PBD Podcast — Mafia States of America | Episode 9: "The Mob Today"
Date: November 15, 2025
Host: Patrick Bet-David
Guests: Sammy "The Bull" Gravano, Michael Franzese
Main Theme & Purpose
This episode of the PBD Podcast is a dynamic roundtable conversation focusing on the evolution of the American Mafia — how it has changed from its heyday to the present day. Hosts and former mobsters reminisce about old operations, analyze the current state of organized crime, and explore what the future could hold for criminal enterprises. Along the way, they reflect on mob traditions, changing values, and even hypothesize how mobsters might operate in modern industries like crypto, art, sports, and politics.
Key Discussion Points
The State of the Mob Today
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Major Decline in Power
- The Mafia no longer holds the same sway over industries, unions, or politicians as it did in the 80s and earlier.
- "It's a shell of its former self. It's made up of really fairly low level wannabes... they don't control major international businesses, they don't control local businesses." — Documentary Narrator [04:39]
- Sammy: “It’s not even close to what it was back then. Back then... it was like the Jesse James days. It was the cowboy days. People bodies, people shootings, robberies, you name it...” [03:58]
- Media coverage has dramatically decreased, a sign of the mob’s reduced visibility and, perhaps effectiveness.
- The Mafia no longer holds the same sway over industries, unions, or politicians as it did in the 80s and earlier.
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Loss of Traditional Rackets
- They’ve lost control over major unions and legitimate businesses.
- Core income today seems to be in smaller crimes: Wall Street manipulations, credit card fraud, diminished gambling and loan sharking.
Notable Quote
“The government became the bookmakers, the government became the drug dealers.”
— Patrick [04:34]
If They Were Mobsters Today: Modern Rackets Hypotheticals
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PPP Loan Fraud, The Gas Scheme, Art Market, Payday Loans
- Patrick would return to the gas tax scam: “If it were me, Patrick, I’d be investigating a gas business again.” [06:29]
- Sammy would seek legitimacy: “Let’s go to Hollywood. Let’s go make some money, bro... We're not going back to prison.” [06:39]
- Both joke about art scams and the manipulation in modern art markets.
- Sammy recounts a failed art theft: "It was so rare I couldn’t even sell the f**ing thing... then it broke. I didn’t get 3 cents for this thing.”* [09:04]
- Payday and car loans as a “legit” form of shylocking: "So if I was in the mafia, I’m not going to get hurt with that and I'm gonna get my money back real quick..." — Sammy [09:53]
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Involvement in Crypto and Recruiting Hackers
- Both express that a modern mob would investigate–if not weaponize–cryptocurrencies and hackers.
- Patrick: “Yes, the answer is Yes, I think we’d research it.” [12:46]
- Sammy: “Who are we gonna rob with this? No, no, this is legit? So if I buy it, it’s legit?” [12:50]
- Recruiting skilled outsiders (like hackers) is not new: criminals have always relied on “industry insiders” for ideas:
- “A guy in that industry would come to me...they come to you because they believe you’re going to protect them... They’re the ones with the ideas...” — Patrick [13:24]
- Both express that a modern mob would investigate–if not weaponize–cryptocurrencies and hackers.
Racial, Ethnic, and Gender Barriers in the Mob
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Italian-Only Rule:
- Historically, one had to be Italian on both sides; later changed to father’s side only. Guests reflect on how this hurt and helped the mob’s cohesion and identity.
- “It was a mistake…your mother…she has an influence on you just as much, if not more than the father.” — Sammy [16:14]
- “It’s not that it was a racist thing. It’s just… it’s heritage.” — Patrick [18:58]
- Other groups (Blacks, Jews, Irish, etc.) were respected as business partners but not admitted as “made men.”
- Historically, one had to be Italian on both sides; later changed to father’s side only. Guests reflect on how this hurt and helped the mob’s cohesion and identity.
-
Racism and Social Circles in Prison:
- Patrick shares: “That’s not being racist. You’re in prison, you hang out with who you’re comfortable with..." [19:15]
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Attitudes Toward LGBTQ Members:
- Rare but significant stories about gay mobsters, including the killing of an underboss for his sexuality. Sammy argues it should not have been a killing offense.
- “I believe that the two captains who heard this were more interested in his seat. Killing him and taking over that seat. And that did happen.” — Sammy [23:44]
- Rare but significant stories about gay mobsters, including the killing of an underboss for his sexuality. Sammy argues it should not have been a killing offense.
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Women in the Mafia:
- Firm rejection of women as “made” members — for both practical and traditional reasons.
- “That expression, a woman scorned? Who the f** wants to put guns in their head?”* — Sammy [27:03]
- “That’s no life for a woman, in my opinion.” — Patrick [27:13]
- Firm rejection of women as “made” members — for both practical and traditional reasons.
Mobster Leadership, Personality, and Modern Comparisons
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Who Today Would Make a Good Mob Boss?
- The group assesses contemporary public figures (Trump, Obama, Cuomo, Dana White, Jay-Z, Jared Kushner) on “mob qualities.”
- Trump: too public/flamboyant, would get “taken out” [28:41]
- Hillary Clinton: “as unscrupulous as any mob guy I ever met... but she wouldn’t be a good mobster.” — Patrick & Sammy [27:44]
- Dana White: has roughness, but lacks heritage.
- Jay-Z: “I see him as... obviously, as a street guy.” — Patrick [30:41]
- Kushner: behind-the-scenes operator, likened to Robert Duvall’s consigliere in The Godfather [31:16]
- “Our type of guys are different... low key. Not needing the attention, kind of just to themselves, but powerful.” — Patrick [30:52]
- The group assesses contemporary public figures (Trump, Obama, Cuomo, Dana White, Jay-Z, Jared Kushner) on “mob qualities.”
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Mob Boss Qualities
- The most effective mob leaders are low-key, charismatic, family-oriented, and able to demand respect without showing off.
- “Somebody who’s extremely charming, extremely charismatic, great with people... But when he takes down the biggest agent at KGB... he doesn’t brag about it to anybody.” — Interviewer, quoting former CIA disguise chief [31:25]
- The most effective mob leaders are low-key, charismatic, family-oriented, and able to demand respect without showing off.
Personal Reflections, Heritage, and Ethical Lines
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Heritage as Core Value
- Both guests emphasize heritage and family tradition as central to Mafia identity, comparing it to other groups’ cultural roots.
- “It’s family... when it came out in the 12th century, this thing started when Italy, Sicily specifically, was invaded... they stuck together as families and they fought the enemy.” — Sammy [35:56]
- Patrick notes the parallel: “If you said to me, could I be a Crip or Blood? ...It’s not my heritage. I don’t understand it.” [37:04]
- Both guests emphasize heritage and family tradition as central to Mafia identity, comparing it to other groups’ cultural roots.
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Limits and Morality
- The host is praised for qualities that would have made him a good mobster — except his unwillingness to kill simply on orders, which both guests say would “disqualify” him.
- “That’s the bottom line, Patrick. So all of those are there... but couldn’t do that, you’re eliminated.” — Patrick [35:29]
- The host is praised for qualities that would have made him a good mobster — except his unwillingness to kill simply on orders, which both guests say would “disqualify” him.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “The government became the bookmakers, the government became the drug dealers.” — Patrick [04:34]
- “It’s a shell of its former self… They’re basically drugs. Still, some gambling… loan sharking. But the revenues are much, much smaller.” — Documentary Narrator [04:39]
- “Let’s go to Hollywood. Let’s go make some money, bro. Legitimately. Because that’s where the money is. And we’re not going to go back.” — Sammy [06:39]
- “I put it away and then it broke. I didn’t get 3 cents for this thing.” — Sammy, on failed art theft [09:04]
- “It was a mistake ...your mother... she has an influence on you just as much, if not more than the father.” — Sammy, on the Italian-only rule [16:14]
- “That expression, a woman scorned? Who the f** wants to put guns in their head?”* — Sammy [27:03]
- “She is as unscrupulous as any mob guy I ever met... but she wouldn’t be a good mobster.” — Patrick, on Hillary Clinton [27:44]
- “Could you do it? ...If you had to kill somebody?” — Patrick [34:58]
- “You got to have the qualities, but if you couldn’t do that, you’re eliminated.” — Patrick [35:29]
Key Timestamps
- 03:06–04:39: Discussion on how the Mafia today is radically diminished from its heyday.
- 06:29–07:46: Hypotheticals about modern rackets, including PPP loans, gas tax scams.
- 09:04–10:53: Art scams and the unlikely profitability of stolen art.
- 12:46–13:24: Discussion of the Mafia’s potential involvement in crypto and hacking.
- 16:14–18:58: The Italian-only rule and the question of heritage vs. inclusion.
- 20:43–24:44: Treatment of gay members in the mob — real-life stories and moral debates.
- 27:03–28:04: Why women were barred from the Mafia.
- 28:38–31:22: Modern public figures and their (in)compatibility with mob life.
- 34:57–37:28: Heritage, ethics, and what it would take for someone today to truly “fit” in the Mafia.
Tone & Style
The episode blends tough-guy storytelling, humor, nostalgia, and candid self-reflection — never losing the gritty, unapologetic authenticity the hosts and guests are known for. Jokes cut through heavy themes, and the conversation is both deeply personal and openly analytical about American organized crime’s past and present.