Podcast Summary: People I (Mostly) Admire

Episode 158: "Why Did Rome Fall — and Are We Next?"

Date: May 24, 2025
Host: Steve Levitt
Guest: Tom Holland (Historian, Author, "Rubicon," Co-host of "The Rest Is History")

Overview

In this captivating episode, Steve Levitt sits down with historian Tom Holland to explore what led to the fall of democracy in ancient Rome, how similar patterns play out in modern democracies like the US, and what history can teach us about the dangers, resilience, and fragility of political systems. They cover topics from Roman myths and parallels with America, to the roots of Western morality, lost libraries, and Holland’s journey from failed novelist to bestselling historian.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Fragility and Rarity of Democracies

[01:52]

• Levitt’s Opening Concern: Levitt shares his assumption that American democracy will persist, questioning its naivete given history.
• Tom Holland: Emphasizes that democratic governments are "aberrant and unusual" in history.
  • "If you look at the broad sweep of the world... democracies are fairly aberrant and unusual." (Holland, 02:48)
  • The anxiety that American democracy might not be permanent is longstanding, echoing Roman fears of slipping into autocracy.

2. American Republic as a Roman Echo

[03:50-06:02]

• US parallels with Rome are not accidental. The Founding Fathers openly modeled US institutions (Capitol, Senate) on Roman examples.
  • "If you are comparing your infant republic with the Roman republic, the one thing that everyone knows about the Roman republic is that the Roman republic ends up an autocracy." (Holland, 04:15)
• This persistent anxiety about autocracy is part of both American culture and historical cycles.

3. Why Democracies Start — The Roman Myth

[07:08]

• The Roman founding myth (asylum for all, merger with Sabines) underlined a unique capacity to integrate outsiders and forge a strong civic identity.
  • "For Rome, the notion that a common civic identity can be fashioned out of all these various people means... they’re very good at absorbing outsiders..." (Holland, 07:21)
• Levitt notes the uncanny similarities to US identity, highlighting the mythic elements in national self-constructions.

4. The Fall of the Roman Republic: Caesar, Populism, and Legal Peril

[09:37-16:57]

• Caesar’s rise: Leveraged immense wealth, populist tactics, and military power to overshadow republican institutions.
• Populism and performance: "Politics in ancient Rome is about vibe... and Caesar's ability to combine wealth, political ruthlessness and showmanship ends up bringing the republic crashing down." (Holland, 11:23)
• Criminal prosecution: Legal threats to Caesar (once out of office) pushed him to seize power—an interesting parallel with Trump’s alleged motivations.
  • "Caesar, as the governor... has immunity... the moment that term finishes... his enemies can bring him to trial." (Holland, 14:36)
• Trump as Caesar? Holland is unconvinced: "I just don’t think that he has the patience, really. He’s too old. I think he’s too lazy, really." (Holland, 16:57)

5. How Ancient History Survives (and Why It’s Tragic How Much Is Lost)

[19:13-24:08]

• Details like oyster monopolists and cracked plaster survive due to chance, the copying of manuscripts, and historical popularity.
  • "If it hadn’t [survived], then we wouldn’t know about it [Roman details]." (Holland, 20:47)
• Papyrus decays; most ancient writings are gone. Survival often a matter of what successive generations thought worth copying.
  • "It’s a popularity contest... Cicero is copied because he is seen... as the model of Latin prose." (Holland, 23:20)

6. The Early History of Islam and Difficulties of Documentation

[24:08-27:37]

• Unlike Rome, most details about Muhammad (outside the Quran) appear much later and are heavily shaped by theology.
  • "The historical Muhammad has had many layers of theologically inspired wallpaper... it's actually very difficult to know what lies beneath that wallpaper." (Holland, 24:28)
• What Muslims believe about Muhammad is based on later traditions, not contemporary records.

7. Generals, Leadership, and the ‘Learn on the Job’ Approach

[27:08-29:23]

• How figures like Muhammad, Caesar, and Hannibal became great generals: part innate genius, part learning from mistakes, and much trial and error.

8. Western Morality as Uniquely Christian

[29:23-35:46]

• Holland’s thesis from "Dominion": Modern concepts of human rights, compassion, sanctity of life, etc., are not universal—they’re rooted in centuries of Christian ethical influence.
  • "I think that Christianity has been such a profound conditioning influence... that it is very difficult for us, even if we may define ourselves as atheists, to escape that." (Holland, 30:01)
• Romans had strict but very different morality, including public celebration of conquest and different sexual ethics.
• Even contemporary culture wars, Holland suggests, often replay theological debates "in secular dress."
  • "There’s pretty much nothing in the culture wars... that are not arguments about Christian theology." (Holland, 35:46)

9. Tom Holland’s Unusual Path: Academic Setbacks, Vampires, and Popular History

[37:24-41:57]

• Started as an aspiring novelist; wrote vampire novels based on Lord Byron being a real vampire, which led to historical writing.
  • "To be honest, the vampires got in the way of everything that made the history interesting." (Holland, 40:10)
• No formal history qualifications; initial trepidation, yet received kindness and support from academic historians.

10. Why ‘The Rest Is History’ Podcast Succeeds

[44:54-47:07]

• Chemistry with co-host Dominic Sandbrook.
• Their approach: Don’t preach. Dive into the strangeness and variety of the human past, making it relatable and surprising.
  • "Ultimately, what history provides is an illustration of just how many ways there are to be human." (Holland, 45:21)

11. What Will Future Historians Consider Important?

[47:07-50:21]

• Covid’s historical significance depends on its cause and future echoes (lab leaks, antibiotic resistance).
• Likely important: Rise of artificial intelligence, current mass extinction, and continued innovations in ways humanity can self-destruct.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On American political anxiety:
  "That anxiety has been a shadow over American political life pretty much ever since." (Holland, 04:15)

• On the persistence of history:
  "If it hadn’t [survived], then we wouldn’t know about it." (Holland, 20:47)
  "It’s not just how little has survived, but how much has survived." (Holland, 20:47)

• On popular morality:
  "[Romans] had a very stern moral framework... But, for instance, a Roman would have seen nothing wrong at all with what Harvey Weinstein did." (Holland, 32:28)

• On Christianity and modern values:
  "We are conditioned to assume [Christian values] are good because we are the products of Christian society." (Holland, 30:01)

• On the mission of a public historian:
  "History is really the only academic discipline that is also a branch of literature." (Holland, 42:29)

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Summary | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:52 | Introduction of main theme: fragility of democracies, US & Rome comparisons | | 07:21 | How Roman myths shaped civic identity and resilience | | 11:23 | Populism, wealth, and performance in Caesar’s political tactics | | 14:36 | Legal perils of politicians: Caesar, Trump, and structural vulnerabilities | | 19:13 | How ancient history survives—chance, copying, and loss | | 24:28 | The challenge of writing historical biographies in religious traditions | | 30:01 | Christianity’s influence on Western moral frameworks | | 32:28 | Roman morality vs. modern (Weinstein example) | | 37:45 | Tom Holland’s career journey from failed novelist to historian | | 44:54 | Relationship with academic history, stereotype-busting | | 45:21 | Philosophy behind "The Rest Is History" podcast | | 47:36 | What future historians might see as pivotal: COVID, AI, extinction |

Overall Tone and Style

The conversation is lively, accessible, and intellectually rich, reflecting Holland’s talent for storytelling and Levitt’s probing curiosity. Holland’s humor, humility, and depth shine through—he shares anecdotes about his own career path, and both speakers express open-mindedness about history’s meaning and importance.

For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

This discussion draws accessible, meaningful parallels between Rome and modern America, unpacks why our deepest beliefs and fears are encoded in myths and religion, and offers a candid look at what it means to be a historian today. Whether you’re interested in ancient history, current events, or the making of great public scholarship, this episode bridges it all with wit and warmth.