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- [00:01]
Unknown Marketing Expert
I spent over a decade in the trenches of marketing attribution, tracking over $5 billion in ad spend and over $10 billion in revenue. And here's the truth. Most marketers are overwhelmed second guessing every decision, drowning in data because no one taught them to use attribution the right way. That's why I built the Five Forces, a proven system to give you clarity, confidence and direction to use attribution data with a system Right now, Perpetual Traffic listeners can get $800 off the Five Forces course and system over at five forces.com just use the code PT. You don't need more tools, you need a system. Go to fiveforces.com and get the system. Use code PT to save $800 today.
- [00:56]
Ralph Burns
You'Re listening to Perpetual Traffic.
- [01:05]
Lauren E. Petrulo
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- [01:52]
Val Riley
This is an untapped platform.
- [01:55]
Lauren E. Petrulo
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- [02:27]
Val Riley
Hello and welcome to the Perpetual Traffic Podcast. This is your host, Ralph burns, founder and CEO of Tier 11, alongside my amazing co host Lauren E. Petrulo, the.
- [02:38]
Unknown Guest
Founder of Mongoose Media.
- [02:39]
Val Riley
So glad you joined us here today. We've got an amazing guest here today who is patiently waiting in the virtual green room and we're going to be like dropping more news that you probably haven't heard about as of yet because Google is Sneaky, aren't they? Kind of sneak their meta these days. They kind of sneak around, don't really tell you what they're doing. And then it's like boom. All of a sudden it's like Advantage plus Sales and it's automated and meta with no announcement. Which has been an ongoing series that we've been doing here on Perpetual Traffic. But it's like Google's doing now, doing the same thing and especially relevant with landing pages and where you're sending your.
- [03:20]
Unknown Guest
Traffic, final URL destination is going to make a big difference.
- [03:25]
Val Riley
I remember when like we talked about this with Taz Bober, we which we'll leave links in the show notes to that episode. If you haven't listened to that, definitely go back and listen to it. She was a great guest here at Perpetual Traffic and also talked about the big landing page update for Google that they didn't really announce, but it's like where you send your traffic people. Like we've done so many shows on Google especially and we never really talk about this. So I'm kind of excited to talk about that here today. Are you excited, Lauren? You're just, you're just glowing still from like my amazing co hosts.
- [04:01]
Unknown Guest
Because I like in our pre call there was just all this stuff that we were talking about with her and I'm just like, oh man, my to do list to deliver to my team.
- [04:10]
Val Riley
Yeah, there's so many juicy nuggets we're going to deliver here today. So anyway, without further ado, we have Val Riley, VP of marketing over at Unbounce. And yes, Unbounce is a sponsor of this show. And the reason is because Unbounce is awesome. That's why. And Val, like so good to have you on the show. Like I my story with Unbalanced because I got sucked into Unbalance like by Ollie, one of your predecessors. Know you're in a long line of super smart people there at Unbounce, so welcome to the show and thank Ollie. Now that he's sitting on his gazillions of dollars in some Caribbean island enjoying his payout. It's. You have a lot of predecessors who are super smart bringing us up to this place. So maybe give us a little bit of background of your history of becoming the VP of marketing over Inbounds.
- [05:02]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, sure. First, this is like a little bit of a dream come true. You guys are in my ears when I'm at the gym or walking around. And now here I am on your podcast. So really excited to be here. Yeah, fangirl Moment. Okay, it's over. Yeah. So I have really strong B2B SaaS background. More than 25 years, sorry to say. Like, showing my gray hairs. And I came to Unbounce because of an acquisition that was made in July of last year. I was working for Insightly CRM and that company was acquired by Unbounce. And so we merged the marketing teams and I was the last man standing. And it was hard for me at first because I had been such an Unbounce user for. In my last three jobs. I mean, it was just synonymous with landing pages. You need a. We need landing pages. Oh, let's go buy Unbounce. And now to be on the other side of that and be at the company that's a category leader and really kind of sets the tone for the landing page space. It's just been exciting and a little bit intoxicating, actually.
- [06:02]
Val Riley
Yeah. Yeah, very cool. We're going to leave some links in the show notes, some of Ollie's, like, older videos. I'm going to find the video that sucked me into Unbounce. And then when I was first starting this agency, I used it on every client I got and immediately, like, I didn't really have to do all that much for the ads, like, they were paying me for the ads, but it was like the landing pages that grew all the businesses. So that was sort of like a secret weapon. I didn't want to tell anybody about it, but now everyone knows. So there you go. Quarter of a million people every single month listening to this show. Val. So one of the big things that we had talked about before we hit record here today is yet another Google update. Taz talked about the landing page update, which does relate to this update to a certain degree. Maybe we can start there and then kind of figure out, like, strategies specifically after the click that can increase sales, grow businesses, increase conversions, all that stuff.
- [07:02]
Ralph Burns
Yeah. The announcement that Taz Bober covered with you in that recent episode, we kind of said Google kind of like stealthfully dropped that announcement in February. And it didn't have a lot of fanfare, and it sort of seemed like a little bit odd. But we ran with it, of course, because it spoke to the importance of, like, a super quality funnel. And of course, the landing page being part of that super quality funnel. But the new announcement coming out from Google is about AI Max. And to me, the way I'm reading AI Max, I'm almost wondering if Google dropped that announcement back in February that was like, hey, guys, get your house in order, because it's not going to work at all now. And it's really not going to work if, when we launch AI Max if you don't have these basics down. And so I almost. I'm wondering now if it was like a foundational announcement because AI Max has been in beta since May and it's rolling out. I'm hearing early Q3. I'm not sure what you're hearing.
- [08:06]
Val Riley
Yeah, well, we're going to be. We have John on the show in a week or so. John Moran, who. You've listened to the show for a while and he hasn't really even talked about it, but he and I, well, we got access to Performance Max, or pmax, which you now refer to it, like about a year before it was released. And it was great back then, and then it sucked. It became like just this massive retargeting for warm traffic. It was like.
- [08:32]
Unknown Guest
Well, everyone was using it. It was like no one had been using it. And there's so much competitive advantage.
- [08:38]
Val Riley
Yeah. Unfortunately, we kind of screwed ourselves by like telling everybody to use it and then everybody started to use it and then now it's just basically a retargeting tool. So I'm little suspect on this whole thing with Google and all these different changes, but we're always suspect here. So it's like until we actually use it, then we can say, yes, it's good or yes, it's total crap. So how you relate this to. It's really. It's about if you take a step back, all of these platforms, whether it's Meta, TikTok, Google, you name it, you're spending advertising on them. They want that user to stay on that platform. They want to have a great user experience. Zuck talked about it years and years ago. It's all about the user experience. Well, now it's all about like him sucking up to Trump and doing weird things he's doing. Anyway, the point is that they still care about user experience. And this is just one more thing that Google is now doing. Because it's like if you click and you go to a page and you back click, obviously quality score a big part of this. But like, it seems like this update is related directly to some of the things that we're going to be talking about here with the after the click experience. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Ralph Burns
Yeah, no, and you're right. Like Google has always been like this ultimate customer first organization. Like time and time again we've seen that in practice. Right. Instant answers at the top of your search results without the need to click through. I mean I love the new AI powered overviews. Just makes it easy to understand search topics. So like I don't know if anybody's surprised that Google wants to really make sure advertisers are prioritizing that user experience or they're not going to serve their ads. Like it's definitely aligned with what we've seen in the past. What I'm seeing with AI Max that I find interesting is that the essentially they're saying we're going to do smarter intent based matching. Right. So beyond your manual keyword list we're going to broad match right. And we're. And it's going to surface queries that otherwise you might not have thought about which is great. But if you go backwards from there. Right. It's almost like what we. It's back to basics. It's those basic things of having a quality funnel with an ad that matches the content on the landing page that brings people to a user experience where they're not going to back click, they're going to stay, they're going to get the information that they want, they're going to convert or consume, et cetera. Is doubling down on the basics to make sure that AI max works for your organization. That's how I'm reading it.
- [11:23]
Val Riley
We talked about this a little bit before is like if you don't make the user experience congruent from ad to landing page there is a risk more so than ever I guess with this update is that they might not serve your ads or you know, or either at all or at the very least like not even worse. Like that's worst case scenario. They just simply won't serve them. The other worst case scenario which a lot of clients of ours and we look at this all the time is impression share. It's like for that particular keyword. So PI Lawyer Michigan for example which is a very competitive keyword. You might. Or a car accident attorney Detroit like you might pay $879 a click. We actually have a customer who did pay that and converted on it and got an $879 signed case as a result of it. The point is they are sending traffic to a landing page not unbounced because it's you know, it's custom made. Point is is that it's a great user experience. Like whether it's unbounce or whether it's not. I know majority of the clients that we have especially in the E commerce space, we can get into this in today's show just are Sending to product pages which really aren't that great. I mean, Google shopping, obviously like you're sending to a product page because you know you're using the catalog, I get that. But it's like if you're, if you are competing against best premium face facial moisturizer in the health and beauty space and your page talks about shampoo or how great your company is, Google ain't going to show that ad. I'm sorry, it's like. And they shouldn't because it's a bad experience. So this is just more of an extension of that, I think the Taz Bober episode we talked about 52% of users, B2B's aren't even using landing pages. So just that onto itself, just straight to the homepage. So it's like you kind of need to wake up here and say, all right, well let's stop talking about just what you're doing on the traffic side. Let's talk about like where you're sending it. Because now it's a necessity as opposed to just an option. Agree or disagree?
- [13:44]
Ralph Burns
Well, yeah, I mean, you're talking about providing someone with a four course meal when they just wanted a snack. Right. I mean, I love that analogy because everybody can relate to it. But you know, I'm searching for something very specific. I want that very specific thing. You might have it, but you're taking me to a place where I have to find it. Oh no, I'm way too lazy for that. I'm not. I don't want to have to find it. Right. So I know that statistic was staggering and granted it was B2B, but yeah, that 52% of AD traffic still goes to homepages. So again, that's the four course meal you're making me work. I don't like it. I'm not going to do it. I'm going to back out. And then the quality score just starts to drop. So if you think about it, this is why Google is doubling down. Like, it's almost like a parent who has said for like the 15th time and is about to lose their patience because they've said it over and over again and people still aren't getting it. But I think what they're trying to tell us is with AI Max, those warts are going to be even more exposed than they were before. Like you're not going to be able to hide anymore if that's the experience you're delivering. Because this AI Max is going to not only expose those warts, but for those organizations or businesses that have really great funnels, AI Max is going to prep them to the point where if you're not doing it right, you're just going to be irrelevant. And like, like Lauren said, you're just not going to get served.
- [15:18]
Unknown Guest
I think it goes back to like Ralph, you were saying how a lot of the big brands want you to stay on app. Like, I think that was true. I would counter that it's now in this like AI slop ecosystem. I think most of the brands are trying to get you to trust them as a returnable resource. So if you're using Google and every time you do a Google search and you're landing on an irrelevant page, you're stuck. You're not continue to use that search engine to find what you're looking for and you're going to go to ChatGPT, you're going to go to TikTok or some other space. Similarly, if like you're running ads on Facebook, they know that we're sending traffic off platform. But meta, like I see all the time when we do audits for campaigns, we see that ads get rejected so often because the landing page is incongruent. And we, like from the meta side, have to constantly evaluate what's on the landing page because we have found time and time again in case studies like there's language on the landing page that makes the whole ad account get banned. Talking to you health and wellness folks, especially you supplement people. We've had to create micro sites specifically because the landing page experience on meta has been so emphasized for the last few years. But I think in this like AI slop environment where you're just surrounded by the wrong answers, it's making sure that I can trust that if I'm looking for an answer, I'm going to have a good experience. Experience. And so Google, especially with AI Max, is saying, well, part of that experience is that final URL destination we're sending them to and if it's bad, you're going to ruin our reputation. So I'm rather not have my reputation, the people, my clients that are on Google have a bad experience because of you. Therefore I'm going to decrease your impression, share or eliminate you from being seen at all.
- [16:56]
Val Riley
And Google doesn't care. Like they're making billions no matter what. I mean, like they can just raise CPMs on everybody else. Like they don't really care. Like just because you want to pay them doesn't mean that they're necessarily going to take your money if it's a bad Experience. And I mean we use the example with Taz, like all the like software pages that she sends to a revolutionize Best in class us, like those are like horrible pages and it's you just like take just a little bit of time and say, well what's the user actually going to experience once they click the ad? Is it I'm looking for red shoes and you send them to addresses page. Like, I mean come on people like let's like those.
- [17:36]
Unknown Guest
I get so mad we yell at.
- [17:40]
Val Riley
Well we joke about it but it's so true. It happens so often and hopefully people of this show don't do that. But just saying people who don't listen to perpetual traffic because these guys are super smart that we're talking to right now. The point is like this is a necessity.
- [17:55]
Unknown Guest
I would almost argue it's more of a necessity because like when you're talking about you're searching for red shoes and you get dresses. I think again how AI has like drastically changed how we interact online is that we don't have short and long form keywords anymore. Like we're looking for red boots to wear at a Texas wedding in April. So we're having conversations in our search. And that expanded search is giving more specific intent and relevance demands on the pages that Google's going to serve up to someone for that solution. So it's getting like you were saying earlier about like the intent is there and the personalization of that relevancy is going to be an almost unfair advantage for anyone that is setting up the user for the best experience in that space. And so when you're building your ad campaigns and making sure that you're having the best experience with everything, most time it's like cost ineffective to do customized pages and all that we've seen like with a task or a template even like I'm really excited you're going to share the E Commerce template, share the screen because there's stuff where it's like you can drag and drop and you can remove the burden of operations so that you can have that unfair advantage for however long a max AI Max works for Google until it becomes like, like pmax just becomes cluttered. Hopefully that's not the case, but this is like a huge update for anyone that's like listening to this. If you can put together those resources, I think Google's going to reward you tenfold.
- [19:23]
Val Riley
Yeah, I mean we'll see. How am I easy for me to say AI Max actually bears out here because we'll obviously be testing it and Talking about it in advance of that, regardless of it, there's an opportunity, I think, for marketers just in general to shift their thinking away from just pure product pages. Especially one of the examples that we were talking about before we hit record here today is in the e commerce space. And yes, you work at Unbounce. Yes, we use Unbounce. Yes, you have paid for advertising and perpetual traffic for Unbounce. But the reason is because this is a hidden need that a lot of people don't really do. And I think even showing some examples of some of the templates that you have, Taz will be so excited if we show her Taz Bober template. I can't wait to see it. But before we, before we even show it, like, this is not something that you need to do for a thousand SKUs. Like if you have. And I was just using this example before you hit record here today we have a client that has about 30 SKUs. Had 100. It was about 30 SKUs. We're like, well, what's your best selling product? Okay, with the highest profit margin that you don't have any sort of supply chain issues with. Like, if we sell it out, what are those three things? And pick that. So they had about three products and it turned out to be one in the gun niche specifically. And then we created a whole campaign around that. The business went from 3 million to just about 9 million. Now it's like 8.7 and like in nine months because they focused on one product. And you know what they did? They created a landing page for that product.
- [21:02]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Hey, you know, when I was first at a consultant actually doing the stuff.
- [21:05]
Val Riley
That we're doing right now in Tier.
- [21:06]
Lauren E. Petrulo
11, one of the first tools that.
- [21:09]
Val Riley
I learned how to use was from a company called Unbounce.
- [21:12]
Lauren E. Petrulo
And they are now a sponsor of Perpetual Traffic. And the reason is, is that their landing pages and how quickly you can create those landing pages without having to consult your designer, your developer. With drag and drop builders now built in AI copywriting, it's even better than when it was 10 years ago when I first using it on my own to create my very first landing pages. These guys are absolutely amazing. They've got conversion optimized templates giving you everything you need to launch your pages on your own without developers. In fact, Unbounce is the leading landing page platform for building, testing and optimizing high converting pages powered by data from over 2 billion conversions. That is 2 billion conversions with a B. That means they know what converts. So if you want to convert more customers, one platform and launch pages fast. Unbounce is offering PT listeners a special offer. They are giving you the PT listeners 10% off when you enter coupon code PT10OFF over at unbounce.com forward/pt. So head on over to unbounce.com forward slash PT. Enter code PT10OFF and cash in today. Convert more customers to one platform, launch pages fast. You shouldn't have to wait for your designers and developers to build and test your landing pages. Get started with Unbounce today.
- [22:38]
Ralph Burns
There's so much strategy here. Obviously, Unbounce, we have customers in all verticals, but E commerce is a huge one for us and you can sort by templates for E commerce. So the one issue, or maybe misstep we see folks make is if you're in E commerce and you're running an ad, I'll take Lauren's example of the red boots, right, that you're concerned, right? You have red boots on your website, but you also have boots of all different colors and styles. And so you want to send them to that product page on your website because you don't want to miss out on the. You may also like, right? If they say, oh, I don't really like these and they back out now, they're gone. But I think the mistake people make is that you can use a landing page and still have that experience, right? So maybe this is a template that we have available, Shopify enabled. So like, and we also, all of our templates are optimized for conversion. So, like, you don't have to worry about that stuff. They're optimized for mobile. We've taken care of that all, all of that for you. But here's a great example where you can have this product and then you can have maybe the. You may also like, maybe you have, you pick your top five or six SKUs in your example, Ralph, it was just one SKU. Maybe you do this for like your top five or six SKUs. You provide navigation between those products, right? So you can mix and match in that little ecosystem of landing pages that you have. Then you get the conversion, right? So this is your most expensive conversion. Hopefully that person's gonna buy from you repeatedly, right? But then at that point they've converted, right? You have their contact information, you hit them by sms, you can hit them by email, you can retarget them. Like, all of those conversions are a lot cheaper. This is the most expensive one. You're going to get this one conversion and then you're going to get the less expensive conversions down the line, which is really what you're looking for. Right. That's how you make the most out of those conversions and start getting repeated business without having to spend. In your example, that $800 click.
- [24:47]
Val Riley
Right. So for those of you listening, because I know a lot of people like you who listen when you go to the gym. Is that very cool.
- [24:55]
Unknown Guest
Work out your muscles. Work out your marketing brain.
- [24:57]
Ralph Burns
That's right, Exactly.
- [24:58]
Val Riley
I actually don't listen to myself at the gym. I listen to like heavy metal. But anyway, so I listen to Lauren anyway. It just gets me.
- [25:05]
Unknown Guest
Wait, did you just make it sound like my voice is the same sound as heavy metal music?
- [25:10]
Ralph Burns
That's what I heard.
- [25:11]
Val Riley
Yeah. It's pretty much you and Metallica. Pretty much the same thing. Anyway, get on over to our perpetual traffic YouTube channel so you can actually see this. Because the majority of you out there who are super smart marketers, because you listen to the show, you don't realize that this is actually there. And the question is, do you want to send traffic to just a generic page or do you want to create a landing page? Which is easy to do and we'll show you why here. But head on over to perpetualtraffic.com YouTube subscribe. Obviously. But you knew that, so go ahead, Val.
- [25:41]
Unknown Guest
But it's not just an easy to do Ralph. It's a proven page.
- [25:44]
Val Riley
Correct.
- [25:44]
Unknown Guest
That's got all of this data behind it and it's so conversion centric. Like I built so many custom pages and the time it takes, I'm just like, I'm so mad that I didn't have this solution.
- [25:56]
Ralph Burns
We've done the work for you here. And sometimes people will take them and run with them, which is great, especially startups or companies who are just getting out of the gate. But then sometimes people just use them as inspiration and I'll flip over. We did make a template specific for. I know this is her big moment to shine. So. So she has particular direction for product pages in B2B and she said this is what works. And so we built it. It's available on the Unbounce web page. You can just download it and go and. And so she's outlined here exactly what she feels strongly works in the B2B space. So pre tested for mobile. Pre tested for conversion optimization. So again you don't have to worry about those things if you start with one of these. But many of our clients want to do something custom. They want to create their own. That's great too. Like totally fine.
- [26:51]
Unknown Guest
I just Signed. That was a huge burden because it was like, okay, then we have to get copy and then these approvals and wait a second, on tablet, this shows in a different capacity.
- [26:59]
Ralph Burns
I'm like, well, I will say we have. If you don't want to write the copy too, we've got you covered. We have a smart copy, which is like an AI copywriting feature on Unbounce. So give us your intent and we'll get you a first draft going. So it can really be, I mean, the template, the landing page builder itself is drag and drop, but even the content can be a little bit that way if you need a helping hand to get you out of the gate.
- [27:24]
Unknown Guest
So going back to the Shopify enabled component, is this essentially saying, like, if Canva could be connected to Shopify, this is how you'd build landing pages, where it's just, you have the AI magic wand and then you have your product with the product images already available for where the actual slider is, and then you just Canva play drop and play the way like a third grader could.
- [27:46]
Ralph Burns
I like the third grader analogy. We have a lot of folks who work in Canva and Canva actually allows you to create landing pages right from Canva, which is a designer's dream. But I, as a marketer, I want you to make to do the design in Canva, but I want you to build it in Unbounce, because I know that Unbounce is going to give me the reporting that I need. It's going to allow me to use the features like dynamic insertion. We have smart traffic where you can pick, have the traffic go to the version of the landing page that's most likely to convert for that client. So the artistic folks might want to go straight from Canva to Live, but the marketers want you to go from Canva to Unbounce to Live.
- [28:26]
Val Riley
Yeah, well, plus, like in the Tasbour template, it's also been tested and it wasn't super complex like it was, but it's not a blank slate. Like when you're thinking about, oh, geez, how do I create a landing page? You've got something that's already been tested, not necessarily looks good, looking good and tested and converts is not necessarily the same. I love ugly landing pages that are in brand that convert.
- [28:54]
Unknown Guest
So I love ugly landing pages that make me a pretty penny.
- [28:58]
Val Riley
Yeah, absolutely.
- [28:59]
Ralph Burns
So, and you guys know that tons of agencies use Unbounce, right? So, you know, if you're working with an agency, the agency is probably going to make you a Custom template. Like, that's totally fine if you're a brand just starting out and you want to use templates. You don't know about mobile optimization, you don't know about conversion optimization. Like, we've got your back. So kind of serving both of those audiences. But you know, the beauty of the agency side is that you can like pull down a menu and see like every client that you have and you can flip among clients and do work for multiple clients just with your 1unbounce login. So there's some benefits there, too.
- [29:33]
Val Riley
Very cool. So let's show the. The E commerce one. Now that we've given Taz, like, way too many props here because I know this.
- [29:41]
Unknown Guest
She deserves them all.
- [29:42]
Val Riley
Yeah, I know this episode's gonna end up on her socials all over the place. As long as all those people subscribe to perpetual traffic and start listening. The point is that there's also other templates. That was more of a B2B like she talked about. You know, SaaS obviously is a huge area of need for landing pages. That's like one of the guiltiest parties of sending everything to homepage. Oh, my God, terrible. The point is, like, E Commerce, I think, is an area where I know obviously doing Google Shopping, it's going to be sent to the product page. Fine, that's good. I don't even know if it's even possible to send Google Shopping to a landing page. That's a whole separate discussion. Let's go through some of the E commerce ones here because these are really, really cool. And it also talks about that feature that we all know and we all fall victim to whenever we're on Amazon, is that people who like this also like this other stuff. So let's talk through one of these.
- [30:36]
Ralph Burns
Templates just so you guys know that you can select here, you can select ones with navigation. You can really get super granular, so really easy to do. But yeah, in terms of E commerce, we got this template here again with the. You may also like, so you don't lose folks if they. You kind of keep them in that walled garden, but you are giving them the freedom to select other products.
- [30:59]
Val Riley
Can you scroll up that one just so we can see that? Yeah. Okay. All right, so there's like the brand on the top obviously in the header. Like to your point, with navigation, you need with navigation now, especially if you're sending it on Google. So that's kind of a must.
- [31:15]
Ralph Burns
So anyway, yeah, and like, listen, if I searched red windbreaker, waterproof jacket, etc. Like I'm happy to come to this page. Right. Like, this is going to hit the nail on the head if that's this company's best cue. And that's where they bring people in on this windbreaker like they're killing it. And then again, I can keep them in the ecosystem with this ema also, like, but I'm still not. I'm not giving them the four course meal like we talked about. I'm not throwing them into a website where they might get distracted, they might see other things, they might feel overwhelmed, and then all of a sudden they're not converting, they're, oh, I saw a purse. Oh, I saw a hat. Oh, I saw something else. Now I'm confused. Now I forgot how I even got here. Right. So we're keeping them in this walled garden, but we're getting them to the point that we want to get them to.
- [32:04]
Val Riley
Right. And this is a classic case of cross sells, which is an episode that we are going to do. Lauren. I did a video on it a couple of weeks ago which is, you know, using like McDonald's as the example. Like when you go to McDonald's. I don't go to McDonald's. But anyway, if I did and when I used to like, you get the Big Mac. And then they say the classic cross sell is, would you like fries with that? Of course. So in these examples here, you have to sort of pick your fries to a certain degree. It's like you're spending money on a $75 windbreaker. But I'm chilly in the cold. Not down in Orlando. Lauren. I probably want sauce.
- [32:43]
Unknown Guest
We have two cold days every February.
- [32:45]
Val Riley
Yeah, it gets into like the 60s. Yeah, it's freezing down there.
- [32:48]
Unknown Guest
No, it drops to like 40.
- [32:49]
Val Riley
Oh my God, that's unbelievable. Water freezes at 32. So 40 is nothing.
- [32:55]
Unknown Guest
Yeah. Anyway, you might want 40 degrees Celsius outside right now. So.
- [32:58]
Val Riley
Well, you can get some socks here. You can get a socks and a beanie and maybe a performance sweater. The point is, like these are add ons go along with the product itself. My question to you is for marketers who are looking for that, does Unbounds do any sort of AI that will be able to choose like these also? You may also like. Or is that something that the business owner typically will have to do?
- [33:26]
Ralph Burns
So you'll have to choose the. You may also like here. Our recommendation would be again, like maybe you have five to six pages like this that are all interrelated so that you're again keeping people within that walled garden. With the products that you likely have the best profit margin on, but the products that you're most likely to get that first conversion on. Right? So if you think through that lens, if you've got 100 products or a thousand products, I'm not saying you need to build a landing page for each one, that's just not, it's just not practical. But if you have the products that the five or six products that usually you bring people in on, that's what I'm saying. Build those landing pages, make them super specific, make them walled gardens, keep them within your ecosystem. Get that conversion. And then those subsequent conversions, once you have their email and you're doing a special, once you have their text and their phone number and you can text them, those are the conversions that are the cheaper conversions, the second conversion, the third, the fourth, etc. Then you put them in your referral program. Right now you're moving lots of units, but they're not as expensive as this click is going to be. Because listen, we all know these clicks are expensive. Expensive, yeah. Right. So this is a way you can bring people in on your best performing skus, really get the focus on the conversion and then move towards those less expensive conversions. You've got them in your funnel, so it can really be a strong tactic in E commerce. So we're saying, yeah, maybe you got to build five or six landing pages, don't send them to that product page on your website where you have a hundred or a thousand things. It's just a little too overwhelming. And relating it back to Google, Google doesn't want to see that back button hit. So if you can keep them and make them move amongst pages within this little mini ecosystem you're created and you get that conversion, well, your score is going to rise. And that's what we all want. Right. That's going to make our subsequent clicks cheaper and get us served up more and more.
- [35:28]
Val Riley
Yep.
- [35:29]
Unknown Guest
When does. So just to clarify, you're saying like on the screen, what we're looking at is you've got your windbreaker and then you may also like us a sweatshirt, the beanie and thin socks. So you're saying the thin socks. My lift is coming out the thin socks and the beanie. Those pages are also done in a similar template. So what, you're not going from this product landing page to a product display page. You're going from PLP to PLP to PLP in your. You may also like versus PLP product landing page to PDP product display display page, which is Our typical product.
- [36:04]
Ralph Burns
That's the recommendation, right? So like I said, maybe you've got six of these, maybe you've got maybe as many as 10, but that's it there. These are your best performing products, the ones that maybe you have the best margin on. Maybe not the best margin, but maybe they're the ones that bring people in. It's that first purchase, the one purchase that that makes them a customer. Or maybe you rank order your top 10 products and then you create these 10 landing pages. It's almost like a little ecosystem that you're keeping them in, but really getting the most value out of those clicks.
- [36:38]
Val Riley
Yeah, super important. And there's ways to analyze this too. There's a lot of tools that'll do this, but you can basically go in the back end of your Shopify store and look at all your past orders and run reports. If somebody is buying the men's performance anorak, which I guess means windbreaker, do those people also buy. So you can look at actual user behavior that's in the back end of your Shopify store too. Like just basic little things like that. Like don't guess, look at the data and then to your point, create PLPs, not PDPs for all of those additional products. I suppose you could, to really hack it, just do one page and then the people also like go to PDPs. But in an ideal world, that's one of the beauties of unbalance, is that you're not paying by the page. Like you get the thing and then you can create as many as you want. That data probably exists somewhere in your business. So don't take a guess. And I'm kind of stating the obvious, but that's what I'm sort of known for is stating the obvious. Because people don't do the obvious in many cases. Val, because this is killer.
- [37:42]
Ralph Burns
It's a work on the front end, right? It's a little bit of work. Is it easier to just send everybody to a product page? Yeah, it's easier. But I think you're going to see your cost per click sustain. Like your cost per. Your advertising costs, right? Like are just gonna plateau then. But if you can, like I said, get that second, third, fourth sale by cheaper methods like SMS or email or you're running a flash sale or whatever, like that's where you really see your revenue, your profit margins really go up when you're spending less on Google. Right? Like that's, that's kind of the goal.
- [38:22]
Val Riley
Well, think about it this way. If you're Spending money on Google and obviously it is not cheap, especially in particular cases. I was talking to a cleaning company the other day. They basically competing against Blue Land. I'm like, don't even bother with pay per click. You're competing against the procter and gambles of the world that can spend stupid money. You need a better way in which to do it. But let's say they did that click is so expensive, the cost to acquire that customer is going to be almost cost prohibitive unless you have a higher NAOV or a higher aov, which is what we're talking about here. It's like you want this thing, but then increase your AOV by having additional clients or additional products. Maybe it's one, maybe it's two, maybe it's three. The point is you can then afford to pay more to acquire a customer on the front end and beat out the competition. As our friend Ryan Dice, who I guess is retired from marketing now, which is total BS by the way. Lauren, he said anyone, the person who is willing and or able to pay more to acquire a customer ultimately wins. Yeah. In a competitive marketplace especially. So this doesn't just become. I guess we're reiterating the same point. This is not like an optional thing. Like you need to do this and if you want to be more profitable, let's say you're in a space where you're not really. It's not really all that competitive. Well, you want to be able to make more money and increase that AOV that any of the new average order value and then ultimately lifetime value and then that's how you grow a business.
- [39:54]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, I mean, speaking of competitive categories, I compete in the CRM category, which is the granddaddy of them all. It's the most expensive. I mean what Salesforce can afford to pay for a click could probably feed a family of four for a month. So we have to find other ways to compete. We have to compete on long tail keywords. We have to have perfect funnels just to be in the ball game. Because you're right there. We, we also compete with HubSpot. Like these are not small players with.
- [40:26]
Unknown Guest
Small budgets with like platinum diamond Black, Amex extreme daily budgets.
- [40:34]
Ralph Burns
Now I will say getting your unbounce leads into a CRM is easiest when you send those unbounce leads to Insightly CRM. So it's a little plug there, but it's the best experience that amongst all of them. But yeah, it's competitive categories are what keep marketers up at night.
- [40:52]
Val Riley
It is. Well, it's somewhere between 1000 and 2500. Oh actually no, I'm looking for CPCS here. Between anywhere between 100 and $500 a click easy, if not more so like if you're. Yeah. For CRMs. So I mean if you're paying more like it's just. It's crazy. Like this now becomes so much more essential in everything that you're doing. Depending on what your market is.
- [41:18]
Ralph Burns
I will tell you, a click for Landing page Builder isn't that much different. So yeah, it's a pretty. It's a competitive space as well. The benefit is that Unbounce is the category leader in somewhat synonymous with landing pages. And that's because of all the brand work of all the great marketers that came before me. So it's like wearing two hats sometimes. On the one hand I'm a marketer for a category leader that just has to make the category bigger and then everybody wins. And on the other hand, I'm the marketer for a CRM that is in an extremely crowded space and is a challenger brand. So it's context switching all day between the two of them really.
- [41:53]
Val Riley
Well, very cool. So there's a ton of other templates that are in there. We just showed like the TAZBE over one. We should E Commerce. Any others. Any other spaces that you particularly like that you see typically will send to a homepage and an area where you all are seeing some growth inside Unbounce. Like with the data. I mean obviously you're collecting data on this. So it's like what are the ones that you really see that people get the biggest lift from? And maybe another area of need. E Comm. Definitely one of them. I see that all the time. What else?
- [42:31]
Unknown Guest
For sure.
- [42:31]
Ralph Burns
Yeah. So the with navigation is a new category that we've added based on the work that we've done with TAs. Right. So if you're, if you heard Taz's episode or you've read the Google announcement or you're hearing my voice and you're like, okay, we need to add navigation to our landing pages. We've got you covered. You can just sort here and pick all the ones with navigation. Health and wellness is a big category for us, so we've got quite a few in that area. And the travel and hospitality is a growing area for us too. So we let people pick by industry. But hey, if you see one and if you're in travel and hospitality and you see one in education or automotive that you like, hey, knock yourself out. They're All. They're all optimized for conversion, they're all optimized for mobile. So we're getting you off in the right direction regardless of what you pick. So, yeah, so many options here. And we add new templates every month, so we just did a. Yep, we just did a big batch. We've launched about a hundred in the last couple of months and now we're committing every month there's going to be 10 new ones and we look and see what people choose. If it's not popular or it's not being selected, then we're going to pull it down, we're going to retool it and we're going to reissue it based on user stats. So we're learning from everybody who uses Unbounce every day. We're learning what you're picking and we're weeding those out and we're bringing new ones up to match the preferences of the users.
- [43:55]
Val Riley
Very cool. Can you click on the legal one? I'm just curious. Curious. I didn't click on that one.
- [44:00]
Ralph Burns
Let's see.
- [44:01]
Val Riley
Do a little demo here. Perpetualtraffic.com forward/YouTube. Yeah, yeah. These are some of the bigger offenders that I've seen.
- [44:08]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, we're especially. We're taking control of our legacy. We're getting justice. We got the very classy law firm look here. So, yeah, I mean, just again, just different options to get you out of the gate. Or if you already have an idea of what you have in mind, you can pull one of these down, you can work with them, or you go to your designer or your agency and say, hey, I really like this one, but I want it to be more for us. And then your agency kind of works from there. All different options.
- [44:35]
Val Riley
Got it. Last question for you. Like, what's the big takeaway here? Like, is it the obvious one that we beat to death with Taz, or is there something more here?
- [44:46]
Ralph Burns
I think the lesson is that the warts are going to start showing if you don't have really great funnels per campaign or per ad. So you're going to run the risk of not being served. So I think every marketer who can hear our voices needs to really think about every funnel they have. What does the ad look like? What does the landing page experience look like? How is it converting? How is it doing? And be super critical, because with AI Max, essentially it's going to get even harder to get conversions if you don't have your funnels really tight and have a really good user experience, it's Just.
- [45:26]
Unknown Guest
Going to get harder after the click is going to matter more than ever. And with the way all the different platforms are going to remove all the button pushing and the ad creation itself, the only thing you then can control is your offer, your tracking and the destination that you're sending your ads to. So fix the warts.
- [45:48]
Ralph Burns
That's what I'm telling people. Fix them now.
- [45:51]
Unknown Guest
But this is like a planter wart. This thing is like deep in there because, man, there's a lot of people listening that have websites that you're just sending traffic to. What's easiest versus what's relevant and best for the user. So, whoa, it's coming.
- [46:07]
Val Riley
That's right. So go to the dermatologist. The dermatologist we go to is in bounce, but you can choose your own. But at the very least, it's been great having you on here today. Where can people connect with you? And obviously with Unbounce, we'd love folks.
- [46:21]
Ralph Burns
To follow unbounce on LinkedIn, where every time there's announcements or changes to the industry as the category leader, we're going to get you all that information. So it's a really good follow unbounce on LinkedIn and I'm Valerie Riley on LinkedIn, so I'd love to follow there too. We have a podcast for Go to Market Leaders called Closing Time and so love to see you on that and just get tips every week for Go to Market Leaders.
- [46:45]
Val Riley
Very cool. We will leave links in the show notes for all of that. Super great to have you on here. We've learned a lot. Hopefully the Perpetual Traffic listener has learned a lot. And there's like some simple things you can do here. Literally. Like, we're not talking about days and days of effort and just taking little steps in this direction. You're going to see the lift, I guarantee you.
- [47:06]
Unknown Guest
So, I mean, I literally kept muting myself to like, send my team, like, hey, please look at this page. Please look at this template. Please can we do this and tell me how long it would take for you to do. Because I know how long it's taken for us to do the custom pages before. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. So if you see me on mute, I'm like, give this to them.
- [47:22]
Val Riley
Custom pages are a pain in the ass. Like, they really are like that. I mean, if you really know what you're doing and you've got experience, but it's like, if you have an easy button here, we've got a solution for you. So, anyway, appreciate you coming on here today. Of course, we will leave links in the show notes over@perpetualtraffic.com for everything that we mentioned here. And wherever you listen to podcasts, make sure you leave a rating and review. Val's been a long time listener. You could even leave us a rating and review. And look what I got you here. You got on Perpetual Traffic as a result of you listening. So very cool to have you on here today. Like I said, everything's over@petpetual traffic.com and if you want to do watch this, that's perpetualtraffic.com forward/YouTube. You can see the screen share that. We talked about some of the templates that we went through. So very cool stuff. So on behalf of my amazing co host, Lauren Petrulo, till next show. See ya.
- [48:23]
Ralph Burns
You've been listening to Perpetual Traffic.