Mafia States of America | Episode 7 - "The Five Families"

Summary

PBD Podcast – Mafia States of America | Episode 7: “The Five Families”

Date: November 13, 2025
Host: Patrick Bet-David (PBD)
Guests: Michael Franzese, Sammy “The Bull” Gravano, Historian/Expert

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Overview

This episode dives deep into the legendary Five Families of the American Mafia, exploring their individual histories, reputations, infighting, and how shifting loyalties and ambition led to violence and decline. The hosts and guests—infamous mobsters Michael Franzese (former Colombo capo) and Sammy Gravano (former Gambino underboss)—along with a historian, offer first-hand accounts and analysis of how “the life” changed, the infighting that tore it apart, and the human impact of Mafia rules, betrayals, and adherence to tradition.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Five Families: Structure, Reputation, and Power

• Breakdown of the Five Families: Genovese, Gambino (the biggest, most powerful, and brutal), Lucchese, Colombo, and Bonanno (smaller, often embroiled in conflict or drugs).

  • Michael: “During my time, we had about 115 made members... Gambinos and Genovese, I believe, had over 200, maybe closer 250, 300. So they were the bigger families.” (04:01)
  • Sammy: “The two most powerful families, the biggest families were the Gambino and the Genovese. They were dangerous, both of them, but they were earners and they were racketeers.” (05:00)

• Each Family’s “Specialty”:

  • Genovese: Power, brutality, control of shipping unions
  • Gambino: Dangerous, biggest earners, racketeers
  • Bonanno: Drug dealing, lost their Commission seat
  • Lucchese: Drug involvement
  • Colombo: Perpetually in internal conflict

Notable Quote

“It doesn’t take much strength to pull a trigger, but get up every morning and work for a living to feed a family... that’s the real tough guy.” – Narrator (02:52)

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2. Betrayals, Ambition, and Family Troubles

• Power Struggles Within the Families

  • Explains how internal ambition and betrayals, such as Vic Arena’s challenge for power in Colombo, triggered wars.
  • Michael: “Vic used to come around to all of us and he used to complain about Junior all the time... We called him Junior’s rat.” (18:25)
  • Sammy: “John was more or less backing him. Junior actually put out a hit to kill him because he couldn’t replace him.” (20:47)

• The Infamous Colombo Family Wars

  • The wars were detailed, with accounts of kidnappings, betrayals, and assassination attempts. (16:01–23:30)
  • Sammy describes Profaci’s leadership and transition to Colombo, betrayal and shifting alliances, and the resulting bloodshed.

Memorable Moment

“Our thing is based on a secret society and a brotherhood. We don’t get a bullhorn to talk to each other... That’s a secret society. You don’t come out dressed up in pink earrings.” – Sammy (14:04)

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3. The Downside of Mafia Life: Personal Stories of Loyalty and Disillusionment

• Personal Tipping Points

  • Michael and Sammy both describe “tipping points” where Mafia rules and betrayals shattered their loyalty.
  • Michael narrates a tense story where he suspected he might be killed due to internal suspiciousness over money. His father failed to defend him, which shattered Michael’s belief in the life:

    “If that night doesn’t happen, I would have never walked away from that life, not for my wife or whatever. I would have never done it.” (32:50)

• Life vs. Boss: Why They Left

  • Both insist they didn’t leave the Mafia “life” itself, but rather the people and bosses who violated its core values.
    • “I don’t think anybody quits the Life. They quit the people in the life. They quit the boss. I know his story. I believe that a thousand percent because it’s happened to Cole. Carmine Persico.” – Sammy (39:50)

Notable Quote

“You quit the people around you who betray you. It’s not the life itself... But when you’re getting betrayed by the new guys or John Gotti or Carmine who make rules... there is no life.” – Sammy (40:33)

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4. The Importance of Secrecy and Rules vs. Ego

• Negative Attention and Changing Norms
  • Gotti and earlier Joe Colombo are blamed for bringing “heat” and public attention to the Mafia, breaking the classic rule of secrecy.
  • “It was John, without a doubt...” – Michael (12:55)
  • Historian: “Every seven years there’d be like a little something they couldn’t see settle, boom, they all go kill each other.” (13:36)
• Drugs, Money, and the Downfall
  • Major shifts—like involvement in drugs and insatiable greed—undermined both public tolerance and internal trust.
  • Historian/Expert: “The Godfather contains almost as much wisdom as any book ever written... But if we get into drugs and we're ruining people's lives, it’s going to all change. I think that changed the nature... Vito went to jail for a drug operation.” (07:46)

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5. The Cost of Violence and Internal Feuds

• Statistics of the Wars

  • 18 mobsters and three civilians killed in the Colombo civil war (21:52)

• Permission and Protocol

  • Michael describes nearly being killed, how protocol and distrust lead to violence—even between close associates and family.

    “One of the horrors of that life...you make a mistake, your best friend walks you into a room, you don’t walk out again.” – Michael (28:13)

• Stories of Misused Power

  • Sammy describes Carmine Persico’s cold, greedy, and dishonorable decisions, especially his unwillingness to spare lives when possible:

    “He was cold, if very, very dangerous. Very sneaky if he wanted to kill somebody.” – Sammy (35:03)

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6. Enduring Lessons and Reflections

• What 'the Life' Means Now
  • Both guests insist some Mafia values—loyalty, respect for family—are still worthwhile, but modern realities and betrayals destroyed the old code.
  • Sammy: “When it says there's a lot of good people in the life? So I don't put the life down. ...the life is respect, loyalty.” (41:16)
  • Michael: “If somebody were to go after my family, I’m cosa ostra again. I wouldn’t get satisfaction of them going to prison. I would want to kill them myself.” (47:43)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction / Recap: 01:15–02:52
• Five Families Breakdown: 03:44–05:22
• Individual Family Reputations: 05:14–07:46
• Drug Dealing & Mafia’s Downfall: 07:46–09:31
• Commission, War, and Power Shifts: 09:31–13:28
• Colombo Family Civil Wars: 15:40–23:31
• The Tipping Point – Michael’s Story: 27:56–33:14
• Why Mobsters Quit Their Bosses, Not the Life: 39:29–41:13
• Meaning of ‘the Life’ Today: 41:13–43:45
• Reflections and Loyalty: 47:31–47:56

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Memorable Quotes

• “It doesn’t take much strength to pull a trigger, but get up every morning and work for a living to feed a family... that’s the real tough guy.” – Narrator (02:52)
• “I don’t think anybody quits the Life. They quit the people in the life. They quit the boss.” – Sammy (39:50)
• “If that night doesn’t happen, I would have never walked away from that life, not for my wife or whatever. I would have never done it.” – Michael (32:50)
• “If somebody were to go after my family, I’m cosa ostra again. I wouldn’t get satisfaction of them going to prison. I would want to kill them myself.” – Michael (47:43)
• “[Carmine Persico] was cold, if very, very dangerous. Very sneaky if he wanted to kill somebody.” – Sammy (35:03)

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Tone

The tone is honest and raw—sometimes nostalgic, sometimes bitter, always gritty. Both Michael and Sammy reflect with a mix of pride and disappointment, stressing the difference between the glorified idea of Mafia honor and the harsh, often corrupt, dangerous reality they experienced.

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This summary provides a comprehensive roadmap to the main ideas, personal anecdotes, and memorable insights from Episode 7 of Mafia States of America. Listeners are offered a candid glimpse into the Mafia’s legendary past, its rules and betrayals, and its ongoing legacy in American memory.

Transcript

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[Narrator]

Previously on Mafia States of America.

[Michael]

When somebody tells you you got to go kill this guy. I don't even know this guy. What do I got? Well, you don't have to know what happened. Go kill him. What did he do?

[Sammy]

Never mind.

[Michael]

Just go kill him. Okay, that's not normal, Sammy.

[Sammy]

It's not normal because you don't understand the beginning of Gosa Nostra, how this thing even started and what it was.

[Michael]

Sami, I don't care if it started a hundred years ago. I'm not smirking at you. I don't care if it started a hundred years ago or yesterday.

[Sammy]

It's not normal to you. It's not normal. It's not good. Then keep that in your mind. It's not normal.

[Michael]

It's not.

[Sammy]

But yet you'll break that. Not normal to defend and go kill somebody who fucked with your family.

[Michael]

Are you sorry for the things that you did in that life?

[Chorus/Singer]

America. Got cheated. Oh, we cried out. We see. To sh. He cry. To sh.

[Narrator]

Let's be honest. All Italians are not in the Mafia. It's important to remember, Italians don't have a monopoly on organized crime. The Irish, the Jews, the African Americans, the Russians, Albanians. We all have our demons to bear. But the true fabric of every one of these neighborhoods is the working people. The baker, the. The bus driver, the cop, the seamstress. You may have Heard this once before, but it doesn't take much strength to pull a trigger, but get up every morning and work for a living to feed a family. In my opinion, that's the real tough guy, because the choices you make will shape your life forever.

[Interviewer/Host]

Who was the Genovese family? The Gambino family, the Lucchese family, the Colombo family, the Bonanno family, meaning the Colombo, were known as earners. The Genovese were the most brutal. You know, these guys had the most power. What was the reputation of all five families?

[Michael]

I can tell you about our family. You know, we wanted the smaller ones. During my time, we had about 115 MAID members. We had a lot of associates, but maid members and the Gambinos and Genovese, I believe, had over 200, maybe closer. 250, 300. So they were the bigger families. I think they were known as the more powerful families. My dad. My dad, you know, drove me crazy at times. But I had an offer at one time to jump to Columbus and be part of the Genovese family from Chin. And I turned it down because I said, you know, I don't jump ship. And my father got mad at me. He said, what, are you crazy? You should have went. I said, dad, you always send me mixed signals. I don't know what you want from me. But I asked Junior one time, I said, junior, why do we have only 115 guys? She says, well, I look for quality, not quantity. I don't know if that really applied in our family, but that was the answer I got.

[Sammy]

That was a tough answer.

[Michael]

Yeah, it was a tough answer.

[Sammy]

I think he's right. The two most powerful families, the biggest families were the Gambino and the Genovese. They were dangerous, both of them, but they were earners and they were racketeers.

[Michael]

Poor Castello, they had the biggest earners.

[Sammy]

They had the biggest earners. The Genovese, yes. They controlled everything. The shipping unions.

[Interviewer/Host]

At any point, or under a certain regime, or a certain box.

[Sammy]

No way back when that. It's especially when they closed the books that we said 20 years. So whatever it was back then, the Colombo family, the Lucchese family and the Bonanno family were like equal in size. They were the smaller families, so they stayed the biggest families. And when they opened it and put 10 guys in each family, it kept the same proportion of the bigger families. And you know what? The Colombo family, I was there. They were always in fights, arguments.

[Interviewer/Host]

Shoot them up amongst each other.

[Sammy]

Yes, shoot them up. Bang them up. We used to call them the Cambodians when I was in the Gambino family because they were fucking always fighting, always doing crazy shit. And especially under Carmine personal, he could tell you better than me or just as much as me that they would always shoot him up.

[Historian/Expert]

Carmine wasn't quite Gotti. He was a tough, really tough guy, more of a street guy than some of the others. He was a good hitman in his day. Certainly not afraid to go do it.

[Interviewer/Host]

I mean, he's. He claims that he took out Anastasia back in the days, like, could be.

[Historian/Expert]

Anastasia was Gotti's hero.

[Interviewer/Host]

Anastasia was Gotti's hero.

[Historian/Expert]

His nickname was Kid Blast, and he ran Murder Incorporated. And at least as a matter of legend, it was supposed to be the best hit score squad ever. It was not all Italian. And I think Bug T. Siegel kind of worked in and out of that group. And he always wanted to be like Anastasia, wanted to be like Al.

[Sammy]

The Bonanno family was a drug family, dealt drugs all the time. They were even thrown off the commission at one point.

[Chorus/Singer]

Point.

[Interviewer/Host]

Banana was smaller family.

[Sammy]

Yes. And they didn't have their commission seat.

[Interviewer/Host]

Smaller than Colombo or about the same size.

[Sammy]

About the same size. The Lucchese family was another family that was involved in drugs heavily, more than the other families. So each family was different in different ways. But the Bonanno family lost their commission seat because they were told, like he said yesterday, no drugs. That's so important. All of us. And they just. That's all they did, basically.

[Historian/Expert]

The Godfather contains almost as much wisdom as any book ever written. And there's, of course, the big. The big. The big argument over drugs, right? In which. In which Corleone. Vito Corleone says, you know, we were supplying prostitutes and we were supplying bedding because some men liked to bet. And we were supplying liquor because some people like to have liquor. And these are small, little sins. And the police can look the other way, and we can even pay them for it without their. But if we get into drugs. If we get into drugs and we're ruining people's lives, it's going to all change. I think that's true. I think he was right. I think that changed the nature. I think two things changed the nature of the Mafia when it became perceived it's heavy involvement in the drug trafficking. When Vito Genovese went to jail, they used to always maintain they weren't involved in drugs. So I think Valachi's real importance, aside from opening up the whole thing, is helping to put Vito in jail, because Vito went to jail for a drug operation. So it's obvious that one of the bosses was into drugs. And then I think the second thing was the arrogance and the desire of the younger generation of Mafios not to be these pretend olive oil business guys or insurance business. I think Bonanno had an insurance business as his front. They wanted people to know who they were and how tough they were. And I think that arrogance ultimately changed things for them.

[Sammy]

So the four families had a commission seat. There was a lot of sit downs trying to bring back the Bonanno family, especially when John. We took over because John had a relationship with Joe Messina and he felt that that vote would be in his back pocket. Later on, tapes came out and he really didn't have Joe Messina in his back pocket. Joe Messina talked very bad about him behind his back, said that he was the fault of the downfall of the Mafia on tape. So we found out later that he really. We always thought they were like this, but they weren't.

[Michael]

I think after the whole Pistone, Donnie Brasco thing, they were looking to absorb the Bonanno family into the other families.

[Interviewer/Host]

From five to four.

[Michael]

They were going to break it up.

[Sammy]

And the Colombo family had a relationship like more my stuff. And with Carlo Gambino, so going way back. Joe Colombo himself. There was a. In our language, it was an U bach. An U bock is a relationship, a very tight relationship. And me, I had a personal friendship with some of them. I was in the gala war. Sally Abanese, Smackintosh. A lot of these guys I knew very, very well. We slept and we fought together a little bit until I got transferred. Shorty Spiro, I loved him. I didn't like his brother. And that's how I got in trouble and wound up getting pushed into the Gambino. But I was happy in the Gambino family because I learned things in a different way. It wasn't just go, beat this guy up, shoot this guy. I started learning about unions and business and stuff. True. Castellano, my guy Toddo. And I think that's what made me a little bit of both. I had a taste of a rough life and a taste of more of the business life. And Toddo always told me, you're a tough guy. You use violence, but violence should be used in our life only as a last resort. So I started looking at it and in a whole different way. Even though I was involved in a lot of things, I was good at what I did.

[Interviewer/Host]

Out of the five families, which of them was feared the most? Which of the five Was feared the most.

[Michael]

Well, look, from, you know, I've been asked this question so many times, like, you know, were you in just people ask, were you in fear of Roy Demeo? Because Roy Demeo has that reputation. I don't believe we feared any one family of feared anybody individually because we.

[Interviewer/Host]

Were all who we were, we were.

[Michael]

All capable of doing what we had to do and nobody was going to come after us. You just don't do that with another made guy. It doesn't happen unless you screw up.

[Sammy]

And you get in trouble.

[Interviewer/Host]

So fear was non existent. It wasn't like you're fearing each other. It was more respect than fear for one another.

[Sammy]

Michael is saying you could fear an individual. Gas pipe was a fucking half a nut.

[Michael]

Yes.

[Sammy]

Roy Demeo became a serial killer. So you could. Or Tommy Karate. You can fear an individual even if you're a tough guy. You say, whoa, this guy's killing nuts. He's completely nuts. You gotta be careful for this. So it's not fear, fear. You just understand the person that you're dealing with. But they don't fear each other's families. We're all brothers.

[Interviewer/Host]

Which one of the five families brought the most negative attention to the life where the other families were like, you gotta be kidding me. Knock it off already.

[Sammy]

When it came to John Gotti, we gotta put our fucking head up. We, we took the cake.

[Michael]

Yeah, it was John, without a doubt. And it was Joe Columba before that. Even, even if it was an ill intended, he brought a lot of unnecessary heat on a lot of people.

[Sammy]

Right.

[Historian/Expert]

I thought the mafia was going to take him out. He fit that category of four or five people that they killed because they were getting too much, getting too much attention. And they did attempt one time on him. Yeah, they made the one attempt and then I think they were somewhat disappointed when the government failed a couple of times because the juries were fixed.

[Interviewer/Host]

What did you think about the time when the Victor Arena, Carmine Persicol, that whole war that was taking place, Were you there during that time when that was going on?

[Historian/Expert]

Yes, I investigated that whole thing. The Godfather says, like something like every seven years we have to get out the bad blood. Almost accurate. Every seven years there'd be like a little something they couldn't see. Settle, boom, they all go kill each other.

[Interviewer/Host]

Filter people out.

[Historian/Expert]

Yeah. The Gallo Colombo war went on in Red Hook. There were like 45, 50 dead bodies all over Red Hook, Brooklyn. And the commission just stepped back and let them just kill each other. And then said, okay, you want to settle it now and then.

[Sammy]

They would settle it once you come out of the closet, so to speak. And taking this loving the attention and bringing into the life of the heart, everybody. And that's just what happened. Our thing is based on a secret society and a brotherhood. We don't get a bullhorn to talk to each other. We shake hands, we kiss on the cheek and we may whisper something in each other's ears. That's a secret society. You don't come out dressed up in pink earrings. Look, I wound up with a pink earring.

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[Sammy]

If you don't do that, I'm out of myself.

[Michael]

I got my wedding band.

[Sammy]

You got your wedding band.

[Interviewer/Host]

History of the Colombo war.

[Sammy]

Can you.

[Interviewer/Host]

Can you give us an idea what happened with what caused Colombo war? 1, 2 and 3.

[Michael]

Sam, you might be more familiar. I told you my experience. I was a kid with the first Gallo, Colombia, Gallo, Profaci war. At that time, my experience was through my dad. And you know what I heard from him. But Sammy was there.

[Sammy]

So he's right. It wasn't Colombo. It was Profaci. Ran that family. Joe Colombo became the Colombo family after Profaci was dead and he was put in and they were going to kill Profaci and they got together, the gallows. Joe Colombo, Persico, they were all captains and they were getting together. They were going to betray one another. After they killed Pasvaci, they found out while Papachi was alive. Carmine Pasico went there. Colombo was on their side. I got into the story earlier. That's what happened in the first war. They all went to prison. It stopped. When they came out, it started again. Until Joe Gallo was that crazy Joe Gallo. And it Stopped.

[Michael]

Sammy, I got to ask you a question, because this. I don't know the answer to this. I was told that during the war, the first war, the Gallows kidnapped Joe Colombo and two or three other Colombo guys at that time, and they demanded a ransom for him. And Joe Gallo demanded that my father come to negotiate with them because they trusted him. And this is what other people told me, and my dad verified it afterwards. And that Joe Gallo wanted $100,000 to release them. And Albert Gallo talked him out of it. And my father walked out with Joe Colombo and the other three guys. I think one of them might have been Salady Sheikh at the time. I don't know, but this is what I heard. I never verified.

[Sammy]

I didn't have part of it. But they did snatch Joe Colombo. So there's truth to it now, even when I say I know it, but I don't know the other guys. So you could be 100% right. But that's basically the story. There's different names that I don't know. There's some things you don't know. But that's basically the story of what happened. And Gambino was close with Colombo and was always pushing for him to take over after Profaci died, obviously thinking I got a relationship with him and he could be close. The way he conducted himself when he was snatched impressed the Gallows. They said, if we got to take anybody, we'll take him. They trusted him.

[Interviewer/Host]

What role did Victor arena play?

[Michael]

Listen, I Personally, I'm not a fan of Ludovic for a couple of reasons. Number one, he was around my father early on. So I knew him a long time. And, you know, without getting into the detail, I don't think he did the right thing. I gotta tell you straight out. You know, Vic used to come around to all of us and he used to complain about Junior all the time. Junior's got me going crazy. Got me doing this, got me doing that. And then if we would say something, he'd go back to Junior and say, hey, this guy said this. This guy that. So we called him Junior's rat.

[Interviewer/Host]

Was that known amongst everybody?

[Michael]

It was known among a number of us, yeah. We didn't trust Vic when he came around. At least my group of people. And then he made a move on me. Gas wise with John. They kind of teamed.

[Chorus/Singer]

Up.

[Michael]

I didn't know that they had a relationship until that. But they tried to make a move on the gas business with me and Vic, and I really had it out. After John left, we went into A room together. And I'll be honest with you. I called him every name under the sun. This is only me and you here. Obviously. I'll deny it if you say anything. And we got into it. And after that, I didn't see him anymore. I mean, I won the argument. They didn't get involved. But I just had a real bad taste in my mouth at that point. With Vic.

[Sammy]

I've heard things similar to that. Not 100%, but I agree with him. It's not that I'm disagreeing because I just don't know that part of it. But I knew that Carmelite part ago made him the acting boss of the family. I was part of the commission. I wasn't a boss. I worked with John. John was the boss, but I was the underboss. He became the acting boss. There was problems that Junior would change. He's the acting boss. You're the acting boss. The commission sent word to him. Now, you put Vic in. You're not changing him no more. Once we approve him for you, he's staying there. He can't be replaced. So Vic, like he's saying, started talking with people, complaining about Junior in different ways. And it seemed like he wanted to take over the family. That's all John had of hand. Now. I didn't realize that he had a relationship with Vic this long, but I knew it.

[Chorus/Singer]

That.

[Sammy]

So John was more or less backing him. Junior actually put out a hit to kill him because he couldn't replace him. So now he had to hit him. Johnny Pate, who was a captain with them and a few other guys who went on a hit. They were by his house. Vic saw them, realized that they don't belong. This has got to be a hit. And took off. They didn't get them. That's what opened up the war. And then there was two sides. And that was like, now, the second war. And it was Junior and Vickery. And there was People picked sides. A lot of different guys got killed. And it went on for a long time. Greg Scott Pascha Sr. Went on the side of Junior, and they were killing guys. There's a whole list of names. I'm not gonna get into all the names. And they were banging each other out left and right.

[Interviewer/Host]

Number was 18. People got killed. Three civilians. Was it more than that, or does that sound about right?

[Sammy]

18 and three.

[Interviewer/Host]

18 and three.

[Sammy]

That sounds about right. And then what happened? One day I came out of the club. John, he was talking to Vic arena. And he called me over. John Gotti. And he Said, sammy, you know Greg Senior? Of course I know. Could you take him out? He's a main guy in another family. So John was sticking his nose in this wall.

[Michael]

They were friends going back.

[Sammy]

So I said, yeah, I probably could. He's right. In my neighborhood on B Avenue, there's a pool room. This kid, Larry Mazza, owns the pool. I could probably take him out. So I set up this whole hit. I'm not going to go all the details. I set up the hit. We were going to take him out. While I was setting up the hit, John called me back. Vic must have brought it to his people. And they said, you know how bad you're going to look if you make John and Sammy do this hit. It's like you're weak. You got to do your room work. So he took me off the head. Somebody who was with him who. He told the story, sneaked it to Scarpa. I was in prison with Larry Masa. Larry Masa told me. We knew that you guys talked, and we knew that John gave you the hit. It would have been a massive shootout if you would have came in on this hit. But I was taken off of it. So he verified this whole thing. Basically, that was what went on. And John was behind that whole thing with Vic. So I just didn't realize how far that went back.

[Interviewer/Host]

But what is the timeline during this entire time of Gotti's recordings with the feds? You hearing Gotti's recording that. You hear him say what he said about you, you flipping and you deciding to step away? What is the timeline? Is this all happening at the same time simultaneously?

[Michael]

Well, the war started that we were just talking about in, like, 1991. And the reason I know that a couple of things. It became public that I was walking away in the late 80s, around 90, around the same time when that happened, the FBI came into prison and told me that. That Vicarina was taking over and that he put a hit out on me for walking away. I said, that makes sense. He doesn't like me.

[Interviewer/Host]

He put a hit out on you for walking away?

[Michael]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Host]

And that was public. People knew.

[Michael]

I don't know who knew, but they said they got word from their informants and they're obligated to tell you and all that stuff. So, you know, at the same time, I get released from prison shortly afterwards, and my father, who is out, said, the family's going to war. And he said to me, you need to stop the BS walking away and get back here. And obviously, we would not have jumped ship. We Were Junior all the way Persico. But then I got violated a couple of. Maybe a month later when this happened, the family went to war, just like they said they were going to war.

[Sammy]

So he's right 1000%. And me and John got pinched in December of 90. So the war was just raging now. So he was gone and I was gone. But we both have knowledge of what would happen. Like he got in, in prison even while we were gone. Up until I flipped, I knew what was going on even after I flipped. So did this Larry Mazar. So did 100 other guys. And I did time with some of them, like Larry Mazza. And I heard a lot of these things. But that's secondhand knowledge at best. I don't have firsthand. I'm in prison.

[Michael]

The only guy you know, Donnie Shax.

[Sammy]

Right?

[Michael]

I do know Donnie. I met him when they were transporting me. I met him in El Reno, in the prison. And he had. He verified everything that was going on because he was going one way, I was going the other. But he told me he's definite they're going to war. What's going on with you? He discussed it with me and, you know, I told him what I was doing. And then, then it all broke loose.

[Interviewer/Host]

So during this time, Victor ends up getting 85 years plus life. I think it's.

[Michael]

I think he got like 300 years.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, he got.

[Sammy]

I don't know how much. He's got life, he's finished.

[Interviewer/Host]

But Rudy got 50, Giuliani got 58. I think it's 42 from Persico's faction, and then he had 70, 16 from Victors. All of this happened is the timeline in a six month timeline, is it a 12 month timeline, what all this is happening? Or was it more a couple years?

[Michael]

It's a couple of years.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay, got it. It's a couple years while this is going on. Got it, got it. So the domino effect in your eyes, do you guys see Victor as somebody divided and gave an end for the feds? Do you see Victor as someone that caused a lot of harm or. No. Victor just was somebody that was overly ambitious and wanted to take Junior route.

[Michael]

Yeah, I think he did harm. I think he did a lot of harm to the family. I mean, he started a war. Junior gave him a position, you know, your acting boss until alley boy. His son, my Gumbata came home and Vic got power hungry like we talked about yesterday, and said, no, this is my family now. You know, Junior. Look, Junior sometimes was his own worst. I mean, the Smart thing that Junior did. He had a lot of his family members involved. I mean, Andrew Russo was his first cousin. He had his son. You know, he's got his kids. He had his brother. He had family involved to hold the family together. But then everybody started going to jail.

[Interviewer/Host]

Was he feared, loved, admired, fair. Meaning he shared his money. Not like Castellano. What was he known for?

[Michael]

You know, I personally. I mean, look, they called him the Snake. I mean, he was. You feared him. You didn't want to cross him. You don't want to cross him. I got along good with him. I had one bad experience with him, very bad, that left an impression on me, but other than that, you know, I got along with him.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, what was that bad experience?

[Michael]

Well, you know, look, I was making a lot of money in the business, and I think I told you yesterday a story about me. And, you know, look, one of the. One of the things in that life that's one of the horrors of that life, I would say, is that you make a mistake, your best friend walks.

[Sammy]

You into a room.

[Michael]

You don't walk out again. And so I got a call one night, and actually, my father was on parole, and he called me over to his house, and he said, look, Junior wants to see us. I said, what about? He said, well, I don't know. I says, all right, well, let's go. What time you want me to take you? He says, no. He says, junior wants me to come in first. He wants you to come in second. I said, why? Why? I said, that doesn't make sense. I said, you know, there's talk on the street because Junior had sent some guys to talk to my Russian partners and ask them, you know, I'll tell you what happened. Junior always wanted to meet my partners in the gas business. And I said, junior, look, I don't trust any of these guys. If something goes down with them, I'm not going to introduce them to everybody, so everybody can get in trouble. I said, they can only hurt me. They can't hurt anybody else. That went for Irizzo and the Russians. And I knew why they wanted to meet these guys. In case anything happened to me, they would know them and have a relationship, but I wouldn't let it happen. But he sent some guys to talk to them. So I knew there was some rumbling on the street that maybe I was making more money than I was turning in, and we were turning in a lot. So when this meeting came by, I said, dad, why should we be separated? Let's go together. And we were Both captains at the time. And honestly, it was the first time, Patrick, I had an argument with my father. I never disrespected my father. Never even talked him back. We debated, but I never got. This time I was upset. I said, you're wrong. We're not going to be separated. Let's go in together. Back and forth, back and forth. Finally, I gave in. I said, dad, I've been giving it to you all my life. I don't like it, but if this is what you want, we'll do it. So I don't know if you knew Jimmy. Angelina.

[Sammy]

Sure, you know Jimmy.

[Michael]

I knew Jimmy a long time. He was another captain. So he tells me, come into Brooklyn, park your car a certain place, and then I'll drive you. Because Junior was on parole, so we had to do a covert meeting there to make sure we weren't following. And I get in the car and I'm driving with Jimmy, and he's silent. He doesn't really tell me what's going on. And I said, jimmy, what's this about? He said, I don't know. He doesn't really answer me. And there's some guy sitting in the back of the car that I recognize, but I didn't really know who he was. So now we pull up to the house in Brooklyn. There's a house, and it was a basement apartment that we were going into. And I'll be honest with you, Patrick, I get out of the car and I said, something's wrong here. This ain't good. Separated me and my father. I got Jimmy taking me. I get out of the car. It was about a 30 yard walk from the car to the basement apartment. And I said, I'm going to get killed here. Something's bad. And I'll be honest, I was scared, I was nervous. I said, this is bad. But I walked right and I go in. Obviously I'm still here. But they really grilled me up the gas business. And I started to get mad. I said, you know, I brought this thing in. I'm showing you more money than you ever had, and you're questioning me. I'm taking all the risk. I said, what's going on here? And I started to get a little mad. Now you don't get mad with the boss.

[Sammy]

I was wrong.

[Michael]

So I held myself. Everything was done, kiss and everything. And I said, jimmy, take me to my car. I got a long way.

[Sammy]

I left.

[Michael]

I lived in Long island at the time. So I get in the car with Jimmy, and honestly, I was mad. I said, Jimmy, I know you. All my life. I'm walking into a trap here, possibly. And you don't tell me. And I forgot. Omerta. For that second, I forgot. I'm just talking to one friend to another, and he looks at me and he says, well, if it was the other way around, would you have told me? Just like that? You're smart. Good answer. And I thought about it, and I said, no. And I'll tell you what happened at night, Patrick, when I went to get out of the car. And the reason I'm telling you this, because I'm going to tell you how it impacted on me. When I got out of the car, Jimmy grabbed my arm and he said, I'm going to tell you something. You're not going to like it. And I said, why? Because your father was in there before you this morning, and he. I mean this. This evening, and he threw you under the bus. He didn't help you one bit. And I said, what? Now, knowing my father, I know how he operates. What he told them is that I was on parole. I don't do anything. My son handles everything. If he's stealing, I don't know. And he kind of just absolved himself. And that's what I found out afterwards. Well, I'll be honest with you, Patrick. That's what kind of broke it for me. Because I said, if this life can separate father and son. And we never had a disagreement, an argument ever up till that point?

[Interviewer/Host]

No falling out?

[Michael]

Never. I mean, we. You know, back and forth. My father never wanted money. I would put up things like that. Didn't mean anything, but I didn't say anything. I never said a word to him. I never talked about it to anybody else. But I can tell you, if that night doesn't happen, I would have never walked away. Away from that life. Not for my wife or whatever. I would have never done.

[Interviewer/Host]

That was your tipping point?

[Michael]

That was my tipping point. But I. I didn't meet my. My wife now till two years later, but that stayed in my mind. And I said, this is. There's something wrong here.

[Sammy]

Got it?

[Interviewer/Host]

How did you view Persico yourself? How did you view.

[Sammy]

He was a fucking snake. He was very greedy. I know there was a guy, Frank. Frankie something or other, who was in jail with him at the same time he was reading a newspaper. He had a farm, and he was obsessed with buying things and getting things for that farm. Frankie something, Elder. I forgot his fucking last name. But he died in prison. He had a heart attack and he died. One guy Went up to Junior, said, Junior, he was reading the paper. He says, Frankie just had a heart attack downstairs. They think he's dead. He said, see this equipment? This equipment. I could buy this dirt cheap for the farm. This here would be so beneficial. He says, tell him you're one of your top guys. One of your fucking best friends just died of a fucking heart attack, bro. You talk about the fucking equipment. He was cold. He was cold, if very, very dangerous. Very sneaky if he wanted to kill somebody. And another main guy. I just did a story about an ex friend, an ex girlfriend of mine, Louise and her brother got in trouble. He stabbed Carmine Persicol's son, Larry Boyd.

[Chorus/Singer]

Larry.

[Sammy]

And Larry was a complete asshole, this kid. So he gets into a fight. This kid was a good kid, a street kid. Didn't know it was his father, stabbed him. And when she called me up, I knew the family. I went to go see the family and I wanted to straighten him. I was a main guy in the Gambino family, so I wanted to stick my 2 cents in the kid. Larry didn't die so I could try to save this kid by doing something. Worse Comes to worse, I can make a deal. Say, listen, it's your son. He didn't die. If you want, we'll chase him out of the state of New York. We'll tell him, get out of New York and you'll live. Come back, and there's nothing I can do. But they put up a steel wall. In other words, when Sammy comes in. They knew the relationship I had. Don't talk to them. So when I would go to talk to somebody, well, we didn't get an answer yet. We'll make an appointment. We'll do this. They did that with me, with this guy, Jerry Papper, one time. This guy Dutchy was representing him. Me and Poppy of beef. When Dutchy went down, they said, junior's not here. He was in the other room. Junior came out to me and said, listen. Dutchy came down and straightened it out. Before he can straighten it out, go kill him. That's what they did with this kid, Luis's brother. And that is so dishonorable because we're all friends about this. When it comes to saving a life, that's probably one of the highest priorities. And that family is a friend of mine. I went to save this kid's life. You put up a war. I wasn't able to sit down and get an agreement where. All right, this is the agreement. Chase him out. We won't do anything. You're able to do that with most people, but Carmine didn't do that.

[Michael]

It was tough. And I mentioned yesterday, too, there was two guys that, you know, were killed. And in both cases, I tried to save them. In both cases, it was the nine. Junior made the decision. One of them, Patrick, in my opinion, I don't think the guy should have been. Neither one of them, I don't think should have been killed, even though one really by. You don't kidnap made guys. And it was just hard to save them. But the other one, I believe and I discuss it with my father, was more a message to me and my father to let them know, let us know that we're in control here. And that's why I took that one really hard, because I said there was more to it. This kid could have been saved. But they're trying to send a message to me and my dad. We're in control of this family. And there was no reason for that. Nobody was trying to make a move or do anything. My father was on parole. He wasn't trying to. To do anything. But, you know, another thing with Junior is after I got locked up, after this incident happened, I'm in the bullpen with him. I had no bail. They wouldn't give me bail. And Junior and Jerry Lang was there. Now, look, I don't like to talk about people, but I will talk about. He wasn't my favorite guy, Jerry Lang. He was a hard guy to get close to and get friendly with, like Greg Scarper. These are not guys you. You want to go out there to eat with and stuff like that. They're just. And I'm not talking about them personally. It's just my feeling with them. And they were in the bullpen, and I come in and Junior says, you know, Michael, I'm still here and on the street. You're making a lot more money. I said, junior, I'm in jail. I just got indicted on a big case. What's the problem? He said, well, he said, you know what that means, right? I said, no, I don't know what that means. What does it mean? He says, you know what it means? No, in other words, he was trying to tell me if that's true again after this incident, that I'm going to get killed. And I say to myself, what is this guy? What is he persisting with this? He says, how are you going to fight the case? I said, I'm not. I'm taking a plea. You're taking a plea? He said, you ask permission? I said, I got to Ask permission to take a plea. I said, Junior, I'm facing 100 years here. If I can wrap this up, what's the problem? Since when do you need plenty permission to take a plea? But I said, I'm asking your permission because I'm taking the plea. And he said, okay, but just, you know, this is what not. This is not what cousin Austria is supposed to be.

[Interviewer/Host]

So did you leave the Life or did you leave your boss? You know, in the corporate world, I'm in the business world. A lot of times you'll say people don't quit. Quit a job or a business, but they quit a boss and who they're working with. How often did people quit, even in your case here, did you quit the Boss or the Life?

[Michael]

You know, let me answer that.

[Sammy]

I don't think anybody quits the Life. They quit the people in the Life. They quit the boss. I don't know his story. I believe that a thousand percent because it's happened to Cole. Carmine Persicole. He's bringing a lot of money in, ain't enough. And he's going to consider maybe he ain't getting enough. And he's already considering that. We bump him off, we take these, we get more. That's typical him. So that's why I believe the story. I know him well, 100%. That's his.

[Interviewer/Host]

So the one thing that sounds both of you have in common is both of you quit your bosses.

[Sammy]

You quit the people around you who betray you. It's not the life itself. Listen, I still love the life. I told you, it's part of my heritage. I love the life. I love what it means. I don't love everybody in the Life. But when you're getting betrayed by the new guys or John Gotti or Carmine park ago who make rules and stuff that ripped the Life to shreds the rules, and everything just changed then there is no life. There is no belief. Just like that guy Bushetta when you start killing his whole family, there is no life. You don't believe in nothing no more.

[Interviewer/Host]

So what do you mean you still love the life? What is the life to you today.

[Sammy]

When it says there's a lot of good people in the life? So I don't put the life down. I believe one time when me and Michael talked a second or two and I talked to him personally for a minute or two, that the life is respect, loyalty. So someone asked me about it and I said, well, I respect him. I respect a lot of things he does. Seems to me that he loves his family.

[Interviewer/Host]

He.

[Sammy]

He loves his family. He loves his wife, he loves his children. He's proud of them. He brought them up with a ton of respect. Now I love that about him. And that's Gozen Osha teaching. We believe in that. But when you take that teaching or that book completely out and you destroy it with fucked up things, you see in friends die or people like, I saw this kid, Johnny Boy die. I love this girl. I mean, as a friend, I love that I was almost married to her. I knew the whole family. Why can't we save this kid? For what reason? I'm showing my. What I. What I care about. You have to respect that in your life. And then your son Larry Percico was a piece of shit. I bumped into him in the club. I had five guys with me. I think I had a little bit of a tough reputation. And I had five guys with me, My top five guys. This jerk in an after hour club and he's saying something about me.

[Michael]

So he was a wild card.

[Sammy]

Stupid kid. And I know somebody when he was in the nut house, a guy at the time with him in a nut house, he's nothing. So I in. In that after hour club, I said, come on, let's get the out of here, right? Send me. Look at the way he's talking. You want us to do. No, no, no, no. His father's. Come on, bicycle. I was with the manor father. I want to get out of here because this kid's gonna do something stupid. And then we're gonna do something stupid. That's not the life. Let me get the out of here before I hurt him. So it's not that I'm afraid of him. I'm afraid of me or my crew, what I'm gonna do.

[Interviewer/Host]

So what happens if you do take him out? Does that. Is that stuff?

[Sammy]

I could take anybody I damn well please. It depends on what he did.

[Interviewer/Host]

It's a son, though.

[Sammy]

It's car. I don't give a whose son it is. If you're gonna allow your son to run around the streets like that and do certain things, bro, if. If his son goes out and rapes somebody, that's okay because he's called my personal son or my son. No, it ain't okay. Now you gotta be goes. In Austria, my son did this. Is that my son? Then he's not my son no more. So there's rules and goes and also. But it's rules in life. Your son goes out and goes shoot 14 kids in the school. What do you say? Oh, that's my son, bro. That's my son. What about those 14 people they shot? There's. There's rules of life.

[Michael]

He's right. Look, he's right about, you know, there was. Look, my own brother. I don't know how my brother lasted. Maybe because he was a drug addict. He lasted and that was the excuse all the time, because I can't tell you how many times we had to bail him out, save him for doing crazy things. But you know one thing too, that laid on me in that life? I don't know if you knew Ali boy that well. Junior, his son.

[Sammy]

I did okay.

[Michael]

Well, he was my goombata.

[Chorus/Singer]

My.

[Michael]

My dad says to me when my son was born, he says, you gotta make Alley boy baptize your son. I said, why, Dad? I said, I got people close to me, my whole crew. He said, no, no, no, you gotta do it. It's politics. I didn't want to do it because, again, I got along with Ali. We got made around the same time. I think he was maybe a week or two before me, but there was always something there where I felt that. And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to make myself anything, but I felt there's a. There was an envy there, and I saw it all the time. So one night, we're in a club out in Long island called channel 80. Philly. Basile owned the club. And I used to had a upstairs and I used to go up there and I had 30, 40 people. We used to. I love the place. We used to have a ball, my whole crew there. We had everybody, right? So one day Ali comes in and I seen him. So I make him come upstairs and I tell the waiters and everything. I said, take good care of this guy. I said, don't charge him anything. I didn't own the place, but you put it on my tab. And we're having a good time. And I'm talking to him a little bit. He wasn't the most sociable kind of guy. He just was that way. And Patrick, I just saw that night and I seen the daggers coming out of his eyes, and I don't know. And again, I don't know if he was bothered by the fact that. But this was a place that I was there all the time, spent a ton of money there, and I had a feeling that it was him and that Junior had the same feeling with me. So when you. I'm saying that because when you asked me, did I leave a boss, I had a great time. With my crew. I loved the life when I was with these guys. And you know what? I don't know how you feel, Sammy, but I told every one of my guys that I trust that. I said, here's a deal with me, you want to make a lot of money, stay with me, you want to get straightened out and made, you got to go somewhere else. I'll never straighten you out. I said, because once I straighten out, I'm going to lose you.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh, you would say that to them?

[Michael]

I'd tell them straight out. I said, if you want to get me, you want to go further in this life, you're welcome. I have no hold on. You go. But if you want to make money, you stay with me. And that's it. And they stayed.

[Narrator]

Coming up on Mafia States of America.

[Sammy]

I did something similar with John. I wish I had the opportunity to know what he had done when we were on the street. I never would have cooperated. I would have killed him.

[Michael]

I consider myself a legitimate person right now. But if somebody were to go after my family, I'm cosa ostra again. I wouldn't get satisfaction of them going to prison. I would want to kill them myself.

[Historian/Expert]

With the Sicilian Mafia, I think killing the judges really hurt them a lot. And the way they killed them was just savage.

[Chorus/Singer]

Oh beautiful for spacious skies forever Waves of grave for purple mountain majesties above the fruited plain. America. Oh beautiful. Country Love air mercy. America.

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[Michael]

Yeah.

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