimate operation, you take them to court, they would break their legs. Or I had one guy, loan sharking guy, who got involved with him. He came from a very rich family. He was sort of a ne' er do well who had a trust and he got in very deeply. To Vito's brother in law, Giulio Gazia. Gazia was a cruel, sadistic human being. And he got him to pay. He took his hand. They held one side of the hand on one side of the door, the other, and they crashed his hand over with the door. They just closed the door on his hand. When I tried the case, I let him show his hand to the entire jury. It was all caved in. That's how they collected money. It's sort of almost romantic when they say, oh, it was legal. Yeah, it was. It's legal now to loan money at interest, a big interest. But the bank can't come in and crash you and bust up your hand or break your kneecaps or beat up your daughter. Which they would do.

[Patrick]

Does their business model work without that? Does their business model work without the violence?

[Legal Expert]

Some of it yes, some of it no. They never would have control of the garment industry if it wasn't ultimately for universally illegal tactics. So it was a smart thing they did. They focused on the garment industry because heavy gamblers and always looking for a loan. Because of the nature of the business where you're producing the garments, you don't get paid for six months. So they go to the bank. Then they got to go to a factor. And in those days there was only a limit you could get to. And then you got to go to the Mob plus right near Madison Square Garden. I can't tell you how many of those guys I prosecuted for tax evasion. I prosecute them to get them to testify against the Mafia. I mean, they're massive gamblers, particularly sports gamblers. They're, you know, the joke is, and you go to Madison Square Garden to watch a college game and the team is winning and you should be really, really excited. And then all of a sudden they're losing the point spread. And you can hear the crowd go, the team is winning by 10 points, but they're supposed to win by 14. And nobody understands. New York, New York is rooting for the point spread. They're not rooting for the team. So they got a sense of that right away. And they realized, boy, we can move in on this. We start loaning the money at ridiculous rates of interest. We start taking their bets and getting them into us. And then one day we visit them and say, look what you owe me. You can't pay this. Well, you got a choice. We're not greedy. Give us half the business. We're your partner. You run it. You can still keep 50%. That's a nice living. You give us the other 50%, and you turn the business over to us. We'll let you stay here and work. And they did for the guys who wanted. The guys who didn't want to do it ended up in the. You know, in Canarsie somewhere. That's the part that. That they leave out.

[Sammy]

Our criminality, I think, was a little different. We kind of. And I got to be careful how I say this, because I don't want to say that we were good criminals. I'm not saying that. But we did things not to hurt the vast majority of people. I don't think we were pulling a wool over the whole country. You know, we did things within our sphere of influence.

[Legal Expert]

Organized crime by the 80s, let's say, right before I started to get involved, had really become a massive illegal business, multinational illegal business. Unlike other criminal groups, it had infiltrated into legitimate parts of life. I viewed it as. You have a lot of organized crime groups. Russian, Chinese, various other groups. But the mafia grew tentacles like an octopus. So the tentacles were Las Vegas, the Teamsters Union, the garment industry. In New York, you could not get a whore without picking a mafia business. And it turns out you paid about 30% more than you should pay. That was the mafia tax. The fish market was famous for being controlled by the Mafia. The pornography bars on the west side, maybe 67 of them, all controlled by the mafia. Controlled for a lot of reasons. Cash for laundering, but for extortion. Judge Jones had come in dressed a little different, looking a little different. He'd pick up a guy. Nice picture. We got Judge Jones, district attorney. So and so comes in another nice picture. We got that one. Maybe we never use it. Maybe we get in front of him and somebody visits him and said, would you like to show this to your wife and kids? It was a great place for extortion or extortion of businessmen. A business guy comes in, he runs a big company. They want to move in and take half the company. They put the pictures on the table.

[Patrick]

So what was easier to control back in the day? Local cops or federal mayors or governors? Local cops were easier.

[Sammy]

Patrick, I'm going to tell you this at the time, I had plenty of money. I had plenty of resources. I would have paid anything to anybody in the federal system to get my dad out of jail. I couldn't do it. There was no amount of money that I was able to pay to get my father out. And I offered it. It was out there. I offered it.

[Michael]

It was hard with the feds.

[Sammy]

Couldn't do it.

[Patrick]

Local was easy.

[Sammy]

Locals look.

[Michael]

The locals nowhere. The locals were easier. We grew up in the same. Before they do a different system. We grew up in the same neighborhood.

[Patrick]

Got it.

[Michael]

We would get. We would fight. We would go out with the same girls. He became a cop. We knew each other.

[Sammy]

We had neighbors, we had people.

[Patrick]

So it's easier to do that.

[Michael]

Yes. And then what they did. The cops were smart, too. If we came out of Bensonhurst, he became a cop. He couldn't work in Bensonhurst. He worked in the Bronx over there or in Harlem or somewhere. They didn't want him there because a cop, even cops, I had cops who weren't on the tape who would say, whispering like, sammy, watch your back, bro. He didn't want no money. He didn't want nothing. We grew up together, so he had a little bit of feeling towards me. So it made it a little easier. Now if he had a little bit of corrupt or he needed some money, then maybe we could. So it was easier to deal with that. Now, feds, who the fuck knows where they come from. Alabama, Utah, they're coming from different states. They don't even know where we are. So how do you approach these people?

[Patrick]

Meaning befriending them, building a relationship with them that made it harder like that. Was that a part of the change?

[Michael]

Ten times, yeah, of course.

[Patrick]

So at that point, they couldn't be bought, so there was no check. They could buy the federal agents, and.

[Michael]

Then they made a lot more money.

[Sammy]

I offered millions.

[Michael]

Couldn't do it.

[Patrick]

Couldn't do anything to help your debt out. Okay, well, by the way, a couple.

[Michael]

Of them were bad. Scappa Senior had a guy who was cooperating on Snake. He had a couple of.

[Patrick]

In some ways, that kind of shows credibility to them, doesn't it?

[Michael]

No.

[Sammy]

No, because maybe they didn't have the juice to make it look. The federal system is different. I mean, people are looking and watching all the time. I mean, they ride on each other, you know, know they're. They're after. It's just different. People are scared. Some of them at that level, maybe to do something with us, not with each other, with each Other I don't have to worry or maybe to do something with us.

[Michael]

See now and. And then if you go back a little further, we had Hoover. Hoover was with the Mafia. It's another fucking weird thing. I'm going to come out with that. People know. Are you crazy? He was with the Mafia. There's history of it now. Yeah, it's a fact and a fact and a little bit. He was afraid of the Mafia that he was a closet gay and he was afraid for it to come out. So. And they never. They helped him and he abided by. This is a guy as the director of the FBI for years denounced. There was no such thing. There was no such mof. Even when fucking. Who's that guy who cooperated the first time Farachi got on the thing that embarrassed him into. He was puzzled. He still denied it.

[Patrick]

Is this because one of the members showed up with pictures of what they had of his? Is that what it was?

[Michael]

No, I don't really think they put pressure on him that way. He liked the horses, they would fix races, they'd give him the horses. He had no malice towards them and with other little secrets like that. They held him, they never hurt him, they never tried to hurt him. So. And I don't think it was, from what I understand, big money's transplant. They had a relationship. Frank Costello took over the family right after Luciano went away. He took it over. Luciano put him there and he took it over, ran it. And he was like this with Hoover then he had another reason that Bobby Kennedy, he hated Bobby Kenny and vice versa. So this is where this Kennedy, you go back to them. Bobby Kennedy had so many enemies. So was the Mafia. Looks like a lot of those old, you know, cut off the head, the fist dies all that.

[Sammy]

Bobby was the one that got his brother killed.

[Patrick]

Oh, of course. Yeah, that's.

[Michael]

Yeah, without a doubt.

[Sammy]

And I will tell you this, Patrick. There is not classified documents in the Kennedy assassination that I believe two years ago Trump was talking about. He wanted to release those classified documents and then all of a sudden it stopped. I've heard this my whole life. I don't know why people would have to tell me something different. My father just general conversation I enjoyed.

[Michael]

All my life to.

[Sammy]

Yeah general conversation that we had a hand in killing Kennedy. Those classified documents will never be exposed because the federal the government will never want to admit that the mob had a hand in killing the sitting president. Why wouldn't they come on the embarrassment to get to a sitting president. But why was a lone maniac here's why.

[Patrick]

Here's why today, though. Why wouldn't matter today. I get that time.

[Michael]

Here's why. Bobby had so many. John wasn't disliked by the mob at all. Bobby had so many enemies, whether it was Hoffa, whether it was the unions, whether it was the Mafia in different states, powerful Mafiosos all over the place. Hoover hated him.

[Legal Expert]

That's right.

[Michael]

So you don't know. I'm not saying a Mafioso shot him on from the grassy knoll. Could have been CIA. It could have been the government, but it was such a group of people that he hurt Bobby. And old Italian things, you cut off the head, the fish dies. His head was cut off, blown off, the fish died. They came in one day and they said, we'd like to talk to you about the killing of President Kennedy. I'd like to know the information that you have on that.

[Poet/Singer]

Me?

[Michael]

Yeah. Are you joking? Does this look like a joke? I said, well, we don't shoot from a grassy knoll. Maybe you guys did that. Maybe the CIA did that. Close this meeting. Get those notes. And they left. They didn't even let me finish and walked out.

[Sammy]

We have never discussed this ever.

[Michael]

No.

[Sammy]

He comes from a different place than I came. He heard it all his life. He was involved. I heard it my whole life. Why would they make it out, our guys?

[Patrick]

Who learned from you guys the most free enterprise, free market, or politicians and the government, who took the most pages out of your playbook?

[Michael]

Not learned, not learned. The government, I could learn more, but they used some of our evil ways and brought it to a whole other level. Wow. This is good, what they were doing with the union. We were controlling unions. He could tell you. Almost all of them in construction, you know.

[Sammy]

You call that Patty? You call that a bully? When people that don't have power on their own use the power of government to take advantage of people with less power than them? They're bullies and they're cowards as far as I'm concerned. Because, look, we had a lot of strength on the street. We couldn't fight the government.

[Michael]

No.

[Sammy]

It's like somebody recently said to me, how do you fight somebody who won two world wars, right, and. And controls the world correctly? How do you fight that? But they're bullies.

[Michael]

And not only that, but they have companions. Big tech shuts people down. Who fucks with that other issue? The news media takes one part, not the other. When I was a kid, you listened to the news media, you would say to yourself, wow, this guy said, this, it was gospel. I don't even know who's telling the truth anymore, who's lying. No, not every day is another weird story. This Fauci guy, he's bouncing off the wall. It's a different story every other day. We lost a half a million people in this country. Nobody's doing that.

[Sammy]

And we don't even know what the truth or a lie is. We don't know if this thing was created in Wuhan. Remember this affected the whole world. Not only did it kill people, people are starving now because business was destroyed. Everything is rude and they won't even tell us the truth. And I believe they know it.

[Michael]

How could they not know it? They know it. And you know what I say, Michael?

[Sammy]

So how is that? How is, how are we. How are we any worse than them?

[Michael]

No, you're not even a pimple on their ass. But you know what I say to that? How can nobody say nothing about the teachers union shutting down all the schools? They are brainwashing our kids in schools. They're making white kids hate themselves because they're white. They're making black people say something to get them to do, and we don't say nothing.

[Sammy]

So how bad is it when two former mobsters that did what they did in their life are sitting here complaining about the government and not that they're coming after us. They're coming after everybody.

[Patrick]

If I told you in 1983, okay, let's just say we meet somewhere and I say, guys, I got this newspaper from 2021. Casino is going to be everywhere. It's going to be a multi, multi, multibillion dollar industry. Be patient. It's going to get legal. This whole loan sharking thing you're doing, Michael, that you're charging 25% per month, that's nothing. It's going to become legal. You can do 600% per year if you want to. It's payday loans. They're everywhere. Drugs. Don't worry about it, guys. Drugs are going to be legal. There's going to be a lot of ways to make money with drugs. It's the direction we're going. This whole prostitution thing. Onlyfans, you know, we're going to have stuff that's going to be. There's so many ways to make money with that, be patient with that. Betting. Don't worry about it. There's going to be this thing one day called fantasy football, fantasy baseball. It's going to be multi, multi billion dollar industries where presidents every year are going to pick in fantasy a Perfect bracket on who's going to win the NCAA championship. Don't worry about it, guys. This thing's going to be legal. If I would have told you that in 1981, what would you have said to me?

[Sammy]

Because I hated the government.

[Patrick]

I believed they were corrupt.

[Sammy]

I would have believed it.

[Patrick]

Oh, so you would have believed that.

[Michael]

I wouldn't.

[Patrick]

You wouldn't have believed it.

[Michael]

I wouldn't think that it'd be possible because it's so hard to get so many multiple families, let alone industries. Would the media confer with Big tech, with the Democratic Party, with this, with Hollywood? Could you go all those people on board? I would think no. Would it happen? Do I think now? I think it happened.

[Sammy]

You know, I believe it, too, Pat. When OTB came into New York, when they started, when the state of New York took over the betting polish for the racetrack, I said, this is the start of it. They finally seen, okay, it was almost like prohibition. People want to gamble. You're not going to stop them from gambling. Same with alcohol.

[Patrick]

But now it's illegal.

[Legal Expert]

It's legal.

[Patrick]

My uncle in Iran was a bootlegger.

[Michael]

You know, oh, my gosh.

[Sammy]

He's a bootleg.

[Michael]

Oh, that guy's a bootlegger.

[Patrick]

Guy's doing Instagram commercial saying, buy my new tequila. Buy my new this. People are becoming billionaires selling their tequila brands, and they're professional legal bootleggers.

[Sammy]

I think there was a time when street guys, the mob, we really had it over the government. Prohibition is a perfect example. You can say whatever you want about gangsters. When gangsters are knocking around trying to make a dollar here, a dollar there, there's nothing there. When you put hundreds of millions of dollars in their pocket, they become an organization. Prohibition is what created the mob in this country, and it's what made cosa grow in this country because that's when the money came in.

[Patrick]

What do you say to a Sammy or Michael that says, look, you know, we were doing this. It was illegal then, but a lot of people are using our model today.

[Legal Expert]

They're half right and half wrong. Some of the things they were doing are legal today. Some of the things they're doing that we're doing are not illegal. It's not illegal to kill anybody.

[Patrick]

Kane, Michael Arwakin, this is Godfather 1.

[Legal Expert]

I think I know the one you're going to talk about. Yeah, this is in New Hampshire or.

[Patrick]

Maine or wherever the dog runs right by them. And Michael says to Kay, you know, Kay, my father is no different than any other powerful man any man with power, like a president or a senator. Kay says, you know how naive that you sound? Michael says, why? Kay says, senators and presidents don't have people killed. Michael says, who's being naive? Kay? Right. So on the flip side of it, you know, Sammy says, look, I was in the Army. If I go in the army and kill a bad guy, 19 people, I'm a hero. I get a, you know, I get a badge, I get to say Medal of Honor, what a great soldier. You know, I went and killed people for my country, right? So that's what I did. But on this end, I go do what I'm doing. I'm a criminal, right? So what they're trying to say is politicians do the same thing as they're doing. So they saw themselves as a form of a government, just like the US Government did. Who is really being naive, Kay or Michael?

[Legal Expert]

It isn't a matter of being naive. It's a matter of being too romantic about what they're really like. Some of it's true. I mean, some of it is they're doing the same tactics that happen in legit in legitimate businesses. It is true, true that there's politicians, some who get people killed. And maybe there are presidents who do it also. I would distinguish having people killed because they're terrorists and they're going to come and kill 10 million people, that isn't what they're doing. I mean, if you're talking about presidents who get people killed in wars, it's a little bit different. I mean, did Roosevelt get people killed or did he have to do it because Japan attacked Pearl Harbor? But there may be situations in which presidents have had people killed for political reasons. I don't know. There are people who think there were, people who think there weren't. There's surely a situation where politicians have done it, but they don't do it as part of the business. I mean that their business was.

[Michael]

If.

[Legal Expert]

We have to resort to it, we always have it there. Which is what often made them situation. I mean, go right back to the beginning. They walked in on the little Italian guy running a bar or a candy store and they said, you're giving me 20% per week. Why am I doing that? I'm not making much money. Because if you don't, you're not going to have the bar. And then the few that resisted, they smashed up the bar, burned the bar, beat up the guy, beat up his daughter, and then everybody complied. That really isn't the way government operates, except when it's a real Aberration that's the way they operate as a rule. So I think there's a big difference. I think they like to see themselves that way. Makes it easier on your conscience. But it's a very. It's a very different thing when you're totally devoted to crime or you're totally devoted to something else. And some people commit crimes. I mean, take a police department. I've prosecuted a lot of corrupt police officers, but the police department wasn't corrupt. The whole police department was a group of people that were corrupt. And then you have an opportunity to weed them out. And whatever else you think of the New York City Police Department today, with all the other charges, there's really no substantial corruption in the New York City Police Department anymore because that wasn't the main mission. Their main mission is to be corrupt, to be dishonest, to make money that way.

[Patrick]

Why not legalize? Was it because you wanted to put in their face? Was it because the money was easy to make? Was it the adrenaline? Was it the camaraderie? Was it the fact that. What was the reason why somebody didn't just say, guys, let's sit here and figure this thing out. Let's go become a political party. Let's have a vision of what this thing can be one day. Let's build something big.

[Michael]

What he's saying is what Prohibition did, and he's 1,000% right, and those piles of money that came in that was used, they were bribing judges, senators, congressmen, cops, you name it. And that really showed them what time it is. And then again, like everything else, they throw us out and they took over. Great idea.

[Sammy]

Exactly.

[Michael]

Why did we think it is the same with anything.

[Sammy]

Same with gambling. People want to gamble. You're not going to stop them from gambling. So what does the government do? They capitalize on it. What is a big sports. They capitalize on it because they can't stop it. The drug business, the same thing. People, look, unfortunately, I had drugs in my family. And I say this. You can take a drug addict, Patrick, you can put them in the center of the Sahara Desert or the Pacific Ocean. They will find drugs.

[Poet/Singer]

They want it.

[Sammy]

I've seen it witnessed in my family. You're not going to stop it. So what does the government do? They get involved in it, and what do they do? They tax people. They make money on it.

[Michael]

They don't care about.

[Sammy]

I don't care what you say. They don't care about the health of the welfare of those people involved. They don't care.

[Patrick]

I Want to read you a quote of what Abraham Lincoln once said. He said, prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself where it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded on.

[Legal Expert]

Great wisdom. Great wisdom.

[Patrick]

Do you think a part of McCarthyism and RICO kind of open up the can of worms where now it's past the tipping point and they can kind of push the envelope even more?

[Legal Expert]

Yeah, yeah. No question about it. I mean you look at McCarthyism which is very young, but my parents were very anti communist and kind of really, one was a Democrat, one was a Republican. But they both kind of liked McCarthy originally. He was like almost a hero. So I had a great insight from them because they turned on him. And I remember when they did. It's when he, when he did that thing with the. I've got the names of. I've forgotten the number. I have the names on this list of 230 Communist Party members in the State Department. And then it turned out he never produced a list. It reminds me of Adam Schiff when he said he had direct evidence of President Trump dealing with the Russians. Where is it, Adam? It's four years now, we still don't have the direct evidence. Evidence. Here's the tragedy with McCarthy. He was right and then he overdid it. Yes, the communists had infiltrated the government. Yes, the Roosevelt administration going back to the 30s had very significant communists advising him and they gave him some bad advice. Just give an example. We were, we were anti Germany, anti Japan. Then all of a sudden Stalin and Hitler make a pact and all Roosevelt's advisors are now advising to stay out of the war because they were more loyal to Stalin than they were to the US when we go to Yalta, basically he caves into Stalin because he's getting sick and old. And Churchill had a much healthier view of Stalin. We gotta use him. We gotta make Uncle Joe feel really good. And once we win the war, we double cross him for the good of humanity. Roosevelt, really. I can control him. I can control him because his people were telling him that because they had communist sympathies. Al Ja. His whatever. So he had a real thing probably at the beginning. He then that power went to his head piercing became an alcoholic and then he was accusing anybody who said anything to Robertson became a communist. Reporters, celebrities, Would you call it essentially.

[Patrick]

The first cancel culture that we experienced? It was a cancel culture.

[Legal Expert]

It's very, very interesting, Patrick. Tremendous, tremendous analogy to today.

[Patrick]

How concerned are you about how far this thing can go? Are we at a tipping point where there's no turning around?

[Legal Expert]

I'm very concerned about it. It's a little bit different because mostly these laws we're talking about had and have a good purpose and have a history of being used for a good purpose, and then they begin to become abused when you go into maybe a second generation or a third generation of using them. And people that don't have the same moral constraints see the advantages they can get out of it. Whether you're talking about rico, which would be one of the earlier, or the Patriot act, things like that. And. And right now. So we Fast forward from 1981, 82, when they never used RICO, to now, basically, it's all of this secret surveillance that they do. Rico's almost irrelevant to the things they use now. And I see all these lies to the FISA court, but no consequence to means the next guy's going to lie even more.

[Michael]

How do you view the government as very corrupt?

[Patrick]

How do you view the government?

[Sammy]

Listen, you can't draw. You can't throw a blanket over the entire. Everybody in the government, obviously, but the government is corrupt. There's no doubt about it. How do you beat a government that won two wars and prints its own money? Chaz Bombadari said that. I'd forgotten the last part of it. They do basically what they want, Patrick. It's become a. I personally believe this country is in a lot of trouble. I don't think we're going to recover. I think it's reached a point where we're in a lot of trouble. I worry about my kids and my grandchildren. And you're talking to a guy that was a criminal at one time.

[Patrick]

Going back to saying this government being corrupt. When has the government never been corrupt? I mean, historically, if you look at government, I can't think of any government I've ever read about, no, that hasn't officially used their power to bully people.

[Michael]

Kennedys, clearly the worst. They were caught with everything. I mean, it was ridiculous what they did and we did. But here's the difference. I agree with what he said. When we had. When we doing all these things, I call it, we had our beak in it. We took a little bite of the pie. Like I said about that woman walking around with the dress. I get $5 a dress. These people want $30 or $40 out of that dress. So now a woman can't even go buy a dress. She's got to go look for John's Bargain Store or something. That's the difference. We took pieces. I was in Paul's house during a garbage strike. We're sitting in his house. He sent for Jimmy Brown, who ran the union there. Clean up these things, you got garbage stacked up in front of hospitals, old age homes, schools. Clean that up, you could win. But with everything else, what are we, animals? It wasn't. He didn't want the whole party. He was content on taking a piece and not hurting everybody. And I've heard it with my own two ears. So what he's saying is 100% right. We all did it. I did it as well. I don't want to say I'm a little guy, but. But I do have children and grandchildren just like he does. And I worry about that because they're so greedy. They want the whole party and they don't care who dies.

[Sammy]

You know, I'll say this. We talked about people. I believe Mario Cuomo is the worst guy, the father. Absolutely not Mario. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

[Patrick]

Chris Cuomo or Andrew?

[Sammy]

Governor Cuomo.

[Patrick]

Okay, Governor Cuomo.

[Legal Expert]

Mario was a pretty decent father.

[Michael]

Yes.

[Sammy]

Yes, he was a decent guy. I don't think his father would approve.

[Patrick]

He's your era, right, Mario?

[Sammy]

Yes.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

How did you guys view him?

[Michael]

It was a legitimate.

[Patrick]

Did you ever deal with them? Did you have any dealings? Did the mob do business with them or.

[Sammy]

No, I had some experience with him and meet Esposito at the time, favors or no?

[Patrick]

Was favor.

[Sammy]

Yeah. Favors, yes.

[Patrick]

So the mob helped Mario out.

[Sammy]

He wasn't an enemy. I'll put it that way.

[Michael]

Now, I'm not saying everybody else.

[Patrick]

Yeah, but wait a minute.

[Michael]

This.

[Legal Expert]

This is.

[Patrick]

What does that mean? You helped Mario out? Like, in what way? Was it helping him in an election? Was it helping him in a.

[Sammy]

Listen, you know, you. You. You. You fund operations that they have. You know, you. You get a favor in return. Look, I can only tell you this. We. It wasn't easy to get license to be a wholesaler at the time of the gasoline business.

[Poet/Singer]

Business.

[Sammy]

And we had. We needed political clout to do it. It wasn't easy to get it.

[Patrick]

He helped.

[Sammy]

We had helped this guy. There was a couple of people that were favorable to us.

[Patrick]

Many names were brought up. So I asked him, I said, who was easier to bribe, you know, when you were a mobster, was it the Republicans, the Democrats who Was it? They said, not even close. It was always easier to bribe and buy, you know, Democrats. I said, give me names.

[Poet/Singer]

Who?

[Patrick]

Anybody that maybe you work with they can talk about. We started kind of going through a list of names. They spoke very favorably about Mario Cuomo. Governor Mario Cuomo.

[Legal Expert]

Yeah.

[Sammy]

I would, too.

[Patrick]

Yeah. And they said very good things. But they also said we had him in our pockets, you know, meaning they.

[Legal Expert]

Had him in their pocket somewhat because of his own. His own limitations in his thinking and somewhat because of his wife. So his wife. Wife's family. And I hate to say this because she's a lovely woman. I think Matilda is just a grand lady, but this is part of the Italian experience. Had Mafia connections, and the governor was always afraid that if he ran, they would be exploited. And I opposed Mario in the sense of. My political philosophy was completely different than his, certainly at that point in my life, even though I endorsed him for governor. Well, I'll explain why later. I needed the money for the city. I always thought Mario overdid it. I don't think. I know. I know. And really can't quite describe in detail to you. It wouldn't be right. The details of it. And it's not nearly as serious as he thought it was. I mean, it's the kind of thing you could easily explain as had nothing to do with Matilda, had nothing to do with Mario. And it's the kind of thing that happened back in those days when you had to conduct a business, and if you didn't play ball with them, they were victims. They weren't. They easily could have been interpreted that way. That's the way I interpreted it. He saw shadows about it. You know how sometimes people are more embarrassed about something than they should be. I always thought that was the case with Mario, largely because he was very ethical, a very good man.

[Patrick]

Mario was.

[Legal Expert]

Yeah. Very, very good man and someone I respected greatly.

[Michael]

I hate to get into Governor Cuomo. I will a little bit, because he's Italian. I can't stand it.

[Patrick]

You can't stand Governor Cuomo?

[Michael]

No, I1 because he's Italian. I'm embarrassed to have somebody do what he did as an Italian.

[Patrick]

Why is that?

[Michael]

He killed 15,000 people by putting people with the coronavirus in with all people. I don't give a fuck who tells me to do that, whether it's Trump, the president, the vice president, you, him. I would never do it. And I'm a badass. I would never do it. So when he gets caught doing that, and if you look, there's A bunny trail. There's all kinds of trails. He's going to get slapped on the Wrist. He killed 15,000 people.

[Patrick]

I'm actually curious how do you feel about that? Because you killed 19. You, the number that you hear about, are you involved in 19. You clarified the last time. We did, yeah. So the 19 that you were involved in, you get 20 something years, right? You hear the stories. Your father 50, some 55 years total. His number's 40. Nobody knows a real number because Sonny doesn't seem like the type of person that would ever tell. Anybody would do that. But you see all these officials that get away with murder and hey, was a mistake we shouldn't have done. How do you process it yourself?

[Michael]

Gets away with anything. I'm not against some person stole like he says. Well, with taxes, didn't pay enough. I don't give a shit. It's none of my business. I don't care. But when you do things like that, you have no concern. It's not that I say I did a 20 year sentence, this guy's not going to do too. I'm not even worried about my son. I'm beyond that. He's not. He's 70. I'm 76. But I think of my daughter, my son, my grandchildren, great grandchildren who aren't even born are going to deal with shit like this.

[Karamo]

Hey, friends, it's Karamo. Talk show host, life coach and your next best friend. You just don't know it yet. I'm hosting a new podcast called start it on WhatsApp brotherhoods. We're going around the world to explore male friendships and all the wins, challenges and bonds that are made in WhatsApp group chats. And that's exactly where you can listen to it. Right in. The app is streaming on the official WhatsApp channel. Just open the app and go to the updates tab to start listening. While you're at it, message your best friend and make sure they listen too. I'll see you there.

[Narrator]

Coming up on Mafia States of America.

[Patrick]

They say you want to test someone's character, give it power.

[Sammy]

When you were in our life, if you abused your power, you didn't last. You got people in government that are 81 years old that have been abusing their power, okay, since the day they got into office.

[Michael]

I did it with the Teamsters, he did it with the guests. We did these things with using our power, with unions and so forth, and they're doing the same thing. It's not Michael Franchise or Sammy the Beau. It's the teachers Union.

[Legal Expert]

I unfortunately believe that from roughly the time that the pandemic broke, there's been the worst, most damaging assault on our civil rights and our constitutional rights ever in the history of this country.

[Poet/Singer]

Beautiful for spacious skies forever Waves of gray for purple mountain majesties above the fruited plane America, oh, beautiful Our heroes prove mercy more than life.