“They Cut You Off From Everyone” - Cult Deprogrammer Breaks Down 764 Network, Scientology & NXIVM | PBD Podcast | Ep. 699

Summary

Podcast Summary: "They Cut You Off From Everyone" - Cult Deprogrammer Breaks Down 764 Network, Scientology & NXIVM | PBD Podcast | Ep. 699

Episode Date: December 11, 2025
Host: Patrick Bet-David (PBD), with Rob
Guest: Rick Allen Ross (Cult Expert, Deprogrammer, Author)

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Episode Overview

This episode features renowned cult deprogrammer and author Rick Allen Ross in a deep-dive discussion with Patrick Bet-David and the PBD Podcast team. They explore the characteristics and evolution of destructive cults, examining infamous examples such as NXIVM, Scientology, the International Church of Christ, Jewish sect Lev Tahor, and the emergent criminal network known as 764 Network. The conversation moves from definitions and warning signs of cult dynamics to the intersection with internet age recruitment, and closes with a thoughtful examination of group indoctrination, ideology, and how abuse takes hold.

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Key Discussion Points & Timestamps

1. How Cults Start and Operate in the Internet Age

• [00:45 – 05:48]
  • Modern cults are born and thrive online: Social media, streaming, and online payments are used for recruitment and fundraising.
  • “If you wanted to start a cult today, you would do it online. You’d have your social media accounts… this is the new way in which cults thrive.” — Rick Allen Ross [00:47], [04:41]
• Online cult growth: Old established cults (e.g., NXIVM, Scientology) rebrand themselves digitally to persist and expand.

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2. Defining "Cult" and Its Core Characteristics

• [05:48 – 09:20]
  • Origins: The word “cult” comes from ancient roots, historically not always negative.
  • Destructive cults: Three main hallmarks:
    1. Dictatorial, worshipped leader—"Whatever the leader says is right is right."
    2. Coercive persuasion and thought reform—control over members’ lives and beliefs.
    3. Exploitation—typically for money, adulation, or sexual favors.
  • “Most cult leaders are really interested in cash, adulation, and maybe sexual favors. So that is what defines a destructive cult.” — Rick Allen Ross [08:10]

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3. The Turning Point: From Cult-like Community to Harm

• [09:20 – 12:08]
  • Social isolation is key: Cult leaders isolate members from friends and families, creating alternate realities and dependency.
  • Darker escalation: Once isolated, members are more susceptible to harmful demands—including violence or self-sacrifice.
  • Example: Good News International Church in Kenya—over 400 bodies found after members, including children, were starved [11:48].

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4. Children in Cults: Innocent Victims

• [12:08 – 13:39]
  • Children often suffer the most, brought in by parents and having no choice.
  • Example: Lev Tahor (Jewish ultra-Orthodox offshoot in Guatemala) – over 150 children rescued from severe abuse.
  • "Children then become captives... and many times, children are hurt terribly." — Rick Allen Ross [13:19]

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5. Distinctions: Motivational Movements vs. Destructive Cults

• [13:39 – 17:43]
  • Motivation gurus (e.g., Tony Robbins) differ as participation is temporary and voluntary; destructive cults demand total control and lifelong commitment.
  • NXIVM is highlighted for masking malicious intent behind self-help seminars and incremental escalation of control.

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6. NXIVM Case Study: Brainwashing, Branding, and Borrowed Techniques

• [17:43 – 34:46]
  • Keith Raniere (“Vanguard”) synthesized elements from Scientology, Landmark, Ayn Rand, and MLM cheats.
  • Members like actress Allison Mack and India Oxenberg were systematically branded and abused, following years of deepening loyalty.
  • Raniere and NXIVM emulated Scientology’s strategy of labeling critics as “suppressive persons” (SPs), and maintained “dead agent files” on enemies.
  • "He cobbled together a little bit Landmark, Scientology, Ayn Rand, [MLM]... Ranieri was not an original thinker." — Rick Allen Ross [21:03]
  • Personal account: Ross was sued by NXIVM for 14 years, was spied on, and testified at Raniere’s trial.

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7. Scientology’s Structure and Methods

• [34:46 – 48:42]
  • Leadership worship (L. Ron Hubbard, succeeded by David Miscavige); a tiered system with Sea Org “worker/drone” members who live and work for the church, and a protected celebrity class.
  • Practice of “disconnection” cuts off critics or doubters—even from family.
  • The cult's "confessional" auditing stores compromising information about members.
  • Example: A 27-year member, through Ross's intervention, left before being recruited into Sea Org—triggered by scientific disproof of the church’s “purification” claims.

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8. Cult Behavior, Accountability, and Criminality

• [96:59 – 107:56]
  • Ross emphasizes, "I care less about beliefs than behaviors. When a group is criminally hurting people—through fraud, abuse, minors’ exploitation—they cross the line."
  • True cults engage in deception and bait-and-switch: masking their intentions and real practices until members are trapped.

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9. Internet-Fueled Dangers and the 764 Network

• [118:33 – 124:01]
  • The 764 Network, a decentralized, violent child exploitation and self-harm group, used gaming and chat apps to entrap vulnerable kids worldwide.
  • “If someone is a parent today... your kid can be on a smartphone... and being recruited and indoctrinated in a cult online while they're in your own house." — Rick Allen Ross [120:18]
  • Key advice for parents: Monitor online activity, look for behavioral changes, be vigilant and involved.

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10. The Psychology of Indoctrination and Recovery

• [109:55 – 115:21]
  • Not all indoctrination is harmful—passing along family values can build resilience.
  • Distinction: Destructive cults use deception, "sacred science" (claims of infallibility), suppression of criticism, and domination.
  • Healthy groups embrace accountability and transparency; destructive cults demand unthinking loyalty and isolation.

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11. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On social isolation in cults:

  "As the leader influences them to cut off family, old friends, and embed in this bubble ... they have no other frame of reference." — Rick Allen Ross [09:20]

• On warning signs for potential cult involvement:

  “Are you becoming socially isolated? Are you withdrawing from old friends and family? Are you becoming preoccupied with the group?... Is the leader accountable? ... Are ex-members cut off or stigmatized?” — Rick Allen Ross [74:47]

• On leaving cults and recovery:

  “Many people, when they leave, think, ‘Well, there’s something wrong with me, I'm ashamed, I failed.’ They don’t understand—it was the group.” — Rick Allen Ross [68:36]

• On manipulation and romantic abuse parallels:

  “People are tricked, and then trapped, by abusive, controlling partners.” — Rick Allen Ross [117:54]

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12. Final Takeaways & Advice

• How to protect yourself and loved ones:

  • Beware of leaders demanding uncritical loyalty and isolating you from other communities.
  • Transparency, accountability, and openness to criticism are hallmarks of healthy organizations.
  • Trust your instincts and research group histories—look for reports of abuse, financial secrecy, or criminal charges.
  • Vulnerability is universal; everyone can be susceptible at low points in life—approach offers of dramatic help or "secret knowledge" with skepticism.

• For Parents:

  • Maintain open, active communication with children about their online activities and social lives.
  • Be alert for sudden changes in behavior, especially isolation.

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Notable Cult Cases Discussed

• NXIVM: Self-help facade hiding sex-slavery, branding, and criminal exploitation.
• Scientology: Hierarchical, secrecy-shrouded, use of “disconnection” and personal secrets for control.
• International Church of Christ: Christian offshoot; hierarchical discipleship and social control.
• Lev Tahor: Ultra-Orthodox Jewish sect; extreme abuse and control over children and women.
• 764 Network: International online cult exploiting, harming, and blackmailing children.

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Concluding Thought

Rick Allen Ross’s expertise is a powerful, lived warning about the spectrum of cultic control—from subtle daily coercion to headline-grabbing excesses. His practical framework and nuanced take urge listeners to use vigilance, critical thinking, and compassion to protect themselves and others, online and offline.

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Book Mentioned:
Cults Inside Out: How People Get In and Can Get Out — Rick Allen Ross

For More: Find Rick Allen Ross on Manect and social media.

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

[Rick Allen Ross]

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Or.

[Rob]

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[Rob]

This question is very innocent. How does one start a cult today?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Well, the times have changed. So if you wanted to start a cult today, you would do it online. You'd have your social media accounts, you'd stream and all of these things that I'm describing have in fact been done by cult leaders. This is the new way in which cults thrive.

[Rob]

But what is the point where they go to now? Sacrifice your life.

[Rick Allen Ross]

The leader starts telling you that the outside world is evil. This is when it starts getting very dark. And then the leader can say things like let's attack the Tokyo subway system. Or you can have a situation which recently happened. Paul McKenzie told his people to fast and pray because the end of the world was coming. And over 400 bodies have been recovered in Kenya.

[Rob]

Are you following anything with Diddy?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yeah, I followed a bit. I don't necessarily see him as a cult leader, but I see him as using cult like techniques of coercive control to dominate and manipulate women. Cassie felt he loves me, he's going to take care of me. And then it changes and morphs into something entirely different.

[Rob]

Here's a conclusion I've come up with. Somebody may listen to you and say what are you talking about? Rich Jews don't doctrinate like it's full on cult like to convert. Let me, let me just finish and then you'll see where I'm going with this. Everybody is in a cult, including you. I think you're in a cult.

Adam. What's your point? The future looks bright. My handshake is better than anything I ever saw. It's right here. You are a one of one I send you. I don't think I've ever said this before.

I don't know what the name of the movie was, but maybe.

Score is what it was called. Score with Robert De Niro. Anyways, we're having conversations about how Much. We both respect Edward Norton's movies, but he was not a cult leader. Right, he's not a cult leader.

[Rick Allen Ross]

No.

[Rob]

Maybe Fight Club.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yeah, in Fight Club, he played. Maybe Fight Club, he kind of played a cult leader. And also in. In. In the movie that he. He followed a man who led a hate group. What was that?

[Rob]

Primal fear?

[Rick Allen Ross]

No, in X. American History X. Yeah, in American History X, he followed a hate group leader, and that leader was charismatic and he was enthralled with him, and he followed him and eventually realized that it was a mistake. But I think that's a typical pro, a typical story of someone who becomes disenchanted in a cult, and then the.

[Rob]

Story ends with him trying to get his brother out of it.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Right.

[Rob]

And his brother ends up. You know, how the movie ends, where.

Oh, it's. It's a wild ending to a movie. But. Okay, we're not going to talk about movies today. Today we're trying to learn how, you know, you identify as a.

Deprogrammer, right? You're a cult specialist and a deprogrammer, and you've done this to over 500 patients of yours, right. Over the years. So, you know, we have one of our guys in the back who's Humberto. He came in this morning. He's begging me to ask you this one question. He said, pat, please start with this question. His question is very innocent. Some may call it a dumb question, but they say there's never a bad question. He said, how does one start a cult today? He's interested in starting a cult today. He wants to have a cult like following. He wants people to be crazy about him. And he's wondering if you wanted to do that, how do you do that today?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Well, the times have changed, and so if you wanted to start a cult today, you would do it online. This is the new way in which cults thrive and recruit people and raise money. So you'd have your social media accounts, X, Facebook, TikTok, you'd stream, you would have websites, you'd have a YouTube channel. You might book a retreat through Airbnb. And all of these things that I'm describing have in fact been done by cult members, excuse me, cult leaders, to pull in members. And so they recruit online, they get money online, you know, PayPal, Venmo, and everything happens online. And that is the new world of cults. Almost any of the old cults that were established have now reinvented themselves or rebranded themselves online. And people who are aspiring to become cult leaders begin typically online.

[Rob]

So okay. And I want to talk about that because the question then becomes, is it easier to be a cult leader today or 50 years ago? Pre social, pre cell phones, pre all that stuff. But prior to that, is the word cult. Where does the word cult come from? Does it come from culture? Because it's a bunch of different words that it comes from. Where does cult come from?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Well, you know, it's, I believe, you know, from a language standpoint, it would go back to Roman times. But. But the word cult can. Has a range of meaning. So for example, you could have a cult following. You could have a podcast and have fans that are very devoted to you. And that could be called a cult following, like Taylor Swift and the Swifties, or you could be be obsessed with shopping at Trader Joe's, and that could be called a kind of cult following. But when we use the word culture, typically what we're talking about is a destructive cult. And there are three core characteristics that form the nucleus of virtually every definition of a destructive cult. And that would be, number one, that you have this dictatorial leader who becomes an object of worship. And that leader is the defining element and driving force of the group. So it could be like David Koresh, Keith Ranieri, Jim Jones, Charles Manson. And whatever the leader says is right is right. Whatever the leader says is wrong is wrong. And the leader dominates and controls everything. And then number two, that leader uses identifiable techniques of coercive persuasion and thought reform to gain undue influence over his or her followers. And then once they have that undue influence, they use it to exploit and do harm to the people that follow them. And that varies by degree from group to group. Not all groups are mixing the Kool Aid, as they say, to poison and kill their members through some kind of mass suicide or engage in criminal activity. Most cult leaders are really interested in cash adulation and maybe sexual favors. So that is what defines a destructive cult.

[Rob]

Those three core characteristics, cash adulation and sexual favors.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yeah.

[Rob]

All right, Humberto, there you go, buddy. I'm sure you know, so. All right, so cash adulation and sexual favors. Okay, so the word cult comes from culture. The word by itself is not a bad word, is the people who have. Who use their cult like following to harm and take advantage of people rather than those like, I would say Joe Rogan's got a cult like following. I'm sure you would agree. Yeah, I would say, you know, Ronaldo has a cult like following. Right. A massive cult like following. There are many actors and singers and comedians that have cult like following. Podcasters have cult like followings, but what's the switch like? If you look at the pattern of a guy that uses their influence and their cult like following to turn it into hurting somebody, harming somebody, what is that switch? What is, where are those guys willing to go to that others with high influence don't? What's the difference? What's the place they're willing to go to?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Where we're going is that basically the leader takes control of critical thinking and decision making and value judgments. And the followers become increasingly socially isolated because the leader influences them to cut off family, old friends, and to embed in this, if you will, bubble or alternate reality controlled by the leader. So as the leader takes his following further and further away from, from their moorings, their family.

Their community and isolates them, they become very easily influenced because they have no other frame of reference and everyone around them by a deliberate process is a member of this group. So if, for example, you look at someone else and say, hey, I think what the leader's saying sounds kind of crazy. The person next to you, what are you talking about? He's all powerful, he's wonderful. We should just go along with him. So there's no way to get accurate feedback as you become more and more embedded. And then once you lose your, your friends, your family, you're socially isolated in this group and the leader starts telling you that the outside world is evil, everyone is really negative, they're awful, and only the people within this group are right and, and good. And we need to protect ourselves, we need to defend ourselves against the persecution and the onslaught from the outside world. This is when it starts getting very dark. And then the leader can say things like, let's attack the Tokyo subway system, which Shoko Asahara, the leader of Aum Shinrikyo, did. And thousands of Japanese in the 90s were hospitalized. Many died. Or you can have a situation which recently happened in Kenya where the leader of this group called the Good News International Church, Paul McKenzie, told his people to fast and pray because the end of the world was coming. And over 400 bodies have been recovered in Kenya. So, so how do they die?

[Rob]

How do they take those?

[Rick Allen Ross]

They died from starvation. And, and, and hundreds of them were children. And so not only did the adults fast and pray and starve to death, but their children did as well. And this is one of the most horrible things about destructive cults.

[Rob]

Can you pull up the leader, the picture of the leader? Please continue. Go for it.

[Rick Allen Ross]

This is one of the most horrible things about destructive cults. Is we can talk about the process of undue influence and coercive persuasion and how people are bent to the will of the leader. But, you know, their children are simply brought in by their parents who think the group is good. And the children then become captives, if you will, of the culture. And many times children are hurt terribly. I recently have been involved in helping the children of a group called Lev Tahor, which is a spin off of ultra orthodox Judaism. This is a group that has members from New York, from the United States, Canada and Israel. And after fleeing multiple investigations for child abuse, they ended up in Guatemala. And they created a compound outside of Guatemala City. Eventually, the authorities rescued over 150 children from that compound who were being horribly mistreated.

And sexually abused, physically abused, not receiving proper care, food, medical care. And this is what happens in destructive cults, is the children suffer because they were brought into this group or born into this group, and they have no other choice.

[Rob]

Yeah, but what I want to know is what is. What is the. Everything you said at the beginning, you know, they tell you the world is negative, stay positive, you know, so, okay, that to me could be a Tony Robbins. That could be some motivational guy. So, you know, you have to protect yourself from negativity from the outside. Sometimes your own family doesn't want the best for you. You know, it's not about.

You know, the. The family isn't just about blood. It's about who's with you today when you have big dreams and you want to do something. Okay, all of this stuff we've heard a million times from a lot of different people, right? Okay, so all that's good, some of that stuff has some truth behind it. You know, when you're going out there, people, even parents, would probably teach that to their kids. But what is the point where they go to now sacrifice your life? And what were the three words you said? Cash, adulation and sexual favors. What is that tipping point?

[Rick Allen Ross]

That tipping point is when you become so socially isolated within the group, unlike a motivational speaker, you go to their seminar, you leave, you rejoin the world. You take with you whatever principles they may have taught you. And to some extent, some of the themes used by cults can be seen.

In other areas in the world. And that's part of the facade of destructive cults, is that they are going to project a positive image. They're going to put forth a kind of mask that doesn't let you see what is behind the door, what the more dark demands might be of the group. So unlike a Seminar, you know, let's take nxivm. Nxivm was a seminar selling company that did self help, motivational kind of, of seminars. People would go off, they do a 13, 14 day intensive, they would be assigned a coach, they would go through a training process that was dictated by a manual. And, and behind all of this was Keith Renieri, who they called Vanguard. What the difference is from Nexium. Yeah, this is the leader of nxivm, which really was congregating around Albany, New York. And Ranieri would eventually be arrested, tried for sex trafficking, fraud, various things, and now he's in prison for 120 years. But when the people became involved, they had no idea what Ranieri's darker intentions were, where he really wanted to take them. They thought it was like other self help groups, motivational speakers, etc. Where it changed was it became more and more demanding and it became a complete way of life. In other words, you don't just come here and learn what we have to teach you and then take it home and then use it and, and goodbye and get on with your life. We become your life. We consume your life. We expect you to move to Albany, New York so that you can be close to Vanguard. Keith Ranieri. We want you to recruit people and if anyone in any way, shape or form is criticizing what we're teaching, we want you to cut them off, disconnect from them. And so, so that's very different than a Tony Robbins or some type of motivational speaker. Tony. Rob. Tony Roberts certainly has his critics, but I don't think anyone would say that, you know, he has a compound. People have given up their lives to be with him and live near him and that their life becomes completely controlled by him.

[Rob]

Got it?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yeah.

[Rob]

I just found a clip of his most recent.

Thoughts he shared before he went away. Sentenced to 120 years in prison. Is this it, Rob? Yes. Can you go back to the one you just had? I just want to know how the guy speaks. What's his tone, the way he speaks. Can you press play?

[Rick Allen Ross]

They called him Vanguard, the founder of nxiv, a shadowy self help organization described by federal prosecutors as cult like. Keith Ranieri has not spoken publicly since his arrest more than two years ago. But now, just days from being sentenced on federal charges, he is talking.

[Rob]

You know, one of the things that's most important in our country is the justice system. And although, you know, people can hate me and do and think I'm an odious type of a character, you know.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Awful, actually.

[Rob]

Both the Devil and the Saint should be able to get the exact same treatment under our justice system.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Today, Ranieri spoke with, of all people, the man who helped bring him down, Web journalist Frank Parlotto, a former NXIVM spokesman. Parlotto himself pleaded not guilty to tax and other charges that originated from his NXIVM involvement. You plan all 14 steps ahead on. If you have seen the HBO docu series the Vow, Parlotto's name may ring a bell. Parlotto broke the story that a group within NXIVM was treating women as sex slaves and branding them with Ranieri's initials. Ranieri was convicted in 2019 of sex trafficking, forced labor, conspiracy, and racketeering. Do you intend to.

Make a statement at your sentencing that you are innocent?

[Rob]

Yes, I am innocent. And although it is, this is a horrible tragedy.

You'Ve spent a lot of time with Keith.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Oh, yeah.

[Rob]

How many hours have you spent with Keith?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Many hours. I sat through his deposition. He sued me. Interesting story. Basically, ID programmed people that were involved in Nexium for families. I worked with victims, and I facilitated reports being written by a clinical psychologist and a forensic psychiatrist analyzing the seminar training that Keith Ranieri used, which, by the way, he ripped off Scientology. He was really a plagiarist because many of the things that he taught were lifted directly from Scientology. For example, calling people that were critical of nxivm suppressive people or suppressive persons, sps, urging people to disconnect from. From sps. This was right out of Scientology. So Rene, what he did was he put together something that took a little bit from Landmark. Education and seminar structure was from 40.

[Rob]

Years ago, 30 years ago, Landmark and PSI. And there was a couple programs like that back in the day. And they would call you at the end, crying, I'm so sorry what I did to you. And I'm like, why is this person calling me? I'm at this thing called Landmark Forum, and, you know, I just really messed up. I should have never said that. Please. You just took me back 30 years.

[Rick Allen Ross]

So Landmark just recently went bankrupt, but they were ongoing up until very recently. And by the way, they also sued me and lost. But the. But the point is that Ranieri was not an original thinker. He cobbled together, and many cult leaders do this. They copy other groups. They may have been in another group before they created their own. And so what you end up with is a composite. Ranieri's composite was a little bit Landmark. Scientology, Ayn Rand, the philosophy of Objectivism, and the multilevel marketing he learned as an Amway distributor and later he created his own MLM called Consumer Byline, which was sued out of existence by attorney generals of various states. Ranieri was soft spoken. He seemed like an introvert. He lied about his background. He was a genius. He was a stellar student at university.

[Rob]

He said he had like a 240 IQ or something like that. The man, he had a 2.26 GPA.

[Rick Allen Ross]

The man was an average student. This came out in deposition and sworn testimony. He lied about all. So what he really was was not a very smart guy because he ended up in prison for 120 years. He could have done a correction along the way and avoided that. Instead, like many cult leaders, he fed on his adulation. And it led to a kind of hubris and arrogance that ultimately meant that he kept escalating his bad behavior, hurting more and more people, thinking he could get away with it forever. And eventually he was held accountable. And I would agree with him, he is odious, he is a very negative person. But the way he projected himself was as a kind of philosopher king, quiet, soft spoken, not the brash, charismatic, kind of extroverted cult leader that you typically see. But he was able to pull people in. And the people who were pulled in were. They went through intensive after intensive after intensive. So by the time the women were branded and and there were quite a few of them that, that were branded with a cauterizing iron and no anesthetic. And Keith Renery would watch.

Remotely. And these women, they had been through so much by the time that that event occurred that you have to rewind it and understand that this took years of what we would call brainwashing before they reached that point. And in fact, it was a medical doctor, a do that eventually lost her license that did the branding with the cauterizing iron. And she was that caught up in Ranieri's alternate reality. And of course you had the actress Allison Mack and she was brought in by another actress, Kristin Kruke from the series Smallville. And these were successful women who had very good careers and thought that NXIVM would improve their lives. And then I worked with Katherine Oxenberg, who is best known from the series dynasty in the 80s, and her daughter India Oxenberg was also brought into the group. And at that time Katherine Oxenberg's husband, Caspar Van Dieme, also went to some of the training. But eventually Catherine and Caspar Van Diem would drop out of nxivm. But the problem was India was still in and she would eventually be Branded and go through a horrible.

[Rob]

She was branded?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yes. And she would go through a horrible process of being separated from her family, turned against her family. You know, incommunicado. And Frank Parlotto, by the way, was originally hired by Keith Renieri as a kind of fixer and PR guy. I think, as I recall, part of what his job was was to deal with me and let me backtrack and say that there were these two doctors, a clinical psychologist, a forensic psychiatrist who wrote three reports about NXIVM that were withering in their analysis. I put that online and published it. That is why Ranieri sued me. He wanted to shut down the. Any kind of discussion of his training online. He wanted me to remove those reports and I refused to do that. And he sued me for 14 years and eventually that suit was dismissed. And then subsequently he was arrested. In fact, I testified at his trial.

[Rob]

You testified at his trial?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yes, I did.

[Rob]

You had a one on one conversation with him?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Oh, yes. You know, we went through what's called court ordered mediation. The lawsuit was in federal court and the federal judge ordered that we get together and try to negotiate a settlement. And I'm telling you, you have. That was an interesting experience, sitting with a cult leader trying to negotiate a settlement from this harassment lawsuit. And I can remember that very well.

[Rob]

What vibes did he give you? Like, you know, think movie characters. Like when you think about movie characters, you know the character Kaiser Sosi from Unused from the Usual Suspects. Right. I don't know if you know Kaiser Sosey in a movie. Usual Suspect. Think about, you know.

Edward Norton from Prime Primal Fear. What character? Can you tell us what he was like when you were negotiating with him?

[Rick Allen Ross]

I don't know, he was like a little. He's a very short guy. I mean, I'm not very tall. I'm five seven. And he was quite a bit shorter than me. Not impressive at all. And by the way, he literally stank. I mean the guy didn't stank. Yeah, he smelled bad. He wasn't too big on showers. He was ill kept. He was an odd guy. And he tried to come across as a deep thinker, very quiet, but when he didn't, when he was confronted, he would blow up. So what happened in the negotiations that we had was he kept running his philosophy, which is called rational inquiry, which is a bunch of junk that he used to subdue people their critical thinking. And he kept throwing that out at me and saying, you don't understand, listen to this, listen to that. And I looked at him at one point. And I said, look, Keith, I don't care what you believe. I'm not interested. What I'm here to do is court ordered mediation and settlement, and that's what we're here for. And he would keep starting up. And finally I looked at him and I said, Keith, you know what I think is you're a cult leader and you brainwash people and you're destructive and you hurt people, and that's who you are. And nothing you say is going to change.

[Rob]

What do you say to that?

[Rick Allen Ross]

He kind of blew up. You know, he got very red faced, his voice shook, and he was very upset. And I could tell that in the bubble that he inhabited where no one ever criticized him, that was just. That was the cardinal sin. So he went directly from that into a deposition in which he. He was asked many questions about his life, his past. By the way, those depositions are now online. And I also met Nancy Salzman, who was the second in command of nxivm.

[Rob]

Can you hold that thought? This is a clip I found of Keith from 1980s. I just want to know how this guy speaks. Can you. Can you play this clip? Rob.

[Rick Allen Ross]

What is Pac man fever and who's likely to get it now? Just about anyone. Pac man, what does this have to.

[Rob]

Do with Keith Lanier? Rob.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Is he about to come up?

[Rob]

Fast forward a little bit.

See if he's anywhere. There. Right there. Okay, let's see.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Over 2 million points with a single Pac Man. This is like the Rubik cube to a certain extent. A lot of people play just competitively, but it's actually like a puzzle. And because the game appeals to women.

[Rob]

That was him. What a. So, okay. Yeah, Seems like a regular guy.

[Rick Allen Ross]

I don't know about that.

[Rob]

In that.

[Rick Allen Ross]

I mean, there were stories that were reported about Keith Renery harassing little girls and terrorizing them at the age of 10. So I think that in my opinion, and I think, you know, this can be borne out, he was really bad from a very early age. He was. He was harassing people, terrorizing people, manipulating people.

[Rob]

What do we know about his parents?

[Rick Allen Ross]

From what I gather, they were pretty good people. And he would at times imply that he was somehow an abused kid, that he had suffered and whatever. But in reality, from what I gathered from talking to people that knew the family he had, he had nice parents, his father in particular. And so you could argue that this man is a psychopath. I think mental health professionals would see him as that and that he was born that way. Perhaps it's in his DNA, you know, as they say, bad to the bone. And many of the cult leaders that I've dealt with over the years, they seem to be that way. They seem to form a pattern where they're insensitive to the suffering of others, they're incapable of empathy, and when they hurt people, they just don't feel anything interesting. And that their idea of right and wrong is what's good for me is right, and what's wrong is what's bad for me. So do what I tell you and cooperate with me to get. Give me what I want, and you're good, and we're good, but otherwise, it's bad. And so that's how Keith Renery was. Was he obsessed with video games? Whatever. I mean, what came out in his deposition was he never really had a real job. He was either a student or he was running an MLM. He was always taking advantage of people.

[Rob]

What MLMs was he in? Who was? It was Amway. What else was he?

[Rick Allen Ross]

He was an Amway distributor, is my understanding. And then he created his own MLM called consumer byline, and it was a scam, and that's why it went under. And then he created NXIVM with Nancy Salzman, his second in command. And Salzman was a nurse. She had a background in what's called neuro linguistic programming, nlp, and she shared that with Ranieri. And together they designed his training, which I think anyone who reads through the manual and looks at the study notes will recognize a pattern of coercive persuasion and manipulation that is evident in the way the course curriculum was designed from the very beginning. So Salzman knew that. Though she might argue today that she's a victim, I don't see Nancy Salzman as a victim. In fact, when they raided her house, they found $500,000 in cash in the house. To me, if you have that much money stashed, you're not really a victim. You're a co conspirator. And Nancy Salzman would eventually go to prison for withholding information in the lawsuit against me, which is a crime in a federal lawsuit. And also they would find files in her basement of the perceived enemies of nxivm, including me. And I saw this file when I testified in the criminal trial of Keith Renery. They showed it to me. Did you know they had a file on you and you? Yeah. And they showed.

[Rob]

This is very similar to Scientology so far, what you're saying. Every time I've interviewed somebody that said something bad about Scientology, I've gotten An email and a website about why that person's wrong and history of that person's wrongdoing over their lifetime. Whatever it is.

[Rick Allen Ross]

That's their dead agent file. Is. That's what it's called for.

[Rob]

For a Scientology.

[Rick Allen Ross]

In Scientology, if they put together a file on a perceived enemy, it's called your dead agent file. I think mine is hundreds of pages long. I've. It's been thrown around.

[Rob]

You're famous in Scientology.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Well, I'm certainly considered an sp. I've been labeled an SP for good. For decades. Yeah. And I.

[Rob]

Boy, you're a troublemaker.

[Rick Allen Ross]

It's.

[Rob]

To them. That's not.

[Rick Allen Ross]

And their lead counsel, Kendrick Moxon, and I have crossed swords in court, so. So I think. Yeah. Scientology is an example of a group that goes after its enemies. Keith Rayneri, I think, learned from that example.

[Rob]

Did they ever meet that. Does he have any. As. I just tapped right in if there's any affiliation. There's nothing connected between the two.

[Rick Allen Ross]

I have been told that one of the inner circle in Nexium was a former Scientologist, and I was also told that at one time when Keith Renee was suing me, he exchanged ideas or thoughts or had some kind of. Of input from Scientology in regards to going after me. Certainly my dead agent file was used by Nexium, and by the way, Nexium had me under surveillance. At one point, they were actually buying my garbage in a building that I lived in.

[Rob]

Scientology.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Well, very similar. And they went into my banking records and phone records, and. And I would eventually sue and settle with the PI Company that was hired by nxivm. So, you know, NXIVM was. They were brutal. They were very insidious in the way that they went after people. But let's. Let me just share this. The key to understanding NXIVM is that. Is that Keith Rayneri was able to recruit two heirs to the Seagram's liquor fortune, and that is Claire and Sarah Bronfman. These sisters reportedly gave Keith Renary over $100 million.

[Rob]

Stop it.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yeah, yeah. He was. When he was arrested. There were. Yes.

[Rob]

She looks like somebody that would waste that money.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Well, she went to prison for almost seven years over Nexium.

[Rob]

That's a terrible mug shot. Is that a mug shot, or is that just a picture?

[Rick Allen Ross]

I.

[Rob]

Can you see if that's a mug shot? Ra.

[Rick Allen Ross]

It doesn't say down here, to be honest with you. I think that's kind of a flattering picture because I've. Stop it. Yeah. Because I'VE seen Claire Bronfman.

[Rob]

You met her?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yeah, I didn't meet her face to face, but at another court ordered mediation, she was there representing nxivm. She was an officer of nxivm, the corporation. And she was scurrying around, talking to different mediators, former federal judges, trying to follow through on whatever Ranieri's plan was at that mediation. But she really was a pawn of Ranieri for years and years and went to prison for seven years. And to this day, I think she would still say positive things about Keith Renieri. She would, yes.

[Rob]

Okay.

I'm trying to think about another guy that 20 years ago, he had his blue CD set that I listened to every one of them and he had. He's.

[Rick Allen Ross]

He.

[Rob]

But I don't think he ended up going this far. I think to him he was just a guy that. Trying to pull up his name to see if I have it or not. I'm not talking about the. The great ones that change a lot of people's lives. I'm not talking Napoleon Hill, Jim Rohn, Nightingale Brian Tracy. I'm not talking about any of these guys. It was a different guy. But okay, Scientology. You know, I've worked with Scientologists, and I will tell you, from my experience.

I've never had a bad experience with Scientologists. They work very hard. I recruited people from the organization. They would work 16 hour days.

They were not my agents. We shared an office together selling insurance. So they ran their own agency. I ran my own agency, but we were overlapping each other. And I would help them grow their business because one of the guys, you know, became a friend. And when we're at the office late at night, midnight, you know, 11 o', clock, I'm finishing up my day. And I would say, well, you know, do you know what ASSIST is? Let me. We do something called Assist. We do something. And I went to the facility, I got some of the books, I read some of the material. Dianetics and other things. I probably have a couple Dianetics copies of my office. And you see some things that are interesting. Then you read about the founder. Then things get a little bit suspicious and like, wait a minute, what's. And then you read Leah Remini and watch the stuff she did. Or Presley, is it Leslie Presley, if I'm saying it correctly, one of the Presleys. Right. Who was the one that was Priscilla.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Pressilla Presley joined and she brought in Lisa Marie Presley, her daughter.

[Rob]

That's right. So what patterns do you notice with Scientology like this? However? They've never gotten in trouble. Not. They've never gotten in trouble. They're still around. They're still there. They still have their religion exemption. They still have the tax benefits. What patterns do you notice there?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Well, I think what you see is worship of the leader. I mean, L. Ron Hubbard is considered sacrosanct, really. And his writings are sacred. In fact, they have them written in. In. In. In. In metal and stored in a mountain to preserve them. So I think what you see typically is a kind of worship of L. Ron Hubbard. Though he is dead. He was succeeded by his secretary, David Miskevage, who now occupies a similar position in Scientology. Very powerful. He's. He's a virtual dictator, in my opinion. And so what you, have you ever met him? No, I have not never met him. I've, I've met their lead counsel, Kendrick Moxon. I've met quite a few Scientologists over the years and former Scientologists. There's a division of, of. Of who is what. What could be called a public or a member of Scientology, but they are not a full time member. The people that are in Sea Org, the Sea Organization, are full timers. There are thousands of them and they staff buildings and so forth. I would question the way those people are treated because I've talked to former Sea Org members and you know, what is their health care benefit, what is their retirement benefit? How much are they actually paid? Why do they have to sign billion year contracts for this life and successive lives? You know, are they or are they not treated fairly? There are allegations that they're not based on what people have said that have left. Then there's the whole celebrity crowd. You know, John Travolta, Tom Cruise, Jenna Elfman, the people who are treated very well within Scientology. Scientology has celebrity centers to cater to celebrities. So I would say that you could divide Scientology up and you could say, well, the celebrities are treated in one way in which they would say, Scientology is great. We're being treated very well. And then at the bottom, you have these Sea Org members, many of them brought into Scientology as children, raised within Scientology, schooled by Scientology, and they become the backbone of Scientology. You know, the worker drones that keep everything going. So Scientology also the, the families that call me will talk about how a loved one became involved in Scientology. And the deeper they became involved, the more control Scientology had over their life. And as the family questioned that and questioned what was happening and how it was affecting their life, Scientology would say, well, they're a suppressive person and you need to disconnect from them. So I have done interventions to get people out of Scientology. In one case, which I recount in my book Cults Inside out, was a man who had been in Scientology for 27 years. He was almost 50 when I met him. And he had a wife, he had two children. He had always functioned as someone who would take courses and. And. And be active with Scientology, but had his own home, his own life. His family and his wife would take courses and his children to humor him, as they would tell me, but they never became fully immersed. At one point, Scientology says to this, to this guy, we want you to become a full time Sea Org member. Divorce your wife, leave your family, move into Sea Org housing, because Sea Org members, you know, they eat, sleep, breathe Scientology. And he was going to do that. And then his family contacted me, we did an intervention, and he decided to leave Scientology, which for him was really very difficult because all of his friends were Scientologists and he had grown up in this organization. So when he walked away, he thought, can I still have these friends or will I have to let them go? And it ended up where he had to let them go because they kept trying to pull him back in and he had to leave. And I can remember at one point, his children literally getting on their knees in front of him. He was sitting in his living room, and they were crying, and they were saying, dad, don't do it. Don't go into Seorg. Don't leave us. We love you. We want you in our lives. Please don't do this. And of course, his wife was crying. He started crying. I think what finally helped him to get out of Scientology was realizing that the writings of L. Ron Hubbard were flawed. Hubbard believed that toxins could reside in the fatty tissues of the body indefinitely. And so Scientology has a routine called the Purification Rundown in which you go through saunas.

[Rob]

Lake Arrowhead is one of their main facilities. Yeah.

[Rick Allen Ross]

And you take large doses of niacin and so on, and you're supposedly going to sweat out whatever toxins are in your body. And Hubbard would, Would. Would propose, or he wrote that, let's say you at one time did lsd, or at one time, you. You took antidepressants or whatever. They're in your fatty tissue indefinitely until you do the purification rundown, which, of course, Scientology collects money for. You know, they can collect thousands of dollars for somebody doing the purification rundown. At one point, they were through an organization called Narconon, which is, in my opinion, a front for Scientology. It's an anti Drug program and Narconon run run rehabs, but it's based on Scientology and it's controversial. And so Narconon approached the California school system and they said, let us do an anti drug program for your schools to help kids say no to drugs. And they asked them specifically at that point, is this religion? Because we can't have you teaching religion to the kids. And they said, no, no. Narconon is separate from Scientology, and this is not us teaching Scientology. So they let them in and then they had complaints and they brought them back in and they said, we're getting complaints. The kids are having nightmares. They're telling their parents they've got drugs in the fatty tissue of their bodies that could be let out at any time without warning and could cause them harm. Why are you teaching that to kids? It's not true. Science has proven that drugs do not reside indefinitely in any part of the body and that they are dispelled from the body in a certain period of time. And you know, you know that from people taking drug tests. How many days before did you use drugs? It's going to come up in the test, and if it's distant, it won't come up in the test. So Scientologists said, well, this is a truth. We, this is, this is. This is what. What we say is the truth. And the school said, no, it's not the truth. It's a belief. And it's. And now you're teaching religion. You're not doing a typical drug, anti drug program. You're teaching something. And so I shared this with the man who had been in Scientology for 27 years. And I said, I can understand that L. Ron Hubbard had some quaint beliefs that seemed valid at the time that he wrote, which was in the 1950s and, and, and, and 60s. So he wrote and he thought that this was true, but science has proven it is not. So it was a theory that was disproven. And if, if what you believe in is science.

And the name of the organization is Scientology, implying it's kind of scientific, why can't the group acknowledge that this was a mistake, this theory has been proven false, and then move on, which is what science does. Science through evidence will move beyond a theory that has been disproven. And he really struggled with that because he realized, yeah, what he's saying is true. And I showed him the documentation and everything and what had happened, and he realized, well, if. When Hubbard is wrong about something, what do we do with that? Can't we.

Realize that that theory has been disproven and move on. And so that was the crack that opened up that letter. Everything else in. And then he left Scientology.

[Rob]

Yeah. The last time he did an interview, Miscavige was with Ted Koppel, and I believe it's a 94 or something like that.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Could be.

[Rob]

Rob, can you see what year that was? The couple interview? It's a long time interview and people have had a hard time.

Have had a hard time finding his wife. They don't know where his wife is.

[Rick Allen Ross]

She's been located. She. She is in relatively comfortable setting, good shape in. Yeah, in Northern. In Northern California, I think. Somewhat near.

[Rob]

She was missing for 20 years, though. Fifteen years, though.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Not really, I think. I think there was a point where people question, where is she? Where is she? But eventually it would be established that she had been assigned to a Scientology branch in California, and that's where she works and she lives. And it's relatively secluded and she is somewhat isolated. And you could even go so far as to say, well, David Miskevich, did the equivalent of woman get thee to a nunnery?

[Rob]

I mean, it says since her disappearance in 07, she has been the subject of speculation and inquiries with her whereabouts. In 2012, attorneys who said they represented her responded by saying she was leading a private life devoted to the Church of Scientology. In 2013, Leah Remini, former Scientologist and critic of the organization, filed a missing person reporting Miscavige with the LA department. LAPD closed the investigation within hours and described the report as unfounded. Has she showed herself? Have people seen her?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yes, she has, yes.

[Rob]

Okay.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yes.

[Rob]

And what. What. Where has that been documented?

[Rick Allen Ross]

I think. I think she was seen at a restaurant eating out outside of the.

[Rob]

That's great news.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Outside of the compound. She also has. The. The compound that she's in is in Northern California. It's relatively secluded. It's actually quite nice, from what I've heard. So she is basically comfortably living devoted to Scientology in seclusion. And you could argue that David Miskevich wanted to get rid of her, that he put her there to take her out of the limelight, that he didn't want to share the limelight with her, and that he wanted her out of his life. Be that as it may, she's. She's not unaccounted for. She. She lives in this relatively comfortable place in Northern California, albeit a full time Scientology facility where she's working for Scientology day in, day out. And this is her.

This is the only Scientology in Northern California I could find. The petriola Is that correct?

[Rob]

It's.

[Rick Allen Ross]

They say it's a giant compound with a hidden bunker underneath.

[Rob]

And says what? That she is there.

[Rick Allen Ross]

That's the only Scientology headquarters that I could find in a remote, secluded location in Northern California. I am not. I'm not really sure which facility it is by name, but, you know, it is in Northern California and it's not a huge facility, but it's where she is that may be the facility in fact there. But she's. People know where she is. I mean, it's not a mystery. She has been there for a number of years.

[Rob]

Yeah, the niece was on News Nation just a few months ago. Did you see that interview?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yeah, I. I'm aware of it, yes.

[Rob]

She, she. She claimed that she has been seen, but doesn't want to give proof. So the, the, you know, obviously she was critical of Scientology, but, you know, the niece herself says, I'm not sure.

Let me just have this. Rob, I'm going to send this to you if you want to take a look at this. But if you're telling me this is breaking news for a lot of us, because, you know, most people didn't know if she was.

Out there or not, but that's phenomenal news that she is good. Can you just watch that to see what she says about her being around? And that being the most recent incredible source coming from Denise.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Hi, I'm Rick Allen Ross, cult expert, intervention specialist, author of the book Cults Inside Out. You can find me on Manect.

[Rob]

Okay, so now let's, let's. Let's kind of.

Somebody from that community could say, well.

On the Scientology side.

Tom Cruise is how old? Rob, can you look up how Tom Cruise is? Tom Cruise is 63. 63 years old. Go to Grant Cardone. Okay, Grant Cardone's age. He's probably got to be late 50s, early 60s, 67 years old. Can you go to images of Grant Cardone? He does not look 67 years old. Okay, that's an older picture, but a recent one. The guy doesn't look 67 years old. It's probably a two year picture, one year picture, something like that. So somebody may say, why do these two guys, why do they look so good in their 60s? Maybe they have figured something out that others haven't. What would you say to that?

[Rick Allen Ross]

I think that. That they live very healthy, productive lives. And I think that what we should disabuse ourselves of is the notion that intelligent, successful people cannot get caught up in cults. I have personally deprogrammed five Medical doctors. One was an orthopedic surgeon, another was an anesthesiologist, very respected physicians. And each one of them, at the time that I work with them, and each intervention, thankfully, was successful. They truly believed in the group that they were in, and only through an intervention were they brought out when their family supported that intervention. So it is possible for someone very intelligent, very, very successful in life to be caught up in a group that has been called a cult. In the case of Tom Cruise, he became involved in Scientology through his first wife, Mimi Rogers, who had been herself raised in Scientology after her parents left. I think Mimi Rogers probably wanted to continue to have a life with her parents, and she feared the process of disconnection, I believe. And so she ended up leaving Scientology. And Tom Cruise, ironically, who had been introduced to Scientology by Mimi Rogers, he divorced her. And I think it's fair to say that the reason, or at least it's been reported that the reason behind each of his three divorces has been Scientology. Mimi Rogers left. Nicole Kidman wouldn't go all in. Katie Holmes wanted to protect her child from Scientology. Tom Cruise's only biological child, Surrey Cruise. So what has happened with Tom Cruise is an interesting thing. Here's this man who is a very accomplished person, very successful, arguably brilliant when it comes to producing movies, understanding, you know, what are the vehicles that he wants to back. People often call him the last big movie star in the world. But if you look at his personal life, how has Scientology affected that? He doesn't seem to have a relationship with his daughter Suri. His two adopted children with Nicole Kidman are involved in Scientology, but they have largely been separated from Nicole Kidman, who is very careful what she says about Scientology in order to preserve her relationship with her two adopted children. So. So even though you can look at Tom Cruise and say, what an incredible guy, incredibly successful, but Scientology has had an effect on him, and the effect has been three failed marriages, and that must be very painful for Tom Cruise. Also.

The recent relationship with the actress Anna De Armas apparently ended when he wanted her to become involved in Scientology. That's been reported. So to the extent that Scientology can be a negative influence in your personal life and cause divorces, family estrangements, that's. That's a problem that even the celebrities in Scientology deal with.

[Rob]

Yeah, makes sense. Yeah. I mean, it's. I've heard stories and the business model of when they get so much intel from you in your personal life, mistakes you made, that when you want to leave, it's a Very difficult thing to do. But that business model of confession is a business model from the Catholic Church. It's actually, if you think about where.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Does confessions go to, if you're a Catholic and you're confessing, you're. There's a curtain. You don't know who the priest is. On the other side, the priest has quite a few.

[Rob]

Catholic.

[Rick Allen Ross]

No, I am not. I'm Jewish. So a Catholic priest has.

You know, ethical standards that he must adhere to. He cannot reveal a confession.

[Rob]

Still a human being. He's a sinner.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yeah, but. But let's. Let's contrast that with what Scientologists do, which is auditing. And this is a form of what they call spiritual counseling. So you're sitting across the table from your confessor or your auditor. You are holding two metal cans connected by wires to a box called an E meter, which is actually what could be seen as part of a polygraph. It measures nervous tension in your hands, and the needle moves when you're nervous. So you're being asked questions by the auditor about your personal life, your business life, whatever. And he has the advantage of not only looking you in the eye and reading your body language and so forth, but seeing on the E meter when you are nervous. And so at that point, when he sees, oh, the needle's moving.

[Rob]

So this is confessions with the use of technology.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yes. And then drilling down into whatever makes you nervous, supposedly to help you, but also this is revealing your secrets, revealing your inner life and your private life. And then they're taking notes that go into a folder that might be called your pre. Clear folder or. Or the records of Scientology. And routinely, people that become involved in Scientology sign releases regarding their records and so forth. So Scientology, then, they've. They've got the goods on you. They know about what makes you tick.

[Rob]

It's an organized form of confessions.

[Rick Allen Ross]

It's organized in a methodical way, and there are copious notes and records that can be used ultimately to your detriment.

[Rob]

But it's confessions.

[Rick Allen Ross]

It. It is confession, but I. I would call it more like an interrogation.

I would. I would liken it to cousins, though.

[Rob]

Right? Can. Confessions and interrogation. If they're asking you a question, you know, I understand. Like, you can even. You can ask people that have left religions of what they were uncomfortable with, because there was a church in LA called the Los Angeles Church of Christ. Oh, yeah, And Los Angeles Church of Christ. A guy named Edward once came up to me, and I was introduced to it by a guy named Fernando, who was one of My groomsmen, good guy. He says, come meet this guy named Edward. I go meet the guy Edward, nice guy. And he meets my girlfriend, and he starts asking me questions. He says, so when's the last time you guys had sex? And I said, probably 30 minutes ago, prior to meeting with you. And he says, really? I said, yeah. He says, you know, you're going to hell. I said, what's your point? Where are you going with this? Says, well, I'm just telling you, you're gonna go to hell. I said. I said, I already know I'm going to hell. What's the purpose of me meeting with you? Like, I'm trying to see if I have a shot at going to heaven. What's the. Anyway, so we start kind of going through the process, and it was such a controlled environment. And Fernando was dating a girl. I won't say the girl's name.

[Rick Allen Ross]

That.

[Rob]

That relationship ended up very nasty because she was fully in that he had to do certain things that he didn't want to do that he was forced to do. That he. Anyways, long story short, can you find out who was the pastor? Was it a guy named Kip McKean? Was it Steve Sapp or Kit McKean?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Well, Kip McKean was at the top. And eventually he would step down from leadership, right?

[Rob]

And he came up and he said, I've been wrong, what I've been saying. One of the guys gets up, actually, it's Steve Sapp. Can you type in Los Angeles Church of Christ and type in Steve Sapp?

[Rick Allen Ross]

But this was actually called the International Church of Christ, not to be confused, by the way, with the United Church of Christ, which is a mainline denomination, or the Independent Churches of Christ, which this group broke away from. So Kip McKean started this group back in the 70s with just a handful of people in Massachusetts. And at its highest point, it's estimated that There were about 250,000 members worldwide.

[Rob]

They had Hollywood, they had celebrities, actors. I would go in there, I'm like, holy moly. They got everybody.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yeah. And it was all based on a concept of discipleship in which every member was assigned a discipling partner. And there was an ascending hierarchy with Kip McKean at the top, the one person who wasn't being discipled. And they worshiped him as a kind of prototype of the perfect Christian. And they also believed that every other Christian church was lost, only their church.

[Rob]

The only way to go to heaven.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Is through their church, under their leadership.

[Rob]

That's right.

[Rick Allen Ross]

And so when you see a Christian church that is saying, look, I'm not just saying that Christianity is the way. I'm saying that Christianity writ large is not the way. It is my organization that I run, that you must belong to in order to be saved. And that is what Kip McKean taught until he stepped down. Now he has restarted recently, and he again has followers, not very many. And the IOC, as it's often called the International Church of Christ, is now greatly diminished. I. I don't know how many members, but I would speculate 50,000 or less. So they've. They've toppled quite a bit. But when they were in their heyday, I was doing inner goodness. I was doing interventions to get people out.

[Rob]

I was talking to my friend. I'm like, buddy, I don't know. This doesn't. This doesn't sound like a good church you're a part of. He says, no, you don't understand. I said, all right. I mean, do your thing. But this is why I don't want to go to church, because of churches like this. They were very good, though. Very organized. Oh, very systematic.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Very much so. Very much so. And I once did a news program with Fox News and producers for Fox News infiltrated In the late 90s, the church in Atlanta, Georgia, and they actually were able to get recordings of what that discipleship was like and how they would talk to you. And specifically, they're training, and they're saying to someone, you need to consider leaving your boyfriend. They're telling a female producer at Fox because he isn't coming along with the program, and therefore, you need to get rid of him.

And that kind of inner discussion that is not heard by the general public and not known when you become involved with the church is what really makes it tick, that kind of control. And I can remember I was retained by Fox as an analyst and consultant, and the producers would actually call me to be debriefed, because even though they knew that the group was a cult, they would say to me, rick, I feel like I'm getting taken in. I feel like I'm starting to become a believer. Help me here. What's wrong with what they're saying with these guys? Yeah, and so I had.

[Rob]

They were good.

[Rick Allen Ross]

They were very Good. I did 80 interventions.

[Rob]

Did you find sexual things? Did you find. Because I didn't find anything there, like the adulation and the sexual stuff. I didn't see the sexual stuff at all. So they were all actually very good people.

[Rick Allen Ross]

The leaders were. Were living large. A lot of the leaders financial, the finances, which were expensive.

[Rob]

Well, if you take the three, the cash, the adulation and the sexual. I didn't see the sexual. The adulation I saw. I know nothing about the cash because I wasn't at the higher up level. I was in my early 20s.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Let me just say that when Kip McKean stepped down, he did so for sins in his life that remain undisclosed. So I don't know what that involved. If was it he, he wasn't faithful to his wife, he was excessively controlling, he used money in a questionable way. I don't know. He did not disclose. And certainly there were wonderful people that were involved in the icoc. And I think that's part of the phenomenon or the situation you're in in a destructive cult. You're in this group and the people around you are very idealistic. They're very positive because they believe that the group is good. And they're. And they're there feeling that they're.

They'Re promoting something that is positive, that is good for people. And so you are mistaken by these people around you. You look at them and they're smiling and they're loving and they're kind and you think to yourself, this is a great group. But if you sat with Kip McKean in a situation where he had to answer for himself, you probably would say, what the heck am I in here? And so many people, when they leave cults, they leave because something happened. There was a revelation, there was something shocking that they witnessed that was not according to what the group said they were about and they were disturbed by it, or they're just plain exhausted, worn out from working so hard for the group and they leave. And I think that many people when they leave, leave thinking, well, there's something wrong with me, I'm ashamed of myself, I failed, I let God down.

Etc. And they don't really understand. No, it wasn't about me doing something wrong or me being to blame. It was the group. And that the group had predatory practices and that the group leadership wasn't ethical. And there were conflicts that I had as a person wanting to be ethical and reasonable with what I was being told to do in the group. And so I think for everyone that leaves a group, you have to go through a process of unpacking your experience, looking at it, understanding it. And I would say it's very similar to being in an abusive, controlling relationship. Initially you fall in love. The person who is the abusive partner is very effusive and they Tell you how much they love you. And you go through this honeymoon period. But then comes the abuse. And you, you don't want to believe it. And the. And your partner is telling you it's your fault, it's your fault. Why did you make me have a meltdown? Why did you make me hit you? I did it because of your behavior. And so the cult member feels the same way. And I know, I know that people often say about women that are in abusive, controlling relationships, well, you know, love is blind. But when the perpetrator, the partner is. Is constantly manipulating you and there's all this smoke and mirrors, how can you see clearly? And it's the same way with a cult. They're not giving you accurate information. They're playing with your head, they're gaslighting you. How can you think clearly when they don't let you.

[Rob]

Yeah, both ways. By the way, I've seen guys also caught up with a controlling woman. I mean, it's very easy to always just say men. I saw a guy that, he lost himself, married a girl. And afterwards I'm like, buddy, you've lost yourself. I don't know what just happened to you. He's happily married now. He's got a beautiful family. But for about three years nobody could recognize him. He was controlled by her, vice versa, of course. I've seen more stories with men than I've seen with women. It's two to one on a number of stories because men are more the aggressive, the assertive. But women have a way of controlling in a very different way. I just messaged my guy to see who we were talking about.

In regard to. Regarding. To this Kip guy from Los Angeles Church of Christ. This is a clip from 1993 where he is a CBS reporter. A reporter is trying to interview him and. Go ahead, Rob.

[Rick Allen Ross]

We found out that the man who some followers call God's greatest living treasure would be coming to this New York hotel for an annual meeting with his world sector leaders. Mr. McCain, I'm Trish Wood from Fifth Estate. I believe you were talking to our researcher on the phone. Could we ask you a couple of questions?

[Rob]

Well, you know, we have no comment.

[Rick Allen Ross]

I appreciate. Could you just maybe explain to us why so many of the ex members of your church are suggesting that there was mind control involved in their time in the church? Can you explain why people are saying that we have no comment this time. But the questions really are about you and your role in the leadership of the church. And many of the ex members would like to know why these things happened to them.

[Rob]

Well, I think you've talked to me, the ex members. So you had the information.

[Rick Allen Ross]

But they would like and I think some questions are appropriate for you to answer. Why are all these people suggesting that there was mind control being done to them while they were in your church, Mr. McCain?

[Rob]

So the question then becomes the following. It's easy to demonize these guys, right? To me sometimes. You know how.

They say offense wins? You know, you have a lot of teams that have great regular season records and they suck in the playoffs because they're an offensive team with not a defensive, you know, strategy. And you'll see these football teams that were decent offense season but their defense was ridiculous. And in the playoffs they crush. I have four kids to me I like to play prevent, okay, preventative and what's the word? Anticipation. So I'd like to anticipate things that could potentially happening on ways for them to try to divide the family, on ways that people in the future will try to divide us or say things because, you know, all your care father cares about is this or you know, your brother is this and your sister is this. And they'll try to come in between them and you know, the goal is I want to keep the family. And I'll tell them you guys are the most important to each other. It's even more important in your relationship with me. You guys got to stay buddies forever because we're not going to be around. But you guys are going to be around. You guys got to stay strong. So you're giving them these messages, reaffirming messages for them to stay strong. So maybe give me. Because right now, first thing you talk about in the first two minutes when I ask you a question about Humberto who aspires to be a cult leader.

Which maybe he's changed his aspirations. Who knows, maybe he'll change his mind. He's probably very disappointed right now. Maybe even left for the day to call in sick. But so let's just say for those.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Who.

[Rob]

Are going through it in the first two minutes. You said social media today are cult like leaders, right? They're using all these things, give me the defense. How do I know if I have been infected? I am in the delusional community. Because it's always the other person that's part of a cult, right? It's never us. It's always the other person that's delusional. It's always the other person that's brainwashed, not us. You know, Rick, it would never happen to you because you're, you're a guy that deprograms people. You're there. It can never happen to you, right? Never can never happen to me. I'm successful in this. What can you tell people to anticipate signs, to not fall for the trap?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Well, first of all, are you becoming involved in a group that has a leader, that is worshiped by the group? I mean, are they constantly talking about the leader? Are they extolling how wonderful the leader is and how is that leader accountable? What are the checks and balances in the organizational structure that address accountability? Is there financial transparency in the group? Do they disclose their. Their annual budget in detail, in which they explain all compensation paid out to whomever? And, and how do they regard people who have left? Do they. Do they say, oh, yeah, you know, so and so left, and we had coffee with. We still have coffee with him. We talk with him. Where. Or do they stigmatize people that leave and they're critical of them and they cut them off? And then what's happening to you? What's happening to you? Are you becoming socially isolated? Are you withdrawing from old friends and family? Are you becoming preoccupied with the group? Because a typical church or organization would say, hey, you got to have a life outside of our church, outside of our organization. Sure, you belong to our club, our church, but you need to also spend time with your family and have a balanced, healthy life. So is the group drawing you into imbalance, or are they also encouraging you to have a balanced life? And how do they view other organizations? Do they negatively characterize them, or do they have a sense of community? For example, a church that says, yeah, we work with other churches to feed the homeless or to help the elderly, or we do community projects, and how are they regarded? And if you go online and you do a search looking for any information about this group, what is their history? Have they been controversial? What was the controversy about? What are people talking about? Have they been sued by former members? Have. Have there been criminal prosecutions? Many of these groups that I deal with, they have a troubled history. And I think before you become committed, before you become embedded, find it all out. And a healthy group with healthy leadership will not question that. They will say, sure, check us out. Whatever we're we are, we have a. Here's our budget. This is how our bylaws hold our leadership accountable, through our incorporation. And you realize that they have. They're not hiding anything from you, and they're being forthcoming. And, and how is criticism regarded in the, in the group when you Go to group meetings. If someone says something critical about a practice of the organization or group, how is that, how is that taken? Is it seen as being really negative and oh, you're a suppressive person and there's something wrong with you? Or are they saying, well, gee, that's interesting, we can use that, you know, because we, we have room to grow, room to evolve, and we like feedback from members that help us to make this organization a better organization. Or are people being attacked for criticizing? So if you see that dynamic, that's a warning flag. And there are others that I've outlined and you look for those and then you know what you're dealing with.

[Rob]

So are you, are you active on X? Are you active on Twitter?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yeah.

[Rob]

Okay.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yeah.

[Rob]

So today's political climate is a very. If I were to ask you right now, in your 20s or your 30s, okay, who would you have said was somebody that you looked at that influenced you politically or philosophically? What names would you give in your 20s or your 30s?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Well, Barry Goldwater. Okay. I grew up in Arizona and Barry Goldwater.

[Rob]

Wow, what a name. Barry Goldwater.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yeah, he was, his father was Jewish and the original family name was Gold Vassar and they created a department store in Arizona called Goldwaters. And of course, Barry Goldwater went on to become a United States Senator. He ran for President. I greatly admired him. And who else would you say?

[Rob]

Well, I think that's a pretty heavy name.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yeah, I would think.

Well, the first time I voted, I think I voted for Richard Nixon. But he ended up being a disappointment, you know, when he left office and.

[Rob]

You were saying, meaning he should have never left office. That's what you're saying?

[Rick Allen Ross]

No, I'm saying that there was a scandal, he decided to leave office. I think he probably made the right decision. In fact, Barry Goldwater, I think, talked with him at one point and said, if this goes to impeachment, we don't have the votes to stop it. You're going to lose. And so Nixon decided to leave the White House and he resigned and I think later apologized belatedly for some of the things that he did in the David Frost interviews. So I would say when Richard Nixon was president and he opened the door to China, he created the epa, he was very anti communist and he had his famous debates with Khrushchev. I greatly respected Richard Nixon and he was also a self made man who came from nothing and made a great career for himself. He was a vice president under Eisenhower, who I greatly respected as a great general and a great President. And so I think that growing up, that was. Those were very important figures in my life. And also John F. Kennedy and the way in which he led the country. At one point.

That he inspired you.

[Rob]

He sold a vision to you. Yeah, we're gonna land on the moon. We're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. It was a inspirational guy. But here's kind of where I'm going with Barry Goldwater, by the way. Some will say he's the reason why Republicans lost the African American vote in 1960. I think, if I'm not mistaken, 64% of African Americans voted Democrat. The rest was Republican. After Barry Goldwater In 64, 92% of African Americans voted Democrat, and they lost him. And the story is two different things. Of course, one of the things has to do with the African Americans, but the other part is also MLK's wife. When they wanted to meet with Nixon, Nixon's camp never got back to him. John F. Kennedy's camp did. From that moment on, they said, we're going to be voting Democrat because Kennedy heard us out, but Nixon didn't. And then African Americans have been voting Democrats since then. The stories, when you hear about it, you read about it, they're documented, they're all over the place. But who did you fall for that spooked you and you were disappointed afterwards, outside of Nixon, who was your guy when you were watching and you're like, oh, my God, this guy's. And this is when you were impressionable. Think from 16 to 28. Who was the person where. Because I'm thinking for myself as well, with names, right. Who did you fall for where you're like, man. But later on, like, what? I fell for this trap. Did you have anybody.

[Rick Allen Ross]

The name that comes to mind for me is Nixon, because I can remember when Watergate started, I felt that he was being persecuted, that he was being wrongfully harassed, and I felt very strongly about it. But as Watergate unfolded and it unfolded, it, you know, it was on television. And so I watched the hearings, and I. And I remember thinking, how can this be? And it was a very gut, wrenching, difficult thing, because here was this man that I had voted for and I had believed in, and it. It turned out he had made some. Some pretty bad calls, which he would admit himself later.

[Rob]

Did it cause you to no longer want to vote that way?

[Rick Allen Ross]

No. Okay. No, I. I continued to vote for Barry Goldwater, and then later I voted for John McCain, who I greatly admired as well. I think Arizona has produced. This is My state call that I. That I grew up in. Though I spent quite a bit of time in New Jersey before moving back to Arizona. Arizona. Given our population, we've produced some really big people that have been very prominent in American history.

[Rob]

You know who else said that in his book? Rob, can you pull up Billy Graham leadership? Type in Billy Graham leadership. There's a few questions I still got before we wrap, but we got time. Yeah, that one right there. I think it's in chapter 11 where he talks about betrayal. Can you. Can you go back and type in the leadership secrets of Billy Graham and then type in betrayal. Type in betrayal. I think it's chapter 11 or chapter 12.

Check to see which one it is.

PDF. Which chapter is the one where he talks about betrayal? Keep going down to see the.

Okay, chapter 12 is betrayal. In chapter 12 of that book, you know who he talks about that betrayed him and let him down? Nixon to Billy Graham was also Nixon because it was the first time that he got behind a president, I think. Rob, can you control F. Nixon and see if that's what he talks about? I don't want to misquote him. There you go. Yep. One of Bill Graham was painful, experimental was filmed and betrayed by Nixon during the Watergate scandal. Graham had close relation with Nixon and felt deeply affected by the revelation of Nixon's true character, which contrasted sharply with the image he held of him. Okay.

So how old were you at the time when you went through this?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Teenager.

[Rob]

Okay, teenager. Perfect. That's great, because bring that teenage Rick Allen Ross today.

And back then it was news once a day, whatever, six o', clock, eight o'. Clock. I don't know what it was, but I was in Iran, so I wouldn't know. Okay. I don't even know if I was born yet. I'm born 78, so let's just say teenager. You're getting the news once a day now. Bring that Rick Allen ross today. Teenager, 16, 17 years old. Twitter, YouTube, rumble, Instagram, TikTok. How the hell do you know if you're falling for this trap with some different people that are out there with.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Messaging, the way in which they respond to criticism? I think that if they are a reasonable leader, a good leader, that they will respond to criticism thoughtfully. They will answer directly about what they're being accused of or what issues are being raised, and they will put it to rest and they will provide meaningful documentation and they will deal with it. I think what disappointed me with Richard Nixon at one point was that he was attacking the messenger and he Wasn't dealing with the story itself. I mean, what happened? Did they. Were you involved in this break in? Were you involved in the COVID up? I think there are some questions as to how deeply Nixon was involved in the actual break in, but no question about how he would eventually be involved in the COVID up and other things. So I think the way in which a leader responds to criticism is a good.

A good way to understand who and what they are. Barry Goldwater, for example, he would acknowledge criticism, he would deal with it head on. I think he, he was, he was a really good man, in my opinion. Barry Goldwater, did you ever meet him? I never met him, but I met members of his family and at one time, you know, there were people in my community, the Jewish community, that were saying that Barry Goldwater was not good to the Jewish people, that he was somehow they implied, you know, he was anti Jewish or whatever. Nothing could be further from the truth. His best friend was a Jewish man that he grew up with, Harry Rosenzweig, who at one time was a leader in my own synagogue congregation. And he greatly admired Barry Goldwater as well. I think that what is so important is to not.

Characterize people who don't agree with you as being somehow evil or terrible, but instead looking at what they have to say and considering it and then taking it apart and explaining why you're opposed to it.

[Rob]

Yes, so. So some younger influencers today on X would say.

You can't criticize Jews, for instance, okay? And you're going to be called anti Semitic, you're going to be called this, you're going to be called that. And for many years that was scary to have that, you know, label which today younger kids, social media, they no longer fear that label that adults feared 10, 20, 30 years ago.

[Rick Allen Ross]

I think the most important thing that I have come to realize as a Jew is that if you disagree with the political policies of the state of Israel, that does not mean that you are anti Jewish. That it is possible to disagree with the government of Israel and have political disagreements, but not be anti Jewish.

[Rob]

So at what point does one graduate to actually be an anti Semitic?

[Rick Allen Ross]

When you begin to say, for example, that Jews are involved in a global conspiracy, they're linked to the Illuminati and whatever, and you go along with that kind of a narrative where you're characterizing an entire people negatively, you're not just disagreeing with the policies of the government of the State of Israel. And likewise, I find myself in an interesting position because there are many young Jewish people who greatly object to what is going on in Gaza. And, and I don't agree with them. I think that what Hamas has demonstrated, and they are very cult like in their indoctrination process and their extreme leadership, what they demonstrated to the Israelis is no matter what we do, we really can't trust you. And because you attacked unprovoked, you murdered all these people, you took hostages. And at the same time we were hoping that by you getting money for infrastructure and everything in Gaza that we could somehow come to terms with you in a peaceful way. And Hamas struck out and then the Israelis felt, well, we can't really trust you. And they took this action to be essentially a declaration of war against Israel and they went after them. And, and there are many young people that are Jews that are on college campuses across the country and who feel very negatively about the way in which Israel has responded to Hamas and how the collateral damage that is all of these Palestinian people who are completely innocent and had nothing to do with supporting that and who, many of whom have themselves doubts about Hamas and grievances with Hamas are suffering disproportionately. And so it's a very. And I think what you have to do in situations like that is not broadly characterize an entire people in a negative way, be it the Palestinians or be it the Jewish people. And you can't conclude that all Jewish people support the state of Israel because many Jewish people don't support certain actions of the state of Israel. And then you have to recognize that the Israelis themselves are arguing, for example, as to whether or not the ultra Orthodox will serve in the military, which is a very contentious issue right now in Israel. So I think that cults and cult like thinking tends to paint everything black and white, no shades of gray. And our lives are often in shades of gray. Much more nuanced than you know what.

[Rob]

Conclusion I've come up with. Here's a conclusion I've come up. And by the way, I want to ask you about a couple cults with kids. Seven, six, four, a few things before we wrap up, but here's a conclusion I've come up with. Somebody may listen to you and say what are you talking about, Rick?

Jews don't doctrinate and they don't send all their kids to Israel and they don't ask them to go into idf. And AIPAC doesn't recruit people to bring them to Israel and Israel doesn't prevent negative media in Israel. What are you talking about? Like it's full on cult, like of what Israel is Doing to convert. Let me. Let me just finish and then you'll see where I'm going with this. Okay, so. And then you're going to come back and say, well, no, because of this, because of that. And I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but what I'm trying to go to is the following. Here's where I'm going to. Where I'm going to is the following. Everybody is an occult, including you. I think you're in a cult. I think I'm in a cult. I think you're also cult leader, because I think as a cult leader, you're leading the culture of people who want to expose evil, people who do harm to others. So you have a following of people that can't wait to see who you're going to take down next. And you have a cult like following where people follow you because they're like, I can't wait to see him take. Who was the guy that was getting the pedophiles with pizza that would go to a kid's house and he would do the interviews and he had a big show. Rob, I think Chris Hansen. Chris Hansford's like, oh, my God, who's he going to get next? Who's he going to get next? Right. We had him on the podcast once. So to me.

I don't know if like my position, I lived in Iran 11 years, almost 11 years. So I saw what it was like to live with Hezbollahs when you're a Christian family. I witnessed it, I lived it. And in Germany, at a refugee camp, I was with Afghanis, Pakistanis, everybody that was leaving a Muslim, you know, driven country to escape to some somewhere that gave them freedoms, but they were also Muslim themselves. So I've witnessed it firsthand. And I've spent a lot of time with Jews, spent a lot of time with Scientology. You notice I was complimenting of Scientologists. People get upset he's shilling for Scientology. I've never had a bad experience with a Scientologist ever. I've never had a bad experience with Jews ever. Do I think Scientologists are part of a cult? Yes. Do I think so? Are Jews? Yes. Do I think they're very proud of their background? Yes. Do I think I am as well? Yes. The crossing of the line to me is when it becomes about, with the words, you said, the cash, the adulation, the sexual favor. Take the sexual favor out the cash. Okay. Yeah. Some of these guys are doing it for cash. Okay. You know, if you. What percentage of billionaires In America are Jewish. 9.6%. Oh my God. But what percentage the world population is Jewish? 15 million on 8 and a half billion. Where are you at? You're not, you're not. You point something. Percent. Small, small community. It's a very small community. So and so it's, it's more. My, my position with this is more, let's stop acting like we don't all admire somebody. Let's stop acting like we don't have somebody. Like Nixon gets, you know, two sides of the story. There's a part of Nixon that he did a lot of good. The other side of Nixon is he empowered China to be able to equalize Russia because USSR was so powerful, they needed somebody. China, that was number eight, number nine economy to come and take after Russia, that was number two or number three because they were a threat and Russia wasn't negotiating. So they were using triangular diplomacy with Kissinger to bring that guy up. And then boom. And then we got off the gold standard. All the rich get richer, poor get poor, the middle income's getting destroyed. It's because of Nixon. If we didn't get off a goal, we probably wouldn't be in of situation we're in today. The moment we got off the go, then it's all about what, hey, trust me, this is the American dollar. You can trust us. You can trust us. But then Nixon also did a lot of good stuff. So to sit there and see both sides tear apart anything I just said?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Well, I just want to focus on a couple of things, please. First of all, deception. Is there a bait and switch con with the group that you're involved in? For example, I went to religious school. I was bar mitzvahed. I went to Hebrew school. There was no deception. What, what my family believed or thought I was going to go through in indoctrination is in fact what happened. It wasn't like a group like Kip McKeon, which we discussed the icock where there was this mask, we're just Christians, when that isn't really what they're all about. And the indoctrination was locking you into a discipleship system controlled by Kip McKean. That was not the case in my religious education. And I think that, for example, when, when a Catholic priest or a nun is expected to take vows and they become involved in a religious order, they know what they're getting involved in. And the order explains to them, this is what we're all about. These are the sacrifices that you will have to make. Celibacy, Vow of silence.

A devotion system that they may have. So is the group deceptive? Is there a mask that they wear to the public in order to pull people in? And then once you become involved, it's something completely different. Is it a bait and switch conversation? And then second, what I would say is I really don't care how a group believes. They can believe whatever they want, but they may not behave in whatever way they wish under the guise of beliefs. So, for example, when they cross the line criminally and they're doing things to defraud people, abuse people, et cetera, that's where they step over the line and it becomes an issue of criminal prosecution. And I've been involved in a number of cases, testified as an expert witness. And again, it's not about belief, it's about behavior. So we may not like what another group believes, but as long as they behave in a way that is not criminal and they are not hurting people, then we can say, well, I don't agree with your beliefs, but you're entitled to them. So if they want to believe that, you know, Scientology is largely kind of a science fiction space opera, their belief system, you know, Zenu and, and. And intergalactic, we're all being indoctrinated.

[Rob]

That's kind of what I'm trying to say.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yeah.

[Rob]

And the part. And the part that we have to be careful with is where I'm trying to get from you is I'm trying to say, at what point.

You know, at what point is it a. Does it go into a bad thing? You said something earlier. The organization lacks accountability. Right. There's no open financial where, you know, employees or people are, what's going on with the money? Where did the money go to? People don't know the finances. So, hey, be open about where you're at financially with the company. Lack of accountability, force pushing you away from your own family. You know, some of those things I'm tracking with that. I'm with that part.

You know, but also at the same time, like you mentioned the organization earlier, I've never heard of it before. Love to whore. Lev Tahor. Am I saying it correctly?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Lev Tahor.

[Rob]

Lev Tahor.

[Rick Allen Ross]

It's a Hebrew for essentially the pure ones.

[Rob]

Yeah. And this was a Jewish cult, right, that you were talking about earlier?

[Rick Allen Ross]

It was a spin off from ultra orthodox. It was started by a man named Schlomo Helbrens in Israel, and then he came to the US went to Canada, ended up dying in Mexico.

[Rob]

What does Guatemala have to do with this?

[Rick Allen Ross]

They. They were constantly running from authorities and they would eventually end up in Guatemala and create a compound outside of Guatemala City. And the issue was not what they believed. The issue was how they behaved. So they were. They were having children as young as 12, married. They were abusing the little girls in the group. There was sexual abuse of little boys in the group by alleged against the leader Shlomo Helbrens. They weren't being properly fed, they weren't being receiving proper medical attention. They unearthed a child's body in the compound when they raided it and the children and I went through their testimonies because I prepared a report for the court. They were beaten brutally. The corporal punishment in the group was very excessive. And of course Hellbrands was a. Was a virtual dictator. And then his son who succeeded him occupied that same position. And I would work with children in the group and families affected by the group and see how anyone that left was labeled in a very negative way and you had to let go of them, disregard them and so on. So again, it wasn't about what the group believed. There were beliefs of the group about how women had to dress, that they were different and more extreme than even the most orthodox Jews. The issue was how do they behave? How are the children being treated? Are they being treated abusively, illegally, criminally? And so the group was investigated again and again. And it would flee from one country to another to. To evade those investigations. And the issue for them, they would say, oh, we're being persecuted, we're being persecuted. No, they were being prosecuted because of their behavior and it was criminal.

[Rob]

Yeah. And this guy even went to. Because when you're saying 12 year olds, I mean that's normal in many Muslim countries. You hear stories about that. Right. And there. So they even seeked. He wrote a letter to Ali Khamenei. Did you know about this or no?

[Rick Allen Ross]

No.

[Rob]

Yeah, apparently he. He wrote a letter to Ali Khomeini seeking asylum. The son did. After.

Left to whore the founder died. So leadership shifted to figures including Nachman Hellbrands, his son and Mayor Rosner. Beginning in 2018, 2019, their leadership attempted to seek political asylum in Iran. Out of all the places, why would you want to go to Iran? And wrote letters pledging allegiance to Ayatollah Khamenei.

Declared the desire to establish a leftover community under Iranian protection were intercepted while trying to travel through Central America towards Iran. US court filing later revealed that they attempted to smuggle children internationally. Planned to flee to Kurdish controlled region en route to Iran. Held an ideology that revered Iran as safe haven. Can you imagine the link between this Jewish organization that felt safe going to Iran because they had younger children, that they felt safer over there?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Now, this you would call a cult, most definitely. And most recently, there were a number of children that were taken out of Guatemala, and they were then apprehended by the police in Colombia. So you have a friend of Columbia. This group has a history of evading investigations of child abuse by moving from country to country. And again, whatever the group says, the leadership says is right is right. Whatever the group says is wrong is wrong, regardless if it conflicts with the law. And this is the issue, really. I mean, this is the difference between what could be seen as a benign culture and a destructive cult. Is the group criminally hurting people? How is the group hurting people? What is it doing its behavior? And of course, what Lev Tahor would say is, we're doing what the Torah teaches. They would wrap themselves in Judaism, the Torah, the Talmud, whatever, and say, this is what we're about. Well, speaking as a Jewish and someone who has worked with the ultra Orthodox community to help children escape Lev Tahor and be reunited with relatives where they are safe, they're not practicing ultra Orthodox Judaism. I've met with rabbis that are leaders of the Hasidic communities, and they abhor what Lev Tahor has done, and they have supported helping these children. In fact, one of the children that I worked with was later kidnapped by Lev Tahor. At the time, she was 14. And Nachman Hellbrands is now in prison. And that is one of the reasons he's being held as a prisoner, is that he flagrantly broke the law. Well, see, these groups that have often been called cults or destructive cults.

Yeah, I think that might be Shlomo Hellbrand's or one of the leadership.

So.

Oh, excuse me, Nachman Hellbrens. So what happened was the leaders were being held accountable for their decisions, how they affected families, how they affected the lives of children. And it wasn't about their beliefs, because the ultra Orthodox Hasidic rabbis I've spoken with would agree with some of their beliefs, but not their beliefs regarding how they treated children or for that matter, how they often treated women. And so groups like Lev Tahor hide behind the mask of religion. But the question is, how do they behave? Do they behave criminally? Do they hurt people? What are they doing to the children? What are they doing? Not what are they praying, but what are they doing? And so the issue of accountability is about behavior, not about belief. And I would not propose that groups be labeled destructive cults because of their beliefs, but rather because of their behavior and lack of accountability.

[Rob]

Got it. Makes sense. And I'm with that. But to me, a lot of times when you go through this, we ourselves forget that we also have an ideology and something that indoctrinated us. You know, you're not a Christian, you're a Jew. Why your parents probably were and your grandparents probably. So that's form of indoctrination.

[Rick Allen Ross]

But was it, but was it deceptive? And no, it's not deceptive.

[Rob]

No. Again, to me, that's like, I'm a Christian. Why am I a Christian? I went to Scientology. I went to Mormon church. I went and studied Gordon B. Hinckley wanted to find out what, why Mormons are so united with each other and why they work together. I wanted to find out what was going on with Seven Day Adventists. I wanted to find out. And then I went to non denomination. I was going to Los Angeles Church of Christ. I wonder God knows for how long. And I'm like, no, this is, I never got baptized there. I'm like, nope, this is not me. And then I found my home. And then it was a, a journey that I went through. But that is a form of indoctrination. The only part that it goes away is the deceptive part. And I'm going to bible study in 1999, 2000, 2001. And this one guy said something very powerful. He said, if you ever judge Christianity horizontally, you will always be disappointed. But if you judge it vertically, you will never be disappointed. Like, what is he talking about? Man fall. We sin, we are tempted, we do some stupid things. Everybody and anybody that acts like they walk on water, they're really hiding some stuff. It's typically the person that walks acts like their life is perfect. And then you dig deep. Like, whoa, I pushed a button, didn't I? So what's there?

[Rick Allen Ross]

So all of us act like the.

[Rob]

Other person's the bad guy. We all have some things. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about criminality. 12 year old girls, forget about it. There's not even a place for that. If you watch our podcast, we get in trouble for calling out certain communities that.

Practice certain behaviors like that. We're not for it. But to me, that's, that's a, that's the black and white that we have to be careful with. Meaning sometimes it's okay if somebody is. I, I don't mind the fact that my dad brainwashed me to Say man has to work hard, man has to have money that his own family doesn't know about, that when crisis happens, you can still protect them. A man who doesn't make money is not a real man. He's a weak man. He does stupid things. He has a hard time looking at his wife in his face, in her eyes, because he doesn't feel like he's a man. He's not a provider. A man has to protect. This is brainwashing, but I'm glad he washed my brain. And the detergent he used was good things, right? There's an element of the reaffirmation of some of these positive.

Affirmations that are good for you.

[Rick Allen Ross]

There's a difference between indoctrination and what could be called brainwashing or thought reform. There's a great book written about this called Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism by Robert J. Lifton, who died not too long ago. Lifton interviewed POWs in North Korean prisoner camps or that had been interred in North Korean prisoner camps. And he laid out in the 22nd chapter of his book, Thought Reform, the psychology of totalism, how they were able to manipulate and change people. So one of the key elements.

[Rob]

Can you send that to me, Rob, please, please continue on this.

[Rick Allen Ross]

One of the key elements is, is there deception? Is there a bait and switch con? And is there a claim of what Lifton calls the sacred science that is that our ideology is faultless, we are faultless, we present it, it is perfect. You cannot question anything. When my dad raised me and he was a hard working plumbing contractor, and he raised me very similar to what you just described. If you don't provide for your family, if you don't live the right kind of life, you will be sorry. But my dad would often admit mistakes. He would say to me, you know, I trusted that general contractor he was supposed to pay me. He didn't. Our family is now suffering for it. And I learned I can't do that anymore. And likewise, my rabbi who mentored me in my early career, Rabbi Albert Plotkin, he was a liberal Democrat and he knew that I was a registered Republican and he recognized that that was different from him, that that was okay. He did not love that. He did not take me to task.

[Rob]

I love that.

[Rick Allen Ross]

And in fact, at one point, the leader of our congregation was a Barry Goldwater best friend, Harry Rosenzweig, who was very prominent in our community. And he also, he was, I think, a leader in the Republican Party of Arizona. So our rabbi could tolerate differences and he could Understand that people had different opinions. And one of the things that I think is so important for all of us is if someone thinks you're wrong, that doesn't mean they're brainwashed. If someone doesn't agree with you, that doesn't mean they're brainwashed. And you know, because families will come to me and I get calls and emails every day and people will say, oh, I think my kid is in a cult. I think my father's in a cult, I think my cousin's in a cult. And about half the time I'm telling them, no, that's not what's going on here. And just because you don't agree with your family member does not mean that they're brainwashed. It just means they have a differing opinion. And I give them the criteria that they can determine that with. And I can, and I can tell them, I cannot deprogram your family member because your family member wasn't programmed in the first place. This is who they are. These are their sincerely held beliefs. What we're looking at in deprogramming is someone whose beliefs have been radically changed by an authoritarian leader using identifiable techniques, of course, of persuasion and thought reform. And in my book, I explain all of that in a chapter titled Cult Brainwashing in which I incorporate LIFT and Edgar Schein, who taught at MIT and wrote the book Coercive Persuasion. And you look at these techniques and ask yourself, you know, if it quacks like a duck and it walks like a duck, maybe it's a duck. But if it doesn't fit that profile, admit to yourself, okay, my family member has peculiar beliefs that I don't agree with. I think they're nuts, but that doesn't mean they're brainwashed and that doesn't mean they're in a cult. And let's not use the word cult indiscriminately. I would say there are destructive cults, benign cults. I would say there is such a thing as a cult following that would not fit the profile of a destructive culture. And we need to make those distinctions.

[Rob]

I agree. I totally agree. By the way, are you following anything with Diddy?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yeah, I followed it a bit, yeah.

[Rob]

Would you put him as a cuz a lot of the stuff you talk about, Cash, he wanted to make the money. Adulation. He had to be in every music video, sexual favors. Are you kidding me? He did that with men, women, you know, by force. You know, all this other stuff. How do you profile Diddy in regards to being a cult like leader?

[Rick Allen Ross]

I Don't necessarily see him as a cult leader, but I see him as using cult like techniques of coercive control to dominate and manipulate women. And in particular there were various women that talked about their life with him and what it was like. I believe there was one video of him dragging a woman, beating a woman. Yeah. And. And so, so I think what you could honestly say about him, he fits the profile of an abusive, controlling partner and that the women that he controlled were somewhat isolated and manipulated by him and made to feel that whatever bad happened to them was somehow their fault and that he was not to blame. And so he kind of follows in the footsteps of O.J. simpson in his relationship with Nicole Brown Simpson, which was very similar where the woman was degraded, the woman was socially isolated, the woman was mistreated, but lived in that kind of an abusive situation. Another example would be Ike Turner, Tina Turner, which has always fascinated me because Tina Turner as we saw her in her later career was such a strong woman and such a dynamic woman. But what I've seen over and over in my casework with families that I've worked with, interventions that I've done, trials that I've testified in, is that even the most independent, thinking, intelligent person can step by step slowly but surely be pulled into this kind of trap. And I've often said that people are tricked and then trapped by abusive controlling partners.

[Rob]

I like that. Tricked and trapped.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Tricked and trapped.

[Rob]

Not. I like that. I, I like the structure of the way you're saying it. Tricked and trapped makes sense.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Tricked and trapped. First that makes sense for this guy into becoming involved. Thinking probably that Cassie felt he, he loves me, he's going to take care of me. He's a wonderful man, he's very talented, I admire him. And then it changes and morphs into something entirely different.

[Rob]

Yeah, she was 19 apparently when he got a hold of her and the rest is history. By the way kids, I asked a couple of the guys here, one of our guys said Pat, you may want to ask him about.

Seven six, four come C O M. It's a self harming cult group started in 2021 that decentralized. Are you following what's going to. They're making kids kill. You know it's some.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yeah, it's radical child there. There are leaders now being charged with child pornography.

[Rob]

Who is the leader by the way? I can't find the leader.

[Rick Allen Ross]

There was one man arrested that there were claims that he might be the leader or that he is alleged to be the leader.

[Rob]

Bradley Guy.

Bradley Cadenhead yeah, yeah, I think that.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Would be the person they arrested that they characterized as being in a leadership position. And a number of people have been arrested. And what's interesting about this group is how they recruited young people online and that some of those people were in the gaming, video gaming community and that adjacent to that there would be areas online where they would recruit these people, these minor children and then they would get incriminating information, they would coerce them and basically exploit them. So this is typical of what we're seeing online. And so if someone is a parent today, how much more challenging it is than in my father's day when there was just a telephone on the wall, there was no Internet. Today your kid can be on a smartphone in their bedroom texting with a cult leader or cult members and being recruited and indoctrinated in a cult online while they're in your own house. And I have been involved in getting minor kids out of groups like that.

[Rob]

Yeah. So the guy's name Rob if you want to pull him up is Prasan Nepal. If you can pull up Prasan. Because I said what does 764 come from? Apparently it's the area code that it started from San Mateo, California but this is the guy.

Who got arrested. His name online handle is known as Trippy 20 year old man from High Point, North Carolina who has been arrested and charges won the leaders of 764 Global Child exploit exploitation and violent extremist network. The network is a nihilistic violent extreme group. I think they just got categorized as a terrorist group if I'm not mistaken. Nepal is accused of being a leader and a founder of the core subgroup. He allegedly admitted to creating and still controlling the network.

Arrested 4-22-2025 he is charged with operating international and international child exploitation enterprises. Co defendant Leonidas Varajianis known as War was arrested in Greece. Can you look that guy up? So wait a minute, this is international. So they're all over the world working together to get kids. What a mess. Grooming and extortion. The group allegedly targets vulnerable minors including those with depression or mental illness and groom them to produce sexual explicit and self harm content guidebook the defendants are accused of creating a guide for aspiring 764 members coercion and violence. Nepal and Varajinas allegedly ordered victims to perform acts of self mutually mutilation online sexual acts and harm to animals often livestreamed for the group's content and as form of discipline. Wow. What, what, what do you tell parents? What do you think? Because, you know, this whole new thing, six, seven, this whole thing that they're doing. I don't know if you heard about the 6, 7. Are you following it or no? I can't see you going like 6, 7, or whatever they do, but these kids are doing this thing called six, seven. Right. What do you tell parents, like, you know, that are seeing their kids behave a little bit weird? What feedback do you give to parents?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Well, I think that parents have to be vigilant, that they have to understand where is my kid going at online, and they may want to track where they're going online and look where they're going online. And they may even want to restrict their use of the Internet.

And their access to technology that puts them on the Internet until they're old enough to better understand what's involved. You know, there's nothing wrong with video games per se, but we have to recognize that they can be used in a negative way by cults to recruit people, which they have been, and that people are being young children, minor children are being recruited online. So if you're a parent, this is very challenging, it's very daunting. But you're going to have to, you know, be hands on and understand exactly what's going on in your child's life. Who are they visiting, what websites, what, what videos are they watching on YouTube, what's going on? And if you see a change in behavior.

They seem to become more isolated, they're moving away from you, they're becoming sullen, they're staying in their room for long periods of time. That these kind of changes may signal outside influence online. And you need to be vigilant as a parent.

[Rob]

Yeah, it's a strange time right now because.

Kids are being targeted and if you're not too careful, the other day I'm talking to my kids and I said, so by what age you think we should get you guys social media? What age do you think I'll approve? And I'm just kind of trying to see what they'll say. And my youngest says, I think you'll probably let us use social media at 16. And then my older, my other one says, I don't know if I need it till 18, just give it to us at 18. I manage all their other Instagram accounts, so I'm creating an Instagram account for all of them that I'm going to hand it to them at 18 years old. And you know, from there on you're an adult, but you get a head start and that is your Social media manager for now. I think it's so important to be involved. So important. If you're not, the other guys are watching. A famous pedophile interview came out. I don't know if you saw this guy or not, in a yellow shirt. And they asked him, who do you target? He says, I target any kid whose father is not involved. That guy right there. This guy right here, he flat out says, I target kids who don't have a strong father and don't have certain values, faith, values in their lives. Rob, let's finish up with this clip here.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Grooming.

I would check out their family situation.

[Rob]

I would check out their.

How well they were, you know, financially.

[Rick Allen Ross]

I would check out their social interaction with other kids. You know, when we were on the.

[Rob]

Ballparks or on gym floor, you know.

[Rick Allen Ross]

I would make sure which ones I wanted to molest. I would give them special attention, congratulate.

[Rob]

Them, talk to them. And I know that I would never be allowed to talk to anybody else.

[Rick Allen Ross]

You know, aside from everybody.

[Rob]

I would give them the attention that an official is not supposed to give anybody. And it made them feel like, wow, he's paying me attention.

It was a direct form of grooming.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Were there certain characteristics that you looked for in children before molesting them? In children, yes, but more. I also looked at their families. If I thought the father was a threat, bingo.

[Rob]

I would not approach the child. If I thought that the child had friends that he would tell, I would not approach him.

[Rick Allen Ross]

If I thought the child had friends that were in the same capacity he.

[Rob]

Was, I would approach him for the.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Simple fact that if I could molest.

[Rob]

Him, I could lure him into believing, grooming him into believing that he would enjoy it, and therefore I could manipulate him into having his other friends come. You know what it made me just think about, Rob? It just made me think about Epstein's business model. If you think about it, because he. Epstein got the girls to recruit other girls to his facility. I'm sure you've seen the documentary with Epstein. Yeah. By the. Who do people say you look like? Did they tell you look like somebody or.

[Rick Allen Ross]

No, that I look like the rapper Rick Ross. I don't think so.

[Rob]

You're. You're the third most famous Rick Ross in the world. Is that fair? Maybe.

[Rick Allen Ross]

But I will say this. I was always Rick Ross. I didn't change my name.

[Rob]

So they took your name? Yes. Guys, you know.

[Rick Allen Ross]

You know what's interesting? Ricky Ross is my legal name on my birth certificate. R I C K Y Alan Ross. And so Freeway Ricky Ross became the first person that used the same name as me. And then subsequently, of course, Rick Ross was not thinking of me, he was thinking of Freeway Ricky Ross. And then he. He took the name Rick Ross, which was not his given name. But all I can say is what a successful guy he is. And he's quite the entrepreneur. And sometimes I. I wish I was that Rick Ross because he's.

[Rob]

You gotta rap better, Rick.

[Rick Allen Ross]

He's. He's so successful. But let. Let me just say this. The consistent narrative that pulls through all the people that I talk to that are cult victims, survivors of destructive cults, is similar to what that man just said, that pedophile, which is that they were at a vulnerable point in their life, things were not going well, and they were looking for someone to help them, someone to make them feel better about their situation, about themselves. And at that point, an authority figure or a seeming authority figure or someone they trusted. It could be a co worker, friend, a relative who was involved in the group came to them and said, hey, come to this meeting, do this. And they didn't know what the group was really all about, but they trusted the person that approached them. And at the same time they were hurting. And so that made them vulnerable. And what I'm going to say is that all of us go through periods of time in our lives where we are vulnerable, where things are not going well. And when that happens, be careful, be careful not to trust someone too much, that they have all the answers.

[Rob]

I'm assuming you run a consulting firm. You run a firm where people pay for you to help out with these types of things?

[Rick Allen Ross]

Yes.

[Rob]

Okay, fantastic. Well, we'll put the book here, Colts Inside Out, Rick Allen Ross, how people get in and can get out. We'll put the link below. Rick, this has been a pleasure having you on. I've really enjoyed learning more about you.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Thank you.

[Rob]

Thank you. Take care, everybody. Bye bye. Bye bye.

[Rick Allen Ross]

Hi, I'm Rick Allen Ross, cult expert, intervention specialist, author of the book Cults Inside Out. You can find me on Manect.