PBD Podcast Ep. 632 | Michael Wolff Opens Up About Epstein, Trump, Intel & Clintons

Release Date: August 19, 2025
Host: Patrick Bet-David
Guest: Michael Wolff (NYT bestselling author, "Fire and Fury")

Episode Overview

In this compelling episode, Patrick Bet-David sits down with journalist and author Michael Wolff for an in-depth discussion centered on Wolff’s extensive interactions with Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump. Wolff reveals details from his “hundreds of hours” of conversations with Epstein, sharing insights on Epstein’s relationships, business dealings, alleged blackmail operations, the circumstances surrounding Epstein’s death, and speculated intelligence ties. The conversation also explores Epstein’s social circle—including high-profile names like Bill Clinton, Bill Gates, Ghislaine Maxwell, and Ehud Barak—and offers an unvarnished behind-the-scenes view of one of the most infamous figures of recent decades. Wolff draws distinct parallels between Epstein and Trump, both personally and socially, and discusses the pervasive rumors surrounding their circle.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Context: Wolff's Relationship with Epstein and Trump

• Wolff’s Interaction with Epstein

  • Met through New York Magazine (2004–05) but no real interaction until after Epstein’s first jail sentence ([03:59]).
  • In 2014, Epstein approached Wolff to write about him for a potential PR rehabilitation ([03:59]).
  • Over the next five years, Wolff spent “hundreds of hours,” recording conversations—amounting to what he calls Epstein’s “autobiography” ([09:31], [13:53]).
  • Epstein wanted to facilitate interactions with influential guests at his home.

• Relationship with Trump

  • Wolff covered Trump's 2015 presidential campaign and presidency.
  • Epstein became a “window” into Trump as they had been extraordinarily close—“the most important non-family relationship in each other's lives” ([04:34]).

2. Epstein, Trump, and the Real Estate Fallout

• Fallout Over Real Estate Deal
  • Former close friends, their relationship dissolved over a 2004 real estate bidding war in Palm Beach ([09:31], [12:26]).
  • Epstein believed Trump betrayed him by winning the property, suspecting money laundering due to his knowledge of Trump’s finances ([10:55]).
  • After this, Epstein suspected Trump tipped off police about Epstein’s illegal activities ([12:50]).

Quote:
“Epstein believed that it was Trump who first informed the police about what was going on at Epstein’s house.”
— Michael Wolff ([12:50])

3. Insights into Influential Connections

• Bill Clinton

  • Clinton “turned his back on Epstein” post-scandal; Epstein saw Clinton as a “fair-weather friend” ([14:15]).
  • Their relationship ended abruptly when legal issues surfaced.

• Ghislaine Maxwell

  • By 2004–05, Maxwell “very much distanced herself” from Epstein ([15:42]), acting primarily as a paid functionary, not a partner ([17:06]).
  • Her later conviction tied to acts from their earlier relationship ([18:28]).

• Bill Gates

  • Epstein and Gates had a relationship; Gates complained to Epstein about his marriage ([50:26]).
  • Wolff affirms he saw Gates at Epstein’s residence ([50:06]).

• Ehud Barak (Israel, Mossad Rumors)

  • Barak and Epstein were very close; Barak visited frequently ([41:53]).
  • Speculation of Mossad ties is dismissed: Epstein was a “gossip,” not an intelligence asset ([43:47]).
  • “Ehud is an incredible gas bag. [... ] Ehud knew Jeffrey. [...] They were close, close, close friends.” ([46:27], [45:41])

Quote:
“My view of Epstein, however, is that he possessed ... gossip rather than intelligence.”
— Michael Wolff ([43:47])

4. The Social Scene at Epstein’s Mansion

• Mansion Details

  • Not a penthouse—a “mansion” that dwarfed neighboring homes ([18:50]).
  • Epstein claimed to have purchased the property from Lex Wexner as a financial transaction, not a gift ([20:16]).

• Odd Art and Social Dynamics

  • Clinton painting: a joke, potentially a symbol of bitterness after Clinton distanced himself ([22:22], [24:23]).
  • Art and decor were used to amuse or signal, not always seriously ([22:22]).

5. Epstein’s Business Model & Wealth

• Epstein kept the origins of his wealth mysterious and compartmentalized ([51:51]).
• Once described his strategy as a “reverse Ponzi scheme”—making real money “disappear” for wealthy divorcees ([53:25]).
• Connections to Steven Hoffenberg, accused Ponzi schemer and early mentor ([53:45]).

Quote:
“[Epstein said:] In a real Ponzi scheme, you make money that does not exist appear to exist. In my Ponzi scheme, I make money that exists, appear not to exist.”
— Michael Wolff ([52:12])

6. Recordings, Legality, & Possibility of Disclosure

• Wolff owns recordings from his interviews. Steve Bannon’s Epstein tapes legally belong to Epstein’s estate, not Bannon ([31:52]).
• No “bombshell,” single-event revelations—more a deep, complex portrait suitable for a biography ([34:03]).
• FBI/DOJ have not approached Wolff about the recordings ([39:23]).
• Wolff says he will not sell the tapes; he sees them as journalistic property ([39:29]).

7. Epstein’s Final Days and Death

• Via lawyer, Epstein’s last message to Wolff: “still hanging around” ([56:08])—interpreted as a dark joke after an alleged suicide attempt.
• No direct mention of cellmate Nicholas Tortagliano in their exchanges ([58:25]).

8. Wolff’s Perspective on Trump and Epstein

• Wolff is clear: he considers both Trump and Epstein “bad guys” with similar impulses ([29:32], [29:56]).
• Trump and Epstein shared obsessions with “women, girls, and money,” especially models, who were often very young ([60:33]).
• Wolff states, “they were friends for, well, more than a decade...” ([60:29]).

Quote:
“Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein are very much similar people. That’s why Epstein ... supplies a window into who Donald Trump is, because they were ... so close, but also so close in their interests.”
— Michael Wolff ([29:56])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the social climb:
  “They were interested, both of them were interested primarily in the two things they were interested in were women, girls and money ... the girls ... models ... anywhere from, you know, ... 14 to 20, basically.” ([60:33])

• Regarding 'intel':
  “My view of Epstein, however, is that he was ... a great gossip, a great purveyor of information ... He certainly had no one client he was passing information to.” ([43:47])

• Epstein’s last message:
  “His response ... was, quote, still hanging around. How are you?” ([56:08])

• License to gossip, not spy:
  “I'm not sure that ... you would necessarily want your intelligence agent to be one of the world's biggest gossips because he couldn't contain himself.” ([44:45])

Section Timestamps for Important Segments

• Epstein & Trump Relationship: [04:34] – [13:30]
• Clinton & Maxwell Discussion: [13:53] – [18:28]
• Wexner Mansion & Art: [18:50] – [23:47]
• Business Model & Hoffenberg: [51:41] – [53:45]
• Ehud Barak & Mossad Rumors: [41:23] – [46:27]
• Social Atmosphere at Epstein’s House: [47:22] – [49:53]
• Final Communications Before Death: [55:22] – [57:39]
• Trump: Parallels and Relationship: [59:00] – [61:00]
• Royal Family & Social Aspiration: [63:18] – [64:50]

Tone and Closing

Throughout the discussion, Wolff approaches even salacious claims with a journalist’s skepticism and a preference for nuance over sensationalism, pushing back against simple conspiracy narratives. While unsparing in his critique of characters like Trump and Epstein, he makes clear that the tapes he holds illuminate a complex, often contradictory, and profoundly secretive world—one he will only reveal in his own way and on his own terms.

“I’m a writer. ... This is my story. Not anyone else's story.”
— Michael Wolff ([40:10])

[End of Summary]