Michael Wolff OPENS UP About Epstein, Trump Intel & Clintons | PBD Podcast | Ep. 632

Summary

PBD Podcast Ep. 632 | Michael Wolff Opens Up About Epstein, Trump, Intel & Clintons

Release Date: August 19, 2025
Host: Patrick Bet-David
Guest: Michael Wolff (NYT bestselling author, "Fire and Fury")

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Episode Overview

In this compelling episode, Patrick Bet-David sits down with journalist and author Michael Wolff for an in-depth discussion centered on Wolff’s extensive interactions with Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump. Wolff reveals details from his “hundreds of hours” of conversations with Epstein, sharing insights on Epstein’s relationships, business dealings, alleged blackmail operations, the circumstances surrounding Epstein’s death, and speculated intelligence ties. The conversation also explores Epstein’s social circle—including high-profile names like Bill Clinton, Bill Gates, Ghislaine Maxwell, and Ehud Barak—and offers an unvarnished behind-the-scenes view of one of the most infamous figures of recent decades. Wolff draws distinct parallels between Epstein and Trump, both personally and socially, and discusses the pervasive rumors surrounding their circle.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Context: Wolff's Relationship with Epstein and Trump

• Wolff’s Interaction with Epstein

  • Met through New York Magazine (2004–05) but no real interaction until after Epstein’s first jail sentence ([03:59]).
  • In 2014, Epstein approached Wolff to write about him for a potential PR rehabilitation ([03:59]).
  • Over the next five years, Wolff spent “hundreds of hours,” recording conversations—amounting to what he calls Epstein’s “autobiography” ([09:31], [13:53]).
  • Epstein wanted to facilitate interactions with influential guests at his home.

• Relationship with Trump

  • Wolff covered Trump's 2015 presidential campaign and presidency.
  • Epstein became a “window” into Trump as they had been extraordinarily close—“the most important non-family relationship in each other's lives” ([04:34]).

2. Epstein, Trump, and the Real Estate Fallout

• Fallout Over Real Estate Deal
  • Former close friends, their relationship dissolved over a 2004 real estate bidding war in Palm Beach ([09:31], [12:26]).
  • Epstein believed Trump betrayed him by winning the property, suspecting money laundering due to his knowledge of Trump’s finances ([10:55]).
  • After this, Epstein suspected Trump tipped off police about Epstein’s illegal activities ([12:50]).

Quote:
“Epstein believed that it was Trump who first informed the police about what was going on at Epstein’s house.”
— Michael Wolff ([12:50])

3. Insights into Influential Connections

• Bill Clinton

  • Clinton “turned his back on Epstein” post-scandal; Epstein saw Clinton as a “fair-weather friend” ([14:15]).
  • Their relationship ended abruptly when legal issues surfaced.

• Ghislaine Maxwell

  • By 2004–05, Maxwell “very much distanced herself” from Epstein ([15:42]), acting primarily as a paid functionary, not a partner ([17:06]).
  • Her later conviction tied to acts from their earlier relationship ([18:28]).

• Bill Gates

  • Epstein and Gates had a relationship; Gates complained to Epstein about his marriage ([50:26]).
  • Wolff affirms he saw Gates at Epstein’s residence ([50:06]).

• Ehud Barak (Israel, Mossad Rumors)

  • Barak and Epstein were very close; Barak visited frequently ([41:53]).
  • Speculation of Mossad ties is dismissed: Epstein was a “gossip,” not an intelligence asset ([43:47]).
  • “Ehud is an incredible gas bag. [... ] Ehud knew Jeffrey. [...] They were close, close, close friends.” ([46:27], [45:41])

Quote:
“My view of Epstein, however, is that he possessed ... gossip rather than intelligence.”
— Michael Wolff ([43:47])

4. The Social Scene at Epstein’s Mansion

• Mansion Details

  • Not a penthouse—a “mansion” that dwarfed neighboring homes ([18:50]).
  • Epstein claimed to have purchased the property from Lex Wexner as a financial transaction, not a gift ([20:16]).

• Odd Art and Social Dynamics

  • Clinton painting: a joke, potentially a symbol of bitterness after Clinton distanced himself ([22:22], [24:23]).
  • Art and decor were used to amuse or signal, not always seriously ([22:22]).

5. Epstein’s Business Model & Wealth

• Epstein kept the origins of his wealth mysterious and compartmentalized ([51:51]).
• Once described his strategy as a “reverse Ponzi scheme”—making real money “disappear” for wealthy divorcees ([53:25]).
• Connections to Steven Hoffenberg, accused Ponzi schemer and early mentor ([53:45]).

Quote:
“[Epstein said:] In a real Ponzi scheme, you make money that does not exist appear to exist. In my Ponzi scheme, I make money that exists, appear not to exist.”
— Michael Wolff ([52:12])

6. Recordings, Legality, & Possibility of Disclosure

• Wolff owns recordings from his interviews. Steve Bannon’s Epstein tapes legally belong to Epstein’s estate, not Bannon ([31:52]).
• No “bombshell,” single-event revelations—more a deep, complex portrait suitable for a biography ([34:03]).
• FBI/DOJ have not approached Wolff about the recordings ([39:23]).
• Wolff says he will not sell the tapes; he sees them as journalistic property ([39:29]).

7. Epstein’s Final Days and Death

• Via lawyer, Epstein’s last message to Wolff: “still hanging around” ([56:08])—interpreted as a dark joke after an alleged suicide attempt.
• No direct mention of cellmate Nicholas Tortagliano in their exchanges ([58:25]).

8. Wolff’s Perspective on Trump and Epstein

• Wolff is clear: he considers both Trump and Epstein “bad guys” with similar impulses ([29:32], [29:56]).
• Trump and Epstein shared obsessions with “women, girls, and money,” especially models, who were often very young ([60:33]).
• Wolff states, “they were friends for, well, more than a decade...” ([60:29]).

Quote:
“Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein are very much similar people. That’s why Epstein ... supplies a window into who Donald Trump is, because they were ... so close, but also so close in their interests.”
— Michael Wolff ([29:56])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the social climb:
  “They were interested, both of them were interested primarily in the two things they were interested in were women, girls and money ... the girls ... models ... anywhere from, you know, ... 14 to 20, basically.” ([60:33])

• Regarding 'intel':
  “My view of Epstein, however, is that he was ... a great gossip, a great purveyor of information ... He certainly had no one client he was passing information to.” ([43:47])

• Epstein’s last message:
  “His response ... was, quote, still hanging around. How are you?” ([56:08])

• License to gossip, not spy:
  “I'm not sure that ... you would necessarily want your intelligence agent to be one of the world's biggest gossips because he couldn't contain himself.” ([44:45])

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Section Timestamps for Important Segments

• Epstein & Trump Relationship: [04:34] – [13:30]
• Clinton & Maxwell Discussion: [13:53] – [18:28]
• Wexner Mansion & Art: [18:50] – [23:47]
• Business Model & Hoffenberg: [51:41] – [53:45]
• Ehud Barak & Mossad Rumors: [41:23] – [46:27]
• Social Atmosphere at Epstein’s House: [47:22] – [49:53]
• Final Communications Before Death: [55:22] – [57:39]
• Trump: Parallels and Relationship: [59:00] – [61:00]
• Royal Family & Social Aspiration: [63:18] – [64:50]

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Tone and Closing

Throughout the discussion, Wolff approaches even salacious claims with a journalist’s skepticism and a preference for nuance over sensationalism, pushing back against simple conspiracy narratives. While unsparing in his critique of characters like Trump and Epstein, he makes clear that the tapes he holds illuminate a complex, often contradictory, and profoundly secretive world—one he will only reveal in his own way and on his own terms.

“I’m a writer. ... This is my story. Not anyone else's story.”
— Michael Wolff ([40:10])

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

[Michael Wolff]

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[Michael Wolff]

They were the most important relationship, non family relationship in each other's lives.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That's a new fact. What was he like when he was speaking to you during those hundreds of hundreds of hours specifically?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, as I say, he was enormously detailed about his relationship. Epstein believed that it was Trump who first informed the police about what was going on at Epstein's house.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So so far we have Clinton, we have Trump. Any other big names that he would speak to you?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, yes. Yeah. Bill Gates, Yes. Epstein related conversations to me about Gaetz complaining to Epstein about his marriage and his wife. I did not like that he'd have meetings with Jeffrey Epstein.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Why would Ehud Barack Visit his place 36 times?

[Michael Wolff]

Ehud is an incredible gas bag. I you know, I think that he will go, oh my God.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What were the last text exchanges with him and exactly how much longer after his last text to you did he die?

[Michael Wolff]

It came through his lawyers.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So the lawyer told you that could be a cryptic message.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean it is a cryptic mess. Did you ever think you were made.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Adam?

[Michael Wolff]

What's your point?

[Patrick Bet-David]

The future looks bright. My handshake is better than anything I ever saw. It's right here. You are a one of one.

[Michael Wolff]

I think I said this.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Today we have a special guest with us, Michael Wolf, New York Time best selling author Fire and Fury. It was one of the most talked about books in the last election that we had sold millions on top of millions of copies of books, journalist magazines, paper List is long. Michael, it's great to have you on a podcast.

[Michael Wolff]

Thanks for having me.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yes. So, Michael, this is. This is what I'd like to focus on, today's conversation to be. It's one, obviously, Epstein driven, because you have the hundred hours with Epstein that we've all read about and heard about. Two, his business model, how he made his money. Epstein, we keep hearing about different types of ways he made money. Is there a blackmail list? And then aside from that, the way he passed away, I think he called his German girlfriend before he died. But he also, you're the last person he texted before he died. So you've had a lot of time with him. You've spent three hours with Trump, so you've had one on one with both of them. And there's a lot of conversations about a possible Mossad link. Is there anything there? Is there not anything there? So those are some of the items I'd want to talk about here today.

[Michael Wolff]

Great. Let's. Let's do it.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So let's get right into it. So if you don't mind, just start off maybe sharing with the audience your relationship over the years and how many hours you've spent with Epstein as well as your relationship with President Trump.

[Michael Wolff]

Sure. So in 2014, I had. I had known Epstein somewhat before this. He had tried. He was a. A member of a group of wealthy men who in 2004, 2005, tried to buy New York Magazine where I worked and was the lead writer. So I got to know him, you know, fairly well. During, during this period, he did not. His group did not end up buying New York Magazine. Not long after that, his legal problems began, and then he went to jail. So I didn't really have any. Much. I didn't have any involvement with him until he got out of jail, called me, we got together, and then in 2014, he asked me to write about him a book magazine article. You know, clearly he was interested in being rehabilitated. He had gone to jail. You know, he's. For two counts of prostitution. One, one of those. Those counts being under an underage girl and had. Was a registered sex offender. So he wanted. He wanted to return to his life. And in large measure, he had, you know, still lived in his enormous house in Manhattan. Many people of influence and note were showing up, but he wanted to continue this rehabilitation, and he figured if someone wrote about him, that would help. And I said, well, actually, I'm. I'm probably not the person, and I'm probably not interested in that. And he said, that's fine. You know, I did, he, I certainly didn't have to make a decision. And he said, well, why don't, if you're interested, why don't you just come whenever you'd like, talk to me, see if my story is interesting to you, see if you feel that I'm straightforward. And also there's many interesting people who come to my house and if you're interested, I will invite you on occasion. Anyway, nothing, nothing. Not to be, not to be, not interested in here. And I said, you know, yeah, sure, no commitments necessary. And we did begin to talk and he did begin to invite me to some interesting gatherings at his house. And I was, I, you know, I was, I was, you know, his story was certainly you could not help but be somewhat interested by this, this story. But then, and this rolls into your next question in, in 2015, Donald Trump started to run for president. I started to cover his campaign and that would ultimately be, he would obviously win. And I started to cover his years in the White House. And Epstein at that point, and our relationship had been relatively infrequent, but at that point he became a very interesting window for me into who Donald Trump really was because Epstein and Trump had been the best of friends. I mean, I don't mean just casual friends, acquaintances, someone he knew. I mean the best of friends, possibly. I think they were the most important relationship, non family relationship in each other's lives. And, and his insights about Donald Trump, his knowledge about Donald Trump, his appreciation of, of all, you know, both, both, both gifts and, and otherwise about Donald Trump was immense. So he became very, very helpful to me. And, and we continued our relationship right up until, until he was arrested. And then a month later, after his arrest, he died. And during this long period of time from 2014 to 2019, many of our conversations and obviously with his knowledge were, were recorded and those are recordings that I now have.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Michael, I appreciate that. Very helpful for to know the backstory of it so roughly. Let's just say 100 hours of the hundred hours that you have, what were some things that he said that he, did he sound like he was upset at the president? Did he sound like he was, he missed a relationship? Did he sound like he was over exaggerating, under exaggerating, did you feel hate? Did you feel animosity? Did you feel betrayal? What was he like when he was speaking to you during those hundreds of hundreds of hours? Specifically?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, as I say, he was enormously detailed about his relationship. He was, I mean, obviously Donald Trump had, had, was about to become or was in the process of becoming the president and then became the president. So this, this became, became obviously a substantial fact in, in, in Jeffrey Epstein's life. His best friend had become the president. Now, this was a friendship that stopped over a dispute, a real estate dispute in 2004. And they became bitter enemies. And briefly, and I recount this in one of my books, Jeffrey Epstein believed himself to be the top bidder for a piece of real estate in Palm Beach. In 2004, he had bidding, bid $36 million for this palm beach house. He took his friend Donald Trump over to advise him on the logistics of moving the swimming pool. His friend Trump then immediately went around his back and bid $40 million for the House and got the house. Epstein on his part believed and had. Epstein had pretty intimate knowledge of Trump's financial basis. I mean, they were involved with deals together. Epstein was among Trump's business advisors, in essence. And Epstein believed that Trump did not have $40 million. Therefore, he concluded that Trump was fronting for someone and that this was essentially a money laundering, part of a money laundering scheme. And in fact, the house was sold. Trump sold the house within two years for $95 million, which would be a kind of a red flag that, that something was going on here. Trump began to. Trump was. Epstein was furious with, with Trump over this real estate betrayal. And I often think that men of a certain level of wealth, the thing that angers them most is a real estate betrayal. But he started to threaten Trump with lawsuits and with going to the press with this allegation that this is.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Epstein threatened to sue Trump.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, yes.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And I've been to this house. It looks nothing like it does in this picture. They tore it down, they rebuild it back up. I looked at this house four years ago with a realtor in Palm beach who was showing me a bunch of homes. It's an immaculate house. I mean, the house looks it. It doesn't look like a house. It looks like a museum. It's a beautiful property. So he's threatened to sue him. Even though they're friends, he's threatened to sue him over this deal?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. Okay. Yes. As I say, rich men break down over real estate disputes. At any rate, at that point, Epstein's legal problems began. The police began to investigate him over allegations that he was. That there were underage women coming to his house. Epstein believed that it was Trump who first informed the police about what was going on at Epstein's house. And from that point on, they were nothing but bitter enemies.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And this is what he's telling you. This is one of the instances of what he's telling you.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, that the following had happened. That is the version of this related by Epstein.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay, if it's a hundred hours, you know, Michael, what else did he say? Did he say anything about Clinton's. Did he say anything about other politicians or businessmen?

[Michael Wolff]

You know, he said a lot. I mean, the hundreds hours is, is, is, is, is pretty much a, in, in some sense his autobiography. He's talking through the details of his life. Trump does not occupy most of these hours. Trump, I would say, is, you know, 15%. Maybe, maybe, maybe still a lot more.

[Patrick Bet-David]

15% is a lot more.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, he keeps coming back to Trump and obviously that's one of my. So I'm pressing him on the Trump relationship. But he's also speaking about broadly other things. Yes, he speaks about Clinton somewhat. Clinton turned his back on Epstein after Epstein's legal problems began. So he was, you know, I think he felt that at best Clinton was a fair weather friend and that was largely the regard he had for Clinton at this point. And there was a set of other people like that. Many people turned on.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Steve, what other names would you say? So far? We have Clinton, we have Trump. Any other big names that he would speak to you about?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, yes, Ghislaine Maxwell. So Ghislaine Maxwell, who had been, who had been very close to him, obviously after 2004, after the police stepped into this. 2004, 2005, she very much distanced herself from, from Epstein and Epstein was, was hurt by this.

[Patrick Bet-David]

She distanced herself from Epstein.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. Yeah, they had no, I mean, this is a, in the, in this story. And, and obviously Ghislaine is so, so closely linked to Epstein at this point and the, and the one person in this whole scandal to go to jail. But the truth is that by 2004, 2005, she was pretty much out of his life. Wow. And yeah, I mean, a little, you know, again, it's very hard to separate. I mean, the whole facts of this, of this Epstein story are clouded not least of all by the fact that, that most of the information that we get about this story is from people who don't know anything, who are speculating or who are adopting the information they have heard from somebody else who doesn't know anything. And the people who do know things are, have been so paranoid about being connected to Jeffrey Epstein that they haven't spoken. So therefore, therefore everything or many of the things that we know about this, this story are.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Soft did he say anything about Ghislaine that maybe the public doesn't know about, that it stuck out? Any story that he said where you're like, wow, I never knew that. I think the public needs to know this story about the two of them.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I don't. I mean, I think what, what, what's not recognized is that a, that Ghislaine was out of his life at a relatively long ago moment. That while they had had a close relationship, a boyfriend, girlfriend, relationship, for a short period after that, she increasingly became not his partner in crime, but his, you know, his functionary, his employee. She was, you know, she was getting paid and she was carrying out whatever, whatever duties he told her to carry out or whatever duties she, she inferred that she had to carry out. So, so I think again, that's another misperception of this.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That's interesting. If you're saying they didn't. No longer did things together. I think she got Chart found guilty in 2020, 2021, which is less than four years ago. I think she's facing 20 years right now. And it was sex trafficking of a minor, conspiracy to incite entice minors to travel, to engage in illegal sex acts, conspiracy to transport minors would intend to engage in illegal sexual activity.

[Michael Wolff]

All of this, all of this, Every specific here is, relates to what happened prior to 2004 or 5.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Got it. So this goes back to then, Michael, when you were interviewing and, and recording Epstein. Was it mostly in his apartment? Is that where it was at his, his penthouse in Manhattan when you.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, it's not a pen, it's not a penthouse. It's a, it's a, It's a mansion.

[Patrick Bet-David]

21,000 square feet. I think that's the one that Lex Wexner gave him. It's a beautiful property. From what?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. And, and it is. That's even another soft, soft thing that is said, you know, you hear, it's 21,000 square feet. Epstein described as 55,000 square feet. And, and it clearly is. I mean, I've, I'm, you know, a good sized townhouse in New York is about, you know, 15,000 to 20,000 square feet. This is triple the size of a good sized townhouse. So, I mean, it is, it's on a block in Manhattan on 71st street between 5th Avenue and Madison Avenue, which is, it's a block of these significant mansions, but his dwarfs them all. So you see, I mean, there are these big mansions which you would say, oh my God, you know, that must be a, you know, who could possibly live in that? Those are amazing. And then next to his, you say, this is truly mind blowing. Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I mean, it's documented as the largest private residence in Manhattan, whether you call it a penthouse or whatever.

[Michael Wolff]

So.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Did you ever ask him why Lex Wexner gave that to him as a gift?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, and he would deny that.

[Patrick Bet-David]

He would.

[Michael Wolff]

In other words, he said, yes, this was part of a financial transaction he had with. With Wexner, the details of which I don't. I don't exactly know, but certainly he billed this as a. That. That he had bought the house from Wexner.

[Patrick Bet-David]

They did not make you kind of sit there and say, I mean, I'm sure you've got nice gifts in your life. I've had a couple nice gifts, you know, in my life. Couple of them for my friends and my wife. No one's been nice enough to give me a, you know, the largest private residence.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, you know, I once. I once had a conversation with Wexner about.

[Patrick Bet-David]

About.

[Michael Wolff]

This is the only time I met Wexner. And he had said. And I said, you know, I mean, how. How did you meet, you know, Epstein. Epstein or something? But it. I. And I don't remember my question, but I remember his answer. He looked surprised and said. And said, jeffrey made me half a billion dollars.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Jeff made me half a billion dollars. Did he tell you how?

[Michael Wolff]

I don't. Well, I assume from, you know, giving him financial advice, but I don't know. And possibly investment advice.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I mean, a lot of people make a lot of people half a billion dollars, but they don't give the biggest private residence in New York.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, as I say. As I say, from Epstein's point of view, this was not a gift. It was a transaction. The nature of that transaction, I don't know.

[Patrick Bet-David]

It's a little bit, you know, suspicious on what happened here when you walked into this private res. You know how they say that painting of President Bush and Clinton. Did you ever see those two paintings in the property?

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. The President Bush. I saw that one. It was in a little. It was basically in a closet off the main entrance.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Did you ever ask him why? He has. That's a very weird painting for you to have of a president in a dress and a painting in a. In a painting. That's kind of weird.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I think it was a joke painting. You know, at one point, I. I never saw that painting. So I. I don't. I don't know where. Where the Bush painting is from. I have seen the Clinton painting. And, you know, it was a. A joke. The nature of the joke, I'm not exactly sure, but it's a rough joke. It's a point about Epstein that he treated almost everything like a joke. In fact, art itself was treated like a joke. The piece of art above his mantle, above the fireplace on the ground floor, was something he had bought on the street, just a street painting for $100 or something. And then he had spent thousands and thousands of dollars on framing it. So it looked like a. Partly because of this frame, it looked like a significant piece of art, which it was not. And it amused him that many of the wealthy men he knew spent enormous amounts of money on art, which he considered a kind of vanity or even pretension on possibly a fraud.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah, so very, very interesting when you think about. So you saw the painting. Bill Clinton's. President Bill Clinton's. If you're gonna play a joke and you're gonna have all these guests that come in. I don't know if the former. You know, Barack, that these guys are coming over 36 times. If I'm living in America, I don't know if I'm gonna have a painting of the president like that in my house to make fun of the president. It undermines the leader of my country. Or there's some people that speculate that this was one way of him saying, hey, I have you, Bill. You better. And there's a lot of different speculations.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I don't know. I mean, he certainly didn't have him. And, you know, the Clintons, Bill, particularly walked out of his life after the. The investigation started. So the. The painting may have been a kind of. There may have been some bitterness in this painting. And he kept this. This. This painting. And I don't really know where the painting came from, but he was certainly not. You know, again, I. You know, I think it hurt him that. That. That Clinton turned on him like that.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That would be a validation of. To say now that you turned on me and. Distant distance yourself from me after all the fun you had with me, traveling without Secret Service. Just so you know, you better not screw me, because I know, you know, what I know about you in a very dark way that would make sense to say, everyone that comes here better not come after me, because I know what. You know, what I know about you.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, yeah, I mean, it's possible, except that obviously people did come after him. And, you know, there was no, you know, I think at various points, and there were people who wanted him to spill or share information about Clinton. And I don't think that, I mean, to my knowledge that never happened. And you know, I mean, I think that was always a possibility in a sense that Epstein believed in the, in the investigation, the initial investigation of him in Florida. So the investigation of him in Florida, as I understand, began as a, as a state investigation, actually a local investigation by the police in Palm beach, and then it was taken over by the feds, which would have been unusual. And Epstein believed that that was an effort by people in the Bush administration then to get information about Bill Clinton.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Is this the Palm beach story with the parents of the 14 year old girl that said that, you know, she was molested by him? This is the 2006, this is the.

[Michael Wolff]

First investigation investigation which began in 2004 and then sent him to jail. And I don't know, in your, in.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Your eyes, Michael, having spent as much time as you did with them, do you think Epstein is a bad guy?

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[Michael Wolff]

Well, he's clearly a bad guy. I mean he clearly did things that I would not do and you would not do. And we would hope that the people we know would not. Would not do. And so, yeah, I mean, he's a sex offender. He went to jail. But is he, is he, in addition to that, an intelligent guy, a knowledgeable guy, a guy who had, who had insights to offer? I would say, in my experience, yes. Does one cancel out the other? No, but they exist together.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Totally makes sense. I've met a lot of guys that are extremely knowledgeable and, and fun, even fun to talk to, but, you know, they've done something. I interviewed Samuel Bo Gravano. He's got to be one of the best storytellers I've met in my life. Well, yes, but he.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, I've, I've. I have a kind of specialty in bad guys.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I know you do. That's why. Yeah.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, and, you know, I know a lot of bad guys.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Well, it's your world.

[Michael Wolff]

For me, they're not, they're not gangsters. They're guys who are. I would consider, as you probably know, Donald Trump to be a bad guy.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay, so you. So, so you think Donald Trump is a bad guy. And, and you think Epstein is also a bad guy. So.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, and I think. And it's always, I think Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein are very much similar people. That's why Epstein, knowing Epstein. Epstein supplies a window into who Donald Trump is, because they were a so close, but also so close in their, in their interests.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Nowadays, more than ever, the brand you wear reflects and represent who you are. So for us, if you wear a Future Looks Bright hat or a valuetainment gear, you're telling the world. I'm optimistic. I'm excited about what's going to be happening. But you're a free thinker. You question things, you like, debate. And by the way, last year, 120,000 people got a piece of Future Looks Bright geared with valuetainment. We have so many new things. The cufflinks are here. New Future Looks Bright. This is my favorite, the green one. Just yesterday, somebody placed an order for a hundred of these. If you watch the PBD podcast, you got a bunch to choose from. White ones, black ones. If you smoke cigars and you come to our cigar lounge, we have this high quality lighter cutter and a holder for the cigars. We got sweaters with the valuetainment logo on it. We got mugs. We got a bunch of different things. But if you believe the future looks bright, if you follow our content and what we represent with valuetainment with PVD podcast, go to vtmerch.com. and by the way, if you order right now, there's going to be a special VT gift insight just for you. So again, go to vtmerch.com, place your order, tell the world that you believe the future looks bright. So, okay, so let's, let's, let's go there with the 100 hours that you have. Are there, is there anything in there? Like. Let's just say I'm an interested buyer. I would be interested in buying the hundred hours that you have. I would be interested in buying Bannon's 15, 16 hours that he has. Right. I would be interested in both of them. How.

[Michael Wolff]

Let me just add about Bannon's. What the hours that Bannon has is that Ban. I wouldn't buy them from Bannon if I were you, because Bannon does not owe. Own them.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Oh, who owns them?

[Michael Wolff]

I didn't know that the, yeah, Jeffrey Epstein paid for those, those, those tapes that. Wow.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So the, so the trust owns it?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. Oh, yes, the estate owns.

[Patrick Bet-David]

The estate owns it. So. Wow. Okay, so that's, that's a new fact. I didn't know the fact that the, you know, that recording is not. So Bannon couldn't sell it if he tried. So if he wanted to do a documentary, he would never be able to use those hours in a documentary.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. And again and again, let me, let me stress that, that although Steve, who I am personally fond of, but, but Steve's cover here, that he was making a documentary about Epstein is 100% not true. I know this because I was there and I'm fully aware and actually have it on tape of what, of what transpired here. And that was Bannon's effort to help Epstein with his legal problems. And this would be in 2019, when the law was closing in on Epstein. And Bannon's suggestion was that Epstein go on national TV to try to perform a mea culpa or explain or humanize himself in some way. And then Bannon offered to help prepare him. So essentially what, what Bannon was doing was media training. He was tutoring Epstein in how to face a hostile interview on a, you know, hypothetical 60 minutes.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Got it. So more of a training a PR than anything else. So let's, let's talk about your 100 hours that you have with them. How many, how much information is in there that it's bombshell, earth shattering type of information where the public should know about out of the hundred hours you have with them?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, it's a funny aspect of this and people call me up now People of significant standing and say, is there on the tapes, does Epstein promise Trump young girls or does. Does Epstein promise Bannon younger? It's that kind of thing. And I'm, and I'm. And I kind of say, you know, I don't know. You know, you've obviously never done interviews with, with, with. With people. I mean, when they ask that kind of thing, you know, these, these conversations unfold over a long period of. Over a long period. And these are conversations like life itself. Epstein is talking about his life. There's lots and lots of details. There's lots of information that would be surprising. I suppose there are. You know, the Daily Mail could go through this and pull out a thousand headlines that, that, that would seem headline worthy. When you listen to these tapes or when you were present, as I was during, during these things, you don't have that feeling. You have the feeling that this is incredibly interesting, fascinating, and it exposes a life. So what you get is a life rather than, Than headlines. Although, as I say, I'm sure you could go through this and pull out the sound bites which would then add up to two headlines.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Would the FBI or the DOJ benefit from having access to these hundred hours?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, benefit for what purpose? Since Jeffrey Epstein is already dead?

[Patrick Bet-David]

No, not. Not necessarily. We know he's already dead. Just to gather more intel with the FBI or the doj. If they're trying to get to the bottom of this, would they. Would they?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I think it's a question of what they're. Of what they're trying to get to the bottom of. If they are trying to get to the bottom of who Jeffrey Epstein was about, the real nature of Jeffrey Epstein's personality, about Jeffrey Epstein's, not only his weaknesses, but his strengths. If they, if the Epps. If the, if the FBI and the DOJ were biographers, as I am, they would find it interesting. Since they are not biographers, I think that they would probably be. They would probably be less. Less interested. Certainly I am.

[Patrick Bet-David]

The FBI's job, you know, different than CIA. CIA is international, foreign. FBI is domestic. Their job is to make sure, you know, families in America are gonna be safe. Americans are gonna be safe. So anybody that's tied to this or to even eliminate or address a future next Epstein, they would probably benefit from studying the patterns of how this guy communicates. And if that's the case, has the FBI, has the Department of Justice, have they at all reached out to you since you've had these for six years, whether it's under Biden or Obama, Biden, or Trump to say, hey, Michael, we think we need access to this recording that you have.

[Michael Wolff]

No, they haven't. And they probably haven't for a lot of reasons. First, I'm a journalist and a writer, therefore, that becomes a complicated thing. I mean, Epstein was a source for what I was doing, so I think that they understand the difficulties there. And then I also think they're probably unclear on what. They probably have no goals. There is probably no open investigation of Jeffrey Epstein, and of course, to what point he is dead, and there's no, to my knowledge, open investigation of anyone else involved with Jeffrey Epstein. Ghislaine is obviously. Has obviously been. That's been convicted. I mean, she's been convicted, she's in jail, and it's now headed toward a part. And so I don't think that there is. That there is any issue there. So, again, crossing these disciplines of someone who has been interested in someone, has material that. That reflects the full life of this. Of this man, and then the FBI and the doj, who are not interested in the full life of this man, they're interested in only their highly segmented view of any given person.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah, but not even a door knock, right? You've not even gotten a door knock on them. Hey, Michael, can we see this? You've had nothing? No email, no door knock, no text, no phone call?

[Michael Wolff]

Nope. Okay.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And if you were to sell it to an interested party, what would be the range of your asking price?

[Michael Wolff]

I wouldn't sell it. It's not. It's not for sale.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay, so you're not selling it. I got it.

[Michael Wolff]

No, I. I'm not a. I'm, you know, I'm not a. No, I'm a writer. Okay. So this is a story that. That I think is worth telling as a writer. It's a story that, you know, I mean, it's a. It's a pretty interesting story for me. So. So how I tell it and when I tell it, you know, is a kind of an organic and natural process. But I don't know why I got.

[Patrick Bet-David]

The impression that you were open to selling it. And you. You said some people reached out or they didn't, or you were.

[Michael Wolff]

No, no, no, no, no. I mean, I have spoken to many, many outlets and. And, you know, but it is about telling this story. It is not about. I would never sell this. I would never. You know, this is. And this is an important aspect of being a writer and a journalist. This is my story.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Makes sense.

[Michael Wolff]

Not anyone else's story.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I respect It. I respect it. Michael, on the topic of, you know, with his meeting, did you ever ask him about. Because, you know, a lot of. I've sat down with his brother on the topic of. I've interviewed his brother, Mark Epstein. He came to my cigar lounge about, I don't know, a year and a half, two years. I don't know the exact date, but he was with us for a couple hours, and we sat down, we had a lot of conversations. Well, that's an interesting conversation. I enjoy talking to the guy on what he had to say. You'll hear the name being dropped of Mossad regularly, that he had ties back to Mossad. I mean, why would Ehud Barack visit his place 36 times? Why would he, you know, regularly have access to the White House when he would go see Clinton? Did you get a feeling from the hundred hours you guys spoke together that there was any ties to the Mossad?

[Michael Wolff]

Sure, sure. Let. Let me. Let me. Let me give you precisely my feeling, because I don't know. And, you know, Epstein, I think it's very possible to say, left Epstein lived a very compartmentalized life. Life. You saw what he wanted, wanted you to see. But I had been at Epstein's house many, many, many times when Ehud Barak was there, certainly a dozen times, maybe. Maybe more.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Wow.

[Michael Wolff]

And Ehud Barak and Jeffrey Epstein were very close. I mean, I think among, you know, they were. They were certainly among each other's closer friends. And I think it's been documented that Ehud Barak got money from Epstein and they had various business dealings together, but also they clearly enjoyed each other. I mean, I saw this again and again and again. And. And obviously, Ehud Barak has a. Had a. Had a very clear connection to Mossad. Although Ehud Barak, the former. A former prime minister, was out of. Out of power, but very much knowledgeable about and engaged in the Israeli politics and the Israeli power structure. Having said that, and therefore, Epstein himself was very knowledgeable about Israel, about its interests, about its politics, and to a degree, about its intelligence. My view of Epstein, however, is that he was. He possessed. The information he possessed would be better characterized as gossip rather than intelligence. And. And Epstein was a great gossip, a great purveyor of information and information in whatever form. And he was. And he was a purveyor of that information to a wide variety of people. I mean, he certainly was not. Was not. He certainly had no one client he was passing information to. Information was part of Epstein's currency, and it was a currency that he used for. I Think financial gain, but also for social climbing. So one of the reasons people would come to Epstein's house and sit around his table is that you would hear things that, that the New York Times didn't know. And, but, but this was not, this was not carefully shared. This was as, as I say, a gossips currency.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I mean, some would say gossip and intel are cousins. You know, they're somewhat related. I can still go, I know.

[Michael Wolff]

I'm not sure that they are, that they are, are related. They the same thing. And I'm not sure that if you would, that you would necessarily want your intelligence agent to be one of the world's biggest gossips because he couldn't contain himself. He would tell anyone anything.

[Patrick Bet-David]

He couldn't contain himself. Epstein couldn't contain himself. So he was always talking, always. So then that's, that's actually that. That makes for a terrible massage. Terrible because in a part of it, which is kind of weird when, when he said they had a, at Ehud Barak, they had a scheduled monthly meeting, I think 15 consecutive months and one time. And these happened like at 2015, 2017, 2013, if I'm not mistaken. Somebody can search this and verify it. And even at one point, Ehud Barack said, I actually didn't know about his dealings in the past. I didn't know that he had these things that were said. Which is kind of naive to say that being the Prime Minister.

[Michael Wolff]

Ehud is full of shit. Ehud knew Jeffrey. I mean, did Ehud know that Jeffreys. That Jeffrey Epstein had clearly had a fetish for young girls? I don't know to what extent Ehud knew that, but Ehud certainly was not, did not know as he now represents Jeffrey Epstein on a casual basis. They were close, close, close friends.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Did you. What did you. What was your feeling about Ehud when you were around? It was it just like it was nonchalant? They were just hanging out because the investment Epstein had made, I think in carbine 911. Or did you. What feeling did you get from him? Yeah, good.

[Michael Wolff]

Bad indifference completely. Ehud was there, came to Jeff, Jeffrey Epstein's because he enjoyed it. He enjoyed meeting other people. He enjoyed. I mean, Ehud who, as I say, I, you know, have spent a lot of time with him with now Ehud is an incredible gas bag. You know, I think that he will go. Oh my God, you know, he would go anywhere, he would be anywhere in any situation in which people were. He had a captive audience to listen to him go on and on and on and on. And you Know, and Jeffrey Epstein listened to him. He indulged him for, you know, I mean, I mean, Ehud. Ehud gave, you know, I mean, I would say in any hour block of conversation a. Who might supply five minutes of, of interesting information.

[Patrick Bet-David]

When you were on episode 55 minutes. I haven't heard that word in a long time. Did you see, when you were there on your visits, did you see young girls that, did you see a lot of pretty girls that. Did you see models there? Was that something that was part of the energy of being in this place or not at all?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, there, there were always a, a set of young women and, and I mean young women. They would clearly have been in their 20s.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, possibly even late 20s.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That's all for him though. I wouldn't be surprised if he.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. Yeah. No. Who were there as assistants and you know, basically, basically assistance.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Define assistance. Because there's a lot of ways to assist men.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, no, they did, they took, they, they made his appointments and they.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Oh, assistants. Like assistants, or do you think they were assisting like.

[Michael Wolff]

No, no, they were assistants. Like, like they were the receptionists. They were the, the this. They would come in, they would, they would bring him.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Forgive me, I thought you meant something else. So, okay, so you're saying they were his personal assistants that were there and are they bringing you tea, coffee? Hey, would you like.

[Michael Wolff]

They did, they did all of, all of that. I mean, I always equated them. You know, if you live in New York, where I've lived for, for a long time, you know, there are high end art galleries in which there are always clearly young women who are the receptionists and who are there to kind of guide you, give you information. And they all are clearly chosen because of their poise and the way they present. And that's what these women in Epstein's house. And I think they were different from the women, you know, the massage women in Palm beach and then the set of Eastern European models that, that, that, that would, that you would occasionally see. You know, I think that there were this, this was so, this was part of this carefully orchestrated ecosystem of women around Jeffrey Epstein.

[Patrick Bet-David]

When you were at his place, did Bill Gates or Barack Obama ever come by or. No, you did not see them there?

[Michael Wolff]

No, I don't think Barack Obama knows Epstein. Bill Gates. Yes.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So Bill, you did see Bill Gates visit. So he was around. Oh, okay, got it. Because I think his wife at the end, you know, when she said something in one of the interviews where she's like, I was not comfortable how Close he was getting to Epstein. And even Bill Gates in another interview later on said, yes, I probably shouldn't have gotten close to him, et cetera, et cetera. We've seen this interview. You definitely have seen it as well.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, and I think that that's a. I mean, I think Gates and Epstein were actually quite close. And certainly as long ago as 2014, Epstein related conversations to me about. About Gates complaining to Epstein about his marriage and his wife. So I think that it was a. You know, and I mean, one of the things that. That Epstein did and one of the things that he was involved in when he. When he was involved with these very, very wealthy men, he got involved in. In family matters that impacted on the fortunes. On these various fortunes, and obviously, divorce impacts on a great fortune.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Got it. So this is the whole idea about, hey, let's take this money and put it elsewhere pre getting married and pay a consulting fee to prevent from having to pay half of it. Creative ways of not paying as much to your spouse if you go through a divorce.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay, got it. In regards to the business model, did you guys talk about how he makes money? I mean, how he originally made his money? Because we did.

[Michael Wolff]

And that's always. You know, I think that that's one of those. One of those aspects of his life that was very compartmentalized. I mean, I have had this discussion with him, but do not feel that. I certainly didn't feel that I was getting the whole story. Quite. Quite the opposite. It was rather. He was. He. He kind of teased you with the story, you know, for at. I mean, he told me once, he said. When I pressed him, you know, and I said, okay, tell me, come on, where it is. Where does the dough come from? I mean, I've seen him, you know, in. In. In many instances. I never saw him, however, do a lick of work. So what was going on? Where did this come from? And he said. And I remember he said again, in a very teasy kind of way, he said, well, I run something like a reverse Ponzi scheme. In a real Ponzi scheme, you make money that does not exist, appear to exist. In my Ponzi scheme, I make money that exists, appear not to exist. And the example was, if you're a wealth, very wealthy person and getting a divorce, and if you hide $100 million or at least make $100 million of your wealth disappear, you've just made. Saved $50 million.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah. There was a guy that Mark Epstein told me that was Epstein's mentor. I don't remember the gentleman's name. He went away, and he was in the. Stephen. What's his name? Stephen Hoffberg. He's Stephen, yes. Hoffenberg. I don't know if you know about. Okay, yeah, so I. Do that name ever come up or no, between the two of you?

[Michael Wolff]

You know, it came up in the. Hoffenberg who. Who Epstein had been involved with, and Hoffenberg had an insurance company that collapsed, and Hoffenberg went to jail for a long time, like 15 years. And then he got out of jail and he started to press Epstein for what? I don't exactly know, but that was something I was aware of going on in the. In the background. Now, Mark Epstein, just, by the way, you know, had also not been really. His relationship with his brother had. Had been. Was at best, strained for quite a number of years.

[Patrick Bet-David]

He said that as well. He said that as well, that they were not as close. I said, you guys live a few minutes with each other. How often do you guys have dinner or lunch together? Not that often. Maybe once every couple. I'm like, you're a few minutes away. So that was a very interesting dynamic as well.

[Michael Wolff]

The relationship between my understanding of that and I don't have a complete understanding because, I mean, that was not something that Epstein seemed to want to talk about, was that his brother distanced. After Epstein's legal difficulties beginning in 2004, his brother, like Ghislaine, distanced himself from. From Jeffrey Epstein.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So two people who he contacted last before he passed away, one of them was his German girlfriend, who was Korean.

[Michael Wolff]

She was not German. She was from. As I understand. And, I mean, I had met her a few times from Belarus.

[Patrick Bet-David]

She was from Belarus. We got to get this right, because, you know, the guys. Her name is Karina Schuliak. Karina Shulem. Belarus. Okay? So from Belarus. And I said, German, forgive me to all the people from Belarus. I didn't want to offend you. So he calls her last one, but he texts you last. What were the last text exchanges with him? And exactly how much longer after his last text to you did he die?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, you know, I think that. I mean, it was not a text, really. It came through his lawyers, so he couldn't text. He was given. They had gotten him the clearance to call the girlfriend. But my. My. The message to me had come through one of the lawyers. I mean, I knew the lawyers, and I passed them a message. I said, you know, I mean, just. And the message that I sent to him was, you know, you know, how Are you doing? Or, you know, just that kind of, that kind of thing. And his response to that message was, and the context of this is that's about a week before he had apparently tried to hang himself, or that's what people said. Or again, a confusing situation. But his response to me was, quote, still hanging around. How are you still hanging around? And then X number of hours later. I mean, this was on Friday, early on Saturday morning, he was found, you know, with a bed sheet around his neck.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That's a weird text. So, so the lawyer sends you a text of his last mention saying, still hanging around. Maybe he was hanging around, meaning the lawyer saying he's dying. So the lawyer told you, still hanging around. That could be a cryptic message.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I mean, I, I don't know. I mean, it is a cryptic, but, you know, it is. I, I mean, in, in my understanding of, of Epstein and how he responded to things, he was responding to that, the, the, the, the news coverage of that he had apparently tried to hang himself, but then they actually said he hadn't tried. There was a, there was a dispute about that. And that was his reference to make a joke out of that, which would have been very. Jeffrey Epstein.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Ish. Did Nicholas Tortagliano ever come up? The, the, his cellmate, the guy that, you know, multiple times beat up the same person on four different occasions?

[Michael Wolff]

Didn't come up, didn't come up with, with me. I mean, those are the communication. That's the only communication I would. With our direct communication with the last.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Few minutes we have together here, Michael. So this is why I wish this was face to face. We could go four hours. But last conversation about Trump. So you're not a fan of Trump. Some would even say, you know, you have animosity towards him, maybe even hate towards him. It's felt that way. If I watch you in the interviews, what. Where does your feeling towards Trump comes from?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I don't, I mean, you know, I feel that, that, that Donald Trump is, should not be the President of the United States is not, is not the kind of person I would certainly elect as the President of the United States, is not the kind of person who can carry out what I know to be the demands of being the President of the United States. I mean, Donald Trump, I don't hate Donald Trump. I have no personal animosity toward Donald Trump. As a matter of fact, when we get, when we're together, we, we get along just fine. And I've known Donald Trump for quite a long time back in, in, in In New York days. So I, you know, I just, I just, I just feel that all of his, his impulses as the President of the United States are ultimately damaging and, and, and counterproductive.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You think some of these stories of, you know, Melania, you know, how he met her and Epstein, ties, you know, do you think some of these could be coming from a place? Because everybody tried to get them on Russia that came back, that wasn't good. Everybody tried to get him on all this stuff with 2024, hey, here's his mug shot. And every single time it seems like it's become the next hoax and the next hoax. So maybe people right now are saying, you really think there's any ties with Epstein and Trump? Well, I think that people need to.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, there are clearly ties with Epstein and Trump.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I mean, but anything nefarious. Nefarious.

[Michael Wolff]

Nefarious. Well, I, it's how you define. I don't know. This is what I know. I won't even try to define that. That they were friends for, well, more than a decade, almost, almost 15 years. They were interested, both of them were interested primarily in the two things they were interested in were women, girls and money. Get rich quick money stuff. And the girls, women, girls they were interested in, obsessively, so fetishistically in a way, were models. And remember, this was the age of them. Model supermodels, Runway models, catalog models, Eastern European models, and a wide population of girls who just dreamed of being models. That's what they saw as status. That was the thing that turned them on, I suppose. You know, Trump's interest in beauty pageants, Epstein with Victoria's Secret girls, that's what they were in constant pursuit of. And then people say to me, but you don't mean to say that Donald Trump was interested in little girls. And I say, listen, what I know is they were interested in models. How old are models? Models and certainly at that point in time were anywhere from, you know, I don't know, 14 to 20, basically.

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[Patrick Bet-David]

I don't, when I hear models, I don't think 14 to 20, I think, you know, well then you would be.

[Michael Wolff]

Incorrect in that because that's what they were.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah. No, I, I'm sure there's young models there. I'm sure there's. And that's not what I'm saying, but what I'm saying is, you know, it's easy to the gossip intel when they flirt with each other, right? So that leads to accusations, and then everyone's writing about it and the next thing you know, like the story, you know, the story I read about Princess Diana, you know, the competition between the two. Did you share that story or was that story shared by somebody?

[Michael Wolff]

I did.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Would you mind sharing that story?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, that was just the kind of, you know, they were. They were deeply interested in the Royal Family, both of them. And why were they interested in the Royal Family? Because the Royal Family was a. Was a great social climbing vector. You remember Donald Trump? Both Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein are always trying to raise money. Where do we get money from? And you know, Donald Trump by that point had gone through several bankruptcies. I mean, nobody at this point is blue chip. So how do you raise money? Fairly large sums of money? Well, you raise money by knowing people who can give you access to money. How do you know those people? Well, there are lots of ways, lots of social climbing ways, but one of them, the best ways is to know someone in the Royal Family. So it was both Donald Trump and, and Jeffrey Epstein became in hot pursuit of access to the Royal Family, most successfully with Prince Andrew. But at one point then they had this competition and it was, you know, this was this. I don't know how serious this was or how it was just to amuse them about who would be the first one to sleep with Diana. This was after the marriage to Charles had basically broken up.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Did anybody win.

[Michael Wolff]

That? I don't know.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I don't know if Jeffrey told you this, but Michael, I. We're at the time of one hour. I want to respect your time in the calendar and schedule you gave me. I, I appreciate the time. I know it's not often you get on podcasts that are maybe not mainstream or somebody that could be potentially seen as the complete opposite side. So I appreciate you for making the.

[Michael Wolff]

Time and delighted, because I am. Listen, many of the. Most of the people I seem to spend my time with are actually, are actually Trump. Trump people who I have over 10 years, which is why I'm so well sourced, become very friendly with them. I like Trump people.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Very cool.

[Michael Wolff]

I don't like Trump, but I like Trump people.

[Patrick Bet-David]

But you have good times with Trump. So I don't know what happened there between the two of you guys, it sounds like you enjoy his time, you just maybe not like his policies. And yeah, we don't go to the.

[Michael Wolff]

I always find, I mean, I mean, spending time with Trump is always certainly fascinating.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Makes sense. Michael, till next time, thank you so much for your time. We're going to put the link to all your books below as well, for those who want to go pick up the books. Thank you again. Take care.

[Michael Wolff]

Bye bye. Bye bye.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Nowadays, more than ever, the brand you wear reflects and represent who you are. So for us, if you wear a Future Looks bright hat or a valuetainment gear, you're telling the world, I'm optimistic, I'm excited about what's going to be happening. But you're a free thinker. You question things, you like, debate. And by the way, last year, 120,000 people got a piece of Future Looks Bright geared with valuetainment. We have so many new things. The cufflinks are here. New Future Looks Bright. This is my favorite, the green one. Just yesterday, somebody placed an order for a hundred of these. If you watch the PBD podcast, you got a bunch to choose from. White ones, black ones. If you, if you, if you smoke cigars and you come to our cigar lounge, we have this high quality lighter cutter and a holder for the cigars. We got sweaters with the valuetainment logo on it, we got mugs, we got a bunch of different things. But if you believe the Future Looks bright, if you follow our content and what we represent with valuetainment with PVD podcast, go to vtmerch.com and by the way, if you order right now, there's going to be a special VT gift insight just for you. So again, go to vtmerch.com, place your order, tell the world that you believe the future looks bright.