People I (Mostly) Admire — Episode 3: Kerwin Charles

Airdate: January 17, 2026
Host: Steve Levitt (with cameo from Stephen Dubner)
Guest: Kerwin Charles, Dean of Yale School of Management, pioneering labor economist
Episode Title: “One Does Not Know Where an Insight Will Come From”

Main Theme / Purpose

This episode features a wide-ranging conversation between Steve Levitt and Kerwin Charles, exploring Charles's journey from a small village in Guyana to becoming Dean of the Yale School of Management. It covers his pioneering economic research, personal upbringing, views on race in America, policy thoughts, and parenting philosophy. Levitt and Charles reflect on what it means to thrive intellectually and ethically while navigating both professional and personal crossroads.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Early Life and Upbringing (03:11–05:40)

• Charles describes his formative years in Buxton, Guyana—a small, poor village, yet filled with love and community support.
• His parents, both educators and lifelong learners, inspired a sense of “stick-to-itiveness, grit, and not whining.”
• Quote: “Despite the challenges that were inevitably to lie across my path… I was given equipment to surmount them.” (Kerwin Charles, 03:34)

2. Education and Path to the U.S. (05:49–06:50)

• Early exposure to American culture shaped his ambitions and interests—especially frequent visits to the local American library and reading Sports Illustrated.
• He received a scholarship to Miami, intending to return home, but his career and life evolved in the U.S.
• Quote: “America fascinated me as a place... when came time to go to college, I had the chance to come to Miami.” (Kerwin Charles, 06:13)

3. Craft of Public Speaking (06:50–08:27)

• Charles credits his mother for honing his gift for public speaking through childhood practice.
• Encourages others to slow down and approach both speaking and writing with intent and clarity.
• Quote: “However slow you think you're going, go half of it slower... Have something to set and you'll be good.” (Kerwin Charles, 07:39)

4. Tuberculosis Research and Insights on Public Health (08:27–11:00)

• Explains a pivotal paper: tuberculosis rates fell dramatically before medical interventions were developed—challenging previous public health narratives.
• Causes may include social and environmental shifts beyond direct interventions.
• Quote: “Public health interventions did not have the effect that much of the literature had before us concluded... there's some other thing at work.” (Kerwin Charles, 09:59)

5. Work on Labor Market Decline and Video Games (13:34–16:55)

• Charles, with Eric Hurst and others, has researched declining workforce participation among young men, tying part of it to the rise of video games.
  • About a fifth of young men are neither in school nor working. Many are “out of work” due to both labor market demand and the allure of technology/leisure.
• Quote: “Technological shocks had the effect of raising the opportunity cost of going to work... for men [that leisure is]...video games.” (Kerwin Charles, 14:56)
• Levitt: “It was one of the most distinct occasions of walking into a room thinking this was the stupidest idea... and walking out as a complete 100% believer.” (15:46)

6. Decision-Making as a Leader (16:55–18:44)

• Reflects on decision-making in academia and leadership: some choices require immediate action, others deep contemplation.
• Advises comfort with heterogeneity in decision-making styles, and staying open to revision based on new evidence.
• Quote: “Events might prove me wrong, and if events prove me wrong, you should not feel belittled by that. You should just pivot and change...” (Kerwin Charles, 17:56)

7. Navigating Race and Identity as an Immigrant (20:19–22:19)

• Charles experienced both pan-African solidarity and cultural differences among Black communities in America.
• He found both unity and distinction with African Americans—emphasizing respect for differences while seeking connection.
• Quote: “It's not an unbridgeable chasm, but there are differences... my first girlfriends in the U.S. were African American women who would say, let me take you down to this place... and it had a profound effect on me.” (Kerwin Charles, 21:19)

8. Black Economic Progress in the U.S.: Success and Disappointment (22:19–29:57)

• Discusses historic milestones (post-Civil War amendments, Civil Rights, Brown v. Board) and their impact.
• At the elite levels, Black advancement is dramatic; for the bottom half, there’s persistent and worsening gaps in unemployment, incarceration, and opportunity.
• Highlights how “race-neutral” economic shifts often disproportionately hurt African Americans.
• Quote: “Always mixed in with the good news is some bad or some very bad.” (Kerwin Charles, 23:44)

9. Policy Prescriptions for Racial Progress (29:57–33:00)

• 1. Expand college attendance and counseling for Black Americans.
• 2. Provide analytical and technical skill-building, both in and out of college.
• 3. Address the monumental racial wealth gap through creative policies—possibly reparations or race-conscious liquidity transfers.
• Quote: “The difference in wealth between African Americans and whites is gargantuan... This notion about history and intergenerational dynamics is... important in the African American context...” (Kerwin Charles, 31:32)

10. Racial Segregation and Cultural Cleavage (33:00–34:49)

• Noted persistent de facto racial segregation in social and cultural realms, with little overlap even in media consumption.
• Argues deep interaction reduces misunderstanding and bias.
• Quote: “There's kind of deep comprehension and deep sensitivity that comes from being closely connected with and not segregated from other people.” (Kerwin Charles, 34:13)

11. Race and Society in Guyana vs. U.S. (34:49–37:08)

• Guyana’s racial mix is more fluid socially, but deeply political and volatile around elections—especially after oil discoveries raised the stakes.
• Warns that unless racial tensions are resolved, resource discovery could divide the nation.
• Quote: “Despite this incredible discovery, not much good will come from it unless we solve this fundamental race and ethnicity problem.” (Kerwin Charles, 38:29)

12. Thoughts on Parenting (39:03–40:26)

• Advocates accepting and nurturing children as they are, instead of imposing parents’ passions.
• Quote: “Let their passion become your passion. And let disappointment in what they do or who they are never enter your mind.” (Kerwin Charles, 39:53)

13. Teaching Children about Race and American Belonging (40:26–43:13)

• Wants his sons to be confident in their identity, proud of their heritage, and also fully claim their place as Americans.
• Integrates African American history, music, and food as tools for building belonging and perspective.
• Quote: “I’m teaching them to love the special thing about them... and then to say, look, you belong to the American family.” (Kerwin Charles, 42:42)

14. Playful Farewell (43:39–43:55)

• Charles slips and calls Chicago “home,” then corrects himself to New Haven. The hosts leave this in as a warm, genuine moment.
• Quote: “Man. I miss. I miss Chicago... Back home. Back. Back there. That was a slip. New Haven's home.” (Kerwin Charles, 43:39)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Opportunity and Openness:
  “One does not know as one traverses one's life, where a helpful relationship will form, where an insight will come from.”
  (Kerwin Charles, 05:23; also, episode title)

• On Social Mobility:
  “There's a sense of unlikelihood and then there's a sense that whatever I wanted to do, it would be difficult to achieve, but achievable.”
  (Kerwin Charles, 03:58)

• On Parenting:
  “Let disappointment in what they do or who they are never enter your mind.”
  (Kerwin Charles, 39:53)

• On Economic Progress:
  “No one could have reasonably predicted in 1970 that more than a million black people, as we talk on the phone, would be in jail.”
  (Kerwin Charles, 24:28)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Early years in Guyana: 03:11–05:40
• Public speaking insights: 06:50–08:27
• Tuberculosis research: 08:27–11:00
• Video games and labor market: 13:34–16:55
• Race and the immigrant experience: 20:19–22:19
• Racial economic progress: 22:19–29:57
• Policy ideas for racial equity: 29:57–33:00
• Cultural segregation: 33:16–34:49
• Guyana’s race dynamics and oil discovery: 36:42–39:03
• Parenting philosophy: 39:03–40:26
• Talking to kids about race: 40:26–43:13
• Closing/farewell: 43:39–43:55

Summary Tone & Language

The conversation is thoughtful, reflective, and often candid. Levitt and Charles maintain a tone of curiosity, sincerity, and gentle humor—never shying away from complexity or nuance. Charles’s responses are eloquent and measured, bringing both academic rigor and lived experience to every topic.

This episode offers a profound and personal journey through the mind and life of one of America’s most insightful economists, making it a must-listen for anyone interested in economics, leadership, race, and the real stories behind achievement.