Mafia States of America | Episode 6 - "The Fall and the Faith"

Summary

Mafia States of America | Episode 6 – "The Fall and the Faith"

PBD Podcast | November 12, 2025

---

Episode Overview

In “The Fall and the Faith,” Patrick Bet-David and guests continue their deep dive into the history, downfall, and moral reckoning of the American Mafia from the inside out. The discussion, featuring former mob figures Michael Franzese, Sammy ‘the Bull’ Gravano, and John Alite, pivots around the societal, legal, and personal consequences of organized crime. The group debates causes of the Mafia’s decline, the roles of law enforcement and RICO laws, the normalization of criminality, personal responsibility, generational trauma, and parallels between organized crime and modern government corruption. The tone is candid and emotional, as participants grapple with their past decisions, the impact on their families, and the ineffectiveness and hypocrisy they perceive in the prison and political systems today.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Downfall of the Mob: Causes and Catalysts

• RICO Act & Legal Changes: Michael attributes the fall to laws like RICO (“when the government changed or leveled the playing field… we just couldn’t keep up with it.” – Michael, 01:23). He sees it as unconstitutional and overpowering traditional street codes.
  • Quote: “The fear of the government overpowered the fear that we had on the street, and as a result, a lot of guys went the other way, and you just couldn't overcome it.” — Michael (01:50)
• Prosecutorial Zeal: John suggests prosecutors like Giuliani “invent ways to... corrupt the law, to hurt these people.” (John, 02:17)

2. Ethics and Morality: Was It Ever Normal?

• Michael questions the normalization of Mafia life: “Is it normal for me to take an oath and say if my mother is sick and dying and this criminal organization calls me, that I'm... to go kill that person? That's not normal... I took an oath to do that. That's not normal, Sammy.” (Michael, 07:10)
• John concedes, “I can give you that in the word, that that's not normal… But there’s a lot of people out there... it creates these things and these issues and these problems.” (John, 07:35)
• Michael: "Two wrongs never make a right. And neither do 100 wrongs make a right. So you can't say, well, other people are doing it, so I'm doing it. It's still wrong what we were involved in." (08:06)

3. The Role of Family, Loyalty, and Generational Trauma

• The panel explores whether Mafia legacies are ever justified when they destroy families. Michael opens up about his father’s choices:
  • Quote: "I could give my father a lot of praise… But in my view, he also sacrificed my family. One of the reasons I walked away..." — Michael (13:51)
  • He details the human cost: "Your wife right now can't stand you because she blames you... Your son's a drug addict. Your daughter died of an overdose... Your two other daughters don't talk to you." — Michael (15:36)
• The idea of responsibility as a parent and as a member of an organization: "You marry somebody, you bring kids into this world… Cousin Oster comes before that? That's why it's abnormal" (Michael, 18:57)
• John counters by grounding this in the mindset of the older generation: “Maybe it was what he believed it so hard that he [was] willing to stay in prisons and everything.”

4. Criminal Justice: Hypocrisy, Racial Bias, and Profit

• Career Criminal Theory: Patrick discusses focusing law enforcement on “career criminals” to impact crime rates (Patrick, 09:22).
• Racial Inequality: Sammy and John agree black defendants get much harsher outcomes due to systemic disadvantages.
  • "They have the worst lawyers... the FBI. Common sense tells you they're dead. They're going to be victims. They can't beat these people." — John (33:31)
  • "The government will give a pass to a guy for 19 murders and they'll lock a guy up that did a drug deal and give him 10 years." — Michael (36:07)
• Prison as Business: Opened-up subject about profit and private prisons
  • “They even open up private prisons, make a ton of money to house us. Do you think they want us out? No.” — John (40:08)
• Rehabilitation vs. Punishment: Michael and John advocate for practical reform: teaching trades, reducing sentences, genuinely investing in rehabilitation.
  • "If you cared about your constituents, you would rehabilitate these people... most people can [be rehabilitated]." — Michael (41:04)
• Systemic Obstruction: The group expresses skepticism about real reform, suggesting politicians benefit from maintaining the status quo (Sammy, 43:55).

5. Legacy, Faith, and Finding Redemption

• Much of the conversation centers around whether people can truly change and what it means to “take responsibility.”
  • “I could admit that I was wrong with what I did, but for some reason, you want to justify it. There is no justification for any of this. Nothing.” — Michael (22:24)
• Michael expresses faith as his explanation for surviving and finding a meaningful life after crime: “That’s maybe why I believe in God. Because he had a different plan and a purpose for me. It’s been obvious over the past 25 years.” (19:08)
• John talks about surviving harsh prison conditions, specifically solitary: “I was six and a half years straight in the fucking hole... they want to break you, bro.” (49:49)
• Practical suggestion: Patrick and Michael’s argument that the system should focus more on actual rehabilitation in prisons, instead of decades-long sentences and labor with little payoff for inmates.

6. Notable Quotes & Memorable Exchanges

• On RICO and Law Enforcement:
  • “When you change the playing field to where you bring in a law like the RICO act, that's very hard to defend. To me, it's unconstitutional.” — Michael (01:30)
• On Intergenerational Patterns:
  • “There are a few people that are genetically inherently bad, evil even, but most people are shaped that way by circumstances.” — Patrick (25:44)
• On Government & Corruption:
  • “I've never seen as much corruption, so out in the open… that hurt people.” — Michael (38:57)
  • “Would it be fair to say that the government who took out the mob is starting to now act like the mob, going around bullying people because they can?” — Sammy (39:37)
  • “I would say that the FBI in the last couple of years is — I don't recognize it.” — Patrick (39:47)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:18] – Causes of the mob’s fall (law enforcement, RICO, prosecutors)
• [03:23] – Gritty story of the legal system’s leverage to make mobsters flip
• [06:54] – Are mobsters fundamentally criminals? Is that lifestyle ever normal?
• [08:06] – Michael’s “two wrongs” ethical argument
• [13:51] – The personal cost (Michael and father/family dynamics)
• [18:57] – Debate on family responsibility vs. Mafia loyalty
• [25:44] – Can upbringings change fate? Nature vs. nurture
• [33:12] – Racial bias in sentencing and legal outcomes
• [40:08] – Prison as industry; problem of privatization
• [41:04] – Models of rehabilitation, practical reform suggestions
• [46:44] – Politics, corruption, Trump’s attempted reforms
• [49:49] – The trauma and resilience of surviving solitary confinement

---

Conclusion

This episode of Mafia States of America offers a rare, inside-the-mafia perspective on the criminal justice system, family, and the ethics of law, crime, and punishment. The conversation is raw and at times emotional, as ex-mobsters and Patrick Bet-David weigh personal accountability against systems that sometimes seem as criminal as those they prosecute. The enduring question—can people and systems truly change—resonates as both caution and hope.

Transcript

[Narrator/Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Netflix from the creator of Homeland. Claire Danes and Matthew Rhys star in the new Netflix series the Beast in Me as ruthless rivals whose shared darkness will set them on a collision course with fatal consequences. The Beast in Me is a riveting psychological cat and mouse story about guilt, justice and doubt. You will not want to miss this. The Beast In Me launches November 13th only on Netflix.

[Stitch Fix Advertiser]

Shopping is hard, right? But I found a better way. Stitch fix online Personal styling makes it easy. I just give my stylist my size, style and budget preferences. I order boxes when I want and how I want. No subscription required. And he sends just for me pieces, plus outfit recommendations and styling tips. I keep what works and send back the rest. It's so easy. Make style easy. Get started [e-mail] Spotify. That's stitchfix.com Spotify.

[Interviewer/Host]

Previously on Mafia States of America.

[Sammy]

What caused the fall of the mob? Was it Pistone? Was it Giuliani? Was it Valachi?

[Michael]

Mid-80s racketeering law, when the government changed or leveled the playing field to a degree that we just couldn't keep up with it. Guy gets convicted, he gets 10 years, 15 years, he makes parole, he does seven, eight, nine. Anybody can do that kind of time. When you change the playing field to where you bring in a law like the RICO act, that's very hard to defend. To me, it's unconstitutional. The fear of the government overpowered the fear that we had on the street, and as a result, a lot of guys went the other way, and you just couldn't overcome it.

[Patrick]

Like any other great organization, they were, from their point of view, they were fortunate to have Luciano and Lansky. One financial genius, the other one kind of an organizational genius, put together a structure that was better than anybody else. And if you follow their rules, they might still be.

[John]

Rudy was another guy. You know these guys again, you're a prosecutor. Someone brings you a case, so be it. He takes the law and he invents ways to like. He says it's unconstitutional to corrupt the law, to hurt these people.

[Chorus/Singer]

America speak America.

[John]

Me.

[Chorus/Singer]

To sh.

[Interviewer/Host]

I had a friend, Phil Folia, my best friend. I was his best man. He was my best man at our weddings. One of the great men I've ever met in my whole life. Probably the greatest man, other than my father, of course. But Phil was a da, Worked with Rudy Giuliani. One time a guy went in his office and they were trying to get him this guy. That Mafia got a flip. Well, he leaned back in his chair and said, well, I gotta think about it, Phil. I want to think about my future. And Phil said, your future? He stood up, walked over to him, grabbed him by his elbow, brought him over to the big window and said, do you see that sun? Look at that sun. Make a mental picture of it, because the next time you're going to see that sun is the year 2040. Now get the fuck out of here. Ten minutes later, he came back and he sang like Pavarotti. He told them everything because he knew he wasn't about to go away for 40, 50 years, pal.

[Sammy]

The other day, I'm at the Ferrari dealership. I'm about to get a call. My son's with me. Guy pulls me aside and says, hey. He said, I love your interviews. I said, cool. He says, you know, Sammy bought my wife a gift 30 years ago. I said, oh, great. He says, so you're working on anything right now? I'm working on something big. Right. I said, why are those guys so close to you? Why do those guys trust you? Are you in the life? I said, I'm just the guy that's interviewing. Right. So there is risk for me, but my risk isn't doing this. Because I'm enamored. I'm, like, fascinated by what if one day I'm made, man? What I'm enamored by is, was there ever a moment where Sammy could have flipped to, gone and lived a good life? Could we have ever prevented a Sammy from happening? Could we have ever prevented a Michael from happening? Could that have been prevented? That's my fascination. My fascination is now with the life of, oh, it's so cool. They kill people. I don't think that part's cool. So the law and order is the only difference when you make that argument, I go back and process it. Military's law and order. I'm following my command. And you don't have the law to go out there and say, hey, everybody does it.

[Patrick]

Not everybody does it.

[John]

But who makes these laws?

[Sammy]

Politicians do.

[John]

Yeah. So they make a law they'll make, and we all know it. They'll make some excuse to attack a government, to attack a country, whatever. Which reason. In some countries, there's really not even a reason anymore. And we attack people and kill them in droves. So they made those laws and that makes it legit. In God's eyes. We were talking about in God's eyes. You don't think God knows that that's all fake and phony and bullshit, those laws?

[Sammy]

I understand what you're Saying, but you have the ability to want to go into office and want to amend some of those laws if you really wanted to change some of them. That's the, that's, that's part.

[John]

I'll be a congressman or senator.

[Sammy]

No, what I'm saying, maybe I'll run for governor if it really mattered to an individual. The system is set up. I've lived in Iran and I lived in Iran 10 years. Okay? We couldn't go around telling people we're Christians. We couldn't do it. We were taught. Somebody asked you what religion you are, you say, ask my parents. I don't know that we couldn't really feel that free. This is what your parents are telling. The point I'm saying to you is there was no law and order. It meant nothing. What protects Americans to freely see, no.

[John]

There is law and order, even in Iran. But it's there. A man made law and order. It's their order. It's not here because you can come here.

[Michael]

What are we trying to say? I don't want to look, Sammy, were we criminals? Yes or no?

[John]

Without a doubt.

[Michael]

Okay. Is that normal to be a criminal?

[John]

No, not really.

[Michael]

Is it normal for me to take an oath and say if my mother is sick and dying and this criminal organization calls me, that I'm a part of, to go kill somebody, I'm supposed to leave my mother's side, go and kill that person? Is that normal? I took an oath to do that. That's not normal. It's not normal, Sammy.

[John]

I can give you that in the word, that that's not normal. But there's a lot of people out there all over the planet, different countries, like we're starting to talk about different countries, that it creates these things and these issues and these problems. So to pick out or find a different thing and blame the whole thing on that particular item. There's so many groups, so many things, there's so many crimes within law and order.

[Michael]

My dad told me one thing a long time ago, and I think you'll agree two wrongs never make a right. So. And neither do 100 wrongs make a right. So you can't say, well, other people are doing it, so I'm doing it. It's still wrong what we were involved in.

[John]

And this is not wrong. When there is a hundred wrongs.

[Michael]

There's a lot of guys in that life that I loved. I'm not talking about these guys, but all of us were abnormal being part of that life, it wasn't normal. We didn't Think the right way when somebody tells you you got to go kill this guy. I don't even know this guy. What are I going to. Well, you don't have to know what happened. Go kill him. What did he do? Never mind. Just go kill him. Okay? That's not normal, Sammy.

[John]

It's not normal because you don't understand the beginning of Gosa Nostra, how this thing even started, and what it was.

[Michael]

Sami, I don't care if it started 100 years ago. I'm not smirking at you. I don't care if it started 100 years ago or yesterday. It's not normal to you.

[John]

It's not normal. It's not good. Then keep that in your mind. It's not normal, but yet you'll break that not normal to defend and go kill somebody who fucked with your family.

[Patrick]

Think of a career criminal this way. Think of a. Think of a burglar if he's in jail for four years, you just saved yourself probably a thousand burglaries. That just don't happen every day. He's on the street, he's going to commit a burglary. So you've got to concentrate your law enforcement efforts on career criminals. The crimes are not committed by everybody. Crimes are committed by far fewer people than you think. And James Q. Wilson, the professor from Harvard who came up with the broken windows theory, also came up with the theory of the career criminal. You gotta find the right guy and put him in prison, and boom, you can bring the crime rates down. Doesn't mean everybody. It means the guy who's the recidivist, the guy who is gonna get arrested 70 times for banging little old ladies in the head. And right now, there's no right now. It's completely chaotic. It's the desire to make criminals feel good.

[Sammy]

Sam, you're looking at it from the outside, from my lens, purely my lens. And I've studied both of you a lot, and I've done my best to study your life a lot. A lot of different characters. We as individuals have a tendency. We all live our lives, especially men who have big egos. And we have pride. I would consider myself one. We've done a lot of stupid things. We made mistakes. Now, some is taking a life. Some is personal. Some is breaking someone's heart. Some is a lot. We've all done stuff that we can sit back and say, you know, I screwed up at this time. And it's very easy as a person who's a great salesperson, persuader, to justify why. What I Did at that time was the right thing to do. Do you find yourself trying to justify yourself so you can live with Sammy the rest of your life? Is that what you do? For you to say, I didn't do anything wrong, it's normal. That was part of my life. It's very normal.

[John]

If I thought it was out now normal, I would be doing it every day of the week right now. I've changed my life. It's not normal. I give you that it's not normal lifestyle. So I'm out of that lifestyle. And I don't kill, I don't do anything illegitimate. Part of my thing is I don't want to go back to prison. I don't want prison is in a normal fucking place. So I get normalcy with people around me. My family, things I'm doing, I use goes to an ox every day of the week. In my own thoughts, business wise. I look at a business, I talk to business people. And the guy's got a Harvard degree. And I'm listening to him talk, he doesn't even know what the fuck planet is on.

[Sammy]

I'm just asking, you know, some things we've done in our lives.

[John]

You know, we're talking sermon here now.

[Sammy]

No, I'm not.

[John]

You're gonna make me become what?

[Sammy]

No, I'm not. Zero. I have zero intention of making you do anything. It's just. Do you ever find yourself trying to justify certain things, you know, in the past?

[John]

No, I don't justify certain things. I don't justify it. It was a way of life. And what I did at that particular time, I did at that time. I don't make it normal. I don't make it right. It's what it was.

[Michael]

Can I ask you a question? Yeah, sure, I'll ask one. Are you sorry for the things that you did in that life?

[John]

Some of them. Sure, some of them. And I think there was a lot of them, like I said, with the story with Louise, that are unjust. They're unjust. Even in our terms, they're unjust. And those things like Carmine did, or these scheming things, those are abnormal. Completely. Those are just devils. Roy DeMaio and these type of people, I'm totally against it. But people who got orders and came into this life as kids were trained or schooled a certain way. Blacks that grow up in ghettos, what do we hate them all because they did some crimes? They come out of fucking neighborhoods. That's all they know. So at some point they change their life. At some point, something Else happens. Maybe an intervention should go back then. Where you help them to get out of that life.

[Michael]

To get out of an abnormal life.

[John]

Exactly. Basically, yeah. But it's not there for a lot of people, a lot of situations. It's not there.

[Michael]

Listen, I could sit here and tell you I could give my father a lot of praise for what he did. But in my view, he also sacrificed my family. One of the reasons I walked away, because I said, dad, I'm not putting my family through what our family went through. Because you didn't want to walk away from that life. I would never want him to be a snitch or a cooperator or anything else. But dad, you had every reason to walk away. You got lifetime parole, you can't be involved with anybody. You got violated five times. So forget that right now. Nobody's going to talk about you because you lived the life the way you were supposed to live, according to the streets. So go take care of our family now. And he couldn't do it because it was more important to him. Was more important to him. His legacy in that life. And so for me, I don't want to do that, dad.

[John]

So Your father was 90 something years old, so you want to flip his legacy, right? Maybe it was a legacy then. Maybe it was what? He believed it so hard that he willing to stay in prisons and everything. So he's wrong. He said he's crazy.

[Michael]

No, he's wrong. I didn't say he was crazy.

[John]

He's wrong. Then why would he do it? He's protecting what he was, what he lived for. So you wouldn't. Why? No. What, what are you, all your life that you can't even look in the fucking mirror or talk to people and say, I did a lot of harm, I did a lot of things. But that's me, that's behind me. It's not me now. It's behind me. And you can't go forward. Who? But you're saying he can't go forward. In other words, he wants to be able to live his. He lived his life, he lived his Legacy. He's almost 100 years old. He knows he's short period of time. So what is he supposed to say? I'm abnormal my whole life?

[Michael]

No, I don't know where you're coming from. What he's supposed to say is, okay, after maybe three violations and the fact that he can't meet anybody, he went back five times for association. So wait, wait, wait. Your wife right now can't stand you because she blames you for everything that went wrong in her life because she's been without you for 33 years. Your son's a drug addict. Your daughter died of an overdose of drugs. Your younger sister. Your younger daughter rather died of cancer. She was a basket case. Your two other daughters don't talk to you. Okay? So why don't you just say, let me leave that behind and let me try to take care of my family.

[John]

And so all that thing that happened, all those people, all that, that's his fault?

[Michael]

Well, who should.

[Sammy]

Are you asking.

[Michael]

Who should take responsibility?

[John]

Let me ask you this. It's all his. It's all his fault.

[Michael]

You know what, Sammy? You have to take responsibility. You're the man of the house or that's your family. You brought these kids into the world. No, that's not the point. But if you weren't a father anymore, you were away. You brought kids into the world and. And you went your own separate way. And you could have got out of it because my dad got out of jail each time in time to save this family.

[Experian Advertiser]

It's okay not to be perfect with finances. Experian is your big financial friend and here to help. Did you know you can get matched with credit cards on the app? Some cards are labeled no Ding Decline, which means if you're not approved, they won't hurt your credit scores. Download the Experian app for free today. Applying for no Ding Decline cards won't hurt your credit scores if you aren't initially approved. Initial approval will result in a hard inquiry which may impact your credit scores.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Experian.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online, and more personal info in more places that could expose you more to identity theft. But LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our US Based Restoration specialists will fix it, guaranteed your money back. Don't face drained accounts, fraudulent loans or financial losses alone. Get more holiday fun and less holiday worry with Lifelock. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply.

[John]

I'm sure your dad didn't get out of prison. Tried to get out of prison and do something. There's always somebody there. Your brother testified against him, wore a wire against him.

[Michael]

You want to also put him away? My brother. I hadn't seen my brother in 14 years. I just saw him at my birthday party last week. My brother couldn't stand my father, couldn't stand my mother. I couldn't stand my brother for testifying against my father. But after speaking to him for the first time in 14 years. I said, you know what, Michael?

[Patrick]

You're wrong.

[Michael]

I'm not saying he should have testified. I said, john, you shouldn't have done that. But I understand what happened to you. I was in that house. I saw what happened. You have no idea what went on in our house.

[John]

And I'm just. Happens in a lot of different houses. Okay, but you.

[Michael]

But when you're the man of the house and you take responsibility for that.

[John]

Came in and wore a wire.

[Michael]

My brother was a junkie. You know what the hell he was doing.

[John]

But. But in your eyes, what you were explaining. Most of this is your father's fault.

[Michael]

A lot of it is. When you walk away, you got to take responsibility for your family, Sammy. That comes first.

[John]

You bring a. You.

[Michael]

You marry somebody. You bring kids into this world. That's not your first. You mean to tell me. You mean to tell me Cousin Oster comes before that? That's why it's abnormal?

[John]

No, no, no.

[Michael]

Yes, it did.

[John]

That's what it did at that point.

[Michael]

That's right. That's not normal. And it did for my father his whole life until he died at 103. His whole life. So his family went to hell. I don't know how I got out of it. I don't even know. I can't even explain myself. I'm the only one that managed to get out of that mess. I don't know why. That's maybe why I believe in God. Because he had a different plan and a purpose for me. It's been obvious over the past 25 years. Because I don't know why I am where I am. Other than that. That's my explanation. People can knock me to listen. Let me tell you something. You're a Christian. You're going to get knocked all the time. It's normal. Jesus told us that. Not a big deal. We're going to take the weight. You're a Jew. Same thing. You're going to get knocked all the time. We understand that. That's okay. But you cannot tell me. And I love my father. I lived for that man until he died. I love my dad. But he was wrong. Sammy. You don't destroy your. You don't allow your family to be destroyed because you took an oath and you want to go down and die with your boots on. Say Sonny Francis never opened his mouth. Okay.

[Experian Advertiser]

Great.

[Michael]

Now let's go look at his family. It's wrong, Sammy. It's wrong.

[John]

I don't know. I really don't know.

[Michael]

I don't know why you wouldn't agree with me at that point.

[John]

Well, I'll tell you the truth. I hope my daughter and my son don't think like you, but they hate me because I don't hate.

[Michael]

I just said I love my father.

[John]

I don't.

[Michael]

I love my father. My father did a lot of good for me.

[John]

Love to me, bro.

[Michael]

You know what, Sammy? You hold people accountable whether you love them or not. I love my brother. I don't agree with him being a drug addict. I love my sister.

[John]

Back in your house.

[Michael]

That's right. It's my brother. I don't care what he did at this point. It's my brother. It's my family. It's my blood. I don't care what he did. And he had. Maybe he had a reason. You had a reason for what you did?

[John]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Okay, so should your family hate you.

[John]

For what you did, Wiring up.

[Michael]

Sammy, Sammy, don't compare. My brother was a junkie, bro. Don't compare what my brother did, so.

[John]

Don'T bring him in the mix.

[Patrick]

Why?

[Michael]

Why not? We're having a discussion. I'm telling you.

[John]

Turn around and say he was a junkie.

[Michael]

He was.

[John]

So if I'm a junkie, everything's cool?

[Michael]

No, I just said I. You were wrong with what you did, John. I could admit that I was wrong with what I did, but for some reason, you want to justify it. There is no justification for any. There's no justification for any of this. Nothing. All we try to do is make ourselves feel. I had a reason for doing this. I had a reason for doing that. I could say the same thing. I got into that life to help my father, which I did. So what? You got into a bad life. You took an oath. You weren't a drug addict. You knew exactly what you were doing. I knew exactly what I was doing when I said if I need to kill somebody, I. I'll do it, even if I don't know him. That's not normal, Sammy. And I'll take responsibility for that, okay?

[John]

I'll take responsibility. What do you mean you'll take responsibility? For who? For what? What do you mean you're gonna take responsibility for that, Sammy?

[Michael]

Let me tell you something. I defrauded the government out of tax on every gallon of gasoline. Hundreds of millions of dollars. I took a plea. I went to prison. I took responsibility for it, all right?

[John]

That's taking responsibility.

[Michael]

What am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to do? Commit suicide?

[John]

No, no, no, no. Not commit suicide.

[Michael]

So what are you supposed to do?

[John]

You did what you did. You went to jail, you came out, you changed your life. You did your life. Don't go whining about what you did.

[Michael]

I'm not whining, Sammy.

[John]

I'm not whining.

[Michael]

Don't. Don't put that on me.

[John]

You know what your father did you. Not what your father did. Yeah, that he stood up.

[Michael]

I have every right. You don't have every right to do that.

[John]

You don't have every right to die with a. Some sort of legacy.

[Michael]

Whatever his thinking was, you don't have a right to. To throw your family to. No, you don't.

[John]

He didn't throw nobody.

[Michael]

Yes, he did. As far as I'm concerned, he did. And I told you that I still love my dad. But you got to be held accountable for what you did in this life.

[John]

You get 15 years in prison. This poor bastard. And, and, and he threw his in and he did all this thing.

[Michael]

Sam. You weren't in my house. I know what happened.

[John]

I'm in a lot of houses.

[Michael]

You weren't in my house.

[John]

No, not in your house. I've been in across the board in bad houses all over the country.

[Michael]

You weren't in my house.

[John]

No, Mayor, I wasn't in your house. Okay?

[Michael]

So I know what happened in that house. And I asked my father, I said, dad, what do you need this for? Family's falling apart. I said, you went in jail. Nobody gave you two cents. Nobody gave you two cents. If we didn't go break our ass turn money, who gave you a penny? Nobody gave us one quarter. As a matter of fact, when you come out of jail, they broke you. They broke you for standing up. That wasn't embarrassing. It was my dad. You know what? My dad didn't want to get me mad, so he said, no, don't worry about it. This life is a wheel. It'll turn around. He gave me all that philosophy, which was true. Okay, not to get me upset at the time, but that doesn't mean I don't know what happened. So what are you doing, dad? Your family's going to hell and, and you just don't want to be. You want to be known as the most stand up guy in the world?

[John]

Great.

[Michael]

Well, that's his legacy, you know. So at 103 years old, he died. Nobody even went to his funeral. So what did you accomplish? Okay, so they're writing about you now. Your wife couldn't stand you when she died. Your son couldn't care if you died or not. Okay, my sister, they don't have a say in it because they're already dead. So, I mean, I don't get it.

[John]

I don't get.

[Michael]

I don't. I don't see how we justify that anymore.

[John]

I'm not justifying it at all. I'm not justifying your problem, your situation.

[Michael]

It's not my problem, Sammy. It is reality. It's not my problem.

[John]

It's not your reality. There's a lot of people. There's a lot of people who may look at it slightly better.

[Michael]

Tell me. Let me ask you this. Tell me one person that you know whose family survived and went on to live a wonderful life in the last 30 years when the government really can. Tell me who. You want to go to Persico, you want to go Colombo, you want to go to Scotty?

[Experian Advertiser]

Tell me.

[Michael]

Anybody.

[John]

Tado. There's 100 guys who. There's hundreds of them died of old age without going to prison, haven't done.

[Michael]

In the last 40 years. I don't think so, Sammy.

[John]

No.

[Sammy]

Do you think if a. Sammy, if a Michael, if a Frank, if a Leonetti had your parenting and your upbringing, meaning your parents, your mom and dad, do you think they would have gone straight, or do you think it's in them to say, no, I'm still going to go do the shortcut?

[Interviewer/Host]

What do you think?

[Patrick]

It's a little hard to say about the people you don't know. So let me tell you about Michael, because I know Michael the best. There's no doubt that if Michael had the right direction and the right parenting, he'd have been a very successful, legitimate, something important. He's a very smart guy, very shrewd guy, in a good way, decent guy, respected his father, which is a good thing, except it was a wrong father to respect. Right. And I'm going to guess on the others just what I know of. I think there are a few people that are genetically inherently bad, evil even, but most people are shaped that way by circumstances. I think I could have gone the other way if my parents kept me in Brooklyn. And I was a tough kid. I, as you said, was argumentative. My father taught me how to box, so I wasn't afraid to get into fights. And I mean, I hope I wouldn't have. I hope something else would have stopped me, but there's a chance I could have gone in the other direction. So when I prosecuted people, it was always a sense of empathy for them.

[Sammy]

How about Sammy?

[Patrick]

Don't know.

[Sammy]

Okay.

[Patrick]

Don't know.

[Michael]

Don't know.

[Patrick]

Very few of them, very Few of them are like that. Gotti was a guy who liked killing. There's something sinister and sadistic about John.

[Michael]

You believe that.

[Sammy]

I know that it's a different Sammy today than two and a half years ago. But I still think you, to the core, there's a part of you that feels the only time you cooperated was against John. I think to the core you believe you're stuck to your guns and you relate more to a Sonny than you do to Michael. Sonny and Michael. I think you don't relate to Michael. I think you relate to Sonny.

[John]

No, that's not true.

[Sammy]

I think in your eyes, you.

[John]

No, that's not true.

[Sammy]

You defend La Cosa Nostra more than he defends La Co. You don't think you defended more than he does?

[John]

No, no, I defended maybe more than. I don't know, maybe, maybe. I look at him as a changed man and doing the right thing. I like, I don't dislike him getting like him more and more, but I just can't find it in my heart to go against people because they broke the law. Like Sonny, when he believed in something with all his heart and soul, was willing to die with it. I can't strip him of what he felt and what he was and what he wanted and life. Or say he's wrong or he's nuts or anything. I'm not saying he's saying that, but I'm saying that. So I defend that. I defend people who. In prisons. I did prison. I lived in prisons 22 years. I bumped into so many guys, white guys, black guys, Hispanic guys that could be out in the street and they did crimes left their mind. It is so brutal to keep them there. Frankie Locasio's 87, I think, or maybe even 88 right now he's in prison since 1990. 31 or 32 fucking years. When is enough enough with judges who beget this obsession? And then they'll get somebody. Now nowadays, they got the COVID well, let's give them a compassionate release. Child molesters, rapists are doing less time than some of these people are doing. So I can't. It's. The whole system bothers me. And every time I see something like that or I hear something like that just bothers the fuck out of me that I want to defend it. It's not so much I want to defend Rosa Nostra beyond words, but I just feel for it. I feel for people now. My father, thank God, and my mother, nobody was in the mom. My family, they were good, hard working people. There's politicians who go out and they're hurting all kinds of people.

[Sammy]

I don't think people would disagree.

[John]

Yeah. So I.

[Sammy]

Well, and by the way, I don't think. I don't think anybody says, you know, there's lack of respect for Sonny for not, you know, wanting to cooperate. I think it's more personal to him as a son experiencing that. Emotional. Slightly different.

[Michael]

Yeah. I never suggested I wanted him to cooperate. I don't. He wouldn't do it. I wouldn't even suggest that. All I'm saying is that, you know, there's a point in time where your loyalty to your family has to make.

[John]

Now, I'm not saying I'm sure he can have. He loved his family.

[Michael]

Listen, I'm not saying my dad loved his family. There's no doubt he loved me. Loved him. He loved. But he didn't do the right thing with our family. That's all.

[John]

Okay, but as long as he loved you and he may have made mistakes along the way, maybe he didn't take care of his family like you would have liked him to do or other people would have liked him to do. But I just. I can't find it in my heart to go against these people who believed in things and I don't know that they did something completely disgusting like a Roy Demang.

[Michael]

Well, listen, my dad. I hated the system because even if my dad was a bank robber, 50 years, my dad didn't get sentenced for bank rob. He got sentenced for. For being Sonny Francis, Mafia. That's why he got sentenced to 50 years. It was unheard of at that time.

[John]

Absolutely unheard of.

[Michael]

But so. And everything you said about the system, I agree with you 1,000%.

[Patrick]

Well, that part of the system has always been the case. I mean, you sort of. You sort of went up in your mafia standing. If you went to prison and you could take it, first of all, it was a sign that you could take it and you're not going to squeal. Second, it was a sign that you could. They get to know you in prison. They ran some of the prisons, so that was that they could bond in prison and they could develop other kinds of crimes in prison. It was a good time for planning. It's absurd to think of it that way. So in that sense, it was a more sophisticated use of prison than now, where they become like vicious gangs. But it did move them ahead in the, in the, the succession ranks. What I don't like about now is, first of all, particularly in the last couple of years, we don't punish criminals. I mean, we have in New York, we have no bail. So 75% of the people that commit crimes, getting pretty close to serious crimes, just go right back out on the street in 12 hours. We find every excuse to parole people early. That's how you see people with, what was there a guy with 50 convictions who just banged some woman in the head, knocked her to the ground and kicked her? What's this guy doing out on the.

[Sammy]

Street when you were getting locked up, if that Sammy was black, would you have been still doing life today, or would you have been treated any differently than the way you were treated?

[John]

I'll tell. I don't know if I would have been treated. I'm sincere, I'm considered part black. But I'm going to tell you one thing.

[Michael]

I'm surprised you admit that.

[John]

Well, you know, I'll tell you something.

[Sammy]

That movie was True romance with Christopher Walken. When he does that whole scene with.

[John]

Yeah, yes, Sicilian, you got some black blood. So. But anyway, I was with a ton of black people. I got 22 years in prisons. They have the worst lawyers. They're broke, the worst investigators you can get, and they're fighting the government. The government has the best lawyers you can get. Who's their investigators? The FBI. Common sense tells you they're dead. They're going to be victims. They can't beat these people. People. And when black guys would ask me, say, what do you think, bro? Who's your lawyer? Who's your investigators? They would tell me, take a plea. You're not going to win. I didn't even know if they could win or not. But odds are you're going to lose. And odds are you're going to get a very stiff penalty. So I think prison reform should look into those things. We, the Italians, inherited the RICO law. It was made for us. Nobody cared because it was just about Italians. But it spread. They care now. It went to black organizations, Hispanics went to corporate America. It went to corporate America. I don't understand how some of these politicians, they don't use that same RICO law against them. The enterprise is the government. You use that along with a few other people. That's rico. But they don't use it against them. I was with a lot of guys in prison in the 22 years. Some of them deserve to be there and stay. For the crimes I committed, I. I deserve a lot longer sentence on my first case than I got. I didn't kill 19 people. I was involved in 19 murders. There's a little Bit of a difference. Maybe not much, but as soon as I cooperated, Brodin loved me. I got five years on the first case. Something's wrong with that scenario 100%. I think Michael talked on an interview. This guy's got 19 murders. How did they just let him out? They let you out when they want to let you out. They hold you when you want to get held. And black people don't have that influence or that power.

[Michael]

Well, most of the time they have a public defender that tells them take a plea.

[John]

Right.

[Michael]

They don't want to go to trial. They tell you to take a plea. So you agree with them 100%. Everything he said 100% and not. He just said it. So I'm only repeating. The government will give a pass to a guy for 19 murders and they'll lock a guy up that did a drug deal and give him 10 years.

[John]

Well, John got in and actually do a drug deal.

[Michael]

No, I wasn't referring to anybody.

[John]

Anybody.

[Michael]

You know what I mean? So the system is so out of whack. If the government wants you, they'll do anything.

[John]

They'll give you anything. And then added to this, you get a good lawyer, sharp lawyer, and you beat the case. What does the government do? They're so vindictive that they'll go back to Congress and change a law to make it foolproof. So as time goes by, people don't have a chance to even fight a case. Then you put on witnesses. They'll put on witnesses on the case. Sometimes they're just out and out lying.

[Sammy]

Over 4,100 convictions. Eight, I believe, over 100 years that you went through. You sympathize with all the 4,100. You sympathize?

[Patrick]

Oh, sure. Some of them, yes. Some of them, I can see, made terrible mistakes. And you wish you didn't have to do it. I mean, they're not all. I mean, criminals are not. They're not one criminal. They're all different human beings. And some of them become criminals for reasons that you do. Say for the grace of God go I. Some of them become criminals, and you say, well, I'd never be like that. But they're very, very different. And the Mafia is exactly that. I mean, from listening to those tapes, you've got people that would otherwise be very normal people to people that are complete psychopathic maniacs. And Michael's an interesting. My Francis is an interesting example. Example. You know, they always say a lot of these Mafia guys could have really accomplished a lot if they'd only Gone straight. That's half true and half not true. Some of them are complete morons. But Michael is a guy. You can see it. You can see. Well, he has gone far since he's gone straight. So that some of it was a product of its times. And a lot of it is exactly what you say, Patrick. It's the influence of the parent. There were mafia guys who wanted to get their families out. Some succeeded, some didn't. In the case of Michael's father, where I would fault him for it, there seems to have been no desire to get Michael out. I can even see if there was a desire to do it. They attempted to do it and they didn't succeed. There seems to have been no attempt. But there are mafia families. Not now into another generation. Perfectly legitimate people.

[Michael]

The system of government that we have today and to me, in my lifetime, I've never seen as much corruption, and that's a lot to say. In my 70 years, I've never seen as much corruption so out in the open. I never seen people that are on tape one day saying one thing, the next day lying about it, the day after that lying again and getting away with it out and out. Lies that hurt people. Not that you're just lying. They're hurting people.

[John]

And let me add to that. He's got 70 years. I got another six years old for him, and I agree with him. I've never seen anything like it. It's incredible.

[Sammy]

Would it be fair to say that the government who took out the mobile is starting to now act like the mob, going around bullying people because they can?

[Patrick]

Unfortunately, I would say that the FBI in the last couple of years is. I don't recognize it. They really should. If they can have an office that develops these warrants for the FBI and presents it to a judge, they should have another office whose job it is to critically analyze them and point out the things that are missing.

[John]

You know, go back to what I said before. What is prison? It's money for people. They even open up private prisons. And some heavyweights open these prisons, make a ton of money to house us. Do you think they want us out? No.

[Michael]

No. Patrick, I spoke in a couple of Years back on 9 11, I spoke in front of the Senate staff, and a couple of senators were in there, and they asked me about prison reform. And I turned to one of them. I don't want to mention his name. And I said, do you care about your constituents? He said, of course I do. In your community? Of course I do. I said, well, why would you Put people in prison that are around other prisoners, they learn nothing in there. Not rehabilitate them in some cases, make them more hardened in there and then let them come out and go back into the same community. Expect them to be law abiding citizens.

[Sammy]

It's a training ground.

[Michael]

Yeah, I said if you cared about your constituents, you would rehabilitate these people. Because what people don't understand, I think being in prison is the punishment. You're not supposed to punish people more in prison unless they're unruly, they're a danger to themselves or to somebody else. People like that, some of them just can't be rehabilitated. But for the most part, most people can. In my experience in prison, most people want to do something, to do something better when they get out, but we don't believe in that. I think now I'm just starting to hear about it.

[Sammy]

What would you propose? How would you do it?

[Michael]

Let people learn trades in there. First of all, they give too much time out in this country. It's ridiculous. We're the only country in the world. They give too much time out. How do you give a guy 300 years? It's ridiculous. How do you give a guy 40, 50 years in prison for even for bank robbery when nobody got killed, nobody got hurt, he robbed the bank. It's a money crime. Do you know that you're better off today killing somebody than robbing the government or defrauding some. You get more time in the federal system, okay, for fraud, than you do in many state systems for violent crimes.

[John]

I'll go one step further and he's right. Guys who come out of prison don't have 2 cents, most of them. Some of them have family who will help them. That's great, that's their shot. They don't have any. They're a convicted felon. They don't have any opportunity. They can't become go to college in certain cases. They can't become doctors, they can't become lawyers, they can't become a fucking dentist. What do you want this guy to do? And he's maybe let's say a drug guy who dealt drugs, who's making 10, 15, 20,000 a week or a month or whatever you want to call it. So you don't want this guy after doing time to come out and go flip fucking hamburgers for minimum wage. And you don't think he's going to recommit. There's so many things. Now, there used to be when I was in prison that they taught you how to make clothing. They would give it to the military. Or you made jeans. Certain places made certain things. Furniture, all kinds of things. And they were getting. I think it was $3 an hour that got shut down because companies on the outside said, we can't compete with those wages. So they shut it down. It's not about competing with the wage. Give it to the military. Give it to somebody.

[Michael]

Government helping the government.

[John]

And you're helping society. Because now this guy comes out with a trade.

[Michael]

The government gives a sweetheart contract to somebody. They make a few bucks and the government overpays. That's what they'd rather do rather than do it the right way.

[John]

The whole system is.

[Sammy]

But you do believe it can be fixed? You do believe there are things that can be done to be fixed?

[John]

If somebody had. Yeah.

[Sammy]

Or is it a business model that they don't want to get away from? Maybe this is a better question to ask. Who doesn't want it to be fixed?

[John]

The people who are making money on it.

[Sammy]

Who's making money on it?

[John]

Politicians. How. How about the federal unions? How many people they hire and bring in and jobs and in every. In every way, shape or form they make money off?

[Michael]

What does it cost taxpayers to house one inmate for a year?

[Sammy]

Was it 52,000?

[Michael]

Some big intention, you know, Let me.

[John]

Give you one more statistic that I heard on a long time ago, okay? I don't know how many people are in prison today, but when I looked at this, I think there was close to 2 million prisoners in this country.

[Michael]

Two and a half now.

[John]

Two and a half now. All right?

[Michael]

Prisons are a branch of the government, okay? They put people to work. They build more prisons.

[Sammy]

It's.

[Michael]

It's economic. Look, you don't have the smartest people in the world running the government. They don't think like you. I can make money at a different place. And. And aside from that, they're making people believe they're smart. They're hard. They're law and order people. They're hard on crime, and they're building these prisons.

[John]

Me and you are that now. And we have this little scam with the prisons. We bodied Greek. Patrick's a pretty smart guy. He don't know. How do we. How do they make your money? That's how we get off. He don't even know how to. We make money.

[Michael]

Yeah, he doesn't.

[John]

And he's a smart guy.

[Michael]

Because you're fixing. You're thinking of better ways to make money. Do you think the federal government has your mentality? No, Patrick, I Wish they did. We'd have a lot better place, you know, a lot better system in place.

[Sammy]

Black Lives Matter says this, Democrats say this, Republicans say this, Independents say this. Anybody and everybody that campaigns says prison reform. I don't know a political party that doesn't say prison reform. Every one of them is saying it. So why don't we have it?

[Michael]

Why don't they do it?

[John]

Because they, they could say everything, like we said before. They say everything you want to hear that makes sense, but they have no intention of ever doing it. They have no intention. Here's another thing that Trump destroyed. He destroyed himself. All of these little scams in the government, he was smart enough to know about them and he tried to with the whole system and the system ate him up. He tried to expose what they were doing. Fake media, this, that. You heard him all the time. He got rid of all of those things, rules and regulations and stuff. He knew what was wrong with the country. He's a pretty smart guy. He was in business. He knows what was wrong. And he attacked all of those things are making money for people and they destroy them.

[Patrick]

It's a little bit like what you, what you were saying about all these things where they take something good and they ruin it by doing it too much. You know, they. Even certain kinds of crimes at a certain level, if there's a little cheating, nobody minds. All of a sudden you get into Madoff, Wow. And then you crack down on everything. The last time we let crime go up, which was in the late 60s, murder went over a thousand for the first time. I think in 1969, it didn't go below 1000 until 1976, which is why if we don't get control of it right now, it's going to get control of us.

[Sammy]

And you're saying to make it even stricter, you're saying we're not. Our punishment right now is not strict enough, you're saying, to be even worse than what it is today. That's the solution.

[Patrick]

We took criminals out on the street. The people who are committing the crimes now are people that when I was mayor, was sitting in jail for four and five years. Now they, now they sit in jail for eight months.

[John]

I was six and a half years straight in the fucking hole. And I did a lot of things, thinking and reading and everything too. They must have did 8 billion push ups. I'm 76, I'm still in good shape.

[Michael]

Thanks to that, to put that, put that time. I gotta tell you something, I learned through that experience. We weren't meant to be solo, Creed. We were meant to be social. And to do that kind of time in solitary, you gotta have a very strong constitution to come out of that.

[John]

When you violent in prison, killing people, you're beating people up and they lose control of you, that's where you go. When I went in prison, I was in there almost immediately. I didn't do. I didn't even have a fight yet.

[Michael]

No, you don't belong at all. It's just like I was in there for administrative detention, whatever that meant. I never even got a shot in prison. But they put me in there for that reason. But it's not easy. Patrick, I don't care who you are. It's not easy to say, spend that time in solitary.

[John]

And now. You know what I tell people, Mike? I tell people, listen, go home. I'm gonna pay you. Go in your bedroom. Television, nice, comfortable bed. Close the door for six weeks.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[John]

Don't come out. Don't do nothing. Let one of your kids or somebody slide some food under your door so you could eat. You could even stick something through the door. Let them wash your clothes and stay in that room for six weeks. See how you feel. Most people can't even do that.

[Michael]

Can't do it, Sammy, a lot of people couldn't even stay in their own.

[John]

House during COVID No, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. They can't stay in their own house, their own room with some comforts. I met a couple of guys when I first got out. A couple real tough guys. A biker guy, he just got out of the hole. He did eight months in a hole. Hey, Sammy. How you heard of me? I didn't know. Wow. He said, I just got out of the hole from eight months. It's a bitch. I said, no, I know. You were in the hole, right? Yeah. How long were you in the hole? Six and a half years. What? How the fuck. How are you even talking to me? How are you still normal?

[Michael]

That's right.

[John]

I said, don't bank on it. Maybe I'm not that normal anymore. But I knew they wanted to break me. There's no reason for me to be normal. And I just got up and walked. The ADX shot back and forth, talking to myself. They want to break you, bro.

[Michael]

That's right.

[John]

And I'm not going to break. I'm not going to give him that. Maybe I'll drop dead in here, but I'm not going to break. And that kept me whole.

[Interviewer/Host]

Coming up on Mafia States of America.

[John]

I was in prison with Larry Mask. Larry Master told me. We knew that you guys talked, and we knew that John gave you the hit. It would have been a massive shootout if you would have came in on this hit. But I was taking off of it.

[Michael]

When I got out of the car, Jimmy grabbed my arm and he said, I'm gonna tell you something. You're not gonna like it. And I said, what? He said, your father was in there before you this morning, and he. I mean, this evening. And he threw you under the bus. He didn't help you one bit. But I can tell you, if that night doesn't happen, I would have never walked away from that life.

[Chorus/Singer]

Oh, beautiful for spacious skies Forever Waves of gray Forever majesty Above the fruited plain American sweet American God shed will we proud of you with sea to sh. Oh, beautiful Strike.

[Narrator/Announcer]

This holiday. Discover meaningful gifts for everyone on your list at K. Not sure where to start. Our jewelry experts are here to help you find or create the perfect gift in store or online. Book your appointment today and unwrap love this season only at K.