Flip the Script: A Masterclass on Pitching Anything With Oren Klaff

Summary

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Perpetual Traffic – Episode Summary

Episode Overview

Episode Title: Flip the Script: A Masterclass on Pitching Anything With Oren Klaff
Hosts: Ralph Burns (Tier 11) and Lauren Petrulo (Mongoose Media)
Guest: Oren Klaff (author, Pitch Anything & Flip the Script)
Date: September 16, 2025

This episode features a powerhouse conversation with master pitchman Oren Klaff. Famed for his bestselling books "Pitch Anything" and "Flip the Script," Klaff dives deep into the often counterintuitive art of sales, persuasion, and high-stakes dealmaking. The discussion explores how marketers and salespeople can radically shift their mindset, achieve higher status in deals, and reliably "flip the script" so buyers chase them—rather than the other way around.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Status Matters in Sales ([00:00] - [09:10])

• Oren opens bluntly: "You cannot sell to someone from the low status position. Does not work. Stop fucking saying please. And thank you so much." ([00:00])
• Ralph frames the topic: Most marketers have the technical chops but struggle with genuine sales skills, especially when the stakes are high—selling not just products, but ideas and themselves. ([01:01])
• Oren illustrates how true, transformative sales thinking comes from both personal experience and owning your unique perspective (“There’s not 13 yous...there’s one.” [05:13])
• Anecdote: The "lose my number" deal—Oren describes how a single act of non-neediness by his colleague instantly closed a multi-million dollar deal, proving that neediness kills deals ([07:00]).

2. Neediness Kills Deals – Showing Strong Stance ([09:10] - [16:00])

• Ralph highlights how difficult it is for salespeople to lose neediness, even when they intellectually understand its importance.
• Oren: “Stop fucking saying please and thank you so much... Those words are supplication… the prospect knows they have the high status position.” ([11:11])
• Status is continually asserted in micro-moments—like showing gratitude or apologizing excessively—which can betray the seller's lower status.
• Lauren observes: “For my ego's perspective, for someone to admit they were wrong, I'm like, just apologize!”
  Oren reiterates: “Those words are supplication...and when you say please, thank you and I'm sorry, the client knows.” ([12:29])

3. Managing Power Dynamics in High-Stakes Meetings ([13:27] - [19:00])

• Oren outlines practical ways to flip the status dynamic:
  • Example: When buyers are late to a call, “Hey, are you here for the 12:35 meeting? The 12:30 is just wrapping up.” ([14:24])
  • This subtle but powerful cue often prompts the buyer to apologize—rebalancing status.
• Oren explains: “You are taking a very, very, very high status person and you are reducing their status to below yours… Not to hurt, but so they listen to you.” ([16:58])
• The mechanics of status: Higher-status individuals listen less, discount advice, and take risks with you; sales success depends on re-aligning this dynamic.

4. Framing, Boundaries, and Value Systems ([19:00] - [24:29])

• “If there is a perception you don’t stand for anything other than money, you will occupy the low status position and sell from discounts.” ([18:07])
• Sellers must identify and own their core beliefs—those become their boundaries and the foundation for high-status positioning.
• When buyers issue classic big-company demands (e.g., "We’re Microsoft, we want 15% off"), Oren calls out the absurdity: “Why would a $128 billion company want a discount from a nine-person shop?” ([21:23])
• The “final boss” phenomenon: A new person appears late in the negotiation with a demand for last-minute concessions. Oren counters with directness and clarity about acceptable behaviors.

5. Consequences, Assertiveness, and “Small Acts of Defiance” ([26:05] - [35:28])

• Oren stresses the necessity of consequences in sales interactions: “There have to be consequences on the call. If there are no consequences, it's not a sales call, it's an exchange of information.” ([30:11])
• Tactics for drawing boundaries assertively (without being combative):
  • Downgrade the prospect’s access by handing them off to a junior associate (Cassandra) as a way to signify loss of privilege/status ([31:04]).
  • Make clear that you will “not work harder on your business than you will.”
• Analogy: Oren likens client problem-solving to Navy SEAL training—a “heavy log” (the client’s business) must be carried by all, not just the service provider. ([33:03])
• Notable quote: “You aren’t giving me anything except hard work and problems. But this is what we do... But you have to be committed to solving [the problem]. I will not work harder in your business than you will.” ([33:30])

6. Accountability and Attractiveness through Non-Neediness ([35:28] - [40:34])

• Bad customers are more costly than no customers at all; boundaries also protect you from the wrong clients.
• The paradox: “There’s no risk to being non-needy… you’re just saying, I have a boundary which I do not go beyond.” ([39:52])
• Real authority comes from calmly, confidently flagging bad behavior, and being willing to walk away when it’s not a fit.

7. Merging the Frameworks: Pitch Anything & Flip the Script ([40:34] - [43:55])

• Ralph notes the practical value of merging both books: Pitch Anything lays the foundation for status and framing; Flip the Script offers the mechanics for letting the buyer feel in control—so they persuade themselves.
• Oren’s analogy: “Pitch Anything is like opening up Narnia… Flip the Script is how to survive and win when you’re in there.” ([42:20])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Status, Neediness & Boundaries

• Oren Klaff [00:00; 11:11]: “You cannot sell to someone from the low status position. Does not work. Stop fucking saying please. And thank you so much.”
• Oren Klaff [12:43]: “And those words [please, thank you, sorry] are supplication. When you say [them] to a sales prospect, they know they have the high status position in the relationship.”
• Oren Klaff [16:58]: “You have got to lower somebody's status down to yours or below yours just so they can listen to you.”

Framing & Counterintuitive Tactics

• Oren Klaff [14:24]: “Hey, Ralph, are you here for the 12:35 meeting? Because the 12:30 meeting is just starting to get going and might even wrap up.”
• Ralph Burns [15:32]: “Small acts of defiance.”
• Oren Klaff [30:11]: “There has to be consequences on the call... Otherwise, it’s just an exchange of information.”

Value, Boundaries, and Walking Away

• Oren Klaff [33:30]: “You aren’t giving me anything except hard work and problems. But this is what we do... I will not work harder in your business than you will.”
• Oren Klaff [39:52]: “There's no risk to being non-needy because you're just saying, I have a boundary which I do not go beyond.”

Book Frameworks

• Oren Klaff [42:20]: “Pitch Anything is like when people read it… it's like you go to your closet...and a door opens… there's Narnia back there. Flip the Script is how to survive in that world.”

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 00:00-09:10: Setting the tone—status, self-worth, and the death of neediness in sales
• 09:10-13:21: The hard road of losing neediness and actionable tips to begin changing
• 13:21-16:36: Power games in meetings and retraining buyers’ expectations
• 16:36-20:26: Framing technique and rationale; the neurobiology of status
• 20:26-24:29: Boundaries, values, and how to say “no” to ridiculous prospect behaviors
• 30:11-35:28: The necessity of consequences, escalation, and not solving clients’ problems more than they will
• 40:34-43:55: Interplay and practical uses of Pitch Anything and Flip the Script frameworks

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Final Thoughts & How to Connect

If you’re a marketer, salesperson, or entrepreneur looking to sharpen your persuasion game and take back control in deal-making, this episode delivers hard-won wisdom and unvarnished tactics straight from the master. Oren recommends checking out orenklaff.com for ongoing advice and resources—no pitch, just real strategies.

Oren Klaff: “The information is free. I don’t sell anything. I don’t have a course. I just give it all, try and help people.” ([44:37])

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For anyone serious about next-level sales strategy, both "Pitch Anything" and "Flip the Script" are essential reading—a recurring theme throughout this masterclass episode.

Transcript

[Oren Klaff]

You cannot sell to someone from the low status position. Does not work. Stop fucking saying please. And thank you so much.

[Ralph Burns]

Maybe just give the folks sort of an overview of what I feel is an incredibly solid and effective persuasion strategy.

[Oren Klaff]

Where all the tactics stem from is you have to have one.

[Ralph Burns]

You're listening to Perpetual Traffic. Focus on marketing strategy, not marketing setup. ActiveCampaigns AI agents orchestrate your marketing for you with intelligent next steps, personalized content on demand and goal aware reporting that tracks every single win. So you can turn your ideas into revenue across email, SMS and WhatsApp without the heavy lifting. Try it for free [e-mail] hello and welcome to the Perpetual Traffic podcast. This is your host, Ralph burns, founder and CEO of Tier 11, alongside my amazing co host, Lauren E. Petrulo, the.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Founder of Mongoose Media.

[Ralph Burns]

So glad you joined us here today. And if you are a VP of marketing, director of marketing, cmo, somebody who's doing your digital marketing or just a doer of digital marketing, today's show is for you because you probably know how to market if you've listened to 700 plus episodes of the show here, but you probably don't know how to sell as well as you probably could. And that is not necessarily selling products, that's also selling ideas. My dad once said this. He was an artist, by the way. Lauren, he said, you know, it's really important to know how to sell because really in life you are selling everything from your ideas to your products to how you win an argument, et cetera, et cetera. So it's a skill you should learn. And when I came out of college, because I had basically just a marketing background and no contacts, I got into sales and ever since then I've been learning how to perfect it. And this guy's book, which I read, who was on today's show, I can't believe we got him to come on and literally. No, no, you're a friend of Scott degrasse, which I can't believe. You know, we have that sort of common connection here. We have got, I think I hate to say it because I've read so many sales books.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

You gotta sell it now. You have no choice.

[Ralph Burns]

Pitch Anything is like the best sales book I've ever read. I mean, I don't know. I'm gonna piss off Tom Hopkins, who I did, you know, learn how to sell through him, but he's now come out with another book called Flip the Script. Got him here on Perpetual traffic here today. So this is a real treat for us. Welcome to Perpetual Traffic. Oren Klaff.

[Oren Klaff]

Hey. Thank you. Thank you, Ralph and Lauren. I appreciate being here and what a warm welcome. Let's make it. The welcomes are nice. At the beginning of the show. Let's see if you could say the same thing in 45 minutes.

[Ralph Burns]

Well, the thing that you, like I was asking you before, like, how do you want to be introduced? Because you're a bestselling author for two books but you know, you've raised $400 million. I can't talk about half of the.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Things he listed on his resume for that one, but okay, that's true.

[Ralph Burns]

But you manage money for 400 famil, which is something to be proud of. Like, that's an amazing achievement unto itself. The books are probably what we're going to be talking about here today because probably that those skills helped raise the funds in order to help all those 400 families. And you've read, you've written two books, obviously, Pitch anything, which we'll leave links in the show notes. If you haven't read this, you got to read it or listen to it on audio and then you just came out with a new book. Flip the script recently and maybe just give the folks sort of an overview of what the whole idea behind Pitch Anything is. And then maybe we can talk about the second book and then how they kind of merge together and how those ideas really help formulate what I feel is an incredibly solid and effective persuasion strategy. I would say, I wouldn't even say it's like a sales tactic because we're not talking about spin selling here. It's a way to persuade and to sort of control the conversation. And I think these books do a tremendous job with it. So maybe just give us an overview of Pitch Anything to start.

[Oren Klaff]

I think it's important to sort of understand what an author is to when you go to pick up and read a book. You know, I look at sales guys who, you know, have 17 books or 13 books or eight books. When I was writing Pitch Anything, I had a very good, well known friend of mine, well known screenwriter, wrote Collateral Damage, who wrote the Hunted with Nagasaki Deadline, you know, wrote movies you would have seen in the theater. What happens is when you get a boat contract, you talk to your friends, you go on podcasts, you, you know, you sort of make outlines and eventually your agent calls and she goes, can I see chapter one and two? You're like, and then can you start writing chapter one I two? You send in and they're like, this is not that, you know, we want a book, not a white paper or some random thoughts.

[Ralph Burns]

So.

[Oren Klaff]

Right. Just because you can read and just because you can talk does not mean you can write a book. You know, you should ask about that Stephen King. All right, so writing is something different. And so I called on my buddy David Griffith at the time. I said, David, I finally started writing. I wrote 2,000 words today. I'm gonna have the book done by the end of the month. And he goes, oren, that's amazing. You wrote 2,000 words today. I go, yes, David, I swear to God I did. 2008 words. He goes, go back and read them.

[Ralph Burns]

Yeah.

[Oren Klaff]

Writing for real writers, Stephen King, guys who you respond to, who do quality writing is about 150 through. Through the annals of history is about 150 to 250 words a day. You ain't writing 13 books in three years that are real books. So pitch anything is a real book. And one of the issues is a real book has everything in it that is you. This is why it's really hard to write 13 books. Right? You know, if you're, if you're not a professional, right? If you're a sales guy, if you're a marketer, if you're a business guy. There's not 13 use that have come into existence in five years. There's one. So most of the great books. There's one of the movies too. Saw one. Blair Witch Project one. The one where they go to Las Vegas and Mike Tyson. Mike Tyson and they get a tiger.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Oh, the Hangover.

[Oren Klaff]

Hangover. Hangover. Hangover one. Hangover three was not good. Hangover was there.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Hold on. But Rush Hour. Rush Hour had a great trilogy.

[Oren Klaff]

Rush Hour, okay, Rush Hour, exception to the rule. I don't have a time machine that goes back that far. I'm just kind of talking about the modern era, but the Pleistocene age, post dinosaurs shots. A creative endeavor encompasses all of you, right? And, and that's why these, the books that you love. Tom Hopkins, you know, book which you mentioned, the sales books, the marketing books. There's one of that's great is because it has everything that's in the life of that person. And that person doesn't have two lives now. They will get a second life, which I wrote about and flipped the script in, you know, 10 years later, after having, you know, number one book for 10 years, a lot of things changed, got deeper, got richer, new insights. But you know, you want to look at that author and what did they really put into the book? And why did they get into writing a book? I had an inflection point that led me to this. The guy wrote about in the book, who I called Jonathan, is a real guy. I didn't write about this at all. We were in a deal and I needed the closing fee on it. The guys that we were selling the deal to were being very difficult, right? And they kept asking questions and wanting more information and not closing. And it was a couple million dollar wire. So back then, it was before Gmail, you just had Microsoft and it would ding when your email rang. The ding, right? And we're tracking this deal, we're trying to close it. I really need the commission. Jonathan sent an email to everybody. 15 people copied on it. The subject line, all caps three words, lose my number in the middle of a deal. And where I came from, like, nobody talks to anybody like that. I came from. My dad was a college professor. Both my parents are academics. I went to, you know, very conservative institutions and I worked in very conservative banks. So it all caps emailed to 15 people in the middle of a deal. It says, lose my number is like, this is done right? There's no reality in which this is moving another millimeter down the road. And then ping, ping, ping, ping, ping. And I'm expecting all the fu. Deal done. And all I start seeing is, we're sorry, sorry, Jonathan didn't mean to be. And the deal closed 10 minutes later. And I said, I said, what alternate universe am I in? And then I started noticing that, you know, he had the ability to really never be needy. And what I learned there is neediness kills deals. So how can you both be selling somebody and needing something and wanting something and needing the commission or needing the traffic or needing the relationship and at the same time wanting it, loving it, being enamored with it, desiring it, and fundamentally in your DNA, maybe economically actually needing it, but not needing it at all. And living in that space became the meaning of my life. Learning how to live in that gray area with wanting something with my heart and desire and mind more than anything else, but not wanting it at all.

[Ralph Burns]

I think that's the hardest part of, of sales, in my opinion, because you always want the sale. But if you come across, and I remember just coming across that concept and pitch anything and then obviously, and it, it shows up and flip the script as well is like that idea. And then trying to teach that to like my sales teams. And it's the hardest thing. And you gave an example and flip the script where you go out to North Dakota and you try and teach people how to do this for. I forget the name of the. It's like a motor. Like a cool motorcycle.

[Oren Klaff]

Star. Real company. Yeah, GP star.

[Ralph Burns]

And I was like, how the hell. And you didn't really say, like, how you did it. They just started selling more. I'm like, how did he find. Figure out how to do that? And that's. Everybody's been in this situation where it's like, you know, so what do you think? You know, like, trial closes always be closing. Like all of that sort of bull crap that we learned in sales school. It's like. It's the opposite is true. And I'm teaching my sales teams now in my own business how to do it. And they're like, I'm amazed that this actually works, but then they fall back into these same old traps. Like, how do you do that? Because that's like a theme throughout both books, which I think is super important to comprehend.

[Oren Klaff]

I think there's a 101, you know, just like college, there's a 101, a 102, a 103, a 201, and then graduate level work. So maybe I can give you some insight onto, you know, the various levels. You know, I've taught 80,000 people from stage these couple of techniques. So I know, because they'll come back the next day or that afternoon and they go, I just closed a $300,000 account. I did that yesterday at work. I did it. I got myself respect back. That's greatness, whether make the money, close deals or not. But if somebody doesn't have to live in fear of clients and accounts and sales managers and can live knowing that they ended the day with grace, poise, self respect, left it all in the field and let it all work itself out. That, to me, is an amazing gift, and I think it starts here. Stop fucking saying please and thank you so much.

[Ralph Burns]

Mm.

[Oren Klaff]

And I'll tell you why. There's nothing wrong with please and thank you and I'm sorry. I myself say I'm sorry twice a year.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Twice a year, Christmas and your partner's birthday.

[Oren Klaff]

Maybe not that often, but it sounds good on a podcast. I don't want to say. I don't want to say zero. It sounds are.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

You have to apologize for lying. Did we get our one for the year?

[Oren Klaff]

I will say, Lauren, I appreciate how you feel. I can understand that it's miserable. I mean, misery. This is what I will tell sales prospects at this point. Lauren, let me tell you how it all ends. The sun burns out and human civilization goes away. All right, so before that happens, let's try and figure out how we're going to do this together. The reason we got to stop saying please, sorry and thank you is there's nothing wrong with those. You cannot modulate it. So unless you just take it away completely, you're just going to use those fillers for emotional dopamine pings. You get some. The reason you do it is you get something for it. You get attention, please. Thank you. I'm sorry gives you points in, in the game. You know, you're trying to win points, you're trying to win commissions. Right? You're right. Oh, I just got another, you know, I just got another couple points in the game. This call continues.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

I mean, I know it's so true because there are times where I've been like, just, just apologize. Just gosh dang it, like, apologize. Like, I don't understand. Like, it will help you so much more. From my ego's perspective for someone to admit that they were wrong, I'm like, just apologize.

[Oren Klaff]

But yeah, I'm 100% keeping score as young salesperson. Ralph can't modulate those words. And those words are supplication. And when you say please, thank you and I'm sorry to a sales prospect, they know that they have the high status position in a relationship, the power number two. So if that's 101, and I'll give you a way to make that happen. If you get on a call, give me a example of salespeople that you work with and who they get on a call with.

[Ralph Burns]

The habit. I always, first break is, is thank you so much for meeting with us. It's like all, you know, it's the first mistake, I think, you know, thank you so much for taking the time.

[Oren Klaff]

Give me the setup. Who is the salesperson? Who is the client? What are the stakes? What's the size of the deal?

[Ralph Burns]

Average size deal for us is about a quarter of a million dollars a year arriving and it's a sales prospect in the E Commerce niche. And you know, it's a sought after, like beauty brand that probably a lot of agencies are coming after. And the first thing that the salesperson wants to say is, thank you so much for taking the time to meet us.

[Oren Klaff]

Got it. I'm going to fix that right now. That's good. Because good high stakes sale. Who's the buyer? Who's typically on the line?

[Ralph Burns]

It's usually the director of digital, the director of marketing, something like that. So it's not usually the CEO at that level, but it's. Sometimes it can be. They'll bring them in every now and then, but usually, yeah, it's somebody who reports to somebody else for sure.

[Oren Klaff]

Self entitled, high status, feels that they have the control in the relationship, feels like the power in the relationship belongs to them. Right. 19 out of times those guys come to the zoom or the phone call a few minutes late. Fair.

[Ralph Burns]

Absolutely. Every single time.

[Oren Klaff]

Yes.

[Ralph Burns]

Just like I do.

[Oren Klaff]

Except today, 100% of the time I will say, hey, Ralph, are you here for the 12:35 meeting? Because the 12:30 meeting is just starting to get going and might even wrap up.

[Ralph Burns]

Small acts of defiance.

[Oren Klaff]

Are you here for the 12:35 meeting? That's bold.

[Ralph Burns]

That's good.

[Oren Klaff]

So this scares young people to say it where. So unfortunately I go to meetings yesterday. Guys who manage billion dollar funds multiple times. Billionaires, definitely guys worth 20, 30, 40, $150 million. I've helped people sell multiple, multiple companies, you know where they walked away with $30 million. I deal with people who are self enamored, self empowered, feel like they have the alpha position in every deal no matter what. And they always come to calls late and I always go, hey, Jim, you here for the 913 meeting? And, and guess what? They always say always. I'm sorry. Oh God, now it just went backwards. I reversed gravity. Now you're apologizing to me. And this is set up correctly.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

It was your wicked moment defying gravity.

[Oren Klaff]

So that's 101, 102. Stop saying sorry, please stop saying sorry.

[Ralph Burns]

But potentially prompt them to say sorry is sort of the 102.

[Oren Klaff]

Listen, this is why. Because in our culture, everybody understands the value of time. Billionaires understand the value of time. Even if you are the guy doing the valet, they book the valet, you know, for, you know, 3:00pm they show up at 3:05. The valet guy goes, hey, I've been waiting for you. The first thing I'm out say are sorry, I'm sorry. That's our culture. Timeliness is one of the most respected early signals of a having a quality value system that matches in with our Judeo Christian political, social culture that we have here in America. People who don't understand the value of time don't go far in our system. It's just how we work. I don't know how they do it in Scandinavia, I don't know how they do it in Nicaragua. That's how we do it here. As they said in Ironman, it worked pretty good for dad. We're pretty good for me. And that's how the government does it. Introducing the Jericho.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Yeah, but you didn't like the second and third one though, because it was just one out of them.

[Oren Klaff]

Yes.

[Ralph Burns]

By the way, oren is the first guest we've ever had in 700 some odd episodes who was a minute early, as was I. I was three minutes early. But that unto itself, you set the frame. Like, is that the first sort of.

[Oren Klaff]

Step for that is setting the frame?

[Ralph Burns]

Everyone says frame selling. That's what Oren Clough teaches. He teaches frame selling. I'm like, well, okay, what is it?

[Oren Klaff]

Let me take it a little bit further for your guys. So what you're trying to do is you are taking a very, very, very high status person and you are reducing their status to below yours. This is not game theory, although it is game theory. It is not Machiavellian. It is not intended to hurt people or malign people. But here is the reality. If somebody has higher status than you, they have some physical things that happen in your body when you have high status. One, you don't listen well to the low status person that's talking to you. Number two, you take risks with them that you would not take with somebody that is higher status than you. Of course, you know risks. They're not medieval risks, but you know, they will. Oh, hey, sorry. You know. Yeah. Oh, really? No, the ahi pokey is fine. The no, for those listening, you can't.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

See that he's now taking a phone.

[Oren Klaff]

Call, ordering a phone.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Bad fish.

[Ralph Burns]

That's right. Ordering sushi in the middle of a perpetual traffic episode. Yeah. Anyway, but got it.

[Oren Klaff]

When you're trying to get your kid into the Harvard prep school and you're sitting there with the president and the Dean of admissions, right. Your phone is on your. You are the lower status party and your phone is on off.

[Ralph Burns]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

So even in the room, potentially, it's in a bag in the co check.

[Oren Klaff]

If it's not on off, your wife is going to turn it into an underwater phone in the women's bathroom. All right? You are not taking any risk. So when somebody views themselves as having more power than you, higher status than you, they don't listen to you. Well, they will take risks around you and they will discount the things you say, even if you're an expert in it, to where their own opinion on something they know nothing about will have more weight than yours. You have got to lower somebody's status down to yours or below yours just so they can listen to you. You cannot sell to someone from the low status position does not work. And so you've got to bring their status into alignment with yours. Now, there are tactics for doing that, and we can talk about that for an hour, two hours, three hours, nine hours, whatever. But where all the tactics stem from is you have to have one, a value system that you are anchored to. And I think I did write about that in Flip the Script. If there is a perception that you don't stand for anything other than money, you will occupy the low status position and sell from discounts. So I would love for you guys to attend some my calls. You know, I'll be on a $3 million investment, you know, have three guys on the thing. They have their CFO on the call, you know, and he'll be going like this. And I'll go, hey, Matt, Lauren, what do you. They're looking at the phone like, hey, man, what are you doing? Like, we're together for 30 minutes, right? If you don't have time for calls, don't book them. Right. Look at me. I came to this call. I have, you know, I have a $2 million facility, you know, in which I schedule this call. I've got a. I've got an operator, you know, who operates this call. I take this very seriously. If you don't have half an hour. Right. Who are you? I don't know who you people are. Right. How am I going to take $3 million from you? Now, there's the key, Ralph. How am I going to take $3 million from you if I don't know who you are or why you do things? And so you don't. Now, if I asked you, what's your value system? You tell me, like, what do you believe in?

[Ralph Burns]

Me?

[Oren Klaff]

Yeah.

[Ralph Burns]

I believe in all the stuff that I repeat to my kids, which is do the right thing, you know, be a good person, you know, honest, all that sort of stuff.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

I was like, I've got my two.

[Oren Klaff]

This is a setup. You're just going to read me the Bible. Okay.

[Ralph Burns]

Right. No, it's not an answer I would typically give. I would give like the watered down version. Unless we, like, really got into it.

[Oren Klaff]

Yeah, you're just going to. So you, as a young salesperson or a sales manager or somebody wants to sell, not marketing. You have to figure out what you believe in, not what's in the Bible, not, don't bang your neighbor's wife, not, don't, you know, feed your kid chocolate before bed. What do you believe in? And those become your boundaries. And Those boundaries are the safest thing in the world to have honesty about. Because if somebody's outside your boundaries, then you're not going to do a deal with them anyway, for sure. And what I seek in a transaction that raises my status and lowers the other person is when they say weird stuff, which the buyer always will, especially the more experienced you are with buyers in your industry, they will say something weird, right? I'll give you an example. If you're dealing with a big company, they'll ask for a discount. Hey, we're Microsoft, right? You know, hey, we represent a big purchase. You know, we always ask for our vendors. What are you talking about, right? You're saying we're a big company. We have, hold on, let me see. Oh, you have $128 billion in cash, right? We're a nine person company and you're saying that you want a tiny company to give you a discount for no other reason than you can control them, right? And so when you have power, what you do is you exert your control? Is that what you're saying? How would that feel if we have all your data, right? And then you call in on the weekend and we go, hey, we have, we have now we have all the power. You need some data sorting, you know, over the weekend, it's $50,000 out of your account, or you can wait till Tuesday. How would you rate? Why in the world would Microsoft, who has the ability to pay for this, want us to? Because if we discount this, we can't do customer service properly. We can't buy AI properly. We can't, we can't. We set this pricing because we have a gross margin in that. Like this is. If you guys want to do a business deal, let me know. If you just want to stomp around saying, we're Microsoft and we want a discount, let me know. I'll give you another example. It always a case where you see the final boss in a deal. You're doing a negotiation, $250,000 contract, right? Everybody's agreeing to it. You're in the final negotiation. What happens is somebody you never heard of, has not been in any of the meetings, has never been mentioned, it shows up and goes, hey, what's going on here? Like, you know, we do this all the time, but we need a 15% discount in order to go forward with it. The final boss, it's in every video game, but it's also in every negotiation. And so if you have a belief system and a value system that says this is atrocious, to have your executives negotiate for six weeks, eight weeks, 12 weeks on a quarter million dollars, half million dollar thing. Everybody signed off, literally have a docusign circulating and then somebody you've never met before stomp in and go, I can't approve this without getting a discount. And so what I always do, and maybe this is 201, I'll say, hey John, great, you're done, right? So a couple things going on here. One, right, this is just your guys negotiation strategy and it looks like a goofy thing you guys do. You found that it works over time and you just do it, all right, no problem. Great respect. You pull the performance, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It's not going to work here, right? So either, either it's a performance that you guys do and it has worked in the past and you get 15, 20% off for just, you never get. And you're, you guys have a belief system that says you never get anything you don't ask for. So you just come in and ask for it. But I'm just telling you that's goofy. This is the real world.

[Ralph Burns]

Hey, you know, when I was first at a consultant actually doing the stuff that we're doing right now in Tier 11, one of the first tools that I learned how to use was from a company called Unbounce. And they are now a sponsor of Perpetual Traffic. And the reason is, is that their landing pages and how quickly you can create those landing pages without having to consult your designer, your developer. With drag and drop builders now built in AI copywriting, it's even better than when it was 10 years ago when I first started using it on my own to create my very first landing pages. These guys are absolutely amazing. They've got conversion optimized templates giving you everything you need to launch your pages on your own without developers. In fact, Unbounce is the leading landing page platform for building, testing and optimizing high converting pages. Powered by data from over 2 billion conversions. That is 2 billion conversions with a B. That means they know what converts. So if you want to convert more customers one platform and launch pages fast, Unbounce is offering PT listeners a special offer. They are giving you the PT listeners 10% off when you enter coupon code PT10OFF [e-mail] forward SL PT. So head on over to unbounce.com PT, enter code PT10OFF and cash in. Today convert more customers of one platform launch pages fast. You shouldn't have to wait for your designers and your developers to build and Test your landing pages, get started with unbounce today.

[Oren Klaff]

Or there's another option is this is like the real you as a company and yourself. And you guys take up 30, 40 hours of our time. We have a contract going back and forth. We have five people working on this. We've been to seven meetings. We honestly disclose our price, disclose our service. You guys shopped it a little bit. Your executives came together, right? And then the last minute, after all that work has been done, relationship trust, ideas, exposure, risk being put in place. And then you show up at the last minute, right? And. And you, you know, add chaos, disingenuity, and. And break trust. And if that's who you really are, just tell me and we will pack our stuff and you can go use India.com, you know, and get it in China or India, right? Or somewhere else. But that is not how we build a relationship. And these deals don't work with our relationships.

[Ralph Burns]

So many of these books are. It's counterintuitive because in the sales process, I'm just speaking, like, whether you're pitching or whether you're selling, it's like, you. You don't ever want to be the supplicant, but you want to be. Everyone wants to be liked and is so afraid of upsetting the prospect because, oh, if I upset them, then they won't buy, when in fact the opposite is true. It's like, you talk about small acts of defiance, but doing it sort of a snarky way or maybe a humorous way, or, you know, take the moral high ground and stick to it and be like, wait a second, what are you talking about? Like, we have. We have a signed contract. Who's this guy coming in and going 15? Like, calling bullshit when you see it? Like, no salesperson I've ever seen, with the exception of maybe one or two, will actually respond to it the way that most normal humans would. Because, like, the sales interaction is like, in this completely different world almost, where it's like, oh, everybody's just trying to be nice to the other one, and somebody's on the high ground and somebody is on the lower ground, and you're like, completely trying to reverse that in so many different methodologies.

[Oren Klaff]

I may have a solution that'd be difficult to use, but just so you know it exists and you can use it, I will say, in the middle of a sale, you know, or a capital raise, Ralph. And this way, if you've read Pitch anything, this will be very counterintuitive to you. I don't want to scare you let me get all the way through it. Ralph, I love you. This. I love you. This is. You're amazing.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

He's blushing.

[Oren Klaff]

I want to work with you. I want to add you to our Christmas card list. I want to work with you. I hope we get in proximity. If you're like my other customers, we get to know each other a little bit. And sometimes we take vacations together. And I actually am very excited about doing this transaction together. You can have my phone number. You can have my backup phone. You know, you can fax us on the weekend. I love you. For the moment. Unfortunately, because of the nature of our business, I have 37 other Ralphs to get to. But for the moment, we have each other. Right now, we're in embrace, right? And we can make. I'm happy for you to say, because they're trying to book me for another Ralph, but I'm here. I'm focused on what you need. I'm focused on this agreement. I'm working hard right now to make this relationship. No problem. You can say, hey, Oren, your head is full of dead insects. Okay, let me off this call as quickly as possible. Or. Or I feel the same way as you. There's a transaction here, right? We can figure it out with the time we have together. This is a start of something amazing. Let's make it happen. So, Ralph, what should we be doing together?

[Ralph Burns]

I think we should hang out. Really?

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Making something amazing.

[Ralph Burns]

Making something amazing. Should go ride motorcycles together. I'm enamored.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

How dare you leave me out? How dare you leave me out?

[Ralph Burns]

Lauren, I don't even know who she is. So, like, your point is? You can go in either direction.

[Oren Klaff]

You. You have to. It comes back to the same thing Yogi Berra said. When you come to a fork in the road, take it. And this. If we are anywhere on this call for the lost selling souls of the marketing people are trying to get into selling, it is this. There has to be consequences on the call. If there are no consequences. It's not a sales call. It's an exchange of information. It's due diligence. If there are no consequences, right? So for many calls, I will say listen, right? I came here with everything we got together. You've got some timing problems. You have some. All this goofy stuff that you're talking about, right? Are things. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to have you work with Cassandra, okay? She's new here.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Why are you laughing at Cassandra? We. Hold on. She's. She's learning.

[Oren Klaff]

She's new here. She just moved out from intern. Right. She's an associate. She's finding her way around. But. But you ask her for information, she will get you information. You work with Cassandra with all your questions and the stuff you need. When you are ready to get into the big boy sandbox, right, jump back in and let's see if we can get real. All right? We'll figure it out. But in the meantime, Cassandra is going to take care of everything you need. And so now you're taking away the toys. The. Now, if you have framed yourself up as an expert, somebody has access to technology, to a deal, to. To pricing, to everything. You have to be able to take yourself away. But now you don't want to go, hey, I'm not going to talk to you anymore until you get real. You. You. Right? That is the status push. You go down to, you know, Cass, who just moved up from intern to associate. She's going to take care of everything you need. That's where you merit that right? You have. You have been measured, and you measured up to work with an associate. When you want to move up and work with the real guys, come with some game. But right now, you don't have game, and I'm busy. And so you don't lose it, there's consequences. Or, hey, you know, the. The consequences are you don't have to sign the contract. You don't have to get a DocuSign. But what I say, if you're. If it makes sense that we move forward together and work hard to make this thing happen, then let's set up the next call, we'll exchange a little information, and we'll go deeper. Ralph, I will not work harder on your business than you will. I have to see some effort on your side.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Should I just copy and paste that message into, like, past conversations I've had with people where we have to, like, say, like, we cannot be more passionate about growing your business than you are. Like, that's our. Our disclosure where if we're chasing you for this, it will never work. Every time I had a client that didn't work. I wish I could have said that verbatim.

[Oren Klaff]

I don't think. Lauren, I don't think the Navy seals are like a secret training anymore. If you watch a six second video, they get Navy SEALs and they carry a big log. All right? Have you ever seen, like, two Navy SEALs on one side of the log and the other side log just magically carrying itself? This is a heavy log. You're Called your business. You have to.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

I'm just like, are these topless Navy seals? Hold on. I. This matters. On how I'm managing this.

[Oren Klaff]

Six, seven, Sandy and sweaty. The first investor in the large company I have now is a Navy seal, and I know these guys really well. So listen, you, Lauren, Ralph, you guys have a problem, right? We solve that problem. That's what we do all day long. We've solved it for 250 people just like you. This is what we do. You guys have backed yourself up. You made bad decisions, you got inadequate software. You. You know, you hired the wrong people. You went through a couple of consultants, you got yourself into a crappy place. All right? We solved this problem. Like, we don't have this problem. You have it. I don't have it. You have it. Not only do you have it, you have it about as bad as it gets. What I mean by that is, if this problem gets any worse over there, we're not even interested in helping you because it's too hard. But today, this is something we do. You have to be committed to. This is a hard problem we. But you have to be committed to solving. I will not work harder in your business than you will. What sense is that? I don't own equity in it. I don't get paid by it. I don't get to go to the Christmas party if you guys sell the company. I don't get to go to nasdaq, and so I get nothing. All I do is get a paltry $250,000 annually in which I have 30% gross margin, 5% net margin. That's what I get. Hard fucking work. Do you know how SaaS software works? When we win this account, you think, like, we're popping a cork, right? People are like, oh, crap, you signed another one of those. I'm like, don't worry. It will turn into something good. I believe in these guys. You aren't giving me anything except hard work and problems. But this is what we do. The vet doesn't go, oh, my God, it's Lauren's ostrich again. It goes, fuck it. We prefer to get kittens. But now we got another ostrich. We're a vet. That's what we do. We're. We're sworn to the code of helping people who have problems. That's what we do. I will help you out. And then we got to talk about the price.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Gosh, does this felt so much like sales therapy.

[Oren Klaff]

You're just you.

[Ralph Burns]

I've said all this and all your calls.

[Oren Klaff]

Lauren, I do not recommend this. And it's not all you have to been in cycle hundreds of times in order to do it. But I will say, ralph, come on, just go yourself. Honestly, do you hear yourself? That is not a thing that you're talking about. Like, do you want to actually solve this, or you want to do kabuki theater? I have things to do. Listen, I'm trying to figure out the price with you. You know what the price is, all right? It's more than you want to pay. It's less than I want to charge. That's what the price is. Somewhere in the middle is something called fairness. I promise you of one thing. Can't make any, you know, big promises. But I do promise you this. When we go, this is the price you'll go. That's what I thought. It's completely fair. If you're looking for the one from Malaysia, Vietnam, China, Indonesia, Turkey, go get that one. People solve this in many ways. Women, you know, Lauren, to your point, women have babies all over the world in fields and in huts. You don't have to have it in La Jolla. Scripps Hospital. It's the preferred place to do it if you're like us. We have one kid. We don't have emergency backups. Right? That's where we had our kid. But you don't need the. When I, I told you I worked out with the Navy seals for a long time. When we had our son, it was. She had very long labor. You know, it was like, you know, almost 24 hours. Finally, everyone was gone. They. It was just the nurse practitioner, you know, to weigh the kid and everything. And my wife was passed out, and I was holding the baby. A doctor everybody else had cleared out. And then the. She's waiting the baby, and she goes, who wrote on this baby? Right? And so I, I had tattooed already. No, I, I, I worked out with this Navy. With this Navy SEAL guy from, you know, in old school, right? From like, you know, Vietnam era. He's like, when you have the baby, you want to make sure to put your name on it so I can't switch it out, right? So I bring up, like a permanent marker. I write my name and the date, like my signature that nobody else can do on the baby, and. And she goes, who wrote on this baby? And I'm like, it. I'm definitely in trouble because only my wife, and she's sleeping. Me and her are the only people in the room.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Oh, one of his I'm sorrys came.

[Oren Klaff]

Out, and, yeah, that Was a. That was my annual.

[Ralph Burns]

That was your one one.

[Oren Klaff]

I was like, hey, but that's a.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Fair thing to do. Have you seen Crazy Frankie? They talk about like, why you should never have your mouth open when a plane flies over you.

[Oren Klaff]

Yeah.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

And in the show they said, because have you ever had a bunch of feces fall in your face?

[Oren Klaff]

Oh my God, I never heard that. But so then she goes, you know, why did you ride on the baby? And that. Well, you know, I work out with this guy and he's a Navy. It's like entourage. You know, the explanations that they would give to, you know, an entrust. Well, because I work out the Navy seal. And he said that they switched the baby out. And she's like, we don't switch babies. Anyway, all of this ties into one thing. You have to be. You have to love that account. You have to lean into the account. You have to want the account if they admire the account. But you have to hold the account accountable for certain behaviors. What you can do is you can convince them of the features and the benefit and the value proposition and your integrity and your expertise and the track record of your company and that your information is better than the other person's information and that. But you cannot teach them behaviors that will make it profitable. We sell either a service or a product that comes with a service, or we sell equity. If you are raising money and you take a bad investor with core values that don't align with your own, you will live with the consequence of that decision for the rest of your life. It's so destructive. And I'm sure you know, Ralph, in your sales effort, in your company, taking a bad customer loses more money than it was ever worth in the first place from a distraction, from a raw dollar point, from the frustration of the teams. So accountability, it has a twin benefit. One, it stops you from, from taking a money losing or problematic customer. And number two, it gives you the non neediness you're looking for. This is the amazing thing. There's no risk to being non needy because you're just saying, I have a boundary which I do not go beyond.

[Ralph Burns]

Which makes you more desirable, which is.

[Oren Klaff]

The counterintuitive part of it, which makes you more desirable. Now how you do it. Now, you can't. I don't want people leaving this call and going, you know, hey, I have boundaries. I don't go beyond. Let me explain them to you. The boundaries come in conversations as you go along. But here, when you see something goofy in the behaviors of the client, if you have ironed out your own belief system, your own values, your own boundary. You just call it out and you go, why are you saying that? That's super goofy. There's a yellow flag, pink flag, red flag, you know, whatever you want to call it. Sometimes people just say things. I know you want a discount or whatever, but let's use our time together in a way that makes sense. Stop saying that.

[Ralph Burns]

Merging that concept with. So after reading Pitch anything so many different times, you're just listening to it once a year for so many years. And then all of a sudden, I realized, oh, my God, he's got this other book. Which is to your point. It's like, you've got two books. And I'm like, do I really want to read the other one? Because I've already kind of gotten the other one down. And then all of a sudden, I'm like, geez, you know, just from the intro, I'm like, getting people to believe that they're making the decision on their own terms. I'm like, yeah, that makes sense, too. How do you merge those two worlds together in an effective way?

[Oren Klaff]

I. I think about it like this, and maybe we can, you know, we can start to, you know, happy to do this again. You know, maybe we start to, you know, wind down and we can pick up some tactics or you can bring. I had a podcast with a guy who has a book called exactly what to say. Phil Jones. Really nice guy. Have you familiar with the book?

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

No, but I'm familiar with saying I know exactly what to say.

[Oren Klaff]

So I have on the podcast, and I go. I go, yeah. I go, phil, let's. Okay, so let's sell something to each other. Like, let's just invent something, right? This is like a. You know, I forgot what it was. But, like, like, invent a software product right now, right? And then you'll sell it to me using exactly what to say. He's like, well, you know, I kind of. Like, I have to think about it. You know, I have to understand the product and think about the features and benefit. I'm like, no, we're just going to invent it now. Like, okay, we'll come up with the features, benefits, value proposition. You sell it to me, right? And he's like, yeah, but I didn't have time to really, you know, think about it and what, you know, what the positioning would be. You wrote a book called exactly what to say.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

How dare you.

[Ralph Burns]

How dare you not need second and.

[Oren Klaff]

Like, do a blueprint and write it out.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

I mean, did you See the asterisk? Most of the time.

[Ralph Burns]

Most of the time. Unless I'm asked by Oracle after thinking.

[Oren Klaff]

For a while and waiting for AI to be invented. All right, so, so I think I would love, you know, we'd love to do again and let, let's bring situation and do some role playing and go through it. But here's what I want to say. Pitch anything to me is like when people read it and I talk to them and their reaction to it. I mean, it's taught as a standard in every Fortune 500 company. If you go pitch a deal in Silicon Valley using anything method, they will go, oh, that's an orange clough pitch. It is a standard. And, and so I understand what people go through when they get first exposure to pitch anything. And it's like you go to your closet and you're like, get it to get a sweater. And you're like looking in the back of it. You're like, what's that knob? Right? And you pull on the knob and a door opens. You're like, there's Narnia back there, like tiger monster and like witches and lions that speak. And you're like, you go into this world and it's magic. And you can suddenly see with pitch anything the magic that exists in human relationships when it comes down to buying and selling, that's pitch anything. Flip the script is how to survive in that world. Exactly what to say. Flip the script as full of things you can say, how do you, once you've entered Narnia, how do you survive, win and own a kingdom in the land of Narnia and win the game. And that's how I think of the interplay of those two books.

[Ralph Burns]

I don't know what to say. I mean, I guess I'm at a loss for words. The first time in 700 some odd shows. But this has been amazing because first off, these two books together, if you're a marketer and you don't know how to sell or you don't know how to sell and you think you know how to sell these books, like open up a whole other realm of not even like it's persuasion, but it's human psychology and it's all the different techniques. There's so many different techniques we didn't even talk about here on today's show. But I highly recommend anyone listening to this show to get both of your books, get them on audible, listen to them over and over again. Especially if you're doing any sort of selling or convincing or persuading because we all are, all the time. Where's the best place for people to connect with you?

[Oren Klaff]

If you go to orenclaff.com put your name in. But I send a newsletter out and what I, you know, in today's world, the information is free. I don't sell anything. I don't have a course. I just give it all, try and help people. It brings you zigzagger, you know, give as much as you can and whatever you need will come. Whatever. If you really love something, let it go and it will fly. Just open a fortune cookie and whatever's in there.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

But if you're going from Marie Kondo to Chinese fortune cookies, like, let it go. Crack it open.

[Ralph Burns]

It's a hard left turn.

[Oren Klaff]

Of course, I don't need any money from you. I don't need any money at all. What I try and do is help salespeople and marketers understand what give you a window into what we're doing at scale that's actually working.

[Ralph Burns]

So orencla.com best place to go.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

K L A F F K L.

[Ralph Burns]

A F F. We'll leave links in the show notes over perpetualtraffic.com of course, and that way you can connect with Warren. It's been awesome having you on here and I think we could have talked like for another two or three shows, which, by the way, if you ever want to, let's do it again.

[Oren Klaff]

Here we go.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

Oh, we should do it in person. We're in SoCal.

[Oren Klaff]

All right, Lauren, I will. I'll see you tomorrow.

[Ralph Burns]

Yeah, Lauren's gonna swing by Oren's office. That's fantastic. All right, well, thank you so much for coming on. I'm saying thank you here because I am actually thanking you for coming on, sort of. We put this super quick. Really appreciate all of the knowledge bombs that you've dropped here today. So like I said, all the links, all the resources we mentioned here are in the show notes [e-mail] so on behalf of my amazing co host, Lauren E. Petrulo, thank you. And Tao, sorry for messing up there at the end. No, I'm just kidding. Till next show. See ya.

[Lauren E. Petrulo]

You've been listening to Perpetual Traffic, Sam.