John Moran (6:37)

We're good at marketing. I'm not good at this.

Ralph Burns (6:40)

That's right. Staying on top. That's not my thing. I'm not an integrator.

John Moran (6:45)

No, we're a doer.

Ralph Burns (6:46)

Yeah, yeah, you're like visionary. Cooking stuff up in the lab. And I'm doing my thing, whatever that.

John Moran (6:53)

Is right over here. My meth lab, my rv. That's right. Coming out my underwear going, I found something.

Ralph Burns (6:58)

I found something. Oh, my God, here it is. Y which is pretty exciting because this is where it all comes out. If you're a new listener or watcher of this show. Because I know people, some people just listen to it and they don't watch it. You should be watching it because we do a lot of screen shares here, but we are going to be renaming this.

John Moran (7:16)

Ooh.

Ralph Burns (7:16)

Are you aware, I don't think we're allowed to say exactly what the name is, but it has something to do with the Ads Lab.

John Moran (7:24)

Yeah, I remember. We're Going back and forth from it, I didn't know if it was. I like the one that you. The most recent one that you sent me, I think that was. Had a great ring to it. Yeah. Which is why I'm more of the data guy. I was like Chat GPT was able to produce this for me. What do you think?

Ralph Burns (7:37)

Yeah, no, Chat GPT is good. That one, actually, that was one that we had for a while. It was called. We used to call it the Ads Lab, but this is the Ad Lab. And then cooking up stuff in the. What did you say? The experimentation kitchen. Is that what you said?

John Moran (7:52)

Yeah, that's what ChatGPT said.

Ralph Burns (7:54)

Yeah, that's what ChatGPT Said. It's good. It's good, John, coming out of there, like coming out of the lab. But I always start to think like, you should have like the doc hair, like from like Back to the Future, but you have no hair. Maybe just put on like something blows up in your hair. Come on.

John Moran (8:09)

Like this. Put a Delorean in the background, big.

Ralph Burns (8:14)

Google sign on it. So, yeah, so we're going to be renaming this thing. We were calling it 211 line, but it's not really that good of a name with John, it doesn't have a really good ring to it. But what we're doing is we're bringing out new things that you've probably never heard of and you spend your own money in a lot of cases, like millions of dollars for one of the more recent breakthroughs that you've had inside John's lab. And then we present it here. So this is the cutting edge of the cutting edge. I don't think anybody else is really doing any of this stuff. So now it's like we talk about like feeder strategy and dog piles strategy. Like this thing that we did so long ago, what in fact still, like, that's cutting edge too. So. So anyway, so for those of you who are new to the show, that is the name of the show. It's going to be coming out. We're going to change all our branding and everything probably next week. And this week though, you've got a couple of things that you've cooked up, one of which I'm familiar with some offline things happening and then maybe some Meta trickery that we might want to talk about a little bit.

John Moran (9:20)

What Meta said should happen. I have some data on proving the model out about the DE duping by ad set and the omnichannel traffic flows and how Meta has now consolidated what they call opportunities to Specific campaigns. So we'll go through the proof that we can see inside a data suite, which is where we. It's our diagnostics tool in the lab, essentially. This is the tier 11 data suite. And that is, is what we're going to be showing some, some examples as how Meta is now utilizing their campaign targeting and creative targeting and how you now have to think about your new structure and setup instead of Meta.

Ralph Burns (9:53)

Yeah, you're gonna, you're gonna define de duping for those of us, not me specifically, but for those who are listening or watching that don't know what that is because that's a techy term that, yeah, we bandy about here, but we also want to make sure that you understand exactly what we're talking about. So anyway, decided to get into that. So where do you want to start? Screen share or just explanation? All right, Screen sharing is the way we roll here.

John Moran (10:17)

I love it. Let's pierce the veil. Let's see what's going on here. All right, so I can't show the name of this company. It is a fairly large company. And so what we want to do is simply show the results. This is yesterday's performance. They did spend $50,000 yesterday. So it's about a campaign that spends about 50k a day and having trouble with growing their new customers. Like pretty much every customer, every running digital marketing, there's scale. That's it. That's all you want, scale. So when that is always the primary target, there's always obviously something that is limitations. And those limitations are now being overcome and identified by the kind of tier 11 data suite CAPI import feature both for Meta and for Google. And what we noticed is that as an example of yesterday being actually the first day of imports. So day one, which is really nice because now we kind of get to see a snapshot as of why. For the, for all transparency. And I can prove this, I just have to change the screen here and go off camera here for a moment. But they spend about 1.3 to $1.5 million per month and.

Ralph Burns (11:25)

Big spenders.

John Moran (11:26)

Exactly, big spenders, but also very hard to grow new customers because they have a great brand recognition and they've been in the industry for 25 years. We said we have to get, we have to get a snapshot as to what's going on. And so we wanted to run our own imports through the API calls of Google Ads and then get a feel from a diagnostic as to what is working and what is not. And on day one, what we can see so Far is if we compare their previous primary conversion action showed 925 sales yesterday. However, after we import our new and returning customer, the $50,000 that was spent was spent on about 600 returning customers and only 400 new customers.

Ralph Burns (12:13)

Interesting.

John Moran (12:15)

So not only were they missing data because anybody that's good at math should be able to see this pretty quickly, but 592/692 is 984 and they were counting only 925. So not only were we missing, we were also we were having more returning customers than new from basically a 60, 40 split. 5, 9 and 3 9. We'll just call it 600, 400. It's 6040 returning customers. Now, spending millions of dollars a month on 60% of your own returning customers is what is going to be the death of any company. And it just makes a lot of sense, especially when you peer over to the other side and find out that the value, the cost per conversion is $104 and the value per conversion is $104. So when you're basically spending the same CPA to get the same aov, you are now gross break even, but you are net negative losing money faster than you're making money and you're spending millions of dollars per month on it. Yeah, that is detrimental. Now this company is in. Doesn't make sense. Exactly. And this company's in the healthcare space. This company cannot use audiences. Not for targeting, not for exclusion, not for. Google has stopped that. They essentially said, we're sorry you violate HIPAA by using any one of your audiences ever. So it's a company that we previously worked with for a little while. And knowing that targeting exclusions are fairly gone, this is actually also crazy enough, running only standard shopping, there is no performance max. Okay, so we're seeing that our standard shopping is bringing in still 60, 40, 60% existing customers because they have thousands of SKUs. And when people want to buy something yet again, they're not brand loyal to that company. They're simply product and solution aware and are looking for the solution regardless of who has the solution. Because they are reselling products, they are a distributor of products or sorry, a retailer of products.

Ralph Burns (14:06)

So does that speak to the fact that they're not creating brand loyalty on the first sale so that like I know, take away all the stuff that you're doing, but like that I see as a fundamental issue because they're in a highly competitive space, people are just like, I don't care where I get this thing. And it doesn't matter if it's from them or not from them. I think that's part that's a business problem, but that's still like you're diagnosing that problem through paid media. To a certain extent, absolutely. They're either, this is meta. So I was thinking more like on the Google side, they're either brand naming your brand or they're probably just looking for the thing that they want, the particular medicine that they're like their pet in this particular case. Yeah.

John Moran (14:50)

And that's the reason why Amazon exists. Like no one goes to Amazon and be like, wow, I heard about this great thing on TikTok from Amazon. No, it's, they're going there to buy the product and when you don't necessarily have the brand loyalty, you become a hopeful retention play. We know that six out of 10 people are going to buy something again in the industry, but it could be from Amazon, it could be one of their competitors, it could be from them. So now it's just a pure pricing play. So that pricing play now is essentially try to not lose as many new customers as you did last week. Like that's the goal, which is a really shitty goal.

Ralph Burns (15:24)

And this is a super price sensitive market.

John Moran (15:26)

Absolutely.

Ralph Burns (15:27)

Because they're competing, as I recall, I've been a customer for years and years, like their biggest competitors, outspending them. But also is on the same products a little bit less expensive in most cases.

John Moran (15:39)

Sometimes, yeah. It's almost like the reason why we have so many new returning customers that actually just revolving door is like that company has better price, I'll buy from them. Well, that company's got better prices and I'll buy from them. Oh, now they have a better price and so they basically just bounce off of pure pricing. So that's what's interesting is there's no retention play, there's no nothing there to keep the user, to keep the customer. And that is, it's just becoming like, you know, I'll spend a million and I'll make a million and then I'll lose a million and we'll do that every day. It's basically like that, that kind of model. Yeah. And this also even shows that just because you're running standard shopping does not mean it's new customers at all. Actually, standard shopping has been moving more into returning customers because the troas targets can be more easily met.

Ralph Burns (16:16)

Everybody thinks that Google shopping is used so much for like reordering stuff that you've already bought. People don't really think about it that way of Course everybody's going to brand name or Google brand name. My name doesn't necessarily happen that way. And you've seen that plenty of times. Especially now using this, it's like you can push it right back to the actual either keyword or ad campaign specifically and it proves itself out.

John Moran (16:42)

Yeah. And optimized towards that. That's what we're working on now is we needed to get a little bit of a sense as to what's going on and we found out, oh like you're losing thousands of dollars a day in that profitability. So yeah, that's just one example of being able to just simply. We're not even optimizing towards it really yet. Like this is just day one of visuals. So just being able to use the Tier 11 data suite to understand what your campaigns are even delivering to you, much less optimized towards it later on. But this is a really good understanding of saying like, oh, that's what's actually true. Not CPA, not ROAS, because they have actually great ROAS. I've got 3 and 4x ROAS shows are making 4 and $5 million per month. But if 60% of those are people that are coming back because by chance. Oh, this is in dire straits. So yeah, it's very interesting.

Ralph Burns (17:28)

And they're not on Data Suite, I have to assume. So the new and returning that you're all. You're only using meta right now as your proxy to say, hey, here' not only are you missing a fair amount of purchases over here, like you're just using the standardized purchase event. However, if we're separating this out now, we're actually seeing at a more granular level that's not being backed up by Data Suite at this point.

John Moran (17:49)

Maybe that will change at some point. Not yet. Exactly. Yeah, but we need to get into this is more of a like, can we work together diagnostic kind of thing. Because what they measure by and what we measure by are like two ships passing in the night. So for us to be able to have control over their metric, which is more like kind of broas, that part is like, did you now we can see that 60% of what happens in that campaign has nothing to do with an ad spend.

Ralph Burns (18:12)

Yeah.

John Moran (18:13)

Really. So that's what's interesting. So now we know why some things are like pushing rope. It's. There's the people that are returning because these people particularly have a prescription. They're not going to buy anything else. They can't. It's illegal. So really cool to see.

Ralph Burns (18:26)

Yeah, yeah, that Just goes back to the idea of like before you had this. And we could, I wouldn't even say we could do this inside data suite because the purchases, it was like new or returning customer on like all your products. And you've used examples where there's like thousands of SKUs or maybe like six different SKUs like in the pet space as well. That's actually in the pet space also. Not that we do just exclusively pet examples here, but they just so happen to be that way.

John Moran (18:54)

Yeah, just inbound and people just.

Ralph Burns (18:56)

Yeah, there's a lot of pet crazy people out there. I find it's like unbelievable how much stuff people will buy for their dogs and everything.

John Moran (19:02)

John Moran's dog, please close yours.

Ralph Burns (19:06)

We just give them free content. That's what we get for John Moran's dog. But anyway, this really does speak to that point. We talked about this yesterday in a call, an internal call. It's like every one of your products doesn't necessarily have the same ncac.

John Moran (19:19)

Right.

Ralph Burns (19:19)

Some have better, some have worse. We have had customers where like their GROSS Profitability is 90% on one of their products, but on their other product it's 40% because their cost is just higher for whatever it is. But if you have a global ncac, you just have to take the average, but you don't really know are you getting the 90 gross or are you getting the 40 gross? Like nobody really knows. So this is really cool of being able to laser focus in on new customers for a specific product and knowing exactly what that NCAC is so that your metrics make sense. And it's metrics that matter and growth that scales.

John Moran (19:57)

Yeah, right. It's almost like we've entered the next phase of digital marketing.

Ralph Burns (20:02)

Something like that. Yes.

John Moran (20:06)

So moving on to my second test for the week that we wanted to kind of share. So I've been making some claims that Meta has told me specifically and I don't, I won't say us because this is something that I had a personal conversation with Meta in when I was in. When I was in Iceland. And what was interesting, this mysterious conversation.

Ralph Burns (20:26)

Could you just explain that again? Like people like, oh, what is John like? Said this mystery person.

John Moran (20:31)

They flew me to Iceland.

Ralph Burns (20:33)

Yes.

John Moran (20:34)

I was attending a speaking engagement and it happened to be in Iceland. It was actually put on by Amazon and a gentleman named Kevin King. So they were trying to get Amazon companies that don't really have a website, they're just pure sellers on Amazon. They were trying to bring in like kind of industry experts to teach other Platform techniques. So I was brought in for the Google and someone else was actually brought in for Meta, a creative agency actually out of uk and we had a opportunity to speak with Meta and Google who were also attending the event because it was part of what they call like the billionaires club, which is people who have made more than a billion dollars on Amazon. So you have. The one person that spoke before me on YouTube is Mr. Beast's producer. Oh yeah. So it was really cool in. In with people that are way more successful than I am, but I'm just happy to be there. I started to ask a whole bunch of questions to some people that were on the Meta team and of your.

Ralph Burns (21:28)

Talk, by the way, what's that? Love to get a video of your.

John Moran (21:31)

Yeah, I will have that soon actually. Just talk to Kevin this morning. It'll be live and I'll have that. I'll have that. It's actually how to drive Google Ads traffic to Amazon to make it and make the ad look like Amazon. It's actually what we covered here.

Ralph Burns (21:41)

Awesome. But did you have to wear your oversized suit?

John Moran (21:44)

No, I got a new suit.

Ralph Burns (21:47)

You're talking head suit.

John Moran (21:49)

I know. Otherwise I'm just floating in there with like 65 pounds lighter. I turn and it's just my head.

Ralph Burns (21:57)

The last time I saw John speak on stage, the oversized suit is all I remember. Anyway, keep going.

John Moran (22:04)

So the one thing that they mentioned and one thing that I've been talking about is the. What we call or what they call the de duping of opportunities, what that means to define de duping of opportunities. If you have built your meta campaigns so that they are segmented out by level of awareness. So top of funnel, middle funnel, bottom of the funnel, or you've segmented them out where it's saying, okay, if they do this, then this moves over to this campaign, but if they do that, it moves over to this ad set or this targeting that essentially was shattered by Meta. Meta wants one campaign, one asset, all creative.

Ralph Burns (22:39)

It's exactly what we used to do like page view, event view, content, add to cart, initiate checkout. We would target each one of those with different ads. Now all that's out the window pretty much.

John Moran (22:51)

Exactly. And so it's all gone. So what we are assuming is okay, let's say that's true. Let's say that as soon as a click happens inside of an ad set, that asset is the only ad set that can show to that user when they're either clicked or whether impressed. And it will not be able to jump to another asset or campaign unless that ad or ad set is turned off. So we started wild.

Ralph Burns (23:14)

I know that just unto itself, like that little. You were explaining this to our internal team yesterday, like really? Like how do we know that's true? Like you've seen it, you've proved it out. But when you heard that, weren't you, my God, insane.

John Moran (23:29)

It actually is. And I'll share some data that is up that it's back end data from another agency that I'm a part of, very tiny agency. It's a VC group. We're not even. We have like a 15 accounts total in the world kind of thing. Like we, it's not a big company but we buy companies and make them bigger. What ended up happening was we had a campaign that basically just exploded in a bad way and like it just, it fell off the face of the earth. This is the internal conversation that actually happened on April 18th where long story short, last week, January 25th, confirmed by Angelo, our contacts and meta major update to ASC campaigns. This is what we obviously saw happen. Our account went from in platform ROAS at 3.5 to 0.4 on average no matter what. We tried no recovery in this campaign. So what we saw, because we do a lot of extremely technical media buying. Like you fart on Tuesday, you see that ad on Thursday, like it was, it was insane with the amount of technical structure that we had broken out in all these campaigns and overnight 3.5 ROAS in platform to a 0.5 like flip a switch. Just like, like thought it was a tracking issue, thought the pixel was gone. Nope, everything was working perfectly fine. But what we found out is that the way that we move traffic through our prospecting remarketing and acquisition funnels which we actually label PRPT and like ACQ and everything, we have them all broken out by label. That thing just went and just blew up. So I already have a bunch of proof that the technical media buying portions of our campaigns are just dying and it's crazy. So one of the things that I thought was okay, if what Meta has said is true, I should be able to back test that. I should be able to identify that. So hopping into our handy dandy, it's kind of a handy dandy notebook on Blue's Clues, the handy dandy tier 11 data suite. We're able to see the ad or the ad group and the campaign that users are being pushed through. And what was interesting is before we used to have like a bunch of different campaigns that could get first click and then you have other campaigns got second click. And then you go to remarketing clicks. Now it's. You can see that it is locked in after an ad was paused. That first one was an old one from March. We paused it. And now every single. Every single click is coming in and are like completely what was essentially now top of funnel campaign. And it is an ad click on the Catherine cat ad. That's the name of the cat in the ad. Because this is again, a pet brand. Go figure. But that's Catherine the cat. So now I gotta click on Catherine, Catherine, Catherine, Catherine, Catherine. And then even after they buy it's a click on Catherine. Like, they do not. They're not released from this ad set or ad.

Ralph Burns (26:04)

Yeah.

John Moran (26:05)

And then we said, okay, let's take a look at this one.

Ralph Burns (26:07)

It's like their user ID is permanently attached to that ad set specifically. Okay, makes sense.

John Moran (26:14)

And so we started to look at longer time periods and we started to see when things started to bounce around. And we're noticing. Okay, once we pause this on March 22, then the one that we launched on March 29, the new one in creative testing got a click. Creative testing got to click again. Then it jumped to this one. 322. 322. Each time we date them and we move forward, we can see them jump to the new one. 427-427-427-427. Same ad set. Four clicks in a row on 565-7575. It's literally the same ad set now locked in. The only time I can get them out of this is if I pause that add or that ad set.

Ralph Burns (26:49)

Is that a different ad each time? Can you or do you not know or do you care?

John Moran (26:54)

Nope. This is the same ad. We're labeled the same. Yep. So the ad name we all like. Heidi, Patricia. When these are paused, then this new one comes in, and then they are locked into here.

Ralph Burns (27:03)

Got it. Okay.

John Moran (27:03)

So we started to identify that. We got 427 immune. Now they're going through Heidi. We did have a direct visit in between there, but they're seeing this. They have five clicks on the same ad.

Ralph Burns (27:14)

That's wild to think, like, people would actually do that.

John Moran (27:18)

Yep. And so I started to go through each one of these, and that was like 322. So same ad, and then that was paused. This is back in 322. The new one we launched at 413 is same here. Now we have this one that's taken in, taken this over, and I'm going To see is this the same one that's also going to show up now? The next two, three, four, five times. So I keep looking into this thing. Catherine, Catherine, Catherine, Catherine, Catherine. It's the same thing. They are the same ad every single time. They used to bounce, now they're locked in. They're locked into your top of funnel and it can never go to your middle or bottom. That's the reason why your funnel is shattered. It breaks. And that's the reason why Meta wants to have the campaign and the ad group to have all of the creative. Because it can jump in between different ads like we've seen sometimes it goes through different names, but the ad set is the same exact ad set every single time. Unless it's paused. It will only release the opportunity when it's paused. And I don't know anybody. This Last 1 of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, we have six Catherine clicks on the. On literally the same day. All five, seven. They kept seeing the same exact ad seven times one day.

Ralph Burns (28:20)

User behavior is just so mind boggling to me. I think that's one of the reasons I should have been a psychiatry major. Well, psychology probably because I wouldn't be a psychiatrist, but I should have been a psychology major.

John Moran (28:31)

I did everyone write the drugs. I want that one.

Ralph Burns (28:34)

That's psychiatry. That would be better. They should have gone down that road anyway. But it's very, it's closely related to advertising and marketing in general. It's like, why would somebody click on the same ad? I've seen those ads and I know those ads and they're not particularly interesting by any stretch, but it's like they're thinking about it. I remember I heard like that one of the first digital products I ever bought was Jeff Walker's Product Launch Formula 2.0. This is way back, like when I launched my first online business and I watched his webinar, like the replay of it, I think seven or eight times. And then he said in one of his webinars, he's like, yeah, on average people watch anywhere between five to 10 times before they decide to buy. Because it was like a four thousand dollar product back then. That was like all the money in the world I had.

John Moran (29:23)

Oh yeah, you know what I mean?

Ralph Burns (29:25)

So anyway, so I bought it. But I never will forget that. Because he's like, people watch the same stuff over and over again. You wouldn't think that they would, they would watch it once and then maybe the replay and then that's it. But if you're really thinking about buying something you click on the same stuff, you do your research, you Google the brand name like maybe 10, 20 times.

John Moran (29:47)

Yeah. The touch points. And they're only growing as we start to throw more ads at everybody all the time. Like, it makes sense. It's the reason why Friends is still on TV.

Ralph Burns (29:55)

Yeah, absolutely.

John Moran (29:56)

Stop. What, like 2000, like 4 or something?

Ralph Burns (29:58)

It's crazy. Yeah.

John Moran (30:00)

People are still watching. Exactly. I was watching refund reruns. But it's. It is. It makes. It makes a lot of sense. And it makes no sense at all at the same time.

Ralph Burns (30:09)

Yeah.

John Moran (30:10)

Like right now, we're in that transition period, which is hopefully Meta's AI targeting based on creative is just as good as what I was doing. Like, that's a scary proposition. And so I think it's our job as good marketers and educators of the industry to explain what we're seeing so that people. I've had a lot of times where I'm always a tinfoil hat guy. I'm always like, soon Meta's gonna just do this. And I was like, okay, John, like, go back to your cave with your tinfoil hat. And all of a sudden, like, things are starting to, like, come true, which is cool. So it is moving that direction. But I think that's the sometimes tinfoil hat theories. They become reality. It doesn't make sense why they would just stick a person in one ad set forever. And then they're like, there's different conversion events. So different conversion events are allowing now to jump. I'm like, oh, like now. That's why Capi imports make sense. It's like, we can actually control the flow of the traffic. Because if you don't, your tofu ad is stuck there forever. Good luck. That is horrible. They're just forcing you to relinquish all control and to put into one campaign with one ad set and let AI God figure it out.

Ralph Burns (31:10)

So in that ad set, if they're clicking on the same ad multiple times, you're also mixing in. Because we talked to our creative director, Lauren yesterday about this, who, by the way, is going to be launching her own new series on YouTube on creative. So hint there. Anyway, so her question was, how do you actually test creative? Or how do you know which creative to bring in? And I would always think in each individual ad set, you're going to have for one particular product, you're going to have five or six different creative types or maybe hooks and so forth. But your data shows they're clicking on the same damn ad.

John Moran (31:50)

Yeah.

Ralph Burns (31:50)

So it's like I'm not thinking about like, oh, it lasts longer. Oh, it tastes great. Oh, it's less filling or whatever. Whatever the benefit is for me, I would want to, but I lock into one thing, and Meadow almost knows that I'm locking into that one benefit. Like, less filling is the thing that's going to get Ralph to convert. Using horrible analogy here, but basically that's like a hook. And it seems like the data shows that to be the case.

John Moran (32:14)

Well, if you combine your horrible analogy with my horrible Microsoft paint skills, you get an explanation.

Ralph Burns (32:21)

Here we go. Oh, my God. Oh, yeah, He's Michelangelo.

John Moran (32:29)

Oh, yeah, look at this. Look at that funnel, baby. Oh, yeah. So this is obviously everyone knows the funnel. Yeah, that's actually not too bad. I'm pretty proud of myself.

Ralph Burns (32:41)

It's like it's all aligned and everything. Thing.

John Moran (32:43)

Yeah, look at that. I figured out if you hold down the shift button, it actually makes things straight. It's good. I'm a pro in paint. What what meta wants is if they have these users who are in the top of the funnel, middle of the funnel, and the bottom of the funnel, and you're producing all of your creative over here in these kind of bubbles, essentially, and this is all of your ads in one ad set, then what meta's job and what they are saying they can do now is saying, this person needs to see that. This person needs to see that. This person needs to see that why is is product and solution aware, but is not company aware. This person is dealing with a problem, but they have no idea that there's a solution about it. This person is actually just trying to price match your product and everyone else's product. So where what meta says is we understand where our users are in the buyer journey based on how much we can match their needs and activities to your creative and then we will combine them. Now, what they're also mentioning though, is that if I have a user in this user over here that needs to see that ad, they are going to be seeing ad multiple times. Now, meta states that as they move down the funnel, they will then see the same ad that this person's seeing. And as they move down the funnel, they're then going to see the same ad that this person's seeing. So essentially what they are claiming is we will show the appropriate ad, which is why they lock in, which is why when you're looking at creative targeting, creative testing, if you have two ads that are exact same and the audiences are the exact same, meta is going to. It can't Target to one person with two ads. So it chooses. And so everyone's like, no, I'm gonna force it with abo. I'm gonna make Meta spend the money. And what you're doing is meta said, hey, I have no one for this and that's not how I work. And you went, yeah, but I'm abo, so take my money. Anyway, it goes against the narrative now. So Meta's like, fine, I'll choose both and I'll split it. So it's going to be split down to different audiences. And so we thought, okay, that's how we do our creative testing.

Ralph Burns (34:42)

Testing.

John Moran (34:43)

If it's going to be the same audience, why don't I spend 90 of my ad spend on the same audience? I'd be spending 10% of the Aspen on, but with a different ad. So I can test with my 10 and then push it to my audience with 90% and then retest the 10%. It's actually Perry Belcher's old email marketing strategy from 2016, where he had a hundred thousand users in a list. He took 5,000 users, tested one email headline or subject line to get our 5000 testator subject line, then blast out to the other 90,000. Same exact thing. Yeah, the audience is the same. They're locked in. It's like an, it's like a, it's like an email list. So that's how these things are kind of evolving. We just have to give it obviously more time because we're seeing them locked into that one ad and then we got to see are they going to jump down to the other one. I have sort of proven it with feeder strategy, so that'll be something next. We can see the view contents and then the purchases now. So we're starting to connect those stuff, starting to jump between conversion events. So we're like, good, that's really cool too.

Ralph Burns (35:37)

Yeah, that's some next level stuff right there. That's actually combining two of the things that we've come out here in the ad lab. Not that I'm renaming it already because we don't have our. All our branding together. The point is like, that's a combination of Capi imports plus feeder strategy and.

John Moran (35:53)

Soon it'll be Cappy imports with feeder strategy on top of dog pile strategy. Oh, baby. Oh, yeah. It's good stuff.

Ralph Burns (36:00)

Make sure that you stay tuned here every Friday, 2:30pm and we're getting a lot of people watching this on the replay too, so it's insane. And we're actually somewhat on schedule here as Promised last week we would get to questions in and around the 3 o' clock time frame. And we're right there.

John Moran (36:17)

So I'm getting better at this.

Ralph Burns (36:19)

I know. Look at us getting organized and stuff.

John Moran (36:22)

Still late, but now we're on time.

Ralph Burns (36:23)

Still waiting. We're on time.

John Moran (36:24)

Exactly. 50. We like my grade in high school.

Ralph Burns (36:28)

50.

John Moran (36:29)

That's good.

Ralph Burns (36:29)

Yeah. Isn't that good enough? That's technically pass fail. My son's graduating this year from NBA. His NBA. We were talking about this. He finished his baseball season yesterday.

John Moran (36:40)

Yep.

Ralph Burns (36:40)

21 years he's been playing baseball finally. Like that was the last game he's ever gonna play. Now he's into like beer league softball. But anyway, so all of his classes are pass fail. I'm like, that's my kind of program anyway.

John Moran (36:54)

Yep, yep.

Ralph Burns (36:55)

Because 50s are good. So that is the first part of today's show. Stay tuned for the second part where we go into really specific questions from you, the listener, the watcher. I highly recommend you, you subscribe to the tier 11 channel so that you can get these lives every single week. You don't have to wait for us to cherry pick them over here on Petrol Traffic. But we're going to get into the Q and A section right after this quick break. Hey, you know, when I was first a consultant actually doing the stuff that we're doing right now in Tier 11, one of the first tools that I learned how to use was from a company called Unbounce. And they are now a sponsor of Perpetual Traffic. And the reason is, is that their landing pages and how quickly you can create those landing pages without having to consult your designer, your developer. With Drag and Drop builders now built in AI copywriting, it's even better than when it was 10 years ago when I first started using on my own to create my very first landing pages. These guys are absolutely amazing. They've got conversion optimized templates giving you everything you need to launch your pages on your own without developers. In fact, Unbounce is the leading landing page platform for building, testing and optimizing high converting pages. Powered by data from over 2 billion conversions. That is 2 billion conversions with a B. That means they know what convert. So if you want to convert more customers one platform and launch pages fast, Unbounce is offering PT listeners a special offer. They are giving you the PT listeners 10% off when you enter coupon code PT10OFF over@unbounce.com PT so head on over to unbounce.com PT, enter code PT10OFF and cash in today, convert more customers one platform, launch pages fast. You shouldn't have to wait for your designers and developers to build and test your landing pages. Get started with Unbounce today. All right, let's get to some questions here. Hopefully we'll be batting better than his batting average this year. John, it was a little bit of a disappointing year. Malacomo has a question for you. Hi John. I'm trying to generate distressed seller leads and my campaigns are having a touchdown a tough time. I'm assuming that serving no matter the bid, I've used max clicks high budget 700 bid cap like 80 no impressions clicks using manual CPC raising exact and phrase match keywords like 95 bids, no impressions. And one last thing, just additional context. We're targeting a specific country inside of a state, not national county instead of.

John Moran (39:35)

Okay, got it. So a specific county, that's going to be very difficult. When we were doing distressed seller leads, you can target like a region, then it can work. My my opinion there's something else that seems to be going wrong here. I understand the CPC cap at 80 potentially could stop learning because it can't start high and it wasn't really finding much lower. It your bids might be 250. We've had 220, 240 CPCs. That's not uncommon. DUI attorney Houston is 800 bucks. So you know that's and plastic surgeon Orange county is like two grand. So there is vastly wild ranges of CPCs. If you try max clicks with a bit cap, the only thing that I would say is set a CPC and daily budget that is fairly high. If you're using 700 high budget, set a 700 CPC. I know it sounds stupid, but what you're looking for is some sort of sign of life that tells you if this is actually even going to work at all. I do have a small half second use case that I can share with you. It's on a client that is we're having the same sort of exact issue actually. And their issue is we cannot get enough traffic because this is a highly segmented and competitive industry. So if you look at the last seven days as an example, I got a grand total of three clicks. Now they're coming in at 66 CPCs. But because we're only spending 400 a day, it will actually only give me three clicks because if this actually starts to shoot up to a hundred dollars, I can't earn one more. So it says if I know the CPC is this much, I know the daily ad spend is this Much. It will purposely. Sometimes I've seen it purposely not get enough clicks because that next click could put them over the budget because the CPCs are so high. So test with a really high CPC and what I mean, really high CPC. I'll. I'll actually start with like $80 CPCs. I'll work up to 90. I've actually gone up to 200 CPCs. What I did find is that yes, I can actually start to get impressions for like X ray repair and MRI preventative. These are hospitals searching for people to come out and fix a $500,000 piece of equipment. There's not a whole lot of traffic out there and we're only going to one state. This is Texas. But the search terms are perfect. Like in the last 14 days. Like the. I can see my three clicks out of the four that are six that I got, which really sucks. But prevent the X ray repair. Who fixes MRI machines, MRI coil repair, scanner parts X ray repair technician near me. Sometimes these CPCs are crazy. I get very little clicks. So what I would say is set it to the ridiculous and then look at your search impression share loss by budget. And that should, if. If you're actually capturing everybody. It should. And I'm so sorry. I'll actually just share this with you real quick. You can see that I'm trying to spend 400 a day and I could only spend $90 every 14 days. But I'm fairly confident in this because my search lost impression share by budget is 0%. I'm not losing anything doing to not spending too much. This is actually. There is no one there.

Ralph Burns (42:39)

It's just a limited supply.

John Moran (42:41)

Exactly. If you have anything over zero, you need to raise budgets and bids.

Ralph Burns (42:45)

So budgets and bids and then accordingly. Daily. Yeah, daily budget. So bids. So 700 like some ridiculous number.

John Moran (42:53)

Yeah. A month. Do that one day.

Ralph Burns (42:56)

Got it, Got it. And then gather the data.

John Moran (42:58)

Exactly. So set it to the extreme and just find out is it too cheap or like. Or is your account set up too cheaply for the CPC or is there really no one there?

Ralph Burns (43:07)

Yeah, I think it's a frightening thing for a lot of people to do is reverse psychology there. But if you're going to be making money on this, I assume that you're either reselling the leads there or you're using them yourself. If you're doing wholesaling or distressed buying, you're talking AOV in the tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars potentially. Anyway. All right, William Foreshaw has a question here. Hey, John, they're now three weeks and we are now three weeks into feeder strategy. Very cool. We realized that due to high price ticket item we have better results with a balance of 5050 between Standard and PMAX. Thoughts?

John Moran (43:40)

Yeah, so that makes a lot of sense. The reason why is if you have a higher price ticket item you're going to need a longer time and more remarketing. So feeder strategy is combining the first click and then the remarketing efforts and then the return branded searches and basically any way that they could possibly get back to you and you're trying to force them to come back to you. Now that will probably take a few clicks and maybe a few days to a few weeks. Now if you are doing half of the feeder strategy which is just standard shopping, what you have to say is it's going to take a few days to a few weeks and I'm betting all that on the first click and only one click. So it makes sense that you have to push more additional aspen to the remarketing effort because one click is not going to be enough attention for a two week sales cycle. So yes, I that's why I try to usually always teach like what's the best structure. It's like it depends when you have a longer sales cycle, higher or higher AOV or both. You need more time and more channels to develop that education that they feel comfortable on spending that much amount of money.

Ralph Burns (44:35)

Yeah, makes sense. Brain bite. I think a new watcher, maybe just long time listener but first time caller. Hey John, I'm new to this. Any updates on search feeder strategy? Can I run the feeder strategy with a full build built pmax campaign alongside standard shopping? Or should it just be pmax feeder? And then the clarification here, how do you apply the feeder strategy in standard shopping when dealing with a large number of SKUs, profit margins, bestsellers etc.

John Moran (45:02)

Yep. So in the can you run feeder with a fully built pmax campaign where you're talking about search and then pmax and then shopping? I have not been able to run a search and full build pmax ever only because the vast amount of variation in search terms allows for a vast amount of variation in CPC and one campaign will take the good and one campaign takes the leftover and it's not really up to me which one gets which because the various variances are too great. Sometimes a two dollar click, sometimes a seven dollar click and depending upon where they're at in their buying journey. So standard shopping was always really easy because I use a feed only pla remarking campaign. That one's very simple. It's one channel to one channel or sorry, one channel to like two channels but a full bill pmax is seven channels against search that will way overtake any quality that you'll be able to find inside of your standard search campaign. Because the PMX campaign has such a better way of identifying warm traffic and buyers that are closer to the buying journey. That's why they deliver a lot of returning customers. It's waiting for those people and then just snipes them. If you ever go into your insights and reports inside of Google Ads for performance max and look at the conversion rate of your search terms, it's like 30 and 40% all the time now there's only onesie twosies but every single one's. It just cherry picks and nails them. So your search campaign is at the detriment of. It's kind of like the forgotten child. Like the new kid, older kid, got the car, you got the bicycle. Like no, it's. That's it unfortunately.

Ralph Burns (46:31)

They got the new suit. You got the hand me down.

John Moran (46:33)

Exactly. So that's why I say I actually don't really. I don't run a full bill PMAX ever.

Ralph Burns (46:37)

Never.

John Moran (46:37)

I can't anymore. It never scales and it's not supportive enough. So if I need to do a full build P max, I'll just run Advantage Plus. Yeah, it's just way better for targeting. Your mileage may vary but that's, that's what I've been able to see. How do you apply Peter strategy Standard shopping segment out by categorical. So categories are the best way when you have a lot of SKUs. You don't often see categorical jumps inside of traffic. Categorical additions. Which means I came for socks, I bought socks and shoes. Very difficult to say I came for socks and I bought a purse. You failed at why you went to the store that day. So that's where you see if you can categorize your products and you build out your campaigns by category, then you can have an average AOV and LTV and CAC target of those categories because they're probably all within about the same ish price different than other categories. But that is how I would absolutely set things out. Now your bids, budgets to targeting your T roll as targets and all this stuff is going to be based on your profit margin.

Ralph Burns (47:26)

Sounds good. We have a new job.

John Moran (47:32)

It's got a logo.

Ralph Burns (47:33)

Yeah, it's kind of like. Yeah, maybe his name really is J Han. I don't know but I think he's just like brother either like misspelled it or whatever like on YouTube. John Moran. I'm impressed. I know this is definitely worth answering the question. All right, what advice for small and medium sized brands leveraging the feeder strategy and meta ads when we lack the capability for a data warehouse or third party attribution tool?

John Moran (48:00)

Do in app CPA of your add to carts compared to your main campaigns and also look at your click through rates compared to your main campaign. If feeder strategy working properly, you should have a cheaper cost per add to cart in your feeder than you would in your conversion campaign. And you should also have a higher click through rate. If not, it's not working properly. So those are the two things that say the new users are coming in are actually more engaged and interested as people are trying to convert and they're taking action. So use those two and make sure that those two are more effective and efficient at in the cpa, cpc, CPM and CTR for your feeder campaign. The campaign doing the optimizing for view content.

Ralph Burns (48:40)

Okay, so be view content and then gotcha. So you're saying instead of purchase in this particular case add to cart and that.

John Moran (48:48)

Yeah, I'll share with you an example of this because that's why you all are here. This would be cool to see.

Ralph Burns (48:53)

So we did here for our pretty faces John.

John Moran (48:55)

Like I know, right?

Ralph Burns (48:57)

Look at this, look at this, look at this.

John Moran (49:00)

So what we're looking at here is if we look at the customized columns and we look at cpm, then we do CPC and then we do ctr. What we can look at here for an example. This is. There we go. So I have a 4% click the rate in this one. This is actually the first week that I had a conversion campaign beat my feeder strategy ctr. Usually this is like three and this is four and five and it's like one two, two two. This one actually did pretty good this week in five. It wasn't always like that. If we look at I think like the last week. Oh no, that one's doing really well. The I think it was when we did the new creative on the 16th. Yes, it's 43 then 1 2, 5 too. So it's you want to have your click the rate be at or better than your conversion campaigns. Then your CPC is 25 cents and 13 cents compared to 60 A$3$2 and obviously CPMs are lower. But what do you want to look at here is if I spend $3,000 seven times lower. Right? 13 cents. Yeah, that's my scaling and that's you're getting all that good reward because Google Things or Meta Things is just nailing like 17,000 conversions every month. Like it's just like optimizing like crazy.

Ralph Burns (50:05)

Right.

John Moran (50:05)

So when we look at our results, we know that we're spending $3,000 and we're getting 100 added cards. So if I look above one at $12,000 I should have at least 400 add to carts. Right. Because that's four times more. So I have 100 here, I should have 400 here, I have 200, 202 and 200.

Ralph Burns (50:24)

Yeah, yep.

John Moran (50:24)

So I'm spending four times as many, as much ad spend and only getting twice as many add to carts. So obviously this one is trying to convert people so it's hounding people more often on the, trying to get them to buy so they're becoming less disengaged, they're not clicking as often as they used to when they first found out about us and when we're new and exciting. So that's what we have to look at is if I'm spending 50 grand now this one is going to be a lot. It's 1100 conversions because it's spending 50 GS every two weeks. But that's the thing where you look at and say okay, this one is 2600, 3100. I should have about equal add to carts. This one has 36 add to carts. So you see the cost per add to cart is like three and four and five times higher in my conversion campaigns, which means my cheaper campaigns are bringing in people with good click through rates. Means they're interested in, they're adding to cart, which means they're taking action. That's how you judge those without data suite.

Ralph Burns (51:14)

Got it. Yeah, it makes sense. Like if you're going all the way through, you're just getting really optimizing for a click. But they're all going through to add to cart. Not as many purchases. Obviously you're going to get some purchases there, but it stands to reason that, yeah, that's an easier way to do it. Brian J. Has a question. Hi John. The sequencing campaigns are running. Did I miss somebody here? No, I didn't. I'm running YT Feeder. Thanks. That's YouTube. But what's the other half of the setup? How do you set up campaigns to target the sequence? Traffic, video views, page visits.

John Moran (51:45)

OTCE is my favorite campaign type and I'll go through what that is in a moment. But first I have to use an asterisk. Of if you're running other channels besides YouTube for proactive outbound marketing, such as if you're running meta, for example. This strategy is much less effective for this particular question. What I mean by that is I would start what they call an OTCE demand gen, which is open target, customer excluded. The customer excludes. It's a. It's a band aid. Hopefully that will help a little bit. But because Google has officially come out, at least to me, and say that the new customer only is probabilistic, not deterministic, it means that your customer exclusion is more of a hope hope than an ask or it's an ask and a hope rather than a command.

Ralph Burns (52:33)

So they really tell you that? Did they talk to you about that?

John Moran (52:35)

I actually have the email.

Ralph Burns (52:37)

Oh, that. I remember that email.

John Moran (52:39)

Okay.

Ralph Burns (52:40)

Yeah. I thought you were being a little spy on Google.

John Moran (52:42)

No, that's what's in like. He was like, it's. Yeah, that's when he's like, it's probably probabilistic. I'm like, that's. I'm like, that's a class action lawsuit right there.

Ralph Burns (52:49)

We showed that on a previous episode at great risk to ourselves.

John Moran (52:53)

And contact that van is still outside getting Deep Throat.

Ralph Burns (52:57)

Deep Throat at Google.

John Moran (53:00)

Right. Whistleblower.

Ralph Burns (53:01)

Whistleblower.

John Moran (53:04)

So that's what's funny is so open target, customer excluded. Which means basically you're using just optimized targeting. I know it sounds stupid, but optimized targeting is Google's checkbox for go after warm traffic on my website. Let me decide who to go to is what Google says. So running a demand gen with just YouTube and using the open targeting allows meta to run warm and does your remarketing for you. You. So as you bring in a whole bunch of YouTube sequencing traffic on first click and education, the open targeting is going to be like, hey, anybody that came from there is semi interested. I'm just going to go hound and try to get them to convert. So that's the other half of that feeder strategy for YouTube sequencing killer.

Ralph Burns (53:36)

You know what I love about this show is I can interrupt you a lot and you never lose your train of thought. Yeah, I don't know anybody else that can do that. Anyway, I'm just your hype man. I'm John Moran's hype man. That's really all my role here. Big money says we should call the show Big Money does.

John Moran (53:52)

I like sense.

Ralph Burns (53:53)

All right, we're gonna skip over to his question here. John Moran's dog is up next. 33. Big money says how do you get a 90 search impression share for an exact keyword placed in a new campaign is an only keyword. When I increase budget, it spends on other keywords. Search impression share barely moves.

John Moran (54:10)

Yeah. Search impression share is based on eligibility, but is also a moving target. Like the goal post can move depending upon if there's other variations of that that so search impression more competitors enter the market or even if your CPC start to be lower. There's actually many different factors your search impression share for exact keyword is going to be. How often is that keyword showing up in the amount of total times it could have showed up. Now, what that means for an exact keyword is you have to have an exact search term. You will never. So it's built in goal post moving, which means if I'm bidding on best dog to toy and my search term is best dog Toy, I have 100% match rate for that search term and that keyword. And now AM I getting 90% of every available search that day, which means am I spending 90 GS on that keyword? Maybe 100 GS on that keyword a day? It's possible. I've spent 200 grand a day easy on clothing keywords. So you got to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars a day on that one keyword with that one match type with that one search term in order to hit that very high search impression share, which means your eligibility is. Yeah, you're getting 90 of everybody. That is never going to happen because your search keyword and your search term can now be. Can now have hundreds of thousands of different variances.

Ralph Burns (55:31)

Variations. Yeah.

John Moran (55:32)

So you have to now have 90% of the hundreds of thousands of variations near you're mathematically in the billions and trillions of dollars in aspect. So just know that you're never going to hit that. And as you add in more ad spend, you are now eligible for more. So the goalpost moves. Right. And certain impression share is based on eligibility, not market share. Just know that is, you pay me $10, you could have got 10, which is only 10% of what you're eligible for. You pay me $20, we have more variations and now you're eligible for 20, you're still stuck at the same percentile.

Ralph Burns (56:01)

Would the recommendation here be to just increase budgets and see what happens?

John Moran (56:06)

Yeah. My, my opinion is search impression share is not anything to really pay attention to to in my opinion. Now, lost by budget. Exactly. Lost by budget, lost by rank. That tells you if you're not spending enough per day or per bid. But if you're talking about search impression share, you have to like negate every single other variance that you possibly can for next year to try to get it dialed in. Then start to increase your spend. And you better hope that one search term that you're getting 90 of your spend to or 100 of your spend to is the only thing you should ever bid on. So in my opinion it's a diagnostic, but it is not anything that I actually use. A click share share is way better because that's actually what is divided by the estimate number of searches your clicks you could have received. Search and pressure share is what you're eligible to receive. So one's eligibility one's actual market share. So do click share. That would be way better. Pretty cool.

Ralph Burns (56:48)

I learned something there too. Thanks. 33 Big Bunny. Yeah, big money. All right. John Moran's dog. He is here. Last week you recommend a PMAX feed only shopping brand for a new B2B E commerce industrial product products B2B 10K budget high AOV. How should the budget be split between PMAX only and shopping? There's a follow on to this. Ecom client wants temporary or is it? That's a separate question I think.

John Moran (57:13)

Yeah, let's do the first one I think and we'll roll into the second one. So yeah, PMAX feed only shopping brand for new. Yep. So I remember saying like that is what is starting off. That's where you should go. The budget split between PMAX feed only and shopping. I would do it 8020 to start part 80 of your budget to be shopping 20 to be feed only if you're running a brand do 70201070 standard shopping 20pmax and 10 brand.

Ralph Burns (57:38)

Pretty cool.

John Moran (57:38)

Yep.

Ralph Burns (57:39)

John Ryan's dog All right.

John Moran (57:40)

Econ client wants to add temporary one month campaigns for different suppliers each with its own budget. Would Google Ads be an effective solution or meta ads instead as to add temporary one month campaigns for different suppliers? It depends on the goal of what you're trying to do. Do standard shopping easy. Nope, nope. No issues there at all. YouTube that won't work. So it depends on the campaign type. Anything that has a singular channel search. Shopping one month yes. Just have to be aggressive. I ad spend a couple hundred dollars a day really low T ROAs are really high TCPA targeting. Let that thing just go ham. You want a 200 row as set it to 10. It'll start with aggressive crazy bids right at the top for best search terms immediately. The results might look like crap but that's what it's going to take to get there for a month, so. Yes, you can. It's just very expensive.

Ralph Burns (58:29)

What would you do it with? Meta ads. What would be the recommendation there?

John Moran (58:32)

I'd have to know way more than a one off campaign for suppliers. I'm not sure what that means. I'm sorry.

Ralph Burns (58:36)

Yeah, I'm not. Yeah, okay. It depends.

John Moran (58:39)

Yeah.

Ralph Burns (58:40)

Tony Montana is here.

John Moran (58:41)

Oh yeah.

Ralph Burns (58:42)

Scarface with Scarface is offended.

John Moran (58:44)

I guess so. Pelican flag. Come on.

Ralph Burns (58:50)

$14,000. All right, all right. Say hello to my little friend. All right. Hey, John, by the way, Mike Lambert, who you met. Yeah, he does the best Scarface.

John Moran (59:07)

Oh, does he really?

Ralph Burns (59:08)

Oh my God. He has rolling it like whatever you would do it.

John Moran (59:12)

It's like crazy amazing.

Ralph Burns (59:14)

All right. Anyway. Hey, John, not too sure if you remember me, did the 5x on the TCPA for max conversion program. Everything was going smooth for 30 days and all of a sudden no impressions and no bids. Is that normal?

John Moran (59:25)

The 5X? Yeah. I had to copy the campaigns to get them started again, which put them in. Yeah. Okay. I was about to say if it just all goes to crap, that happens. Unfortunately. Sometimes the best way to do that, like you said, is to basically explode it and then go and make a brand new version. Just cloning it. But yes, that is, I've had to do that for some reason, like once every two weeks. It's just, I'm like, oh, it hasn't run in two days. Clone it. And then after I clone, if it doesn't start after five days, then I have to basically open a ticket. And sometimes Google's like, it got stuck in queue. We're sorry. So sometimes it's not necessarily a bad structure or bad strategy. They just get stuck. But it is something that I would say, clone it. If you wait three days, clone it, wait five days. Because it could be just be learning for a week. And if after zero impressions for five days, then call Google. If you're like, just con. Confirm that everything looks good.

Ralph Burns (60:11)

That's right.

John Moran (60:12)

Also just check out ad preview and diagnosis though. Just run that just in case. Because it could be like a negative keyword that was accidentally added at the campaign or at the account level that a year ago is stopping that thing from running. I've had weird crap like that.

Ralph Burns (60:23)

Interesting. All right, John Moran, student, is back for another question. Thank you. What are the top five ways to optimize standard shopping campaign? Hands in Google merchant center to boost conversion.

John Moran (60:33)

Yeah, so top five ways about to find standard shopping. So first thing, use low T roas Second, use a, use a main campaign that is going to be a catch all. So always have no matter what your structure and set up. Dogpile means the campaign strategy that I like the best for shopping is one campaign says all your products and then you're dogpiling on top of that with individual campaigns that are also running with those same products with additional ad spend. So you're doubling down on it. That's the. My second thing. Third thing is look at your titles like in. In a one by one basis which means if you have a thousand skus you're going to go one by one unfortunately and try to. You can upload it in chat GPT and they can even rewrite the headlines for you. I do that all the time. It actually is a great jump start. But look at what the titles are for each one of your shopping skus because that is going to be your keyword for your searches inside of Google Ads. So just know that your keyword is basically your product title. If you've never looked at that, it's almost like never doing keyword research on a search campaign. It's very important. Fourth thing I would say is making sure that all of your feed items are filled out as as much as it can be. If you're reselling items especially make sure you have the GTI enter MPN in there because that is the way the Google product categorizes audiences with a product. That would be one of the best things. And then in the last, the last step, obviously if you're doing like a feeder strategy or dog pile or you're doing capi imports but the capi imports is like now a non negotiable. We are importing because right now, like I said the beginning of the show running standard shopping which you know you're talking about right now, no idea. The client had 70% of all their standard shopping non brand search terms and conversions be their own customers. I would have never been able to optimize out of that without knowing that there's no button I could press that would fix that. So that was the only thing that's going to save a company that's spending 50 GS a day. And that's a pretty powerful statement there. So that is why it's non negotiable for me.

Ralph Burns (62:12)

Yeah, pretty killer. I find that feed optimization is one of the things that so many E commerce companies just completely discount. Just don't even think of and they skip over it. Yeah, the gtin is like so important. Like you Got to figure, like, it's like optimization, really. You got to feed Google, like, the information to be able for them to be able to read what it is that your product does and what it is and the feature benefits and everything else.

John Moran (62:35)

I'd be very cautious about GTINs. If you're a manufacturer, though, that potentially will look into distribution. What this means is that if you say, hey, I'm a recovering fat person, so I got to a create cookie next to me. So a cookie. The gtin of this cookie is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Now, if you're the manufacturer of this cookie and you're never going to resell it, Google has no use for that gtin, really. You can use a gtin which will allow you to make major changes to this cookie. And that thumbprint of gtin is a way that it identifies that this cookie stayed the cookie whenever changing the title, images, pages, descriptions, whatever. However, if I am going to resell that cookie and I use your gtin, I now can get your traffic because Google has audiences it knows need that product. So if I resell it, I can earn some of that traffic because that's the only way that Google knows who wants to buy that cookie is based on the barcode. So if you're a manufacturer, don't release it. If you're a reseller, get a hold of that with your bare hands.

Ralph Burns (63:28)

Yeah, sounds good. That's a good way to end the show there with a cookie.

John Moran (63:32)

There you go. I did good today. I got a cookie, you get a cookie.

Ralph Burns (63:36)

Give you a cookie. We actually sent out a bunch of cookies this week. Week. Which I'll tell you about maybe this weekend. Yeah. What's that?

John Moran (63:42)

This is yours. I just grabbed a package.

Ralph Burns (63:44)

Oh, really? We sent it to the wrong prospect. Crap.

John Moran (63:48)

I thought you.

Ralph Burns (63:48)

Well, work on efficiency. I'm gonna blame Ryan for that one. All right, everyone, thank you so much. I think we answered most of the questions here. A lot of new watchers this week, John. Pretty exciting and not as many questions, but I think pretty good information, which is what we try and do every single week here on not tier 11 live on the ad lab.

John Moran (64:11)

In the ad lab. Yep.

Ralph Burns (64:12)

In the ad lab here on Fridays, 2:30pm Eastern every Friday. Don't miss it. Same time, same channel next week.

John Moran (64:21)

Yep. Appreciate you all.

Ralph Burns (64:22)

Nice, man. We will talk to y' all next week.

John Moran (64:25)

See you good, everyone. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Ralph Burns (64:28)

All right, well, that is this week's show. We'll leave links inside the show notes here in order to. So you can get a little bit more information on deduping some of the things that John talked about a little bit more like this is a masterclass in how to I wouldn't even say hack these algorithms. That's not the right term. How to engineer new ways in which to make them more effective. And I think John is the person that from my standpoint I've been doing this 15, almost 20 years now, one of the best if not the best in the industry and figuring out reverse engineering how these platforms work to ultimately get results for clients and to help them scale and grow. And that's what we're in this for. So all the links are over on the show notes@perpetualtraffic.com make sure if you were just listening to this show that you go back and you watch it over at perpetualtraffic.com forward/YouTube. So on behalf of my amazing co host Lauren E. Petrullo and John Moran until next show, see ya. You've been listening to Perpetual Traffic.