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Hey, before we get into today's show, my marketing manager finally convinced me to run a wild experiment in this episode because he wanted to prove what the conversion engine can do for your brand. So we are giving away three of our $10,000 deep dive audits for free in this audit. And this isn't one of those audits that you get from some AI generated bot. This actually takes us two plus weeks, seven or eight of our team members and it is incredibly in depth. It will give you insights into your media buying, your creative, your actual business metrics and find out exactly where the gaps are and where your growth is stalled and what we can do about it or what you can do about it when you get the audit. Now here's the catch. We only have three spots so head on over to tier11.com audit right now. Fill out the form and let's see how we can scale your business in the coming year. This is a premium e Commerce case study. So 2023 when they came to us, they were about a $5 million in revenue. Worked with us in 2025, they had a $32 million year in revenue. So solution number one we you're listening to Perpetual Traffic. We all know this is marketing marketers and business owners that growth is amazing until something breaks or some catastrophic event, heaven forbid should ever happen to your business. And I don't mean just your ad campaigns going sideways. Maybe a client slips on a wet floor or a shipment suddenly goes missing, or a contractor gets hurt, or an employee gets hurt. Suddenly the thing you've been building can take a huge financial hit, maybe one that you worry might take down the company. And you should always be thinking about that as the business owner. Most people don't think about business insurance until after something goes wrong, when it's already too expensive or it's too late. That's why we're big fans of what Next Insurance is Doing Business Insurance is so important for any business, whether you're online or offline. And they've basically taken the pain out of business insurance. It's 100% online, ridiculously fast, and designed specifically for small businesses. You answer just a few questions and NEXT tells you exactly what coverage you need. No phone calls, no waiting, no holding the line for the next representative. Just fast, affordable production that actually has your back when things go sideways. Policies start for as little as $29 a month. Don't wait for a crisis to remind you you're not covered. Get protected in minutes@nextinsurance.com perpetual that's next nextinsurance.com forward slash perpetual. Hello and welcome to the Perpetual Traffic podcast. This is your host, Ralph Burns, founder and CEO of Tier11, flying solo today because we just got this case study done, which I think you're going to be interested in. If you are selling e commerce products, if you are selling service products, if you are selling digital products, this case study I think is going to have a lot that you can learn take away, you can deploy yourself, inform your team about it. Or of course, if you need our help, we're happy to do the same kind of thing with you and your business. And our goal here is to help teach you how to do this stuff the right way by using metrics that matter in growth, that scales. And this case study perfectly exemplifies exactly how we were able to do this with a really great brand that just didn't have much momentum when they first started working with us. And as a caveat, they came on I think the week or two before Black Friday a few years back, which I kind of pissed off my team, quite honestly bringing them on that late in the year. But they were able to really put things together very, very quickly and got some incredible results here. So this is going to be a screen share here today. So I highly recommend if you were listening to this, if you're at the gym, you're walking the dog, whatever it happens to be, head on over to our YouTube channel over at perpetualtraffic.com YouTube and check it out on the video side. All right, so this is a premium e commerce case study. So when we say premium, we mean that the average order value or naov is usually multiple hundreds of dollars. We have done a lot of case studies here where the new average order value as opposed to the average order value, not necessarily one in the same. A new average order value of anywhere from $100 to $200. We sort of consider it as a premium kind of product and in this case it's, oddly enough, it's in the case niche and we will blur out some of the financial information here just because we want to protect the innocent, so to speak, and obviously keep the financial parts of this, you know, confidential for, for the sake of this client. But the point is, is like when you have a higher average order value, a lot of folks will be very, very intimidated with that and it's harder to sell higher end products on Meta and Google. It's there is a direct correlation that the higher your average order value, typically the more challenging, the more convincing that you need to do unless you have something that no one else has, which is how you want to position yourself as something that's very, very unique. But as a general rule, the higher the price of your product, service, whatever it happens to be, the higher that price is, the more convincing that you're going to have to do it and the more creative diversification, especially with Android and you'll see here on today's case study will play into that with multiple touch points. Myself John Lauren, we've talked about this many times. Could be a couple of touch points. It could be watching two or three different videos. It could be three videos and five image ads. It could be watching seven different videos and maybe an image and then finally getting an add to cart ad which is maybe a dpa. Every journey for your prospective customer is different and you have to treat them differently. And as a general rule, the higher the price of your product, the more touches you're probably going to have to have. So this is a pretty good one. This is a naov of in and around 200. I'll give you some examples here. So let's get right into the case study. So in 2023 when they came to us and this was in and around, like I said, Black Friday Cyber Monday, they were about a 5 million in revenue company. They had acquired about 18,000 or so customers in that calendar year of 2023, worked with two years. So they were a mid sized company. This is a company that typically this is a good revenue range for tier 11 here because these are the types of businesses where you've got something that works. The problem is, is that they just could not scale at all and they wanted to reach much loftier goals, much loftier revenue goals as you can see in the couple slides that we'll have here in just a second. So remarkable results. In 2025 they had a $32 million year in revenue and with 113,000, just over 113,000 new customers. We verify this obviously through the back end through their Shopify store as well as through the tier 11 data suite which we'll show you exactly how we do that in just a second here. So that is a 543% revenue increase with a 503% new customer increase. Let's go back to these numbers again here. 5 million in 2023, 18,000 new, 32 million in revenue in 2025 with 113,000 new customers. Obviously all this is about just acquiring new customers at a cost that makes sense for the business so that you can scale and grow. And that's one of the first things that we did when we started working with them is specifically finding out exactly how much they can pay to acquire a customer. They hadn't really done math on this. You can do this over@tiereleven.com NCAC you can get our NCAT calculator. You can also download our MPI or marketing Performance Indicators checklist over@tiereleven.com MPI because we're going to be talking about a lot of these marketing performance indicators and specifically NCAC in today's presentation here. So we did all of this in less than two years. So this was their goal. Their goal now is to be a $50 million company in 2026. This is a 5x growth target. It's also a 10x growth target within three years. Like they went from 5 million. Now their goal is 50 million growth in 2026. Challenges that they had were this traffic. They were over reliant on two traffic channels and we'll talk about that here on today's show. Also capabilities, their in house marketing had serious gaps. They just didn't have the technical expertise in order to be able to sort of merge the streams together. Google other platforms also should they go into Amazon? A lot of these sort of questions. So some of their in house marketing capabilities were were lacking and obviously that's where an agency, a good agency comes in. They'd also been burnt by other agencies in the past. This is very, very typical for us. We see this all the time. They look at go from agency to agency to agency and they try and make themselves look good when in fact the business just stalls. And that's exactly what was happening here. They sort of have reached this four or five million dollars range and just couldn' past it. And their current agency just weren't able to get out of their own way. So the steps that we took were really sort of three individual steps and we'll go into detail here. Like I said, if you're listening to this I would highly encourage you to head on over to our YouTube channel, perpetualtropic.com YouTube and check out the presentation. So step one was the NCAC reducer framework. This is one of the big things that we do. First off we figure out what your cost to acquire a customer is. This is what happens within the first couple of weeks, first two, three weeks. We find this is absolutely amazing that most businesses don't really know what this number is nor do they understand their math sort of behind the initial sale. So once again we use the MPI checklist, we use the NCAT calculator and which you can get those as free resources over at turren.com ncac and211.com mpi and you can really get more in depth because this is the foundational stuff. So the NCAG reducer framework is a framework where we look at sort of gross sales over time, what's your returning customer rate and then what are those orders that are fulfilled over time. And this is a metric in and around sort of the early part of 2024. Like I said, they came to us late 23. So this is sort of our baseline. What we found was that in January of that year their NCAC and their CAC were increasing with scale. And this was one of the problems that we started to see originally is that we, when we started taking over the advertising, some of their NCAC numbers just were out of control. First off, we didn't really have many financial controls in place and we realized that we had to put financial controls in place and also set on a number of and as they scaled their NCAT continued to increase, which is sort of reversed. You really, you are obviously going to get an NCAC increase over time but it was too drastic and it just didn't make sense for the business. So they believed that their growth into in the early part of 2024 was being hindered or their growth for 2024. Once again, they came to us in 2023. They believe that their growth in 2024 was being hindered by market saturation. They felt that they were really saturating with this type of case, which we'll talk about in just a second. There's a lot of competition, especially for the best selling product. So they decided when they first started working with us they wanted to diversify their product advertising and reduce their budget allocated to paid ads and explore maybe additional marketing streams like influencer marketing, that sort of thing. And we talked to them about this because their top case really is a commodity product. Other brands had entered into the marketplace. There was more fierce competition. We, we needed a way to figure out how to stand out in the market. And this is the key with creative diversification. This is the key with your marketing. There's something within your product itself or service or digital product that's different than what else is out there. So that was part of our onboarding process. And so we really realized that their revenue was even though it was tied up in one specific product, diversification was not the way to go. Creative diversification is great, but product diversification, especially if you have a bestseller that has very good margins, you really want to double down on that and find different markets within that one product and then go after those markets through very, very targeted advertising, very targeted messaging. And that's exactly what we did. One of their other problems is that they had less B2B order contribution. There is a part to their market where there's a wholesale element. And so most of their sales were actually coming through online sales. They had done some B2B sales in the past, but it was largely outpaced by sort of this newer online. So we needed to generate and stimulate that B2B market in addition to the consumer market. So this is sort of a B2B and a B2C play here. But we did this through the initial analysis. One of the other problems that they found is that their lower top of funnel traffic quality was really slanted to an a older audience. I wasn't going to say elderly. An older audience, which is 65 plus. Hey, real quick, if you're looking to get your brand in front of growth minded marketers, CMOs, directors of marketing and agency owners, we're opening up our sponsorship spots for Q1 and Q2. Get in front of a quarter of a million marketers every single month at Perpetual Traffic. All you have to do is head on over to perpetual traffic.com for the details or check out the link in the show notes to apply. Previously, Meta was spending the lowest proportion of their budget on this 65 plus market. But as they scaled up, Meta skewed their audience targeting more to 65. This would not be the case in today's market with Andromeda, but this was exactly what we found. So we needed to manually adjust. We've changed these strategies over time. Obviously this is back in late 23, early 2024, just when we started taking over real active management for them. And you can see December is the first audience in flow inflection point where all of a sudden we really started to sort of change the entire model away from this older crowd and realized that there was other markets that we needed to go after in addition to the 65 plus. Problem number three was they had less exposure to their core audience. And this is another chart from late 23 into 2024 where targeting a lot of their advertising on Facebook, they weren't getting a whole lot on Instagram. And what we're finding is that what less than 65 year old audiences tend to skew a bit more towards Instagram. So we realized that there was a mix here that wasn't making sense for them from a business standpoint. And so we started to put together a strategy that would counter this and obviously be able to produce the scale and the growth that we talked about in the first couple of slides. So the fourth problem was product diversification. Like I said, they really felt that instead of steering more of their traffic towards their bestselling product, they wanted to diversify. And oftentimes diversification for multiple products is what we refer to as diversification because yes, you want to have a basket of products so that you are well diversified in case you have supply chain issues, in case, for example, there are tariffs that all of a sudden come on on your best selling product that you hadn't anticipated. You don't want to be a one product company. However, what you do want to do is you want to double down as much as you possibly can on your best sellers, your most popular products and the ones with the best margins. Ones with the best margins you can afford to and you are willing and able to pay more to acquire a customer. So there was a correlated spike in NCAC from drop on sessions on the product page for the best selling product, as you can see here, that decreased at those sales and those new customers decreased almost 41% year over year. So we realized there was something that was really going wrong here. And so they were focused on these sort of lower priced, lower margin products that weren't really the most popular products in their portfolio. And if you're running an E commerce brand and you're trying to sell all products, let's say you have a thousand SKUs, you really do need to figure out, okay, what category, what individual products are going to be my lead products and focus on them, especially with their creative diversification strategy around those products. And that way you can acquire customers quickly, hopefully at a not at a loss and at a profit. And then once they become customers of you, then you can cross sell and upsell them through different products, which is exactly what we did here. So solution number one, we capped their meta age targeting. Now would we do this today? Like this is a chart from 2024 and would meta do this on its own? Now with Andromeda, it probably would. But what we did is we basically cut out that 65 plus audience. And the meta guidelines told you that if you wanted to go broad with audiences at the moment that would make sense. But this account simply didn't have the creative for those other markets to be able to sustain that growth. So we realized 65 plus was responding to their ads, which we'll show you in just a second here, which really kind of bland and just sort of generic. We need new creative, we needed new targeting, we needed to be able to attract those younger buyers because we could also see in the back end in Shopify that they also had a higher naov these younger buyers. Younger is relative. I mean, anything that's below 54, all the way down to 25 in their particular case. So you're looking at the numbers. Yes, you're running advertising, yes, you're figuring out creative strategy. But at the core of all this is sort of business metrics. And those business metrics are the ones that really matter because that produces the growth that ultimately scales. So solution number two was focus entire budget on their hero product. And this was a little bit later in 2024. You can see this one product instead of it decreasing as a couple slides ago, I'll just backpedal here just a little bit. It was down 41%. Now all of a sudden we're focused more on this product and it's up 18%. Some of the other products that sort of came along with it that were related, you can see another one that was up 23%, but most of the lower margin, less profitable, less popular products were really on the decline. And yes, I mean you can see it's 78,000 in sales versus 7,000, 7,000, 6,500. So the focus was really to go after this bestseller. We called it the bestseller 801 case. And we'll show pictures of it a little bit later. That was the one where we could really acquire customers, have them become advocates for the product, and then ultimately cross sell them on other offers later on down the line. So here is in direct proportion to, if you remember the slides that I showed a few slides ago, we had a lot of traffic on Facebook. Well, we switched a lot of that towards Facebook reels and Instagram reels. We created content and created ads. This is all part of creative diversification that was perfectly suited for, for those formats, that 9 by 16 format. And they were really just sort of trying to wedge in the old ads that you would see in the news feed or maybe a 4 by 316 by 9 into a 9 by 16 arrangement. It just didn't look well. So as you can see here, this is June, July of 2024. We're really starting to make inroads. And you can see that the spend for Instagram and Facebook reels specifically really started to take off and that did correlate with performance. So result number one significant year over year Shopify growth driven by D2C. So this is a breakdown of their D2C orders here. You can see that all of a sudden their D2C orders were starting to increase and this one by about 72%. Gross sales were up about 57%. You can see this is obviously this is through most of 24 we're really starting to gain even more momentum year over year. And 24 turned out to be a really, really solid year for them. One of the biggest things here is in result number two is that we decrease their cost to acquire customers on Shopify. And this was an absolute killer in 23 and 24. Every single time that they started to increase spend in 23 into the time that we started to work with them in late 23, early 24, all of the ads that we had before we introduced a lot of the tier 11 ads were just increasing. So spend was increasing, NCAC was increasing. But as you can see here, total ad spend was really starting to increase. But NCAC started to decrease and went down from 117 for NCAC all the way down to 70 in 24. So we were starting to show some really, really positive signs. Step number two was that we started to introduce this happened in mid 24. Hey, real quick, if you're looking to get your brand in front of growth minded marketers, CMOs, directors of marketing and agency owners, we're opening up our sponsorship spots for Q1 and Q2. Get in front of a quarter of a million marketers every single month at Perpetual Traffic. All you have to do is head on over to perpetualtraffic.com for the details or check out the link in the show notes to apply. As I recall we introduced the tier 11 data suite. We have here is tier 11 data suite. Power was step number two. So top line metrics are one of those MPIs that we talked about and you can obviously you can get that over at tier11.com forward/mpi. Understand what all these number are and NCAC was the number one thing we focused on. And like I said, this is a free resource. Cheerleven.com NCAC you can actually download the calculator and determine what your NCAC is. We've done plenty of shows here and I'll leave links in the show notes for that if you're not familiar with cost to acquire a new customer. Because this is platform dependent. It is not dependent upon one individual platform. And tier 11 data suite is how we were able to to determine NCAC and get a real accurate figure here. And this is how the tier 11 data suite works. This is why it's such an incredible tool. The user clicks on an ad on one of the platforms, say meta. Here we capture that user information on the edge using an Edge server as opposed to that information that click being lost on the origin server and blocked by cookies, blocked by pop up blockers, blocked by slow loading websites. IOS 14 updates. The Beauty with Tier 11 data suite is it mitigates or almost completely eliminates that blindness that iOS14 started and pop up blockers and all the other privacy issues that we've had. So we capture that data on the edge using an Edge server, a CDN server. The tool that we use is Blot out and then we pump that into our data warehouse and then that is shot into the interface which is Wicked Reports. Wicked Reports is our, our preferred database. And this data, because it's being caught on the edge is so clean now we use CAPI Imports on top of this to get the data even more accurate. The point is this is the data that flows back into the platform is cleaner data, highly accurate, 99.4% accurate. And then also within the interface itself you're getting real click data. This isn't modeled data. A lot of the other platforms, triple whale, etc. A lot of those use model data. This is actual Qlik data. And we do it through the Tier 11 data suite and we use Wicked Reports as our interface. So when you get clear numbers, you can produce reports like this here and you can see the top line metrics. We're monitoring blended top line metrics using Meta, using Google, figuring out what the CAC breakdown is, what's the actual ncac, what's the All CAC or acac. That is your cost to acquire all customers. Those are new and repeat. Usually they're a little bit less repeat customers. You don't have to pay as much to acquire them because you've already acquired them. So in this case, this is a snapshot from mid 2024. Our NCAC was about $65 and our ACAC was about $49 and the AOV is about $233. So going back to what I talked about in the original part of this presentation, here is AOV anything that's $200 plus we typically categorize as a premium E Commerce brand or a premium brand. And with these numbers acquiring a customer for $65 and or all customers at $49. The metrics work for them based upon average order value. And we validate this through Both the Tier 11 data suite as well as the backend inside Shopify itself. So this is just a snapshot of what you see inside the tier 11 data suite. You can see every channel has its own individual costs, its own individual ad spend, its new revenue, it's returning revenue, it's, it's NCAC cost to acquire a new customer, all CAC or acac which is cost to acquire a customer. What the ROAS is per platform? This is all qlik data here. But what we don't really look at is the individual platform. So what we look at is the overall how the business is doing by blending all the platforms together. And this is with Facebook ads, this is Google Ads, Microsoft ads, YouTube ads. We also have the ability to pump in Amazon data, we have the ability to pump in programmatic data, native data and it's all based upon click. So it's highly, highly accurate as well as text, SMS and TikTok. So this is just the kind of dashboard that you see inside the tier one data suite. Very, very important to be able to contrast that with what's actually going on inside the ad platform. So if you benchmark your NCAC or your cost to acquire a new customer in Meadow, for example, and then compare that against what you see inside tier 11 data suite, you will be able to get a very accurate pict as to how much you're actually spending to acquire a customer. And if you use the platform alone, the platform alone, especially with meta, it only captures the last click for the ad that had the actual purchase or the view for the ad that had the last purchase. It doesn't show how all of them work together. And that's especially true now with creative diversification. So you can see here, this is also benchmarking. We use some data driven creative decisions. Here you can see some of the ads. Here we used a, a software tool called Motion and you can see hook rate. Here you can see hold rate, you can see watch, score, all of these sorts of things. We used all these together to start to determine, okay, which ads, which creatives are the ones that are really resonating with the markets that we really want to target. Remember, we're trying not to target the 65 plus market. We're really trying to target anywhere between the 25 to 54 range in most cases and they respond to different types of ads and we use a variety of different tools in which to do that. But you can also do that Very easily inside the tier 11 data suite. Step three, and I've alluded to this numerous times here, is creative diversification. This is the key to everything that we're doing right now and will be into the foreseeable future, especially as Meta is the number one platform that we utilize in order to scale and grow businesses and ultimately help them achieve their vision is creative diversification. And you can see creative diversification on Meta here. The quality creators on paid social are rewarded by getting impressions. We also know hook rate. We also know hold rate. We also know click through rate, outbound, click through rate. All of these signals indicate this is an ad that's resonating with the market, whether it's top of funnel, middle of funnel or bottom of funnel. And then Meta allows the algorithm to really work in order to optimize for the sale, depending on where they are in the customer journey. So creative diversification is key here. We really started to leverage that in late 2024 into 2025 when things really started to take off with creative diversification. So once again you can see our NCAC really improving over time. Our cost per purchase in app went down from 121 to in and around the 55 and 78 range overall cost per purchase. So we were using the in platform metrics as a guide, but not as our real source of truth. The real source of truth was coming from outside and that is through the Tier 11 data suite and that is through obviously the backend in this particular case with Shopify. This is creative diversification. How it works on Meta. We'll leave links in the show notes for this, but we've done many, many, many shows on this and this is how the algorithm really works using these crazy Grace Hopper GPUs. And I'm not going to get into all the specifics here. We've done on plenty of shows on why Andromeda is so good, but that's a little bit of a visual representation as to how it all really works. The bottom line is this is that Meta knows where your prospect is in your customer journey and will show the right ad to them at the right time to engage them to ultimately push them down the path down your sales funnel within Meta. And then whether it's the last click might be when they see your Google Ad, your Google branded ad, or whether they buy on Amazon. The point is this is that Meta understands exactly what ad to show at what time. That trickle down effect is also seen within other channels. So you'll see us spending a lot on Meta but then Meta might not get the air quoting this the credit for the sale. The sale might actually come on another platform platform and it's usually at a very bottom of the funnel. Like you know, for these guys, a lot of their last click sales came from people googling the brand or googling the name of the product and then buying that way where Meta and YouTube in this case we started to install YouTube ads. The awareness was created on these other platforms which didn't even create a click. So you've got to look at everything together and that's exactly what the tier 11 data suite does. And that's what good data allows you to do, is to determine how everything is working together as opposed to just individually by channel. And that's an old school way of doing things. Used to work five years ago, doesn't work today. And that's why we're so excited about the results here. So let's just get into some of the differences. In some of the ads you can see here you might see some of this blurred out a bit, the name of the company and so forth. But you can kind of see. So before they started working with us they were very not strategic. They featured sort of any product, not specific product. Like I said, we focused on the best sellers and they featured products on any color variants, not the top sellers. Like it was just sort of random. After they started working with us, we focused on the top products that 80% of the revenue comes from and focused on using the top three selling colors. Just sort of it. This is really simple stuff. Show your best selling stuff that appeals to the widest audience and then just do open targeting and have really, really good messaging that speaks to that customer. So before weak messaging we started a closed case. We didn't even show the open case. You can see on the right hand side. We called out particular audience groups directly via language and or visually. This one is for gun owners obviously like we have, that was one of our avatars is these cases are great for gun owners. It's also American made. There's lots of different things. So we tried a lot of different ways in which to diversify the creative and ultimately we're able to scale and grow. So the ads on the left hand side didn't address problems or desires faced by the audience, whereas the ads on the right did. It presented the problems or desires faced by the audience to position the product as a solution and a unique solution and made the ads and the products far more appealing. One of the things that they also did not do to start off, you can see there is a slightly older gentleman in the left hand side here. Remember we wanted to get away from that 65 plus audience so we started doing reels. We started doing 9 by 16 ads that featured guys in their 30s and 40s considered sort of native style. Even sort of, you know, almost like ugly lo fi types of ads that we had to convince the client like hey, this stuff is going to work. Maybe it's not really super in line with your brand like the stuff that's on the left hand side, but this is the stuff that really does work. These lo fi ads. Very TikTok, very Instagram story, Instagram reel types of ads. So conclusion here is, this is. Yeah, we were able to really kick ass 5 million in sales in 2020. As you can see on the slide here, they had about 18,000 new customers and they're actually just shy of 19,000 customers. But in 2024 obviously progress was made. About 8.6 million in 2024 new customers, about 33,000. So you can see, all right, we doubled basically their new customer rate, kept their NCAC at a tolerable figure. And you can see the chart here. Obviously a pretty darn good year in 2024 after our efforts. But 2025 was the absolutely killer year where they reached revenue of 32 million. We really scaled things up and their new customer count ballooned up to 113,000 and will continue to this day. They are wanting to go to that next level and get to 50 million in revenue which we're pretty excited to get to and pretty excited for them as a business and they have been a, a great client of ours. We really, really appreciate these guys and this is how it's supposed to work ultimately. So obviously if you want our help you can get over to tier11.com forward/apply or just your11.com check it out over there. But you guys already know that. So that is today's case study. Like I said, we'll leave lots of links in the show notes for you guys. Obviously the NCAC calculator was pivotal to this. Tier11.com NCAC obviously the MPI checklist is absolutely essential to understand all of your marketing performance indicators, especially new customer acquisition. We talked about NAOV here, we talked about aov, we talked about acac. We didn't really even talk about LTV which was part of our analysis and we can even get to that in future shows. But I highly encourage you to, to check those resources out. They're all free. Just enter your name and email and you will not be deluged by emails from us, I guarantee that. But obviously we do this show to help you as a business scale and grow or to teach your team how to do it. And of course, if you need tier 11's help, we are there for you@tier11.com so all the links, all the stuff I mentioned here today will be over in the show notes over@perpetualtraffic.com if you are listening to this, I definitely recommend you check this out over on our YouTube channel over at perpetual traffic forward slash YouTube. So on behalf of my amazing co host Lauren E. Petrulo, who couldn't make it here today till the next show, see ya. You've been listening to Perpetual Traffic.