People I (Mostly) Admire – Episode 7:

Caverly Morgan: "I Am Not This Voice. I Am Not This Narrative."

Podcast: Freakonomics Radio + Stitcher
Date: February 14, 2026
Host: Steve Levitt
Guest: Caverly Morgan (former Zen monk, mindfulness educator, founder of Peace in Schools)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Steve Levitt delves into the transformative world of mindfulness and presence with Caverly Morgan. A former Zen monk who spent eight years living in silence, Caverly is now devoted to bringing deep contemplative practices into mainstream education. The conversation explores her unlikely spiritual journey, her pioneering work with high school students through the Peace in Schools program, and the foundational belief that “I am not this voice, I am not this narrative.” The episode offers insights on mindfulness, the limitations of traditional education, transformative tools for self-awareness, and wrestles with deeper questions of identity, suffering, and the role of spiritual teachers.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction to Caverly Morgan

• Background: Upper-middle-class upbringing in Charlottesville, Virginia, not particularly religious or spiritual as a child.
• Spiritual Spark: Moved by witnessing moments of surrender and connection in others, such as a man in church raising his arms in freedom from ego and narrative. (05:49)
• First Encounter with Zen: A friend gave her the book That Which You Are Seeking Is Causing You To Seek. Signed up for a silent Zen retreat, initially unaware of its requirements. (06:55)

The Silent Retreat Experience

• Surprise and Resistance: At her first Zen retreat, expected relaxation and camaraderie with friends but was shocked by complete silence and lack of eye contact. Deep resistance arising from the “inner dialogue.” (08:43)

• First Major Insight: Developed distance from her thoughts for the first time, seeing them as a narrative rather than truth.

  “I am not this voice. I’m not this narrative. This narrative is something that I'm aware of and it was a radical perspective opener for me.”
  (09:41 - Caverly Morgan)

• Resulting Transformation: Left the retreat feeling "on fire" and awakened, seeking more retreats despite her friends' different reactions. (12:13)

Training as a Zen Monk

• Path to Monasticism: Gradually transitioned from attending retreats to living in a Zen monastery in Northern California for eight years, despite initial resistance to "becoming a monk." (12:26)

• Letting Go: Did not initially cut all ties or possessions but gradually embraced more monastic structure.

• Defining Zen:

  “The best expression of Zen would probably be silence… but for me, it truly can be boiled down to the word presence.”
  (14:51 - Caverly Morgan)

• Presence Explained:

  “You can actually place your attention where you want it to be. And again, the result of that is empowerment.”
  (15:27 - Caverly Morgan)

• Daily Monastic Life: Structure, frequent sitting meditations, strict separation, sometimes not speaking to people for years.

  “I now see [that life] as not required in order to have a life of presence… so few people would hear this and be drawn to go have this experience.”
  (18:17–19:15 - Caverly Morgan)

Leaving the Monastery

• Prompted by Her Teacher: Realized she could not reconcile monastic isolation with engaging in the wider world; forced to grapple with bringing mindfulness into everyday, non-monastic life. (19:42)
• Key Reconciliation:

  “…You either go to a place very dedicated to spiritual practice, remove yourself from the world and then you can have enlightenment and peace, or you live this worldly life that is just bound to all of this suffering… I was thrown into a deep reconciliation process.”
  (20:14 - Caverly Morgan)

Mindfulness in Public Schools: Peace in Schools

• Genesis: Invited to teach mindfulness to high school students after a teacher experienced her adult workshop; immediate, organic interest from teens. (22:33)

• Why Teens?:

  “Teens were on fire. They were like sponges… For the kid… who thinks of themselves as the class outcast, to realize that they have the exact same voice as the popular cheerleader… was just profound.”
  (22:33 - Caverly Morgan)

• Program Structure:

  • Insisted on teaching during the school day for reach and equity. (24:31)
  • At Wilson High School, over 300 students wanted to take the class, resulting in an elective "Mindful Studies" course with 75+ hours of instruction—far more immersive than typical mindfulness interventions. (25:06)

• Curriculum Tools and Exercises:

  • Exploration of negative self-talk, making the internal critic external and visible.
  • Exercises on coping mechanisms and survival strategies—exploring the societal and personal narratives teens adopt. (29:01)
  • Encourages understanding that everyone—regardless of popularity—shares similar inner voices of self-doubt.

Transformative Impact

• Powerful Testimony:

  “Mindful studies is the reason I'm alive. I wouldn't be sober without mindful studies. I wouldn't be coming to school at all without mindful studies. It is a lifeline for me.”
  (32:03 - Caverly Morgan quoting a student)

• Johns Hopkins Study: Found even greater impact among students with adverse childhood experiences. (33:01)

Program Challenges & Scalability

• Organic Growth: Success came from adapting to the needs and interests of specific schools/teachers rather than trying to radically overhaul systems. (24:31)

• Startup Stories: Funding and teachers came through rapid, sometimes serendipitous means. (28:01)

• Costs: About $250 per semester per student—substantially less than many therapeutic interventions; justified by the depth of transformation. (34:16)

• On Expansion:

  “It's not something that will move quickly because it shouldn't, because we'll compromise that integrity if it does… The best way to train an instructor is they do several weeks of immersion… So it's quite expensive to onboard a new teacher.”
  (35:04 - Caverly Morgan)

• Ensuring Integrity: Only hires teachers with deep personal mindfulness experience; trains via immersion and shadowing, not quick certification.

Mindfulness Beyond School—Children’s Book

• Motivation: Acts as a “lighthouse,” offering tools and conversations through multiple forms, including a children’s book aimed at ages 9 and up. (36:38)
• Book Reading Sample:

  “You are not your thoughts. You are not your likes and dislikes. You are not the things you worry about or even the things you believe. So if you’re not those things, who are you?... Mindfulness brings you to what’s real and true. It brings you to who you already are.”
  (38:18 - Caverly Morgan, reading)

Deeper Reflections

• On Women as Spiritual Teachers:

  “We live in a society where we're deeply conditioned to experience patriarchy in a particular way… If it's coming out of the mouth of a man, it has more validity. I had to learn to see that conditioning for what it was so that I could let it go.”
  (39:38 - Caverly Morgan)

• Parenting Advice:

  “Even a parent who may never mention the word mindfulness… if they're being fully present, if they're not judging, if they're practicing acceptance of themselves and others, it will be felt.”
  (40:31 - Caverly Morgan)

• Advice for Youth:

  “…The veil that stands between who you're conditioned to believe you are and who you really are is very, very thin… [Empowering young people]… puts a young person in a position to have impact in our world.”
  (41:10 - Caverly Morgan)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On experiencing discomfort and inquiry:

  “When we inquire deeply into the nature of discomfort, we're freed to have a different relationship with what is… So what interests me is the practice that gives us the space to pause and inquire whether this discomfort is actually just a series of thoughts that doesn't even get questioned.”
  (03:45 - Caverly Morgan)

• On presence:

  “When the mind is busy with all of this conversation about the horrible things that are going to happen in the future… we're not present…”
  (15:27 - Caverly Morgan)

• On the hidden voice:

  “You are not your thoughts.”
  (16:56 - Caverly Morgan)

• On education’s focus:

  “Our education system was designed in the 19th century and these students were not being taught how to deal with uncertainty or how to be adaptable or how to access resilience…”
  (26:25 - Caverly Morgan)

• On modeling mindfulness as a parent:

  “We forget about the power of modeling… It will be felt.”
  (40:31 - Caverly Morgan)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:45 – Inquiry into discomfort and questioning the narrative
• 08:43 – The powerful impact and resistance experienced during the first silent retreat
• 09:41 – First experience of distance from inner narrative
• 14:51 – The essence of Zen and presence explained
• 19:42 – Why Caverly left the monastery
• 22:33 – Bringing mindfulness to high schoolers and their immediate engagement
• 29:01 – Specific tools and exercises used in the Peace in Schools curriculum
• 32:03 – Student testimony: “Mindful studies is the reason I’m alive.”
• 34:16 – Cost per student and rationale behind intensive training
• 35:04 – Why true scale and quality require patience and deep teacher immersion
• 38:18 – Reading from “A Kid’s Book About Mindfulness”
• 39:38 – Reflections on gender roles in spiritual teaching
• 40:31 – Advice for parents: modeling presence
• 41:10 – Advice on empowering young people

Final Thoughts

This episode is a powerful blend of personal journey, practical application, and broader philosophical reflection. Caverly Morgan’s work points toward a future where inner awareness and emotional resilience take their rightful place in mainstream education, modeled by deeply present adults and empowered youth. The discussion is compelling for anyone interested in education, spirituality, psychology, or simply in understanding themselves with greater clarity.