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- [00:00]
Ralph Burns
Hello and welcome to the Perpetual Traffic podcast. This is your host, Ralph burns, founder and CEO of Tier 11. And today is a show where we are going to be talking about media mix. Not media mix modeling, but media mix and the right way to look at which channels, be it email, organic, meta column, Google, TikTok, you name it, any display network, Taboola for that matter. Which channel is actually the one that's driving your business and also most importantly the one that takes up 42% of all online e commerce sales, Amazon. And this is a major challenge and this is a analysis that myself and John Moran have done couple of times on this show. But more importantly, with some of the more recent tools that we have, we're actually using capi imports, if you're familiar with that. We'll leave some links in the show notes for previous YouTube lives. Now we call it the Ad Lab where we do talk about capi import as well as tier 11 data suite where you can actually determine where the traffic that you're either paying for or not paying for. It's either earned, you're paid for it, okay. Or you know, it comes sort of organically or naturally to your site. Which channel is the one that's getting the click, which is the one that's actually initiating the first interaction and which is the one that's actually sealing the deal and getting the last click and the conversion. And in this case, this is a very large advertiser for us, very all, everything that we're going to be talking about here today. Once again, it's a case study. It is a brand that we want to keep private at this point. However, you, the perpetual traffic listener, whether you're a service based business or a digital products business, or obviously an E commerce business like this is, you can learn a lot from it on how to decipher the data, how to read the tea leaves in order to determine where to spend your marketing dollars. And that might be on content that might be on more ad spend on meta. And this is the question that we get all the time. I was on three calls with prospective customers today and they all had the same issue. And I know if you were listening to this show, check, chances are you're struggling with the same issue. So we come to some very solid resolutions here how the whole thing works, especially with Amazon, which is sort of this black hole in many cases, depending on what type of relationship you might have as an e commerce brand. But then how to make sense of it all so that you can ultimately allocate the right Resources in the right spaces in order to scale and grow. So, without further ado, take it away, boys. You're listening to Perpetual Traffic. Are you looking for new audiences for your business? Well, Snapchat is full of engaged users you just might be missing. And if it feels like your current audiences on all those other social platforms are tapped out, it might be time to diversify over time to Snapchat. Here's why. 75% plus of 13 to 34 year olds in over 25 countries use Snapchat. 40% of Snapchatters aren't even on TikTok daily. And it's not just gen zers. In fact, nearly one in four Snapchatters are over the age of 35. And 85% of Snapchatters discover new products and brands through social ads. And that's 17% higher than the non users on the platform. This is an untapped platform. I don't know many people who are advertising on it right now. It's still a blue ocean for you because with Snapchat, you have the potential to reach a hugely untapped audience and drive incremental growth for your business. So if your paid ad strategy could use a boost, it might be time to put Snap on your roadmap. Go to snapchat.com perpetual traffic to learn more. Snapchat is now giving away thousands in free ad credits to new customers. Go to snapchat.com perpetualtraffic to find out if you're eligible.
- [04:21]
John Moran
Just impresses me every time.
- [04:23]
Ralph Burns
Every single time. I get the little hairs in the back of my neck and there's a lot of hair back there.
- [04:30]
John Moran
Migrates south in winter.
- [04:32]
Ralph Burns
So it just migrates. Just goes to the back and beyond. Just sort of stands up on end. So a credit to our creative team at tier 11 for that amazing intro every single, single time. I know people are now sick of hearing about it, but you know what? I like to gush about our people because our people are amazing.
- [04:49]
John Moran
Oh yeah, yeah. And it's, it's unbelievable. It really is. I have no idea even where to start on how to like put something like that together. So it's, it's awesome.
- [04:58]
Ralph Burns
How do you, how do you do that? Like, I used to be good at like video editing and now I look at all of our people, like Lauren and all our team. I'm like, oh my God. There's so many, like, levels above where I ever was. And I was never good, great, but I was always sort of mediocre. Like I was an affiliate selling acai and colon cleanse, John. So, you know, you didn't have to.
- [05:18]
John Moran
Be that great colon cleanse.
- [05:23]
Ralph Burns
You gotta have the colon cleanse with the acai.
- [05:25]
John Moran
Let's never forget that. Yeah, I definitely could. I always could use some colon cleanse. Like, I'm. I'm. I know this is gonna sound gross, but I am like, I don't know why. My stomach has always messed up. And then my doctor put me on something. I was like, kept it regular. I'm like, this is fantastic. I've been living 35 years without this stuff. So colon cleans, even back then, now till today, that stuff will just never die. Like, our diet in America sucks so much that it's just now, like, should be like, multivitamin colon cleanse and water. Like, there you go, the three things you need. And energy drinks.
- [05:55]
Ralph Burns
I'll tell you what not to, like, keep on this subject, because people really don't want to hear about our digestive tracts here.
- [06:00]
John Moran
But when I went.
- [06:01]
Ralph Burns
Well, I think they do. Yeah, that's color. Color. Yeah. Let's stay away from the color side. When I went vegan for 90 days, I told you this.
- [06:10]
John Moran
Yes.
- [06:11]
Ralph Burns
Like, I was hardcore. I literally had nothing. I went to Italy. I didn't have any cheese. I didn't have any pizza. I was in Florence. I never had Florentine steak.
- [06:20]
John Moran
It's kind of like, it should be, like, a sin.
- [06:22]
Ralph Burns
I know, I know. I was, like, very disciplined. Now I had wine with dinner every single night. So, I mean, that.
- [06:28]
John Moran
I don't know.
- [06:29]
Ralph Burns
That probably counteracts a lot of it. But anyway, I never have to worry about any of that colon cleanse stuff. That was one of the nice benefits. Oh, my God. Never felt so clean in my life. All right, we're going to feel clean. Let's get off that subject and transition over to stuff that we're really excited about talking about. Instead of defecation and otherwise clean colons.
- [06:53]
John Moran
We'Ll talk about clean data.
- [06:54]
Ralph Burns
Clean data. And this is a bit of a turnaround story. Well, I don't know if it is or it isn't. It was just like, we were blinded to the data. We didn't really know. Like, you can give a little bit better explanation here, because I think there was some. There was some challenges that we faced here because there was a change in leadership. There was some changes. This is always what's sort of happens oftentimes when you have some larger clients. We actually had a client together where they fired their entire C suite all in one day. That was Great. My son was graduating from college that week and I'll never forget that weekend.
- [07:29]
John Moran
Yeah, it's kind of fun when a publicly traded company just decides to wipe a C suite. Yeah, that's fun. Yeah. You know, little wrench in your weekend.
- [07:38]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, well, it's a good time. So. But anyway, so they've had some changes and so we're, we, we had a team, I guess, a little bit of background that sort of understood a lot of things that we talk about on this show every single week, which is what we're trying to do here. We're trying to educate you and anyone who's not listening live. But we had quite a few folks that listen to these and watch these sort of after the fact is we're trying to teach a new way of digital marketing. And the new way of digital marketing is so basic to me. And this is one of the things that a little backstory, like, John and I have known each other for years and years, but about a year and a half ago, we really vibed on this idea of business metrics that matter and growth that scales, which is ultimately sort of our marketing pitch here for tier 11. But the point was, is like all the stuff that you see in this siloed world of like, you must manage Google by the Google roas in platform, you must manage your meta by your meta roas in platform. Amazon has nothing to do with anything else like that you're spending over on all these other platforms. We just feel then rightfully so, because we're 100% right here is like, that's total bullshit. Yeah, it's. It's an ecosystem. They all play off each other. Email is part of that. Organic is part of that. And unless you have tracking tools like obviously tier 11 data suite, we talk about CAPI imports here plenty of times, like, you need that visibility to be able to see how all the channels affect each other. And when you don't have that visibility, it's really hard. And I think that's what we're kind of coming into. So I'm. That's sort of a little bit of my segue into what we're going to be talking about here today. But this is, I swear to God, I'm on sales calls, like 10 or 12 of them a week and half of them have this issue. I know you talked about it extensively, so. Thoughts, ideas, reflections, confessions.
- [09:33]
John Moran
Oh, yeah, it's funny. It's the same story every time. There are a lot of times we'll find companies or talk to clients that have Been in it for so long that the, there is no, there's no forest. It's just like the tree, so you can't see the forest for the trees kind of thing. And so a lot of times this can be very quickly remedied by taking just a step back and resetting. It's kind of like turning off your computer and turning it back on again. Just kind of looking at the metrics and looking at the data in a slightly different way. Absolutely. And we have a client that is a fairly large brand. And when you have very large brands, you are less and less directly effective in your marketing because there is a lot of moving parts that were already happening when you got there. Things like in store sales, online sales, existing customer sales, Amazon sales, both new and returning year over year trends, multiple teams, channels that have stopped, channels that have started, more channels that have been focused on more channel or less, channels that have been. Ad spend changes. It gets insanely. We call it like spaghetti metrics, where everything just kind of is. Is in a big pile of spaghetti and you're trying to pull a string and see where the other side comes out. So a lot of times you do have to kind of like throw out the pasta and start new stray pastas, I guess. You know, everything is now aligned. And you do that by taking a step back at all of your metrics and saying, if we look at what we have done since we started and where we were at compared to the previous year or compared to what was happening before, it starts to paint a lot better of a picture and a lot easier to understand because week over week may look crazy, but year over year may be like, oh, we're actually doing pretty good. So the client that we're discussing had some siloed approach to the metric in terms of their channels. So, you know, Meta does the meta thing, Google does the Google thing, Amazon does the Amazon thing. And I think it's fair to say that people that are on Google are also on YouTube, are also on Meta, and are also on Amazon. Like they're the same people. So our job was trying to find the appropriate channel mix and spend in order to grow. But there are things that are kind of already setting you up for failure when you're about to enter into a large company. What I mean by that is, let's say you have a hundred thousand people already buying from you and you take your ad spend from 0 to 10,000, that's a massive increase, or a $1 to 10,000. That $1 to 10,000 is a 10,000% increase in ad spend but you are not going to 10,000% increase 100,000 sales. You're looking at incremental and you're looking at, you're looking at what new growth can you provide in that short period of time. But the percentages when you're looking at larger companies or have existing sales, they will not match because it's not starting from zero to a hundred. With zero to 100 spend it's already at like 6,000. You're trying to get it from 6,000 to 61,000. That's a thousand more. Whatever it is, let's say sales and you have to spend money to get there. So it might be 50% increase in spend and only a 10% increase in top line, but that 10% could be $400,000. So we have to take a look at an approach of saying, okay, what metrics can we monitor to say is the business healthy? We always like ncac, that is one of our staples. We always like mer, that is another one of our staples. And by reintroducing those metrics or I guess I would say introducing those metrics in a company to say here's the actual story as to what has been contributed rather than what we're looking at is attributed, you get to start to see a different picture. So that's what we're going to be talking about today is the Amazon, the Shopify, the meta, the YouTube, the Google, the TikTok, the organic, the in person sales in, in their distributor stores and yada yada yada and kind of clearing all that data out by saying we're going to throw attribution out the window. We're going to throw even spend by channel out the window. We're just going to look at pure cash in, cash out and also orders. So that's what we're looking at is I'm going to share screen and I'm going to give you just a, just.
- [13:43]
Ralph Burns
A snapshot and this orders on Shopify and on Amazon. Right.
- [13:49]
John Moran
So here is the metrics here just off of total ad spend, Amazon meta, Google, everything, total ad spend, the total Amazon orders, Shopify orders, total orders and ncac. And NCAC is the cost require first time customer.
- [14:06]
Ralph Burns
But everybody on this call already knew that, right?
- [14:10]
John Moran
Yep, yep. Just checking. I hope the NCAC is a total cost of acquired first time customer. I know man, it's been like, like 30 episodes so far. I hope people still, people still ask.
- [14:22]
Ralph Burns
Questions about what's on CAC again. All right, yeah, keep going.
- [14:27]
John Moran
Here's Something that's important to know is there's $14,000 in spend here and there's already 11,000 orders. Now what this tells me immediately when you're looking at $19 NCAC is that this spend is sort of disassociated with this metric here of the total orders. Now why would that be? Well, think about Nike shoes. If Nike paused all of its ad spend in one day, in the next day, would they have zero sales globally? No, because the ad spend is disconnected from the current sales. They still have people walking in off the street in their stores and saying, I need some new shoes. Maybe they don't even have a cell phone. They're still going to buy regardless of that ad spend. Maybe they walk into Costco and they see a product on the shelf and they say, that's pretty cool, but I want the red color, so I'm gonna go buy it on Amazon later. That is, regardless of if they have ad spend, there is a lot of that happening in this account because they had a good distributorship, they had good retail stores selling their products. They had good Amazon presence already because of the in store traffic that is free. So this $14,000 in ad spend did not drive those 11,000 orders because there was a lot of simple just brand coverage. So that was already happening. This ad spend of $14,000 could be shut off and you will lose a very minimal percentage amount of that total order. So the total order of 11,000 is sort of like your base. This is like, okay, if we didn't have ad spend, you can kind of just mark that blank. This is what would have happened already. And that's where you're seeing those very cheap cacs of 1,9 good.
- [16:10]
Ralph Burns
And this business is also in a major retailer as well. So we're not even looking at that at this point, which is, which is fine. That's kind of gravy because that's going to be in addition to. So okay. And there's also following so far.
- [16:24]
John Moran
Yep. And they also had Amazon vendor central, which means Amazon was actually making large orders just from the people that would naturally go and buy their product from Amazon like they would naturally from a large retailer.
- [16:35]
Ralph Burns
All right, before we go forward with this, because this is sort of a important part to this whole story here, just explain to people the difference between the two. Vendor central and seller central. Yes.
- [16:50]
John Moran
So Amazon seller central. You kind of. It's a diy like you're starting your own store on Amazon. You may manufacture product, you may not. You may do fba which means you send the product to Amazon and they sell it on prime, or you can ship it out of your garage like it's your own seller and you have control of your store on Amazon. Amazon vendor central is you become a vendor to Amazon. Amazon is the retail store and they order products from you based on their sales volume and their future predicted sales volume. So if they expect that the summer is going to be a really good summer, they may place a larger order than they did the previous summer. And you simply sit back and receive a purchase order, you know, a PO from Amazon, and you fulfill that PO and you get paid for it. And you have zero marketing control, ad spend control. It's nothing. It's just Amazon says, hey, I'm selling a lot of your products. I'll take 5,000 more. And you say, okay, and that's the order. So that is something that was already there before a dollar was spent. And that's important to know because why.
- [17:53]
Ralph Burns
Would people choose one over the other? Like in this case, this is a larger brand, like it's backed by a huge company. So just explain, maybe explain that to people just because like this Amazon thing is the thing. Like, I swear to God, it is. So it's so misunderstood. So anyway, just basic foundation, I think, just to start.
- [18:12]
John Moran
Yeah. So I think the, the reason why you would want to do an A vendor central is if you have a good brand, you are focusing on more retail distributorship or in store. Maybe you're not even doing much marketing, but you have a good household brand name that a lot of people like know and trust that are buying it for a little while and you just want to open up a new channel like you would open up a new store. So it's like, hey, we're already in Costco. Should we go to Walmart? Should we go to Target? Should we go to Amazon? That's the same type of relationship. Like, I don't have my own store on Target. Like I don't have a shelf that I walk into every day and have to stack crap on and try to sell that. That's seller central. Vendor central would be Target calling me up and saying, hey, I'd like to put your products in my store. That's vendor central. So do you have that sort of your withholden and beholden to a company as to how much they can sell of your product, but you still get your minimally advertised price selling in their stores and you have a wholesale agreement that you sell them that at a certain price. It's basics, almost before marketing, before E commerce, before everything else. Like when Walmart was becoming popular, way back when they were the first Amazon vendor central. That's kind of the way to think about it. So Amazon is nothing but Walmart. That's basically it. It's just online. All the Amazon just copied Walmart and just did distributorship just like how they did. So it's, it is literally just like selling it in Walmart. Now people are to Walmart and buying it that have never seen your ad. That is why there's a baseline of sales.
- [19:40]
Ralph Burns
Right. So in this case we're talking they are a. They are on vendor central.
- [19:46]
John Moran
Well, they're on vendor central and they have a seller central ad account that they are spending money on their own brand name so that vendor central orders more from them and higher volume. So they're pushing those sales by trying to promote themselves through Amazon.
- [20:01]
Ralph Burns
Interesting. This is like a math problem.
- [20:04]
John Moran
But that's, that's where like you imagine trying to like measure all this crap on in platform Facebook. Yeah. It's going to be like 1/8 of the story maybe.
- [20:13]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, yeah. Oh absolutely.
- [20:14]
John Moran
Yeah.
- [20:15]
Ralph Burns
But it factors into the story because at the end of the day we don't really care about the in app metrics. We care about like NCAC overall and profitability for the client and how they behave from a business standpoint. Like that's what we're trying to do. Marketing is just a tool in which to do that. So you have to factor all these things in. You can't look at everything in a silo.
- [20:38]
John Moran
Right. And we knew that because there are so many new and even more so a ton of existing customers. If you were just to launch a meta ad or a performance max ad, you're going to attribute massive amount of sales instantaneously to yourself. Like we can launch a brand campaign and 20x this in an hour with like a thousand bucks all day long. Now, it had nothing to do with us. Exactly.
- [21:06]
Ralph Burns
But you look great, John. You're like, look at me, I'm a 20x ROAS. I know we've beaten this drum before, but it's like it's the same thing over and over again.
- [21:15]
John Moran
That's why I'm gonna go on LinkedIn and then say comment. God, if you want to be like me because I got a 20x, like that's the crap we see all the time.
- [21:22]
Ralph Burns
Look at my screenshots.
- [21:24]
John Moran
Right. So that's the part where we have to. When you're more experienced in this, if you understand that there's already 10,000 sales, the next dollar, you, you are not going to be able to say I did that. And that's in platform top line nowhere. So how do you measure the growth of what you're contributing to is sales and sales on new customers. So if there's already 10,000 customers, let's say 5,000 of them are already new and you haven't really spent much money. That's the reason why it looks like this. That $19 NCAC is not real. That's just simply the we have some spend going, but we already have thousands of sales. So if you measure the little spend to the already there thousand sales, it's free sales basically because they're disconnected. So as soon as you put a dollar into this system, you're going to see NCAC rise immediately because now this is fresh ad spend to a new audience. Sure. So you're measuring the incremental. That's a very, very common way of measuring is what is the incremental lift of that ad spend and then how is that equating to the total ncac?
- [22:28]
Ralph Burns
My job is to interrupt you. By the way, you're so nice, you never get pissed off but you know.
- [22:34]
John Moran
If you help me because I'll trail.
- [22:36]
Ralph Burns
Off my wife, she's like actually, my wife is actually okay with me interrupting her, but I interrupt her all the time anyway. I'm sort of an interrupter. Anyway, set that aside. Why are you showing just January here? Because isn't that when tier 11 took over? That's why we're starting, oddly enough. Hint, hint, gonna change. Yeah, rolling on the bottom there. Anyway. Okay, keep going. I'm intrigued.
- [23:00]
John Moran
I get it.
- [23:01]
Ralph Burns
So far.
- [23:02]
John Moran
What we're gonna do is do a simple calculation. First. What we're looking at here is the total NCAC metric which is the result of ad spend increases and total new customer increases. Now there was already a ridiculously low impossible NCAC metric that exists which is $1.19, which is lower than the cost per click. So we already know that's not real. What we have to look at is if we add new customers and we can add new customers at a low enough NCAC, we should not see our total NCAC of $1.19 go too high. Go into levels of non profitability which would be around fifteen twenty dollars of an ncac. We had a target of about fifteen dollars, kind of like all in. And that's what we mentioned to the clients from day one is we can get there. But as we scale, we want to make sure that our top line NCAC, including Amazon sales, does not exceed about 15 to $20. That was our range. They originally thought it was more like $30 and they said, hey, it's actually more like 15 to 20. So we had that target set. So let's do a small cal after we started to see where we're at.
- [24:21]
Ralph Burns
Now what we know correlatively, like their, their naov is typically what, like 30, as I recall.
- [24:29]
John Moran
It's increasing.
- [24:30]
Ralph Burns
Okay. It's higher than I thought.
- [24:32]
John Moran
It's been increasing, but now it's up to 42. Yep.
- [24:34]
Ralph Burns
Yeah. Okay. Any new average order value on a new customer, that's.
- [24:40]
John Moran
I can pull up their back end Shopify, but it will display their brand name. So we'll get there, but I'll grab some screenshots in order to do that.
- [24:46]
Ralph Burns
Secret.
- [24:47]
John Moran
Exactly. Super Secret Ninja Squirrel stuff. All right, so we have 121, 126. This is last month's total.
- [24:54]
Ralph Burns
So where you came up with your expressions, but I just don't even ask anymore.
- [24:58]
John Moran
There, there is a Secret Squirrel. I know that Secret Squirrel TV show.
- [25:04]
Ralph Burns
Maybe I aged out of that. I don't even know Squirrel.
- [25:08]
John Moran
Wow. This is 1965, so I don't know.
- [25:13]
Ralph Burns
Apparently I could actually say that.
- [25:17]
John Moran
Thanks, grandma.
- [25:22]
Ralph Burns
I know Phineas and Ferb, but anyway, there you go.
- [25:25]
John Moran
All right, so we got 121126, which is June's ad spend. Now let's re. Let's reduce that. Let's. Let's subtract that from our first month spend because that's kind of like the growth. So I got 121, 126. Let's subtract that from 14, 038. So there's $100,000 increase since January on average to last month. So that is the total increase here. Now I'm going to pause there just for a moment because what's interesting about that is after basically adding $100,000 in ad spend, on average, we're looking at an NCAG increase from 1.1 to 6.8. So 6.89. NCAC. That's the total cost of acquired first time customer when we're looking at everything. So we sort of saw that there was a massive amount of Aspen increase and it went from 14 up to 185 down to 121. So it was averaging around 100,000. And I will, I will share that with you, but we're gonna, we're gonna jump over to another part just so we can tie everything back in together. Let's look at the total orders from the inception. We have 17665. So I have 17665 minus 11885 here and there's 5780. So 5780 Delta between 17 and 1185. And then we're going to bring back in this other calculator here just for a 121126 minus 14 038. So we have from month one to month six we went from 14,000 to 121. So it's been increased essentially since January by $100,000. And there's 5,780 from just comparing month one to month six. So it's kind of like the month one to month, month six. What's the difference to spend and what's the difference in. Right. So if we look at 100-708-8 and 5780. If we divide this by, if we divide 10788 by 5780 and that is an $18.52 NCAC. What this is is your incremental, which means if you had a dollar and you added a whole bunch of eighteen dollars that takes your dollar average and brings it up to a seven dollar average. So incremental NCAC target. Now what's funny is we agreed upon a total NCAC target of 15. We're seeing an incremental NCAC of 18 which is bringing our actual NCAC to 6.89. Now in a 44 AOV product, that is not a lot of gross profit margin loss for that type of like basically 6x scale. So looking at it in a different way, saying, okay, if we already had a baseline of there was already 11,000 before you got here, what did you do? Well, we added 5,780 more new customers at a cost of 18 each. Now this is also not a full true story because this total ad spend has Amazon included, which we did not run, we did not manage that. That was not included in this metric. We are including, sorry, it was not included in our management but is included in this metric. And so when we're looking at, well, could we have been more efficient? Absolutely. Could we have targeted more aligned? Absolutely. We hopped into the back end of this Amazon account and noticed that there was a massive amount of increase ad spend into the branded terms starting in May and June because the total ad spend in April was heavily reduced.
- [28:45]
Ralph Burns
Yes, yes, I see that blue dark block right there, which is obviously a question.
- [28:52]
John Moran
Yeah, so that was actually starting to increase the funny enough Though, is that.
- [28:56]
Ralph Burns
Largely on Amazon or was it Amazon? Was it meta? I forget now.
- [29:00]
John Moran
It was actually meta. So we started, we started scaling up more and more and they said, whoa, whoa, whoa, guys, you can't go from 14,000 to 185 and only increase your Shopify orders by a thousand. I agree, yes. That would be very, very bad news.
- [29:15]
Ralph Burns
Yeah.
- [29:16]
John Moran
Now, I mean, we have to kind of take a look at the 5,000 over there. But anyway, so what happened was, is we actually took our 185 Aspen, we started reducing it it. So the 185 started reducing it down. Now inside of time lag is about 28 days. That's what we're able to identify as time lag in the account is 28 days. Put a dollar in, you get all of your money back 28 days later. So what's interesting is after we started to pull back our spend down, we saw that Amazon orders started to come in a lot, or not. They didn't start to come in when we started having our Amazon sales down. When we started to reduce our spend was already at the same time that we saw Amazon orders already starting to increase fairly quickly. So what ended up happening was we saw that as we pulled back meta, Amazon had to bid higher and more often for the brand name to attribute more to themselves because of the loss of our, of our Facebook spend. And then what's funny is after we reduced that down, we still kept a NCAC that was lower than where it was at 13. But now we've come back to where we were closer to March, where it only went from $430 to 6.8 dollars, basically $2.50 increase. But the orders are up 4,000 more. So that is a very, very healthy scale because of A time lag, B, brand power, and C, we are spending a lot less on these people because we've reduced spend. So that kept us lower. If we wanted to scale again, we would see the same transition here, which is from a low number to a high number, back down to a low number. But if we want to get up to that next stair, step up, we're going to have to go in, back into this territory and spend because we have to wait for those sales to come in, but you can immediately back off and see the fruits of your labor. We've proven this many times on this exact show here by saying this is my own personal company with a partner. If we're spending on average, let's say 48k per week in the first four weeks and we see our Amazon revenue at approximately 47k. Okay, excellent. Then we can increase our ad spend from 40k up to the 120s and 130s. A basically tripling of that ad spend. So now we're at 130 and we see our Amazon revenue upwards of about, you know, keep 90 grand. So it did increase with it. Now we saw Shopify sales increase as well. But fast forward to more recent times here where we can take that spend back down to an average of $50,000 per week. And what did our Amazon revenue do? It stayed at 68. So we're basically $20,000 higher in Amazon still with the same spend that we were six months ago or actually a year ago. But now our media efficiency ratio is averaging actually at a 3.16 of 50 grand a week, not a 2.13 for 50 grand a week. So we basically went from 2.13 upwards to 3.16. So 2.3 to 3.1, same ad spend. Why we do have more sales that are coming in on unattributable and non paid platforms like Amazon that we've already purchased. Got the brand name out there, those are new and now returning customers, lifting up our media efficiency ratio because we buy new and they become returning. I don't care where they come from, I just want, and I just want more of them. Exactly where they buy is none of my business as long as they buy my product. That's kind of the name of the game there.
- [32:38]
Ralph Burns
Having said that, a solid ncac, a blended NCAC between all the different platforms, I mean obviously people are making less money if you're using seller central, vendor central, I'm probably a little bit less familiar with on that side. But I have to assume that still Amazon is taking their cut. So if you're making like a, you know, a 30% margin, like in an ideal world with an NCAC at $15, let's say, or probably not at $15, it's probably going to be less than that. But you're still giving half of that away to Amazon, so you have to be comfortable with that. But you're acquiring a customer which is owned by Amazon first. Then the key is, and we've talked about this, we had a couple of calls on this this week. It's like, then you need to transfer that initial customer back to your site so you can get them. Especially if you have a CPG product or a product that's going to be purchased multiple times or you have complimentary products that you can cross sell Upsell, you name it and get them off Amazon and over on your site where you're making more money.
- [33:39]
John Moran
Exactly. And it's. How to describe this? It's not attribution. There's no such thing as an organic sale on Amazon that came from Facebook that you can attribute with any metric and with proof in the world it does not exist. So that's the part two where if you're saying, hey, why did someone walk in?
- [34:01]
Ralph Burns
That's what you always say.
- [34:02]
John Moran
Contribution, not attribution.
- [34:04]
Ralph Burns
Just explain that. Like that's a great thing for a lot of these people that are watching.
- [34:09]
John Moran
To keep in mind.
- [34:10]
Ralph Burns
Yeah.
- [34:11]
John Moran
So attribution is, is what took credit for the sale. Contribution is. Is that credit true? So what I would say is like, I bought brawny paper towels from Target. Which meta ad did that?
- [34:30]
Ralph Burns
Hey, you know, when I was first a consultant actually doing the stuff that we're doing right now in Tier 11, one of the first tools that I learned how to use was from a company called Unbounce. And they are now a sponsor of Perpetual Traffic. And the reason is, is that their landing pages and how quickly you can create those landing pages without having to consult your designer, your developer. With drag and drop builders now built in AI copywriting, it's even better than when it was 10 years ago when I first started using it on my own to create my very first landing pages. These guys are absolutely amazing. They've got conversion optimized templates giving you everything you need to launch your pages on your own without developers. In fact, Unbounce is the leading landing page platform for building, testing and optimizing high converting pages. Powered by data from from over 2 billion conversions. That is 2 billion conversions with a B. That means they know what converts. So if you want to Convert more customers one platform and launch pages fast, Unbounce is offering PT listeners a special offer. They are giving you the PT listeners 10% off when you enter a coupon code PT10OFF over at unbounce.com forward slash. So head on over to unbounds.com forward slash PT enter code PT10OFF and cash in today. Convert more customers with one platform. Launch pages fast. You shouldn't have to wait for your designers and your developers to build and test your landing pages. Get started with Unbounce today. Or maybe it's the TV ad or the CTV ad or you know, just the fact that they've advertised enough in the past and you just know them and you like the, you like guys in, in flannel shirts which you probably do exactly. Large lumberjacks. Like that would be your brand. Like I don't know, but.
- [36:28]
John Moran
Right.
- [36:28]
Ralph Burns
Name me the exact TV commercial that prompted you to buy. That's attribution.
- [36:34]
John Moran
But what you're saying is like maybe not. I know that section might be more contribution. Like that's what's great.
- [36:39]
Ralph Burns
That's contribution. Actually that. That was my point. That was what I was getting to.
- [36:43]
John Moran
Yeah. It's like it will never attribute, but it did contribute. So your meta ad that is actually bringing people to the local store to buy the product because it's new, exciting and they just found out about it and they found a retailer close to them will have all of the contribution and zero attribution. Because you cannot attribute an in person sale on a third party retailer in physical properties based on a meta ad. That's only counting the sales on Shopify, however. You laugh. But every client wants to know why that can't happen.
- [37:14]
Ralph Burns
I know, I can think of a half a dozen.
- [37:18]
John Moran
Exactly. So the contribution means that something can contribute to a sale even though it didn't attribute the sale. Now the flip side to that attribution would be something like brand. So I have 100 people that search my brand name and 100 clicks and 100 sales with 100% conversion rate. Now that is attribution. Now did we believe that the brand campaign started a person on their journey to wake up that day, type in that perfect brand Name and have 100 conversion rate?
- [37:50]
Ralph Burns
Of course.
- [37:51]
John Moran
No. Exactly. And that is attribution, which means brand attributed $10,000. Did it contribute? Actually, no. It actually it had a contribution margin in the negative technically. Because if you think about the CPA on your brand is contributing to a negative contribution margin because that sale most likely would have happened, but it didn't happen because it happened in spite. And so you're adding cost to something that would have happened anyway. And that is where you have amazing attribution at a thousand roas. But it didn't contribute anything to your ncac. Right. Actually made it higher.
- [38:29]
Ralph Burns
Right. And that's what. But I think one of the big. I know we're. Obviously we're going to get to the questions here because we've got a lot packed up.
- [38:35]
John Moran
I just have one screenshot I want to share.
- [38:37]
Ralph Burns
Yeah. One last question for you on this is that one of the biggest things that I think you and I see whenever we analyze any sort of ad account is that people are typically, especially if they have an Amazon agency, they're overspending on Amazon on the brand side and they don't have to. And I think your screenshot that you just showed 5 or 10 minutes ago sort of shows that. I don't know if that was that specific case, I forget which example we've used is that you can overspend on brand and that's wasted spend. And if you actually take that away and you can trip, you continue to spend on the top line awareness sort of consideration, maybe on meta or maybe on YouTube or whatever it happens to be, you can actually increase your mer because you're spending less on Amazon on searches that people are doing anyway. And they don't need to click on your ad, they're just going to find it organically once they search for it because they're aware of it because they saw it on another platform.
- [39:30]
John Moran
Right? That's exactly right. And so that's, that's where if we're gonna try to say the place that the person bought it from, that's what contribute. That is what most people do. And that's where they say I don't know what the Amazon team's doing over there, but they got tacos and they got asins. I'm like, okay, explain that. Well, it's a total actual cost of sale of a product. But what did they search? I don't know. Was it the brand? I don't know.
- [39:53]
Ralph Burns
No idea.
- [39:54]
John Moran
Yeah, kind of got it because right now I'm getting grilled between my click through rate on my brand product. But we're spending 100 GS on that same campaign over there. We have no idea of. And so that's where we always have to keep that kind of like that full circle of where is every dollar going? Is it actually contributing or is it doing a good job of attributing? Agencies will take all the attribution in the world as you crumble your business into the ground because they're getting paid full price. But if they're not contributing, decline is the one that gets hurt. So we're looking at this in a, in a before and after scenario. That was where we're looking at January 1st in. That's in that sheet. And this is the before and after. And it's as white labeled as I could possibly get it here off, off a screen where like the full name is gone. But this right here of January is where we started with them. This is, this is month one. So we're looking at a time where they were down 40, down 43. This is September 23rd to September 24th as example like down 23, down 4%, down 10, down 17, 1.1 when they hired us. And then it's up 24, up 70, up 139, up 119, up 73 and up 77. So as soon as they hired us inside of January 1st, which is exactly this date here, we can kind of see going to yesterday and comparing that to the previous year, we have a nice like wedge of year over year performance. So orders up 35%, return customer rates down 8% for 100 more gross revenue. This is where it is being contributed to. That is where we're driving the traffic to. However, there is a massive amount of bleed to the people that are going to Amazon because you'll never convince me in a billion years that a person's like man, I really want that product and I will never go to Amazon. They didn't grow to 4/10 or 40% of all online e commerce transaction because people avoid them, they are flocking to them. And every time they flock to them, it comes out of your Shopify account. We're still up 100 over there. Now we got to measure the contribution to Amazon sales and that's where we're getting into NCAT Globals.
- [41:51]
Ralph Burns
Correct. Pay attention, Amy Gimble the last five minutes or so because that is a killer case study. And the question people will have is, well, it goes up John, but then it comes down. But remember, even though this is a $42 NAOV AOV, I forget exactly what the AOVA let's say it's the NAOV is $42. It's still. You say it takes about 28 days from first impl. First impression or first click. I assume it's probably one of the other to purchase, which is this is not a huge cart. Like it's $42, but people are still shopping around. This is a highly competitive space. We're not going to say what space it is, but a lot of competition here.
- [42:30]
John Moran
Well, this product's also cheaper on Amazon than our own website.
- [42:34]
Ralph Burns
So that's a whole other. Okay, now why I got to LA next week.
- [42:39]
John Moran
Could I share screen again here for a moment? Yeah, for two seconds when you said it goes up and comes down. I do wanna make mention real quick.
- [42:47]
Ralph Burns
Sorry, we're a little, we're a little slow on the old like 1996 MacBook Pro here.
- [42:53]
John Moran
Oh yeah, that's right.
- [42:55]
Ralph Burns
I'm on my backup. Anyway, I guess you don't have producer privileges.
- [42:59]
John Moran
No, I think I.
- [43:01]
Ralph Burns
There you go. I don't know he lost them somehow. Yeah, you were.
- [43:04]
John Moran
I have no idea. All right, here it is. I've been banned. Okay, cool. So let's do it. Right, so, right, so you got a massive scale from 14 to 185 up to April and then a back down of about pullback of 60 GS starting in May and then, then held that in June. And so we're looking at the metrics here. Let me pull this up. This one here we have that massive scale in April, that was 140% increase year over year. And then it went down to 119 and went down to 73. That was a decrease. Now you'll see it drop down over here, but that's just because we're only one third of the way through July and we've made 40 grand, so. So 1/3 of July and 40K, you got to multiply it by three up to 120. What was last month? 120. We're still on track for the same pace, so that's what's really nice. But the AOV right now is up 20, 15, 26, 50, 31, 13 and 52. So we're still. We're 52 higher average order value. Now we're up to 40 bucks where it was last year at 26. So that is also making sure that we're focusing on the right products. Right. Naov for a mass amount of new customer sales, even though we're hemorrhaging 60 of all sales a week. He probably would have attributed over to Amazon, but have to take a look at that too. Cool.
- [44:12]
Ralph Burns
Time lag. So important.
- [44:14]
John Moran
Yeah.
- [44:15]
Ralph Burns
28 days. Is it first impression to final purchase? Is that what you're measuring is 28 days or is it click?
- [44:20]
John Moran
Yeah, from when they see the ad to when the reported conversion from that user. 20, 28 days.
- [44:24]
Ralph Burns
Think about that. This is not a very expensive purchase, but there is so much consideration that goes on in it.
- [44:31]
John Moran
And also high amount of competition too.
- [44:33]
Ralph Burns
High amount of competition. Like that is so key. And I remember when we were deploying like the Advantage plus sales strategy on the Facebook side, like we needed to like chill for a bit because first off, the algorithm's doing its work. Secondly, it's a 28 day cycle. Like you have to think about those things and manage expectations. If you are an agency owner, if you're, you know, doing this for a company, you have to manage your boss here. It's like, don't worry, worry, don't jump off the cliff yet. Like, we know what we're doing so exactly. Anyway. Hugely important here. I know we're a little bit late. We only have 16 minutes here because I have to take care of my mother today.
- [45:13]
John Moran
Yeah, let's. We'll do it in 15 minutes.
- [45:15]
Ralph Burns
We can do it.
- [45:15]
John Moran
All right.
- [45:16]
Ralph Burns
How do you want to do it? You want to read them or you want me to read them?
- [45:19]
John Moran
I could read them as I think we'll be faster if I can just kind of read quickly because that's how my brain works. If someone reads something to me, I'm like, I don't know what he said. I don't know why. Just doesn't pay attention. I'm like, oh, he's busy. I'll think about something else while he's reading something to me. Did it exactly add I guess squirrels everywhere. All right, so is. Is exact match dead? I can't get any conversions with it. My CPA on exact is 4 times higher than broad phrase since January continued. I like that. Good job. Is feeder strategy socially gen still good? I've been doing this for seven years. Never struggled more with PPC than I am now right now. And also wondering if do pay consultation coaching classes. So the yes, we do do consulting through tier 11. So we can actually introduce you to this wonderful woman who is now heading up all of our sales, who's fantastic. So we can have you put in contact. Just contact here 11. We do have consulting packages available also the in terms of exact match, by the way. So just. Yeah, yeah. Much easier on the eyes. Well, at least for me you're a good looking.
- [46:17]
Ralph Burns
I think you're a highly attractive man. I don't know why you're like always disparaging yourself. So anyway, so what do you got.
- [46:23]
John Moran
To give these rest of you guys a shot?
- [46:25]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, that's right.
- [46:25]
John Moran
You're the brawling man.
- [46:27]
Ralph Burns
Just like it's just too warm in Florida to wear the flannels. All right, easy peck. What's the solution here?
- [46:33]
John Moran
So Exact Match is absolutely not dead. It's just the what I think you saying that you've been having. You've been at it for seven years. What has essentially happened is and I hope they've been kind of keeping up with our teachings here is that Google has shifted over from traffic to selling traffic to selling sales. So what that basically means is that because Broad Match can now turn into any literally anything you want and Aimax is on top of that, that what Google is having a very concerted effort into doing is being able to take another one of your competitors keywords and turn it into your exact Match keyword that you're bidding on. And simply for a time taking their two dollars bid against your five dollar exact match bid and then having it go up to let's say $6, just kind of knocking you out and then giving it to someone else. AI Max Bingo. Is it?
- [47:21]
Ralph Burns
Did I say that right?
- [47:23]
John Moran
Exact match doesn't work extremely well with automated bidding strategies. Not anymore. And if you're doing manual cpc, it's even worse. Just because you have to com, you have to think about you're in an ecosystem where Google will basically mark it up to whatever it knows it can charge the least restrictive person that you are competing with. So if anybody is on maximized conversion value or maximize conversions, if any one of your competitors is there, they will beat you every time if you are using anything other than that. So that is because your manual cpc, unless you're bidding a hundred every time, they can just go $27 click and they win at 100% conversion rate. Then their $27 click is ridiculous. But their $27 new customer is fantastic. So that's, that's the name of the game. So you're not going to want to bid $100 a click, but they will pay $100 for a new customer and Google knows that. So as long as they can keep everyone on the automated bidding, maximize conversions, maximize conversion value model, Google is the only one that wins. So we have to sort of by taking the power back from Google is by playing Google's game just better than our competitors, which is the name of the game. Now can I use like first click Happy imports? Can I look at new customer only? Am I using more individual channels and measuring it correctly versus running just everything through broad match pmax. So we're here to teach those advanced strategies that hopefully your competitors are not doing and they can get that in there. But Exact Match isn't dead. It's just not what it was two years ago. It is, it's. It's completely dead from what it used to be. And now Exact match is more often like do you want a small set of keywords or categories or search terms that you know you want to be number one on forever? It does not matter. Then bid $200 per CPC you might pay $7. But when those conversions start to come about, you can actually snipe those and win those too.
- [49:09]
Ralph Burns
Okay, that's a great answer. And by the way, at tiereleven.com apply easy pack if you do choose the consulting model we do do that on a one on first come, first serve. Julio has a question.
- [49:21]
John Moran
All right. Hi John. We're a bit unsure about how to manage our feeder strategy during holidays like fourth of July. Do you have any best practices or recommendations for this? Yes. So during fourth of July sales I would actually turn off anything that is bringing you new customers. Now obviously 4th of July is over. So let's talk about like let's say the next holiday, whatever that may be. But if it's the next holiday, what you have to imagine is look at your sales cycle and look at your customer journey. The feeder strategy is to buy more people who are not interested in you yet. Top of funnel, middle of funnel, or, or first time searches, bottom of the funnel, you're trying to acquire those users. Now if you know that a sale is going to happen seven days at the least. Yeah, it's showing 10. Exactly. Now if you, you can actually pause your feeder and do more conversions about 10 days before the sale. Why? Because Google will only target the people that are going to be interested in the sale. There's very little people that are just going to search one time and be like wow, this thing I've never heard of is 20% off, who cares? But the people are like, okay, I'm getting ready to buy this. And you want to keep showing them ads, keep showing up for all their searches and being top of mind and being top of funnel, funnel. That's your, that's your competitive ads. Those are your conversion ads.
- [50:21]
Ralph Burns
So basically saying like hey, by the.
- [50:23]
John Moran
Way, yeah I've, I filled up my Target store with a thousand people in the sales tomorrow. Well, are you going to try to bring in another 100? No, you're going to take a thousand people and extract as much cash out of them as possible. Stop feeding it, start converting. Once your sale is done, reduce your conversion campaign, start increasing your feeder to bring those new people back in cheaper.
- [50:41]
Ralph Burns
Do we know in the feeder strategy if they click multiple times? I've never asked you that question. Like I like you don't, you don't really care. I guess at the end of the day it's like you know, if they're searching for something that's sort of quasi related to your product, does it matter if they click once or 15 times? Do you. All you really are looking at is what's your North Star in that case.
- [51:02]
John Moran
Yeah. So it's basically because Google in your conversion based bidding is just going to sell you conversions. It will not sell you traffic. You increase ad spend and you get the same Amount of clicks just for higher cpc. It stops that. It's because what it's doing is saying I'll give you 500 more and it's like, cool, I'm just going to raise your bid for the people I think are going to buy anyway. You're like, no, no, I want traffic. Like you didn't ask for that, you asked for sales. Yeah, you did because it's a conversion based bidding strategy. So you want the traffic along with the conversions, but you don't want to buy just one or the other. That's where feeder strategy comes in. Fresh traffic that you're bringing in and then beating them up with your conversion campaigns while they're there.
- [51:37]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, beating them up, just getting them.
- [51:40]
John Moran
By dire and subscribe.
- [51:41]
Ralph Burns
Obvious next step which is to purchase. That's, that's all it is. Do we answer this for Julio? I think he had like a three part question.
- [51:50]
John Moran
And when doing this, is better to update our existing campaigns along step ones to avoid disruption algorithms? No, I would actually just simply. Oh wait. Oh specifically should we adjust product titles to reflect seasonal moment, increase budgets or run short term promotions? Was his middle question. Oh, also when doing this, is it better to update our existing campaigns? Launch that one. So always keep the same campaigns, never launch anything new in Google for short term. Google is a self learning algorithm. So as long as you can teach it in that window, yes, you could do so if you have like the best WYSIWYG at the best price that everyone wants, it'll learn new days. If you don't have that use case, don't start anything new. Just simply increase, decrease or pause and restart. Try not to pause and restart your conversion campaigns, your traffic campaigns, doesn't matter, it's not learning on anything. So your feeder, you can pause and start those, but your conversion campaigns always, never pause those always bring them down to like a dollar. So it still watches traffic. It's severely limited by budget. Really needs cash to go convert those people that day because it's watching that traffic traffic. Easiest way to scale it back up is just say okay fine, go get them. So as long as it's on, it's watching traffic.
- [52:49]
Ralph Burns
I don't think we've ever hit on that before. That's a great tip right there. Knowledge box everywhere.
- [52:55]
John Moran
Useful features sometimes.
- [52:56]
Ralph Burns
Well, to the, to the Google, to the Googlers out there, the directors of marketing, those are very important things. Stuart Little, my man.
- [53:04]
John Moran
All right, great name. All right. And feeder strategy for pmax, do you use feedback on I guess feed only or Images as well and retargeting website visitors as well. So. So in feeder strategy for pmax I usually just use nothing but feed only. I don't like to give anything else to pmax besides the feed for feeder strategy only because if I need search or display or YouTube or Gmail or I'll use other camp other channels for that. I think a full build pmax is great if you want to just set it and forget and focus on other channels. But if you're focusing on Google a feed only pmax will be better for your hierarchy of what you're trying to structure your new and returning customers into. Pmax is just like. Like as long as you give me everything, I'm gonna go wherever I want regardless of where you want me to go. And I'm attribute everything whether I contributed or not. So I don't like using full build because it eats other campaigns outside of my little feeder strategy that I'm trying to build for that specific channel.
- [53:54]
Ralph Burns
Got it. He's got an add on question here. Where we get to you, Joaquin Stuart again.
- [53:59]
John Moran
All right. Feeder strategy that was. I think that was the same one that was just repeated.
- [54:04]
Ralph Burns
Okay.
- [54:05]
John Moran
Oh, does right center shopping unload.
- [54:07]
Ralph Burns
Sorry, I can't read.
- [54:08]
John Moran
It's. Yeah, no worries.
- [54:12]
Ralph Burns
Twice. Like why did I pick up on that?
- [54:14]
John Moran
I don't know. It looked similar. So here's something to note. The T roas inside of Google Ads is actually does not have anything to do with performance. It really, really does not. It. It is not a campaign or it's not a measurement tool to say, hey, I believe that if I was to squeeze more juice out of this, I will actually get more juice. Juice. It's not. It is a predictability off of who they think are going to come back. It is not so smart in saying I predict that Ralph's first search today will perfectly buy, but John's first search today will not. It is not how T roas works. Please understand everyone that T roas is a restricted bidding strategy, which means if I increase my troas target, I reduce the people Google will target because it's only going to go after the people it thinks or knows will convert. Once they're gone, it doesn't spend. Why won't my campaign spend? My TRO has too high because you're targeting six dudes in Europe, you're not going to spend anything. So when we're looking at the actual results of this and I keep proving this for fun, I keep making more ridiculous and more ridiculous use cases just to Piss people off because it's kind of fun, but it's my nature. I think. It really is. And so my five, I made a 5% troas target. There you go. I spent 50 grand to make 150 grand on my 5% t roas here. I'll make it one. I care like set it to whatever you want. Does not matter. It's absolute because I have good quality search terms with good products, with good placements with good people. T roas is only going to restrict that, so it's useless.
- [55:44]
Ralph Burns
Oh, do you need good products to make all this stuff work? I forgot.
- [55:48]
John Moran
T Roz will not save a campaign. Let's just put it that way.
- [55:53]
Ralph Burns
If you're selling a crappy product, I don't know, go watch marketing school or something.
- [55:58]
John Moran
I don't know if T row has group businesses.
- [56:00]
Ralph Burns
I would not be Eric.
- [56:02]
John Moran
Yeah, exactly.
- [56:03]
Ralph Burns
All right, so Stuart Little, I think we answered his question. Joaquin Shabbat, by the way, like Eric, Stu and Neil Patel are awesome, right? I just like to give them. All right, here we go. Joaquin has a question.
- [56:14]
John Moran
All right. We're trying to grow in Europe but our Google Ads campaigns haven't performed well, especially with attribution issues. How would you approach launch new campaigns for the same store in Europe? So this is a little bit more of a loaded question because you said our campaign, our Google Ads campaigns haven't performed well, especially with attribution issues. Your attribution issues could be the reason why the campaigns haven't performed well or it's in spite of. So I don't really know yet based off this question. However, I have been typically importing all of my conversions inside of Google because I need to know what actually has happened, not what Google could attribute with this kind of crappy tag that misses 40% of the data. So I would actually look at first in my opinion make sure that the data that is being imported into Google Ads from a conversion, whether it's coming from tag, GA4 edge, server, third party attribution, whatever it is, is, is highly accurate and plentiful based on what is going on. A good test of this is if I spend but I don't see good attribution. Does my top line get better? If no and no, then it's campaign or something else. But if you spend and a campaign looks crappy and your top line looks better, you have an attribution or data problem. So I don't know which one's which. But see if you can cross both those bridges at different times and Say which one's actually happening because those are two different paths depending upon what scenario we're looking at that.
- [57:24]
Ralph Burns
Got it. I have a question for you.
- [57:25]
John Moran
Yeah.
- [57:25]
Ralph Burns
How many bang energy drinks have you had today? Because you seem. You seem really dialed in.
- [57:30]
John Moran
So why do you ask?
- [57:32]
Ralph Burns
Oh, that's the mdnt.
- [57:36]
John Moran
During summertime, I wake up at like nine, so I actually get like seven or eight hours of sleep because I'm an insomniac. So this is like. This is John on sleep. Wow.
- [57:45]
Ralph Burns
Sleep. See, I'm Ralph on four hours of sleep, but it's like some, like some drugs. So anyway, this is me. I'm more relaxed and you're hyped. So I think that's. There's like a difference between the two. There's a difference.
- [57:59]
John Moran
I'm getting like seven or eight hours of sleep every night for like the last three nights. So I'm like dialed in right now.
- [58:03]
Ralph Burns
Dude, you get seven or eight hours of sleep every single night. It is like a superfood. It's like a drug. It's like, oh my God. This is what.
- [58:09]
John Moran
It's like four to six. Yeah.
- [58:11]
Ralph Burns
Normal humans do this. I should.
- [58:13]
John Moran
I know you guys all feel great. No. Why?
- [58:17]
Ralph Burns
Feel great all day. All right, so Ran has a question.
- [58:20]
John Moran
Question.
- [58:21]
Ralph Burns
We didn't hit storm.
- [58:22]
John Moran
All right. A lot of accounts get a very high CPA for the brand protect campaigns as they run max conversion value. I've always used manual for those. What your thoughts? So I actually use a manual maximized conversion value with the T ROAS target that is like a 3 and 400%. So if you use maximized conversion value, Google's price fixing will absolutely spend all of your money as long as you never catch it. So maximize conversion value without a troas or maximize conversions without a tcpa. They should have. They should have finished the sentence. Maximize conversion value at any cost. Maximize conversions at any cost. Well, that at any cost gives Google free reign to set your CPCS to whatever they want. As long as you're getting the conversions and there's no target, there's no goal. So I usually for brand protect, if I want like a 1500 or 2500% ROAS, I'll set it at 300, which means you got to keep your CPCS lower and not really crank it up to the moon because they will absolutely do the that. But if you set a target, but you're the only brand that can actually get those users, Google has to force the CPC down because they're not going to take your brand name with your automated bidding and give it to someone else. So it forces them to reduce CPCs. Right.
- [59:26]
Ralph Burns
But they want somebody with higher CPCs make that money. I mean God.
- [59:29]
John Moran
Exactly.
- [59:30]
Ralph Burns
Everyone's doing AI generated search these days. They got to figure out ways to make money. Soren does have a follow up here, so.
- [59:38]
John Moran
Oh, how would you reduce CPA for a brand that also have resellers for less RRP and their brand of CPC is very high with bad performance proximity. Oh. So if you do have other resellers. The issue that we found is that if you're not manufacturing you have to follow map. If you're, if they are following map and you're following map then they shouldn't have. Should have a lesser, I would guess lesser price. So I'd have to kind of go through that. Why would I'm guessing you have a higher price than your competitors?
- [60:04]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, don't know.
- [60:05]
John Moran
I'm trying to figure out what RRP is. I thought that was retail price but maybe I'm looking at it wrong.
- [60:10]
Ralph Burns
All right, maybe Soren asked that question. Next week when you come back. 2:30 Eastern. All right, we got a few more here Mark.
- [60:17]
John Moran
All right. What is the reason behind a 2575 budget split on feeder strategy? Yes. So I actually like 75 of my ad spend on on the feeder and 25 on the conversions because I will, I will spend 75 or 75 of my budget on dollar click exact match really high quality search terms that you would normally spend four or five dollars on. So when you go over to the 25% campaign that is spending $4 versus the 75% campaign that's spending $1 you actually buy equal amount of traffic. So If I bring 10 in I want to see 10 come out or the of those. So it's basically spent on the initial CPC differences for the same keyword based on max clicks or manual CPC versus a conversion based bidding strategy. Got it.
- [60:58]
Ralph Burns
All right, rapid fire here because I know you're going to call at the top bottom of the hour. Ender deep.
- [61:02]
John Moran
Yes. Hijab was the best structure campaign generation clients on meta one campaign, one asset. That's what I do for everything nowadays. But I'm doing first click cappy imports in order to steer those campaigns and also uploading about 40, 50, 60 pieces of creative in order to get it to go there. So that's all. We already have a bunch of of bunch of meta structure videos here that you can go back and look through it. They're called Andromeda. Yeah. These days only have one advantage plus lead gen campaign. Yep with Cappy for my company good initially performance was great but since past few days it has been low. What should I do at more creatives? My question would be is if it's a Legion campaign. This Last week was 4th of July and no one was working. If especially lead generation seems to be maybe more B2B maybe B2C. But you have to also consider that for the past week people have been out of the state date potentially. So my question would be is it also as bad as last year's fourth of July week? If so, don't worry. If it's way worse then we have a bigger issue that might not even be related to Facebook.
- [61:55]
Ralph Burns
Sounds good Soren. He's a manufacturer.
- [61:59]
John Moran
Okay yeah. Then if you have other retailers who have a lower retail price than you I would enforce map for sure. Like develop a map price say everyone has to stick to this because then it's now you versus the retailers with everyone having the same price. People usually like to buy from the manufacturer first. That's how you get your those people back. You cannot be outpriced price by your retailer. That's why Amazon is sucking up every one of our clients revenue because they get free shipping. We have to pay 10 bucks to get there next week.
- [62:24]
Ralph Burns
That's true. All right, last question here. Just because he's from Austria maybe I'll drop by Thomas's house.
- [62:31]
John Moran
There we go. All right. Greetings from Australia. How do you know your Vermont glove business? Facebook ads max 50 ads and 10 card which ads to stop and are you just adding as the ongoing campaign? Yes. So I know we're at time but I will show you you this. This is what I have been watching is I have been using this based on a total account and I'm looking at the highs and lows. What I mean by that is you do not want to say my goal is 30 so reduce remove the 40s. That is a short sighted because what if you are you also going to reduce the 20s that are balancing you out to the 30. So when you're looking at the law of averages you can't hack off one side because then you just lose volume based on the balance.
- [63:10]
Ralph Burns
This is a super great question by the way. Way. Oh yeah, because the tendency is kill all the 30s.
- [63:16]
John Moran
Exactly. So when you're looking at here this is my Andromeda this thing is still pumping out some good CPA. Even post sale I'm still at 22 CPA. When we're looking at all of the amount spent sorting, descending here. And what I have to look at is say, okay, if I, I don't want to go above 44, that's where I want to be. So this 53 here, I can hack up this 53 but I will lose 6 purchases that are already counteracting this high CPA with this low CPA with 23 3. So yes, I can bring down the 22 down to 20 but I lose 6 sales. Is that worth it? No. I'm still below goal. So until my main CPA goes above my target, I will not kill the highs because they're, they're set off balance by the lows. So I, I want more sales. So if I can have, if I have a 50 average, I'll take all the hundred dollar CPAs I can get and all the dollar CPAs I can get because that gives me volume at my target, you know. But I have not had one go, go way off yet.
- [64:09]
Ralph Burns
I, I'm gonna make a final analogy and Thomas, I'll see in Vienna in December. The point is like this is almost like channels. If you're getting a crappy like we all know like meta and YouTube look like crap in most cases. However, do you shut them off because they're coming, they're feeding the dollar leads that you're getting through Google search or branded search or whatever it happens to, to be. So it's sort of the same thing. It's like the same principles apply here. I just sort of had that revelation here because in years gone by we've just oh, kill the 50. That has nothing to do with the sale. Well it does look at the global ncac, not the individual ad ncac.
- [64:51]
John Moran
Yeah, and that's exactly right. So you want to measure Andromeda by the efficiency of everything working together. You don't want to say, well the greeter that brought the person in the store, store, he's expensive. It's like there's a reason why they're in the store buying stuff. So maybe not yet like it. We can get rid of the greeter, but we have to get rid of the sale. Ah, maybe we don't do that yet. So that's the part where you have to balance the good and the bad. If you have a lot of good, don't get rid of all the bad because they balance each other out to equate to high volume.
- [65:19]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, well that is it. There's a festival in Vienna. I forget what it's called. The Christmas market markets. That's where we're going. I'm not speaking there. Yeah, the wife and the kids. That's what we decided anyway. That's many, many months from now and many, many degrees colder than where we're at right now because both you and me are, like sweating our asses off.
- [65:40]
John Moran
All right.
- [65:40]
Ralph Burns
Well, thank you so much for joining us this week on the Ad Lab, cooking up all kinds of crazy stuff.
- [65:47]
John Moran
All right.
- [65:47]
Ralph Burns
Hope you enjoyed this week's show. Of course, wherever you listen to podcasts, make sure that you leave us a rating and review. We're quite popular over on Spotify right now as well as. Thank you so much for listening to this show because if you Google marketing podcast, top marketing podcast, no matter where you are in the world, our little logo comes up. So. And that's because you, the listener, are continuing to listen. Obviously you find this show valuable. That's the reason why we do it. And leaving a rating or review gets us out to a larger audience. So we can teach people how to do this stuff the right way because a lot of people don't teach it the right way. And we try and teach it the right way here at Perpetual Traffic. So on behalf of my amazing co host, Lauren E. Petrulo, who is not here today until next show. See ya. You've been listening to Perpetual Traffic.