"Shouldn’t Have Resigned" - Ken Khachigian Reveals Nixon’s Paranoia, Reagan’s Mistakes, Bush’s Secrets | PBD Podcast

Summary

PBD Podcast Episode Summary: "Shouldn’t Have Resigned" - Ken Khachigian Reveals Nixon’s Paranoia, Reagan’s Mistakes, Bush’s Secrets

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of the PBD Podcast, host Patrick Bet-David engages in an in-depth conversation with Ken Khachigian, a legendary Armenian figure who has been intimately involved in the highest echelons of American politics. Khachigian, the author of Behind Closed Doors, shares his unique insights and firsthand experiences working with Presidents Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, and George H.W. Bush. This summary delves into their discussions, highlighting key points, notable quotes, and the overarching narratives that reshape our understanding of these historical figures.

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Ken Khachigian's Background

Ken Khachigian's remarkable journey from the son of Armenian genocide survivors to a pivotal figure in American political history sets the stage for his invaluable perspectives.

• Early Life and Education
  • Raised in Visalia, California, Khachigian pursued higher education at UC Santa Barbara and later Columbia Law School.
  • His passion for politics was evident early on, participating in events like Boys State and actively engaging with political figures such as Nixon during his gubernatorial campaigns.

Notable Quote:

“It's been an amazing life.” – Ken Khachigian [03:08]

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Entering the Nixon Campaign

Khachigian recounts his initial interactions with Richard Nixon, illustrating how a persistent effort led to a pivotal opportunity in Nixon's presidential campaign.

• Initial Contact with Nixon
  • In 1967, while a second-year law student, Khachigian sent a typewritten letter to Nixon's law office seeking involvement in his presidential campaign.
  • Persistence paid off when Pat Buchanan, an aide to Nixon, responded, leading to an interview and eventual staffing within Nixon's campaign.

Notable Quote:

“I was 23 years old. Second year law student.” – Ken Khachigian [06:13]

• Role in the Campaign
  • Working alongside Alan Greenspan, Khachigian contributed to Nixon's domestic policy research, gaining invaluable experience and insight into political strategy.

Notable Quote:

“Alan Greenspan was the domestic policy advisor for Nixon and the campaign.” – Ken Khachigian [08:36]

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Interaction with Nixon Post-Resignation

After Nixon's resignation in 1974, Khachigian's relationship with him deepened, offering a rare glimpse into Nixon's resilience and strategic mindset.

• Meeting Nixon Post-Resignation
  • Invited to assist Nixon in San Clemente, California, Khachigian helped manage Nixon's financial restructuring amidst legal challenges.
  • Nixon's forward-thinking attitude during this tumultuous period showcased his determination to rebuild his life and legacy.

Notable Quote:

“We can't look back. We have to look forward.” – Richard Nixon to Ken Khachigian [21:09]

• Contribution to Nixon’s Memoirs and Frost Interviews
  • Khachigian played a crucial role in preparing Nixon for his memoirs and the famous Frost/Nixon interviews, ensuring Nixon's narrative was effectively communicated to the public.

Notable Quote:

“He was always open to ideas and open to… It's just that you can't have people swarming into candidates and swarming into the president.” – Ken Khachigian [17:38]

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Working with Ronald Reagan

Transitioning from Nixon to Reagan, Khachigian's role evolved as he became Reagan's Chief Speechwriter, influencing some of the most significant speeches of Reagan's presidency.

• Joining the Reagan Campaign
  • Introduced to Reagan through Stuart Spencer, Khachigian became a key figure in Reagan's campaign, eventually securing the position of Chief Speechwriter.
  • His collaboration with Nancy Reagan proved pivotal in stabilizing Reagan during critical campaign moments.

Notable Quote:

“Nancy… comes on the plane and it steadied him because he always needed her by his side.” – Ken Khachigian [64:14]

• Influence on Reagan’s Policies
  • Khachigian recounts moments where Reagan sought his input on policy shifts, notably during the preparation for the Geneva Summit with Gorbachev.
  • The episode highlights Reagan's willingness to adapt his rhetoric and strategies based on evolving geopolitical landscapes.

Notable Quote:

“He wants a different approach to Gorbachev before the summit.” – Ken Khachigian [70:50]

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Insights into Nixon’s Personality and Leadership

Khachigian challenges the common perceptions of Nixon, portraying him as more approachable and open-minded than the public image suggests.

• Debunking Nixon's Reputation
  • Contrary to popular belief, Khachigian found Nixon to be warm and approachable, especially when discussing politics, baseball, or family.
  • Nixon's strategic mind was evident, as he was adept at reading people and studying their traits to make informed decisions.

Notable Quote:

“He was more than approachable. The conversations flowed freely, especially if you started talking about something he was comfortable with.” – Ken Khachigian [31:09]

• Nixon’s Leadership During Crisis
  • Khachigian describes Nixon's resilience post-resignation and his ability to maintain composure under intense scrutiny and pressure.

Notable Quote:

“He made an impression on me.” – Ken Khachigian [04:18]

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Challenges and Mistakes in Reagan’s Administration

The conversation delves into the internal conflicts and strategic missteps within Reagan's team, particularly focusing on the influence of Jim Baker.

• Conflict with Jim Baker
  • Baker, Reagan's Chief of Staff, introduced dynamics that Khachigian believes were detrimental to Reagan's policy goals.
  • Differences in vision led to tensions, especially regarding economic policies and budgetary decisions.

Notable Quote:

“He said it was like cutting off his right arm and his left arm.” – Ken Khachigian [43:15]

• Reagan’s Reflections
  • Reagan later expressed regret over certain decisions, such as tax policies, acknowledging the negative impact of internal manipulations.

Notable Quote:

“I think he got screwed and I got lied to.” – Ken Khachigian [70:50]

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Relationship with George H.W. Bush

Khachigian highlights his interactions with George H.W. Bush, emphasizing Bush’s integrity and the respect Reagan held for him.

• Positive Interactions
  • Collaborated with Bush during Nixon's impeachment defense, earning a courtesy call from Bush, showcasing mutual respect.
  • Described Bush as a gentleman with unwavering loyalty, contrasting him with other political figures.

Notable Quote:

“He was always the nicest gentleman I've ever known.” – Ken Khachigian [89:12]

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Reflections on Political Dynamics and Legacy

Towards the episode's conclusion, Khachigian offers his perspectives on contemporary politics, drawing parallels with historical figures and emphasizing the importance of integrity and strategic decision-making.

• Contemporary Political Climate
  • Discussed the challenges faced by current Republican figures and the lack of support from influential predecessors like the Bush family.
  • Expressed his views on President Trump, noting both his strengths and areas for improvement.

Notable Quote:

“I'm a Khachigian Republican. I believe in lower taxes, I believe in a strong national defense, I believe in anti-crime policies, I believe in a strong border, I believe in a strong foreign policy.” – Ken Khachigian [92:50]

• Legacy of Nixon and Reagan
  • Emphasized that Nixon and Reagan were products of their times, each contributing uniquely to the shaping of modern American politics.
  • Urged listeners to seek nuanced understandings beyond popular narratives.

Notable Quote:

“You can't have... people take advantage of you.” – Ken Khachigian [17:38]

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Conclusion

Ken Khachigian's extensive experience and candid reflections provide a nuanced portrayal of some of America's most iconic presidents. Through his stories and insights, listeners gain a deeper appreciation of the complexities within political leadership and the personal dynamics that influence historical events. Behind Closed Doors emerges as a must-read for those interested in the authentic narratives behind the public personas of Nixon, Reagan, and Bush.

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Notable Moments and Quotes

• Ken’s Persistence Meeting Nixon:

  “I become I'm the, I'm the one.” – Ken Khachigian [01:20]

• Nixon’s Forward-Looking Mindset:

  “We have to look ahead. We can't look back. We have to look forward.” – Richard Nixon [21:09]

• Reagan’s Change in Strategy:

  “Mr. President, you’re not actually raising taxes.” – Ken Khachigian [70:50]

• Reagan’s Regret Over Staff Decisions:

  “What a rebel. What a revelation that was.” – Ronald Reagan Simulation by Patrick Bet-David [28:59]

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Final Thoughts

This episode serves as a bridge connecting historical political strategies with contemporary dynamics, offering valuable lessons on leadership, resilience, and the importance of behind-the-scenes efforts in shaping public policy. Ken Khachigian’s tales are not just stories of the past but serve as a guide for future political endeavors.

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Support the PBD Podcast

If you enjoyed this episode, consider supporting the PBD Podcast to keep these insightful conversations coming. Support Here

Transcript

[Patrick Bet-David]

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[Ken Khachikian]

I become I'm the, I'm the one.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So we were planning on doing this interview today all in Armenian. And I said most of our audience, they're English speaking, you know, well maybe we'll make a couple comments about Armenians here in a minute. But let me tell you why I'm sitting down with a legendary voting yes. I'm sitting out with a legendary Armenian who has been in many rooms that you would love to be in while major decisions are being made. Let me unpack it for you. So think about your name is President Nixon. You're under a lot of scrutiny Watergate, you're about to go be doing the interview with Frost. Nixon. Everybody's like oh my God, you're going to resign, they're going to fire you, got impeach. All this stuff's going to be happening to you and you're assigned as the chief researcher and you're there preparing him for the interview with Nixon. That's my guest today. And I imagine if you get a phone call from a two time governor in California who was one of the sexiest man alive at the time, loved an actor, married to a beautiful wife, gets into politics, wins as the president of SAG is doing stuff or GE on the road going up there talking about how America is the greatest country in the world and this man, this, this man named President Reagan calls you and says I want you to be my chief speech Writer. And he says, wait, you want me to be the chief speech. I want you to be my chief speech writer. I want you to write my inaugural address. I want you to. It's some of these things we're working on. I want you to be there for me. This is the man. So imagine those conversations behind closed doors, decisions being made, all of this going on at the same time. This man has personally witnessed. And he's got a book that just came out called Behind Closed Doors. The one and only Ken Khachikian. I say like that in Armenian. English we may say Ken Khachikian. It's great to have you here.

[Ken Khachikian]

Good to be here, Patrick.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So what a resume. I mean, what a life you've lived.

[Ken Khachikian]

It's amazing. Never thought it could happen. It has been an amazing life.

[Patrick Bet-David]

From Armenian parents who escaped the genocide, who were from Turkey. Armenians from Turkey come here. They raise a son who is from Visalia, which I know Visalia right outside of a McFarland, probably close to Bakersfield, maybe 40 minutes away from Bakersfield, Fresno area, great area. And then you go to Cal State, you go to UC Santa Barbara or Cal State Santa Barbara, you go to.

[Ken Khachikian]

UC Santa Barbara, Santa Barbara.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And you go to Columbia, I think Columbia Law School. And then you come out and at the time, somehow, some way, Nixon gets a hold of you. Right. If you don't mind sharing that story, how that took place and it will go to into a bunch of questions I got for you.

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, I was a second year law student at Columbia. I loved politics. I loved it ever since I was in high school. I went to Boys State, California, Boys State when I was in high school and actually saw Nixon when I was at UC Santa Barbara. We were on the debate team and I cornered him when he was running for governor. And for two minutes I read Six Crises. And I was bored with law school. But anyway, I had to finish law school.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Who was he when you. When you saw him? Was he already president? Was.

[Ken Khachikian]

No, no, he was running for governor. He lost for president. He's running for governor.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What year is this?

[Ken Khachikian]

1962.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay, got it.

[Ken Khachikian]

And he was campaigning in Santa Barbara and I was on the debate team. And we, after he spoke, we cornered him just for two minutes. Anyway, I just saw him and anyway, flash forward to 1967.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Was two minutes long enough where you made an impression that he remembered you?

[Ken Khachikian]

No, no. Okay, got it. But he made an impression on me.

[Patrick Bet-David]

The other way around.

[Ken Khachikian]

Got it.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay.

[Ken Khachikian]

He gave me some time and I liked the man. Then I read his book, Six Crises, 1967. Now, flash forward. I'm in law school, second year law student. He's running for president again. Now he's a. Has been. He lost in 60, he lost in 62. He was not the front runner for president in 1967. Nelson Rockefeller was the front runner. George Romney was the front runner. And Ronald Reagan had just been elected governor in California in 66, and everybody thought he might be president. So Nixon was below the pack. But I liked him, and I thought, you know, this might be an opportunity to get involved in a presidential campaign. So I'm a law student, so I write. And I read an article in the New York Times and says it's the new Nixon. And he has a younger crowd around him and he's developing a new personality. So I wrote a letter to him at his law office. I typed it out on a typewriter. Remember typewriter?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Of course I do. I learned how to type with a typewriter.

[Ken Khachikian]

I wrote a letter on a typewriter and sent it to his law office in New York. I didn't get her answer back. I thought, that's pretty rude.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You did not get an answer back?

[Ken Khachikian]

No. And so I called his office, and they were very polite. They said, well, maybe it got lost in the mail. Why don't you send it again? Well, I kept a carbon copy. You know, you had to keep carbon copies in those days.

[Patrick Bet-David]

How old are you at this time?

[Ken Khachikian]

I'm 23 years old. Second year law student. Okay. So I rewrite the letter, type it out all over again. Now, my wife's working on Wall street two blocks from his law office. She's at 30 Wall street, he's at 20 Broad Street. So I type it, she hand delivers it to his law office, and about three weeks later, I finally get an answer back from Pat Buchanan. Pat Buchanan's working for him as an aide to Nixon. And he says, you know what? I'm sorry your letter got mixed up. Come in for an interview. I still have that letter, and I have an interview with Pat Buchanan. He kids me to this day. He says, I thought you were a spy for Rockefeller because you were at Columbia Law School. So we have an interview. It didn't go great, but still he let me come in for.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What does that interview look like?

[Ken Khachikian]

What is that?

[Patrick Bet-David]

What do you ask? I mean, at that point.

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, he's asking me questions because I was portraying myself from. I said, I have an expertise in farming because I grew up on a farm.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I saw you.

[Ken Khachikian]

Then he starts asking me questions about the Brandon plan and things like that. I didn't know about that stuff. And I said, oh, I acted really stupid. But basically he saw in me an eager. Someone who's eager. There's a word in Armenian, Jarbig.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Jarpik. Yeah, Jarpik is sharp, resourceful, right? Yeah, yeah, right.

[Ken Khachikian]

And clever. So he saw someone who wanted to move up, and so he said, come on in and you can volunteer. Well, there was only about 15 people there working in the office because people weren't crazy about Nixon back then. So I said, I'll do whatever you want me to do. I don't want to start at the top. So I started answering correspondence, but every chance I got, I would volunteer to work, do this, do that. I provided research, and Martin Anderson, who was at Hoover Institution at the time doing domestic policy advice for Nixon, saw that I was sort of an eager beaver and a Columbia law student. And when Nixon started doing well, and then he won the primaries, and then come that summer, they offered me a job, and I got hired to work in the campaign in the summer of 1968, working for Guess who? Alan Greenspan.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Wow.

[Ken Khachikian]

And Alan Greenspan was the domestic policy advisor for Nixon and the campaign. Now, Alan Greenspan was an economic consultant at the time. He was sort of a odd character.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Who would he have been today? Who is he today?

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, me today. You know, he was federal. He was head of the Federal Reserve.

[Patrick Bet-David]

No, I totally get that. Meaning a Alan Greenspan at that time. If you compare to an Alan Greenspan of today, who was today's Alan Greenspan.

[Ken Khachikian]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Is there a way to make that comparison, or.

[Ken Khachikian]

No, I can't even think of. I mean, Alan Grienspan played in the. He played the clarinet, and I think he played the clarinet in Woody Herman's jazz band back in the 60s or in the 50s, along with Nixon's law partner. That's how they knew each other. And then he became an economic consultant. He was sort of a nerd. Economic nerd.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Was he sharp when you met him? Was he as sharp were you? Like, this guy's impressive.

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, he was sharp, but he was. He was sort of spacey. He was sort of a space cadet. You know what I mean? He was interesting out there in Never Neverland. He wanted me to quit law school. He said, you know, you should quit law school because we're going to win this election and we'll get your job in the White House. I said, after all this time, my four years of undergraduate work, two years of law school, you're Going to have me quit law school after all this? That's crazy. No, I'm not going to quit law school. He was out in this other world, but he was a genius. I mean, you could tell he was very cerebral.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Did he think highly of himself? Was he arrogant?

[Ken Khachikian]

No, no.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Grand wars?

[Ken Khachikian]

No, no, not in the least. No, no, no. He was down to earth, and he was very cerebral, very smart and. But I didn't just report to him. I reported to a lot of others as well. But I. But he was my direct boss. But.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So when you're doing this, what is your intention? What are you trying to be? Are you. Here's a guy that is in debate, right? You're in the debate groups and all the stuff they're doing at Columbia, right? You're going through where you're studying politics. You have the interest. Who do you want to be? Are you in the back of your mind saying, one day I'm going to be a congressman? Are you saying I'm going to be a speechwriter? Am I going to be a doc President? Who am I going to be? What's the.

[Ken Khachikian]

That's an interesting question, because before I got involved in any of that, when I was in high school, I was. Or let's say when I first got into freshman year of college, I thought my goal was to become a US Senator. But by the time I got to this point in my life, in the Nixon campaign, I just wanted to get a job in the White House, and I wanted to somehow make a difference. I didn't know where I was going to end up, to be honest with you. I wanted to have a. I wanted to be in the White House, and I wanted to. I wanted people to see that I could help them make a difference in some way. And I didn't know where I was going to end up. I wasn't like a lot of my colleagues who were searching for power or looking to move up, to be on the top. I just wanted people to notice that I was an eager beaver, wanting to help out. I wanted to get noticed. But also I had a family, too. I wanted real life.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What age did you get married?

[Ken Khachikian]

I got married. I was not quite 20. I was 19 years old.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You got married at 19? So do you have kids already or 19?

[Ken Khachikian]

No, I was between my sophomore and junior year in college, but we didn't have kids until I was, I think, what, 25.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay, so you guys waited six years?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, yeah, we waited until I got out of school.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So now, you saw at this point your. When I'm looking at the history to see what happened in 1962. It says in 1962, Reagan was dropped by GE. Yeah, this is the part where GE didn't like the fact that he was talking too political. And they're just saying, sell how great G is. He's selling how great America is like you're on a rally. And he formally registered as a Republican in 64 US presidential election. Reagan gave a speech for presidential contender Barry Goldwater that was eventually referred to as a time for choosing. We've seen the speech.

[Ken Khachikian]

Right.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Many, many times. So is the temperature high in America with politics? Is that like, I want to be like him when I grow up One day. I want to be on the big stage one day or not really? Not for you?

[Ken Khachikian]

Me? No. No. At that point, I was focused on getting my. Just going to college, doing. Just trying to get by. I had to pay for my own education. We got married. My parents gave us $300. My wife's parents gave us 300 and said, now you're on your own.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So they were loaded. They give you a lot of money. Very rich oil family from the Middle East.

[Ken Khachikian]

Congratulations. Yeah. So from that time, we were on our own. We paid for everything. College loans, working summers, working jobs, whatever it is. So we were just trying to get through school, get through college, get through law school. No, I didn't have any big grandiose goals in life.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So when you started working as a. You said 15 people helping out. Pat gave you a job. He was, he first thought, because you're Columbia, maybe you're on the Rockefeller side because school affiliation link in there. Okay. And then you're like, we'll give you the job you're in. You haven't yet made a name. You're like, let me just get to work and show you what I'm all about.

[Ken Khachikian]

Exactly.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So at what point do you get your opportunity where you're working directly with Nixon? When did you make the impression on him?

[Ken Khachikian]

I didn't get to work with Nixon directly until after he resigned.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Until after he resigned.

[Ken Khachikian]

You know, the White House is a very structured organization. You have. You have very few people have direct contact with the President. You have a massive organization, but you have very few people have very direct contact with the President of the United States. It's a very insular circle that has real direct contact with the President. So that's the same with the Nixon White House and with the Reagan White House. It doesn't matter. So in the Nixon White House, I never had a one on one conversation with the President.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Never.

[Ken Khachikian]

Never. Never.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Not even after he resigned?

[Ken Khachikian]

No. After he resigned, yes.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Pre. You did not.

[Ken Khachikian]

Pre. I did not.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And why is that? Is that because. Because I don't think Trump is like that. Is that because he didn't trust people? When you watched a Nixon movie with Anthony Hopkins, I don't know if you've seen it or. I'm sure you haven't seen it. Why haven't you seen. You've never seen it?

[Ken Khachikian]

No.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Oh, it's actually a pretty good movie to watch. I loved it. I love watching the Knicks. I'm assuming you've seen Frost Nixon. Oh, yeah. Frost, a movie.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah. Right.

[Patrick Bet-David]

When you watch the movie, you're in it. I mean, yeah, Gabriel plays you in the movie, but when you watch Nixon and you see the first time, you know the role his wife plays and he's almost given up, I don't know if I'm going to pull it off. He comes back, he runs, he wins the debate. John F. Kennedy, the tanning bed. He looked good. Shay, 4 o'clock. All this stuff that you hear and then when he's going through it, you don't. You don't feel like he's a guy that trusts a lot of people. You feel like he just didn't trust anybody, that he was typically by himself because he didn't know who he could trust and he couldn't trust. Did he give you the vibes of an overly paranoid guy?

[Ken Khachikian]

No. You know, that's interesting. People say that it's just the way. No, no. You know, he was open to a lot of people. He was open to ideas. It's just the way the situation is structured. I wrote memos to him in the 68 campaign that got to him even though I was just 23 years old. He was always open to ideas and open to. It's just that you can't have people swarming into candidates and swarming into the president or else you won't have an organization. I don't know how many people come on to you in your organization. I don't know how many people have access to you to tell you what to do or to tell you how to run your organization, or if you have a structure organization or when you had your insurance company, if you had junior people able to come out and talk to you directly. Uh, maybe you did, maybe you didn't. But I don't know if Jamie Dimon allows junior people to come and talk to him. I mean, it's just it. And if he doesn't Is he paranoid? I don't know. I. I don't think you can call people paranoid just because they have an organizational structure. Uh, I didn't find him to be paranoid when I got to know him. So that's a bad rap on Nixon that I always feel I should think.

[Patrick Bet-David]

It'S a good quality. I don't think it's a bad quality. I find it as a. I think, you know, here's schizo. Okay, here's paranoid. Yeah, here's naive. Okay, I'm okay with you being here. You cross this, then you're miserable, Right? But I. If you're. If you're here, everyone's taking advantage of you. And this. I don't think you're ready to be a president. I think you need to be a little bit here to size everybody up and study body language and look at somebody and know where they're at. And Nixon gave me a vibe that he was like that.

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, he studied people very carefully. And as I say, even paranoids have real enemies. But he did study people very. He was very shrewd at studying people and very good at studying people and knowing their traits. And at the end of the day, it worked for him really well.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So you got close to him after he resigned?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yes.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And who made the phone call? Did Buchanan make the introduction to him or did he reach out to you directly?

[Ken Khachikian]

What happened was he resigned and left the office on August 9th. Of course, we were all depressed and down. Okay. Who was close to him then was Ron Zigler, his press secretary went with him out to San Clemente after he resigned, along with a handful of other people. Jack Brennan, whose military aide Diane Soria, was with him as one of the aides, press aides. And after about 10 days, eight or nine, 10 days, Ziggler called me up and said, look, we need some help out here. We're short staffed. And I was still on the White House staff. Now President Ford was president, and they said they were short staffed. Can you. You know, Ken, you're loyal to the president. You showed that during the impeachment process. Can you come out and help us out? Because we really have a lot of problems. So I flew out there on a military plane and I had my first one on one meeting with Richard Nixon. It was really unnerving to me because now here's the President of the United States and I'm having my first one on one meeting. And they were after him for back taxes. He had no job. They wanted to disbar him in California. He had no income. They wanted to disbar him in New York. There were subpoenas floating all over the place. I had my law degree, of course, they had depended on that. They had no structure of a budget in San Clemente, and they wanted me to help put his financial life in order. And so I sat down with them, and I'm depressed because I'm 29 years old and I didn't know what the hell was going on with my life. And here he was. He had lost the most precious thing he ever wanted to achieve in his life. And I thought, what is this going to be like? I'm in San Clemente now, sitting one on one with him. And you know what he says to me? One of the first things he says, ken, don't get down. We have to look ahead. We can't look back. We have to look forward. And I thought, oh, my gosh, here I am. I'm feeling low and depressed and thinking my life is shattered because I'm going to probably lose my job at the White House. And everything he's lost is gone. He's lost his income. He has no job.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Was he a millionaire at the time? Was he a millionaire at the time?

[Ken Khachikian]

Oh, I don't think so, no. He had property, but they were trying to go after him on his property. He was going to have to get rid of his property because they felt that he had improperly used federal funds to build up his property in Florida.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And so this reminds me of somebody.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, that's right.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Except add a couple zeros. Yeah. It just reminds us.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah. No, no, no. Exactly. No, no. They were after him. They wanted to, but.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Sounds like they wanted to with him, though.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Do you think they were successful with trying to destroy Nixon?

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, not in the end, because he was so resilient. He was mentally resilient. And, you know, we can get into that because this is how he came back. We started that he was already planning his comeback mentally. He was. He was looking ahead. That's what is the whole point of that conversation was he was already looking forward and looking ahead. And in that, those dark recesses of his life. And at that moment, he was thinking ahead as, how am I going to rebuild my life? How am I going to come back?

[Patrick Bet-David]

So this is August 8th of 74. You're 29, he's 61. Okay. And he's losing the job that he always wanted to have. This was what he wanted to do for a long, long time. He wasn't shy about it. His dream was to be the President. And how much after he gets resigned on August 8, are you sitting face to face to face across from him?

[Ken Khachikian]

We're, this is 10 days later and I've got about an hour and a half meeting. I'm sure I have notes somewhere. And I'm sitting down with him saying, here's your financial situation, here's what our options are. Plus I'm trying to organize the staff of staff budget. We have certain monies that we can get. There's transition funds, and here's the staff we can organize. And it's at that point that he says he's been told by Ziggler how loyal I was. And he knew I was loyal and I worked on the anti impeachment. Then he says, look, I'm going to write a book, a memoir, and if that happens, I'd like you to come out here and work with me on my memoirs. And I said, I'd really love to do that.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And at that time, how are you getting paid?

[Ken Khachikian]

I'm still on the White House staff working for Jerry Ford. Got it. But 10 days later I return to the White House. Then I get fired.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Ten days later, August 18, you go back to the White House and you get fired.

[Ken Khachikian]

Roughly in that time.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Is it because they found out that you went and had a meeting with Nixon?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, of course.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Why? Because they were like, why are you meeting with Nixon? And you didn't tell us about it?

[Ken Khachikian]

No, no, no, no. They. No, no. They knew I was out there. But they, they were eventually going through the White House staff and deciding, well, now who on the White House staff.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Loyalist to him, they're getting rid of him?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, they got rid of Pat Buchanan. They got rid of me.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Who's they? Is they Ford? Yeah.

[Ken Khachikian]

Ford's people? Yeah. So they don't want us around.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Isn't Ford's people Nixon's people?

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, of course they have. Nixon appointed Ford.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That's what I'm saying. So when you're saying Ford's people are getting rid of Nixon's people, it's another way of saying Nixon's people who were against him revealed themselves by getting rid of the people that were fully loyal to Nixon. Yeah, that's a better way of saying it.

[Ken Khachikian]

We were baggage because they didn't want anybody around who supported the anti impeachment.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Was there friction between Ford and Nixon where Ford didn't like Nixon?

[Ken Khachikian]

I have no idea what went on between the two of them. I think there was afterwards there was a little bit of bad blood, unfortunately, from Nixon.

[Patrick Bet-David]

To Ford or Ford To Nixon.

[Ken Khachikian]

I think Ford to Nixon.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Ford to Nixon.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah. Because. Well, after the pardon, Ford took a lot of heat, and I think he felt like. I think Ford felt like he. He may have lost the presidency because of the pardon. Got it.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So he kind of blamed it on Nixon. You know, I was.

[Ken Khachikian]

Even though he got the presidency because of Nixon. Right. It's sort of a 50, 50 situation.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That makes sense. So going back to Nixon, so how many total hours would you say you've spent with Nixon? Just the two of you. Total hours.

[Ken Khachikian]

You mean in my lifetime?

[Patrick Bet-David]

In your lifetime. Oh, if you would have put a number to Thousands. Thousands of hours with them. Okay. What are the different situations you've spent the time with? Dinner, golfing, reading, vacation, business. What would you say? I mean, thousands is a lot of time.

[Ken Khachikian]

Thousands would be mostly in the office. We didn't. We didn't socialize. We didn't play golf together. We had dinners rarely. Maybe four or five times, six times. And that would have been traveling. When I went with him, I traveled with him to London and Paris in the post presidency, when he went, he had a speaking engagement in Paris and in London and he asked me to travel with him. I went with him. When his first grandchild was born, I accompanied him to New York and we had dinners, but we didn't socialize in that way. We spoke on the phone huge amounts of times in his post presidency to talk politics, to talk about what was going on with Reagan's presidency, Carter's presidency, what was happening in politics. But mostly it was during the time working on the memoirs and preparing the Frost Nixon interviews. There's always just hundreds and hundreds of hours accumulated over those years within situations like this.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Like this picture here. Yeah, we're looking at a lot like that.

[Ken Khachikian]

Exactly. So is he just like that?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Is he. Is he. Is it a conversation? Are you asking him questions? He's telling you? Are you writing for him many times where you're asking him, what do you think about this, Mr. President? What do you think about that? Where it's constant processing and asking him questions, or is he just having an open conversation with you?

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, now there we're probably talking about the book and what certain parts of the book. I was responsible for his campaigns throughout the book and responsible for the chapters on probably the Supreme Court appointments and all the various campaigns and so on those various chapters, I'd be going through the sequences of the research I was doing on the books. But then, because he would get bored with talking about the book and this was 1976, and you had the presidential primaries going between Reagan and ford in late 75 and then 76 throughout then you had the presidential campaign of 76. He would get bored working on the book and say, hey, you know, let's talk about the New Hampshire primary. Let's talk about the primary in Pennsylvania or the primary and some other state. Or he'd get digressing and talking about politics or he just loved just talking about what happened in the past or about personalities. You know, one time, I remember he talked about the 1960 campaign and for. Just right out of the blue, he said, you know, instead of putting Henry Cabot Lodge on the ticket, I should have put Thurston Morton. He was the senator from Kentucky. I should have put Thurston Morton on the ticket and I might have won. What a. What a rebel. What a revelation that was. Can you imagine that?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah.

[Ken Khachikian]

I'm giving you a piece of history.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That's crazy.

[Ken Khachikian]

That I didn't even put in my book. That's a real piece of history, I'm telling you.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Unbelievable. What was he like behind closed doors when you have a conversation with them?

[Ken Khachikian]

Oh, he's fascinating. I mean, when out of the blue somebody talks about Winston Churchill or something, somebody that Dwight Eisenhower said or that. Something that he learned from Willie Brandt or that he had a conversation with Willie Brown. Now, that was not always, but he loved talking about domestic politics or things about Jack Kennedy. He had stories about Jack Kennedy, but it was always. And I love talking politics.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What stories did he tell? Like, do you remember any stories he told you about Jack Kennedy that stuck till today?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, he was friends with Kennedy and he said, you know, we talked about Kennedy, talking about Kennedy's women. He said, you know, he said about Kennedy and women, he says, it's not women that'll do you in, it's drinking. He felt that it was drinking that would do politics, politicians in. Back in those days. Then he went through. I remember him going through a list of politicians that had. It wasn't this. I don't know, maybe this is a family. A family program. But the. Of politicians that may have had problems with women. But he said he. Back in those days that it's the drinking that got to him. So. But he.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Meaning, like, if you got. You drank too much, you fooled around.

[Ken Khachikian]

You were irresponsible, nor the drinking affected your judgment, is what he would say. Got it. A lot of smart politicians back in the 40s, 50s and 60s, he said that drinking affected their.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I thought he drank. No Was a Nixon a drinker or.

[Ken Khachikian]

He had a scotch at night and. But I never saw him when he was boozy. I never did that. Got it. I think those were a lot of mythologies.

[Patrick Bet-David]

But so let me. That's the stuff that we see on who we are told Nixon is versus your experience. How different is the misconceptions we have of Nixon versus you who have spent a few thousand hours with him.

[Ken Khachikian]

The big misconception is that about Nixon is that he's cold and unapproachable. That's what people always say about Nixon. Is that this notion that you said he's paranoid, that he's cold, he's unapproachable, you can't have a conversation with him. He's. He's not warm. He's every. Every politician. Just about every politician I know is. Is wary of strangers because they're not quite sure what. What's going to come of that relationship or contact, especially in this modern age when you can be recorded on an iPhone or whatever. But still, once you got your first contact with Nixon, he was more than approachable. The conversations flowed freely, especially if you started talking about something that he was comfortable with, about politics or baseball or his family. So I found him to be very, very approachable. We had the greatest conversations. I'm going to go back and just flashback just a minute about these conversations we had. It was about politics. This is where I learned about Reagan so much, is that discussions about the primaries in 76 is. He educated me about Reagan. And we would talk about Reagan and Ford, what Ford was doing wrong, what Reagan was doing right, and what Reagan was doing wrong. And he made political assessments. The guy was. I used to say about Nixon, when he wasn't involved with his own campaign, he could make excruciatingly bright strategic judgments. When politicians are trying to make judgments about their own campaigns, they lose their ability to not be balanced in how they make decisions. But when they're not involved with their own campaigns, they can be very open and neutral.

[Patrick Bet-David]

When you're spending time with them, who did you know? And by the way, I mean, there's two things when interviews like this has happened. Either you're only going to tell the good, which makes for a boring conversation. And the audience is going to walk away and we're going to lose them, okay? And they're going to say, oh, he's just going to say all the good, and we're not going to hear. I watched a documentary the other day. I was. I was falling asleep. I'm like, please give me something. Like, if they ever make a documentary about me, please don't make it just all good. Tell some of the horror stories, man. Like there. No one walks on water. There's got to be some that they're dealing with that, you know, people want to know. So, you know, when it comes down to Nixon, what were some, like, who was. Who were the people that really pissed him off? Who were the people that, you know, really agitated him or got under his skin or what were some air, like, you know, you read rumors about some of. Was he a womanizer? Did he like the girls? Was he good with the ladies, that the ladies like him? Was he a, you know, guy who would curse a lot behind closed, or was he a smoker? What was attractive about him? Was he a sports guy? What. What were some of those things about Nixon that wasn't, you know, coming from a standpoint of somebody that loves him, you're obviously a fan of his. And by the way, you know, many people, now that Nixon's no longer with us, say Nixon was one of the better presidents that we ever had. Nixon should have never resigned. Nixon should have never caved. Nixon should have stood up and, you know, took the, you know, things that were coming after him. There's a lot of people agree with a lot of good that he did for the economy, a lot of good that he did for the economy, but no one walks on water. What were some of those?

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, I actually talk about it in the. My book. During the Frost interviews, he was quick to anger. During the Frost interviews, when his staff let him down especially, he was very angry. There was a scene in there where he felt that we had not provided him the information. He got very upset with. He exploded in anger at Diane Sawyer when I. It was sort of unfair in a lot of ways. I think he was. I have to say, it was sort of. It was not childish, but it was explosive anger that he shouldn't have done because she had made an honest mistake and didn't provide him this information. And I said, you know, there was this piece of information that we had that could have helped you in the interview that you just did, and she didn't provide it. And then he just exploded all of a sudden, and he cursed. I'll say this about him. His cursing was. It was. Was moderate. He. He never used the. He never spoke. He never used foul words.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Really?

[Ken Khachikian]

No. He.

[Patrick Bet-David]

No F words?

[Ken Khachikian]

No.

[Patrick Bet-David]

B. Wars? No. No Stuff like that?

[Ken Khachikian]

No. Yes, But. But no.

[Patrick Bet-David]

F. Would he say he's such an Would he say stuff?

[Ken Khachikian]

No, he'd say that. But no. But no.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Get the F out of your mother.

[Ken Khachikian]

No, never that.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay.

[Ken Khachikian]

Never. Never heard him use F word.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Really?

[Ken Khachikian]

Ever, ever, ever. Wow. No, he would have been a bad rapper if he got into hip hop, you know, But. But he would, you know, say somebody's an. Or, you know, he doesn't give a. Or something like that. Yeah, but never. Never use the F word. Not once I've heard pastors use those words. That's not. Not a single time.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay.

[Ken Khachikian]

The entire time I knew him and.

[Patrick Bet-David]

But he had a temper, so he got upset at that. So you were there when I was.

[Ken Khachikian]

There, and I calmed him down. And, you know, he would look in front of those of us who were. I think he felt comfortable with. He would. He would rise to anger, and I understand that. I think you probably do that from time to time with your own staff.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Walk on water. I never lose my cool. I'm very calm, Rob, you know.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, there's people. There's people in the booth behind here howling. Now they're not laughing.

[Patrick Bet-David]

They're actually. They better not be laughing. I swear to God, if you're laughing, we're gonna have a prom. See, this is the part, though.

[Ken Khachikian]

This is the.

[Patrick Bet-David]

This is the part where people see that the person doesn't. What. You have the biggest shop in the world. You are the number one story around the world. You're getting fired. How many movies and, Rob, how many can you type in? How many movies and documentaries and books have been written about Nixon? I mean, if you were to talk about the number of times he's been referenced in a movie. I mean, this is. This is a powerful name, right? So you're under pressure. Some of the guys that you gave a job to have turned against you. They're causing you to lose your job. You're like. You would have never had a job without me. I chose you. I gave you this opportunity. Now you're flipping on me. These are. These are tough situations to be in. But that instance with Diane Sawyer and Nixon, what was the specific thing that.

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, she had. There was a piece of information that he could have used in the interview with.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That would have helped them.

[Ken Khachikian]

Would have helped with Frost.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah. And do you remember what it was? A horse.

[Ken Khachikian]

It had to do with the June 23 tape. That there was something his. Of the former deputy director of the CIA could have provided. And it's. Again, I describe it in the book that. That. Who had warned him that he didn't want the FBI to get a foul of CIA operations. And he thought that would have beneficial to him in the interview with Frost. And she had neglected to provide it. And I had remembered it. Now, look, she had done such a stupendous job in preparing him for those interviews.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Stupendous is a good word. And she had done a great job.

[Ken Khachikian]

Like 99% everything that she had done.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Some people, Armenia, listen to this. Their English may be their fourth language. I just want to say complimentary of Diane. So you're being complimentary.

[Ken Khachikian]

She had a work ethic better than just about anybody. And she had done so much and she had overlooked this one little thing. And I almost felt bad that I had brought this up.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Did it bother her when she was.

[Ken Khachikian]

Almost brought her to tears? Yes.

[Patrick Bet-David]

But it didn't.

[Ken Khachikian]

That it didn't. And he. And, but I have to say this. He calmed down right away.

[Patrick Bet-David]

If you're telling the story.

[Ken Khachikian]

If Diane's listening, it was an outburst.

[Patrick Bet-David]

If Diane's listened to this, would she remember this moment?

[Ken Khachikian]

She might have. I don't know. I gave her. I sent her a copy of the book and she may or may not have remembered.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You guys still talk or.

[Ken Khachikian]

No, we've talked a few months back, but we're not in constant communication.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And obviously, Diane, she's a private person.

[Ken Khachikian]

She's a private person.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Got it. She. She lived a pretty public life, going on tv, doing interviews. She did some of the biggest interviews of all time. If you type in the biggest interviews ever done, she's on the list of many of those interviews.

[Ken Khachikian]

That's a different. There's public persons and private persons, though. Public persons also have a private life.

[Patrick Bet-David]

For sure, but. For sure. But you're saying she didn't want her personal life to be out there. She kind of didn't want the fame. She was good at the job.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

When she was gone, she was gone.

[Ken Khachikian]

Exactly.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Got it. Okay. What else would Nixon. What else did you see where moments where, you know, something bothered him.

[Ken Khachikian]

He could be. Look, I think there's times when he could be say something snarky about another politician that maybe sounded petty, but I don't. I think that's. That's a quality that's not above anybody. It's. Or maybe would it would be gossipy. He was not above political gossip. Let's put it that way.

[Patrick Bet-David]

He was not.

[Ken Khachikian]

No.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Got it.

[Ken Khachikian]

So if you're talking about, you know, me trying to say, yes, he didn't walk on water, but that's not a horrible trait in my judgment. That's something people do all the time. But I can't give you anything. He didn't drink to excess in front of me. Was not a womanizer. He, it was a, he was a very generous man. He did good things with me.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Would he ever talk to you? Like, for example, would he ever sit there behind closed doors and you're an econom, not an economy background, but you had some stuff you did with Greenspan. So you have an economy where you're coming and saying, here's a budget, here's how much money we got. We got to deal with this. So you understand money. Well, would he say to you ever any questions behind closed door second guess and saying, you know what? You know, when I said we're going to this, this going off of gold standard is going to be temporary, I should have never done it. You know, when it came down to this, I should have never resigned. Did he ever tell you I should have never resigned. Did he ever say any of that stuff?

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, he did talk about he shouldn't have fired Haldeman and Ehrlichman, that's for sure. That he felt that. He mentioned that more than once, that he felt that was a bad decision that he made.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Why?

[Ken Khachikian]

Because it didn't, it didn't, it didn't change anything. He said that they were his, they were loyal to him, they were his. It was, he said it was like cutting off his right arm and his left arm and that, that he felt that that was a mistake that he made, that it didn't make any difference in. It didn't make any difference in his presidency. It didn't help him. It didn't help him out any. And it just, it just hurt them. And I think in the end probably worked to his disadvantage in a lot of ways. It turned Ehrlichman against him. It hurt Haldeman a lot, although Haldeman didn't turn against him. But I think he got nothing out of it is what he meant. And he's, he said that any number of times that.

[Patrick Bet-David]

But who's the one that turned against him? Not Halderman. Who turned against him.

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, Ehrlichman got, was in the end was bitter, more bitter about it.

[Patrick Bet-David]

But did, did either one of them, like come back and destroy him and become in any of him?

[Ken Khachikian]

No.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So why was he second guessing that decision there? Is it because he liked them and.

[Ken Khachikian]

No, because they, they were the most important people on his staff.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So why did he fire them Initially?

[Ken Khachikian]

Because there was a lot of pressure. Because there was all this pressure on them that the. The. At the time, the Washington Post and the. All the. They had been testifying for the Senate Watergate Committee and the grand jury was after them. There was a lot of public attention put on them that they had participated in the obstruction of justice. The Ehrlichman had participated in this plumbers operation and everything. And that they were at the center of a lot of the illegal. Allegedly at the center of a lot of the illegal activities in the White House. And that. So they were. They were anchors around Nixon's neck. And so there was. I can't remember who all was saying he was probably getting some internal advice that, look, these are. This is just negative to you, Mr. President. You've got to get rid of these two guys. And. Because it's just negative to your President.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So it was escape. He needed to fire somebody to say, it's like a football team's got a bad record. They fired a coach.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So it's like, let's fire these guys to make it seem like, well, it wasn't me, it was really them that did it.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah. And. And. And some that mess with them and it doesn't help. Yeah. So let's. Okay, so the. The baseball team's not doing any good, so you fire the general manager, and it doesn't make any difference. Right.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Instead, what should he have done when he tells you that and it goes down? And what does he say? Does he say, I should have done this? I should have done.

[Ken Khachikian]

I should have kept him, is what he said. Because he leaned on them so much. He leaned on their advice. Bob Haldeman was the guy he talked to. The first guy talked to in the morning, the last guy he talked to at night.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Oh, wow.

[Ken Khachikian]

And so these guys are very big.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Influential people in his administration.

[Ken Khachikian]

Oh, yeah. No, no. They were the two key guys that he. I mean, that he talked to all the time.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What did they end up doing afterwards? What. What big job did they have after Nixon? Did they ever have another? Nobody.

[Ken Khachikian]

Both of them went to prison, and then they both wrote books and. I can't remember.

[Patrick Bet-David]

They both went to prison.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

How long did they. Do you remember how long they did a good amount.

[Ken Khachikian]

It was, I think, several months. I mean, they were not. It wasn't years and years. I can't remember.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So Nixon took responsibility for this happening with these guys. He felt like it was his fault that they went to jail.

[Ken Khachikian]

I think it was. He felt it was his fault that they. I think they. He felt they got a bad rap and I Think a lot of them got bad raps. That's a whole different story. That.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So did they ever have another job, Rob? They went to what? He was found guilty and in prison for 18 months, long term release. He returned to private life on a successful business.

[Ken Khachikian]

Had another.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Is that Halderman or.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, he had another job afterwards.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So he came back and went in business. He wasn't fine when he died from cancer at 60 something.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

How about.

[Ken Khachikian]

Ehrlichman wrote books and. I don't know if he had a real job. He wrote books.

[Patrick Bet-David]

He was also in jail for a year and a half. By the way, did you ever see them after the Watergate scandal? Were you ever there where they reunited afterwards or.

[Ken Khachikian]

I saw Haldeman.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You saw Halderman? Yeah, him and Nixon were together afterwards.

[Ken Khachikian]

I just saw Haldeman.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And how was.

[Ken Khachikian]

Personally one on one.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I'm sorry. Got it. But never with Nixon. They never reunited with.

[Ken Khachikian]

No, they did. They did reunite, but I wasn't with them.

[Patrick Bet-David]

All three of them.

[Ken Khachikian]

No, I. I don't think he ever saw Erman again.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Is it because Ehrlichman was like done.

[Ken Khachikian]

As far as I know.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay. And when you met with Halderman, how was he? Was he. What did he tell.

[Ken Khachikian]

It was a very interesting meeting. Haldeman. We were all terrified of Haldeman in the White House.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Why?

[Ken Khachikian]

He was a very. Because he was a very. They called him sweet old Bob because it was. Because it was the initials for S.O.B.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So he was a tough guy because.

[Ken Khachikian]

He was very stern, very. He had very strict rules and he wasn't. Had a very stern demeanor and personality and he wasn't very, you know, he ran things all by the rule book. So I never had. I had one conversation with him the entire time I was in the White House. And I knew he was going to call me to get a piece of information. And I was scared. I was frightened that. I was nervous that he was going to call me for this piece of information that I would screw up and I'd get in trouble. And even though it was just a simple. He was going to call me to ask me how the press treated some piece of information. So people were.

[Patrick Bet-David]

He had a reputation.

[Ken Khachikian]

Reputation.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What caused the reputation, though? Blow ups or.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, just don't screw up around Haldeman. You get in trouble. Got it. He's just a tough guy. He's. He ran a tight ship. And even those people who work for him knew that he was stern and ran a real tight ship. So anyway. So Bob was just.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Was Was he Nixon's number one general?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, yeah, he was the chief of staff.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay, and then how about Erlkman? What role did he play?

[Ken Khachikian]

He was head of domestic. Head of domestic council. He was the head of domestic affairs, but he was. He was the lead. He and Haldeman went to school together, and Haldeman brought him into the campaign to run the advance operation. But then Ehrlichman ran the whole domestic affairs operation. So he ran all the domestic. So he oversaw the entire domestic council and all the domestic legislation and everything else.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So Ehrlichman was not as feared as Haldeman was.

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, he didn't have the. He didn't have the same role as Haldeman in terms of running staffing or anything else.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Got it.

[Ken Khachikian]

But they were. The two of them were known as, quote, the Germans.

[Patrick Bet-David]

The Germans. Were they German?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, Ehrlichman. Haldeman.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Right. So they were Germans, but born here, obviously.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay. So UCLA alumni and. Interesting. So how about Ford? Did he have a relationship with Ford? Would he talk about Ford or. They were not that close.

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, they were close. They came into Congress, I think Ford came into the Congress, I think, in 48, and Nixon came in 46. And they were colleagues throughout the years in Congress. And they were always, you know, close friends and colleagues throughout all those years. They weren't. I don't think they were pals, real close pals, but they were friends. I mean, they didn't. So I don't know that they socialized together that much. But he wouldn't have chosen him as vice president if he didn't have trust in him or feel that he was, you know, can be safe around him or anything else.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Did he trust Reagan? Was he. Was he a fan of Reagan?

[Ken Khachikian]

Oh, yeah, very much so. Well, once he got elected, he was. He was wary of Reagan in 68 because he viewed Reagan as a. As a potential challenger. So once he got elected president and Reagan was not a political threat to him. Yes, but as long as. As long as Reagan was a political threat to him, that was a different story.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Were you having a room with the three of them?

[Ken Khachikian]

Oh, yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

How was that when the COVID of the book. How was that when you guys were together?

[Ken Khachikian]

Oh, that was a. That's the last chapter of the book. It's an amazing story. It's. I call it the Lions Gather, and it was fantastic.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Didn't you have a nickname? The Lions, they called you. What was your nickname?

[Ken Khachikian]

Oh, no, my Anoda.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah, I read another nickname for you that said. What was the other nickname I read for you, there was another nickname I saw that you had. Let me see if I can find this or not. But they had a nickname for you. Maybe you don't know this nickname. You're going to find out about it years later. Oh, who knows? I saw nicknames. I'll find out. I'll tell you what the nickname I saw. Oh. The line of California elections 88 is registered. Regarded as a line of California GOP politics. Yeah. So how many?

[Ken Khachikian]

I had a lot of nicknames. People who work for me probably gave them to me.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah. One of the best decisions I ever made in my life was joining the US US army when I served the 101st Airborne Division Air assault. The level of pride of America, being the greatest country in the world went to the roof. If you are a veteran or if you support veterans, you have family members. Veterans Day we have brand spanking new gear for you to choose from. A whole plethora of options of what to choose from with shirts that say we support armed veterans. I am an armed veteran. Dog tags, shirts, hats, all of the different gears that we have. And for the first 250 people that place an order, you have the option of 12 to 15 brand spanking new mugs that we have. One says Angry Patriot, another one says Biz Doc. Another one has got the US Flag, another one has Peabody podcast or valuetainment in it or a Future looks bright. Go to VT merch.com Place your order for Veterans Day. These things are going to go very quickly and you'll get a custom mug that will be sent your way. Move your career further, faster. In just two days with a Harvard professional and executive development program. Advance your leadership skills, craft smarter business strategies, build your network and transform how you work and think to keep your career moving forward. You'll earn a certificate and can add Harvard to your resume with Harvard Professional and Executive Development. Learn more at professional dce Harvard Edu. Spotify. How often were you with the three of them together with Nixon and.

[Ken Khachikian]

Oh, just that one time.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay, got it.

[Ken Khachikian]

And it was, that's, it was such a fascinating meeting. That's why it's the last chapter of my book.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What is this picture? What's this moment here?

[Ken Khachikian]

That's, that's the end of the meeting. And it was at the, it was two days before we opened the Nixon Library. I was, I oversaw the opening of the Nixon Library in 1990. We opened the library on July 9th.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You're very good looking, man.

[Ken Khachikian]

Look at that picture right there.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That Smile. You look like Hollywood lawyer. Look at that. Big time.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, well, somebody said they'd never see me so happy. I don't know.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So after, after you working with Nixon, was your relationship with Nixon what helped you get President Reagan to make you the chief speech writer? Yes, yes, that's obviously signed that Reagan trusted Nixon to call and say, who do you recommend? And Nixon made the recommendation, I would.

[Ken Khachikian]

Assume it was not directly. Not directly to Reagan. It was indirectly.

[Patrick Bet-David]

How did, what do you mean indirectly?

[Ken Khachikian]

When Nixon finished the memoirs and was basically had gotten. The purpose of the memoirs and the Frost interviews was to get Watergate behind him, to reinvent his life, to restructure, to get his. To get his financial house in order. He got paid a lot of money for his memoirs and the frosty interviews. And then by that time he didn't. He didn't need a staff like he did for the memoirs or anything else. Plus, he was bored living in San Clemente because the people had a hard time coming out to see him. So that's when he wanted to move to New York. 19, late 79, early 80. So I was going to be out of a job, so I. He kept me on. Nixon kept me on in 79, throughout this as a consultant part time. And then I started looking for work. And then I had friends in the Reagan campaign that he started up for president in late 79. These are old pals that actually had also had worked for Nixon previously. And so I had some consulting arrangement with them as well. Nixon said, I'm going to. Then he announced to me, I'm moving to New York because I got to be where the action is. And he said about this time, he said, I'm going to introduce you to Stu Spencer, Stuart Spencer. Stu Spencer ran Reagan's gubernatorial campaigns in 1966 and was his political advisor for all those years. The Spencer Roberts, Spencer Roberts organization. So Stu Spencer was previously Reagan's campaign managers, and Stu Spencer was somebody that Nixon knew from political campaigns.

[Patrick Bet-David]

He managed Nelson Rockefeller's campaign in 64.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, yeah. And, but, but Stu Spencer had also run Jerry ford's campaign in 1976. So even though he had run Reagan's campaigns previously, he was no longer on Nancy Reagan's Christmas card list. So he was. But he had an office in Newport beach and had a lot of political contacts. And so Nixon said, go, go sit down with Stu Spencer and see what. See if he's got any work for you. So I met with Stu in 19, in 1979. And Stu said, well, why is Dick Nixon sending you to see me? And I said, well, he said, you had a lot of contacts. So I started meeting with Stu, and I had actually did a little help with him writing some stuff. I write about this in the book. And so Stu and I stayed in touch. And in 1980, Reagan's campaign started getting into trouble in August and September. It wasn't doing well. And Nancy and Ron Reagan said, we've got to do something to get things in order. Especially Nancy did, because she was sort of the boss. And she said, you know what? Even though we unhappy with Stu, we got to get Stu back. And so they called Stu up, and Stu said, okay, if you're going to get me back. Even though we've had all these problems with each other in the past, the problem with your campaign is you're trying to run it from the headquarters. If I'm going to be in this campaign, I'm going to run it from the plane. You can't run it from the headquarters. And if I'm going to run it from the plane, I have to make. I have to. I get to choose the policy person, the press person, the person who runs the campaign tour. Then I get to have a speechwriter with me. And that person turned out to be me. So Stu Spencer, this interesting guy, by the way. Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

He's 97 years old. Last time he voted for a Democratic president was in 1947. 48. Truman. And in 2020, he voted for Biden over Trump.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah. He doesn't like Trump.

[Patrick Bet-David]

No. He's not a fan of Trump.

[Ken Khachikian]

No.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So, okay, so you get into the Reagan family. You're. You're now his chief.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah. I had been begging to get involved in the Reagan campaign for months and months and months, and they were. They were not letting me get the job I wanted, by the way.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Did they give you a reason why? Was it because.

[Ken Khachikian]

Oh, they said, we don't have the money, we're having trouble with our budget, you know, blah, blah, blah. They were giving me.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What was your first meeting with them? When's the first time you met him?

[Ken Khachikian]

First time I met. Well, first time I met him was at UC Santa Barbara. Again, I was student body president, and I introduced him. I got him to speak to the campus, and I. That was one of my jobs. I got to introduce whoever spoke to the campus.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And who was he then, the governor?

[Ken Khachikian]

He was. No, he's running for governor.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And this is 63.

[Ken Khachikian]

66.

[Patrick Bet-David]

66. And was UC Santa Barbara a party city party school back then or not really.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, well, yeah, it was a party school, but I was married, so.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I mean, UC Santa Barbara had a reputation when I was in my early 20s, late teens.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Great bookstores.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Long bookstores. Doesn't matter what you wanted, everybody you wanted was there. There was something in the water. I don't know what it was.

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, okay. I'm going to start interviewing you now.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Well, I will plead a fifth is what I will do if we go through that.

[Ken Khachikian]

So I, I introduced Reagan at the, at to, to the student body back in 66. That's the first time I met him. So. But that, that was. We, we had no conversation with each other other than. I talked to him on the stage for two minutes. But.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Pleasant guy?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, he's genial. Always genial. But then I briefed him. I did have a consulting arrangement with them in, early, in 1980. I briefed them on issues along with several other people, but then I lost all contact with them because they had all these, the BS issues with their budget and this, that and the other. So I didn't get hired until there was five and a half weeks left in the campaign when Stu Spencer says I get to choose the speechwriter. That's how I got involved.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So now you're in.

[Ken Khachikian]

Now I'm in Speech.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Right.

[Ken Khachikian]

I'm on the airplane.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You're on the airplane with him.

[Ken Khachikian]

Critical. Tell me that's critical because that's where the, that's where the campaign is being run.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Right. The day to day on Air Force One.

[Ken Khachikian]

No, no, it's not. No, this is, this is. He's a candidate. He's a governor.

[Patrick Bet-David]

He's a governor. You're on the plane with him or.

[Ken Khachikian]

I mean, we called him governor, he's ex governor.

[Patrick Bet-David]

But how many, how many hours did you spend with him versus Nixon? Was it more Nixon than Reagan?

[Ken Khachikian]

Oh, I, One on one. I spent probably in the aggregate more hours with Nixon because I worked on his book with him.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Got it.

[Ken Khachikian]

But I did spend a lot of time with Reagan. Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

With Reagan. Was, was, was I maybe, I think, was Nancy more present when you're talking to Reagan than Pat being present when.

[Ken Khachikian]

You'Re talking to him?

[Patrick Bet-David]

I can see that.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yes. Yes.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Did she, was, did she give you vibes of a control freak or somebody that was just protective of her husband?

[Ken Khachikian]

Both.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Give me examples of control freak.

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, this is, this is why people need to read my book. I called her the chief of staff when she joined the campaign, which is a positive thing because he trusted her. He, he trusted Nobody more than he trusted Nancy Reagan. He called her Mommy. And she. When she didn't. When I first joined the campaign, she wasn't on the plane. She was still in Los Angeles. And then she joined us a week later and things were wobbly, wobbly, wobbly. But then she came on the plane and it steadied him because he always. He just needed her by his side and. But there was, like, an occasion I describe on the. In the book where, for example, I was under great pressure to get this speech to him. We're on our way to Lima, Lima. Lima, Ohio. And it was a Lima or Lima. I can't remember how they pronounced it. No. And we were doing a speech and we're 45 minutes away and we're under pressure, and the plane's on final approach and we're trying to get the speech, and I'm under pressure, trying to type it in the back and we have to write it, but on the half sheets to get to him. And she walks back to me and she says, ken, where's the speech? Ma'am, I'm working on it. We're trying to get it done. Where's the speech? I'm almost done. She says, ronnie is looking for the speech. So you get the. Get the feeling now.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Urgency. Let's go. Where is it at? I need it.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, he needs it right away. And I get it. Rip it out of the typewriter. The secretaries have to type it up. They have to put it on half sheets. Get it up to him. Take it up to him. So that's her role as being a control freak and being, like, in charge all at one time.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Was this a she thing or was this him, like, you know, certain cos are afraid of firing people.

[Ken Khachikian]

That's him being. Telling. Asking her to do it.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Oh, got it. So it's. It's she, it's he.

[Ken Khachikian]

He can't be confrontational.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I got it. So he. So he was a guy that would. Would avoid conflict. If he needed to fire somebody, he couldn't do it. Nancy, can he fire?

[Ken Khachikian]

Exactly.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Interesting. So it's not her doing, taking the initiative. He was relying on her and delegating to do. To. To do the tough job.

[Ken Khachikian]

Several times.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Wow.

[Ken Khachikian]

Oh, yeah, wow.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Do you ever have a moment where President Reagan gave you direct criticism one on one?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yes.

[Patrick Bet-David]

When was that?

[Ken Khachikian]

Once it was. It's a famous moment in. In the book. And that. It's a. It's. It's a very. Makes a big, very big difference in policy. And that's when it's prior to the first Geneva summit with Gorbachev. And he brought me in, I was back in California. But he's going to prepare a speech before the General assembly to the United nations in the fall of 1985. And I get called in. I think the speech is in October of 1985, September, October of 1985. And the basic speech is written by his speechwriting staff. And I get called in because they want me to shape it up and put it in his words and make sure it's edited properly. So I get called in from California and I have two meetings with him and I'm assuming it's the initial speech is written by Ben Elliot, head of the current speech writing staff. And it's pretty tough anti communist speech. And I'm assuming he still wants it to be a pretty tough anti communist speech because this is Ronald Reagan. So I edit the speech and work it out and I make it the tone just pretty much the way it's supposed to be and I finalize it, get the final edits in, have my secretary ship it into him the night before and then we have a meeting. I don't think you have, I don't know if you have the picture of it. It's a picture of us sitting around in the Oval Office. I'm sitting right next to him in the Oval Office and there are several of us in the meeting. It's in the Oval. Anyway, there's me next to him and there's Pat Buchanan, Don Regan, John poindexter and Bud McFarland. And so I sit down, I think I'm going to get a pat on the back for doing a nice speech for Reagan. First thing he does is he says, well, Ken, if we're going to have a different relationship with Gorbachev, we can't be using this harsh rhetoric regarding the Soviet Union. And I go, whoa, where'd this come from? All of a sudden Reagan's going soft on communism and I'm getting spanked in front of all these other guys. And it's really, you know, I mean, my feelings are getting hurt and I think I'm getting sabotaged by somebody in the White House. And then he starts going on and on about he doesn't like the language, it's too tough, and it just doesn't sound like him at all. And so he wants it changed. This is. The meeting is around 10 o'clock or whatever it is somewhere around there. I've got a flight going back to California at five. So now I've got Just about four hours to re edit this whole speech and change the language. And all this time I thought I'm being sabotaged. Well, it turns out that this is a whole change in philosophy that he wants a different approach.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Strategy. Yeah, different strategy.

[Ken Khachikian]

Strategy. Approach to Gorbachev before the summit. Now I write a whole chapter on this because I found out years later, talking to Bud McFarland, that the influence on him was from Lady Thatcher who told him he needs to have a different view towards Gorbachev. And then Nancy. Mrs. Reagan wanted him to soften up. Anyway, that's when I got. That's a long way of telling you that. You asked me if I ever got negative vibes from him. That's when I got.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Aside from that.

[Ken Khachikian]

No, aside from that.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You ever saw him lose a school?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yes, not, not badly, but just. He was angry. He got angry about. In private when he felt that he was, this is again towards the end of his administration and complained about not, not, not angry in the sense of his voice rising or anything else, but he was angry about how he got taken by his staff on raising taxes in 1982. That still. That bothered him.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Really?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Why?

[Ken Khachikian]

Because he was lied to by his staff. Staff manipulated him.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Who, when you say staff, is there a name or two?

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, there are several of them. Richard Dharma and Jim Baker. Jim Baker, David Gergen, they all, they all work together and they lie to David Stockman. Well, they, they manipulated him in ways that they wanted him to go, let's put it that way. Would you say I write about it so I don't. It's not like I'm telling you something.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Would you say Jim Baker? James Baker. I read his book. Phenomenal story of who he was. Tough guy. What was your impression of Jim Baker when you around him?

[Ken Khachikian]

He was. He's a very pleasant guy. He's very affable and always, basically, I always got along with him and very charming, you know, comes from Texas. He has that Texas charm. But it can be very tough. But we had.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Was he an sob? Was he a qualified sob?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, he could be. We crossed swords later on in the 84 campaign, but then we, you know, basically I think he decided that he and I would be. We're better off not getting in pissing match with each other. But I think at the end of the day he preferred not to have to do battle with me. But it's clearly we had different views of where Reagan should go. And he wanted Reagan to be much more. Had a softer view of America than I did. I Want to take that. He wanted Reagan to be less Ronald Reagan than Ronald Reagan was, let's put it that way.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Jim Baker, some people say he was. He was the first Dick Cheney before there was a Dick Cheney. Would you agree with that?

[Ken Khachikian]

I don't know what that means.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Meaning he. You know how they say Dick Cheney was the guy that was making a lot of decisions behind closed doors with Bush and Jim Baker was the one that ran the show, or. No?

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, there's a lot to do with that, but I think, yes, I would say that, but not in a positive way.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Not in a positive way.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah. Because again, as I write about it in the book, especially on domestic policy issues, he did things. It's not just him. He brought in people that worked against Reagan's interests. And I write about it in the book, and it's important that people read about it. It's that. And Reagan talks about decisions that were made that were not in Reagan's interest. Now, Reagan doesn't name names because he didn't realize what was going on. And it's just that I found information in the archives, and when I researched the book, I found more and more information that led me to find factual reasons to believe that Reagan was, you know, he was taken to the woodshed on these things.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Did you ever read the book the man who Ran Washington?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, I did.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What you think about it?

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, I thought it was a fluff job on Jim Baker. He embellished his. A lot of it was good in the sense that it exposed a lot of things about him, and a lot of it was a fluff job.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Was. Was Baker more a Bush guy or Reagan guy?

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, he. He was more. Look, he was. He was. He was. He did his job. He did mostly what he was. He was a. He was a. He was a Reagan guy in the sense that if he was required to do something that Reagan really wanted to do, he did it. But if he could get away with doing something that he believed that Reagan should do, even if Reagan did not want to do it, and he could get away with Reagan doing it, he would do it. And that was like the tax package in 82, raising taxes. They all thought that was in Reagan's interest, and they convinced it was in Reagan's interest. And Reagan called it one of the worst mistakes of his presidency. And he told me that twice behind closed doors.

[Patrick Bet-David]

How did Reagan feel about Bush?

[Ken Khachikian]

He liked him.

[Patrick Bet-David]

He liked him.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yes, he did.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Did he trust him? Yes, he trusted him.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yes.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Senior?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yes, he liked Bush and he. He felt Bush was a good vice president. He trusted him and liked him.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Did you. Did you ever.

[Ken Khachikian]

I didn't know any different.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Did you ever read the story about Bush Senior and his son Neil meeting with Hinckley's brother coming down to dinner a day before the shooting? The same day as shooting, and that guy canceled?

[Ken Khachikian]

No.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You never heard of that? Trying to see what. Rob, can you play the clip? I think Tripoli talks about that. No, not that one. I. I texted it to you, and there was an article written about this. I mean, if you're saying no, that means he never brought it up. It's. You follow Joe Rogan. You know who Joe Rogan is?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah. No. Yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Rob, I texted to you, so if you just look at your text, you'll find it. I text it to you right before us getting into it. It's a clip that just came out, I want to say last week. I don't know if you have it, Rob, or not. I don't have it. Okay, so there is a clip of. Let me find this thing for you. Hang on one second. Is this it?

[Ken Khachikian]

No.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah, it's on Twitter. If you go on Twitter, you should be able to find it. Let me see here. Let me see here. It's very interesting. And then I went and looked at. I'm like, is there really any credibility behind this? And then you see some of the stories about. So funny. Rob, I literally watch this before we went live. So your impression is they were good? There was no issues there?

[Ken Khachikian]

No, no, no. I. And I have high regard for Bush himself. It's just that when he brought Baker in. See, Baker brought in people to work for him that didn't have Reagan's interests in their heart. They felt like they were independent. I mean, again, you have to read my book, the Sky. Darman was. Was a terrible influence, and Baker gave him a free hand, and it was. It was just destructive to Reagan's domestic presidency, in my judgment. And it's. It's a story that needs to be told. And he was an abrasive personality. Baker or the guy brought in Darman and. And. And. And Darman admits. Admitted in private conversations with reporters that he didn't want. Public until I found them, that he wanted to change that he came to the White House to change Reagan's economic program. Now, he had no business doing that. He had absolutely. No. You don't come to the white. You don't come to work for the president to change his economic program. Do you want somebody to come to your organization and secretly Try to change what you're doing that's wrong, they can't come to work for.

[Patrick Bet-David]

But how do you not catch that? How do you as the President, not catch that?

[Ken Khachikian]

Because you're trusting your Chief of staff.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Now, when you, but you still get criticized for the person you hired. That's. I've made a lot of bad hires. How did Reagan hire somebody that he didn't trust, like Baker? Did he have a relationship with Baker? Or was, was Baker. Would he, would Baker be somebody that was part of the swamp?

[Ken Khachikian]

That's, that's, that's a good question. That's Baker. Baker's working, he's working the press all the time. And, and Reagan's a really trusting man and he's assuming that they're trust that the staff's doing the best thing for him. And plus, at the end of the day, they, they convinced him he was doing the right thing. Look, Reagan called me in December of 1981 to consult on his 82 State of the Union address, and he gives me this long lecture about how Lady Thatcher screwed up by raising taxes in Britain, how she. By changing her mind, by reneging on her plan that she had cut taxes by raising taxes. Well, he gave me this long economic lecture about what a stupid mistake she made. She should have never done that. And I thought, boy, good for him. He's sticking by his guns. He's not going to raise taxes this next year. And then he signs on to this Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act, TEFRA in 1982. Now, once he does that, he's going to sign onto this bill. He starts calling in, he calls in Marty Anderson, and he calls in Lyn Nofziger, and he calls me in and he calls us all in in order to tell us, I don't want you guys arguing against me on this out in public because I'm changing my mind. Obviously, they've convinced them that he's not actually raising taxes. Mr. President, you're not. These are only excise taxes. They aren't real tax increases because they aren't income taxes. And then they convince them that we're going to get $3 in budget cuts for every dollar of excise tax you raise. And then in 1988, when we're working on the. His speech, farewell speech to the Republican Convention, he does, he's pounding on his damn desk to me, he says, the fellows misled me. He says, damn it. He says, they promised me $3 in budget cuts for every dollar of tax increase instead. For every dollar of tax increase, I got $1.70, or excuse me, for every. I got $1.70 in revenue, and I got $1.70 of tax increases. For every dollar in budget cuts, I got just the opposite. And he felt that he got screwed and I got lied to.

[Patrick Bet-David]

As part of his legacy, though, he raised taxes. A lot of people say that, and it's unfortunate because it stays. And years later, they're like, you say, reagan's such a great president, he raised taxes. Right. You know, if I was the president, I would do it. I don't know how you. I would have a. Because when I do calls, I have lawyers who hold lawyers accountable. I don't know if that makes sense. So let's just say this. Lawyers are writing a contract form. You're looking at an agreement, and he'll send me to red notes and all this other stuff. Then I'll go to this lawyer and say, do you think this lawyer is doing a good job doing this? And he holds him. He's like, no, he missed this one part. Then I'll go to this law and I'll say, how about this one? Oh, I missed that one. I fix it. So sometimes you need, like if you get accountants that are doing numbers, financing taxes, you almost have another team over here that no one knows about, a shadow team that holds these guys accountable. Or else sometimes you're not going to know everything about every law, about every irs, about every code, about every cpa, every account. But if you can do that, that allows you to hold people account. This is the clip I was sharing with you that happened two weeks ago. This is literally the same day when Trump's interview dropped. This was dropped 6, 7, 8 hours prior to that interview. Rob, if you can play this clip. The gentleman that he's having on right there is a comedian talking to Rogan. Both of them are very good. He's very funny. But here's what he had to say. Go ahead, Rob. One of the things I wanted to talk to you about, I wanted to play this, but we decided we shouldn't play it. We don't want anybody to have any sort of a way to get it down. The episode of you when you're on the View. Make this one of the things I wanted to talk about. That's not the one.

[Ken Khachikian]

There it is.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay, go ahead, Rob. Is related to Obama and Bush. The Bushes had dinner with the Hinkleys the night before Reagan got shot. What?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Is that crazy, do you think? Okay. I always thought Hinckley was a lone nut. That was infatuated with Jody Foster.

[Ken Khachikian]

I had the delusion back in 1981 that by shooting the president, I can impress Jody Foster. Which me saying that now, it's. It's. It's ridiculous.

[Patrick Bet-David]

But that's what I believe back then. There's actually interviews, dude, where he said, uncle George told me to do it. Oh, Jesus.

[Ken Khachikian]

Okay.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Didn't they just let him out? Yeah, and now he's doing like plain and coffee beans because he's put out an album or something like that. So, by the way, so I go out. Rob, pull up the story that we saw. Bizarre connection between John Hinckley Jr. And the Bush from. Can we give credit to whoever wrote this? Was it called. It's called grunch.com. you ever heard of those guys, Rob, before? No. Okay, go. Go a little lower to see who it is. And by the way, the story, matter of fact, this is the better way to do it. This was written on New York Times many, many years ago. So if you go more than $50 Mazda at the moment, Washington, D.C. raising. So witnessing. What's his arm called? Little Low, Rob. At the bottom, it talks about the Bush connection. Go lower, go lower, go lower. If you type in Neil, why don't you just type in control F Neil there to. Scott Hinckley had met with Neil Bush earlier that you're at a party and became friendly with the fourth child of George W. Bush. According to Garnett news services, after news of assassination 10 broke, Neil Bush canceled the dinner. In the shooting aftermath, the media swarmed the Bush family on their connection to the Hinckleys. The fact that they had a dinner schedule with, you know, Scott Hinckley, and obviously Scott Hinckley, his brother is the one that tried to shoot him. You've never heard of this story?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Rob, can you go to John Hinckley's. Go to John Hinckley's.

[Ken Khachikian]

Who was the dinner. Was the dinner with President Neil Bush.

[Patrick Bet-David]

President Bush's fourth son. Okay, so if you can. There you go. Zoom in a little bit, Rob, right there so I can read it right there. It says New York Times. The eldest hinckley child, Scott, 30, the vice president of his father's company and friend, Neil Bush, the son of the president Scott Hinckley and a date had been invited to have dinner with the young Bushes home last night. But the dinner was canceled after the shooting. And that's New York Times, by the way, which is kind of weird. Like you've never heard of this before. Wow. What do you Think about this. Do you give any of this. Any credence? Or it's like, nah, just. This is.

[Ken Khachikian]

So what if they did. What if they did have dinner?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Well, you know how Lyndon Johnson became a president, and the one story that no president ever wants to leak is how John F. Kennedy got assassinated. I interviewed a guy named Jim Jenkins, who was one of the four men right after John F. Kennedy died that held his brain. Held his. And these were the four military folks who held his brain. And they said, look, he said, you know, he left the life. And he said somebody had messed with it before it came to us. And I said, what do you mean? So somebody had messed with it before it came to us. And I went through the rabbit hole. I interviewed another man who worked on that day, and I interviewed a bunch of different guys. I went through the whole thing. And a lot of people point to Lyndon Johnson being behind what happened to Kennedy and the reason why it goes to Lyndon Johnson. I see it was a Texas guy. So in this case, the fastest way to become a president is God forbid something happens to the President. You're the President, right? If the VP Becomes a president, you know, so why would you meet with the brother whose brother tried to kill the President?

[Ken Khachikian]

Now, I see where you're going. I. It's just that if you knew George. If you knew George H.W. bush, he was such a gentleman and. And such a. That would not. It would be so beyond the pale for him. Now, I don't know about his kids, but that would be something beyond anything he would ever.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What was he like when you were around him?

[Ken Khachikian]

He was. He was such a nice. Look, I first connected with George H.W. bush when I was in the. In the Nixon White House and he was head of the Republican National Committee. This was an interesting story. And I had to write speeches for people to support President Nixon against impeachment and Watergate issues. And so Bush was Republican National Committee. And so I had to write a speech for him defending Richard Nixon. So I wrote this tough speech for Bush. And so he went out kicking somebody, you know, kicking butt and everything else. And he called me afterwards. So this is in 1974. I'm guessing it had to be late 73 or somewhere in 74, when he was head of the Republican National Committee. And he had the courtesy to call me at the White House, and I was a deputy special assistant president, just a small fry, and to thank me for writing that speech. And people almost never did that. And he thanked me. It was a courtesy call. And he said, ken, I just want to thank you for helping me with that speech. And he said, you know, that's. That's tough duty out there. I'm just. And he was carrying the water for Nixon and, and. And he didn't want to. It was because that was a tough job for him to do. But he was head of the Republican National Committee, and he know he had to do it because he's loyal to President Nixon. And so I'm just saying that's the kind of guy he was. And every contact that I had with him when he was vice president, when he was a candidate for. And when. And when I saw him as president, he was just always the nicest gentleman I've ever known. I can't say anything else about him.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah, I had. I had a moment.

[Ken Khachikian]

I have different views about his other family, who.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Jeb or W. Oh, really? Did you ever interaction with him?

[Ken Khachikian]

Just indirectly. But I mean, I just wish that he was more active on behalf of his party, that's all.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You mean today?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And you know, when you say that, are you yourself, because you've spent time with Nixon, with Reagan, what a lot of different. I think you even helped write, if I'm not mistaken, for. You were an advisor to McCain's camp.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You were an advisor to a couple other people. Right. If I'm not mistaken, McCain, Dole, McCain, Dole, some of these other guys you've been around. So are you someone that's supportive of President Trump right now going against Kamala?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So you're not. The Bushes are not fans of Trump. They haven't been since he made the comments that he made. He's not somebody that is liked by the Bushes. And the way he went after Jeb, that's like the last time you heard anything good from Bushes towards Trump.

[Ken Khachikian]

Look, President George W. Bush doesn't have to like Trump. He doesn't have to campaign for him. But there are hundreds of other Republicans he could be out there helping.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Interesting.

[Ken Khachikian]

And he doesn't. He isn't out there doing it.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And why do you think that is?

[Ken Khachikian]

I have no idea, but I would. I wish he. He's got the ability to raise a lot of money and he's a former president of the United States. And I think.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Do you have any reasons why you think he does?

[Ken Khachikian]

Everybody has no speculations. I think probably the reason is that he'll be asked about President Trump. And I think there's ways to do that without by, you know, you don't have to answer that question just Saying, look, I'm out here to help, I'm out here to help Ken Calvert get elected Congress in, in Riverside County.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Is that part of his duty? You think like when he ran, did other previous presidents help him out? I wonder, can you pull up?

[Ken Khachikian]

Which I. Here's what I'll say is that President George W. Bush got elected because Republicans all over the country helped him. And everything good that happened to him was happened because Republicans all over the country, no matter how they felt about his politics, helped him. And I go back to Richard Nixon in 19. Throughout his career, he campaigned for Republicans, whether liberal, moderate, conservative, left wing, right wing, whatever. He campaigned for Jacob Javits, who was a liberal Republican. He campaigned for Barry Goldwater, who was a right wing Republican. He campaigned for Republicans all over the country. And so if you're part of the party and you owe your livelihood to them and, and look, people say to me, are you a Trumper? I say, look, I'm a Khachigian Republican. I believe in lower taxes, I believe in a strong national defense, I believe in anti crime policies, I believe in a strong border, I believe in a strong foreign policy. That makes me. That's the kind of Republican I am. So I think Nixon believed in that, I think Reagan believed in that. I think Trump basically believes in that. I can't defend every element of his personality. I don't have to, but I believe those things. As against Kamala Harris being a left wing nut.

[Patrick Bet-David]

If she's a left wing nut, you know, Arnold just came out saying he's endorsing her. Cheney's came out, they're endorsing.

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, they're just angry at him.

[Patrick Bet-David]

At Trump.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, well, the Cheneys are. Liz is.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Because the comments made, I guess.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, yeah, I guess.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What do you think about Trump?

[Ken Khachikian]

I think there's a lot of ways he could improve. I think he could have made this a landslide, not a big landslide, but he could have won this election very, very, very comfortably.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You think he will?

[Ken Khachikian]

I think if he wins, it's narrowly, but I think he could have done it comfortably if he had changed a lot of things. But, you know, I'm not in the business anymore and.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Have you already voted or.

[Ken Khachikian]

No, I voted. If I had, you know, if I had to give my, if I gave my advice. I mean, I know Susie, I knew Susie Wiles when she was Susie Summerall and campaign worker that worked for me and others in the 84 Reagan, in the Reagan Bush campaign. But, and I, and I like her. But, and, but if I Called her up and gave her advice, and she'd probably listen to me, but it wouldn't matter because she'd pass it on and he'd ignore it. So.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Wow. Last thing before we wrap up. Were you ever there? I once had Michael Reagan at an event. I called it Saving America Doing the impossible, July of 2009, where I was dressed as George Washington, my wife was dressed as Lady Liberty, and another one of my guys was. Guys was dressed as Lincoln. And he said, what would you like me to speak about? I said, just tell stories about your father. And, you know, last time he's seeing him, he went to visit him, and then he's leaving. He looks back. He forgot to hug him. And he looks back, you know, he's gone like this. And Michael comes get out. Gets out of the car and goes. Hugs him and leave. Were you with him at the last days when his memory and he was going through, you know, challenging times or not really.

[Ken Khachikian]

No. Well, yes and no. I'm okay. I can clear up one thing people ask me. Was he losing it in his last days? And I said, no, he was. His brain was working perfectly at the end of his presidency. I met him in 1990, worked with him on some stuff in the 90 midterm elections. His mind was working good. I helped him on the 1992 convention speech, and his brain was fine. But in 92, I did run into him at. I can't remember. It was a fundraising event, and it was the first time he didn't recognize me. And that was two years before he declared his Alzheimer's.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So two years after the end of his presidency?

[Ken Khachikian]

No, that was four years.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And you felt the major difference where he didn't recognize.

[Ken Khachikian]

That was the first time. Four years after his presidency, that was the first time he. I walked up to him and he drew a blank.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What was the exchange like?

[Ken Khachikian]

I just walked up to him. And normally if I walked up to him, he'd have a big grin on his face and say, hello. Oh, hi, Ken. And I said, hello, Mr. President. Wow, great to see you, or something like that. And he had this blank on his mind, which, you know, it's like I've had that running into high school classmates that I haven't seen for 50 years, but that's a little different. But this was. I mean, he. He never did. He never didn't know who I was.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What was the gap between the last time you said four years?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, no, it was two years.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Got it. Four years after the end of his presidency. Two years of the last time he saw you?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And was Nancy, did this happen accidentally or was it a scheduled thing that you came to the house and.

[Ken Khachikian]

No, no, this was accidentally, but, I mean. Got it. I mean, I didn't. It wasn't a shock thing. I mean, I. I walked up slowly to him and.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Did you try to explain yourself? Like, was. What was the.

[Ken Khachikian]

I just said, oh, you know, I. I told him who I was and. Or I put. Put it in context. And then we started visiting a little bit and. And then. But I didn't. I tried not to make him feel uncomfortable, let's put it that way.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What was Nancy like at that time, at the last days?

[Ken Khachikian]

I didn't have any real contact with her that much. And so we. I. I didn't. You know, after the presidency, I didn't keep that much contact. I was so active with my other things. I was running political campaigns, and I had my own business, and I ran. Oh, geez. And I was running Governor Duke Majin's campaigns in California. I was helping with Attorney General campaigns. And I guess I should have stayed in better contact with Reagan. I should have visited with him more. It's funny, I didn't. And he was not one to do phone calls with Nixon. We talked on the phone all the time. We talked on phone constantly. Reagan was not that kind of relationship. Reagan. We didn't talk on the phone.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Interesting. And with Nixon. Did you speak to Nixon when Pat passed away? Did you have an interaction with him at that time, or. No.

[Ken Khachikian]

No. And that would. That would have been awkward. He was so. He was devastated, and I didn't.

[Patrick Bet-David]

It's the only time I think I've seen him cry. Like, there's videos of him, of him crying.

[Ken Khachikian]

He was sobbing. Yes.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You ever seen that? Have you?

[Ken Khachikian]

I've seen those. I've seen the videos, yes.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You never spoke?

[Ken Khachikian]

No, I was. I was at the funeral, obviously, and.

[Patrick Bet-David]

But did you guys ever have any exchange after the funeral or. No.

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, probably, I'm sure, because I was. You know, I was on the board of his library foundation, and we were still very close at that time. I was with him, and he was. He was really. He felt a tremendous sense of loss because he depended on Pat. She was a very strong woman, and she never did leave him or turn her back on him and any of the controversial things he was involved in. She stuck with him, and he leaned on her and depended on her.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That's the voice of Billy Graham. And this is. This is watching a man. That's like watching a Man that strong in tears. It's like Trump crying. You know, it's. It's a. You know, it's a very tough thing to see with folks like that between the two. Just a wild question, Kirsten, what you'll say about this, if you have even have an opinion. Some tells me you're not going to answer that. You're going to be very diplomatic about this answer. But I may be wrong. Who do you think was a better president, Nixon or Reagan?

[Ken Khachikian]

They were two different. Two different presidents.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You started diplomatic with your answer there.

[Ken Khachikian]

You can't. There's no answer to that question. Is too different there. They had two different times of history. They were the two leading Cold War presidents. Nixon set the groundwork for Reagan to be a great president.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Nixon set the groundwork for Reagan to be a president. Great president. Then indirectly, I take that as Nixon.

[Ken Khachikian]

No, I just saying that they worked in there, were collaborators. They were, they were.

[Patrick Bet-David]

There's no Nixon. Is there a Reagan?

[Ken Khachikian]

I don't think it was an answer. You can't answer that question.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah. Did you ever spend time with the young Roger Stone back in the days or. No. Were you ever around Roger?

[Ken Khachikian]

Oh, yeah. What was he like? Is just as crazy as lunacy.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Ridley, do you have a Roger Stone story?

[Ken Khachikian]

No, just. He's just always. No, I don't have any special stories about him. Just he was. He was always the pain in the ass back and was he.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Is that a. That's a picture of.

[Ken Khachikian]

Oh, that. No, I know him back in the Nixon days, back in the 70s, early 70s.

[Patrick Bet-David]

He was a big Nixon guy.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Every. If Roger Stone's listening, every Roger Stone story, you got to cut it by 80% and then cut for. Cut half of that 40%.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay, you're saying exaggeration is what you're saying. Got it. Well, you know, have you seen a recent movie about the President Trump that just came out, the Apprentice? I'm assuming you wouldn't see it. Yeah, Roger Stone's in it. It's actually very interesting how they paint him to be.

[Ken Khachikian]

I love Roger.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah, well, he's super entertaining.

[Ken Khachikian]

No, he's. I was just on his show. Yeah. No, I love the guy. He's. He's. He's. Well, look, the. The fun thing I've had. I've been in politics since 1968. I've had a wonderful career. The personalities I've been with. It's just I turned down Clint Eastwood to run his campaign for mayor.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Clint Eastwood?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah. He called me up and wanted Me to run his campaign for mayor. I turned him down. You know.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Why? Did he scare you?

[Ken Khachikian]

No, no, no. I didn't have time. I said, I don't run mayoral campaigns. I'll get you somebody to do it for me. Just. But, you know.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Arnold ever reach out or no.

[Ken Khachikian]

No, no.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You're not a fan?

[Ken Khachikian]

No, I said. He. I don't know why he didn't reach out. I think probably somebody told him I was more conservative than he. He was, but I have no idea.

[Patrick Bet-David]

How was Duke Medjian?

[Ken Khachikian]

Oh, he's great. Wonderful man. And, you know, we had the biggest land. One of the biggest landslides in history, 1986. Just totally underestimated. He. There needs to be a book written about. I don't have. I should have written. I should write a book about. Somebody needs to write a book. He had a great governorship, had more integrity and probably the man of most integrity in politics that I've known and respected.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Was he a fighter? Was he a tough guy?

[Ken Khachikian]

Tough guy. Respected.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Is he the highest ranking. He's the highest ranking Armenian. Right. In politics. Governor, right?

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah. Ever. Yeah. Yeah. And we got. Got him elected narrowly in 1982 and then got him reelected by a massive landslide in 86 by 23%. 23%.

[Patrick Bet-David]

The chance of that happening today in California is not that high. There's. There's a guy there I don't know if you're a big fan of or not. This guy named Newsome. I don't know if you've heard of him.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You're not a fan of. Yeah, well, look, it's been. It's been great having you on. We're gonna put the link.

[Ken Khachikian]

Well, I hope I haven't disappointed you.

[Patrick Bet-David]

No, I'm. I'm. I like stories. That's what I like. Yeah, I like stories. I. I'm fascinated by politics. My parents. I grew up in a weird family where one side they were communist, the other side they were imperialists. And that was my introduction to politics. Once I thought, you know, your mom was a communist. She was. She was part of the Two Day Party. They were part of Today party. Their bible was the Karl Marx Communist Manifesto, which I read. And you have to kind of find out what that was all about. But now I see this game. It's a very interesting game. Very, very interesting game, this political game. Very. And I learned politics and business when I started competing. And I'm like, wait a minute, you guys flipped on me. You were nice to me. Now you're a son of a bitch. What happened to you? Oh, because we're taking a market and you guys teamed up together, so this is all politics. No problem. Let's have some fun. And it was actually fun seeing what that was like. So anytime I hear stories like the ones you're telling me right now, fascinated by, but I appreciate. By the way, do you know how this interview came out? Happened? Somebody on Manekt reached out to me and they said, rob, did you know the story? They reached out to me. They said on Manecht, hey, you need to have him on. Ken's got to get on the podcast. I'm like, you got to be kidding me. Yeah, let me look into it. And then I'm like, oh, wow, what an interesting story. Let's figure out a way to get this working.

[Ken Khachikian]

And, well, you need to. You need to meet her. She's a jar big little Armenian girl.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I got to meet her if she's outside because. And respect. That's the power of Manek, by the way. You have to respond back because people are paying for respond. That's why that app works so effectively.

[Ken Khachikian]

Yeah, well, she's a jar big Armenian girl.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I look forward to meeting her. Sir, it is a pleasure to meet you. I really enjoy this two hours with you, I got to tell you. Good for you. You went two hours on a podcast. A lot of people can't do it. How old are you? How old are you today?

[Ken Khachikian]

80 years old.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You're 80 years old? You did two hours podcast. This is so impressive.

[Ken Khachikian]

Hey, I'm. I'm gonna go outside and tell. I kicked Patrick's butt, by the way.

[Patrick Bet-David]

No bathroom breaks, no edit nothing. You gotta respect that. So great to have you on. Absolute pleasure.

[Ken Khachikian]

All right. We'll have a short time, huh?

[Patrick Bet-David]

I look forward to it. Take care, everybody. Bye bye. Bye bye. One of the best decisions I ever made in my life was joining the US army when I served the 101st Airborne Division, Air assault. The level of pride of America, being the greatest country in the world, went to the roof. If you are a veteran or if you support veterans, you have family members. Veterans Day, we have brand spanking new gear for you to choose from. A whole plethora of options of what to choose from. With shirts that say, we support armed veterans. I am an armed veteran. Dog tags, shirts, hats, all of the different gears that we have. And for the first 250 people that place an order, you have the option of 12 to 15 brand spanking new mugs that we have. One says Angry Patriot, another one says Bizoc Another one has got the US flag, another one has PBD podcast or valuetainment in it or a future looks bright. Go to VT merch.com place your order for Veterans Day. These things are going to go very quickly and you'll get a custom mug that'll be sent your way.