People I (Mostly) Admire – Episode 173

"Steve Levitt Says Goodbye to People I (Mostly) Admire"
Released: December 20, 2025
Host: Stephen Dubner (interviewer), Steven Levitt (guest)

Episode Overview

In this final episode, Steven Levitt, longtime host and Freakonomics co-author, reflects on the five-year journey of "People I (Mostly) Admire" (PIMA) as he prepares to end the show. Levitt gets interviewed by his friend and co-author Stephen Dubner, flipping the familiar script. Together, they examine how podcasting transformed Levitt, the show's origins, the lessons he’s learned about learning, curiosity, and engagement, his next projects, and the impact of meaningful conversations. Levitt and Dubner also discuss memorable moments, difficult interviews, and what's next for both Levitt and the Freakonomics universe. The episode closes with touching listener voice memos about the show's impact.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why End the Show Now?

Levitt's Motivation and the Arc of PIMA

• Despite an ever-growing list of impressive guests, Levitt chooses to step away, feeling both fulfilled and in search of new challenges.
• He reflects on the difficulty of booking dream guests and what he hoped to achieve (e.g., an interview with Joel Osteen), and the limits of celebrity-driven interview “markets.”
• Quote:

  “There are endless people I admire... I thought as we got [our guest] list... everyone would just come. But they don't.” — Levitt (02:56)

2. How Hosting Changed Levitt

• Levitt admits hosting was "the last thing I ever should have done," given his nature as an introvert and rationalist (01:57).
• Despite discomfort, being an interviewer structured his life, forced growth, and led to unexpected personal and intellectual rewards.
• Preparation ("a real tax on my time") made each episode meaningful and led him to read more and become intellectually re-engaged.
• Quote:

  “Every idea that I have just put out there, I have stolen from one of my guests and repackaged it in my own words. There’s no doubt about that.” — Levitt (28:23)

3. Origin of the Podcast

• Levitt recalls being "tricked" into podcasting by Dubner—initial guest hosting on Freakonomics Radio, then interviewing Rahm Emanuel, despite being nervous and inexperienced (08:42–09:46).
• The discipline of deadlines and engaging with ideas rather than generating them re-energized him.
• Timestamps:
  • Deciding to do the show (08:42)
  • First challenging interview: Rahm Emanuel (09:17)

4. Levitt’s Work and Passions After PIMA

• Levitt discusses launching the Levitt Lab, new approaches to education, and scaling up to more locations (12:52).
• He’s inspired by mastery learning, influenced by interviews with Sal Khan and David Yeager, aiming to overhaul how students engage with knowledge and success (14:09–16:11).
• The emotional resonance of seeing young people engaged in learning outweighs his self-ascribed lack of people skills.
• Quote:

  “If I could actually make a dent in the way that we teach and change education, that would really feel like I did something.” — Levitt (13:57)

5. Rethinking Education, Motivation, and AI

• Levitt critiques the "rat race" of modern education, drawing from personal experience and conversations with guests.
• He champions individualized learning and celebrating diverse forms of student achievement rather than a single “valedictorian” mold.
• Discusses how AI is a double-edged sword:
  • For the engaged, it’s a powerful tool for "just-in-time" learning.
  • For the disengaged, it enables avoidance of learning.
• Quote:

  “If students are not engaged, they can get by without learning a single thing... If we can get students engaged, we will have unbelievable results, and if we don’t, we are facing disaster.” — Levitt (22:41)

6. Standout Episodes and Guests

Levitt recounts his most memorable interviews:

• Daughters Amanda and Lily (Ep. 46): Surprising emotional openness and connection in studio.
• Dr. BJ Miller: Deep, honest conversation about death, disability, and meaning (32:06–34:23).
• Wendy MacNaughton: A rare artist-economist conversation; immediate emotional connection (34:23–34:59).
• Yuval Noah Harari: Risking direct critique, Levitt elicits a unique, open exchange, producing the show's most popular episode (35:57–38:27).

Quote:

"BJ [Miller] talks about death in a way that I've never heard anyone talk about it. My favorites almost always involve episodes that have a human connection because... this has really been my primary way of making real connections." — Levitt (33:50)

7. Challenges and Disappointments

Levitt details some "misses" and difficult guests:

• Richard Dawkins: Difficult dynamic, but won the guest over by end, leading to a follow-up live event that Levitt felt he mishandled (40:03–42:13).
• Jared Diamond: Disappointing; deeply scripted and repetitive.
• Werner Herzog and Arnold Schwarzenegger: Both refused to engage off-script; Herzog insisted only on talking about poetry, Schwarzenegger wouldn’t wear headphones, limiting dialogue (42:36–43:45).
  Despite frustrations, Levitt finds value in both process and outcome.

8. What’s Next for Levitt and the Show

• PIMA will rebroadcast its archive.
• Levitt will guest host episodes of Freakonomics Radio, excited to tackle policy and impact.
• He expresses hope that he’s "quitting at the right time"—“at least I didn't wait too long” (51:01).
• Quote:

  “What you do on Freakonomics Radio is actually journalism, and I'm excited to try my hand at being a journalist for a little while.” — Levitt (50:37)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “It is true that being an interviewer was roughly the last thing I ever should have done.” — Levitt (01:57, again echoed at 28:38)
• “A regular person, if you substitute the word 'universe' [for 'God'], they’d be like, 'what are you talking about? It doesn’t make sense.' ...But it's a much easier concept for me to grasp.” — Levitt (05:20)
• “In a typical school, there’s only one way to succeed. ...At our school, kids are writing their own music, making stop motion films... Or a novella. ...As long as you open the aperture ...suddenly you go from a world in which it’s us versus them... to all the kids at the school being empowered to do great stuff.” — Levitt (19:24–21:27)
• “Every idea that I have just put out there, I have stolen from one of my guests and repackaged it in my own words.” — Levitt (28:23)
• “You can have very little talent for interviewing, but I think if you've really prepared, it can still go pretty well.” — Levitt (35:57)
• “Even though I know it's the right thing to do, it's still hard to say goodbye to this podcast.” — Levitt (51:08)

Important Timestamps

• 02:56 — Levitt on the realities of booking high-profile guests.
• 08:42 — How PIMA began; Levitt’s early reluctance and nervousness.
• 12:52 — Levitt on stopping the show and investing in his education ventures.
• 16:11 — The influence of Sal Khan and mastery learning.
• 22:41 — Reflections on AI, engagement, and the future of education.
• 28:23 — How Levitt’s approach to ideas evolved.
• 32:00–35:00 — Levitt's top 3 most meaningful episodes.
• 40:03–42:13 — Lessons from difficult interviews (Dawkins, Diamond, Herzog, Schwarzenegger).
• 47:20 — Announcement of Levitt appearing on future Freakonomics Radio episodes.
• 51:53–55:07 — Touching listener voice memos on the show's impact.

Listener Impact and Final Reflections

The episode concludes with four emotionally resonant listener messages, each highlighting how PIMA changed perspectives, inspired academic research, or provoked major life decisions (e.g., changing careers based on Sendhil Mullainathan's advice about environment and identity). Levitt is visibly moved, noting how it reinforces the “community of smart, thoughtful people” the podcast helped create (51:53).

Conclusion: The Legacy of PIMA

Levitt’s swan song is honest, wry, and ultimately optimistic—reinforcing the value of curiosity, authenticity, and deep work, while acknowledging that change and discomfort are necessary for evolution. As Levitt steps away from PIMA, he looks forward to guest-hosting Freakonomics Radio, with the hope of amplifying his impact on education and policy, and Dubner celebrates Levitt’s growth as both a thinker and interviewer.

“Maybe that’s why I mostly admire you.” — Diana Choquette, listener (55:07)

For Fans and New Listeners

Whether you’re a longtime devotee or a newcomer, this episode captures the spirit of curiosity, humility, and honest conversation that made "People I (Mostly) Admire" special. The full archive will replay, and Levitt promises to stay present—albeit in new forms. The community, the thoughtful advice, and the willingness to become a learner once again—these are the show’s enduring gifts.