Mafia States of America | Episode 9 - "The Mob Today"

Summary

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PBD Podcast — Mafia States of America | Episode 9: "The Mob Today"

Date: November 15, 2025
Host: Patrick Bet-David
Guests: Sammy "The Bull" Gravano, Michael Franzese

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode of the PBD Podcast is a dynamic roundtable conversation focusing on the evolution of the American Mafia — how it has changed from its heyday to the present day. Hosts and former mobsters reminisce about old operations, analyze the current state of organized crime, and explore what the future could hold for criminal enterprises. Along the way, they reflect on mob traditions, changing values, and even hypothesize how mobsters might operate in modern industries like crypto, art, sports, and politics.

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Key Discussion Points

The State of the Mob Today

• Major Decline in Power

  • The Mafia no longer holds the same sway over industries, unions, or politicians as it did in the 80s and earlier.
    • "It's a shell of its former self. It's made up of really fairly low level wannabes... they don't control major international businesses, they don't control local businesses." — Documentary Narrator [04:39]
    • Sammy: “It’s not even close to what it was back then. Back then... it was like the Jesse James days. It was the cowboy days. People bodies, people shootings, robberies, you name it...” [03:58]
  • Media coverage has dramatically decreased, a sign of the mob’s reduced visibility and, perhaps effectiveness.

• Loss of Traditional Rackets

  • They’ve lost control over major unions and legitimate businesses.
  • Core income today seems to be in smaller crimes: Wall Street manipulations, credit card fraud, diminished gambling and loan sharking.

Notable Quote

“The government became the bookmakers, the government became the drug dealers.”
— Patrick [04:34]

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If They Were Mobsters Today: Modern Rackets Hypotheticals

• PPP Loan Fraud, The Gas Scheme, Art Market, Payday Loans

  • Patrick would return to the gas tax scam: “If it were me, Patrick, I’d be investigating a gas business again.” [06:29]
  • Sammy would seek legitimacy: “Let’s go to Hollywood. Let’s go make some money, bro... We're not going back to prison.” [06:39]
  • Both joke about art scams and the manipulation in modern art markets.
    • Sammy recounts a failed art theft: "It was so rare I couldn’t even sell the f**ing thing... then it broke. I didn’t get 3 cents for this thing.”* [09:04]
  • Payday and car loans as a “legit” form of shylocking: "So if I was in the mafia, I’m not going to get hurt with that and I'm gonna get my money back real quick..." — Sammy [09:53]

• Involvement in Crypto and Recruiting Hackers

  • Both express that a modern mob would investigate–if not weaponize–cryptocurrencies and hackers.
    • Patrick: “Yes, the answer is Yes, I think we’d research it.” [12:46]
    • Sammy: “Who are we gonna rob with this? No, no, this is legit? So if I buy it, it’s legit?” [12:50]
  • Recruiting skilled outsiders (like hackers) is not new: criminals have always relied on “industry insiders” for ideas:
    • “A guy in that industry would come to me...they come to you because they believe you’re going to protect them... They’re the ones with the ideas...” — Patrick [13:24]

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Racial, Ethnic, and Gender Barriers in the Mob

• Italian-Only Rule:

  • Historically, one had to be Italian on both sides; later changed to father’s side only. Guests reflect on how this hurt and helped the mob’s cohesion and identity.
    • “It was a mistake…your mother…she has an influence on you just as much, if not more than the father.” — Sammy [16:14]
    • “It’s not that it was a racist thing. It’s just… it’s heritage.” — Patrick [18:58]
  • Other groups (Blacks, Jews, Irish, etc.) were respected as business partners but not admitted as “made men.”

• Racism and Social Circles in Prison:

  • Patrick shares: “That’s not being racist. You’re in prison, you hang out with who you’re comfortable with..." [19:15]

• Attitudes Toward LGBTQ Members:

  • Rare but significant stories about gay mobsters, including the killing of an underboss for his sexuality. Sammy argues it should not have been a killing offense.
    • “I believe that the two captains who heard this were more interested in his seat. Killing him and taking over that seat. And that did happen.” — Sammy [23:44]

• Women in the Mafia:

  • Firm rejection of women as “made” members — for both practical and traditional reasons.
    • “That expression, a woman scorned? Who the f** wants to put guns in their head?”* — Sammy [27:03]
    • “That’s no life for a woman, in my opinion.” — Patrick [27:13]

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Mobster Leadership, Personality, and Modern Comparisons

• Who Today Would Make a Good Mob Boss?

  • The group assesses contemporary public figures (Trump, Obama, Cuomo, Dana White, Jay-Z, Jared Kushner) on “mob qualities.”
    • Trump: too public/flamboyant, would get “taken out” [28:41]
    • Hillary Clinton: “as unscrupulous as any mob guy I ever met... but she wouldn’t be a good mobster.” — Patrick & Sammy [27:44]
    • Dana White: has roughness, but lacks heritage.
    • Jay-Z: “I see him as... obviously, as a street guy.” — Patrick [30:41]
    • Kushner: behind-the-scenes operator, likened to Robert Duvall’s consigliere in The Godfather [31:16]
    • “Our type of guys are different... low key. Not needing the attention, kind of just to themselves, but powerful.” — Patrick [30:52]

• Mob Boss Qualities

  • The most effective mob leaders are low-key, charismatic, family-oriented, and able to demand respect without showing off.
    • “Somebody who’s extremely charming, extremely charismatic, great with people... But when he takes down the biggest agent at KGB... he doesn’t brag about it to anybody.” — Interviewer, quoting former CIA disguise chief [31:25]

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Personal Reflections, Heritage, and Ethical Lines

• Heritage as Core Value

  • Both guests emphasize heritage and family tradition as central to Mafia identity, comparing it to other groups’ cultural roots.
    • “It’s family... when it came out in the 12th century, this thing started when Italy, Sicily specifically, was invaded... they stuck together as families and they fought the enemy.” — Sammy [35:56]
    • Patrick notes the parallel: “If you said to me, could I be a Crip or Blood? ...It’s not my heritage. I don’t understand it.” [37:04]

• Limits and Morality

  • The host is praised for qualities that would have made him a good mobster — except his unwillingness to kill simply on orders, which both guests say would “disqualify” him.
    • “That’s the bottom line, Patrick. So all of those are there... but couldn’t do that, you’re eliminated.” — Patrick [35:29]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The government became the bookmakers, the government became the drug dealers.” — Patrick [04:34]
• “It’s a shell of its former self… They’re basically drugs. Still, some gambling… loan sharking. But the revenues are much, much smaller.” — Documentary Narrator [04:39]
• “Let’s go to Hollywood. Let’s go make some money, bro. Legitimately. Because that’s where the money is. And we’re not going to go back.” — Sammy [06:39]
• “I put it away and then it broke. I didn’t get 3 cents for this thing.” — Sammy, on failed art theft [09:04]
• “It was a mistake ...your mother... she has an influence on you just as much, if not more than the father.” — Sammy, on the Italian-only rule [16:14]
• “That expression, a woman scorned? Who the f** wants to put guns in their head?”* — Sammy [27:03]
• “She is as unscrupulous as any mob guy I ever met... but she wouldn’t be a good mobster.” — Patrick, on Hillary Clinton [27:44]
• “Could you do it? ...If you had to kill somebody?” — Patrick [34:58]
• “You got to have the qualities, but if you couldn’t do that, you’re eliminated.” — Patrick [35:29]

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Key Timestamps

• 03:06–04:39: Discussion on how the Mafia today is radically diminished from its heyday.
• 06:29–07:46: Hypotheticals about modern rackets, including PPP loans, gas tax scams.
• 09:04–10:53: Art scams and the unlikely profitability of stolen art.
• 12:46–13:24: Discussion of the Mafia’s potential involvement in crypto and hacking.
• 16:14–18:58: The Italian-only rule and the question of heritage vs. inclusion.
• 20:43–24:44: Treatment of gay members in the mob — real-life stories and moral debates.
• 27:03–28:04: Why women were barred from the Mafia.
• 28:38–31:22: Modern public figures and their (in)compatibility with mob life.
• 34:57–37:28: Heritage, ethics, and what it would take for someone today to truly “fit” in the Mafia.

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Tone & Style

The episode blends tough-guy storytelling, humor, nostalgia, and candid self-reflection — never losing the gritty, unapologetic authenticity the hosts and guests are known for. Jokes cut through heavy themes, and the conversation is both deeply personal and openly analytical about American organized crime’s past and present.

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For listeners wanting insight on how American organized crime has evolved and how its values intersect with (or diverge from) modern society, this episode offers both wisdom and wit — straight from those who lived it.

Transcript

[Sammy]

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[Interviewer Patrick]

Sort of. My cousin Freddy showed up to surprise us.

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[Interviewer Patrick]

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[Interviewer Patrick]

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[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

Previously on Mafia States of America.

[Sammy]

I did something similar with John. I wish I had the opportunity to know what he had done when we were on the street. I never would have cooperated. I would have killed him.

[Patrick]

I consider myself a legitimate person right now. But if somebody were to go after my family, I'm cousin Austro again. I wouldn't get satisfaction of them going to prison. I would want to kill them myself.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

With the Sicilian Mafia, I think killing the judges really hurt them a lot. And the way they killed them was just savage.

[Sammy]

America. Got judges. From sea to sh.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

You know, they say the Mafia should.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Have adapted with the time.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

They should have changed, made more people.

[Patrick]

Didn't have to be Italian.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

I don't think that would have made a difference. If anything, the old mafiosis, they didn't rat. Again, fairness to them, they only had to spend a couple of years in jail. But when you're facing 40 years and they close that door on you.

[Interviewer Patrick]

The mop then versus the mop today. Does the mop still exist today in America the way it did in the 80s? Or is it dramatically different?

[Sammy]

Dramatically different.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Are there any big earners today? Anybody making real money today? Any rackets that they're capitalizing, where they're making? 10, 20 a year?

[Patrick]

Listen, I don't know personally that at all. But I know guys on the street are pretty resourceful. They figure things out. I don't know what kind of money they're making now. I can't answer that. I will tell you this, though. Patrick and Samuel backed me up when I was on the street. I read the New York Post, the Daily News, almost every day. There wasn't a day went by when there wasn't a story about us, about the mob? Not a day. I read the New York Post every morning online. Maybe every six months you'll see a little story. So what does that tell you? Did they get so smart that they're undercover and they're not doing anything? Or is it really not what it used to be? To me it's no, it's not anywhere what it was.

[Sammy]

It's not even close to what it was back then. Back then I always used to label it back then I grew up in. It was like the Jesse James days. It was the cowboy days. People bodies, people shootings, robberies, you name it went on. It was a whole different thing. Now I think from what I heard, it's mostly little, you know, Wall street crimes and credit card crimes and stuff like that. They lost control of most of the unions. They lost all the power things, gambling and stuff like that.

[Patrick]

The government became the bookmakers, the government became the drug dealers.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

They've been taken out of institutional situations. They no longer control the Teamsters, they no longer control any appreciable number of politicians. They don't control major industries. It's a shell of its former self. It's made up of really fairly low level wannabes I think they like to call them, but they don't, they don't, they don't control major international businesses, they don't control local businesses. They're basically drugs. Still, some gambling, but gambling has decreased quite a bit. Loan sharking. Still, the revenues are much, much smaller. And they are by no means the most violent group now. I mean there are groups that have surpassed them in the kind of meal, you know.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Not Italian though.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

Yeah, not Italian.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Not Italian.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

I mean even, even 20 years ago, the Chinese, the Russian organized crime had surpassed them in violence to the extent they now exist. They're no different than any other organized crime group and probably weaker than some.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Let's just say you worked and you put the hat on. You put the hat on of 35 year old Sam. You put the hat on of, you know, 1987, Michael, you're making money. You're, you're doing 84, Michael, you're making your 6, 8 million a week. Which rackets would you be in? Would you be looking at crypto? Would you be in, you know, bitcoin? Would it be NFTs? Just the other day, an Italian artist sculpture sold a invisible sculpture in an auction for 18,000 hours. I mean, it's like that sounds like somebody's connected to the Gambino family doing that, right? You hear Some of these rackets nowadays. Which rackets would be the best ones for you to get in to make money today I'm sure the feds wouldn't mind knowing.

[Patrick]

If it were me, Patrick, I'd be investigating a gas business again.

[Interviewer Patrick]

You'd still be in the gas business.

[Patrick]

I would do the research if I was.

[Sammy]

Now what would I look at? I would look at Michael. Go partners with him. Let's go in business. Let's go to Hollywood. Let's go make some money, bro. Legitimately. Because that's where the money is. And we're not going to go back.

[Patrick]

To prison, not you.

[Sammy]

And we're not going to do anything stupid.

[Patrick]

Let me make sure I answer right. You were talking about if I was going back into the mob.

[Interviewer Patrick]

I'm talking about you're in the mob today. You're not this Sammy and Michael. Today you're in the mop. Today it's the 30 year old Michael, the 30 year old Sammy. That's Sammy today. Are you taking a banana and digging a grace sticker and putting it on the wall and saying, this is art, $180,000 seller.

[Patrick]

I'll tell you why I told you.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Because art is getting pretty.

[Patrick]

I told you that I had and my wife would be very upset with me if I said it again. I told you I have no moral issue with taking money from the government. I would look into that because the government right now is getting beat over the head with all these PPP loans. They're getting fraud all over the place. They're the easiest target in the world.

[Sammy]

See what happened now this is what I will look at today. His wife is going to be mad at him. He's a wuss. He became a wuss. He's worried about his wife. Years ago he'd been shooting him, right now he's worried about his wife. I do the same thing. My wife. What are you doing? Where are you going?

[Interviewer Patrick]

Any rackets on your end or. No. Would you have anything, by the way, just since you guys didn't go there, maybe I'll go there. They say 70% of art is fake. And it's, you know, fabricated. You hear stories. You hear a story. One time a guy hears Pablo Picasso's dying. So he decides to get a local painter. Young guy says, listen, can you paint something like Picasso? He does. He says, give it to me. Gives a 50 bucks, takes it, says Picasso. There's a young guy that admires you, wants to take a picture with you. You mind if I come and show you his artwork? Tell me what you think about it. Picasso finally agrees. He takes the painting, he shows her. He says, no, it's terrible, not nice. He says, do you mind if I take a picture with you to show the fact that I can prove to him that I met with you? The guy says, yeah, sure. So finally he takes a picture with Picasso, waits for Picasso to die. And he comes down and says, this is Picasso's last painting. Sells it for millions, makes a lot of money. You know, there's a lot of, you know, ugliness and manipulation in the art industry. Did you guys ever play the art game? Was it easy to manipulate and make money? Was there any rackets there or No?

[Sammy]

I once went on a score and we stole a piece of art. It was a statue. Looked like a little pyramid. Supposed to be very rare, very expensive. It was so rare I couldn't even sell the fucking thing. I put it away and then it broke. It fell and it broke. I didn't get 3 cents for this thing. No. Here's what I would do if I was in the.

[Interviewer Patrick]

That's a true story.

[Sammy]

That's a true story.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Okay, got it.

[Sammy]

That's what it was. That's a true story. But it's a crazy story, but it's true. What I would do right now, I think is give out loans, small loans, shylock loans. Yes, more or less. Not shylocking, but because today in society most people are broke. So small loans, 500,000, 1500.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Today that's considered legit though.

[Sammy]

It's legit now.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sammy]

So if I was in the mafia, I'm not going to get hurt with that and I'm gonna get my money back real quick. They do it on cars. People you got bad credit, will pay for it. The car, you know, it's a five thousand dollar car. Put two thousand down, I'll give you the other three thousand. I could always confiscate your car if you don't pay it. And you can make money like that. You have like a bull.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Bull. And it would be Bulls. Payday loans.

[Sammy]

Bulls.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Bulls. Like send me the bull. Like it's a bull.

[Sammy]

Oh, yeah.

[Interviewer Patrick]

So that'd be the logo that paid their loans.

[Sammy]

Yeah.

[Interviewer Patrick]

CEO Sammy Guerrado.

[Sammy]

Yeah. And you're not gonna go to prison and you could make a ton of money. There is people who are paying the ass that don't. They're not good payers. But you could confiscate cars. You could. Not without beating them up or doing anything.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Did you do anything with art or. No. Were you Ever in.

[Patrick]

Yeah, I'm trying to think of the name. Cause only maybe three years ago, some guy from Vegas tried to pull an odd scam on me. Bouquet or. What the heck's the name of that guy? He died. He had this crazy art that, if you look at it, you thought your kid might have just went there with his hand and put something on there. But he was a big artist. Boquette. I'm trying to think of the name. And I actually set up a deal with an auction house out of New York to come and look at the art. He had it in the same place where Steve Wynne had his art. And it was a whole thing for months and months and months. Turned out to be fraudulent art. You know, the guy never had it. It's such a. There's so much art.

[Interviewer Patrick]

You never dealt with art back then?

[Sammy]

No. I went to a museum one time, and I was with a woman. She took me to this museum and I was walking around and he had all this weird art that looked weird. And I went by and there was a brown pile of stuff. I said, what is that? She says, a pile of shit. Pile of shit. It's expensive there. I said, let's get out of here. I'm not into art. I'm not into that. Let's get out of here.

[Patrick]

I seen Jerry Gutterman. He was a big developer. I had a deal with him and I went up to his offices back in the day, and he was showing off his art. And he said, this was like 25. I had no appreciation for fraud whatsoever. My wife tries to take me to the Getty Center.

[Sammy]

I don't care about it.

[Patrick]

Until I went to the Louvre. Louvre in France. And I was blown away. I could have stayed all day. It was unbelievable. You got to have appreciation for art when you go there. But before that, I didn't, but he showed me. It's like $25 million of the baht. And all I'm thinking is, how are we going to steal this stuff? That's all I care about, what it looked like or anything else.

[Sammy]

How do you get rid of it?

[Patrick]

Well, you steal it first, you worry about it afterwards, you know, at least once, you know, once you got in your possession and you got it. But I didn't, by the way, because we were partners.

[Interviewer Patrick]

What do you think about bitcoin? What do you think about bitcoin? Like you think it sits. Would the mob. Would you guys have any involvement with bitcoin today? It's decentralized, you know?

[Patrick]

Yes, the answer is Yes, I think we'd research it.

[Interviewer Patrick]

You would have done them all?

[Sammy]

I probably. I would have investigated it and I would have talked with people and the people who run it and I would talk to them. Who are we gonna rob with this? No, no, this is legit. So if I buy it, it's legit? Yeah. You realize that you're talking with.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Would you be in a business today of recruiting hackers and turning them into make men?

[Sammy]

You want me to go hack people?

[Interviewer Patrick]

No, no, no. But what I'm saying is, would you recruit hackers to be associates for you, to help you.

[Patrick]

Patrick, you made a good point. I'm going to tell you, you know, a lot of people think, and Sammy, maybe you'll back me up, that we used to sit around in our social clubs and come up with all of these ideas. We're going to attack this industry. We're going to go after that business. It didn't happen that way normally. Not my experience. A lot of times a guy in that industry would come to me. I mean, that's how I got in the gas business. I didn't. All of a sudden the light went off and I said, hey, I'm going to steal tax money. Guy comes to me, he. He's got an idea for a scam. He wants me to help him, maybe finance him, protect him. There's some guys trying to shake him down and they come to you because they believe you're going to protect them. You got money, you can help them, you can, you know, blow this up. They're the ones with the ideas that want to do something within their company or within their industry. That happened to me so often.

[Sammy]

That's true. If you look at the Luton Zeist, they were sitting in a bar and a guy who works in the place, hey, they're delivering money, all cash. And it went to them and they went and rob it. But he's 100%.

[Interviewer Patrick]

So it came to you a lot.

[Sammy]

A lot. We're sitting in a club playing Pinocchle, drinking coffee and hanging out and bullshitting and whatever, or maybe we're gonna go to the track tonight. And some people have these ideas. Unions were enormous moneymakers, enormous because we can use the power of the unions just like they do now. They still do it.

[Interviewer Patrick]

How about baseball cards? Ever baseball cards or no? Was that any? Nowadays you're seeing baseball cards selling for you.

[Sammy]

Just got my baseball card.

[Interviewer Patrick]

I got one of them somebody just.

[Patrick]

Gave me for my birthday. I don't think, you know, I gotta look at it. But A Mickey mantle rookie card.

[Interviewer Patrick]

52 tops.

[Patrick]

Yeah. Just gave it to me.

[Interviewer Patrick]

That's gotta be a good friend.

[Patrick]

No, I hardly know him.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Give you 52 tops. Rookie card.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Interviewer Patrick]

You need more friends like that.

[Patrick]

Happy birthday, Michael. He knows I'm a Yankee fan.

[Sammy]

Listen, Michael, I sent that guy. It's a fail.

[Patrick]

It might be. I haven't tried it, but I. I got a guy that's. I got a guy. I got a guy that's into that, so I'm gonna send it to him. And then they also gave me. I got a guy. They also gave me scorecards from 1951. Yankee scorecards, you know, I don't know if they're worth anything.

[Interviewer Patrick]

You think you guys limited yourself by only allowing Italians to be associates or made men? You know, you hear John A. Light, we've had him on. And the documentary you did with John A. Light? I think not. You didn't do it with them, but they chose you. And I think it's in Newsday. He's Albanian, and he says, hey, I was more of a made man than others were. But the system was you had to be Italian to become a made man. Do you think that was the right thing to do? Or do you think you guys should have opened it up to more people?

[Sammy]

Originally, you had to be Italian on both ends. Your father's end and your mother's end. Later on in life, when it came to the United States, there were so many intermarriages and stuff. So you had to be Italian strictly on your father's end because you carry his name. It didn't matter who your mother was. It was a mistake, because you're not strictly what your dad is. You may carry his name, but your mother is there when you're sick. She nurtures you. She gives birth to you. Everybody has a relationship with their mother. She's there when you're in trouble. She's there when you need homework, get something done. So she has an influence on you just as much, if not more than the father. So a lot of people like John Jr. He's not full Italian. He's Italian on his father's end. I believe his mother's a Russian Jew. And it affected the mob in. In a lot of ways. It changed the thinking. And then they were not in Italy any longer. They were born and raised here just like I was. I'm not from the other side. So we are first or second generations. The whole thinking, the mentality was different than. So it changed the Mafia. So. And I think they made mistakes you.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Think they should have just accepted anybody or you think they should have kept it true Someone had to be Italian in the family?

[Sammy]

I think both.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Oh, you think both should have been?

[Sammy]

Yeah, I think they should have stayed with that.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Kind of like how US is. If you want to be a president, you have to be born. You have to be born in the US to be a president. Okay, do you agree with that or you think you guys should open it up and allow others to get in?

[Patrick]

I don't think we should open it up. And you know, Patrick, so many guys on the street that were. That wanted to be made and couldn't be made, were. Will always turn around and say, ah, I was better than the made guys. I hear it all the time. Well, I didn't want to be made. I didn't know a guy in the street that started out in that life that really didn't want to be made.

[Sammy]

Yeah, that's true.

[Patrick]

But they always say I didn't.

[Sammy]

It's not that it's a racist thing. That's all we want is Italians now. We dealt with blacks, we dealt with Jews. We dealt with people from different countries. Your background, history. We dealt with people, and it was not a bad thing. We respected them if they were decent and good and thought along our lines. You go back with the black people to Cotton Club and they were there forever. The Jews with Meyer Lansky and all of them, they were there forever. So it's not that it was a racist thing. It's just.

[Patrick]

It's heritage.

[Sammy]

It's heritage in the thing you don't want. You got, you know, certain groups, whether it's a black group or an Hispanic group, it's a group of them. They don't really want an Italian guy or a German guy or an Irish guy in that area.

[Patrick]

Yeah, and you know what? It's a good point. When I was in prison, you know, sometimes I used to hang out with the black guys a lot. Not because of any other than that. When I was in the yard, few times I was there, they would play ball and I would play ball. And there was a group of Italians, we were in Terminal island, and Rosario Gambino was my cellmate. Good guy from Philippe. I know, but. Yeah, but Pete Milano was the boss, alleged boss out there in California. And him and a group of guys used to hang out together. And I was always courteous to them and everything, but I never hung out with them. And I used to play ball with the black guys. We'd mess around and the black guys used to say to me, michael, those guys are racist. They don't play with us. I said, they're not racist. I said, they're more comfortable with each other. They eat the same, they talk the same, they play cards the same. They have the same heritage. That's not being racist. You're in prison, you hang out with who you're comfortable with. That doesn't mean they don't like you. I said, you guys hang out with one another. Yeah, but you play with us. I said, because I like to play ball with you. That's how I do my time. But a lot of guys thought that we were racist because they were just comfortable. Comfortable with their own kind.

[Sammy]

And it's not true. And he's right. In prison, there's always the black guys hang out, the Hispanic guys hang out, the white guys hang out. And even the white guys break up into groups, whether they're Italians or Irish or something else. So it's not really a racist thing. It's what you're comfortable with.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Did you guys ever have any gay gangsters or, you know, gay maid men back in the day?

[Sammy]

Yes.

[Patrick]

I was gonna say there was talk of it. Yeah.

[Sammy]

No, there was a few. There was the underboss and the Cavalcante family that killed him because of it.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Johnny boy.

[Sammy]

Johnny Boy.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Johnny John Del Motto, Johnny d'.

[Patrick]

Amato.

[Sammy]

Yeah, but. And there was another guy, I believe, in the Genovese family. And I was in a major situation down over this thing because I was so against this. He was with a girl. They were swingers. They went to a swinger club. And she went into a room with two guys. He watched for a while, and then he went out in the hall and he met up with a black guy. She came out, she was done. She came out, she watched, she saw him. And she told two capos in the DeCalcanti family what she saw. And they went to the boss and told him. And they said, we should kill him because he'll be a disgrace to the family. And they did kill. And I sat on that. I was pretty friendly with him. He was an underboss, I was an underboss. And in my opinion, it's not a killing offense. He can't be the underboss. So I was in prison where a guy, jb, who's heavyweight and gave me enough ma. I was doing time with him, and he told me in the library when we were sitting there, they had to do that, Sammy. Really? Why? Well, can't be the other boss. Yeah, but they don't kill them. You take them down to just a maid member. Behave yourself. Whatever you want to do behind closed doors, that's your business. You can't walk around like that. You can't do this. So he disagreed with me. So I said, all right, J.B. you're going home. He was supposed to go home a little bit before me died in prison. So I said, you got a son in all might and a daughter, right? Yeah. What if your son, when you went home, told you that he's actually gay? He's gonna come out of the closet. Would you kill him? Come on, Sam. That's my son. What about your daughter? She came and says she's gay. Did you kill her? No. Ingalls and Usher, we're brothers. Why the fuck would you kill your brother? You won't kill your kids for that. Why would you kill your brother? So the remedy is to take him down. It's not the position he should be in. Let him live his life. Talk to him a little bit and tolerate him if he comes. Ridiculous. You could chase him. You're no longer a friend of ours. Go somewhere else and live, and you'll be all right. But killing the guy. I believe that the two captains who heard this were more interested in his seat. Killing him and taking over that seat. And that did happen. Was that kid Green and another one. I can't think of his name right now. And I think it was horrible. I don't think it's a killing offense, but it's happened very rare that we know of. I don't think too many people investigated these things. But it's not a killing offense. It shouldn't happen, but it happened in a couple of places. That one because. Very well known because that woman lived and went on a TV show and talked about it in an interview or something, and it became more well known.

[Interviewer Patrick]

You guys both knew about it. Families knew about this, knew about it.

[Patrick]

You know, but in my. I agree with Sammy. I don't think he'd kill somebody for that. But the guy wouldn't be able to last in that life if you knew he was gay at that time anyway.

[Sammy]

And there's a guy who's in the Genovese family. He lasted a long time, never got killed. They didn't kill him. Chin didn't kill him.

[Patrick]

I'm surprised because I know during our time, that would have been.

[Sammy]

Well, this was during our time. I was on the street.

[Interviewer Patrick]

You guys know both. Who he's talking. You know what he's talking about?

[Sammy]

Well, he was I don't remember his name, but he. And he was low cave and nobody bothered with him. But, you know, there's little. He was more or less like Shun.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Just recently story came out on Star was a observer from the Andre Guetta family from Sicily, which is apparently the wealthiest family there. December 2019, story saying the Italian mafia is now accepting gay mobsters. And they announced it. It's pretty interesting to see an article being written about it.

[Sammy]

You know, I just don't know why you would go looking for that. It could happen, but why you would. Roy Demeo had a guy with him, one of his top shooters, very dangerous guy, and he was gay. He got out of prison because he cooperated. Eventually went to Texas. I believe it was stuck up a gas station in Texas. They have guns. The guy pulled out a gun, there was a shootout and he killed this guy. But he was straight out gay and he was a Roy de Mayo. I had told Roy once, you know, the Brady's pin up, he's a three dollar bill. He said, I know. He says, sam, he does work. He's right there. All right? And that's what I knew of.

[Patrick]

I mean, he's relaying things that happened, but. And I'm sure they did, but from my experience back then, there would have been shunned or. I don't know if they would have got killed, but shunned.

[Sammy]

And they deserve to be shunned to say, because it's not our lifestyle. It's just not our lifestyle.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Okay, how about women? How come you didn't accept women? Why has it made men never hear.

[Sammy]

That expression, a woman scorned? Who the fuck wants to put guns in their head? We have enough problems with guns. We don't need women with guns today.

[Patrick]

This is going to be considered whatever the wrong thing to say, but that's no life for a woman, in my opinion.

[Sammy]

No, absolutely no life for a woman.

[Interviewer Patrick]

You got some people in politics that, you know, they, they could have potentially.

[Patrick]

Nancy Pelosi could have been.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Nancy Pelosi could have been because she's ruthless. Who else?

[Patrick]

Her, for sure. And it's another thing because she's Italian. It bothers me, but nobody sticks out in my mind other than in her.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Hillary Clinton.

[Patrick]

You know what?

[Sammy]

She.

[Patrick]

She is as unscrupulous as any mob guy I ever met or ever knew. But she wouldn't be a good mobster.

[Sammy]

No, really.

[Patrick]

No, no.

[Sammy]

They.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Who would have been. If you look at some of the names today, who.

[Patrick]

I'm only kidding about Nancy Claude, I Mean, she's as bad as any guy I knew on the street. But. But you would have made names of.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Women who could have been not a woman. I'm just asking, like, so, so, so it wasn't part of the lifestyle to have women.

[Sammy]

No.

[Interviewer Patrick]

To be. So if you look at some of the folks today, the way they run their businesses, politicians, presidents, you know, names that are public figures that we know about. Do you look at somebody and say, that guy would have made a good boss? Do you, do you measure leaders like that? Sometimes where you say, he would have been a good boss and if. Yeah, would you say that too? Maybe I give you a couple names and you tell me, Trump.

[Sammy]

No.

[Patrick]

No, I don't think so.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Because he's too public, too flamboyant, or.

[Sammy]

He would have got taken out as a narcissist and he would have rubbed people wrong just like he rubbed the country wrong. He would have got killed.

[Interviewer Patrick]

How about Obama?

[Patrick]

No.

[Sammy]

Absolutely not.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Cuomo?

[Sammy]

No.

[Patrick]

Andrew? Well, when you say, could they have been capable mob guys, in what sense do you mean?

[Interviewer Patrick]

I'm talking about somebody that could have ran a family for a few years and been not just a made man, but I'm talking about somebody that becomes a cap or underboss eventually, maybe a boss.

[Patrick]

I don't see that in Cuomo.

[Interviewer Patrick]

You don't see that in Cuomo?

[Sammy]

Not me either.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Biden?

[Sammy]

Oh, God, no.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Pat Riley, football.

[Sammy]

Pat Riley, basketball.

[Patrick]

Pat Riley, basketball.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Pat Riley.

[Patrick]

I like Pat Riley. I don't see him as a mob. It's hard to see these guys as mob guys.

[Interviewer Patrick]

How about Dana White?

[Patrick]

Well, he's got a pretty rough group.

[Interviewer Patrick]

That Dana White gets a little bit of a. Yeah. How about you? What's up? Do you say Dana could pull it off?

[Patrick]

You know, it's funny that I, as he mentioned his name, I can't see.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

Him in our life.

[Sammy]

I, I don't see him in our life either. He's got a rough background. He's a rough type of guy. He's pretty smart, too. I mean, business wise, I could see him being the main guy. It's possible going up the ladder. I don't know if he has the heritage in him, you know, of going back to our forefathers and everything. He don't have that same heritage. So he might be a made guy. I could see a lot of guys being a made guy. Even guys who got in who didn't even belong. I could say, okay, like Peter got in. He could have been a made guy. He was a garbage man. All his life. He was John's brother. He worked in the club. You could make him, but he shouldn't go any further.

[Interviewer Patrick]

LeBron James.

[Sammy]

No, no.

[Interviewer Patrick]

David Stern when he ran the NBA, I knew David.

[Patrick]

I met him a few times.

[Interviewer Patrick]

No, no, not David Stern. Okay. Jay Z.

[Patrick]

Now you're getting a more gangster type, you know? No, I mean, I see him as I see him. I could see Jay Z, obviously, as a street guy.

[Sammy]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

It'S different. Our type of guys are different, Patrick.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Well, you're different means what? Low key? Not needing the attention, kind of just to themselves, but powerful. Maybe like a Jared Kushner. More him than Trump, because Jared's a behind the scenes guy that knows how to get things done.

[Patrick]

You could see Jared Kushner as, you know, Robert Duvall and the Godfather, that type of guy.

[Interviewer Patrick]

So conciliari. More playing that role.

[Patrick]

More of an advisory type.

[Interviewer Patrick]

I'll leave it up to you. Who do you think? Do you see anybody that would. Do you see anybody today that you said, you know, he could have been, you know, like, that person has a tendency, Like. I'll give you an idea. I asked Jonah Mendez, who was a former chief disguise officer for the U.S. government, CIA agent, 28 years, and she would make a face that looks just like you. You'd go somewhere nobody knows. It's a mess. It's a semitable mask. That was her job. That's what she did for a living. I said, what makes a good CIA agent? And she said, somebody who's extremely charming, extremely charismatic, great with people, knows how to get people to like him, trust them. Very driven, very competitive. But when he takes down the biggest agent at KGB and comes out and prevents a war from happening, he doesn't brag about it to anybody. That's how she described the CIA agent. Right. What would you say is the quality of a boss that made it to the highest level? What were some of the.

[Sammy]

You want to hear something strange?

[Patrick]

I'm curious.

[Sammy]

I think you could have been a friend of ours, and I think you could have elevated to become a captain. You have enough brains, you have enough class. In a lot of different ways. I think you would be accepted just like me and him accepted you to be the guy to do this interview. And I'm not trying to blow smoke up your ass. I think that you had abilities I don't know about being the boss, because in the mob, I think guys would resent that. You aren't Italian. You're not in that loop or line. But we had people who were not Italians who were in the mob, in the Colombo family, macintosh and other people that we accepted and respected them. I think you could be on that level above those guys into a position of made guy and possibly a captain. Going a little further, I'm not sure time would tell. But somebody like you, what you're doing in business. I know Michael. Been friendly with you for a lot of years. I've been friendly with you for a while. I see a lot of qualities in you that would be accepted to me. And I was in a pretty powerful position. I don't know how you feel about it.

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[Patrick]

A tag on one hand and ordering.

[Interviewer Patrick]

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[Interviewer Patrick]

Max $100 cash back per month. See terms of Venmo Me, I agree.

[Sammy]

Oh, cuz if you didn't agree, you know he ain't going to give you two cents.

[Patrick]

That's why I agree. No, I agree.

[Sammy]

I mean, no, I, I agree. Somebody like you who has a background, you have family roots. I see strong family roots. You have a heritage thing with your heritage. It's very similar to us.

[Patrick]

But let me.

[Sammy]

There are a lot of Spanish people who.

[Patrick]

Heritage.

[Interviewer Patrick]

It's interesting you say heritage because let.

[Patrick]

Me ask a question. You described all the things that make him mob.

[Sammy]

Quality.

[Patrick]

If you had to kill some somebody, could you do it?

[Interviewer Patrick]

At what cost? The way he explained it to me with no, no. If you do something to my family, I'm a bad human being.

[Patrick]

All right?

[Interviewer Patrick]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

If you were ordered to kill somebody that you didn't know because he's out.

[Interviewer Patrick]

I wouldn't do it.

[Sammy]

Well, yeah, but I mean, he's got the qualities to go to a certain distance. That's what he's out his answer. You got to answer that question.

[Interviewer Patrick]

I'd go back to selling insurances, but I would.

[Sammy]

Yeah, well, you're a business guy and you don't want it to be there. But I mean, you have qualities enough.

[Patrick]

That's a good answer because you should be eliminated. But I mean, that's. That's the bottom line, Patrick. So all of those are there, all those good qualities that he just mentioned, that you could be a good mob guy, but couldn't do that. You're eliminated.

[Interviewer Patrick]

Why? Heritage? Well, because when I, When I said Dana White, you said he doesn't have the heritage. Like, why is heritage so critical? Is that values and principles?

[Sammy]

Yeah, it's family. It has to do with the Mafia. Again, like I said before, when it came out in the 12th century, this thing started when Italy, Sicily specifically, was invaded. And in Sicily, there were peasants and farmers and they. Every time they were invaded, they stuck together as families and they fought the enemy. There's a whole story about, I believe it was the French invasion where a woman, a young girl was raped. And they all went to this guy who they. He wasn't their boss, but he was a very powerful guy within the village. And they went to him and told him, and he asked who raped her? Joseph's daughter, who raped her and him. They let the woman go cook and get out of the room. And four or five of them got together and they were going to kill these soldiers. And they did. Brutally killed them.

[Patrick]

I was in the mob, but if you said to me, could I be a cripple blood? I would say, no, it's not my heritage. I don't understand it.

[Sammy]

It's not what I can do.

[Interviewer Patrick]

So are you going to heritage as in. So I'm more looking at it from quality. You're going back to. It must matter to me to be an Italian. I have to be a proud Italian and proud of my heritage and my roots. Is that kind of where you're going?

[Sammy]

No, you can be along the same lines. In other words, I said that you. I could see you're family oriented, you're fair, you're open, you're honest. So we could accept you not being an Italian. And they almost did it. The commission once sat and said, maybe we can make people who are not Italian. That's when they went to this thing. Well, we could accept a guy the mom is not. So they did make concession. But you can make it, you know, only so for. But that's a great example he just brought out. I have A lot of friends, Crip or something like that. But I don't fit in exactly. Their same mentality, their same thinking. If they talk about their heritage, they'll talk about maybe slavery. I didn't come against that. That's not in my heritage. So they might talk about different things that I'm not. It's not my style. So I don't think. It's not that I'm not going to accept them. I don't think they would accept me.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

Coming up on Mafia States of America.

[Patrick]

I didn't make my name off of John Gotti, nor do I have to.

[Sammy]

Fuck John Gotti. And your name. How about what he just said? You just said, yeah, that tape to Mike Tyson, that on John's. I'm explaining why I don't even know. There's gonna be an explanation today.

[Patrick]

Yes, I just explained it. You called me a liar and you said I'm a BS Christian.

[Sammy]

So let's just. No, no. We'll take one thing at a time. I have a Napoleon attitude now. I am sure. But I'm fucking ferocious.

[Patrick]

Sure, I know that.

[Sammy]

I hate fucking people. Your height. Oh beautiful for spacious skies forever Waves of gray for purple mountain majesties above the fruited pain. America. With everything from sea to. Oh beautiful. Mercy. Hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday.

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