People I (Mostly) Admire: Rick Rubin on How to Make Something Great (Encore Update)

Podcast: People I (Mostly) Admire
Host: Steve Levitt (with Stephen J. Dubner)
Guest: Rick Rubin
Original Conversation Date: 2023
Encore Air Date: August 23, 2025
Episode Theme: A deep dive into the creative philosophy of legendary music producer Rick Rubin, exploring his creative process, career-defining moments, and the universal nature of creativity—sparking reflections on art, openness, and self-belief.

Episode Overview

Steve Levitt revisits his conversation with Rick Rubin, acclaimed producer and co-founder of Def Jam Records, whose influence ranges across genres and generations, from Run DMC to Johnny Cash to Adele. In one of the show's most memorable episodes, Rubin discusses how to "make something great." The episode becomes both a masterclass in creative thinking and a surprisingly personal meditation on inspiration, risk-taking, and being open to wonder.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Is a Music Producer? (04:33 - 06:11)

• Rick Rubin explains: A music producer is akin to a film director, overseeing the entire creative process—not just technical aspects, but performance, material, assembly of personnel, and overall artistic vision.
  • "It's not like a movie producer. It's like a movie director. We're responsible for the overall creative content." (Rick Rubin, 04:38)
• Backgrounds of producers vary: some are musicians, some are engineers, Rubin describes himself as a "professional fan."

2. Breaking Barriers in Hip-Hop (07:02 - 15:54)

• Rubin’s Entry into Hip-Hop:
  • Started making recordings in NYU dorm; produced "It's Yours" by T LaRock and Jazzy J, then LL Cool J's first record.
  • "[Russell Simmons] looked at me...and he said, how did you make 'It's Yours'? It's the blackest record I've ever heard in my life. ...I just did what felt natural to me." (Rick Rubin, 09:24)
• Run DMC's "Walk This Way":

  • Rubin’s transformative idea: blend Run DMC (hip hop) with Aerosmith (rock), demonstrating rap’s musicality to mainstream audiences.

  • "It just seemed like there would be some way to demonstrate that rap music was music...if we could find a song that people are familiar with..." (Rick Rubin, 10:55)

  • Initial resistance from Run DMC; they warmed up when they recognized the sampled beat as "the Toys in the Attic break"—not initially knowing the song "Walk This Way".

  • Outcome: not intended to be a hit but became instantly influential, breaking the glass ceiling for hip-hop.

  • Memorable exchange:

    • “I didn't do it thinking it was gonna be a hit or anything like that. ...It was more just a demonstration..." (Rick Rubin, 14:09)
    • "[That song] did change people’s view of the world. ...It was instantaneous, and it was right in front of us the whole time.” (Stephen J. Dubner, 15:54)

3. Reviving Johnny Cash (16:30 - 25:08)

• The Johnny Cash Project: Not a commercial calculation, but a creative experiment: Could Rubin’s approach work with an older, “has-been” artist?
  • "I think we could make something really great. I don't know exactly what that would be, but I'm interested in going on the adventure with you to figure out what it would be." (Rick Rubin, 18:22)
• The Power of Stripping Down: Real magic occurred not in the studio with world-class bands, but in Rubin’s living room—just Cash, solo with his guitar.
  • "There was just something about that. ...We've never heard Johnny by himself before. Playing guitars, intimate. I believed everything he said." (Rick Rubin, 19:28)
• The “Hurt” Cover:
  • Rubin’s selection of Nine Inch Nails’ "Hurt" for Cash due to its lyrical resonance with Cash’s real-life image and age.
    • "When you're 70 and you're singing about looking back over your whole life with regret, it's really tragic." (Rick Rubin, 21:09)
  • The famous video, shot when Cash was frail, became a raw and powerful piece of art—initially so disturbing to Rubin he “felt like I was gonna throw up.” But Cash’s daughter Rosanne convinced him: “This defines you. It's so real, it's so personal.” (Rick Rubin, 23:33)

4. The Essence of Rubin’s Creative Philosophy & His Book (27:39 – 42:25)

• Rubin’s Book, The Creative Act: A Way of Being:
  • Not a memoir or a manual, but a philosophical meditation on creation.
    • "The ideas in the book are like smoke. They're very difficult to grasp. ...I wanted it to be written in a way where the reader is participating... On every page, there's an opportunity to find a new way in to solve the problem that you're looking for." (Rick Rubin, 02:11; 29:23)
  • Focuses on being present and embracing possibilities, rather than following fixed formulas.
• Levitt and Dubner’s Freakonomics Analogy:
  • Inspired by Rubin, Levitt recounts how their most successful work (“Freakonomics”) stemmed from ditching conventions and just having fun.
    • "Nobody's going to read the book anyway. Maybe we should just make a book that's fun to write." (Stephen J. Dubner, 36:11)
    • Rubin: "That's how it works. Had you had expectation…if you had to write the big book and it had to follow the rules, it couldn't have done any of the things that it did." (Rick Rubin, 36:50)
• Key Takeaway: The most damaging creative constraints are the “invisible” ones. True creativity thrives when rules are questioned or ignored.

5. On Simplicity, Childlike Wonder, and the AI “AlphaGo” Metaphor (32:00 – 35:15)

• Rubin relates a moving story from the documentary about AlphaGo beating the human grandmaster by making a move not prescribed by orthodoxy—mirroring the creative process.
  • "The computer didn't win because it was smarter than the man. ...The computer wasn't steeped in the lore of the game. ...When it turns out you can do it, and it changed the world." (Rick Rubin, 33:13)
• The importance of approaching work with childlike openness—knowing “less” can help us see the possible where others see limits.

6. On Meditation, Spirituality, and Listening to the Universe (44:31 – 51:14)

• Rubin’s Spiritual Practice:
  • Learned meditation at 14; gives him grounding and ability to sense creative direction intuitively.
    • "The spiritual grounding allows me to understand what's going on inside myself...There's very little thinking involved in the process. The thinking comes after." (Rick Rubin, 44:49)
    • "If it was good enough for the Beatles, it was good enough for me." (Rick Rubin, 47:06)
• The Openness to Inspiration:
  • Both Levitt and Rubin describe moments of ideas “finding” them, emphasizing the value of listening and openness, rather than forcing creativity.
    • "That's how the world works. You can choose not to believe it, and you don't get the benefit. ...Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." (Rick Rubin, 49:11)

7. Artistic Identity and Owning Your Canvas (51:03 – 51:48)

• A moving exchange where Levitt realizes that podcasting is his art, and creativity is not confined to traditional "artistic" disciplines.
  • "For just a little while, I was that kid again. ...Maybe I am an artist and this podcast is my canvas." (Stephen J. Dubner, 51:03)
  • Rubin affirms, "Every day, we're making incredible creative decisions. ...That's what being a human on the planet is." (Rick Rubin, 51:14)

8. Handling Failure and the Role of Detachment (51:48 – 52:47)

• Rubin’s advice: treat your setbacks like scenes from a movie—watch them with curiosity, not despair.
  • "Imagine that you're watching a movie and when something tragic happens to you, imagine you're seeing this happen to a character in a film..." (Rick Rubin, 51:56)

9. Lifelong Passion and Creative Patience (53:06 – 54:09)

• Rubin still “hungry”?
  • Absolutely. Finds ongoing thrill in the process, especially in watching something mediocre spontaneously become great. This process is mysterious—“No one in the room knows what changed, but all of a sudden it's undeniable.” (Rick Rubin, 53:48)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Creativity is not a rare ability. It's not difficult to access. Creativity is a fundamental aspect of being human. It's our birthright, and it's for all of us." (Rick Rubin, quoted by Levitt, 54:19)
• "The ideas in the book are like smoke. They're very difficult to grasp." (Rick Rubin, 02:11; 29:23)
• "Every book is a self-help book." (Rick Rubin, quoting UK publisher, 42:25)
• "We're not good at what we do because we know more. ...We're trying to get back to that state you described when you felt like you were the dumbest one in the room and you’re trying to make sense of things that don’t make sense. ...That’s the greatest place to be creating from." (Rick Rubin, 34:05)

Timeline of Important Segments

• [04:33] What a music producer truly does.
• [07:02] Rubin’s journey into hip-hop and Run DMC’s "Walk This Way".
• [16:30] Reviving Johnny Cash’s career and creative process.
• [21:09 – 23:33] "Hurt" cover and the power of context in music/art.
• [27:39] Rubin’s creative philosophy and difficulty in describing his book.
• [32:00 – 35:15] The AlphaGo (AI) story as metaphor for creativity.
• [44:49] Meditation, intuition, and spirituality in creative life.
• [51:03] Realizing art can take many forms—podcasting included.
• [54:19] Closing reflections on creativity as a universal gift.

Rick Rubin's Current Endeavors

• Vibe Coding & Interactive Art: Rubin is working on "The Way of the Timeless Art of Vibe Coding," inspired by ancient wisdom texts (Tao Te Ching), creating experiential practices and sharing via Substack.
• Tetragrammaton Project: Producing online music and philosophy content, expanding to more music channels.

"The choices were to ignore it or accept the invitation to participate. I decided the most interesting way in was to write a book on Vibe coding. ...We're also working on adding a couple more music channels to the tetragrammaton.com website." (Rick Rubin, 55:33)

Final Takeaway

This episode is an invitation to rethink creativity as something innate and accessible. Through personal stories, career highlights, and philosophical musings, Rick Rubin and the hosts reveal that creative greatness is less about expertise or rule-following, and more about openness, patience, and willingness to play. Ultimately, as Rubin contends, “It’s our birthright, and it’s for all of us.”

Recommended Listening:
For anyone seeking inspiration to break creative boundaries or simply to rediscover a sense of wonder in their work—or life.