← PBS Washington Week with The Atlantic - Full Show
PBS Washington Week with The Atlantic - Full Show
Washington Week with The Atlantic full episode, 5/22/26
00:24:00
Full Washington Week with the Atlantic broadcast from May 22, 2026.
Loading summary
Transcript61 lines
- [00:02]
A
Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has distinguished himself as President Trump's most pugnacious cabinet member and as a leading advocate of the war against Iran. He is also someone who is trying to reshape the military according to his own values and beliefs. It's safe to say that the Pentagon has never seen a Secretary of Defense like him. This Memorial Day weekend, a close look at Hegseth's turbulent time leading the world's most powerful military next.
- [00:31]
B
This is Washington Week with the Atlantic.
- [00:34]
A
Good evening, and welcome to Washington Week. Here's something that I think is reasonable to state. In previous presidencies, the weekend host of a cable television news and entertainment show might very well be offered an interview with the Secretary of Defense. But it's hard to imagine that he would be offered the job of Secretary of Defense. But this is what Donald Trump did when he chose Pete Hexseth for the role. As you know, by the way, Hegseth has demanded to be called Secretary of War, harkening back to the title used in World War II and earlier. But until Congress authorizes the name change, we will use the statutory title. Hexith has instituted so many other radical changes to the way the most powerful and lethal military in the history of the planet is run that it is hard sometimes to rank these changes in terms of their lasting impact. But we'll try tonight with my guests. Helene Cooper, a national security correspondent at the New York Times. Jonathan Karl is the chief Washington correspondent for ABC News. Missy Ryan covers the Pentagon for the Atlantic. And Vivian Salama is a national security correspondent at the Atlantic. Thank you all for joining me. I want to start actually on domestic politics because there's been obviously a lot of action this week. Just spend a couple of minutes on this, Vivian. There are a bunch of contradictory signals about President Trump's political strength. On the one hand, his poll numbers are in the basement. On the other, he still has the power to punish his Republican enemies, as he just did with Thomas Massie of Kentucky. Which way is all this trending? He's trying to knock out Senator John Cornyn now, much to the chagrin of Cornyn's many Republican allies in the Senate. Where is this heading?
- [02:10]
C
If anything? The last month has proven to us that President Trump still has juice within the party, even as his poll numbers go to the lowest that they've ever been. Even as he struggles to implement his domestic agenda, his foreign policy agenda, he still does have that juice, and we've seen it in recent weeks with regard to a number of different primaries earlier this month, Indiana was particularly noteworthy because five or six challengers that President Trump endorsed all won the GOP primary there, and that was simply because they supported his redistricting push. Now, all eyes were on Thomas Massie in Kentucky in particular, because he's been so outspoken against President Trump in recent years. He has gone after him on everything from.
- [02:54]
A
Trump really did not like that guy,
- [02:56]
C
and he did not like that guy. He has criticized him left, right, and center. But Massie was one of the leading voices in the GOP with regard to releasing the Epstein files. He was very critical on the president's policies about Israel. And so all of that kind of culminated with this primary. A former Navy SEAL who challenged Massie was supported not only by the president, but you even had the Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, go out there and support him, which is very unprecedented. And ultimately, he lost. Now, was it because of the fact that he had been so outspoken, or is it, again, part of this trend? We're gonna really know that going forward with regard to Texas next week, John.
- [03:39]
B
So, look, but a couple of things here. First of all, Trump does have still the control over the party. I mean, there's just no question about this. This is something that we also saw, though, in 2022, if you remember, he was in exile, out of power, kind of like written off as a spent force, and he went around and started endorsing in primaries, and he won in race after race after race. And what happened in the fall? Well, Republicans suffered significant losses. They were up against, you know, running in a situation where you had President Biden with low approval rating, high inflation, all the conditions for a big red wave. And it didn't materialize, in part because many of those candidates, particularly Senate candidates that Trump had either recruited or endorsed, ended up losing. So winning in primaries doesn't necessarily mean that he has the power that's going to come in the fall. But one other thing is you have this phenomenon in Congress now because he's gone after not just, you know, not just Cornyn. He went after Cassidy, and Cassidy lost his primary. He's, you know, he ran Marjorie Taylor Greene out of the House. He's now saying he wants a primary challenge against Lauren Boebert. He's going after Republicans who are insufficiently loyal in his term, including people that have been amazingly loyal to Donald Trump. And it's created this phenomenon where a lot of those, or at least some of those people now have renewed courage to challenge him. It's amazing, the courage of the lame duck. Maybe we need Like a new term, like the brave duck. But Cassidy secretary, you know, Cassidy, who voted to confirm Bobby Kennedy against where he wanted to go. Cassidy comes out and defies Trump on war powers and suddenly he's got an issue on his hands.
- [05:35]
A
Brave duck would be a great name for a Capitol Hill restaurant.
- [05:38]
B
Brave duck.
- [05:38]
A
If we ever if journalism doesn't work
- [05:40]
B
out for us, we might want Thom Tillis. Look at him.
- [05:43]
A
Thom Tillis coming out.
- [05:45]
B
They don't have to worry about him anymore because they're not running anymore.
- [05:47]
C
There's one more underlying theme really quickly though, and that's the redistricting opposition that some of these candidates have put up there. And in Indiana in particular, most of those candidates who won supported the president's midterm, mid cycle redistricting push. That could really remake the map. And that's a significant, significant effort by the president.
- [06:05]
A
Right. Let's go to our main subject, though, and Vivian, you mentioned that Pete Hexworth campaign for against Massie. I can't remember another time when a defense secretary involved himself at that level in partisan politics, but he does everything differently. I want to ask each of you to take a minute or more and describe from your own reporting perspective the areas in which Hegseth has had the most profound impact on Pentagon policy and culture. Why don't we start with you, Helene?
- [06:35]
D
Well, that's a great question, Jeff. I think I would start first with just he's instilled an atmosphere of fear which is pervasive now throughout the Pentagon just because he has fired or threatened to fire or forced to retire just so many of the top brass. It used to be you spend 30, 40 years of your life in the military and you rise to the level of general. And yeah, of course you serve at the pleasure of the president. That's always been the case. But you're not now you're not gettingyou're not usually fired for some of the reasons that hey has produced. He has wiped out to a certain extent so many of the senior leadership and so many people who had been groomed and were destined for greater leadership roles on the Joint Staff, like DA Sims, who was, you know, director of the Joint Staff. So you saw Randy George recently, the army chief of staff who's gone he went he got rid of John Phelan, who like a neighbor of and he's not military brass. He was the Navy secretary, but he was a neighbor. And a bunch of Donald Trump and Pete Hegseth and his deputy Feinberg went into Trump and demanded that Thailand be
- [07:52]
A
removed what are the categories of targets in the uniformed services that Trump that Hegseth is going after?
- [07:58]
D
He's going after anybody who had anything to do with the previous administration. And when you are what is supposed to be. And the phrase apolitical military is overused, but it's not supposed to be a partisan military. They're supposed to. The military of the United States of America is supposed to be able to serve under, whether Republican or general, whoever the civilian leadership is. But he is going after anybody who he thinks did too well or got too far in the Biden administration or in the Obama administration before President Trump's first term. Anybody who's perceived as being not very loyal to Donald Trump. And that has beenthat's been sort of the course that he has charted ever since he first took the job. After that very, very contentious Senate hearing with Thom Tillis giving us the deciding vote, I wonder what would have happened to our brave duck had he been a brave duck then.
- [08:56]
B
Yeah, he was not. He was still planning to run for reelection when he cast that vote.
- [09:00]
D
So I don't know if that brave is quite the word I would use for these ducks.
- [09:04]
A
Well, we're going to have a duck restaurant of some sort. Let me go to. Let me go to.
- [09:08]
B
But also women. Women.
- [09:09]
D
Yeah.
- [09:10]
A
We're going to get to the DEI subject in a second because it's a big category for him and it obviously motivates a lot of his thinking. But, Missy, maybe this is an area you want to tackle. But to you, what is most notable about Hegseth's leadership?
- [09:25]
E
Sure. I mean, there are so many different categories of norm busting behavior that Pete Hegseth has embraced since he became Defense Secretary. And to Helene's point about the apolitical nature of the military, the thing about Defense Secretary is it is a political job. You're politically Senate chosen, Senate approved, member of the President's cabinet. But there is also a tradition where defense secretaries attempt to minimize their overtly partisan behavior because they are kind of the safeguard of America's sons and daughters. They try to, in the name of national security, act more as a non partisan actor. And Pete Hagsteth has totally discarded that tradition. And we're seeing him lean into his role as a partisan fighter, something that he brings directly from Fox. He has been incredibly adversarial. He's actually been the leading edge of members of Congress in having this new normal in attacking members of Congress from the oversight committees, in testimony, in bringing in integrating religion in a new way into the Military. He brought his Christian nationalists pastor into the military. Not only did he fire these 21 general and flag officers, but he's also just kind of brought this spirit as a brawler into his role. And I think that that has actually worked for him very well with the only person that matters, and that's Donald Trump. The impact on the institution, though, I think is far more corrosive. And I think that we are starting to see that in the behavior of the senior uniformed officers. For example, in the recent posture hearings when we had, you know, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, the Central Command commander come before Congress and talk about their priorities about the role in Iran specifically. And they seem to be taking some kind of troubling lessons from Pete Hegseth in terms of pushing back in a new way against the members of Congress who are asking them hard questions.
- [11:29]
A
Right. John, I want, before I go to you, I want to play, I don't know what to describe it, a cartoon. I guess it's just a cartoon that was put out in a kind of a South park style cartoon that was just put out by the Pentagon that is quite notable for those of us who cover secretaries of defense like Bob Gates or Chuck Hagel or. So why don't you just watch this for a minute and you'll see what I mean.
- [11:53]
B
We are defending the homeland. We're funding the Golden Dome, a next generation multi layered missile shield over the United States. It will protect our communities from airborne threats and ensure that America will never be held hostage by foreign powers. I mean, you know, he's, the jingoism is he's, he's good at it. I mean, I covered Donald Rumsfeld, I covered Bob Gates. I was a Pentagon correspondent for several years. I never saw anything remotely like that. But in terms of the bigger picture, the purging of the generals and the admirals and it's, you know, what are we at? And we're at nearly 20 flag officers that have either retired early or have been fired or resigned. And it's even gone to the point of like of colonels who are in the line to become one star flag officers. He's gone down to pick and he's not, it is his right. It is his right. It is not, though, that these are political officers. I mean, far from right.
- [13:08]
A
He's not firing people because they've been incompetent.
- [13:10]
D
I'm not sure about it being his right with the colonels. With the colonels at that level in Michael's statutory defense secretary is not supposed to.
- [13:17]
A
It's only at the general level. It's two and above. Two stars and above.
- [13:20]
D
Two stars and above.
- [13:20]
A
Yes.
- [13:21]
D
It's not at that. He's not supposed to be going into,
- [13:23]
A
but yet he's doing it.
- [13:24]
D
He is doing it.
- [13:25]
B
He's doing it. And like, I mean, General Randy George. I mean, you can't say what that guy's politics was. This was a revered army leader.
- [13:34]
A
This is the Chief of staff of the Army.
- [13:35]
B
Chief of Staff of the Army, Admiral Lisa Franketti. These were not people that were like, you know, big. They weren't out campaigning for candidates in Kentucky. These were not people that were involved politically. But in addition to that, you've had the purging of the press. I mean, I think it's a notable thing that maybe, you know, I'm a former Pentagon correspondent. I went to that building virtually every day when I was covering. I walked the halls. That's how I, you know, that's how I learned the place. I traveled not just with the Secretary of Defense. I traveled with the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. I traveled with the then Secretary of the army, the combatant commander for Pacific Command. I mean, this was stuff you could do as a Pentagon correspondent. And that's all been pushed aside. And it's like he doesn't want to face not any dissent because. Not a matter of dissent, but even questions that veer from the orthodoxy.
- [14:29]
A
Vivian, before I go to you, let's watch him talk about the subject that we've all alluded to here, his campaign against, quote, unquote, wokeness and DEI policies and the penny this is. You all recall his gathering of 800 Flag Officers, Generals and admirals a little while back, where it was mainly a lecture about physical fitness, which we're all for in the military. And wokeness, watch this with me.
- [14:58]
B
This administration has done a great deal from day one to remove the social justice, politically correct and toxic ideological garbage that had infected our department, to rip out the politics. No more identity months, DEI offices, dudes in dresses. No more climate change worship. No more division distraction or gender delusions. No more debris. As I've said before and will say again, we are done with that. I mean, the only dudes in dresses that I remember seeing were Klinger and mash. Was this a thing that was really affecting me?
- [15:41]
A
I think there were a handful of people across the branches. I'm not sure what number. I've heard 15, something along those lines.
- [15:48]
C
Very small.
- [15:49]
A
But, Vivian, talk about if we're trying to understand what motivates him most Deeply, Pete Hegseth, because it's important to try to understand, feels like the maximum energy is his discussion about dei, affirmative action and so on. Gender.
- [16:07]
E
Mm.
- [16:08]
C
One of the things that he has written as sort of his mission statement, if you will, is maximum lethality, tepid legality, violent effect, not politically correct. And this is one of the.
- [16:20]
A
Which I believe was written by ChatGPT.
- [16:22]
C
Entirely possible. Entirely possible.
- [16:24]
B
Get a little music under that.
- [16:25]
C
I know, I know. A little bit of like a scratch.
- [16:28]
A
He's a good TV guy. He's got little sayings.
- [16:31]
C
So I want to get to that actually. Jeff, in a sec. But, you know, this is something that the president has talked about, but definitely Pete Hegseth believes deeply in this concept that the wokeness from the left has driven the country into no man's land, that they are coming in to correct, you know, what was wrong and get the train back on the tracks. They feel, especially given sort of the Christian. The Christian background that Missy was talking about, he believes that the country has basically lost its way and that he is. He's on a mission to try to correct that. But you talked about the TV element of it. And I want to emphasize, because one of the big questions you get is why is he still in his job? Administration officials I talk to constantly complain about him. He is not well liked among the senior leadership level at the White House and a lot of different agencies. But the president still believes a. That he didn't want to shake up a Senate confirmed secretary. But also the fact that he has this ability as a television, A former television reporter, to kind of deliver the message to the president in a way the president understands it resonates with him. That has kept him in his job.
- [17:41]
E
Absolutely. No, I mean, he certainly was hired to be a culture warrior. That's what brought him there. That and the advocating for people who had been convicted or accused of war crimes, the relationship that he developed with President Trump during his first term. But also it's something that actually animates him, I think, on a deeper level. Here's somebody who, you know, he attended Princeton University, he attended Harvard, and these are largely liberal organizations. And he was kind of a part of a smaller group of social conservatives. And I think that that kind of, I'm the underdog, I'm pushing back against this oppressive dominant culture in that context is something that we see transferring into, you know, what he talks about, about the political elite, about the, you know, the foreign policy establishment. And I think that that is a really sort of central part of his Worldview.
- [18:34]
D
Well, I would just want to. When we're talking about dei, we're talking about his ant. I just would like to put some of this into a little bit of perspective. The Pentagon has always, the American military had prided itself about its integration. They were, you know, one of the first to integrate. And the minority representation and the military had, I think, 42% representative minority, like in the late. Around 2018, 20, 19, 2020. But if you looked at the who were in the leadership roles of the military, all of them were white men. There weren't women and there weren't black people. There were not Hispanics. That was it. It was white men. You walk down this hallway in the e ring of the Pentagon and all you see are the portraits, the Millie portrait that Peter Exed took down.
- [19:30]
B
No longer there portraits.
- [19:32]
D
Portraits of white guy after white guy after white guy. I remember one afternoon, these were the chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And I remember one afternoon standing at the end because the press hallway, the old hallway was near there and watching as eachone black officer after the other walked down that hallway. And I kept watching each one pause when he got to Colin Powell. And there was like this moment where you stop and you're like, oh, yeah. And then you keep going. Because at that time there had only been one black chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and it had been Colin Powell. And then Lloyd Austin came in. You have a black defense secretary. And not soon after that, President Biden appointed Charles C. Kennedy Brown as the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And you had two black men leading the military. And I remember a black Marine saying to me, this is never going to fly. And there was this belief that there is no way this military was ready to be led by. And it would have been the same way if you had been two women leading the military. It just wasn't ready for that. And I think what you're seeing in many ways with Pete Hegseth is sort of the embodiment of what, you know, what that Marine was afraid of.
- [20:47]
A
Helene, let me keep with you just for a minute. There's so many topics to cover that we're not going to have time for, including the non tepid legality issues surrounding the boat strikes. But let me ask you about the most important issue of the moment, the Iran war. Hecseth big advocate for it. What is his role in strategy and what is his role in communicating to the President what is actually happening in
- [21:14]
D
the region in strategy? Hegseth has no role. He is not looked at for strategy. I was talking to a couple of military officials about who is talking to Trump who is in the room. It's not. Hegseth may be in the room, but no, hesethtrump goes to Hexseth to be the mouthpiece. He is there to sort of, you know, cheerlead. And we hit, blah, blah, blah, we hit this many targets and all of that. But nobody in the White House, least of all Susie Wallace, is looking at Pete Hecseth for a strateg. That is Dan Kaine, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and that is Admiral Brad Cooper, who is the head of centcom. They're the ones who are talking about the operational stuff and they're the ones who are unfortunately with President and I say unfortunately because I think we're now at a place with the Iran war where we're in a situation that Trump has not been able to extract himself and he wants to. They're presenting. They will present all of the military options that they can and give them to you. And their way of saying, we don't think you should do this is to say, you can do this, but the result will be this and it's risky and it's that. But they never say don't do this. That's the political position, Phoenix, that is not involved in that.
- [22:26]
E
I do agree. I agree with Helene 100%. But I do worry that the people who are presenting the operational options are because of this culture of fear and because there have been instances of self censorship within the military, within the Pentagon, in terms of people getting shot down for pointing out risks in a way that is seen as politically unpalatable, that there's not a fulsome discussion of, you know, the downsides of any particular course of action. And actually, as Vivian and I have reported at the Atlantic, there's skepticism within the government's highest levels about the case that was made for Iran and the information, including from Vice President Vance and his staff, about the reliability of, of what the Pentagon is kind of trying to sell as the Iran war.
- [23:12]
A
I will say, yeah, the last 30 seconds.
- [23:15]
B
He does go to the White House with General Kaine. He is there when the President gets briefed. I agree. He's not the one laying out the strategic options, but he is there. And there is no sign at all that President Trump has any lack of confidence in Pete Hegseth. As Trump sees it, the military has performed amazingly well. Venezuela, the operations in Iran, he's happy with him.
- [23:39]
A
We'll leave it there. But we'll be talking about this again. We're going to thank you. First, let me thank our guests for joining me and thank you at home for watching us. For a look at the president's Iran war exit strategy, please read Robert Kagan's latest piece@theatlantic.com I'm Jeffrey Goldberg wishing you a meaningful Memorial Day. Good night from Washington.