Beauty & Wellness Brands: How to Crush Your Creative with Lauren Schwartz

Summary

Perpetual Traffic Podcast Summary
Episode: Beauty & Wellness Brands: How to Crush Your Creative with Lauren Schwartz
Release Date: April 15, 2025
Hosts: Ralph Burns and Lauren E. Petrullo
Guest: Lauren Schwartz, Creative Strategist Director at Tier 11

---

Introduction

In this episode of Perpetual Traffic, hosts Ralph Burns and Lauren E. Petrullo delve into the pivotal role of creative strategies in the marketing efforts of beauty and wellness brands. They are joined by Lauren Schwartz, the esteemed Creative Strategist Director at Tier 11, who shares her extensive expertise on navigating the complexities of creative marketing within this niche.

The Critical Role of Creative in Conversion Marketing

Ralph sets the stage by emphasizing the often-underappreciated importance of creative in the conversion engine. He highlights how creative elements are the "biggest gear" in driving performance, citing a prior case study where creative strategies led to a 57% year-over-year growth and 87% new customers for a premium beauty and wellness brand.

Notable Quote:
Ralph Burns ([02:43]): "The number one thing is creative, and we haven't given it its proper due."

Challenges in Collaborating with Creative Teams

The discussion shifts to the inherent challenges faced by marketing professionals when working with creative teams. Ralph and Lauren acknowledge that dealing with creative individuals can be tricky due to their emotional investment and attachment to their work.

Notable Quote:
Lauren Schwartz ([07:12]): "Creatives just have a different way of how they work. They're very emotional, they're very attached to their work."

Strategies for Effective Communication and Feedback

Lauren Schwartz elaborates on strategies to foster better communication between marketers and creatives. She advises focusing on constructive feedback rather than harsh criticism, ensuring that feedback is specific and actionable.

Notable Quote:
Lauren Schwartz ([08:27]): "Helping them guide that criticism into a way that's a little bit softer and just explains it a little bit better."

Ralph introduces a mock scenario with Lauren E. Petrullo acting as a demanding client, prompting Lauren Schwartz to share effective methods for handling difficult feedback. She emphasizes the importance of probing questions to uncover the specific aspects a client dislikes, allowing creatives to make precise adjustments.

Notable Quote:
Lauren Schwartz ([11:03]): "It's really just asking those questions, like, okay, what is it about the design that you don't like?"

Balancing Brand Aesthetic with Performance-Driven Content

A significant portion of the conversation centers on balancing high-end brand aesthetics with the need for authentic, performance-driven content. Lauren Schwartz provides insights on how beauty brands can maintain their sophisticated image while ensuring their creative content drives conversions.

Notable Quote:
Lauren Schwartz ([23:17]): "Beauty brands need both. They need that high-end look and appeal to show what kind of brand they are. But then they also need that really like raw organic content that will perform really well."

Ralph introduces the concept of "lo-fi" versus "hi-fi" content, advocating for a middle ground where visuals remain authentic yet polished enough to align with the brand's image.

Notable Quote:
Ralph Burns ([32:20]): "Lo-fi to a certain degree. Still on brand showing the transformation and the usage and what they're going to get out of it as opposed to just the product itself."

Case Studies and Real-World Examples

Lauren Schwartz shares a compelling case study of a makeup brand whose highly stylized product shots were contrasted with an organic video of a woman applying lip gloss. The organic video outperformed the stylized content by resonating more authentically with the audience, demonstrating the power of authentic, transformation-focused creative.

Notable Quote:
Lauren Schwartz ([28:03]): "We put that lip gloss ad in the account and it was their top performer for months."

Selling Transformations and Increasing Average Order Value (AOV)

The conversation transitions to strategies for increasing AOV through creative marketing. Lauren Schwartz discusses how bundling products and selling comprehensive beauty routines can enhance customer value and drive higher sales.

Notable Quote:
Lauren Schwartz ([35:14]): "Now let's make it more like, let's get you a higher AOV with all of your products. Let's bundle, let's do you know this, these routines and things like that."

Ralph reinforces the importance of selling not just individual products but the transformation they offer, which can lead to customers purchasing multiple items to achieve their desired look or wellness goals.

Leveraging Data to Support Creative Decisions

Both hosts and Lauren Schwartz stress the importance of data in validating creative choices. By backing creative strategies with performance data, marketers can make informed decisions that align with business objectives.

Notable Quote:
Lauren Schwartz ([21:48]): "I can look at an account and say, this will work for you, but you have to let me do my job. It's the same thing with a media buyer."

Conclusion and Future Directions

The episode concludes with the hosts expressing their intent to continue exploring the intersection of creative strategies and performance marketing in future episodes. They applaud Lauren Schwartz for her valuable insights and set the stage for a multi-part series focused on creative optimization for beauty and wellness brands.

Notable Quote:
Ralph Burns ([45:58]): "That's the cool part to this. And that's why I think the beauty and wellness niche is so fascinating to me."

Final Remarks:
Lauren E. Petrullo and Ralph Burns encourage listeners to subscribe to their YouTube channel and stay tuned for upcoming discussions that will further dissect the nuances of creative strategies in digital marketing.

---

Key Takeaways

1. Creative is Paramount: Effective creative strategies are essential for driving conversions and business growth, especially in the beauty and wellness sectors.

2. Constructive Feedback: Establishing clear, specific, and constructive feedback loops between marketers and creatives enhances collaboration and results.

3. Brand vs. Performance Balance: Maintaining a balance between high-end brand aesthetics and authentic, performance-driven content is crucial for resonating with target audiences.

4. Data-Driven Decisions: Leveraging performance data to inform creative decisions ensures that marketing efforts align with business objectives and deliver measurable results.

5. Selling Transformations: Focusing on the transformations that products offer, rather than just the products themselves, can significantly increase average order value and customer satisfaction.

Further Resources

• Case Study Referenced: Conversion Engine and Creative Traffic after the Click – Link in Show Notes
• Lauren Schwartz's LinkedIn: Lauren Schwartz on LinkedIn
• Tier 11 Website: Tier11.com
• YouTube Channel: Perpetual Traffic YouTube

---

For more insights and actionable strategies on digital marketing and creative optimization, subscribe to the Perpetual Traffic podcast and join Ralph and Lauren in their bi-weekly discussions.

Transcript

[Ralph Burns]

Our friends over at Appsumo started with one simple idea. The tools you need to grow your business shouldn't put you out of business. That's why they work directly with developers to get exclusive discounts of 80 to 90% off software, saving entrepreneurs like you over half of a billion dollars since 2010. Some of the biggest names in tech like Mailchimp, Zapier, Dropbox all got their start on Appsumo. With a rotating selection of hundreds of tools, the ones that you're using anyway and probably paying too much for, you'll find all the software you need to make your life easier in 2025. Plus, with a 60 day money back guarantee, you can try any tool risk free. Oh my God, what a deal. Appsumo rarely offers discounts, but they are going to offer a deal here for you, the Perpetual Traffic listener. Because prices are already so low, but we got the biggest discount we could possibly get from them anywhere. You get 13% off your first order with the code TRAFFIC13. These guys have been saving entrepreneurs like you and marketing people like you hundreds of millions of dollars since 2010. Don't miss out right now because they don't offer discounts like this. Head on over to appsumo.com enter the code traffic13 and get 13% off your first purchase at appsumo.com.

[Lauren Schwartz]

You'Re listening to Perpetual Traff.

[Ralph Burns]

Hello and welcome to the Perpetual Traffic podcast. This is your host, Ralph burns, founder and CEO of Tier 11, alongside my.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Amazing co host, Lauren E. Petrulo, founder of Mongoose Media.

[Ralph Burns]

So glad you joined us here today. Every single time I say that, she just glows. I just have to think of like a better adjective to describe you next time to sort of throw you off so you start laughing. Oh no, oh no. Oh no, oh no.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Practice your big vocabulary words, your fifth grade words.

[Ralph Burns]

I couldn't think of one off the top of my head. Not enough caffeine this morning. We're pretty excited about today. So if you have been a longtime listener of the show, you probably know that we haven't talked about creative as much as we probably should. Because if you go to the tier 11 website, shameless plug, look in the front page, we have this thing called the conversion engine and it's creative traffic after the click. All surrounded by data lubricated by strategy. By the way, which is the new graphic. Yep, that's right. Oil in an engine. Apparently you can't run an engine without oil. That's what like car guys tell me.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

For another reason, don't go with the car exam, but go the fun like.

[Ralph Burns]

You and your, you know, your sexual connotations. I know, you know, some of your people like that sort of thing. Here we're talking about creative, but anyway, the biggest gear in the conversion engine is creative and we haven't given it its proper due. We just did an episode, if you've been listening and we'll leave links in the show notes about a case study where we talk about the importance of creative, specifically in the beauty and wellness niche for premium beauty and wellness products. It's an area that we have a tremendous amount of expertise in. And as I was doing that show, I'm like, why don't we do more on creative? Because the creative was the thing that actually drove the whole case study, you know, to 57% year over year growth. Like 57%, 87% new customers year over year. And now they're well into, you know, an eight figure range as a business. When they came to us, they were in like the six figure range. So anyway, we'll leave links in the show notes for that. Enough us bragging about tier 11. But the number one thing is not that that'll stop me in the future, but anyway, just not right now. The point is today, speaking of bragging, we have the best creative strategist director on the planet on today's show. She just so happens to work at Tier 11. Our companies merged forces eight years ago to create the superpower that's now Tier 11. We have none other than Lauren Schwartz, formerly of Lost 325 on today's perpetual traffic. Welcome to PT.

[Lauren Schwartz]

Thank you. That was a great intro.

[Ralph Burns]

If nothing else, I could be a hype man if I drop this gig. I can go work for the circus or something like that. No, the point is that one of the reasons why we're obviously one company is because we're looking for a better creative solution within tier 11. And I think we had a very good creative team, but not world class. We started working with you because you do so many of the other things that we didn't do. And I know Lauren E. Petrulo, you guys do a fair amount of creative, so there's a lot of crossover here. But it's the biggest gear in the engine. I still do feel, even though we have a lot of shows here with John Moran on, he's talking about traffic, he's talking about business strategy, creative. I don't think it's just due. If you really look into a lot of the things that he has done. In many of the shows that we've had him on, Creative is still like, without that, none of it would actually work, especially on meta and obviously YouTube is sort of secondary to that. Google search a little bit less so display obviously less so to a certain degree. But top of funnel awareness and conversion, Creative is something that we're really going to talk about here today. So pretty excited to have you on the show. We're going to have you back a couple more times here and sort of do a series on creative. And specifically, if you have a brand that's in the beauty and wellness space, especially premium beauty and wellness space, we're going to be using a lot of those examples because you guys have a tremendous amount. You guys, meaning you with Loft 325, prior to merging with Tier 11, that was one of your really towering areas of strength. And so a lot of our examples are going to be that. So if you're a premium beauty and wellness brand, this is the series for you with Lauren Schwartz. So let's get into one of the things that we talked about prior to hitting record. And I think for anyone who is a director of marketing, VP of marketing, CMO or you're working with an agency and you're an owner operator, one of the challenges oftentimes is the creative person themselves and how do you work with creatives just in general. And Lauren Petrulo and I are very much more of the just get it done. But I also understand, like, there is a creative, sensitive side to it. Like I said, dad is an artist, mom was a teacher. So I don't know what the teacher thing, but she used to teach art when she was a teacher, so there is that part of it. So anyway, the point is, is like dealing with creative types is a challenge. So, Lauren Schwartz, what's the key? And I'm just going to call you Lauren from here on in. Lauren Petrullo, you're going to be LP because there's too many Laurens on this show here. But anyway, can you explain how you deal with that type of individual and how you get the best out of them?

[Lauren Schwartz]

Yes. So as we were talking before the show, again, creatives just have a different way of how they work. They're very emotional, they're very attached to their work, they're very attached to the thought process of how their designs come across. And so I come from a design background, so obviously I know how that sort of works. But again, I also own my own owned my own business. I've worked with a lot of CMOs and directors. And so making sure that you have a little bit of a thicker skin is something that is needed. But as someone who works with the creatives, it's really just kind of helping them guide that criticism into a way that's a little bit softer and just explains it a little bit better, as opposed to being as harsh as some people can be. So I think it's really just kind of focusing, directing that sort of like, this is what I want from you. And directing it in a way that's more constructive as opposed to just straight criticism. So there is a way of how to direct that and constructive feedback.

[Ralph Burns]

LP is laughing, laughing, by the way, because she's like, can you give me some tips?

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

I didn't grow up with art parents, okay? I grew up with a dad who was almost a colonel in the army and a mom who worked for dcfs. There was no beating around the bush.

[Ralph Burns]

Sensitivity training.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

No, None. None.

[Lauren Schwartz]

But, I mean, my dad cried a lot.

[Ralph Burns]

So I will say that.

[Lauren Schwartz]

Yeah, that's like, a good point, though, because, like, again, like, creatives are going to have to deal with that. And so, like, you know, I always try to tell any designer that I work with, again, I teach art students. And so just helping them hone in on. Not everything is going to be constructive feedback. Like, you're going to just get straight criticism. So it's kind of how you deal with it is what's going to make you stronger, really, because you're going to have to know how to take criticism in a way that's going to be harsh. But you also have to learn how to take that criticism and not. And not have it be so emotionally based. And it's not personal. It's not a personal attack on you. It's just, this is what we need. We need to get the job done. Like, we need to get it done yesterday. So how. Like, just do it. You know, you have to kind of put your personal beliefs aside and really just focus on what needs to get done. So it's not a personal attack on you. It's just, this is what we need to get done.

[Ralph Burns]

Right? Right. So I guess that's really a good question, because we were talking about that a bit, and I think the common answer with creative is like, I just don't like it. Or it's just it's not on brand, which isn't really helpful feedback unless you want 10 iterations until you finally get something. Cause in most cases, most decision makers, let's say it's that you're the director of marketing, and you're running a marketing department. It's like you might not actually know what you want, you just know what you don't want. So how does a creative deal with that when you don't even get any feedback? Like, well, what is it specifically that you don't like? I just don't like the whole thing. So how do you direct that? And the reason I ask this is because Lock 325 sort of evolved out of the fact that you saw this as an opportunity inside the marketplace. If I'm not mistaken, you obviously were able to do it and get it done in a constructive way. At the end of the day, business is about getting shit done. It's not just about, like, feelings, you know, like their feelings are being hurt. I mean, at the end of the day, you've got to get stuff out of people. You got to get the best performance. So how do you do that? And then how do you instruct clients in order to make the relationship more constructive?

[Lauren Schwartz]

Yeah. So I think, again, like, that's always a tough thing to get out of people because people don't, when they see it and they don't like it, sometimes they just can't point to what exactly they don't like. So it's really just asking those questions, like, okay, what is it about the design? Do you not like? Is it the layout? Is it the colors? Is it the placement? Do you want to change the font? Is it the image? There's probing questions that you can ask as a designer, and if a client comes back and says, well, I just don't like it, it's like, you have to have a reason why. You have to have some sort of expert explanation. And it's just trying to ask those questions to them. The right questions, I guess, of trying to figure out, like, what is it about the design that you don't like? Because there has to be something about it that is making you feel this way. And so I can't do my job if I don't understand what exactly it is about it. It's the concept that I don't like. It's the messaging, whatever it is. Like, there's some area that is just not resonating with you as a client. So it's really just trying to pull out those areas and trying to understand how to direct that to a creative and then get that from the client so that we can share that feedback with them.

[Ralph Burns]

So, LP, you're probably the avatar that we're talking about here.

[Lauren Schwartz]

100%.

[Ralph Burns]

So what questions or advice. Do you want to ask Lauren Schwartz here about how to get the most out of your creative team? Because it's like, if I think about a CEO whose dad was in the military, mom worked for dcf, like, you ain't talking about feelings here. You're just like, just get it right.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

But, yeah, we need to ask for it better. I want to know, what resources can I give the creative so that they ask me better. Like, I don't have the time to hand hold and just be like, this is the piece I don't like. I mean, when you were just saying, Lauren, where it's like, hey, do you want me to start over from scratch? Is it the concept that alone was revolutionary? Because when I say I don't like something, my assumption is, you know, start all over. I don't like it. I don't like anything about it. Destroy it. Erase it from your mind. I need you to almost hear, Oshima, any thoughts that you thought that would make this a good design to present to me? If it's as simple as, hey, just to confirm my assumption, I'm going to start over completely. You're not going to see any familiarity with your previous design. I'd be like, yes, thank you. Or I'd be like, start over mostly, but keep this 10%. Because that I actually did like. And here's why. I can respond and react, but when you're like, what questions do you have to make it easier? It's like, oh, I don't have time.

[Ralph Burns]

So, Lauren Schwartz, how would you deal with an asshole client like lp?

[Lauren Schwartz]

I mean, sadly, I've dealt with Memmis.

[Ralph Burns]

That's why I'm asking.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Yeah, I don't mind. Like, I'm honest about it, which is why, like, we have people that protect the creative team from me because I just needed to perform. And I, like, really believe that while creative is subjective, performance, creative is objective. So I don't care. I love when I'm wrong because I love when the creative can be like, I told you adding that button into your Facebook ad, even though it violates terms of service was worth it. Or, like, adding the logo into the creative. Lauren, I know you hate that, but it performed better. And I'll be like, you're right, I was wrong. I owe you lunch. I love those moments when I'm proven wrong from performance because it's not my place to be subjective when performance is truly objective.

[Lauren Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

So in that regards, I'm like, I'm here for it. I don't mind being made fun of we put people in place to protect them from me as best as we can. But sometimes I just gotta get in because I feel like Trump on X, I'm like, oh, my gosh, Kanye's best tweets in the middle of the night. Sometimes if a creative gets me, I'm like, what happened here?

[Lauren Schwartz]

See, I think so the funny thing, I think that's why I actually started the law of 325 was because I wanted to prove people like you wrong.

[Ralph Burns]

That's right.

[Lauren Schwartz]

That I know what I'm doing. So more so it's just. Yeah, no, it's just for me, that was, like, the biggest thing as I was. I wanted to help bridge that gap. And I think, like. Because, again, like, creative is important, and the way that you do it and the way that you share it and the way that you design it is like, there's a reason for everything. And so if I can prove that wrong to someone and just say, like, you don't agree with this, but let me show you why it works, then I will do it. Let's have performance. Let's put data behind it. And then you can come back to me and say, like, nope, this didn't work. Or I can come back to you and say, see, this is why it worked. This is why you should listen to me.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

So you say this, Lauren, and I think of Ximena. You are the godsend of the best of creatives I've ever worked with. She pushed me back. Oh, my God. Amazing. I love you. If you listen to this, I love you.

[Ralph Burns]

And I'm sorry, this is a really. This is a really good point here. Talk to that. Because I think so much of creative is a bit of pushback because you're being hired as the expert. This happens all the time. Hundreds and hundreds of examples of this. It's like we make a random day. I don't want to do that. Well, wait a second. You didn't hire us to tell me what you want. You hired me because I know what you need, and this is actually going to help you achieve that objective. How do you navigate through that? And is it just a matter of standing your ground as a creative and dealing with the asshole LPs of the world and their demands? Asshole. In a good way. Because you want performance. All right, so how did she do it then? Explain to me and to us.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Ximena, like, gave me a PDF, showing me what it is. And, like, she put, like, this is why I did this. This is why I made that. And she recorded A loom video. The first time, I was like, hey, I. I know how much. Because we designed mobile first and optimize for desktop later, she's like, I know how much you like making long verticals horizontal. So I added this flow element and I think this, where it cuts off here makes it clear enough for the user to know that there's more to the right. And I chose this color because in past, this has performed better. Like, it's a loom describing creative choices she made.

[Ralph Burns]

So I'm no longer in the rationale behind. Got it.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

I'm regarding the rationale of the creative decision she's made with the intention of performance. Otherwise, I. A lot of times I just get the design and I'm like, oh, they think this is good, but without understanding why they thought. I'm like context. So when Lauren was just saying, I'm like, oh, my God, that's why I loved Himena. And my world changed when she started sending me looms explaining decisions she made. Because then I was no longer fighting my opinion. I was fighting the rationale and context.

[Ralph Burns]

Right?

[Lauren Schwartz]

Yeah. And it's funny too. Cause we, you know, I've definitely had clients where I've had to do that. And like you said, Ralph, like, you hire us, you hire creatives because we know, like, we're good at our job. And so it's interesting because the rationale that I've always had is that, okay, well, you've hired me to do my job, let me do my job. However, I have to explain the reason why I'm doing it for you. But yet you don't explain what you want from me. So. So it's like it comes both ways, too. As a creative, we basically have to explain ourselves constantly. Whereas a media buyer or a CMO or a CEO, they don't ever have to explain it to us. Like, they don't really ever have to say why they don't like something. It's always kind of like, well, I just don't like it. And it's like, okay, so that's a fair. That's fair for you to say to me, but yet I have to explain myself to you. We need to come together and work together. And so I've always. That's why I started the Loft 325 was because I wanted to make sure that creatives had a voice. Because, again, like, I have to explain myself, but I also want you to help me understand what you're looking for and understand, like, your thought process, your perspective, in order to help Me make my design better to you. So it's like there's kind of this, like, bridging the gap of communication because creatives don't really get that great communication back from people. But yet we're always asked to be better communicators to the people we work with. So it's like, who helps creatives? Nobody.

[Ralph Burns]

It's a double standard, right?

[Lauren Schwartz]

Yeah, totally is. So it's making sure that we're clear on everything, really.

[Ralph Burns]

But then at the end of the day, and we'll get into this in just a second here is that at the end of the day, like, and I've seen this so many times, like, oh, I don't like it. And we're like, we give the rationalization, like, here's why I put the call to action here. Here's why this B roll is going to be effective. This is why it's a wide shot and then a zoomed in shot because of these psychological reasons and they still don't like it at some point or where do you sort of say the cutoff is? Like, listen, at the end of the day, we're talking about performance creative and we'll get into that definition in just a second here. But it's like, let the data be the data, let the data decide. And where do you sort of bring in that rationale? Like, if you're a creative and then also talking to person that's probably listening to the show, like a director of marketing, when do I sort of just let go of my preconceived notions of what works? I can tell you I've been to this 20 years. Like, I'm still right on a creative, like, less than half of the time was to, like, which one is going to work and which one isn't. The point is, is, like, when do you bring in data or use that as your rationale for saying, I know you say you don't like it as long as it's on brand. We're not like, using, like, the wrong colors and the branding is off. And I get all that. We're just going to take that as that's a given. You're going to get all that stuff, hopefully. But when do you bring in data as your final rationale and solution to say, let's run this thing and shut up?

[Lauren Schwartz]

Yeah. I mean, again, it's like, so, you know, I've been doing this for, gosh, almost 20 years, which is scary. But with everything that, like, I've tested, at some point, it's like, you have to let me know the amount of creative that I've actually tested, the amount of accounts I've been in, the amount of strategy and ads I've run. It's like, I can look at account and say, this is. This will work for you, but you have to let me do my job. It's the same thing with a media buyer is they know what works in an account because they've worked with so many and they've had so many budgets and things that they've done. It's like, at some point you have to give a little bit and say, I know what I'm doing. I understand the data. I understand what works for certain types of brands or niches or whatever. It's like at some point you have to let us just test it, and from there then we can make our decisions of whether or not it's good or bad.

[Ralph Burns]

So one of the challenges I think we've had with some beauty and wellness brands especially is like, oh, that's not in alignment with our branding. That's not in alignment with our overall vision or messaging. And the reason that you're hiring them in the first place is not because you want them to. Well, I mean, we do branding. Obviously, you do a lot of branding for us here at tier 11. But the point is, people hire us to make more money than they're spending on their paid media at the end of the day, which is called media efficiency ratio. Hopefully it's a larger number than 1 or 0 or negative. The point is, is that that's the goal of this whole thing, is to perform and actually get the product in front of the right type of audience, get them to engage and ultimately make a commitment and buy. But I find it with, like, beauty and wellness in particular. Like, there's always this barrier with, oh, it's not pretty enough or it's not good. And it's like getting them to think of it as. It's not a piece that just you want to look pretty or nice. And I'm sort of saying that in, like, sort of a condescending way, but it's like its job is to perform for you. How do you get past that? Because that's a barrier. And I think a lot of folks who are listening to this show probably have that. Like, I want both. I want it to be on brand and, you know, within our vision, but also I want it to be creative and then I want it to perform, I suppose. Like, I can't tell you how many ads we've stopped because the advertiser I'm like, this is getting like a 20x roas. Back when we used to use that as a rationale. It's like, well, I don't like it, it doesn't look good.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Or I'm tired of seeing it, I'm.

[Ralph Burns]

Tired of seeing it.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

That's what I would get a lot. Like we can turn it off now. I'm over it.

[Lauren Schwartz]

Yeah, well, I mean you can't, I mean rationale is, you know, that's objective too I guess. But, but I mean for beauty again I think there's that fine line of brand versus like authenticity. And so with beauty brands there is that level of like, yes, people want that high production. They want the people to want to be that lifestyle, they want to have that look, they want to have that esthetic and vibe. So it's like I understand why beauty brands want to definitely focus on the brand side of how they present things. But then with beauty again it's also how does it look? And this is where the performance side comes in because most people want to see what the product looks like, how it's going to make me look different. They want to see that authentic like that authentic like UGC style content where it's someone actually applying the makeup or using the product or a before and after of the skin care product. So there is that kind of fine line. I definitely think beauty brands need both. They need that high end look and appeal to show what kind of brand they are. But then they also need that really like raw organic content that will perform really well because again that's, that's what most people resonate towards when it comes to performance, especially in the beauty space. So I think you have to have a mix of both. You can't just have one without the other.

[Ralph Burns]

So maybe give us an example around that. I think we've sort of tossed around both terms here. Performance marketing versus sort of brand or I say it's like pretty marketing because it looks nice and it's great and it's very top of funnel and it's awareness and all these other sorts of things which is important not to discount it at all. However, maybe talk about an example of how you were able to sort of navigate through that because at the end of the day like the creative has to perform, it has to do its job. And we always sort of talk about all of advertising is basically is transformation. It's from the before state to the after state. And beauty and wellness is one of those that 100% like that's it. And it's pretty stark. I mean, it's right there. It can be visual in so many ways. But maybe give an example of maybe the challenge of, you know, I want it to look nice, but then I also want it to be something that makes me money in the end. And how you navigated through that, because that's a difficult route no matter what.

[Lauren Schwartz]

Yeah. So I've worked with a lot of beauty brands. One in particular, when we first got the client, it was a makeup brand and everything that they had within their ad account was all highly stylized product shots, flat lays of their eyeshadows and lip glosses and things like that. As I was kind of going through their content, there was one video that stood out of a woman, just a close up shot of her putting a lip gloss on her lips. But the way that it was shot was so natural looking and it just was again, very organic, but you could see the difference of the shine. And basically that was the gloss effect of what someone was trying to go for. Had a lot of conversations with the team of like, I want to test this because I think this will work because again, it shows that really before and after state and it just shows the impact of what this looks like when it's actually applied. And after a lot of kind of back and forth, we put both. We obviously had the really highly styles, highly stylized content in the account. We put that lip gloss ad in the account and it was their top performer for months. All it was was just a close up shot of someone putting on the lip gloss with a headline that said something like, I don't know, your shiniest lip or something. I don't even remember what the headline was, but it was so simple. But it was a top performer for over a year. So I think it's just things like that where yes, highly stylized content does work, but that natural application and that natural look like people want to understand that it's not a polished ad. It looks like an organic piece of content where someone shot the video and they just applied the lip gloss and they could see how well it works, where people resonate with that so much more than this high end flat lay of all the pieces of, you know, products that you have, or a highly glamorized photo shoot of this woman with all this makeup and lip gloss. Because again, how many people are going to go out and look like that every single day? You know, it's like I want the basic of this is what it's going to look like in my everyday life and things like that are Just really how to focus on beauty brands.

[Ralph Burns]

Right. So in this case, if I'm hearing it correctly, it was stylized shots of the product, like, of the lip gloss, of the lip gloss itself, like the pack, like the actual bottle, package, packaging, whatever it is. Okay. And then this one. So you did like a creative audit, in essence, and found this one thing that was what, in their organics. Is that where you found it?

[Lauren Schwartz]

Yeah, it was in the organic.

[Ralph Burns]

And you're like, all right. That shows, going back to the basic thing we said this 100 times on the show is like transformation. You're like. That shows the transformation of the product being like the product into the actual benefit, which is two different things. I guess I'm off screen here. I guess I have to go over here. The point is, is that's the thing that you see that most brands, I would say whenever we do an audit, it's like, oh, wow, look at all those product shots. Isn't that great? People don't buy products, they buy what the product can do for them. And it's like that alone is just, it's so simple. But it's the thing that sells almost consistently and you have an eye for that. But most brands don't do it unless they actually, you know, they probably won't be calling us for help if they do know how to do it. It's like, how do you transition past? I guess that it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, I want it highly stylized. I want the beautiful. Like we paid a hundred thousand dollars for that photo shoot. I want to use all that stuff. And you're like, stuff ain't gonna convert for you.

[Lauren Schwartz]

I mean, that's what's hard. Because again, you do pay a lot of money for these things. And again, I do think there's a time and place for it and it is needed. I'm never saying that it's not because again, like the brand aesthetic that you're buying is what that hundred thousand dollars photo video shoot is what you need. Because people again, want to know the brand. They want to know the background, they want to know the lifestyle that I'm trying to get to. Like, I'm trying to emulate that lifestyle. But at the end of the day, when it comes to performance based creative, the thing that people want is how does it look? How can I use it in my daily life? How is it going to look on me? How do I apply it? Things like that. What is the natural raw content that any Joe Schmo on the street can look at and just apply it to their everyday life and then they know it's going to work for them. Like that's what people want to see. I think that's why influencer UGC content is so popular now again, because it's just so easy to people just resonate with that more. People don't want to see highly stylized product shots or highly stylized photo shoots anymore. They want to know what's the simplest way that I can use this product in my everyday life.

[Ralph Burns]

Right, right.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

So like how overproduction destroys performance in many cases because it's again, it goes to like the different generations that you're advertising to.

[Lauren Schwartz]

But exactly.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Gen Z demands authenticity because they grew up knowing sponsored content. And so that's why there's just such a like integrated ads and things of that nature where someone is putting their name and reputation on the line. That level of authenticity is more important than overproduction because when it's overproduced, you know it's an ad.

[Lauren Schwartz]

Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

[Ralph Burns]

Right. I find with beauty brands, the. One of the things going back to my original comment is that and meta, I actually love this term. I got this from. I think it was a meta conference. It's like loaf, go lo fi, don't go hi fi. Hi fi is exactly what you're talking about. Highly stylized high end photo shoots that you spend lots of money on. All those are glamorous models. That's all good for maybe the l'oreals of the world and the super high end beauty brands, but the stuff that actually works is lo fi to a certain degree. Still on brand showing the transformation, answering all those questions that you, you said it's like, how do I use it? What is it? What does it look like, how do I use it, what am I going to look like when I do use it kind of thing. How do you balance that with going too lo fi? Because we've gone like a little like very high end brands and then we're like, no, you need to go down here. And they're like, no, that's not high fidelity enough. It's not like stylized enough. I get what you're saying, but it's inconsistent with the perception of our brand. How do you balance that?

[Lauren Schwartz]

Yeah, I mean, again, I think it's the way that it can be shot too. So for instance, we have a lash brand that we work with and they are very particular about how things are shot and we do use more of that kind of lo fi native looking feel. But there's a way to do it where it still can look nicer and again maybe a little bit more high end in the lighting that you use, the close up shots that you use, where it still can look native to the feedback, but it doesn't, it's not so highly produced that it looks so much like again, like a highly produced ad. So I still think you can have that sort of like you can bridge that gap of this is the brand esthetic that we're going for. Like we still are a higher price point Lash company And I still want my UGC to look like it's a little bit produced, but it still gives that authenticity of a regular person putting on the lashes, applying it and just using it in their everyday life. So I still think that there's a balance in between. It's just a matter of how you direct those creatives and those people to shoot that content to kind of bridge that gap.

[Ralph Burns]

Yeah, makes sense going back to how you do that. In most cases, beauty brands have multiple products. It's not like one thing in particular. Like I'm sort of thinking of generalized beauty and wellness brands where they sell a basket of different products that do all kinds of different things. One of the things that we talk about here is always sort of like naov, which is like new customer average order value. And how do you actually sell a basket of products as opposed to one product? What's your experience with that? In a case study that I'll reference and you can link back to this in the show notes, that's one of the things that they do really, really well. They sell a look, they sell the after state. Okay, it's makeup for over 40 or the fresh wake up in the morning, don't look the no makeup, makeup look. And it's a basket of products. But the reason why that works so well is you're buying actually not one thing, but you're buying the look itself. I think it's just one of those really cool areas. Like in a lot of companies don't do that a whole lot. And I see that's one of the reasons why they've done so well over the course of the years that we've worked with them. Because obviously higher average order value, you're selling transformation. It's not just one thing. It's not like eyeliner or it's not lipstick, but it's a whole thing. Is there opportunities within beauty brands to even adopt that type of concept in your mind? Sort of thinking from the how much can you pay to acquire a customer? If you're going from $50 and your average order value to 200. Because you're buying a basket products, all of a sudden that ad becomes that much more effective. How deep do you go into the business side of things when you're sort of advising people on creative and the end goal, which is to grow the business and that's why they hire you in the first place.

[Lauren Schwartz]

Yeah, definitely. I mean, we had a client, it was in the hair care space and again, they were mostly focused on shampoo and conditioner, but yet they have all these other products, this range of products with dry shampoo or hair oils and hair tools. And it's like, okay, you're selling shampoo, that's kind of where you get the entry. People that come in where they don't really know about you, but they want to test something, it's a lower price point. So you get them in with that sort of like your height or your bestseller. And then from there, yes, definitely. Like now this is your whole hair care routine. In order to make your hair not only look healthier, shine, but you can use the straightener or blow dryer, which is also going to give you less frizz, less split ends, things like that. And then from there it's like, I've already got you with our initial product. Now let's get you to this like amazing hair care routine that's going to give you the ultimate results that you're looking for. So yeah, I mean, we've definitely come in with this creative entry point, but from there it's okay, you have this product. Now let's make it more like, let's get you a higher AOV with all of your products. Let's bundle, let's do you know this, these routines and things like that, like how can you get more out of people once they become a customer? So, yeah, definitely. We always make sure that we're trying to bundle as much as we can because it really, at the end of the day, you not only want the people to buy from you solely, but that should be your go to product.

[Ralph Burns]

Right, right. Especially if you have complementary products in your product line. It's like thinking about that and how you can merge that with your front end creative. And even so, it's like if you're spending the money on an ad and on creative, yes, you should sell individual products, but it's like, how do you affect the economics of your business in a positive way? Even more so by bundling and combining. For years we had a beard care client, we did consulting, sort of off and on with their internal team, consulted with them, and they're like, yeah, we're selling beard brushes. Like, well, that's great, but what else do you sell? Well, we sell trimmers. We sell beard oil. We sell guys who are going gray in their beard. Not like anybody on this show is actually having that happen right now. All these other sorts of things, like beer. Wow. Like, I didn't even know there's such a thing as beard wax. The point is, is, like, we wanted to own the beard as opposed to thinking about, like, selling brush.

[Lauren Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Ralph Burns]

And then we created content around that, and they're like, oh, my God, this is absolutely amazing. Even if they don't buy all five products, it's like they buy, like, one or two. Send them to a landing page, where they can buy all five of them. A little bit different in the makeup space, because the beauty and wellness space, because it's usually, like, not that I've ever worn eyeliner or rouge or do people.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Wait a second.

[Ralph Burns]

Rouge?

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

We have pictures of you wearing rouge in Boston.

[Ralph Burns]

No, that was. That was lipstick.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Yeah. But it also acts as a liquid blush.

[Ralph Burns]

I could have put it on my cheeks, give a little hint. The point is, is that in a lot of those cases in the beauty space, it's like, they have to pick a specific shade, so it's a little bit harder to bundle it all together. Guys are easy. Like, in the beard space, it's like, beard wax oil.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

That's a dude answer.

[Ralph Burns]

I know.

[Lauren Schwartz]

I was gonna say, I'm like, I actually don't agree, but you don't agree with that.

[Ralph Burns]

Prove me wrong, then. All right. We're just trying to increase average order value here, ladies. Trying to make you more money.

[Lauren Schwartz]

But again, it's like, wait, let's go back to the makeup space. I don't necessarily always wear. We'll go to eyeliner. I don't always necessarily wear black eyeliner, because sometimes blue eyeliner makes my eyes pop more.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Like, green eyeliner is trending on Pinterest right now, and it's increased, like, 800% of searches, so it's coming.

[Ralph Burns]

Yeah, it's because of this show.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Because I wear a lot of green eyeliner. Well, if you look at past, it's, like, all I wore for, like, two years. But.

[Ralph Burns]

But okay.

[Lauren Schwartz]

But, yeah, I mean, it's just. Again, it's like, you may not wear that color, but again, like, I have a friend who. She gets nervous to wear that kind of stuff, but it's like, they see it, and they see so many people Wearing it. And they're like, okay, well, maybe I want to be a little spontaneous and try something out. So it's like, I love their eyeliner. I think they have great products. It glides on smooth. It doesn't smear. So I'm going to try this other color to, like, see how you know it looks. Again, like you're increasing your average order value by not buying one, but two.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

And the creative is not telling you to buy a product. They're telling you to feel. They're evoking an emotion. And that emotion is confidence or being able to be bold enough. And that's what it is, is giving you the bigger your product list is. How bold do you want to go? Are you dipping your toe in, or are you submerging yourself all in? And for the full face, like, are you going to be doing bronzer? Are you going to be doing skincare treatments to it? There's a lot of how much are you buying into the feeling that you want to purchase? And there's a direct monetary amount based off of the product amount that you put in your cart. So that average order value naturally increases when you're trying to sell a feeling versus sell an individual product, which is when you're owning the beard, right? You're not selling that like you're owning the beard. You're actually selling that you're a beard man, that you are someone who has a beard. Not because I'm too lazy to shave, but I have a beard because it says something about who I am. I'm a man's man. Or like, this is who I want to attract. That's what you're selling when you're doing the full beard. Because just a comb is like, it's not straggly.

[Lauren Schwartz]

Yes.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

I work from home and I'm on camera. That's what a comb is telling you. But it's like, I manufacture a beard like this says about how much time I put in the gym. That's like, when people go work out, like, it's not easy to gain muscle and maintain that. So it's the full set. So how dare you think that, Ralph? What a dude dancer.

[Ralph Burns]

Yeah. Well, I mean, what I'm trying to get to is for beauty brands, think a little bit beyond product focus. Think about the transformation that you're trying to produce.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Any brand, though. I mean, yes, especially to beauty, because it's transformation. But you never sell the product you sell the problem you solve. You never sell the product you produce, but the problem you solve, like, ever.

[Lauren Schwartz]

Agreed.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Beauty Just tends to lean in. Like here, look, it's blue metallic eyeshadow. You have to infer what blue metallic eyeshadow means to you. Whereas if someone is using flat lays or it's going to only tell so much of a story. But if you're using user generated content and someone's using that blue metallic eyeliner to do a fish netted mermaid look, it says that you're comfortable and in pushing your boundaries of your appearance. If you're using that blue eyeshadow to do as like stage makeup to help you look like a distressed domestic violent victim, it's you're repurposing makeup and writing it off for your business that you then also get to use when you go to your gala and take that award home for your performance as a domestically abused wife with blue eyeshadow.

[Ralph Burns]

Right.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Whatever that type of stuff is. Makeup just, it's beauty brands, especially when they have such large SKU catalogs, it's easy to see them rely on letting the product sell itself because it's, it's a picture and people know so many, it's commoditized. So you're like, it's another blue eyeshadow. And they're like, if you don't tell the story of like, hey, this is long lasting, this is waterproof, this pigment works well even on darker skins. You're missing the story, which goes back to like when the creative explains the rationale behind it. You as a beauty owner or any brand has to explain the rationale behind the decisions you made in your product. Otherwise you're going to lose the differentiator that distinguishes that purchase.

[Ralph Burns]

Right. I'm only reporting back to you all. What this brand told us is that we can't sell all five on one page unless they actually figure out the shade based upon their skin tone, their eye color, their hair color. I'm like, well just sell one look and that's it. And just give a limiting belief. Yeah, like, just say like, you know, all right, so beauty and wellness brands that are listening here, don't get caught in that trap. I think that's too much refinement because what we're thinking is how do you use creative on the front end to attract a client or a customer that you've never had before for a look maybe that they've never had before, whatever that is. You know, it's a Friday night, going out, like going to a rave look versus I'm going to work and I'm 20 minutes late and I need to like just look Good for that particular like those are scenarios, those are end results.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

It's like those are pre made, pre manufactured bundles. You can have the, like I'm in a hurry, I'm on the train and I can't do a full face and I have people squeezing next to me. It's like you have the person like the wellness Wendy. You have your avatars and you set them up. And even better if you can tie it to a review and you say like, hey, we have bundles that are made for you. When you're a New Yorker on the train, you don't have a lot of elbow space, but you still need to have a professional look so you can close that meeting today. There are these bundles and then you just customize that bundle that matches your vibe. Or you can say most frequently purchased for women with warm skin tones and hazel eyes. Yeah, people don't want to have to make decisions. I mean I don't exactly fatigue. So take that away from them and if you're trying to sell five, give them a reason why it's relevant. But then the other thing you can do is for the person that still has more questions because we're consumers that need to know more and more about our products. Like I can't believe how much people research toothpaste ingredients now. Like I can't believe how much people didn't research it before. But also now it like goes so much so into like the origin of specific products. It's amazing how much people care about that stuff. Also I don't have but you make yourself available for those that need to find that information and then maybe you have like a white glove concierge where like hey, you can get a, it's a hundred dollar purchase for a full one hour consultation with a beauty consultant. At the end of the consultation that $100 becomes a gift card.

[Ralph Burns]

Ah yeah, that could be like the post purchase upsell potentially.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

And with AI you can have that personalization done easily without adding a burden of operations. You don't have to hire a full fleet of people. I'd recommend that you have a strategist behind it. But even how Shopify CEO has like literally said they're not hiring any new staff unless you can prove that AI can't do it for you. There's a huge opportunity for you to connect the user to the brand and creative can tell that story in a way better than any other part of your business.

[Ralph Burns]

So limit choice bundle products. Sell a specific look, use creative in order to do that, enhance your average order value. You can pay more to acquire a customer and you're going to grow your business bottom line. That's it. But it starts with the creative. Yeah, that's the cool part to this. And that's why I think the beauty and wellness niche is so fascinating to me. I mean, I've only applied lipstick once. Although I have painted my nails numerous times. Numerous nieces have painted my nails in the past. It's okay, I'm cool with that. But the point is, is like it all does start with the creative. So at the end of the day, don't go too high end. If you do want performance, you have to hold on.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

I would say it depends.

[Ralph Burns]

You don't like high productivity, but remember there's always that lo fi element of it and show the transformation and the usage and what they're going to get out of it as opposed to just the product itself. Because product itself is boring creative and doesn't sell unless you're way at the bottom of the funnel. And all they're just doing is like you're showing them a dynamic product ad for something that they've already added to their cart. The point is, is like you still need to sell that transformation all the way along.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

I would argue that even if you're at the bottom of the funnel and you're selling that cart, depending if they're a new customer or a return customer is massively different. Because if they've added to the cart and they're still in the consideration phase, you're in that competitive race to the bottom because now they're price shopping against you. And if you cannot further articulate the confidence in that purchase decision, you'll either have buyer's remorse, higher increase of refunds, or you paid a lot of money for a customer who's never coming back.

[Ralph Burns]

I'm not saying only, I'm just saying like that can be added. I agree with what you're saying. Apparently we have a lot of discussion on this. So we obviously have a lot to discuss here and that's the reason why we're going to do this as a four part series at the very least. Have Lauren Schwartz come back with LP and talk about this more. Like we've really focused in on the beauty and wellness space here, but we're going to talk more about creative and what's the difference between brand and performance at the end of the day and how you can use creative as that biggest gear inside the conversion engine to grow your business and move everything forward here. So it's been great having you on your first time on Perpetual Traffic. Congratulations, you survived. I did it. Our fictitious a hole customer here which LP appreciate you playing that role but.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

No, I know it well, I'll own it. I'm not gonna shy away from like the demands I put on your creatives. Like I'll own it. I have demands upon me for performance. So I just, I have a high bar set because the high bar is set on me.

[Ralph Burns]

I wouldn't want it any other way. Well, obviously you can get more Lauren Schwartz at [e-mail] of course you still do have some Loft 325 stuff going on the organics there and people can follow you on LinkedIn if they do want to follow you. You put out a lot of content there under your own brand, which is tremendous. So we will continue on with this series here. We'll leave all the links in the show notes over. Perpetual Traffic.com make sure that you do subscribe to our YouTube channel. Perpetual Traffic.com YouTube. Lauren Schwartz, thank you so much for coming on this week.

[Lauren Schwartz]

Yeah, thank you. This was great.

[Ralph Burns]

And on behalf of my amazing co host Lauren E. Petrulo, MBA woman working on her laptop.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

So I was like, it's more like we're two parts of a Charlie's Angels. It's like Ralph's Angels and like Ralph Lauren is like our like we need to start showing up in Polo.

[Ralph Burns]

Lauren. Lauren. Yeah. Ralph Lauren start her own brand. I guess maybe that's it. All right, well, until next show everyone. Thanks for joining today. See ya.

[Lauren Schwartz]

You've been listening to Perpetual Traffic.