Podcast Summary: "A New Kind of University"
People I (Mostly) Admire – Episode 172
Host: Steve Levitt
Guest: Michael Crow, President of Arizona State University
Release Date: December 6, 2025
Episode Overview
This episode centers on the astounding transformation of Arizona State University (ASU) under president Michael Crow. Steve Levitt explores Crow’s radical vision for public universities—one that rebels against elite exclusion and reinvents the purpose and practice of higher education at scale. The conversation covers institutional innovation, breaking out of outdated competitive models, major experiments in curriculum and technology, the role of AI in education, and Crow's own leadership style. With ASU now widely regarded as the country’s most innovative university, the episode is an in-depth look at what it takes to build a university for the 21st century—and what that means for the future of academia.
Key Discussion Points
1. The Origins of ASU’s Radical Reinvention
- Background: When Crow arrived at ASU in 2002, the university was best known as the nation’s top party school ([03:07]).
- Vision: Crow sought to break from the traditional, elitist and exclusionary college models (Ivy League, British systems) and instead design a large-scale, inclusive, innovative university tuned for American democracy ([05:31]).
- Quote:
"You need scale and speed and innovation...For a democracy to be successful, universities cannot only be the remnants of colonial colleges."
— Michael Crow, [03:22]
2. Rejecting the Old Game of Rankings and Exclusion
- Critique of Higher Ed: Levitt and Crow agree that most universities are fixated on climbing rankings instead of serving students or society ([07:35]).
- Crow’s Response:
"Exclusion or selectivity is the coin of the realm...If you run the entire system that way, the country won’t be successful."
— Michael Crow, [08:11] - ASU’s Approach: Built a model prioritizing inclusion, community impact, and research excellence.
- Metrics: Overhauled departments, eliminated 85 departments, and created 40+ new entities ([11:35]).
3. Innovation as Identity: Transformation at Massive Scale
- Repeated Wins: ASU has been ranked #1 in innovation by U.S. News & World Report for 11 straight years ([10:35]).
- Combining Scale and Innovation:
"It's really amazing to be both big and innovative...We added continuous innovation as a cultural value."
— Steve Levitt, [12:37]; Michael Crow, [10:58] - Department Overhauls: Example: merging geology and astronomy into a School of Earth and Space Exploration, skyrocketing astronomy majors from 15-20 to over 500 ([12:37]).
4. Access, Inclusion, and a New Charter
- ASU Charter:
- Measures success by whom they include, not exclude.
- Focused on student success, public benefit from research, and impact on community outcomes ([20:25]).
- Quote:
"We will measure ourself based on the number of students that we include versus the number we exclude and how they succeed."
— Michael Crow, [20:25] - Radical Inclusion: ASU’s engineering program now admits any student meeting basic standards, then supports them with innovative teaching and learning tools. Engineering graduates increased from 900 to over 7,000 annually ([24:18]).
- Virtual Reality in Biology: Developed immersive VR labs (in partnership with Hollywood’s Walter Parks) for intro biology, resulting in up to 40% learning improvements ([27:41]).
5. Rethinking Introductory Science (Dreamscape Learn)
- Narrative + Immersion: VR and storytelling used to take students through science labs in alien zoos or as chemistry detectives in the Himalayas ([27:13], [29:46]).
- Measured Impact: A “two grade-level” improvement in biology scores; major expansion into other disciplines underway ([27:41]).
- Radical Collaboration:
"It’s not a product. We saw the genius of storytelling and linked it with pedagogy."
— Michael Crow, [29:46]
6. Leadership and Organizational Change
- Faculty Resistance: Addressed inertia by creating shared vision, empowering faculty as designers, and positioning impact in society as a core purpose ([31:57]).
- Culture of Progress:
"Consistent message...player-coach for 20+ years...still making progress."
— Michael Crow, [41:24]
7. Succession and Spreading the Model
- After Crow: The next leader’s task is to refine and advance, not overhaul, the ASU model ([41:57]).
- Crow’s Vision Beyond ASU: Innovation Alliance network of ~20 universities pursuing similar models (e.g., Michigan State, Purdue, UC Riverside, Virginia Commonwealth) ([43:05]).
8. The Coming Wave: AI in Education
- Immediate Implementation: ASU has 3,000 faculty trained in AI, three campus AI systems, and a new project with Will.i.am on personalized “agentic” tutors ([44:09]).
- Organizing Knowledge: Emphasis on tools that are curated and contextual, not just generic chatbots ([45:33]).
- Challenge:
"If the AI becomes the substitute for the student, then we’ve failed as the teacher."
— Michael Crow, [47:45] - AI and Engagement: The ultimate goal of technology—whether VR or AI—is to foster engagement and motivation to learn ([50:18]).
- Quote:
"To me, it really seems like the name of the game in education going forward is: how do you get students to actually want to learn?...Now, we’re faced with a harder problem."
— Steve Levitt, [50:19]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On breaking free of tradition:
"It's the part of Britain that we didn't throw out with the revolution...We kept British universities—and with them, a system with selectivity as the coin of the realm."
— Michael Crow, [08:11] - On the meaning of innovation:
"You’ve disrupted from the core of the enterprise, not from the outside."
— Clayton Christensen (quoted by Crow), [13:11] - Humor in university selectivity:
"Stanford had become the greatest university in the country because they had admitted no one."
— Michael Crow, [22:48] - Storytelling and Engagement:
“You never cry in a chemistry lab or a biology lab unless you’re failing. So there’s no emotional connection, there’s no story.”
— Michael Crow, [28:16]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- [02:09] – Michael Crow on ASU’s unique opportunity for radical change
- [05:49] – ASU as a model for a “new American university”
- [07:35] – The exclusion arms race in higher ed
- [10:35] – ASU’s consecutive innovation awards; examples of transformation
- [12:37] – Revamping academic departments and scaling up majors
- [20:25] – ASU’s new charter and the logic of inclusion
- [27:13] – Virtual reality and the reinvention of intro biology
- [31:57] – Crow’s strategies for leading change and empowering faculty
- [41:24] – On building institutional culture and legacy
- [43:05] – Spreading the model: University Innovation Alliance
- [44:09] – Integrating AI into the core of university teaching and learning
- [46:55] – The dual-edged impact of AI: potential and pitfalls
- [50:19] – Levitt and Crow discuss the future: how can education truly engage students?
Final Reflections & Podcast News
- Personal Impact: Levitt and Crow reflect on the meaning, methods, and legacies of education, revealing how big vision and relentless iteration can breathe new life into old institutions.
- Show Announcement ([51:51]–[58:11]):
- People I (Mostly) Admire will end in two weeks, with one final interview: Steve Levitt himself, interviewed by Stephen Dubner.
- Levitt reflects on the podcast’s personal journey and invites listener voice memos about episodes that impacted them.
Conclusion
This episode offers an unvarnished look at university transformation, as Michael Crow recounts the deliberate and sometimes disruptive path ASU took to become a new model for higher education. Key takeaways include the dangers of exclusionary prestige, the essential role of innovation at massive scale, and the urgent need for universities to become more inclusive, adaptive, and engaged. Michael Crow and Steve Levitt close by confronting the coming challenges and opportunities of technology—especially AI—in the classroom, leaving listeners with both an example of what’s possible and pointed questions for the future of learning.