Who Is Michael Cohen? | PBD #728

Summary

PBD Podcast Episode 728 Summary: "Who Is Michael Cohen?"

Date: January 29, 2026
Host: Patrick Bet-David (PBD)
Guest: Michael Cohen (Former personal attorney to Donald Trump)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the personal, professional, and political journey of Michael Cohen, the former personal attorney to Donald Trump. Recently “canceled” by the left and right, and fired by Midas Touch, Cohen speaks candidly about loyalty, betrayal, his unique relationship with Trump, the fraught world of American justice, his own regrets, and the realities of being publicly ostracized by both political extremes. The conversation covers Cohen's evolving views on Trump, his role in the Trump Organization, the fallout after the FBI raid, and the impact of polarization on public figures. The tone is raw, at times emotional, and consistently direct.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Opening Context: Why Michael Cohen Is on the PBD Podcast

• PBD sets the stage, acknowledging controversy over inviting Cohen just after he was fired by Midas Touch.
• Cohen’s reason for being there: to discuss his decisions, his falling out with Trump, and his position between political extremes. Both host and guest expect criticism from their respective audiences for this very dialogue.
• PBD: “You’ve been canceled now by both sides.” (00:43)

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2. Cohen's Involvement with Universities and Advice on Trump

• Cohen was recently invited by Jeffrey Sonnenfeld of Yale to advise over 100 university presidents on handling Trump’s aggressive tactics regarding federal funding and litigation.
  • Advice: Settle early with Trump; he’s relentless and uses every leverage point, just as in his business career.
    • Quote: “He keeps the pressure on. That’s how we operated at the Trump Organization… Nothing changes.” (05:10)
  • Cohen emphasizes that facts are facts, regardless of political fallout for stating them.

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3. Fallout from Midas Touch and Being Canceled by Both Sides

• Cohen explains being dropped by Midas Touch after he posted a Substack criticizing how prosecutors pressured him in his testimony and expressing that the “system” isn’t about justice.
  • He’s unfazed by Midas dropping him, saying he remains friends with the founders but acknowledges their business decision because of their audience’s backlash.
    • Quote: “I have to be me and you have to be you. But we’ll remain friends even after this.” (13:07)
  • Emphasizes that he prefers opinions to be based on facts, not “pulled out of your ass.” (13:46)

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4. The ‘Flip’ and Loyalty Debate

• PBD repeatedly pushes Cohen on the notion that he “flipped” on Trump.
  • Cohen rejects the term “flip,” arguing that he did not profit or gain favor from testifying—the system forced his hand. He shares the emotional strain of being caught between government pressure and personal loyalty.
    • Quote: “It’s not a question of flip. It’s a question of answering questions.” (21:34)

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5. Personal Cost: Who Stands with Michael Cohen Today?

• When asked who has his back:
  • “My wife, my daughter, my son.” (12:25)
  • Outside his family, Cohen admits to feeling isolated: no one in business or public life truly trusts him now. He details how supporters also abandon him if he doesn’t fit a narrative.
    • Quote: “I don’t think there’s anyone [outside family].” (48:54)
    • Shows open emotion: “I hate that. … I actually have… I’m much more sensitive than people think.” (48:57-48:58)

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6. Relationship with Trump: Love, Betrayal, and Regret

• Cohen describes the depth of his relationship with Trump—“50,000 hours” together—and offers both positive and critical stories.
• Despite everything, he still expresses love:
  • “In fact, I love the guy.” (30:27)
• His anger is not for Trump personally, but for allowing “sycophants” to sever their bond. He indicates the breaking point came after the FBI raid when Trump distanced himself.
  • Quote: “It was like being betrayed by a brother.” (36:58)
• The last call with Trump: The day after the FBI raid. (37:13)

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7. Why Didn't He Stay Loyal? Would He Do Things Differently?

• Cohen reflects on whether he regrets his decisions.
  • States that the “system” left him with no choice; not testifying would have destroyed his family.
  • He maintains he never wanted to become involved with prosecutors and claims that all 13 allegations from the Russia probe were false. (17:51-19:23)

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8. Polarization, Cancel Culture, and the Chaos of Public Judgment

• The experience of being attacked by both far left and far right is a major theme.
• Cohen voices frustration over the impossibility of pleasing either side and the hypocrisy in public judgment, particularly from self-identified “devout Christians” who weaponize outrage. (84:46, 87:11)
• He talks about how critics manipulate false stories for clout and money, e.g., his non-involvement with Jeffrey Epstein. (50:54-54:02)
• Quote: “Why does everything that I say—somebody has to make a determination about the quality of my soul and character?... Maybe people should learn to keep their judgments to themselves.” (84:46)

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9. Behind the Scenes: Humanizing Trump

• Cohen highlights Trump’s generosity and love for sports and shares anecdotes from when Trump showed empathy, such as allowing Cohen to attend his son’s baseball games. (28:03-30:05)
• Acknowledges both positive and negative aspects, repeatedly stating facts over partisanship.

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10. Moving Forward: Reaching Out, Emancipation Initiative, and the Possibility of Reconciliation

• Cohen contemplates calling Trump, expressing both hope and anxiety about the outcome.
  • “I'm not 100% certain I know what I would even say at this point.” (73:04)
• Details a “Trump Emancipation Proclamation Order” (TEPO) he co-authored with Jesse Jackson Jr.—an initiative to restore rights to nonviolent ex-felons (70 million Americans).
  • Cohen affirms he’d be proud to meet Trump if it meant advancing this “legacy” policy, even if it resulted in more backlash from the left. (79:43)
• PBD strongly encourages Cohen to make the call and try for reconciliation, suggesting Trump often “tests” his generals and closes ranks again if approached with respect.

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11. Reflections on Loyalty in Trump’s World

• PBD and Cohen discuss Trump’s complex approach to loyalty, testing, and forgiving former adversaries.
  • Cohen: “One of the most loyal [bosses] to his people I've ever met.” (66:09)
  • However, he maintains that true loyalty should include not abandoning aides during crisis.
• Discusses relationships with Trump’s children and the pain of being cut off after years of close friendship. (74:03)

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12. Trump’s 2012 and 2016 Runs: Cohen's Role

• Cohen laid groundwork for Trump’s political ambitions as early as 2011, starting a website (“ShouldTrumpRun.com”) that drew massive early interest.
  • “Within, I don't know, 72 hours, 10 million people responded.” (95:22)
• Details their strategy discussions from 2011–2015, the decision to walk away from “The Apprentice” for $60 million to launch a run, and how Trump’s persona and superstitions shaped his decisions. (93:13-97:36)

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13. Stance on Other Controversies

• Expresses nuanced, at times contrarian, positions on issues like border security, ICE enforcement, the First Step Act, and foreign affairs—often breaking with hard-left or right orthodoxy.
• Critiques Trump’s Venezuela operation (“boondoggle”), and clarifies he never saw any involvement with Jeffrey Epstein in Trump’s world. (113:01, 54:02)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On loyalty:
  “I would have taken a bullet for him. The only time I would not: if he’s the one that was pulling the trigger.” – Michael Cohen (30:11, 21:01, paraphrased throughout)
• On Trump using leverage:
  “That’s the beautiful thing about Donald Trump. Nothing changes… He’s exactly the same.” – Michael Cohen (05:10)
• On being canceled:
  “There’s an entire left wing ecosystem—maniacs—that are trying to cancel me… These are lunatics that are saying that, canceled you.” – Michael Cohen (48:17)
• On their break:
  “And now all of a sudden, Michael Cohen doesn’t exist… What did I do so deservant, so bad?” – Michael Cohen (34:23)
• On staying true despite punishment:
  “Nothing that I’ve said is untrue… I will speak the fact whether it’s in favor of Trump or not.” (17:01)
• On advice to universities facing Trump’s litigation:
  “My recommendation is to settle and settle early. Because if you don’t, Trump doesn’t stop… He keeps the pressure on.” (05:10)
• On isolation:
  “I don’t think there’s anyone [outside family].” – Michael Cohen (48:54);
  “Terrible. Sad. I have emotions. I’m not a stone.” (48:58)
• On contemplating reconciliation:
  “My hope is that the President is actually listening to this podcast, turns around, says, you know what? Yeah, I miss the guy, too. Give me a call. He still has my cell number. It actually was once … a Trump number.” (72:48)
• On being criticized for praising Trump:
  “That ‘Amen’ by me saying will probably get me again canceled by many of the far left.” (09:53)
• On the justice system:
  “We are a country of laws, but we’re not a country of justice. Depends upon who sits at the lever of power, determines who ends up getting screwed and who ends up walking.” (19:23)
• On the TEPO initiative (Trump Emancipation Proclamation Order):
  “I call it TEPO—Trump Emancipation Proclamation Order. It would give a second chance to 70 million nonviolent felons… That is historic. That is legacy stuff.” (79:43, 102:13)

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Suggested Episode Structure/Timestamps

• 00:00-02:39 Opening, why Cohen is on the pod, controversy
• 03:45-09:46 Yale/University presidents, Trump’s negotiation tactics
• 10:51-15:23 What led to being fired by Midas Touch, canceled by left and right
• 16:36-22:35 The ‘flip’ vs. testifying under pressure, public backlash
• 24:10-30:10 Loyalty, relationship to Trump, emotional fallout
• 34:23-39:52 Final break with Trump, abandonment, last conversations
• 42:37-48:57 Regrets and reflections, current support network
• 54:02-57:23 Epstein rumors, cancel culture, online attacks
• 60:14-66:15 Friendship, old allies in business, Trump’s loyalty (or lack thereof)
• 68:11-79:43 On attempts at reconciliation, what Cohen would want to accomplish, Emancipation Order
• 95:13-97:42 Cohen’s crucial role in Trump’s political rise and early campaign strategy
• 113:01-119:02 Foreign policy (Venezuela, Brazil), the role of the U.S. as “world police”
• 119:09-end Final reflections, summary thoughts, what comes next

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Conclusion

This episode is a raw, revealing tour through the emotional and political fallout of Michael Cohen’s break with Trump. It avoids easy partisanship, exposing the personal and professional costs of public life in polarized America. Cohen’s candor, emotional honesty, and willingness to praise Trump where he sees fit create a nuanced portrait—one that will challenge hardened beliefs on both ends of the spectrum.

If you’re interested in the intersection of loyalty, power, and the high cost of political warfare—this is a can’t-miss episode.

Transcript

[Michael Cohen]

The words the media should be using to describe Mr. Trump are generous, kind, honest, and genuine. He was the ultimate loyalist. It's not a question of flip. It's a question of answering questions.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You flipped, though.

[Michael Cohen]

It's not a flip, Michael.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You went on every single channel. You talk negatively about the president. The man who once said he'd take a bullet for Donald Trump.

[Michael Cohen]

The only time I would not. If he's the one that was pulling the trigger. I pled guilty in federal court to felonies for the benefit of individual number one. And for the record, individual number one is President Donald J. Trump. Ex Trump attorney Michael Cohen says New York prosecutors pressured him to target President Trump. I would never have testified. I didn't want to.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And you've been canceled now by both sides.

[Michael Cohen]

They started getting 20,000 people telling them, if Michael Cohen remains on the network, we're unsubscribing. My audience will say, are you back in this camp? Are you bending the knee? I almost can't say anything.

[Patrick Bet-David]

He chose that job. That comes with the territory. So there's probably two communities watching the saying, why would Michael Cohen go on the PBD podcast? And number two, why would we have Michael Cohen on the podcast today after he just got fired by Midas Touch? They cut his show and we started talking. We've been talking for about almost two years because I wanted to get him on, to talk about some of the decisions that he made. And it was very uncomfortable in certain moments, very awkward in certain moments. But he was very open. He said some things that I did not think he was going to say. I asked him a question. I said, who do you trust and who trusts you? You will be very surprised by the answer he gave. And he got emotional when he gave the answer. I said, do you want a pardon from the president? You know, which side do you trust more, the left or the right? You've been attacked by both sides. Which one is worse? And he was very frank and very open about it. Right before we were going live, he was doing a talk for 100 universities, some of the biggest universities, Yale being one of them, to tell him how to handle the lawsuit, how to deal with the president. He opens up and talks about that. Of course, he told a lot of stories behind the scenes with the president. And you'll see a moment, even an initiative that he's wanting to share on why he may want to go to the White House and sit down and talk to the president. This is Michael Cohen, President Trump's lawyer wants to go and Talk to the president. You're going to watch this and I don't know how you're going to process this, but I think by the time it's over, you're going to say, this is definitely the last thing I would have thought for Michael Cohen to do on this show on PBD podcast. With that being said, enjoy the interview. Who is Michael Cohen?

[Michael Cohen]

Did you ever think you were made again?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Life, Adam, what's your point? The future looks bright. My handshake is better than anything I ever saw. It's right here. You are a one of one.

[Michael Cohen]

I think I said this.

[Patrick Bet-David]

All the time, so. But if there's one thing I will tell you while the audience is watching this, they're probably surprised that you're sitting here. Like, if there was any anywhere, you would be on a podcast right now. Your audience is probably surprised you're here. And my audience can say, my audience would kill me. That's exactly what I'm saying, that you're sitting here. So. But I got a lot of questions, a lot of things I want to go through. And by the way, it's important that the audience knows nothing is off the table. You get to choose to answer whatever way you want. And I'm going to ask my questions. But something happened right before we got live. You were doing an interview that I asked you if you're comfortable sharing with the audience. So the head of Yale asked you to speak to 100 presidents of different universities. Why?

[Michael Cohen]

So it's Jeffrey Sonnenfeld. He's the head of the Yale University Business School. I've known Jeff a while. I speak at Yale several times a year. At Jeffrey's bequest, He brought in 100 university presidents. And the question that they were discussing, the topic was how to deal with Donald Trump as it relates to being the head of a university. As we all know, Trump is right now in litigation with Harvard. When I say Trump, I'm talking about the United States of America. Trump being, of course, the president. There's litigation against Harvard based upon a multitude of issues, from DEI to gender equality and the education that they're providing. But they had, like I said, 100 individuals, and they were asking me, how do you think that we should deal with President Trump in handling this issue? Because they are right now in a very precarious situation. They do not want to lose the funding, the government funding which Trump controls and is using as leverage. Sure. While simultaneously they want to keep their ability to operate the school in the manner that they deem best. And that's a problem.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What, what feedback did you give them?

[Michael Cohen]

I gave them. My recommendation is to settle and settle early. Because if you don't, Trump doesn't stop. He will keep going. He will keep. He will keep pushing the envelope farther and farther. So if he starts with, say, $100 million as a. As a payment in exchange for removing the restrictions on the grants, my suggestion, try to water down the poison as much as you can. Maybe get it down to 50 million or 75 million. But if you don't, he and his team will continue to push it. Next thing you know, it's not 100, it's 250. And after 250, it goes to 500. And he keeps the pressure on. That's how we operated at the Trump Organization. See, that's the beautiful thing about Donald Trump. Nothing changes. He's exactly the same. He operates in the same way that he operated at the Trump Organization. He's running the United States. Identical.

[Patrick Bet-David]

It's as if you're already negotiating on his behalf on the first. In the first 30 seconds of our conversation.

[Michael Cohen]

Well, if you say so, what I'm doing is I'm providing them with facts.

[Patrick Bet-David]

He's going to see this. So if he sees this, knowing him, that he may use this or he may surprise, which one do you think he'll do? Will he change his tune and say, I don't like the fact that Michael is saying, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna change it up, and I'm.

[Michael Cohen]

No chance. No chance.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What do you think he does?

[Michael Cohen]

I say he does the exact same thing that he's doing now. He doesn't change. It's very rare. He knows he has all the leverage. He knows, as he says all the time, I control the cards. And as it relates to these university, Donald Trump controls the cards. Now, my audience. My audience will say, michael, what the hell is wrong with you? Why are you. Why are you saying good things about the President? Why are you saying good things about Donald? Are you back in his camp? Are you bending the knee? Right? Are you looking for something from him? The answer is no. A fact is a fact. Whether you like that fact or you don't, a fact is still a fact. Donald Trump will use whatever leverage and pressure that he can on the universities to get them to capitulate.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay, so what did they say? What did any of the President. Can you say which presidents? You told me one of them, so I don't want to say publicly. If you are comfortable saying it, you.

[Michael Cohen]

Know, I'd Rather not, because I don't know what it's. It's top. Let me say. Let me say this. It's part of the big ten, and it's one of the big ten schools. A very, well, very respected school. And a very, very respected president asked me an incredible question. We're not there yet to settle. Right. And I said to him, do it because there is no benefit to you to hold out. Ultimately, you will pay very much like the law firms did.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Why? Because of discovery. Because of what? Because what comes out of it, the discovery.

[Michael Cohen]

It's the pressure again. They need the money within which to operate. They have all sorts of funding needs. Now Harvard is taking a little bit of a different position. As we know, Harvard has the largest endowment.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Massive.

[Michael Cohen]

Massive.

[Patrick Bet-David]

60, 70, 80 billion, something like that.

[Michael Cohen]

And the interest that they earn off of it annually is also massive. Technically, they really don't need the money. Doesn't mean that they don't want it. Sure. They just don't need it. So they have the ability. But many of the hundred schools that Jeffrey Sonnenfeld had on that live viewing, they don't have the endowments that Harvard has, not even a percentage of it. And so they need that money.

[Patrick Bet-David]

The smaller ones. The smaller of the 100.

[Michael Cohen]

Correct.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay.

[Michael Cohen]

And that's where Trump again has the massive leverage. One of the things that they're interested in doing is maybe acting cumulatively as educational facilities across America within which to try to negotiate some sort of a global deal, like almost like a mass tort litigation, something like that. Once again, once again, not.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You're not saying to flip class action against the White House. No, no, that would be a dumb move.

[Michael Cohen]

No, it would be a stupid move. What I'm saying is, as a group, educational, that they would come up with some sort of a global settlement with the president in terms of how they are going to operate on a, we'll call it Department of Education basis. Got it.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What's a bad look for them right now? It's not been a good.

[Michael Cohen]

At the end of the day, who's the winner in that fight?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Oh, Trump is.

[Michael Cohen]

Amen.

[Patrick Bet-David]

It's not even a question.

[Michael Cohen]

It's not, by the way, that Amen by me saying will probably get me again canceled by many of the far left. You see, here's the problem. I've never been far left. I am probably a foot left of center. And the problem is not only do I have, of course, the far right that despise me, I also get tremendous pushback from the far left because I will not sit here and I will not make up stories about a man who I was in very close with, as close as two people could really be who are non familial. I will not make up lies within which to appease their desires. And so when I state a fact, it's a fact off of my lived experience, my knowledge, not hearsay, not innuendo, just my lived experience. And that gets me in trouble.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And it continues to. But I want to go through this. So to me, who has Michael Cohen's back today, here's why I asked this question. Of course, in 06, when he started working with children. Okay, but you know, in 06, you're working with them from business side. Trump has your back. Then there's a falling out. You flip. FBI time, prison.

[Michael Cohen]

Actually, I hate that word.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Let me just finish this. And you say whatever you want. So then you go to the left, whatever word you want to call it. You're the darling of the left. You know, Jimmy Kimmel has you on msnbc, cnn, everybody has you on. Then you go to Midas Touch. And by the way, Midas Touch, their entire, they even talk about this, their vision, why they started Midas Touch in March of 2020 was to prevent the President from getting reelected. That was their entire M.O. to get reelected. You have a show with them. I even think you have a show with one of the founders. If I'm not mistaken, his name is Ben. If I'm not mistaken, is that his name? Ben? Right. So you have a show with them and then you come out and you say the following comments. And you said you were compelled and coerced to only provide information and testimony that would satisfy the government's desire to build the case against and secure a judgment and convictions against Trump. You say this in your substack, not a crazy thing. This is your opinion against Letitia James and Alvin Bragg. Then we get news that Midas Touch drops you. This is 10 or 12 years days ago. Drops, fired, cutting away whatever word they want to use. They fired the podcast and they move on. If you were at any other place, you're not getting fired. So your position today, who has Michael Cohen's back? I want to hear your thoughts.

[Michael Cohen]

My wife, my daughter, my son.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay.

[Michael Cohen]

And those people who are more centrist, I have no issue with Ben or his brothers, Brett or Jordi. We're still friends, we still speak. We're just not doing business together. And I understand the reason why they did what they did. They have a very left leaning constituency. And so they started getting 10,000, 20,000 people telling them, if Michael Cohen remains on the network, we're unsubscribing.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Just for that comment.

[Michael Cohen]

Yes, sir. Just for that comment. Now, these people didn't just make that threat, they actually did it. And it was a significant amount of money. And they have, as you do, a large payroll. And so I said, I understand, I understand. And I have to be me and you have to be you. But we're still friends, and we still will remain friends even after this. But I have friends who have on the far, far left, and I have friends who are on the far, far right. And everyone is entitled to their opinion. I prefer when you give your opinion that it's predicated off of facts, not, you know, something you pull out of your ass. I do prefer that, but everybody has the right. It's the First Amendment.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I get that. But, you know, CNN viewers probably are not fan of Scott Jennings. He didn't get fired. He got a longer contract. Right, right.

[Michael Cohen]

You know, I saw Scott Jennings about two weeks ago.

[Patrick Bet-David]

He's very good at what he does. Scott Jennings, to me, I call him the CEO cnn, because he runs the show there. If without Scott, well, a lot of people wouldn't be watching cnn.

[Michael Cohen]

On the other side, they would say that Jessica Tarlov is the COO of Fox, too. She's with Greg, by the way, Jesse.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Jesse Waters, what I'm saying to you is kudos to both institutions for not firing a Michael Cohen.

[Michael Cohen]

Agreed.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Because to me, a. What's the benefit of a Michael Cohen? You're a complicated character to the, to the average person. Right. So to the left or the right, they're like, I don't know, maybe. But what do you. Do you at least bring eyeballs, right? You're at least going to get to say, what does this guy have to say?

[Michael Cohen]

Well, I'm certain that your show is going to do great. Right now, people are going to be, why is, why is Patrick having Michael Cohen? I mean, what's wrong with him? Is Patrick turning PBD podcast into a radical left, you know, lunatic show?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah. Or even bigger, am I going to go, you know, try to hire you as a fixer?

[Michael Cohen]

Are you going to be, by the way, that'd be a smart move. Are you smart? Are you, are you already, you know, turning the cheek? Are you already, you know, seeing some demise coming to this administration?

[Patrick Bet-David]

No, I actually see the opposite. And here's what I see with you. Because to me, you know, when I, when I think about you, one thing you Have. That's very unique with you. And you probably wouldn't recommend this to the average person, but you've gone through it. So you. Your guy that comes in, you saw what it's like to publicly, you know, you say things about Trump. You know, you're on Jimmy Kimmel. You know, he asks you question, you know, who is the biggest lowlife in that community you're a part of? And you give all these names. You start off with him, his family, Weisenberg. You go through a list of names that you.

[Michael Cohen]

I'm not sure that was the word that I used, but, okay, he used.

[Patrick Bet-David]

The word low life. He said, who is the biggest lowlife? And you said it starts with that so they can play the clip to see it. But I watched a clip, I think, yesterday or something like that, because I'm watching to see how you were used. Okay, so you go there and you're thinking you're making the right move, and maybe you still believe that. That you, you know, with Trump, you said things publicly, and then it was very difficult for him for a season, and then the left comes in, and you've been canceled now by both sides. So for you going through this position, do you sit there and say, maybe I shouldn't have done this. Maybe I should have stayed, you know, with Trump, maybe I should have stayed that position? Has that thought at all crossed your mind?

[Michael Cohen]

So it's interesting you bring that up. While I was in Otisville, there was a guy. I won't mention his name because I'm sure he listens to your podcast. He knows exactly who he is. Hey, Sasha. And he turned around, he said to me, why don't you just shut up? He goes, chances are, the second you get out, or even before.

[Patrick Bet-David]

How long was this?

[Michael Cohen]

Well, that was within the first year that I was there. He goes, trump will pardon you, and he'll probably bring you back in. For all you know, you'll end up with a big contract with Fox. First of all, he goes, you're funny. You're also incredibly, you know, knowledgeable. So he goes, you'll probably end up with, like, some sort of a Fox contract. And I said, no, nothing that I've said is untrue. I said, I will speak the fact whether it's in favor of Trump or not. Now, I didn't take that advice from a financial standpoint, probably. Should I have? Yes. Did I? No. Have I been canceled by both sides? Yes.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Would you do anything differently, specifically with the. Because to me. Okay, well, let me ask a question.

[Michael Cohen]

So let me give you. Let me give you the better way to sort of frame this question. What ended up pushing me into the hands of prosecutors was never my desire. It was never my goal. I never wanted the FBI to raid my home, my hotel that I was staying at, or my law office. I never wanted it. Why did it happen? Well, the Russia hoax, and I've always maintained that the Steele dossier was bullshit. I never went to Prague. I've never been to Prague. They claimed I had 10 million in cash in Prague to pay off Russian compromise. And so none of it is true. All 13 allegations raised against me were a lie. I went and I saw the President in the Oval Office. The very first time I received a request to appear before cipse, the Senate Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, and I said no. I spoke to an attorney by the name of Jay Sekulow, who I received through Sean Hannity, and he said, it's like an invitation to a wedding or a bar mitzvah or something like that. You don't have to go. I said, fine. I typed out a response, thank you, but no thank you. They then hit me with a subpoena. And I said to the President, eye to eye, same distance I'm sitting from you. The only difference wasn't a Formica desk. It was the Lincoln desk, the Resolute desk. I said to him, sir, please shut this down. Nothing good is going to come out of this. These are a bunch of animals, I'm telling you. And the advice that he got from those that were around him were, it'll be bad. The story will be bad today. If it was happening today, in 2025, 2026, Trump would have shut it down. That I know, because he understands the power that the presidency has. But he was more concerned. He allowed them to convince him. And that's where it all started. When you're under oath, you don't want 1001 violation. You're not going to lie under oath, unless, of course, you're a member of Congress. Right? Then it's. Then somehow it becomes permissible. I didn't. I wasn't going to lie under oath. They asked me questions, I gave them the answer. And that's how I became the darling of the left. Because what they did is they took specific topics, and by the way, with all due respect to every single one of your listeners, yourself and everybody that's in this gigantic studio, same thing that they did to him, the same thing they did to me, they can do to you. And that's my. That's my disdain for the system. The system. We are a country of laws, but we're not a country of justice. Depends upon who sits at the lever of power, determines who ends up getting screwed and who ends up walking.

[Patrick Bet-David]

They can do to you. Who's they?

[Michael Cohen]

Government, the Department of Justice, the judge, the prosecutors. It's all about what they want to advance their career. You know, ask anybody who's been through the system. Here's the first line of horseshit that comes out from a prosecutor's mouth. I have a 98% conviction rate. You're not going to be part of that 2%. 98%. Well, you must be a genius. How come you and every single Prosecutor has a 98% conviction rate? The answer, because they control all the levers. They control the whole game.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Still.

[Michael Cohen]

Still. And with me. What happened? I didn't want to testify. I was subpoenaed every single time within which to testify. Had I not had to testify the first time around, none of this would have gone on. I had no desire within which to. And it's not a question. You used the word flip. It's not a question of flip. It's a question of answering questions, responding to questions.

[Patrick Bet-David]

No, you flip, though.

[Michael Cohen]

It's not a flip, Michael.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You flip. When you flip, you went on every single channel. You talk negatively about the president.

[Michael Cohen]

You flip only when you flip. Only when. When you get a benefit from it. What benefit have I ever received? In other words, think about the mob. Think about the mob when they flip on their boss.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Oh, I'll tell you. Yeah, okay.

[Michael Cohen]

What did I get?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Oh, no. What do you. What you got? You didn't get what you wanted. You didn't get.

[Michael Cohen]

What did I want?

[Patrick Bet-David]

What didn't you want? You didn't want to pardon from Biden. You didn't hope that he would pardon you like. With all due respect, he said, I want to de. Politicize the concept of pardoning. And then he ends up pardoning his son and Fauci and his family and all the J6.

[Michael Cohen]

You know, mind you, when I asked for that pardon, I was already finished and I was already off paper six years. So flipping, you don't do it post facto, right? I'm not asking for a post mortem award. I wanted it. I wanted it early, early on, but that wasn't happening.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So I've sat down with actual mobsters. I've probably done more mop interviews than anybody else in the podcast world. And you talk. Any one of them, they'll come and talk to me. Whether it's Sammy dubois when he got out, whether it's Michael Francis, whether it's the late Frank Collada or Philly. And I'll give you the list of every one of these guys. No, not at all. It's just got. It's. It's. I enjoy the movies, and so. And I'm in Florida. A lot of these guys end up here, as you know, because they like.

[Michael Cohen]

They like the warm weather.

[Patrick Bet-David]

They like the warm weather. Yes, they do. But flipping is, you know, why they.

[Michael Cohen]

Like the warm weather. The ground is easier.

[Patrick Bet-David]

The ground is easier.

[Michael Cohen]

Short to dig up.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Makes sense. Yeah, makes sense. I like that joke. I think the right people got it faster than I got it, but I got it. So. But, you know, going back to it, when we talk about flipping, I want to qualify and isolate this main issue. You're not one of the guys. How many total hours did you spend with the president?

[Michael Cohen]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Total hours.

[Michael Cohen]

50,000.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay, that's a lot of. How many people have spent 50,000 hours with them?

[Michael Cohen]

Zero.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay. So you're a guy.

[Michael Cohen]

Maybe Alan. Maybe Alan Weissler, let's say. But maybe I don't think is.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Let's say a handful. Let's say a handful. Maybe his son, family, whoever it is, let's say a handful. Okay, so you go, you know everything in a business sense. I'm trusting you, and you're telling the public. I would take a bullet for this guy.

[Michael Cohen]

And I would have, I think.

[Patrick Bet-David]

At what age you read Art of the Deal twice? You were 15 or 16 years old. I don't know what it was.

[Michael Cohen]

So the Art of the Deal came out in 1987. I was a sophomore in college.

[Patrick Bet-David]

College. Okay. And you, I think you said you read it a couple times.

[Michael Cohen]

Twice.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So this is a guy you looked up to since you were a kid coming up.

[Michael Cohen]

Correct.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So you ended up working for this guy?

[Michael Cohen]

Yes.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You're in there.

[Michael Cohen]

In there.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I don't have it prepared, but if I wanted to tell my guys in the next six hours to create the clips of every time you defamed him, they can come up with hundreds. Yes.

[Michael Cohen]

Well, I don't know about the word defamed, but I would say said extremely negative things about.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Lowlife is pretty negative.

[Michael Cohen]

You're right.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah. Lowlife is pretty negative. So it's not like I don't want.

[Michael Cohen]

To play, by the way, with all due respect, think about how many times she said that about me.

[Patrick Bet-David]

But there's a difference, though. Here's the difference, and I will tell you what the difference is if in, in the power structures of the world, okay, in any, in a. Especially with him, New York, you guys go by different rule than, you know, Toledo or Mesa, Arizona or Glendale, California, it's a different rule in New York. New York is tough in business. New York real estate is tough. So when you're playing it, you have to know the power structure. I'm the boss, him, and you're my right hand guy that's doing stuff for me. I expect 100% that you have my back.

[Michael Cohen]

And I gave it that.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I get that. But was, what was the moment where you were kind of like, were you hoping for a job? Were you hoping to get something that maybe you didn't get? And then was the pressure from the other side so much that maybe someone from that administration came in and said, michael, if you do xyz, we will protect you, we will have your back, we will get you a job. You'll be taken care of. Because that's typically things that happen. Okay, so what happened?

[Michael Cohen]

Okay, can we. We have to break that down into things because go for. The timeline is all over, right? It's like from the year of Gimmel all the way to the end of the earth. In terms of the timeline you just set up. I received exactly what I asked President elect Trump for. There was all this bullshit about Michael wanted to be Chief of Staff. That's not true. What I wanted, Mr. Trump gave to me, personal attorney to the President of the United States of America. When I tell you I was honored with that title, I was honored. He gave it to me. It was one of the few times in my life, other than when my children were born, I had tears in my eyes. Tears. I was like, thank you, sir. That's exactly what I want. I don't want to be Chief of Staff. How can I monetize that position as Chief of Staff? I don't want to live in D.C. i lived in D.C. for four years. My son was a senior in high school, my daughter was a senior in college. My son was a ball player playing actually for Hanks Yanks, the high school travel baseball team for the New York Yankees. He had tryouts with the, with the Chicago White Sox, with the Yankees, the Mets. You know, as a young boy, I wanted to be there for every single game. And in fact, if I can just tell a good story about Trump, and I've told the story many times, it's not as if I only said bad things about him. I also said some positive things about him. But you're not wrong when you say, I told Trump was a baseball player when he was at NYMAR New York Military Academy. And how do I know that? By coincidence, I end up speaking to his coach, who actually also had to be like the general over there at New York Military Academy, says, I'd love to come in and speak to Donald because the school is going to be for sale and I'd like Donald to buy it. So keep Naima going. He comes in, little guy, right? But rock solid and typical what you would say. He's as Trump would say he was central casting. Trump goes, michael, keep him away. Michael, keep him away from me. I said, why, boss? So he goes, he once smacked me so hard in the head. He hit me upside the head so hard. He goes, sometimes when I think about it, I still get a headache. And I was like, really? So he goes, I sure did. And so on. And he, and he did. He goes, but I will tell you, Donald was the best baseball player. He was an incredible hand, eye coordination as a, as a hitter and as a fielder. And I said, no, no kidding. Really? So he goes, yeah. So he goes, he was a great baseball player. Donald got a chance to know, of course, my children quite well, especially, you know, my son, and he loved the fact that he was a baseball player, but not just a baseball player. He was a really good baseball player. In fact, the time I was allegedly in Prague, we were in la where my son had a tryout with the UFC Trojans. Another time he was here at Miami where he ended up going to school at the University of Miami. He wanted to play for the Miami Hurricanes. Didn't happen because of everything that happened. He ended up a little bit with the yips. To anybody in baseball knows what the yips is. It's where psychologically it just throws you off. It's almost like, you know, one day you're pitching a no hitter and the next day you can't hit the strike zone. It's a real condition. But Trump always said, even if I need you, I'm not going to bother you when you're at the game with your kid. Not gonna, I'm not gonna take you away from that. He appreciates sports. In fact, he's actually quite knowledgeable in all sports much, much, much more than I. And I always appreciated that from him, you know, and it was more than just a few games, I don't have to tell you, you know, because truncated into a short period. But he was always.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So you're his right hand guy, right hand lawyer. And when you're at the game, he's.

[Michael Cohen]

Not bothering, you know, unless it was an emergency. And then, you know, he was like, just, when you get back, you know, just come straight over. And sometimes that would mean come over to the apartment or I'll meet you down in the office, or just. We would spend hours on the telephone, you know, dealing with an issue.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What part of his relationship with you, the 50,000 hours, do you miss the most?

[Michael Cohen]

All of it.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You miss all of it?

[Michael Cohen]

All of it. So I see your expression. Same expression Todd Blanche had when I was on trial, sitting in that witness box. He said, you hate Donald Trump, don't you? I said, no, sir. So he goes, what do you mean? I said, in fact, I love the guy.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So he loved or love, love.

[Michael Cohen]

I still present. I'm still insanely angry with him for allowing others to interfere with the relationship. And I don't care. Look, we all know one thing about Trump. He will never apologize. Even when he knows he made a mistake. He will not. It's just not in his nature. Some people can, some people can't. He cannot. But I know in his heart of hearts, he knows he made the mistake on allowing them to convince him to abandon me. You use the mob experience as sort of a way of. He's the boss. Call me a capo, right? I'm a made guy in, we'll call it, Trump land. When there's an issue. When does the mob boss throw his capo under the bus listening to some foot soldier? It never happens. You're supposed to smartly. You wrap your arms around the guy and you protect him. Don't abandon me. They didn't just abandon me in a conversational manner. I was handling legal matters for him that ultimately resulted in the FBI raiding my home, hotel, and law office. And that's because they wanted to get him. I despise James Comey. I've always said I despise James Comey. I know that. Comey ended up getting from John McCain, the Steele dossier. Then it went to, I think, Andrew Weissman. From Weissman, it went to Jeffrey Berman, who recused himself. Then to another guy by the name of Robert Kazami. I mean, all for what? In order to get him. And that is just true, and I hope it's apparent to everybody. I don't care if you're far left or far right. That is and should be apparent to everyone.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So give me the exact timeline. What month was it when you say, you know, he made the wrong decision, he sided with them instead of Me. What was the timeline exactly?

[Michael Cohen]

I was in the process of going through all of the documents on a review to ensure protection for him in terms of attorney client privilege. We were doing a document review.

[Patrick Bet-David]

He's in already.

[Michael Cohen]

Oh, he's, he's, he's in already.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What's the. Give me a month.

[Michael Cohen]

Ish. It's 17, it's 28. It's 2017. No, it's. Yes, it's 2018.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So end of 17, early 18. Ish.

[Michael Cohen]

Something like that.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay, continue.

[Michael Cohen]

So you're going through that, we're going through that. And all of a sudden my lawyer turns around and says, can you please reach out to Trump. Org? We haven't gotten paid. We got paid some, they held back on the next one, they didn't pay the third bill. Now it's a fourth bill. We can't continue to represent you. I'm saying. Wait, you're joking, right? So not only did they push me under the bus, but now something that I should be protected under, which is executives and officers insurance. They're not even willing to pay that. Why? What the hell did I do to deserve to be ignored, abused, neglected, thrown away, discarded? What did I do so bad? And then I turn around and I realized during a interview that they were doing with Trump. He turned around and they asked him, was right after the raid, he goes, it's disgusting that they raided one of my attorneys. Now all of a sudden I lost my name. Remember? I know the man better than any human being should know another. That's the first sign that you're out.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You knew that.

[Michael Cohen]

Yes, it was that comment that really made me pause and say, wait, wait, now I don't have a name. What happened to Michael Every morning, 4:35 in the morning for over a decade, every morning at 5am and every night. The man doesn't sleep, by the way, neither do I. Which is what made us even closer. Every single morning, 4:30 to 5 phone call. Every night, 11:30, give or take a phone call. First in the morning, last before he goes to bed. And now all of a sudden, Michael Cohen doesn't exist. Tell me why. What did I do so deservant so bad that I deserve to be not just thrown under the bus, but how about run over not once, not twice, but a half a dozen times. And I was like, okay, okay, I guess I am on my own.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So what's your next move when that happens? Because I got a. I got a bunch of follow up questions, but I want to know what you do exactly after that. You see this, you know what the signs are? You're like, I don't think I'm on the inner circle anymore. I'm on the outer, if not the ousted. Like I'm about to be ousted. What's your next move?

[Michael Cohen]

I just continue. I had no moves. It wasn't as if.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Did you approach him? Did you, did you talk to him about it? Did you see the calls declining in a major way?

[Michael Cohen]

I was told by people like Jay Sekulow, oh, don't worry, I'm speaking to the boss, I'm speaking to the boss. You know, everything's going to be fine. Ultimately I realized that Sekulow is lying to me. They then tried to send in this scumbag, Bob Costello, a lawyer who was with Rudy Giuliani. They tried to infiltrate the defense where he wanted to come in. It's really a terrible, terrible. This, by the way, would be probably an Oscar winning movie because it's so outlandish, it's so ridiculous. Nobody would possibly believe that, that this is true. They would think that this is some sort of a made up plot by some really dystopian writer. Why in the world would you do it to me, somebody who would legitimately have taken a bullet for you, except under one condition. If he's the one pulling the trigger, I couldn't do was the ultimate betrayal. It was like being betrayed by a brother.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay, so, but from there on, what I'm trying to find, that is, did you approach him, did you talk to him? How far, how sudden was the fall of communication with him, the late night, the early calls, or was it still going on? That's still taking place.

[Michael Cohen]

That stopped.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So when is the last time you spoke to him?

[Michael Cohen]

The day after the raid.

[Patrick Bet-David]

The last time you spoke to him is the day after the raid.

[Michael Cohen]

After the raid.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You've never spoken to him since the.

[Michael Cohen]

Day after the raid.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Got it. Okay, so you called him or he called you?

[Michael Cohen]

I called him to let him know I was raided by the FBI, which I found to be unusual. Even back then. Trump didn't fully appreciate the power of the presidency, but people still feared him because he was getting rid of people left and right. Remember how many people got shit can of course begin? You're going to really tell me that the FBI was raiding the home, hotel and law office of the personal attorney to the President of the United States and nobody had the decency to tell the President that this was going to happen? Why did he allow that to happen?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Can I speculate?

[Michael Cohen]

You can.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay, so if you're in a position like that, and he has a lot of people that are in his ear. Right. If you're in a position like that and there's a lot of people in his ear, and I've gone through this before. I've gone through it closely, of course, in a much smaller scale in a business where you're like, wait a minute, who is on my side right now? That guy used to be on my side, but why are you protecting that guy now? Used to say this, now you're getting a little too cocky because we're getting so much attention. You're walking around like you run this place, and you look at me in a certain way. Don't look at me like that. You never looked at me like that before. Don't get too comfortable. And there's a certain level of expectation to maintain that energy of respect, to know he's it, right? The. The power struggle. He's trying to learn everybody. He's trying to study everybody. As. As that is happening, don't you think there's a part of it where to say, okay, he's going through a season that he went into a world that he doesn't know this world yet. It's his first term. He's much better now. I mean, he knows what he's doing now with his third term, whatever you want to call it. Of course, those four years he was off, he learned a lot. I was, actually. He has an advantage because at that fourth year of being off, everybody came and gave him so much.

[Michael Cohen]

But let's at least be. Let's at least acknowledge it's his second term, not his third.

[Patrick Bet-David]

For sure it is. It's his second term.

[Michael Cohen]

Because otherwise that would make this term unconstitutional.

[Patrick Bet-David]

No, this is a second term. What I'm saying is that four year was a very good break of getting smarter. I think he has that competitive advantage over his peers. But don't you think while you're in that moment, like, there's a little bit of saying, and maybe he's going through a season. Let me see what he's going through. Instead of, nope, I'm out.

[Michael Cohen]

Yeah, that's not how it happened. You see, what you're doing is you're creating a break in a timeline. I didn't break the timeline. The people, the enablers, the sycophants that were around him are the ones who did it. Jay Sekulow, in my book Revenge, Jared Kushner, Reince Priebus, Steve Bannon, There was a whole group of them. You got to Cut them off. You got to cut them off now, Jared, that saddens me, too, because we had a friendship. You know, Ivanka, from what I understand from investigations that I used to write my book Revenge, Ivanka was like, you can't do that to mc. Her nickname for me, right? You can't do that to mc. Stop. Well, he took the advice of people who were never in his orbit before over the protection of me. And I don't think that you or even any of your listeners would turn around and say, yeah, I would have done that. I think everybody would have done it differently. In fact, I am 100% certain, not 99 and a half like Ivory soap, 100% certain today. If this happened, he would never have done what he did. Certainly not over a million dollars in legal fees, certainly not listening to the enablers that were around him over somebody who he. Who he spoke to and who he trusted every single day for more than a decade. You know, I'm interesting in a way, like insanely loyal. And I don't ask for the same for reciprocal loyalty. I do ask for some. And when I said, and I'm going to repeat it, I said it before, and I think it's important, I would have taken a bullet for him. Someone pulled out a gun, I would have jumped in front of it. The only time I would not. If he's the one that was pulling the trigger. And what I realized is that in this case, when it related to me, he was the one pulling the trigger. He may not have went out and purchased the gun and the ammunition that was given to him by his enablers, but he was the one pulling the trigger. Because as President of the United States, he had the power to do what I told him. What I asked him, I pleaded, I begged him, just shut this shit down. Nothing good is going to come out of this. They're going to come after both of us and we're both going to get hurt from it. And you know what? Sadly, I was correct.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Let me ask you. Let's role play, but let me go.

[Michael Cohen]

One step further, kind of go one step back further.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Sure.

[Michael Cohen]

I wouldn't change anything.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay? But let's, let's, let's play something else out. Okay, let's play it out. You don't do what you did. Where are you at today in 26.

[Michael Cohen]

Broke on the street, no wife, children. Hating me. That's where I was. You see, people have me all wrong. I heard all this crap, you know, Trump made you shitheads. I retired at the age of 39. All right. I didn't need to work for Donald Trump. I wanted. When he offered me that job, which came out of the blue, I didn't put in an application. I was in the office. He asked me to help him with a matter, a matter that dealt with the casinos. And of course, I had done several of the legal matters for him as well prior to that. Then he was like, you happy at that sleepy old firm that you're at? One of the oldest law firms in America? Philip Snies. I was a partner at the firm. He's like, yeah, I don't really work too hard. I'm doing just fine. Having a great time, great life. He said, why don't you come work for me? I'll give you Ivanka's office they just built on the 25th floor. You'd be right next to me. You'd be my personal attorney, my special counsel. I was like, huh? A guy who I admired tremendously is offering me a job. I didn't expect it, actually. I expected to get paid for the work that I did on Trump that day. I was waiting for a check. And when I asked him for the check, humorously, he turned around and goes, you want to get fired on the first day? I was like, okay, I accepted the job. And I don't look back, nor do I look back with the NDAs and so on. I don't look back at any of that.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah, there's a difference between when you're saying shit hits, you know, you think I wasn't making money before. There's a difference between being a lawyer for an oldest, you know, oldest law firm, and you're making good money. You got a good life to. All of a sudden you're with the guy in New York City.

[Michael Cohen]

My point. I retired.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I know you did. So this is not a money thing, but there's a difference between. There's a lot of billionaires. Nobody knows.

[Michael Cohen]

I wasn't a billionaire. I was more than comfortable enough.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I know the story of winning 30 or 40 medallions.

[Michael Cohen]

No. 285 yellow cabs in New York City.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Caps or medallions?

[Michael Cohen]

Medallions. I owned some, right. The. The 40.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Right.

[Michael Cohen]

And then I had some in Chicago.

[Patrick Bet-David]

As some of these medallions at the peak was a million bucks.

[Michael Cohen]

1.4.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Right.

[Michael Cohen]

I had about $60 million just in medallions in New York alone.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And then you had 280 cabs and.

[Michael Cohen]

We had 285 yellows.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And that's through. Through the wife and family, or this is you.

[Michael Cohen]

No, that Was me. I was a lawyer that was working my. My father in law had a couple of medallions. I ended up buying them from him right after 9, 11.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And then you took it to a different level?

[Michael Cohen]

No, I was already in the industry. I started in the taxi industry. December of 1995, I bought out a client when I was practicing negligence tort and medical malpractice, I bought out a client that was leaving the country. I then merged his with another client and we built it together. Me and my ex partner to 285 Yellow Cabs. Bought buildings together, properties together, in fact. Bought properties in Trump World Tower. We bought a whole slew of apartments. I bought one, my parents bought one, my in laws bought a few, my partner bought, some friends bought. I put together a whole block.

[Patrick Bet-David]

With the intention of what? With the intention of trying to get close or just run your business.

[Michael Cohen]

That was my. That was the year 2000.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Right.

[Michael Cohen]

About to go close. I valued the Trump brand for what it was and I was getting a very good deal. Price per square foot. And it was an investment. That's it. And I rented the apartment. I didn't live there. I rented it.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Two others, excuse me, two others.

[Michael Cohen]

Generally I rented them to ambassadors into consulates. It's right across the street from the United Nations.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Oh, six. When you guys got close, how did it happen?

[Michael Cohen]

So what happened is he had had a battle dispute with the board at that building. And Don Jr. Had said, hey, there's a guy who I know, Michael, he has an apartment in that building. But his parents, his in laws, his friends, there's a whole group of them. You should really speak to him. He's kind of sharp elbowed, right. He may be the right guy for you to talk.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Junior's telling this to Pops, Correct? Okay.

[Michael Cohen]

And I met Junior because I had just bought apartments in a different building that I had combined together for my primary residence. And that's where Don Jr. He was doing the construction.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Got it. Okay. So today, Michael, so you're saying I would have done it the same way all over again if I wouldn't have. If I would have stayed the same, I would have been broke today, not married, family, all this stuff that you're talking about, that the situation wouldn't be good for you today you believe that?

[Michael Cohen]

I do.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay, fair. So today, who today do you trust? And who today trusts Michael Cohen?

[Michael Cohen]

My wife and my children.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Outside of families. Outside of family.

[Michael Cohen]

I don't know.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What do you think about that?

[Michael Cohen]

I hate that. You know, I do have a lot of still supporters a lot on my various different social media platforms, as I told you. And really what brought us together for this conversation is there's an entire left wing ecosystem, maniacs that are trying to cancel me. And I probably on my YouTube channel or my sub stack, I probably lost, I don't know, somewhere between 7 to 10% of my subscribers from making those comments. Yes, from that one comment of feeling coerced and pressured.

[Patrick Bet-David]

These are lunatics that are saying that canceled you.

[Michael Cohen]

Correct.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I mean, Midas Touch cancel you as well.

[Michael Cohen]

I don't know if I would say that. Yes, I will acknowledge that. Yes, they did.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay, so. So for you, when I'm asking cancel.

[Michael Cohen]

Me business wise, not personally, that's even.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That'S saying we don't want you representing our brand and I don't want to talk to you anymore. Right?

[Michael Cohen]

No, live on a show.

[Patrick Bet-David]

On a show. Correct. On a show. Okay, so, but who trusts you today and who do you trust today outside of family? You said you have supporters. I'm not saying supporters, I'm saying trust. Who trusts Michael and who does Michael trust today?

[Michael Cohen]

I don't think there's anyone.

[Patrick Bet-David]

How do you feel about that?

[Michael Cohen]

Terrible. Sad. I have emotions. I'm not a stone. I actually have. I'm much more sensitive than people think. And it is sad, right? Because at one point in time I had the guy trust me emphatically. And you know, I'll tell you something, it's that kind of a statement that he trusted me emphatically, that these left wing lunatics, these maniacs, these canceling animals are trying to use. Michael, you must know every single thing about Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. What's pissing them off about that? What's pissing them off about the fact that I turned around and said, let me be crystal, crystal clear. I came into Trump's orbit in 2006 full time. 2007. March of 2007 was really my starting date. During the 10 years from 2011 years, 27 to 2018, I must have been in his office. I don't know, I made, I maybe shouldn't even have had an office. I just should have had that far right chair, the one with the red velvet on it. Right? That was my chair. And it's almost like I felt sometimes that I never left that chair. During those 11 years, I never once heard Donald Trump talking to Jeffrey Epstein on the phone. I never once saw Jeffrey Epstein in that office. I never spoke to Jeffrey Epstein personally. I never engaged in emails, text messages, any communication which if in fact I only live like 12 blocks away from Jeffrey Epstein. All right? He lives on. Well, it doesn't matter, but I live about 12 blocks away from him.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That Lex Wexner house, the $77 million, 52,000 square foot that he got for as a gift.

[Michael Cohen]

A dol. Yeah, right.

[Patrick Bet-David]

For whatever reason, no one knows yet.

[Michael Cohen]

I live 12 blocks away from him. I'm not even sure if I was ever in the same restaurant as Jeffrey Epstein. Never had any communication with him at all. And because I turn around, I say that, that during the 11 plus 12 years that I was literally living inside Trump's office, I never once had any dealings where Trump was in communication or talked about Jeffrey Epstein. However, there is one case that came across my desk. As Trump's special counsel, I received an envelope and in it is a Jane Doe case against Donald Trump. Jane Doe makes the allegation that she was a child and that she was raped by Donald. Well, it's obviously concerning to me as I read through the complaint. It's Jane Doe by and through her mother and natural guardian, Mary Jane Doe. Well, it's a little bit odd that you have the mother still in there, because if in fact, that there's any truth to it, why do you need a natural guardian? You clearly over the age of 18, within which nothing really made sense in that case to me. But I don't keep secrets from the President when something like this comes about. And so I walk over, I knock on the door, hey, boss, can I come in? I said, I just got this crazy ass suit or this notice of lawsuit. They call that a naked summons. What do you know about it? So he goes, michael, it's complete and total bullshit. I said, okay. So he goes, he just handled it. And we had obviously many other things going on at the time. He was running a campaign. I said, sure. So I reach out to some folks who I know. We send an investigator to the alleged address of this Mary Jane Doe, and it's a vacant parking lot. Why you look at me confused? Because that's the same look that I had. How's that possible?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Did you say vacant parking lot?

[Michael Cohen]

Vacant parking lot, you know, like a piece of dirt land. So I reach out to the lawyers and I just start engaging them in conversation. And I don't know what made me ask, was just a gut feeling. Sometimes you get them and if they turn out to be the right ones. Have you ever met your client? He says, no. So what are you talking about? So I said, how'd you get the case was through the mail says it's possible that maybe it's not real. You think that's possible? Because the address that's included in here is a vacant parking lot. So he goes, give me, give me, give me some time. I'm going to call you back. And they ultimately walked away from the case.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Did you find out who it was that send that to?

[Michael Cohen]

No, there was somebody that played them and sent in this case. All of a sudden, this left wing ecosphere, these maniacs, they're now equating for whatever the reason it may be that this Jane Doe is someone by the name of Katie Johnson, and Katie Johnson is a real person. But I've never worked on the case of Katie Johnson. I've never looked at the file. I don't know anything about this file that's being handled by somebody else. It's being handled by Alan Garten, who's general counsel at the Trump Organization. I have no knowledge of it. In fact, my understanding is that Lisa Bloom, daughter of Gloria Allred, was the lawyer for Katie Johnson. Now, that case was abandoned or it was dismissed. Okay, fine. What does that have to do with me? What does it have to do with the fact that there was a case that the attorneys walked away from because it was not a legitimate case? Why is all of a sudden, Mary, this Jane Doe, Katie Johnson, they're not the same. Lisa Bloom, I believe, acknowledged that they're not the same people. And it doesn't make any sense either that they would be the same person. Why would there be two cases? So you're saying that Michael Cohen threatened this Jane Doe and so they abandoned it. And I need to try to figure out on a timeline whether that allegation is before the Katie Johnson case was filed or after. Was it, Were they going on simultaneously? Patrick, none of this makes any sense at all. And again, how much easier would it be for me just to say, oh, yeah, oh, yeah, I threatened this Jane Doe's lawyer and so on, and they managed to dismiss it, right? Pump myself up, you know, like, you know, like, you know, a boss, right? Like a, like a capo. It's not true. It's not what happened? The lawyers, the lawyers walked away from it because it wasn't a legitimate case, plain and simple, and because I refused to take that opportunity within which to beat up on the President. Now all of a sudden, once again, Michael's a bad guy. He's bending the knee for Trump, he's asking for pardons. He's asking for something he wants back into the fold. Hey, Michael Cohen here. Look, you all know who I am, Donald Trump's former personal attorney and fixer. A lot of things have taken place over the years. A lot of questions need to be answered. You may have a lot of questions, so do me a favor. Anytime you want to ask me a question, feel free to reach out to me on the next.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Do you think you care too much of what people think?

[Michael Cohen]

I think everybody cares.

[Patrick Bet-David]

No, but. But there's difference. No, I think there's a limit. And to me, I learned a long time ago, like, one of the things I put in my, in my business plan is knowing who I care cares about, what I think, you know, and what I'm saying, and who I could care less about. And in life, if you're not too careful, if you care too much about the noise creators, what they think about you, you're going to be held hostage by them. You'll make some dumb decisions.

[Michael Cohen]

Well, I'm not so sure about that. I think what it does tell me more. I think it sharpens me. It doesn't make me make dumb decisions. It makes me more sensitive.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Sensitive decisions.

[Michael Cohen]

It's okay to be sensitive, but it doesn't mean that they're reckless decisions. I am receiving DMs on a daily basis. It's almost like, you know, I was on Charlemagne the God once, on Sending Central, and I was doing the mean tweets, right? I can't begin to tell you the number of some of the vilest comments being made, all about something that is absolutely 100% untrue. Just because you want to believe something doesn't make it factually accurate. All right, Imagine if your subscribers, if your followers, people who have been loyal to Patrick, right? They think that you walk on water now, all of a sudden, writing you some of the vilest shit that you could possibly imagine, because there are people spreading lies about you. And then all of a sudden, that lie gets metastasized into the next person who's using that lie to build subscribers and profiting from it off of your back. But by the way, it doesn't stop there. It's like that Brex hair commercial. But wait, there's more. And then so on and so on and so on. And next thing you know, there's like, there's like 10, 12, 14, 16 people, all of whom are attacking you 24, 7, right? We're talking about two individuals that died in Minneapolis. We're talking about Trump's capturing of Maduro. We're talking about Greenland. We're talking about A multitude of issues, far bigger, far greater, far more important than Michael Cohen, and yet not with these folks. Because Michael Cohen makes them money.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah. I mean, that's the business. You ever read the rules for radicals? You know the rules. Okay. So, I mean, that's a business model. That's how a lot of media companies are built off of. Right. And they know how to destroy your life if they want to. But I want to go back to that question. When I said, who do you trust and who trusts you? Right. And I said, outside of family, and you said, you don't know. You want to support us. And you kind of went through how emotional and tough it is to be in a place like them. And I said, how do you feel about it? Because I think as a man, you know, there are a few people who, as a man, for your identity, not everybody will understand this, that you want them to look at you in a certain way. It's how your wife looks at you. It's how your kids look at you, boys a different look than daughters. It's how your enemies look at you. It's a look you want from your enemies. It's how your peers look at you. It's how your boss investors look at you. Those, each individually are very important.

[Michael Cohen]

So then let me. Then go back to your question, please. I still have my oldest and closest friends. They have never shied away from me. Not when I was with Trump, not when I was against Trump, not when I was with Midas, not when I'm no longer with Midas. My friends are my friends. They know the true essence. They know that's important. I mean, I have friends since, you know, the age of 10. I mean, you know, you're talking about almost 50 years, right. Whereas close today, as we were when we were stupid kids riding our bicycles, I've gone through, like, everybody in life. I've had friends who have done incredibly well. And I have friends who unfortunately passed away from various different things, from whether it's cancer to drug overdose. You know, I miss them as well. Right. Because they would be here for me right now. But I still have so many of my college friends, my law school friends, even friends from when I was in Otisville, I still speak to. And they don't walk away. So I do have that support.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Respect to those guys, by the way. Big time, major respect for them.

[Michael Cohen]

Big time. I tell that to them all the time. Yeah, yeah, I tell it to them all the time. But I'm there for them as well. You know, they have moments in Their lives, too, where things are great and then, like everything, there's a fall. Right. The ED medication is wearing off.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That is so funny. Who do you think is more loyal? Of all the people you've done business with, who do you think is more loyal to his people? Donald Trump or anybody else you ever met?

[Michael Cohen]

Well, okay, that's a loaded question for me because he's the only person I ever worked for in my life, other than the very first lawyer who I worked in the law firm. As I told you, I did tort litigation and medical malpractice. Other than him, I've worked for myself. I had people working for me.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You've been around a lot of people. You've been around a lot of people. You're, you're a guy. You're also a tough guy. You're not. You're in New York, so you're, you're, you don't become taxi industry medallions. That's a mob. No, I don't mean mob. Like gangsters. Mobs. Not what I mean. It's a tough business. Sure. It's not a, it's not like you can't be in that and be a lightweight making it. No, especially in New York. Those things are very, very valuable. I think the second biggest city I would put for that would probably be Vegas. And it's not even.

[Michael Cohen]

No, it's not Chicago.

[Patrick Bet-David]

It's Chicago. Right, so.

[Michael Cohen]

And then Boston, Philadelphia.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So mean, if you're in that space, you better be tough or else you're not going to make it. So you met a lot of guys. You met a lot of people, and you look at them and say, okay, all right, all right, all right. Now, 20, 26, looking at Trump, his approval rating amongst them, amongst Republicans. Super high, right? Super high. 94, 92. Whatever the number.

[Michael Cohen]

Well, it's, it's, it's dropped down a little bit. I think it's 92%.

[Patrick Bet-David]

92%.

[Michael Cohen]

Used to be 96. Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

It's insane. But even to say, if you're in the 70s, you're good, you're in the 80s, you're good. He's 92, 96. And then you're seeing.

[Michael Cohen]

By the way, you're gonna get me canceled again for making a comment. Yeah. That amongst the Republicans. And the funny thing is, then I'll go and I'll show them a statistic and I'll say, but that's not me. That's the Ipsos poll that's showing it F you, Michael. Right. You're back trying to appease Donald Trump. It's incredible. I almost can't say anything that is flattering to me.

[Patrick Bet-David]

It's not gonna stop, though.

[Michael Cohen]

No, it won't stop me.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah, it's not gonna stop, but it's about, what are you solving for? So let me go back to it. 2026, JD Vance said stuff. I'm a never Trumper. 10 years ago, whatever it was, when.

[Michael Cohen]

He called him America's Hitler.

[Patrick Bet-David]

He did, but he said, I'm a never Trumper. Like, I'm never, you know. You know, when saying never Trump is like, I'm never doing anything with him. He's the vp, right? Rubio going back and forth. Right. Ted Cruz inside, working with him. Right.

[Michael Cohen]

Called him a sniveling coward, a lot of things, but.

[Patrick Bet-David]

But the point is, he's also a guy that, hey, you come and you give respect, you're back in a circle. Let's do business together, let's move on. And there is that side of him, and some people don't have that at all. There are people. You cross them once, you ain't never getting it. That's not him.

[Michael Cohen]

No.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So he does have a side That's. I don't know if I want to say it. Forgiving. I don't know if I want to say, you know, his closest. Closest guy right now, it's probably Marco Rubio. I mean, do you.

[Michael Cohen]

No, no, no.

[Patrick Bet-David]

One of the closest guy, you know. You know, I still think his.

[Michael Cohen]

One of his closest is probably Steve Witkoff. There's a history that goes back. I have a history with Steve Witkoff outside of Trump, you know, real estate, another guy, and our children are all friends, you know, and so, I mean.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Are you still good with Steve or do you.

[Michael Cohen]

If I saw him, sure. Howard Lutnick. I know Howard longer than I know Trump. My daughter and his son went to nursery school together. It's 25 years. I know Howard, all right, 25 years. I saw him after Trump became president, came over, gave me a hug, the whole bid, gave him a kiss, hello, how are you? You know, the whole bid. I have no problem with him or Alison, his wife.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Why are they so loyal to him?

[Michael Cohen]

What's that?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Why are they so loyal to him?

[Michael Cohen]

Well, there's many different reasons. One, they believe in what Trump's agenda is. And two, it's probably very financially lucrative, you know, for all of them to be in the inner circle.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay, so fair to say that now, but going back to it with Trump, 20, 26, how important would you say? Like, if you were to say, one of the most loyal guys I've met to his people is Trump, where would you rank him?

[Michael Cohen]

One of the most loyal to his.

[Patrick Bet-David]

People that are loyal to him.

[Michael Cohen]

Let's say, out of 10 people, you.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Met a lot of guys, where would you rank him towards?

[Michael Cohen]

Probably towards the top.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Towards the top, sure. Okay, sure. Would you have said that in 20, 20? 20, 21?

[Michael Cohen]

Absolutely. By the way, if you look at my testimony that when I was on the stand, and again, I did not volunteer to be on that stand, I was subpoenaed, by the way, would I have done the 60, 90 days like Peter Navarro or like Allen Weisselberg, had I had somebody in my camp? Hell, yeah. Certainly. It's a lot better than the six years that I got from that idiot judge. Right off of what? Off of doing an NDA. Right. I mean, that's really what it was about. About an NDA, about the Russia hoax. Had I had even just a shred of loyalty thrown back to me, some care, some knowledge that, hey, let's protect Michael, let's put our arms around him. That's what a mob boss would do. Don't take the guy in and just say, oh, yeah, point over there. Hey, no, no, no, look at him. Don't look at me. Stop looking at me. Look at him over there. No, that's not right. That's not. I would never have testified. I didn't want to. In fact, when I said I felt pressured and coerced, I felt coerced. I was under subpoena. I felt pressured. I didn't want to do it. I just didn't want to. It's my personal feelings, and I'm entitled to them.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Absolutely, you are. So if these guys, these guys who were in Trump's ears, let's just say that they turned you against him or the other way around, turned him against you, whatever it may be. And let's just say you know that for a fact.

[Michael Cohen]

I do.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay, fair. If you know that for a fact, don't you think time's gonna be on your side? Don't you think within time he's gonna realize what happened?

[Michael Cohen]

My hope.

[Patrick Bet-David]

No, no. But what I'm saying is. So what I'm saying is, even in that moment, to say, did this guy. I have 100% of his back. Don't you think? And I want to finish this, and we can move on to the next.

[Michael Cohen]

No. Because I have a response for this. It's going to blow you away.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So what I'm saying is, in that Moment you're like, what is he doing? Patient, 3 months, 6 months, 12 months, 18 months, 24 months. Then he sees the guys that did this, Then he sees how they did. And then he sits there and says, but that Michael guy never flipped. But that Michael guy never threw me under the bus. But that Michael guy. You know what? Call Michael. Don't you think time would have strengthened.

[Michael Cohen]

The relationship as that time? All right. When this is happening to you in real time, you're thinking post fact, and I agree with you. Post fact probably would have been better.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That's what makes it tough, though. That's what makes it hard.

[Michael Cohen]

No, not what makes it tough. It makes it impossible. Because you're living in a world.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah.

[Michael Cohen]

I can assure you this has never happened to you. In fact, it's probably never happened to any of your, any of your listeners either. You can't imagine what it feels like. It's not an anvil dropping out like in the roadrunner from the sky and squashing you into a.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Chose that job, though. That comes with the territory. It's not an easy job.

[Michael Cohen]

What job are you referring to?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Don't choose to go into the administration. Don't.

[Michael Cohen]

I didn't go into the administration.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Choose to stay supporting. When he's at that level. I mean, this is the most targeted man.

[Michael Cohen]

It wasn't politics in our life thing, though. It wasn't anything that we had done while he was in office. This was everything pre. None of it was political. It's. This was all pre.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I understand.

[Michael Cohen]

My point is. So what was I. What was I looking for? What was I hoping for? I was hoping that the man who I revered, man who I had worked for, had blasts with. We used to travel together. Laugh. I don't see Trump laughing anymore. I don't see him smiling. I don't see him having a good time.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I think he's having the time of his life.

[Michael Cohen]

No, no, he's not. He's not. He's not laughing. When we were together, he used to enjoy everything. He used to smile more, he used to laugh more. That I assure you. You know, there was a moment when Trump had become president elect and I had said, I don't want to go into D.C. i'll be there every day for you, if that's what you want. You want, I'm going to be back in the city. You want me to bring you like a potato knish from Katz's Dell? You want a dirty water dog? Whatever you want. I'll get onto a train. I'll get into the car. I'll drive up. I don't care. Whatever you need, I'll be there. But I want to be personal attorney to the president. And I remember him turning around after he decided that Reince Priebus was going to be his chief of staff. He says to Reince, what role is Michael playing? Because at first, he didn't want me to be on the outside. Trump likes familiarity, and he had no familiarity there. Reince Priebus was loading the place up with his people because he thought that he was going to be able to make Trump into a puppet, a puppet president. And Trump likes familiar. Wrong. Yeah, damn straight. That's why he got shit canned so fast. Yeah, Trump likes familiarity. Unfortunately, he did allow me the job that I wanted.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Maybe it was a test. Maybe he was testing you.

[Michael Cohen]

Could be. But he said to Reince, find Michael the right position. In fact, he wanted me to be assistant deputy counsel under. What was his name, the lawyer. I visualize him. He was from the Big Dwayne Law Firm. Anyway, no, thank you, sir. I actually have some other ideas and ways that I would be able to protect you on the outside from all of this nonsense that we all know is going to come. He said to Reince, let me be clear. You find Michael a job. This is his words, not mine. Because the only reason you're in that spot is because of him. I know you 10 seconds. I know him 10 years. Those are Trump's words. That was the loyalty about me. That was the loyalty I expected. You're gonna listen to Reince Priebus, who was dubbed in the office rancid penis. I mean, who the hell is listening to Reince Priebus? He did. And to whose detriment? Mine, by the way. My hope. My hope is that the President is actually listening to this podcast, turns around, says, you know what? Yeah, I missed the guy, too. Give me a call. He still has my cell number. It actually was once. It was once a Trump number.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You know, he's the type of guy.

[Michael Cohen]

That would call, and I would take it.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Have you tried?

[Michael Cohen]

And I would take it.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Have you tried calling?

[Michael Cohen]

I can't do that.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Why?

[Michael Cohen]

It can't. Why? Because maybe I will. Maybe I will.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Can I tell you why? Why?

[Michael Cohen]

I'm not 100 certain I know what I would even say at this point.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I think neither one of you guys. It's just going to be the conversation. You'll know within the first two seconds.

[Michael Cohen]

You're probably right about that.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You don't know until you make the call. But to me.

[Michael Cohen]

You know what? I was also, by the way, not to interrupt you. You know what else also surprised me? My relationship with the kids, especially. Don't. And then Ivanka and Eric as well. I mean, I sat on Eric's board. I got canceled a long time ago for saying that, too. Oh, Eric. You know, Eric Trump was stealing money from the charity for St. Jude's Church. I sat on that board. He didn't steal money from anybody. Okay, let me be crystal clear. Eric did not. Don. I saved Don in countless, countless scenarios. Ivanka, incredibly close with her as well.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Till today.

[Michael Cohen]

No. Okay. And when I see her sometimes in the city, she turns around, looks the other way, and it kills me.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That's the same look I'm talking about.

[Michael Cohen]

That's the same person who came to my apartment, I cooked my famous world class lasagna for, and we were fighting on the floor like siblings for the last piece, even though I'm the one who made it, because she wanted me to wrap it for her for work the next day. That's how much and how significant a relationship that we had, or all of us. And then not one of them to reach out, to turn around, to say, I'm not going to let dad do this to you. You know, tell you an interesting story. I was sitting in my office, Ivanka's old office on the 26th floor, and Don, Ivanka and Eric walk in. It was right after the launch, right after the very famous escalator scenario where he made comments about Mexico and Mexicans. Maybe two days or so after that, three days. And they turn around and they said to me, you need to get dad to stop, to withdraw. He can't run for the presidency. Donald's sister, Judge Barry, called me and said, michael, what the hell are you doing? I turn around and said, you, Honor, you're about the only one that Donald actually has any fear of. And he did. He was. His sister petrified him. You know, not in the.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Of course. I get it, right? In the familial, in the similar. Like the baseball coach guy.

[Michael Cohen]

Damn straight.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Right?

[Michael Cohen]

They asked me to go speak to dad and get him to withdraw. I said, no chance. He's never going to withdraw. You know it. If you're like, thanks to you, their words, not mine. And if they want to be honest about it, they'll acknowledge it. Thanks to you. The legacy that we're going to be left won't be the Trump Organization, it'll be the rump organization. I said, you're not. Don't be so Certain. Meanwhile, they're all kicking ass right now. All right. Thanks to the rump organization, not one of them had the decency to pick up a phone and call my daughter. And Tiffany as an example.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I'm not surprised, though.

[Michael Cohen]

Have been friends since they were in their early teens, went to college together.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Are you surprised?

[Michael Cohen]

I am.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Why are you surprised?

[Michael Cohen]

Because I would. Because I would make the call.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You're not Trump. You're not Trump.

[Michael Cohen]

I never said I was, though.

[Patrick Bet-David]

No, no, that's why you would make the call. Because, you know, I'm not surprised at.

[Michael Cohen]

All that the kids did.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I'm not surprised at all.

[Michael Cohen]

Okay.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I'm not. In my opinion, I could be wrong. And people have their own right to write the comment. And saying. You're so. This. Totally get it. My opinion is I'm not surprised because that's the part. It's why phrases like ride or die. It's that phrase. It's that part where, hey, you know, it totally understand the relationship. But all this stuff. You crossed the line with my dad. You're my enemy. It's a, you know.

[Michael Cohen]

Did I cross the line with him or did they cross the line with me?

[Patrick Bet-David]

It doesn't matter.

[Michael Cohen]

But, but you gotta always stand by your family.

[Patrick Bet-David]

But, but, but, but the part with.

[Michael Cohen]

It doesn't mean it's not gonna hurt.

[Patrick Bet-David]

No, no. You have the right to. I totally. And I feel the sincerity. I, you know, I totally feel the relationship makes me want to try that lasagna. That, by the way, that is a lasagna guy. That good. Don't BS Me because I like.

[Michael Cohen]

I'll show you a photo.

[Patrick Bet-David]

All right? Okay. Okay. So maybe. Maybe we got to test that out here and see how it works out.

[Michael Cohen]

Why do you have a kitchen in the studio?

[Patrick Bet-David]

We're down the street. We'll go cook it and get a feel for it. But going back to it. Going back to it to me is, you know, a leader. Okay? A leader, a coach, a politician, a military leader. When do you think they stop testing their generals?

[Michael Cohen]

Never.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That's the point. That's the point.

[Michael Cohen]

Oh, I didn't say it the right way. That would be a net. Never for a thousand.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Never four thousand. But what do you think it is for Trump? Even more. Right. Okay, so to me.

[Michael Cohen]

But you see, as the president.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah.

[Michael Cohen]

The way I see it, he's the most powerful man on the planet.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Sure.

[Michael Cohen]

And the most powerful man on the planet should fear nothing and nobody.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Oh. That's not how life works, though. No way.

[Michael Cohen]

Okay.

[Patrick Bet-David]

The most powerful man in the planet has the most enemies targeting him to destroy him. So there's a layer where you go to sleep and you're around your friends and family. You're breaking bread.

[Michael Cohen]

So then where do I sit? So where do I sit? In the. In the living room. Do I sit, you know, as I used to, in the seat next to him, as I used to, or now do I sit in the bathroom in the back with mush? Right. Stop looking at the dice. Remember, that's your Bronx Tale.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah, of course. Of course. Chaz is a friend. That's a. That's a.

[Michael Cohen]

He's so great, by the way.

[Patrick Bet-David]

He's phenomenal.

[Michael Cohen]

Phenomenal.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Phenomenal. Have you been to the show? The. The. The Bronx Tale Show? He does.

[Michael Cohen]

No.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Oh, you. You've never.

[Michael Cohen]

No. I can pretty much do the movie by heart.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Continues doing the One Man Show. Go to it once.

[Michael Cohen]

Where's it at?

[Patrick Bet-David]

He does it all over. Broadway, New York. He does it all the way there. Phenomenal.

[Michael Cohen]

Chaz, I'm coming.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Phenomenal. You got to go see how it is. It's incredible. So. But to me, it's. That's your choice. Your choice is what level of pain do you want to tolerate to maintain that level of.

[Michael Cohen]

So you think I should actually make a call to the White House and asked to be seen?

[Patrick Bet-David]

What's your outcome?

[Michael Cohen]

I could either get a yes, which would make me happy, but what's your outcome? What's the reason for the visit?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yes.

[Michael Cohen]

Well, twofold. One, something that I'm also being attacked by, to say them again, the radical left lunatics that are lying. Michael wants a pardon. Okay, yeah, I would take a pardon, but I'm not asking for a pardon for me. I'm asking a pardon for 70 million Americans who are nonviolent felons here in America right now that are treated like second class citizens. I call this. I actually wrote a letter, which I did send in, by the way, to the White House. I call it Tipo T E P O Trump Emancipation Proclamation Order. It would give a second chance to 70 million nonviolent felons who have finished their sentence completely. No restitution, no supervised release, no home confinement. They are done. So there is no commutation of sentences. It is merely no longer being listed as a felon. That prevents you from getting work, having a bank account, having the ability to reintegrate into society, which is exactly what they want. I have that in front of him. He would, you know, here's a question for you. And I do not diminish the disgusting part of America's history where slavery was rampant. You know how many slaves existed in America during slavery? Do you know most people don't just under 3 million, 70 million Americans carry the stigma of felony convictions, that scarlet letter, bank accounts, employment, housing, etc. This would give them the ability. You know who I authored? I co authored this with a very longtime, dear friend of mine, Jesse Jackson Jr. I've been friends with his father for decades, and through his father, I met Jesse Jr. Who is a felon himself, former congressmember. We co authored this and I sent it in. So if I had the opportunity to sit with my former boss, my former friend, who knows, maybe 70 million Americans, mostly minority, like when I created. I created the National Diversity Coalition for Trump. Diversity bring back. So that it's not an issue. Oh, Donald, you know, Donald is racist. Donald doesn't believe in diversity. It's not true. It's not true. Give me the ability within which to do this for 70 million Americans. So I would have that opportunity to sit with him, and then I would have the opportunity to look my old friend in the face and ask, is there maybe something privately you would like to say to me? Right? Maybe just between you and me, not for the cameras, not for, you know, not for media, for me. You think maybe you want to say something? What? I went through 51 days of solitary confinement. The first three days, no food. When they put me the second time in because I refused to waive my First Amendment constitutional right and not publish my first book, disloyal. They put me in a freezer for about three hours. You know what it's like when you're so cold and you're chattering so hard your teeth feel like they're going to fall out of your jaw? You think that that goes away? You think that's not a trigger for PTSD? Oh, I know. I have it. I've had 20 different people, friends, family, whose wives, their therapists. Like, how is it you're not seeing a therapist? And I was like, well, it's just like many things, I just don't believe in it. It's just me. I believe people should see therapists. It's just not for me. Maybe you should.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Who? I think you should make that call. And I don't know what's going to happen, but I think you should make that call. The risk he's going to have, and I don't know if he cares, I actually think he's reached a status right now that, remember, when I don't know when it was that 2019, 2020, that if you were a Trump ally, you were worried, am I going to get sued? Am I going to do this? Am I? People were afraid to be. You couldn't go anywhere wearing the MAGA stuff nowadays. People are, like, accepted the fact that he got reelected. Don't get me wrong, there's still a lot of chaos behind it as well. Just two weeks ago, he called Elizabeth Warren, said, hey, what do you think about the 10% credit card? You know? And she's like, I was shocked. He called me.

[Michael Cohen]

I got canceled for that one, too. I turn around and said, good for him.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah.

[Michael Cohen]

By the way, can I ask you this? So let's just say, let me go back to what people consider me to be, that, you know, lefty, anti Trump guy, right? And I turn around and I say, you know what? Good for him for calling Elizabeth Warren. Good for him for having Chuck the Schmuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries come to his office. By the way, I never liked either of them, ever. Not when I was doing my in and I'm midas. He'd be like, why do you always have to say that? I said, I just don't like them. I think that they're worthless. They're faux outrage and anger all the time with their fist. I just don't like them. I'm allowed not to like somebody, right? So we would laugh about it. Why does that make me bad? Because I turn around, I said, good for him for having fortitude to pick up the phone and to call somebody who has been, just, say, less than complimentary. Why does that make me a bad guy? Why is everything that I say. Somebody has to make a determination about the quality of my soul and character. I'm under this microscope from everybody. Everybody thinks they have a right to judge me. Why? There's only one person that's going to be judging me, and that person's not sitting here on this planet, that I can assure you. So maybe people should learn to keep their judgments to themselves. Listen to the facts. Facts matter. Innuendo doesn't mean anything. Everybody has an opinion. Good. Now take your opinion and keep it right. I don't know if I'm allowed to say the things on your podcast on my own. Stick it up your ass. Yeah, all right. I'm not interested in your opinion. Even if it's positive towards me or negative. Just keep it to yourself. Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean you have to express it. And especially to those that are attacking me wildly every single day. Shame on you. Shame on you. And the funny thing is, they all claim. They all claim to be these devout Christians. They're all devout Christians. Really? You think Jesus would say that? Let me be very clear. When I was in Otisville, despite being Jewish, I became very friendly with the deacon that was there. Deacon Davis. Truly a phenomenal man. Much nicer than the rabbi that was there. No, no, no. Really. Much, much, much nicer than the rabbi. He was a terrible human being. The deacon.

[Patrick Bet-David]

The rabbi.

[Michael Cohen]

The rabbi, terrible guy. The deacon couldn't be kinder, nicer, more caring for not just the inmates, but me particularly. Right. Because he realized I was suffering. You know, there was a lot of anger and hatred. I was the highest. Highest profiled inmate in the bureau of prison when I was there.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Who was. Who else was there with.

[Michael Cohen]

Well, who was there with me? Yeah, Mike, the situation from Jersey Shore. Senator Dean Skilos, Billy McFarland. A Fyre Festival.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Oh, fire festival.

[Michael Cohen]

Yeah, yeah, we had. We had.

[Patrick Bet-David]

He did the thing with Ja Rule, I think. The big party.

[Michael Cohen]

Yeah, that's correct.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah.

[Michael Cohen]

Yeah, we had a couple of pretty significant notables. Joe Pericoco, who was Andrew Cuomo's chief of staff, he ultimately had his conviction overturned. Good. Thank God. He's a great guy. There were some significant notables, but I was the highest profile inmate in the Bureau of prison. In fact, I had to build my own fence.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Let me ask this.

[Michael Cohen]

I learned how to do a lot of things while I was there.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I mean, the deacon, that's. That's a.

[Michael Cohen]

He was the kindest. Respect. Respect. Damn straight. There was also a. A nurse. She's a. That was. That was there. Who also was beyond. Beyond kind to me because I. I have blood pressure issues, believe it or not, which I developed there. She would make sure that I was properly given my blood pressure medication. And then there were times where just the stress becomes overwhelming and, you know, she'd make sure. If it wasn't for her, I probably wouldn't be here today. I write about her in the book, too.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Very cool. Respect.

[Michael Cohen]

Respect is right.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Respect. Respect for them. By the way, at what point when he started working with the President, did you know he's gonna run for office from OCD?

[Michael Cohen]

2011.

[Patrick Bet-David]

2011.

[Michael Cohen]

2011.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What happened in 11?

[Michael Cohen]

So, okay, here we go. Ready? To all the. To all the people who are maybe beginning to have a shred of compassion for me. Right. 2011, I started a website. Let me go back. Take it to the exam. I'm reading A newspaper. I do like he does every single day. And I'm reading the newspaper and there was a survey. Who would you like to see run for the presidency in 2012 against Barack Obama? 5% said Donald Trump. That expression on your face. 2012, 2011, 2011, time matters.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay, how many people voted? Was it a good sample?

[Michael Cohen]

To be honest with you, I don't remember. But it was about 1,000 people. Okay. Or whatever. It's a fair survey. And it was in the newspaper. So I rip it out and he gets in. Now, mind you, this is, you know, before 8:00am and I see he's in the office. A boss. Want to see something pretty freaking cool? Yes. What do you got? What do you. What do you got? And I turn around, I was like, all right, check this out. I hand it to him and I highlight it. So brings his eyes directly to what? And he's like, huh, what do you think? I said, I think it'd be pretty freaking cool. He goes, you know, I'm kind of bored of all of this. How many more deals? How many more golf courses, how many more buildings, how many more licensing deals? Let the kids do that. I was like, you know, we're in the middle of a couple right now. Some pretty big ones like the Doral, right? And he had bought the ones in Scotland and in Ireland. Doonbeg. He's like, yeah. He goes, explore this. Congratulations, you got another job. Now mind you, during the time period that I was with Trump, not only was I his personal attorney, Consiglieri, as they wanted to call me, I was on the board of the Miss Universe organization. There were only three of us, Donald Weisselberg and myself.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Weisselberg, yes.

[Michael Cohen]

The three of us were the board of Miss Universe along with NBC that co owned it. I was co president of Trump Productions, which was involved in the Apprentice and also other reality television with a guy named Larry Glick who runs golf. I sat on six different boards, real estate building boards, where I was the treasurer, because I'm very, very sharp with a pencil, like insanely sharp. So I had plenty going on with that. And it was, to say the least, another incredibly big job. So I meet this attorney out of Dallas. In fact, I still have the book. It's in a leather bound three ring notebook which I will give to his library on loan. I want to continue to own. It's mine, right? But that set up the future.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Is this a lawyer of Andy Beale or no relation to Beal?

[Michael Cohen]

No relation to anybody who's a lawyer. He may actually Work for anybody? I don't know. But I was introduced to him. It's broken down into every single state and to every county who you need to speak to. It's the most thorough book. And then I ended up going to Iowa to learn about the first and call. We ultimately decided. Let me rephrase that. Donald ultimately decided. I certainly concurred. We had negotiated another season for the Apprentice where he was a guarantee of $60 million for that one season.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Stop it.

[Michael Cohen]

Don't.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Stop it.

[Michael Cohen]

Truth.

[Patrick Bet-David]

One season. 60 million.

[Michael Cohen]

Respect.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Beautiful.

[Michael Cohen]

Say it.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Good for him.

[Michael Cohen]

Say it. Respect. Damn straight.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Good for him.

[Michael Cohen]

Damn straight. 60 mil. Here's Trump's line to me, Michael. No one walks away from Hollywood. Hollywood walks away from you. I can't walk away from. And I was like, I wouldn't be the boss. Right. I wouldn't either. But he goes, if you stand with me shoulder to shoulder in 2015, I give you my word, we're gonna do it. And from 2011 on, from the sweeps is when it was the day of the sweeps, he made the decision not to go in 2012 for the presidency to 2015. We talked about it every single day, plotting it out every single day.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Plotting it or stuff. Like, what do you think about what he said? I wouldn't do it this way. I would do this. Was it that kind of conversation?

[Michael Cohen]

Strategy?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay.

[Michael Cohen]

On everything. Such as?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Give us examples on everything.

[Michael Cohen]

Okay. The war in Iran. Yeah. One of the things that he turned around, he goes, what sort of an idiot sends your troops and we don't keep the oil? He goes, why are we not keeping the oil? He goes, michael, have you ever heard of the adage, to the victor go the spoils? Why are we walking away from it? I said, I don't know. He's an idiot. So he's like, I keep it. I said, you do realize then we'd have to surround it with the military. He goes, so what? To the victor go the spoils. Just one example. These are all, by the way, if Trump would call in right now, he'd turn around and tell you, yeah, I did say that. I absolutely did. These are the sort of things that we did. I bring it back, the weave to when I turn around and I was saying about that article about the 5%. So I started something called should trumprun.com did it on my own with a guy named Stu. Funded it, the whole bit within, I don't know, 72 hours at 10 million people responded, stop it. Don't tell me stop. Respect.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Go to. Should Trump run dot com.

[Michael Cohen]

That's right. Should Trump run dot com.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Wow. It was 72 hours.

[Michael Cohen]

In 72 hours, it was like, how.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Did you advertise it? How did it get out?

[Michael Cohen]

I don't know. I just put it out there, made a couple announcements on, like television, things like that. I used my relationships in media.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Go to images, go to images. Just go to images. Seeing which one it was. Okay. It's not up because it's been many years. Okay, so should Trump run.com?

[Michael Cohen]

I'M sure there are articles. If you go into that, go to.

[Patrick Bet-David]

News Wrap, go back and go to news 2019, 2018. Go to that one the second we are right there and then see if the domain is there. Should Trump run.com right there? Months early, Michael Cohen had helped set up a website called Short Terminal on Long Island. That's a long time. Congressman Cohen also traveled to explore the protocol. Interesting. So you're behind. So you're behind closed doors, checking the terrain to see if there's a interest and appetite.

[Michael Cohen]

Amen to that. And I come back to him and I said, boss, you're much more popular than you think. I got that look, you know the look, right? Perched lips, the eyes sort of squint. He's so happy. And his happiness in those days made me happy. And we laughed our asses off. Where he turned around, he goes, can you imagine if we pull it off? Can you imagine? I'm like, yeah, and I think you can do it. Don't say that. You're jinxing it. I was like, I'm not jinxing shit. I'm like this with the conversations that I had. Which again brings us all the way back to the beginning of this podcast when Todd Blanche asked me, you hate Trump. No, I don't. No, I don't. There are a bunch of questions Todd Blanche probably could have asked me during that trial that probably would have gotten it dismissed, or I should say a hung jury. But that's neither here nor there.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Very interesting. So you were involved fully behind. Was he a superstitious guy? Is he a big time superstition?

[Michael Cohen]

He is superstitious.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That's sports. That's baseball, by the way. Superstitious baseball fans. Baseball players are super superstitious.

[Michael Cohen]

Could you imagine? You see them going like this, like a Yankees game, right? You know, when, when it's like three and two in the, you know, the ninth inning or something.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Baseball is like the ultimate superstitious.

[Michael Cohen]

Sure.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What, what, what else about him behind closed doors that you appreciate? Where you're like, you know, as much as I see, like, what were rules? There's certain non negotiables. I have that when I do business. I'm curious, what were some of his non negotiables? Like, hey, Michael, we're never doing business with that guy. Was it ever things like never will, never will, never do this, or was it never?

[Michael Cohen]

Okay, never was not a word.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Never was not a word.

[Michael Cohen]

No.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay.

[Michael Cohen]

There's nothing that is never to him. Just because, like, when we tried to buy. I was involved in that. Tried to buy the Buffalo Bills. We're in negotiation. We went, we met with the NFL, reviewed the documentation behind it in order to put in an offer. I knew we weren't going to get it because politics or no, it wasn't politics. It was Terry Pegula, who is a native, ended up buying it. And he outbid Trump by like $700 million. I mean, he had just made billions off of fracking. And he is a local Buffalo native. And there was. He outbid everybody, right? Trump by like 700 million.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And can you pull up the sky, Terry? I wanna know. Oh, there it is. Terry Pegula. So zoom in a little bit. He owns the Bills and NHL team as well. Buffalo Sabres.

[Michael Cohen]

He owns the Buffalo Sabres as well.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What kind of money does he have?

[Michael Cohen]

Seven billion.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Oh, he's a seven billion guy now.

[Michael Cohen]

He's. Now he's a pisha compared to Trump.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Well, I mean, you don't know the name, so you.

[Michael Cohen]

Oh, I do.

[Patrick Bet-David]

By the way, interestingly, the average person doesn't know Terrence.

[Michael Cohen]

Okay, let me give you a little factoid. You know who his daughter is? Jessica Pegula, the tennis star.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Oh, wow.

[Michael Cohen]

Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay. So now I know his daughter.

[Michael Cohen]

So you know who the richest one in tennis is?

[Patrick Bet-David]

She is billionaire Jessica Pegula playing against. There you go. Buffalo, New York. Boca Raton.

[Michael Cohen]

That's right.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So they live down here. They live in Boca.

[Michael Cohen]

They live everywhere.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay.

[Michael Cohen]

You know, when you have 7 billion plus dollars, you can live wherever.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That's actually a very good point. That's a very good point. When you. When you.

[Michael Cohen]

Hold on. Here we go.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That kind of money.

[Michael Cohen]

Ready?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah.

[Michael Cohen]

Respect.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Respect. So it's very obvious, Michael, from the. I'm not gonna lie to you. I had no idea where the conversation would go. I'm like, you know, when you and I talk. We talked three weeks ago. Yeah, but the first time we talked. When was the first time?

[Michael Cohen]

Oh, my God. The first time we talked, I think, was like two years ago. What was it about?

[Patrick Bet-David]

What do we talk about? What Was it about when you and I spoke?

[Michael Cohen]

No, I think it was about my second book, Revenge.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay.

[Michael Cohen]

May have just come out. Both New York Times bestsellers. Disloyal number one, Revenge number six. Thank you very little. Yeah, there was a question or an issue there that piqued your curiosity. And I remember you reached out, but you then reached out, or somebody reached out in regard to my Michael Wolf interview on my Mayor Culpa podcast.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Right, right.

[Michael Cohen]

And something again, sparked an interest. And I don't remember if we had a lengthy conversation or maybe it was just by. By text message, but then. Oh, about a week or so ago after I started getting canceled. That was last Friday. Yeah, you reached out. And be honest, I was thankful that you did because, you know, it's a very troubling place to live between two polar opposites. It's sad that you can't have an opinion today without being brutally beaten by one side or both sides.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Let me ask you if. Let's just say the visual. The visual is you call, they accept the call. You talk, you go to the White House, there's a picture of you and him.

[Michael Cohen]

So what.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What happens next to you?

[Michael Cohen]

I could give two shits.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Okay, that's good.

[Michael Cohen]

How about that one?

[Patrick Bet-David]

That's good.

[Michael Cohen]

Especially if I'm successful.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah.

[Michael Cohen]

In that $70 million Trump Emancipation Proclamation Order.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yep.

[Michael Cohen]

70 million Americans. I'm willing to. To take the hits from these asses, these radical left maniacs, these liars. I'm okay to take the hit on that. By the way, the. One of the loudest detractors against me is a felon himself, a nonviolent felon that will benefit from that Trump Emancipation Proclamation order. That is historic. That is legacy stuff. When you can fix the lives of 70 million Americans. 7, 0. It's not just them. What about their families? What about their spouses, about their children? Why should. If the judge gave you a. Three years, as they did to me, Three years in, three years out, six year sentence and you finish it. Judge didn't turn around, say you're a felon for life. Why can I not have. Isn't this country a country of second chances? Isn't this a country that's supposed to want to see reintegration into society? Proper reintegration. That's exactly what this does. And just imagine the favorabilities. Now he already has the Republican Party.

[Patrick Bet-David]

What was the thing he did in 2018, the first act that Van Jones showed up to the White House and he was standing behind Trump. You know which one I'M talking about? You know which one I'm talking about? They did something for second chances.

[Michael Cohen]

It was called the Second Chance Act.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Is that what it was called? Second Chance Act. The First Step Act. Zoom in. Formerly incarcerated reenter society transformed. On 15, 2018, President Donald Trump signed the act. Enacted several changes in a US Federal criminal aimed at. I can't see what that word is.

[Michael Cohen]

Reforming federal prisons and sentencing laws in order to reduce recidivism.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Got it.

[Michael Cohen]

Decreasing federal inmate population. Basically what that was was sort of the decriminalization of marijuana and other.

[Patrick Bet-David]

How different. So that's misdemeanors, you're saying felonies.

[Michael Cohen]

Correct.

[Patrick Bet-David]

To try to get back into the system.

[Michael Cohen]

Correct. No, no, no. These are people who have already done their time. This is taking away the stigma of having a felony conviction. Like it's impossible to get a bank account. It's impossible to get a credit card. We're a cashless society right now. Or as close to cashless as you can get. So now you have to go to one of these third parties. You got to constantly take cash and re up whatever your credit card is that you're using, your debit card. Why, why, why should a felon. I don't care who that felon is, as long as it's nonviolent. That would fall under Tipo. Why should you not be able to open up a savings account or checking account? You can only spend what's in there. Right. There's no fraud that they could commit. So this Tipo act, my estimation would significantly change. And I'm gonna get attacked for this shit again. Right. By the radical left. Why are you doing anything to help Trump? Why are you doing anything to help Republicans? You're a Democrat. Been a Democrat my whole life. Right. Do you know, when I was the vice chair of the rnc, I was the vice chair. The only four of us, led by Steve Wynn. Great guy. It's another one that was very hurtful. You know, we were very close. And as a direct result of what happened, they went with the power, by the way. Respect. Understand it, but they did. Doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. Right. A lot of these guys who I was very close to, but I was the vice chair of the RNC Finance Committee. I was a Democrat.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You voted for Obama in 08, didn't you? Did you vote for Obama in 08?

[Michael Cohen]

I did, yeah. You did? Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So that's pretty wild to have that. So you're sitting there while you're a Democrat, by the way.

[Michael Cohen]

Do you know how many times that I had conversations with Trump about Obama? He would get angry at me. But here's something that people don't know about Trump, and I wish and I pray that many of the enablers, the sycophants, the Cabinet, right, would tune into your podcast and hear these words. Trump doesn't want you to turn around and to be a bobblehead. He doesn't want you to agree with him. He doesn't care if you do or you don't. He's gonna do what he wants anyway. He wants to hear your real thoughts. I was somebody who would push back with him on a regular basis, and I would say, you know, boss, I see where you're going with this, but you think maybe we can take a different route, one that doesn't seem so caustic, one that does. Let's all acknowledge, for example, we all want strong borders. Would you acknowledge you want strong borders?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Sure.

[Michael Cohen]

Would you acknowledge Trump's adage, a country without borders, quite frankly, isn't a country? Those are his words, not mine.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That's right. I'm there as well.

[Michael Cohen]

Okay. You acknowledge that.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I do.

[Michael Cohen]

Okay. I think it's also fair to say that ice, or having guys with masks, no identification, no names, no ID numbers, with AR15s, many of whom are not properly trained, 47 days is certainly, in my estimation, not enough. I would like to see ICE stand down. I'm not saying don't guard a federal building if you think it's under assault. I'm just saying there's no need to ever turn around, put your hands on a woman and throw her to the ground simply because she's filming, simply because she's blowing a whistle. Again, you may think differently. Many of your listeners may think differently. It's my opinion. Right. I don't put my hands on women. All right? And I don't believe that these guys should do it either. Doesn't mean we can't get to the same ultimate goal, which is strong borders, which is knowing every single person who's coming into this country and residing here. I think it's all fair to say none of us want, for example, Ms. 13, in this country, not in our neighborhoods, not in this country. We don't want trend surprise.

[Patrick Bet-David]

When you say none of us want, what do you do when the borders are wide open? Who do you know who comes in?

[Michael Cohen]

That's how the point.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah. I mean, when you keep the border, when you say what you're saying. I have a rebuttal to that one. To me, Is why didn't Minnesota cooperate? Why doesn't the local and the state police cooperate and send the reports to the government? Why doesn't LA and California cooperate? Why doesn't Maine, Chicago, Illinois? You can cooperate if you don't cooperate. So what do I do? Don't send anybody there to not protect the people. It's my responsibility to protect. The number two is.

[Michael Cohen]

Well, it's actually really the governor's primary responsibility. Should they have come to the White House?

[Patrick Bet-David]

By the way, he made the phone call. What did Trump do when he made the phone call? He picked it up. And what did Trump do? Trump's a reasonable guy. He came out of his way to do what? Hey, tell me what you need. We're gonna come help you out. Did you see when Tim Waltz announced that.

[Michael Cohen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

He was all over the place. So for Trump even tweeted about it saying we spoke. He sounds reasonable. We're on the same page. We're gonna work together because to him the American people are first. And in regards to the women is if I'm ice, if I'm a cop and you're not following my orders, am I supposed to say don't put your hands on a woman. You're asking to follow orders. If you do, do. If you don't, I have to do what I have to do, protect. It's a very complicated issue here, Michael.

[Michael Cohen]

It's complicated. However. However. What she, what was she doing filming a First amendment protected constitutional right? All right. There was no reason, you know, you know the old expression, you know, one bad apple spoils the bunch. I am never going to denigrate someone who puts on the uniform. Not the blue, not on military, ever, ever. But then there's always the bad guys. There's always like in the movie, like in the movie Stand by Me. One bad apple spoils the bunch. What about three or five? Rotten to the frickin core.

[Patrick Bet-David]

And by the way, sometimes by the.

[Michael Cohen]

Way it happen and anybody to turn around. Right. So thank you for acknowledging that because there are bad people in everything for sure. That doesn't mean that I should be, you know, taken apart, it shouldn't mean that. It just means that you have to keep an eye because especially you have two Americans who were killed, who died, who died unnecessarily. Unnecessarily. Nobody was a threat.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Same with D.C. same with what happened in D.C. and how he. Same streets in D.C. and by the.

[Michael Cohen]

Way, how about, how about that poor, that poor, what do you call agent ice, Agent who was who was executed.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Right.

[Michael Cohen]

Why? Why? We have a problem in this country.

[Patrick Bet-David]

But. But that's the sacrifice. That's the risk that comes with that job. Nobody chooses that job, not knowing.

[Michael Cohen]

But these were civilians.

[Patrick Bet-David]

No, those are two. That's why I'm isolating the job of this person. And we're talking civilians. No.

[Michael Cohen]

By the way, can I get some more coffee?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Absolutely.

[Michael Cohen]

This, by the way, nothing for nothing, but this conversation. Right. Requires high octane. You require high octane. Patrick.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Rob, would you mind having somebody grab some coffee? Sorry. No, no, it's totally fine. They'll get it for you. By the way, with. With the things that's going on with.

[Michael Cohen]

Are we still on?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah, we're still on. We're still recording.

[Michael Cohen]

Sorry about that, folks. It's like, you know, you get a little bit parched. Patrick is tough, man.

[Patrick Bet-David]

No, it's totally fine.

[Michael Cohen]

And you write winners.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So what do you think? When all of a sudden Trump is like, yeah, we need Greenland. It's national security. We need it. Yeah. Cuba, you know, we'll see. We'll see what's gonna happen. Venezuela. Hey, you know, boats, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Maduro's been captured. Middle of the night. What do you think about when he's doing what he's doing? How many of these things that you're seeing happening? He talked about then that you're like, yeah, that's been part of a strategy. How many of it is. Nope, it's just off the cuff. He thinks it's a good idea. He executes.

[Michael Cohen]

Okay, so Venezuela was never a topic that we talked about. Not in 2011, not in 2015.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Even with the oil stuff.

[Michael Cohen]

That was different. That was Iran.

[Patrick Bet-David]

No, no, I know what I'm saying. We never talked about Rennes oil, Western Hemisphere oil.

[Michael Cohen]

Okay. Never talked about it. Iran, he would talk about Barack Obama's birth certificate. We talked about a lot. Let me be crystal clear on something. Venezuela was never part of this. I have issues with whoever it is that is guiding him on this. How do you call it, this boondoggle. Thank you.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So thank you.

[Michael Cohen]

This boondoggle, as far as I see it.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Did you say boondoggle?

[Michael Cohen]

Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

This is the second time that word's been used in the last two days.

[Michael Cohen]

Sorry about that.

[Patrick Bet-David]

No, it's good.

[Michael Cohen]

Why do I say that? First and foremost, fentanyl doesn't come from Venezuela. That's his own FBI, his own intelligence agencies are telling him, or should be telling him. That's not where fentanyl comes from. Fentanyl Comes from China, and the bulk of it comes from China through Mexico. That's not Michael Cohen making assertions. That's facts that have been provided by his intelligence agencies. So when you blow up an 18 foot aluminum boat that has the capacity of 80 miles, you would need to refuel that, I don't know, 112 times in order to get anywhere near US land. What's on those boats? Well, potentially cocaine, definitively marijuana. That's already been proven. And definitively fish, because there are a couple of those boats that were fishermen. I have a real problem with that. Double strike, right? I have. I have a problem with it. It's a difficult operation in and of itself. I'm trying to understand exactly what the purpose of that military operation is. Is it regime change? If it's regime change. Okay, that's a whole new conversation, Patrick, for you and me, it's a whole new conversation. I'm not opposed to regime change. In fact, the woman who picked me up yesterday from the airport and I engaged in a rather interesting conversation. She's from Brazil. She would love, love Trump to invade Brazil and to get rid of the gangs that are destroying her country. Sao Paulo nightmare, the killings nightmare. She would love him to do the exact same thing.

[Patrick Bet-David]

This is a friend.

[Michael Cohen]

This is the woman who drove me yesterday from the airport.

[Patrick Bet-David]

She's telling you this?

[Michael Cohen]

She's telling me the story. How amazing is that?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Well, I mean, you got to think about. Because what Alexandre de Moraes and Lula did.

[Michael Cohen]

Could you say that again?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Alexandre de Moraes.

[Michael Cohen]

You sound like the guy from like the Modelo commercial.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Have you seen this guy? Have you seen what he looks like, Alexandra?

[Michael Cohen]

Yes.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah, he is like a legit.

[Michael Cohen]

Oh, he's a gangster.

[Patrick Bet-David]

He's a gangster. No, he's a legit gangster. They control the Supreme Court, they control Congress, they control Senate, like 80 to 20, 90 to 10. The level of control that they have. And now there's a young guy, Nicholas Fejera. I don't know if you're following that guy or not. He's 30 years old. He's probably. He's probably going to be saving Brazil. The guy is so capable, talented, and loved.

[Michael Cohen]

Unless they take him out.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Unless they take him out.

[Michael Cohen]

Her fear.

[Patrick Bet-David]

So watch this. This Nicholas guy, Nicholas Fe Hera right there. Fera. Okay, Jay, go to Fej. If you go to Fej. Hang on, let me pull him up right now. This guy, when you see him, you won't believe how many Instagram followers he has and how much love he has from Brazil, because.

[Michael Cohen]

Can you follow me, please? On my YouTube?

[Patrick Bet-David]

There you go.

[Michael Cohen]

My Instagram.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Can you. Can you.

[Michael Cohen]

I've seen him.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah. He is a talent, a gifted talent. Rob, can you pull up his Instagram account just to show he's been doing a march in Brazil on his own. Look how many followers he's got at 30 years old. 20 million followers. 21 million followers. Go a little bit lower, Rob. Okay, you see that video to the top left? That got 9.3 million likes. Can you click on it? How many views did it get? Rob, if you click on the view, if you Click on a 9.3 on the bottom, it'll tell you. That clip that he posted, it's not showing you. That clip, I believe, got 300 million views.

[Michael Cohen]

Wow.

[Patrick Bet-David]

On Instagram.

[Michael Cohen]

Wow.

[Patrick Bet-David]

He has loved, admired. So Brazil, a lot of Brazilians, similar to Venezuela. The difference is, you know, I have.

[Michael Cohen]

Family lives in Sao Paulo.

[Patrick Bet-David]

You do?

[Michael Cohen]

I do, yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah. I was there last year. I was there to go and visit with Jair Bolsonaro, and it was an incredible experience. The people are some of the most amazing people. We did a three and a half hour interview, and in the moment, in the middle of the podcast, while we're doing the interview, reports come, he's getting arrested. He had to leave when the interview's going.

[Michael Cohen]

And that's why she wants a regime change there, too. But here's the problem with that. And I said to her, are we really wanting America to become the police of the world? While I acknowledge Brazil is problematic, there's a lot of places that are problematic.

[Patrick Bet-David]

That's a very good debate. I think that's a very good debate.

[Michael Cohen]

It's a fair debate.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah, I think it's a very fair debate to have.

[Michael Cohen]

But you know what? Her belief, there's only one person who actually has the balls big enough to do it. She's right, by the way. I didn't disagree with her. Well, for two reasons. One, driving kind of fast. She know who you were or no, I'm not sure. I think so.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Got it.

[Michael Cohen]

I really don't think so, but she was driving a little quick, so I don't want to get her all excited, so I just agreed with her.

[Patrick Bet-David]

She's not wrong. I mean, you know, I was born and raised in Iran, and a lot of people in Iran are wondering what's going to happen with Iran. And a lot of Iranians know there's only one guy that can help them be free, and it's him. And, you know, he's already sent what is Abraham? Is it the Lincoln that's on its way? 5,800 soldiers and the right outside. I think he moved Lincoln.

[Michael Cohen]

The chance that he'll turn around and make like the USS Michael.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Michael. USS Michael.

[Michael Cohen]

Yeah.

[Patrick Bet-David]

I don't know. Probably less than a zero percent chance of that happening. I mean, I think let's start off with.

[Michael Cohen]

Let's start off with that phone call.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Before we go making those. But anyways, Michael, it's. I really enjoyed this. This was great.

[Michael Cohen]

Is it what you thought it was going to be?

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yes. I was walking this morning, and I'm doing my workout, and I'm like, I. I think this is going to be a good conversation. I think this is going to be a good conversation. And let's see what's going to happen. There was a percentage of me, I'm like, you know, is he gonna come and try to make us, you know, be a spectacle and do this? 10% chance. I mean, I'm like, maybe he's gonna do that. But I have to tell you, I really enjoyed the conversation. As did I. I really enjoyed the conversation. I think you were fair in areas. You're giving your answers and the audience gets to decide. And I'm sure, you know, a lot of people on your side are going to hate that you did this today. And I'm sure a lot of people on my side are gonna sit there and say, why the hell would you have him on? But I'm certain anybody that watched the whole thing is gonna say, I really enjoy this conversation. I'm certain of it. I'm certain anybody at the end is gonna say, he was vulnerable, he was honest, he was transparent. And you know what? Let's see what happens next, and I'll.

[Michael Cohen]

Keep you posted on that phone call.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Yeah, you make sure you make that phone call.

[Michael Cohen]

I know I will.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Don't ask for the change of the name of the ship. I don't think that's a good idea. But all the other stuff, go ahead and do it.

[Michael Cohen]

Deal.

[Patrick Bet-David]

Really enjoyed it, buddy.

[Michael Cohen]

Patrick, thank you.

[Patrick Bet-David]

All the best. Take care, everybody. God bless. Bye bye, Bye bye.

[Michael Cohen]

Hey, Michael Cohen here. Look, you all know who I am, Donald Trump's former personal attorney and fixer. A lot of things have taken place over the years. A lot of questions need to be answered. You may have a lot of questions, so do me a favor. Anytime you want to ask me a question, feel free to reach out to me on the next.