Mafia States of America | Episode 8 - "The Line You Never Cross"

Summary

PBD Podcast - Mafia States of America | Episode 8: "The Line You Never Cross"

Date: November 14, 2025
Host: Patrick Bet-David with the Home Team
Guests: Sammy "The Bull" Gravano, Michael Franzese

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the moral codes, internal rules, feud lines, and philosophies that defined the American and Sicilian Mafia empires. With former mobsters Sammy "The Bull" Gravano and Michael Franzese, alongside Patrick Bet-David, the conversation unpacks the line between honor and betrayal, the difference between US and Italian Mafias, personal transformation, law enforcement, and the enduring gravity of mafia codes. Central is “the line you never cross”—with a focus on family, omertà (code of silence), and what happens when those lines are broken.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Mafia Code—Lines That Must Not Be Crossed

[03:34 - 11:52]

• The episode opens by exploring the Sicilian Mafia’s brutal history, highlighted by Tommaso Buscetta’s testimony in the Maxi Trial. Buscetta’s emotional regret centered on his family being targeted and the pain of losing them to the mob war.
• Sammy relates to Buscetta’s pain but firmly disagrees with his reaction:

  “If they killed all those family members of his, he should have killed them back, not cooperated. That doesn't make it a reason to cooperate." (Sammy, 05:39)

• Both Sammy and Michael agree that retaliation—not state cooperation—would be their instinct if family was targeted.
• On the sanctity of family:

  “Families...are off fucking limits. They have done nothing to warrant to be hurt, abused, especially killed...Once that room is off the table, then there’s no rules. I would come after them, their families, and everybody else.” (Sammy, 07:08)

• Michael echoes:

  “Even today...somebody would attack my family...I would want to kill them. There's no justice in sending them to jail.” (Michael, 08:46)

Memorable Quote

“The only thing that was ever kept as a code in our life that was honorable: you never go after anybody's family.” — Michael (11:24)

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American vs. Sicilian Mafia—Culture, Power, and Fear

[11:52 - 22:28]

• Authority & Scope:
  Patrick and guests discuss the different strength and scope of the Sicilian and US Mafias—Sicily held “the streets,” but America had more resources and profitable control (Las Vegas, Teamsters, sanitation, garment trade).
• In the US, a “hands off” policy on families, law enforcement, and politicians was strictly observed. In Sicily, those lines were regularly crossed, leading to public outcry and government intervention.
• Division and Mutual Respect:
  The US and Sicilian organizations recognized each other but functioned independently.

  “They're not made here, they're not a friend of ours...period.” (Sammy, 15:32)

• On whether the US Mafia feared Sicilians:

  “I don't think the United States Mafia feared anybody.” (Sammy, 16:55) “This was our town. It was our country. It was our ways.” (Michael, 17:09)

• Anecdote: Sammy recalls a tense standoff with Italians in Brooklyn, making it clear US mobsters defended their turf—violence was always an option but so was political leverage.

Memorable Moment:

Sammy’s story about facing down Sicilians who broke his club’s windows—gun standoff in a basement, but “they never fucked with me again.” (17:23 - 19:55)

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Ethics, Retaliation, and Notions of Justice

[20:40 - 34:31]

• Patrick discusses the dangers for prosecutors targeting the mob, recounting threats against himself and others, and the psychology required to go after the mob.
• When discussing Rudy Giuliani’s absence from the show, Patrick shares Giuliani’s opinion that Michael Franzese “changed his life” but Sammy should “have done 100 years” due to the lives he took:

  “Sammy got a second chance, never took advantage of it. Sammy never changed. Sammy’s the same person today as he was before.” (Patrick quoting Rudy, 23:34)

• Sammy counters:

  “Now, if Rudy was coming in...explain your case. This is a courtroom. And you could put me away...Say what I don't want to hear and I'm gonna fucking kill you right here for everybody." (Sammy, 24:20)

• The room debates whether you can change, whether the criminal life is ever “normal,” and whether prosecutors like Giuliani carry their vendetta too far.
• Michael and Sammy both agree their lives were “not normal”—

  “We weren't normal. We took an oath to commit crime on a daily basis.” (Michael, 30:38)

• Sammy pushes back, reminding the group that many “normal” people—including police, soldiers, politicians—kill or exploit, and morality depends on context.

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Judgment, Transformation, and the Permanence of Mafia Ties

[34:31 - 50:49]

• Both men credit Giuliani for cleaning the streets—even if they dislike his attitude now.

  “I’m grateful that he cleaned the streets.” (Sammy, 34:31) “He was a great man.” (Michael, 34:33)

• But Sammy feels Giuliani is still obsessed with punishment and has no “forgiveness in his heart.”
• Michael points out that old loyalties and old rules die hard—his own father would never accept Sammy for “ratting.”

  “My father would not give you the time of day…He’d probably put a bullet in your head if he saw you.” (Michael, 45:08)

• The group debates what makes someone a true believer and if redemption is possible, both in the law and in “the life.”
• On Law and Order: Sammy:

  “I respect law and order. Cops go out and they save people and they do certain things. They stop crime. Not somebody who’s obsessed…” (Sammy, 47:47)

Notable Quote

“How do you expect me to react to this punk ass bitch who won’t sit here?” — Sammy (50:10)

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Business of Crime—If They Were Starting Over

[51:17 - 52:25]

• The episode closes with a hypothetical: if they had to pick new rackets, what would they choose?
  • Michael: “Gas business again.”
  • Sammy: “Small loans, bigger loans. Shylock loans...today in society, most people are broke.”
• Both reminisce how opportunity often came from outsiders with an angle—not from self-created ideas.

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Notable Quotes

• “Once that room (family) is off the table, then there’s no rules.” — Sammy ‘The Bull’ Gravano (07:08)
• “Even today, somebody would attack my family...I would want to kill them.” — Michael Franzese (08:46)
• “I don't think the United States Mafia feared anybody.” — Sammy ‘The Bull’ Gravano (16:55)
• “Sammy got a second chance, never took advantage of it. Sammy never changed.” — Rudy Giuliani (quoted by Patrick) (23:34)
• “We weren't normal. We took an oath to commit crime on a daily basis.” — Michael Franzese (30:38)
• "How do you expect me to react to this punk ass bitch who won’t sit here?” — Sammy ‘The Bull’ Gravano (50:10)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:36–05:39 – Allure & Paradox of the Mafia, Buscetta’s testimony
• 05:39–11:52 – Retaliation vs. Cooperation, Sacredness of Family
• 12:08–17:23 – US Mafia vs Sicilian Mafia, respect, fear, organizational independence
• 17:23–19:55 – Sammy’s “gunfight” story (US vs Sicilians in Brooklyn)
• 20:02–22:28 – Reputation, contract hits, the rationale behind codes
• 23:34–24:20 – Patrick relays Giuliani’s view on Michael/Sammy
• 24:20–34:31 – Is redemption real? Law and order, normalcy vs criminality
• 34:31–36:13 – Acknowledging Giuliani’s legacy vs. current persona
• 36:13–38:46 – Understanding the criminal mind, using empathy to crack mafia cases
• 45:08–47:28 – Michael: “My father would put a bullet in your head.”
• 51:17–52:25 – “What racket would you get into today?”

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Tone and Language

The episode is raw, direct, and candid—reflecting the straight-talking style of former mobsters who own their pasts but are intensely opinionated about where to draw moral lines. The conversation shifts between nostalgia, moral debate, and open confrontation, underpinned by the hosts’ and guests’ respect for honesty and street code.

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Recommended for listeners seeking real, unfiltered insights into the code of the Mafia, the psychology of its members, and how both criminals and lawmen view “the line you never cross.”

Transcript

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[Narrator]

Previously on Mafia States of America.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I was in prison with Larry Masa. Larry Masa told me, we knew that you guys took and we knew that John gave you the hit. It would have been a massive shootout if you would have came in on this hit. But I was taken off of it.

[Michael]

When I got out of the car, Jimmy grabbed my arm and he said, I'm gonna tell you not gonna like it. And I said, why? He said, your father was in there before you this morning, and he. I mean this, this evening, and he threw you under the bus. He didn't help you one bit. But I can tell you, if that night doesn't happen, I would have never walked away from that life. Not for my wife or whatever. I would have never done.

[Interviewer]

That was your tipping point?

[Michael]

That was my tipping point.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

America, sweet America got ch. From sea to sh.

[Narrator]

The thing that always fascinates me is the allure of the mob. Why these young hoods want to be in the mafia. How is this big deal to be made? People in the mob, they're kind of like in that gray area, you know, kind of a paradox. They could be very funny and kissing their kids and going to church on Sunday. And then on Monday, they whack somebody. And that's what makes them so unique. That's why the world is fascinated with this kind of lifestyle. But in the end, I never met anyone, anyone in the mob who didn't end up dead or in jail. Why would you want to do it? It's like putting a target on your back.

[Interviewer]

Tommaso Boschetta was a Mobster from the Italian Sicilian family. I don't know if you've had a chance to see it or not. Have you had a chance to see it?

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I didn't see it, but I know a little bit about it.

[Interviewer]

So there's a part in the story that is actually very interesting to me that has to do with you a little bit about your father's story, Sonny. And so he tells the story. This is in the 80s where, you know, they built a court. 475 defendants are there. It's literally a court and a bunch of made men behind bars. And the main bosses are there. You know, some of the names, Rena. There's a lot of the names out there that are the big bosses that were in the room and they're testifying. And he's going through telling the whole story. There's a part where he said this. I'm going to quote him, and I kind of want to know if you relate to any of this. He said in front of the court, everyone's there. He's saying this. He says, I've spent most of my life as a member of the Sicilian Mafia family. I've seen so many changes in the organization that I no longer feel bound by their code of silence or omerta. They have no trials. They have no jails. Their power is terror. As a mafiosa, I have nothing to repent. It is the people I will speak about. It is they who betray the life, the Mafia life. They are traitors. While I defend the real Mafia, I've lost sons, brother in laws, brothers, nephews. None of them were men of honor, made men. That's what tormented me most. I'd never complain if they came after me. That would be fair game. But not my sons. They had nothing to do with it. This is one of the main reasons that prompted me to collaborate with the state. I never regret giving evidence. My only regret is joining the Mafia in the first place. The final tally lost two sons. A brother, a brother in law, son in law and four nephews. They should have killed me instead, rather than condemn me to end up as a traitor. That would have been the right thing to do. Do you relate to him?

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I understand his story. I don't fully agree with it. That's not the reason to cooperate. If they killed all those family members of his, he should have killed them back, not cooperated. That doesn't make it a reason to cooperate, in my opinion. But I do know, and I heard that in that same court, the defendants could talk to their Accuser. And they told him, do you have any idea of what you're doing? And he answered, yes, I do. Do you have any idea what you did to kill innocent people to get to me? I thought that was a very, very powerful statement that he said. It made the whole Gosanosu, the whole Mafia, the whole oath, the whole everything disgusting on both ends of this thing. But I don't agree with him. I did something similar with John. I wish I had the opportunity to know what he had done when we were on the street. I never would have cooperated. I would have killed him.

[Interviewer]

Would your opinion have changed if they would have gone after somebody in your life, like one of your kids? Would your opinion on this change will merit that, or would you still notice?

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

No, I would have struck back immediately. I would have made them pay in a horrible, horrible fucking way. Once that room is off the table, then there's no rules. I would come after them, their families and everybody else what I did. Or if they didn't like Michael, they can go kill him or me. But the families and girls in Austria, in the United States, are off fucking limits. They have done nothing to warrant to be hurt, abused, especially killed. So when you get into a situation like that, I think the answer to that is Gosa Nostra in Sicily at that point is over. There is no rules. There is no omerta. There's it, and there's nothing. And I'm glad that never happened in the United States. There's a lot of guys who cooperated or did things. I'm not saying that he cooperated again, but he walked away from the life. He's still here. His family is still here. And like I said the other day, he's got a beautiful family. I can't imagine somebody wanting to kill his family because he walked away from the life. Whatever he did in return, Goza Nostra is over. There is no omerta. There's no nothing. That's my opinion.

[Interviewer]

So your opinion wouldn't have changed if anything happened to you directly, kind of like it did to you, Michael, how about yourself? When you hear him say what he's saying, and obviously it's a lot more. You feel it when he's reading it to the court rather than me reading it to you. Do you relate to anything he's saying?

[Michael]

Well, I have to agree with Sami on that. I mean, look, I mean, I consider myself a legitimate person right now, but if somebody were to go after my family, I'm causing Austria again, I wouldn't get satisfaction of them going to prison, I would want to kill them myself, not their families. Even today, even today, somebody would attack my family because of something I did, I would want to kill them. I mean, there's no justice in sending them to jail. I can't think legitimately that way when they're coming after my loved ones. Just couldn't accept it.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I agree with that 100%. You don't even have to be go to Russia a legitimate man. You go after somebody's family. I can't see them seeing loved ones in a really serious, ugly way. There's no reason for it. Why anybody, a legitimate man, an ex cop, an ex soldier, an ex, anybody wouldn't go back and try to. Why? To kill them. I was interviewed by a woman when I was in prison. She was a psychologist or something and she told me I can't kill in my interview with her. And I said, okay, you have a daughter or a son or kids? I'm not supposed to answer those questions, but I will answer. I got a daughter. Supposing somebody grabbed your little five, six year old daughter and raped her and brutally killed her and they caught him, they put him in prison, they were going to give him an electric chair, but there's nobody there to press the button. What would you do? Oh, I would press the button. So then you can't kill under the right conditions. I think all These soldiers are 18, 19 years old and they're recruited into military. It shows that everyone can kill under the right conditions.

[Michael]

And actually too, the night I got straightened out, I got made. I was told, nobody will ever bother your mother, your sister, your daughter, nobody. As long as you're part of this life, nobody will ever bother you. And as far as I'm concerned, if somebody attacked my family when I did, that's the violation of omerta.

[Interviewer]

That never happened. They never happened. Okay, so to you, they didn't do to you what they did to Tomaso?

[Michael]

No.

[Interviewer]

Okay. Do you think your father experience somewhat of what he experienced as a made man?

[Michael]

No, no, he didn't experience that. I mean, nobody ever came after our family members. Look, I'll tell you right now, I would have never walked away. I have two daughters and a son in New York. And my son is, you know, used to hang out in clubs and everywhere else. And the only thing I ever told him, I said, look, you may get some brush back because of me walking away. I said, I don't want you getting any arguments with anybody. I said, be prepared for that. But I never ever Worried about anybody hurting him because of me. I think that was one code in our life that was kept and that was honorable.

[Interviewer]

You dealt with Italian Mafia in Sicily and you had some dealings with them and you had some obviously with the folks here. What, what did you know based on your investigation on who was more powerful, the American Italian Mafia or the Sicilian Italian Mafia?

[Patrick]

Well, in Sicily at the time, the Mafia ran Sicily. They controlled the streets. They were more powerful in the sense that they had more control. But the American Mafia, even though it didn't control as many things, controlled things that were much bigger, much wealthier, made them much more powerful. I mean, to control most of Las Vegas, you know, is five times the economy of Sicily, or to control the Teamsters union, the most powerful union in the country, or even, even something like the private carding. We do 10, 11 million tons of garbage a day. And the commercial part is much more expensive than the residential part because it includes all the, all the health waste and the waste that has to be dealt with very, very carefully, even back then. So that's a very profitable business. I mean, they were, they were the garment business. I mean, they were into things where they made a lot more money than the Sicilian Mafia. But if you're talking about like controlling the society also, they had a lot more acceptance of the people with the Sicilian Mafia until the end when the people turned on them. I think killing the judges really hurt them a lot because they were both, both judges were very, very, very respected men. And the way they killed them was just savage. And I think it turned and then the Italian government made the decision to wipe them out, largely because they wanted to be in the eu. The Italian government was told, if you don't get rid of them, we're not going to deal with you as a mature country. I mean, you can't have organized crime running a big part of your country and expect to be, expect to deal with us in the eu. You've got to take care of that. And they did. They took care of it in Sicily. And the strange thing is organized crime has re emerged in Calabria and Naples. The Mafia there in Sicily is pretty much under control.

[Interviewer]

Different is the Italian Mafia. I'm talking Sicily, the one you read about, versus the Italian mafia in the States in the 80s. During that era, from what I know, very different.

[Michael]

Look, we were told straight out, and I'm sure Sammy had the same experience, you know, never go after anybody's family. You don't go after law enforcement, you don't go after politicians. That's it hands off in Italy. I mean, they go after everybody they've killed. Judges and politicians and law enforcement and families. It's a whole different thing. I mean, I was taught that Cosa Nostra here in the United States is different than that in Italy. We don't share our secrets with them. There's similar organizations.

[Interviewer]

You in the US don't share your secrets with the ones in Sicily?

[Michael]

No, we respected them. We treated them properly. Obviously, we gave them courtesy when they came over here. But I was told you don't share our secrets with them.

[Interviewer]

Are you lineage reporting to them or. No, it's silos. Meaning it's two separate organizations.

[Michael]

That's how I saw it and that's how I was told.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Definitely, in a way, it's separate, okay? They have their rules and regulations. They're in Italy. They're not in the United States. The United States are made members in the United States. We're a different organization. We're Rosa Nordstrom, but we have different things. I was in a sit down with John Gani, myself, and the boss of the Decavacanti family, where he said, they have beautiful rules where they could kill the family or they could do certain things. The answer was, well, they have beautiful rules. They could deal drugs, heroin, back and forth in the United States. Beautiful rule. They could be pimps, that's okay. But if they shylock one another, that's dishonorable. So they have a lot of weird thinking that we don't approve of here. Now, when you come here, just like you said, we respect them. We know they're made from Italy. We all know our boss Italian guys may be related to some of these people. But unless they're made, their finger is pricked and they burn that saint in their hand. In this country, they're not a friend of ours, meaning a maid member, period.

[Interviewer]

Got it? So did you fear them? Did they fear you? Or was it pure mutual respect? Did you look down at each other at all? Was it.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I don't think the United States Mafia feared anybody.

[Interviewer]

Do you agree with that?

[Michael]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Did they fear you?

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

The Italian Sicilian Mafia feared the US Italian in the United States?

[Michael]

In the United States, yes.

[Interviewer]

Why is that?

[Michael]

This was our town. It was our country. It was our ways.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

All these families in this country, there's thousands of us, and you come here with 10, 15 people, we're supposed to fear you? Now, if we went to Sicily, the roles I would be, oh, my God, I'm in a. You know.

[Interviewer]

Oh, that's not what I'm Talking. I'm not talking about if they come to you, you're in your town. If you go to them, they're in power. I'm talking about just as organizations did. They say, hey, don't cross them. Like, was their level of fear more from them to you or you to them?

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

We didn't fear them.

[Interviewer]

You didn't fear them?

[Michael]

No.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

No fear whatsoever. I was in a. I did a video in my podcast. I had a problem with the Italians from Italy. I called them the greaseballs on 18th Avenue. And I wasn't even a member. But I had permission to open my club. They broke my windows. My gombata alley boy found out. A friend of his cousins knew them and it was them. And when I went in, he had guys in there and everything. And they took me down the basement. My gumbara had a gun, so did I. And the guy told him, I asked him, did you know who broke my windows, what the reason was? He said, the reason is you have no respect. I said, respect for what? I asked my people, they gave me permission. He said, but you didn't come and ask me. Why would I have to ask you? Maybe you could go to my boss's and the Colombo family, Shorty's Barrel. And he said, no, you see where you are? If I raise my hand, you don't leave. I opened my jacket and there was the pistol. I said, you just fucked up in a horrible way. His eyes were looking at my pistol. I'm gonna blow your fucking head off in front of all your friends here. Then I'm gonna start shooting it out with them. My goomba alley boy opened up his jacket and he told me, sammy, you want me to kill him now? I was looking to get my way out of the place, not a shootout. So I said, no, not yet. Then I told him, get the up, walk me the out. You're the first guy I'm going to kill. And then I'll. Maybe me and my goomba are going to die in here, but a lot of you are going to die in there. Story is that when I went to Shorty and my people and he went to car my Persico, they took my back and they reamed these guys out. This is our country. He's with us. You should check who the fuck Sammy the Bull is. Not because of him, we're afraid of him, but who he belongs to. And that's us, the Colombo family. So there's no fear of them. And they never with me again.

[Interviewer]

What's the story behind the $800,000 hit on Rena Toro Arena. Yeah.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

They had a contract on him in Sicily.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

To kill him.

[Interviewer]

They had a contract on him to kill him in Sicily.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

But it's not a contract where you give a guy. They were at war. Toto Areno was the power there.

[Interviewer]

Boss of bosses, they called them.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Boss of bosses in Sicily. And he was killing people left and right. He even went after judges and prosecutors. He used bombs, he blew them up. All of Italy rose up against him. So the entire Sicilian Mafia said this guy overdid his hand. And I don't know, about 800,000, but we have to kill them.

[Interviewer]

What made you not fear them, though? Why were you not afraid of them?

[Patrick]

First of all, I knew it would be an aberration to kill a prosecutor. They did have rules. And their rules were no cops, no prosecutors, no reporters. Reason not being morality or anything but bad for business becomes a big deal when you do it. I would occasionally worry because they're not all together, right? I mean, Gigante's nuts. Persico could violate a rule like that. The old guys wouldn't, Castellano wouldn't. Fat Tony wouldn't. Corallo wouldn't. Then I just didn't care. I just always. I mean, I faced much. The FARC threat worried me more than their. Their threat, really? Well, sure. I mean, the Islamic fatwas that have been put out worry me more because they're more undisciplined. Maybe it was, but at the age at which it happened, I thought I was immortal.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Patrick]

Yeah. I didn't think I could die.

[Interviewer]

You thought you were immortal?

[Patrick]

I mean. I don't mean immortal.

[Interviewer]

I mean, I am someone.

[Patrick]

Yeah. I didn't think anybody could kill me. Once I had a son, I became more careful.

[Interviewer]

It seems like you almost needed to have a spirit like that for them to know you were not afraid. If anybody else could have done it, they would have already done it. It required somebody like you to match them to say, you know what? This guy's coming with law and order. We may bring fear, he brings law and order. Law and order is kind of going to win. And eventually it prevailed.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

As of yesterday, Rudy Giuliani was supposed to be here today at 2 o'.

[Narrator]

Clock.

[Interviewer]

As of yesterday, he was supposed to walk in. At 2 o' clock today, everything was already squared away. 2 o' clock yesterday. 8 o' clock yesterday, he was committed. I get a call. I step out three or four times out of the restaurant. I go outside. Finally, his assistant gets me on the phone. Rudy Wants to talk to you. Rudy and I had a 20 minute conversation. I can't be there tomorrow. I said, why not, Rudy? He says, there's two people there, one of them Michael. When Michael got out, I didn't think he was going to change his life. He says, the fact that Michael changed his life, I cannot believe it. It's a great testimony of a person that fully changes. I never thought he would even sit in the interview with Joe Pax. He didn't think the life was going to be changed. He said, I can't be there tomorrow because of Sammy. I said, why not Sammy? He said, I wish I could have put Sammy in jail for 100 years. I said, you wish you could have put Sammy in jail for 100 years? He says, yes. He says, Michael got a second chance. He took advantage of it. Sammy got a second chance, never took advantage of it. Sammy never changed. Sammy's the same person today as he was before. He took 19 people's lives. He needed to do 100 years and be in jail, if not more. He says, if I was, he says, the only room I'm willing to be in with Sammy is in a courtroom. His words yesterday. Only room that I'm willing to be in is with. I would have liked to have him be here so you guys could talk. But you, he didn't want to do it. What do you say to him? And I understand the point where you say, hey, God, he found God. He changed his life. You know, whether he did or not, in your eyes, to Rudy's eyes, whether it's real or not, the man's moved on and is doing his own thing. What's wrong with that? What do you say to what Rudy said about you yesterday on the call?

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

All I could tell Rudy is this. Now, if Rudy was coming in, I would say, okay, explain your case. This is a courtroom. And you could put me away. Here's how you're gonna put me away, Rudy. Say what I don't want to hear and I'm gonna fucking kill you right here for everybody. And I'm gonna go that to prison for the rest of my life. You put me away, but you're not gonna see it. You'll be the reason. If you that dedicated, then do it. Sit here. Try me. Sit here and do it. That's how you'll put me away.

[Patrick]

When I interviewed Assistant U.S. attorneys, particularly the ones I thought would be in the criminal division that could get in this kind of work, I would tell them, you know, you got to have a. You can't get frightened too easily because you're going to get a lot of threats. I mean you get a lot of threats anyway and most of them are just ridiculous. Julio Gazia, Julie Peters was his AKA Vito's brother in law. Threatened to kill me on the witness stand. Which of course was the best thing could ever happen because it got him convicted. He said, I'm gonna kill you, you son of a bitch. I said thank you. And I sat down.

[Interviewer]

Literally.

[Patrick]

This is what literally said, I'm gonna kill you, you son of a bitch.

[Interviewer]

It's like the Few Good Men scene where he says you can't handle the truth.

[Patrick]

And that I found out years later. It was a case that Gotti, I mean Gotti veto allowed us to prosecute because he hated his brother in law. His brother in law was either cheating on or beating up his sister. And generally they don't get involved in personal things. But this guy was so bad and he was also. He was also getting them in trouble by going too far as a loan shot, like I said, smashing the guy's hands in. And another guy beat his girlfriend up, which guy owed money. And instead of beating the guy up, this guy was in love. I mean they were in the garment business. He was in love with this beautiful young model. And they completely disfigured her. I mean there's no reason to do that. Beat the guy up, you know, beat up the model. So he was having a lot of problems in the family. So it was really weird because here we have. And I was. This is when I was an assistant U.S. attorney. Here we have a relative of the top guy in the mafia. And these people are freely testified. They don't have to put them in the witness protection program. And I would ask the bureau and this is before the bureau really knew them. This is the seventies. This is weird. Aren't these guys asking for protection? And there was a rumor then I think Veto wants him prosecuted. Well, he got prosecuted, he went to jail. Then years later when I did the entire investigation, they told me the whole story that he was that Vito because he was in the family. Vito didn't want to whack him. But he figured there are five, six witnesses out there won't shark victims. And they got visited and told it'd be perfectly fine if you go testify against him, we'll take care of you. Strange.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

A strange group when you couldn't carry things around. Vendettas towards people. And it's not just me. He does that with everything and everybody. He goes after people all the time now. He's not going after people with a gun, but he's going after people to put them away. Life, criminals, criminals, anybody. He's fucking fighting now for Trump. He's not fighting criminals. He's fighting people in the Democratic Party. He's trying to make up things. He ran to Russia to go get things to put people in prison. That's what he does. He didn't know what he got.

[Michael]

Sammy, I gotta disagree with you there. You want to stick up for the.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Democratic Party right now, I'm not. I'm not sticking up for the Democratic Party. I'm saying what this guy does. I don't care about any party right now. I do. Maybe down the road we'll talk about parties. I do care about parties and things going on like I did with Governor Cuomo when we talked. But him. Don't go after people with your fucking mouth and a pencil and destroy people's lives.

[Interviewer]

That's his job, though.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

That's not his job. It was his job when he was a prosecutor. Is not just fucking job now. He's still doing that thing and making statements like that. I'm not, and I don't give a fuck what his job is. My job was to be in the Mafia and do what I did. You could say the same thing, Patrick. You could say that was Sammy's job. Sure.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, but, but, but, but, but you can respect his job that when he was there, he was able to clean the streets with a lot of people.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Respect. I respect Frank and Matty, George, Gabriel, people in the FBI. I still talk to them. I'm friends with them. They don't carry fucking vendettas around for people. What I did helped the government in a tremendous way. They feel, they feel that everything that went on and I changed my life. I got a parole officer who was very, very good with me. Very good.

[Michael]

I believe, believe Sammy's changed his life now. But I want to get back to when we were involved in that life. Sam. We're not normal. This is the. We're not normal. Normal people don't do what we did. Cosa Nostra is not a normal lifestyle in any way shape.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Of course it's not normal.

[Michael]

Okay? So that's.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

That was my point.

[Michael]

We weren't normal.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Listen, it's. The whole world, for that matter, is really not that normal. There's governors, there's senators, there's congressmen.

[Michael]

When I.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Well, you can't pick a group. That's what General Colombo fought for. You can't pinpoint A group and say, this is not normal, Sammy, we were criminals. A lot of people did things.

[Michael]

We were criminal. I'm putting myself in the same category. We were criminals. We took an oath to commit crime on a daily basis.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

If we were. I didn't take an oath to commit crime.

[Michael]

You know what I'm saying?

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I didn't take an oath.

[Michael]

We didn't obey the law.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Law.

[Michael]

We didn't give a damn about the law.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

No.

[Michael]

It wasn't our law. We did what we wanted to give.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

A damn about right now.

[Michael]

But that's not normal, Sammy. You don't take an oath.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Then maybe I'm not normal.

[Michael]

No, I'm not. I wasn't either.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I don't believe that. They take laws and rules and regulations and it's like this guy goes around in his high horse and you don't want to.

[Michael]

All the guys that you mentioned, Gotti, Persico. We're not normal. Sammy, you got to come to that conclusion. You're in that life. And again, I'm not saying you.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

We don't know what normal means to you. I think I'm very, very normal. I love people. I love people, Sammy. When we kill people, maybe you're not normal. Maybe you don't love. Maybe you don't feel feelings.

[Michael]

I got seven children or grandchildren and a wife that I'm married to, but 37. That's banging.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Yeah, you got. Don't tell me how many kids you got.

[Michael]

I love my children.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

That's a whole nother story.

[Michael]

I love my grandchildren, of course. I love my wife.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

So that's normal.

[Michael]

That's normal.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

You're not abnormal.

[Michael]

No, you're not listening. I said when we were part of that life, we're not normal. You don't kill people in a normal. You go to. They teach police to kill criminals. They teach young kids to go into the service.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

They.

[Michael]

To kill the enemy. That's normal.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Kill criminals? That's a no to you.

[Michael]

That's normal in society, it's normal. It's law and order. You have laws and you got to enforce the laws. So that's. That's normal. I'm not saying I would.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Running away. When a kid is running away and you shoot him 14 times, what is that, Sammy?

[Michael]

I'm not. That's.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Don't.

[Michael]

Don't take an interview. No, but if somebody's coming in to rob your house with a gun and a cop shoots, and that's not talking.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

About kid running away. There's been a hundred of them. There's riots Every fucking day about people. That's not normal.

[Michael]

Sammy, do you mean to tell me that as members of Cosa Nostra, we took an oath, okay, to kill if we had to, for our own purposes? We don't like this guy. You said it 20 times. And I'm the same thing. Somebody gives me an order to go kill somebody. I don't even know the guy, I gotta kill him. That's not normal. It's not, Sammy. We weren't normal when we were part of that life. Now you got your life straightened out.

[Interviewer]

You got.

[Michael]

You're in a different place. That's normal. Trying to change and get into a normal.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

So you can't kill, huh? You can't kill.

[Michael]

Somebody comes after my family, I'll do what I have to do.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

That's not normal. Go to the police. You're normal. Go to the police.

[Michael]

Then maybe I'm still not normal. Maybe when it comes to that, I'm still not normal.

[Interviewer]

It's the debate right now. I don't mean. Yeah, so let's go back.

[Michael]

What I'm trying to say, Patrick, we can't defend. You can't come into that life and say you're living a normal life.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

It's abnormal.

[Interviewer]

No, but I think I want to go back to what? You know, to talking about Rudy. Sammy, you know, as somebody whose job was. I mean, you look at what we have right now in New York, Covid hits every country in the world. Crime goes down. New York City, crime is up. And they said it's because of COVID How the hell is crime up? People are at home. Why is crime up, Louisiana? Crime is up. De Blasio is not handling New York the way he did. You have Giuliani who came in and he cleaned house. But if you. If you look at. If you take Giuliani out, one of the things that a lot of people give him credit for is forget what he and Trump went through during his time in the 80s, what he did. A lot of millions of people in New York are grateful for the fact that the guy came and cleaned the streets of New York.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I'm grateful that he cleaned the streets.

[Michael]

He was a great man.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

You are, as a great man. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So, okay.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I mean, he got rid of people, homeless people, different crimes. He did that. My hat's off to him. I didn't like. I don't dislike him. I didn't hate him. But when you come out with a fucking vicious attitude towards things, there's no forgiveness in his heart. There's no human in Him.

[Interviewer]

But I think you guys are. I think you two are very similar.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Well, good. Then he should come in a fucking room with me and talk to me and let's see how we end up.

[Interviewer]

Similar in the following way. Similar in the following. You're. You're. When you say I'm a true La Cosa Nostra, you're a true believer is what you claim you are, which is very obvious.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

You're a true believer.

[Interviewer]

He is a true crime fighter. You mentioned Junior early wanted to be a crime fighter. Giuliani doesn't call himself a crime fighter. The world calls him a crime fighter. He woke up every morning to put guys like you and guys like you in jail. That was his job.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

But it's not his job no more.

[Interviewer]

I know it's not. But during his time. During his time.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I'm not talking about his time. I'm talking about now. He just called you up. He was coming here, give you some story about what.

[Interviewer]

Because a big part of his life.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

With me and I've changed my life just like he changes.

[Interviewer]

He doesn't think.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

He didn't kill anybody. Maybe I talk a little bit different. I didn't kill nobody. I don't want to kill anybody. Am I capable? If you hurt my family or you come in and do something, I'm capable of it. I can't help it because I got to tell the truth. I got to tell the truth. So I don't want to be a fake or phony. I don't give a fuck what people think. Well, don't think they think one thing. I tell the truth.

[Patrick]

I always thought it was critical in solving crime, whether it's the Mafia or you got to think like a criminal. And I understood them. Maybe because I grew up in an Italian American family. Maybe because they weren't alien to the idea of the Mafia. I wasn't one of those people. They first heard of the mafia. When you're 20 and you say, what the heck is that? From the time I can remember, I knew there was a Mafia and I kind of knew. Knew how they thought. I'll give you an example of that. The way we broke in on Tony Salerno. We got the warrant to break in on his social club and several months we couldn't get in because he kept the damn thing guarded all the time. We couldn't get in. There's no way. He kept it guarded 24 hours a day. And we get down to now, the holidays, I go see the judge with Judge Owen. Judge said, I can't Continue this another month. I mean, yes, you have additional probable cause, but we've been doing it now for three months. I said, okay, judge, just give me one more month. Just give me Thanksgiving. I bet Tony gives the guys off at Thanksgiving because Tony's got a good heart. The judge looked at me and said, you crazy? I said, no, no. People can be killers and still have a good heart. You know, people are complicated. I think he's going to give them part of Thanksgiving. Let's see. He said, that's a heck of a thing to. I said, put it down. As my expertise as an Italian American. Put it down. So, man, we get to Thanksgiving week. The night before Thanksgiving when they blow up the balloons. I'm out with my kids, blow up the balloons. The FBI calls me at midnight, guys are still there. Thanksgiving day, I go out to my cousin's house for our usual Thanksgiving thing. I get three calls. The FBI is now, really? Guys are still there on Thanksgiving day. And then the boss calls me and says, well, if you didn't let him go off at Thanksgiving day, he's not going to let him off. I said, come on, we still have a weekend. Lo and behold, Friday night they're gone. Saturday night they're gone. Sunday night they're gone. We got three days, no more. We own Tony Social Club and we make it into a studio. All the phones, the whole thing. It was just the gamble that he'd be soft hearted enough to let his guys get a little time off.

[Interviewer]

You can be a true believer about things and still be wrong, right? But there is right and there is wrong. That's the part I'm trying to finalize.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

But you know what bothers me?

[Interviewer]

What's that?

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

When somebody's a true believer in a certain way, a certain way of life, he thinks he was doing the right thing. That's what he believed in. And that's son I'm talking about. His father thought he was doing the right thing, believed in it. Just your conversation, how he talked and he died. You don't want to respect him. That was his life. Maybe he wasn't anything. He wasn't a rapist, he wasn't a child molester, he wasn't a fucking degenerate. He believed in our life, right, wrong or indifferent. Now a lot of his thoughts may be towards politicians and governments and stuff like that. When you try to convince him that he's wrong, he's lived a life and he knows all of that too. So yeah, it's like saying you committed tax evasion, right? We're going to put you down because you're no good. But we all want to commit tax evasion. We all hate paying taxes, so. But you took more and you cheated even more. And we hate you. We want to put you in prison. We're a crusader like him, and I think there's a limit. Let them off the fucking hook. Now, they may have done wrong things, but we pick right to the point of the bad things. What's the good things he did in life? I don't know him personally. I know a lot of guys. They take a bullet for you. They'd help your family in a hot minute. They'd come up with money for people who are broke in two seconds flat. Now we're talking about high level Carmine Persico. All of these names. That's the elite of the bad guys, so to speak. He's looking to bang him out and take over the whole fucking business. There's no love or compassion when karma Prescott and like he said, that's why they called him the stake. That's probably what he was thinking when he looked at him. Bringing in money like that with the Russians and we could grab the other guy. That's probably him 100%. But there's so many guys like my Tado and people like that. Charlie Boy, Taro's son. When they came down to kill me, Peter got it, put a contract out. You. You can't refuse. We know that. You can't refuse the order. So they went. They were afraid to come near me. They couldn't get the job done. Five months they laid on me. I always seemed one step ahead and they were afraid. They went to town's son, Charlie boy. He was a hunter. He could shoot the eyes out of a fucking eagle at 200 yards. Great hunter. Bear the everything. So they went and they said, tom, we could hit Sammy at a distance. We see him, can't get close to him. He's too smart. He's too cagey. He set up for this thing. The first time. I knew they were going to come, so I was always ready. And they sensed that. So they wanted somebody who can kill me from a distance. Peter Gotti called him in. Boss, Little boss Huck. He told him, go and fuck yourself. Now, to me, he just risked his life. He knew the relationship I had with his father. And I had one with him even before I knew his father. We grew up as kids. He wouldn't do it. There's a lot of situations where there's good and I can't stand when we say the Mafia like you say, I agree with you. Some of these acts are insane acts, crazy acts, whatever. But these people, I don't think they're totally out of. I think they live. A lot of them live normal fucking lives. They live two lives.

[Interviewer]

But they broke the law. But they broke the law.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

They broke the law.

[Michael]

See, man, let me tell you this.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

They broke the law.

[Michael]

You could. You could make all the explanation you want. My father would not listen to you, would not talk to you, would not give you this much after what you did. And if he knew I was sitting here, I don't know what he would want to do with me. He would be so angry now.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Why? Because as far as you're saying, he's like me?

[Michael]

As far. No. As far as my father's concerned, you a rat. You violated the oath.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Yeah, when you're cooperating. Welcome to Walgreens. Looking for a holiday gift?

[Interviewer]

Sort of. My cousin Freddie showed up to surprise us.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Oh, sounds like.

[Advertiser]

Like a real nice surprise.

[Interviewer]

Exactly. So now I have to get him a gift, but I haven't gotten my bonus yet. So if we can make it something really nice, but also not break the bank, that'd be perfect.

[Advertiser]

How about a Keurig for 50% off?

[Interviewer]

Bingo savings all season. The holiday road is long. We're with you all the way. Walgreens offer valid November 26 through December 27. Exclusions apply.

[Patrick]

Hello, friends. Guess who. That's right. It is I, the Replacer. Once again, I've been called on. So you can play the new Call of Duty Black Ops 7, with three expansive modes, 18 multiplayer maps, and the tastiest zombie gameplay you've ever freaking seen.

[Michael]

Call of Duty Black Ops 7, available now. Rated M for mature. Now I don't feel that way. I see who you are. I happen to love your son, Jarrod. Jarrod and I talk a lot. I like this. I like him a lot. He's a good person. And you have something to do with that, I'm sure. I mean it. I mean, he cares about you. My father would not give you the time of day. He'd probably put a bullet in your head if he saw you. That's how.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

That's.

[Michael]

That's not normal.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

But don't make me mad at him. I understand where he's coming from. It doesn't make me mad at him.

[Michael]

But it's not normal.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Maybe it's not normal for him. Maybe it's double not normal for me not to care. That's what he's trained to Do. But he.

[Michael]

But at 103, he wouldn't even listen to you.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I don't know if he would do that at 103. When he was young. Well, I don't know if he would stand a chance against me.

[Michael]

No, I don't mean that. I mean, I don't.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I don't mean.

[Michael]

I'm not telling you you're going to go to the fight.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

No, I'm going to fight. I'm definitely not talking about fighting, but.

[Michael]

All I'm saying because I know. Because he discussed you with me.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Yeah, yeah. Because once you cooperate. But before I cooperated, he would agree with everything with me. Me and him would probably hit it off 100%. And I would have respect for him for what he did by not cooperating and some of the things he did in the life. And maybe he would understand me and respect me for some of the things I did in our life, but we wouldn't put each other down. When you cooperate and you break the fucking rules and you went out. Yeah, I agree with you. He probably feel that way, but a lot of guys don't. A lot of guys don't. Till today. And I hate to take away and knock, like. Like a Giuliani could just come with a paintbrush and just knock down everybody. Well, you say put everybody away. He's a psychopath too.

[Michael]

You just said that. You see, here's it. You just said that was my father's training. This is how he grew up. This is what he knows. Well, it's Giuliani, the same thing. That's the training. That's what he knows.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Well, if you say your father is not a psychopath, but he's all fucked up with that training. So is he. So is he. That he can't come here with Patrick, Me and you. More me than you, and sit down and give an answer. All I want to see him is in the court so I can put him in prison for a hundred fucking years. Then Mark. Then what do you do? I wish you would have came, go home and jerk off. Does that get you off?

[Michael]

No, I think that's what he really believes. Listen, I've had.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

That's what your father really believes. Okay?

[Michael]

But it's wrong.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

But then it's wrong for him. You can't make him right.

[Michael]

Who gave him right? I said I wish he was here.

[Interviewer]

Say law and order. But you said you respect law and order.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I respect law and order. Cops go out and they save people and they do certain things. They stop crime. Not somebody who's obsessed. Not that guy who got this black kid and put his knee on his neck. The guy is screaming, I can't breathe. That's wrong. Law and order. And this cop, I don't think he.

[Interviewer]

Would agree with that, though. I don't think Rudy would say put 8 minutes and 46 seconds. No, no.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

But when you're saying, don't make excuses for this is law and order.

[Interviewer]

So we have no in this. In this part. So we're going specific. You're going general. I'm asking specific as I can with Rudy. I'm specific to Rudy. I'm not general to Rudy.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Right, right, right. So I'm saying that his.

[Michael]

I think he should have came. I think he should have came. What's the harm is sitting down and talking. Maybe he would have seen something different with you. He should have came. I agree with you. I don't think he should have.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

You should have came.

[Michael]

Yeah, I believe he should have came. I wish he would have come because we both have things to say to him and maybe he, you know, he. He sees you from a distance. He knows Sammy to guy that killed 19 guys and was a mafia guy all his life. That's what is in his head. He doesn't see Sammy like this. I wish he would have came.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Well, I don't know what would have happened, to tell you the truth, because his obsession with things and maybe he would have been a lot calmer in front of me. Maybe, I don't know. But his obsession with. With these things beyond me. It's law and order. But he's hurting our people. He's hurting friends. He's hurting good people all across the board. No, I'm asking. He's going after everybody and his mother with an obsession.

[Patrick]

Who?

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I don't know. Whoever he goes after. He wants to see me in court. Well, he. He don't even know.

[Michael]

He just said I. I don't think that's what he's doing right now.

[Interviewer]

He doesn't think you're a change man. He thinks Michael's a change man. He doesn't. He doesn't think you're a change man. Meaning, you know, so when did he.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Come and check it out?

[Interviewer]

He says he refused to do so. Listen, I was the one trying to coordinate it, so I'm the one that's, you know, encouraging that from happening.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

I don't know why I should be, you know, being preached to by you and you that I should be feel sorry for this guy or not be mad.

[Michael]

I just said I thought he should.

[Interviewer]

Have been here, I'm saying long.

[Michael]

I agree with, I agree with you on that. I don't think he should judge you at this point in time. I think.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

How do you expect me to react to this punk ass bitch who won't sit here and, and I'm not. How do you want me to react? Oh yes, you know what? I agree it's wrong and order. He's right, I'm wrong. Fuck him and write in wrong. Because if that's his opinion, if he's obsessed and he's not open minded enough to do something and sit down and see if I'm a turnman or Michael's. He already thinks he's a turnman. But see, check it out. Are you afraid of him?

[Interviewer]

No.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

You think I'm a turnman or you think I'm just a fucking complete psycho? Answer that.

[Interviewer]

I think, you know, life has, life has.

[Michael]

You really put him on the spot.

[Interviewer]

No, no, no. I'm really thinking about giving an educator.

[Michael]

Think about that.

[Narrator]

Coming up on Mafia States of America.

[Interviewer]

Which rackets would be the best ones for you to get into? Make money?

[Michael]

Today I'd be investigating a gas business again.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

What I would do right now, I think is give out loans. Small loans, bigger loans. Shylock loans. Yes, more or less. Not shylocking, but. Because today in society most people are broke.

[Michael]

We used to sit on our social clubs and come up with all of these ideas. We're going to attack this industry. We're going to go after that business. It didn't happen that way normally. Not my experience. A lot of times a guy in that industry would come to me. I mean, that's how I got in the gas business. I didn't. All of a sudden a light went off and I said, hey, I'm going to steal tax money. Guy comes to me, he's got an idea for a scam. He wants me to help him, maybe finance him, protect him. There's some guy's trying to shake him down and they come to you because they believe you're going to protect them. You got money, you can help them. You can, you know, blow this up. They're the ones with the ideas that want to do something within their company or within their industry.

[Sammy 'The Bull' Gravano]

Oh beautiful for spacious skies forever Waves of gray for purple mountain majesties above the fruited plain. America, American got champions. Oh beautiful fire. Strike.