Podcast Summary: People I (Mostly) Admire - Episode 151: Neurobiologist, Philosopher, and Addict

Introduction

In Episode 151 of "People I (Mostly) Admire," hosted by Steve Levitt of Freakonomics Radio and Stitcher, listeners are introduced to a multifaceted guest, Owen Flanagan. Owen is not only a renowned neurobiologist and philosopher but also has personal experience with addiction, having battled alcohol and pill dependencies for two decades. This episode delves deep into the complexities of addiction, the interplay between neuroscience and philosophy, and Owen's unique perspective shaped by his personal struggles.

Exploring Consciousness and Philosophy

Owen begins by sharing his academic journey, highlighting his transition from an undergraduate interested in psychology and neuroscience to becoming a philosopher of mind. He emphasizes the resurgence of interest in consciousness within philosophy, psychology, and neuroscience during the early 1990s.

Notable Quote:

[01:12] Owen Flanagan: "The question arose, could we explain consciousness empirically, naturalistically?"

He discusses the challenges of studying consciousness scientifically, noting the historical preference for behaviorism in psychology, which sidelined internal mental experiences. Owen argues for a more integrated approach that considers both external behaviors and internal conscious experiences.

Dialogue with the Dalai Lama and Buddhism

The conversation shifts to Owen's engagement with the Dalai Lama, sparked by his work on consciousness. Owen elucidates the Dalai Lama's unique interest in science, contrasting it with the general perception of religious leaders being antagonistic toward scientific inquiry.

Notable Quote:

[04:30] Owen Flanagan: "Buddhism as a tradition... is what you would, for the most part, call pre-scientific or anti-scientific."

Owen explores how the Dalai Lama integrates scientific methods with Buddhist practices, particularly in the study of meditation's effects on the brain. He remains skeptical about the definitive neuroscientific evidence linking Buddhist practices to specific brain changes but acknowledges the benefits of meditation in promoting serenity and self-control.

Buddhist Worldview vs. Western Perspectives

In his book "The Bodhisattva's Brain," Owen contrasts Buddhist metaphysics with Western thought. He outlines key differences, such as the Buddhist view of an unbounded universe without a definitive beginning, contrasting it with Abrahamic religions' creation narratives.

Notable Quote:

[08:38] Owen Flanagan: "In Buddhism... you recycle into new bodies, possibly for, well, not all eternity, because eventually you dissolve back into the bosom of the universe."

Owen's goal is to "naturalize" religious wisdom, extracting valuable ethical teachings while aligning them with modern scientific understanding. He emphasizes the enduring relevance of ancient philosophical inquiries into the human condition, such as the nature of a good life and ethical behavior.

Resilience of World Religions Amid Scientific Advancement

Addressing the persistence of world religions despite scientific progress, Owen attributes their resilience to the deep-seated association between religious beliefs and ethical conduct. He references Stephen Jay Gould's "principle of non-overlapping magisteria," suggesting that religions adapt by focusing on moral teachings while leaving empirical explanations to science.

Notable Quote:

[13:01] Owen Flanagan: "They are so resilient... because ethical beliefs are deeply intertwined with religious doctrines."

Philosophy vs. Neuroscience in Understanding Human Behavior

When questioned about whether neuroscience will overshadow classical philosophy, Owen maintains that while neuroscience can elucidate mechanisms behind behaviors, it cannot fully capture the subjective, first-person experiences that philosophy seeks to understand.

Notable Quote:

[15:14] Owen Flanagan: "We're going to need that vocabulary forever... the vocabulary of mental life, social life, and so on."

He champions a complementary relationship between the two disciplines, asserting that understanding the human condition requires both mechanistic insights and existential inquiries.

Personal Journey with Addiction

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to Owen's personal battle with addiction. He recounts growing up in a family indirectly connected to Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) through his father's role as an accountant for the organization. Despite a seemingly normal upbringing, Owen struggled with alcohol, leading to the dissolution of his marriage and repeated attempts at sobriety before finally achieving 18 years of sobriety.

Notable Quote:

[24:26] Owen Flanagan: "I loved watching my parents during cocktail hour... I loved the sound of drinks."

Owen emphasizes the healing power of sharing personal stories in support groups like AA and the importance of community in overcoming addiction.

Critique of the Disease Model of Addiction

Owen critically examines the prevalent "addiction as a disease" model, arguing that it oversimplifies the complexities of addiction. He points out that while genetic and environmental factors play roles, the subjective experience of addicts involves conscious struggles, shame, and guilt that the disease model often overlooks.

Notable Quote:

[21:57] Owen Flanagan: "My addiction was... a consuming lifestyle... craving... obsessive thinking."

Owen advocates for the "disorder" model, which acknowledges both biological predispositions and personal agency, allowing for a more nuanced understanding that incorporates responsibility without solely attributing addiction to pathology.

Legalization of Drugs: A Philosophical and Practical Perspective

The discussion transitions to drug legalization, where Owen references Carl Hart's advocacy for the full legalization of all drugs. He analyzes case studies like Portugal's decriminalization and Oregon's Measure 110, noting initial successes followed by challenges such as increased drug use and overdose deaths. Owen suggests that effective legalization requires comprehensive harm reduction strategies and adequate treatment infrastructure.

Notable Quote:

[37:20] Owen Flanagan: "If you could... allow methadone and epinephrine as substitute opiates... people might be able to take dosages which would also allow them to live a decent human life."

He underscores the complexity of drug policy, emphasizing that legalization alone is insufficient without accompanying measures to support addicts and mitigate negative outcomes.

Advice for Friends and Families of Addicts

Owen offers compassionate advice to the loved ones of addicts, encouraging them not to internalize guilt if they choose to distance themselves for their well-being. He highlights the toxic nature of active addiction and the necessity for addicts to take responsibility in their recovery journey.

Notable Quote:

[40:36] Owen Flanagan: "They shouldn't feel too guilty if they have to distance themselves and walk away from the relationship."

Reflections and Recommendations for Leading a Good Life

When prompted to advise Steve Levitt on living a fulfilling life, Owen emphasizes the importance of various forms of love—romantic, familial, and friendships—as central sources of joy and meaning. Conversely, he cautions against excessive consumption of digital media and addictive behaviors, advocating for more genuine social interactions.

Notable Quote:

[42:38] Owen Flanagan: "Love, friendship... are the best things in life."

Listener Engagement and Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with an interactive segment where the producer, Morgan Levy, quizzes Owen on podcast download statistics, blending lighthearted engagement with informative insights. Steve and Owen encourage listeners to reflect on their own habits and consider the broader implications of addiction in its various forms.

Notable Quote:

[44:19] Steve Levitt: "Owen Flanagan's book on addiction is entitled 'What Is It Like to Be an Addict?' It's a fascinating combination of highly personal memoir and cutting-edge scientific thinking on addiction."

Conclusion

Episode 151 offers a profound exploration of addiction through the lens of a scholar who has both studied and personally endured its challenges. Owen Flanagan bridges the gap between neuroscience, philosophy, and lived experience, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of addiction's multifaceted nature. The discussion emphasizes the need for nuanced models of addiction, informed drug policies, and compassionate support systems for those affected.

For those interested in further exploring Owen Flanagan's insights, his book "What Is It Like to Be an Addict?" serves as an invaluable resource, blending personal narrative with academic analysis to illuminate the human condition.