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- [00:00]
A
Hey, real quick, before we dive in, if you've got a brand or marketing tool that marketers need to know about, sponsor the show here at Perpetual Traffic. Perpetual Traffic puts you in front of thousands of seasoned marketers, CMOs, and agency owners. So head on over to perpetualtraffic.com to apply to be a sponsor of this show. Google has transformed into an intent machine, not a traffic machine. You really need to know what you're doing. You're playing with fire. You're playing with thousands of millions of dollars of spend here.
- [00:31]
B
Google will think that's quote this worth 600 bucks a click because it might transform into a case gonna make you pay the intent instead of paying you the traffic.
- [00:43]
A
So what do you really mean by that?
- [00:46]
B
You're listening to Perpetual Traffic.
- [00:50]
A
We all know this as marketers and business owners, that growth is amazing until something breaks or some catastrophic event, heaven forbid, should ever happen to your business. And I don't mean just your ad campaigns going sideways. Maybe a client slips on a wet floor or a shipment suddenly goes missing, or a contractor gets hurt or an employee gets hurt. Suddenly the thing you've been building can take a huge financial hit, maybe one that you worry might take down the company. And you should always be thinking about that as the business owner. Most people don't think about business insurance until after something goes wrong, when it's already too expensive or it's too late. That's why we're big fans of what next insurance is doing. Business insurance is so important for any business, whether you're online or offline, and they've basically taken the pain out of business insurance. It's 100% online, ridiculously fast, and designed specifically for small businesses. You answer just a few questions and Next tells you exactly what coverage you need. No phone calls, no waiting, no holding the line for the next representative. Just fast, affordable production that actually has your back when things go sideways. Policies start for as little as $29 a month. Don't wait for a crisis to remind you you're not covered. Get protected in minutes@nextinsurance.com perpetual. That's next. Next insurance.com perpetual hello, and welcome to the Perpetual Traffic podcast. This is your host, Ralph burns, founder and CEO of Tier 11, alongside the star of the last two episodes here on Perpetual Traffic. The star who wasn't on the last two episodes, but we finally got him on part three here on how he was able to. Well, we're going to have to debate these numbers here just a bit because you actually think it's Probably a little bit more than this. But we've got Ali Leeboy from tier 11. He heads up our legal division at tier 11 and he is responsible. He and his team is responsible for the last two episodes when we've been talking about this personal injury law firm making well over $55 million in the time in which we have worked with them. Ali actually says it's more. Says it's more cases. We'll debate that here today. But anyway, very excited to have you back on Perpetual traffic, Ollie Leeboy.
- [03:18]
B
Hello, guys. Hello, Ralph. And happy to be here and discuss this case result and amongst other things about the. I guess.
- [03:28]
A
So there's a warning I would issue on this show here today. Don't be put off by Ali's understated and humble nature because I think what this guy does in the personal injury space and I've been doing this, we were talking about this, we both used to do mass tort for years and years, especially when I was an affiliate marketer. Like, what you do is super hard and we mentioned it numerous times on parts one and two. Like the clicks in this space, what you pay for a click in the personal injury law space is off the charts crazy. And you really need to know what you're doing. Like you're, you're playing with fire, you're playing with thousands and millions of dollars of spend here. And so you've got to be really on your A game. And thankfully, Ollie, I mean, you're the best person I've ever met that does this stuff and really excited to have you a part of tier 11 here and obviously super excited to have you talk about what you've learned in the last four years with this particular client as well as you've been doing this for way longer than that. We can even get into that all the stuff you learned from this case here and what the listener can learn. So if you are not a personal injury lawyer or in the law space, there's going to be a lot of learnings here for you today. And of course, if you are in the personal injury law space or you're in the legal space, you're going to learn a ton here today from Ollie. And of course, if you need our help, you can always get it over@your11.com apply. So enough about that. So let's get right into it. So how long have you been doing this in the legal space? I don't think I've ever really even asked you this question because I know it's a long time. It's not a couple of years. It's more than that. So tell us about like how you even got into it.
- [05:11]
B
Yeah, I started around 20, 2012 and started with Master on the freelance website. I saw a request to find some info about some cases in New York, so why not? So I entered it and I did the research. People like the research asked me oh okay, do you do marketing? Do you do media buying? And I was, back then I was doing affiliate marketing so I knew how to drive traffic. Yeah, of course. I can do anything you want. Even past we were doing native ads, we were doing Google Ads, maybe Facebook was starting amongst all other kind of traffic source. When you are affiliate marketing, you know your normally your numbers and your stuff. So I did yes and I started with a campaign in mass store and they like my work and usually in that business when they like your work, they there's the word of mouth and people recommend you. And I started doing other cases and I started doing PI a bit more and I still do Master and never stop. I do also PI, do worker comp, all kind of mvda. So motor vehicle accident and then criminal cases also. Now a lot of different practices. It's a nice area to work in and it's very challenging. Yeah, cost per click can go up to the roof like in the 1000. You better watch out.
- [06:37]
A
We actually have a YouTube video where we talk about you paid like $817 or $873, I think it was for one click and it actually turned into a signed case and that's how we could pay $873. So it's like if you are spending that kind of money and you're in this competitive space, you've got to know what you're doing. And it's funny to me, it's when I think about a lot of the folks that have been at tier 11 for quite some time and are still like top level marketers. A lot of them started in the affiliate space. I mean that's how I started. I don't know if I'm necessarily one of those elites anymore. The point is this, is that when you are in that market like as an affiliate, especially in something like this, we were talking about like the mesh, you know, mass tort cases that we were both working on at that point in time, you got to know what you're doing but it's a great way to learn this whole thing. So. And for those of you who aren't familiar with this, affiliate marketing is basically you have a company that will pay you per lead or per a certain conversion and you have to figure out how to pay for the traffic so that it's less than whatever the commission is that you get for the lead or for the sale or, or whatever happens to me. And on many cases those leads, they say, oh, they're bad leads. So it looks like you made a thousand dollars that day, when in fact they're like, ah, you sent me a bunch of crap leads. You lose $2,000 a day. And that happened to me many, many, many times. It really is an eat what you kill kind of scenario. And you have to live it, breathe it, just do anything you possibly can to learn how to do it. And that's how you got good at this stuff. From what it sounds like, yes.
- [08:16]
B
You have to remember that when you're affiliate marketer, it's your own money that you put on the table and you have to make money.
- [08:23]
A
I think one of the things that when you say, okay, well that's your own money. When we're working with clients, we, we feel it is our own money as well. And I think that's that sense of ownership. Like you really take this personally when things don't go well. It's not just because, hey, real quick, if you're looking to get your brand in front of growth minded marketers, CMOs, directors of marketing and agency owners, we're opening up our sponsorship spots for Q1 and Q2 of next year. Get in front of a quarter of a million markers every single month at Perpetual Traffic. All you have to do is head on over to perpetualtraffic.com for the details or check out the link in the show notes to apply. Things don't go well for the client. You take it personally because like this is very competitive, obviously, but like that you feel like that's your own money when you're spending it. And that's how, why we do this sort of in stepwise approach. You know, there's a strategy that you started off with in 2022 and 2023 which we have talked about in the previous two episodes. And by the way, if you haven't listened to parts one and parts two, we'll leave links in the show notes or just Google it, just find it on YouTube where I go through this whole presentation, which we'll probably reference here a couple of times on today's show. But your strategies from 2022 and 2023, when you first started with this, this firm, until 2025 and into 26, even radically changed, I mean it was Largely a Google type of arrangement when we first started, but then it slowly became more multi channel. And the beauty of this client is that they do actually have other avenues in which they advertise and have a good brand name, which certainly does help. But the strategies changed over time. So maybe you can just kind of take me through that a bit. And when you started as opposed to how things sort of continued through 2025, what was your overall thought on how all the channels work together? Switching from maybe Google mainly to more of a multi channel approach.
- [10:28]
B
When we started this it was mostly focused on Google Ads or Google search. And we lived the evolution from 22 to 25. The evolution between all the change into the market. The problem with the attribution with Google F the problem coming from you can't really attribute that sign case to that traffic. These are the changes I think mostly in 2022 you could buy mostly traffic but the cost per click increase, increase, increase. And Google changed also the algorithm and moved from okay, you are not buying really traffic, you are more buying an intent. So we going to make you pay the intent instead of paying you the traffic. If we continue being stubborn and paying the traffic, you, yeah, you can, you can have a campaign to be technical on exact traffic and, and oh my average traffic cost per Click is like 800 1000. Some law firm can afford this, some law firm can't. When, when you have a budget from 30 to 100k it started to be difficult to pay 800 a box a click. And around 24, 25 we started to see that oh maybe meta instead of being a separated entity started to work along with your Google campaign. So we started trying to work with the two traffic source at the same time to try to get better result and focus more on separated metric like me are instead of oh, Google is making that money, we are spending that money is like that and Facebook is doing that money and making that money. It's like that. We want to separate it. No, we want to see what we are spending and our cost per cases.
- [12:12]
A
Yeah, yeah. So I mean one of the things that when we were talking about this before the first two shows, like I said we'll leave those links in the show notes over@perpetualtraffic.com is that Google has transformed into an intent machine but not a traffic machine. So the traffic really comes from meta and the intent goes to Google to a certain degree. I guess there's lots of different ways to slice that but like how do you perceive it and how has it really changed when you mean like Google is intent? Well, people say well I do Google Ads. That creates traffic for me, it creates demand, it creates potential new customers. Whatever it is car detailing near me for example, you know, I do an ad for that, I buy that keyword, I get business from it. But so what do you really mean by that? Because that's a, that's a big shift over the course of the last three,
- [13:08]
B
four years with the multiple thousand points and data that Google had. When somebody come and search on Google usually it doesn't depend really anymore on the exact keywords they're going to type. They know with that keywords that, oh that person with all the background and all that they did, it might convert into a case or it might not convert into a case and it's just a top of the funnel person, but it might convert to a case. And then you have the pool of all the people that are bidding on that keyword. It will offer you that at such a price Google will think that's quote this worth 600 bucks a click because it might transform into a case for them. That's how the intent work. In the past. If you want keep being stubborn and then you have a campaign that's only go on manual CPC to get that case, you would have to bid the 600 without having the knowledge from Google thinking about the intent. Even if the intent is not there, that keyword at that period, it will make you pay 600 and maybe it won't convert. That's why you have to rely on more on TCPA or all the algorithm setup instead of okay, I buy that keyword for that price. It's a waste of money.
- [14:30]
A
It is a waste of money. And I think there was a conversation that was had that, and you and I have talked about this many times is that you're really focusing in on motor vehicle accidents here, car accidents specifically. But you because your campaigns are set up for that intent, you might also get motorcycle accidents, you might also get truck accidents, but truck accidents is a much more expensive keyword. So you have to balance all of that in order to be able to feed the algorithm the right type of data. And we talked about this with offline conversions, 90 day conversion window making sure that signed cases is your endpoint here, not just calls and clicks or leads. Because a lot of that doesn't really even matter. Like you have to be able to train the algorithm to be able to find those people using all the data points that Google has. But you also need to create an awareness from a brand Standpoint too for the individual keywords for the brand name of the law client. In this case it was Mike Morse Law but or so like how do you balance all that? I guess that's sort of that middle ground between like where meta and where Google kind of fit together. And I think this is an interesting case because you see it being the very, very first part of it. In part one I talk about like how you were so Google focused but then the, that changed over time. So how did you make that switch and what's sort of the strategy behind that?
- [16:03]
B
The awareness is getting more and more important here you have a big, a big law firm that already has a name. So they use billboards, they use radio, they are on tv, they do big advertising campaign. It's, it's easier there build their name but they need meta here to push it even better on social media and drive to search. But let's say they have something, you have other firm that they don't have that presence, that billboard, et cetera. So they have to think about their awareness, their brand. Where is my brand been getting seriously noticed by Google or not or by AI what we talk later. They have to do their campaign and having their order. So you have YouTube but you have meta aside, Meta is getting more and more important and working better and better with a Google Ads campaign. You have meta top of the funnel and then people, for example on Facebook people notice your brand when they need you. They type your brand on Google. They do a Google search. There is a branded campaign. They click your name and maybe convert into a case. What is dangerous if you don't use a branded campaign? They see you on Facebook. You do a lot of Facebook and you don't do much on Google. They search you and what they see is three other law firm they never heard about. They're not going to search for your organic unless they really know you. But if it's the second click or third click, they're going to click on another law firm and you're only going to lose the case.
- [17:34]
A
So it almost seems that's maybe too simplistic of an answer to my question is hey, create the awareness for the people that are potentially in market for having just suffered a motor vehicle accident or maybe had a motor vehicle accident. Maybe you're now on the couch and now the bills are starting to sort of pile up and they're thinking all right, maybe I really got, I'm getting screwed by my insurance company. There's sort of almost two different avatars there. There's the person that just had the accident and then the other person that maybe they're dealing with the after effects of the financial implications of the family issues or maybe the injury. Like maybe they're still in pain. Like there's so many different aspects to this. So originally in your campaigns you're like, all right, I'm going to get the people who haven't been in an accident today over on Meta and I'm going to get the people who have been in an accident today or within the last day or so on Google. But those two worlds kind of merged together as these campaigns evolved. It's almost like you created the awareness for the brand on Meta to a certain degree and then captured that intent on Google. Or am I just simplifying?
- [18:39]
B
There is one important fact and you're right about this. On Meta, it's usually people they didn't think about, oh, maybe I should call the lawyer for that accident that I had last year. I didn't get enough money or whatsoever. Or they see your brand, they notice your brand and when they have an accident, they know your brand and then they're going to call. But you have also those people where they don't know your brand and they just get an accident. So they take their phone, they type in, oh, injured, a car accident or car accident lawyer near me or car accident lawyer. Now it's the search campaign, it's what we call a non branded campaign. That's the most important thing here. You want to rank in the first three because people either might decide directly take and you are lucky you are the first one. And then they like your intake and you intake close them. But they might be a little bit of shopping, so they might click on three different ones. So I'm going too much further because this is a process. Yeah, it's the whole process. But those cases usually are bigger because they might be sorry for that, but injured and they are in the moment. So this is the kind of cases you absolutely want. Maybe on the Facebook side when they check their cases after a year, it might have been a smaller case.
- [19:56]
A
Yeah. A personal injury lawyer once said to me, the longer a victim waits, the worse my chances are of getting them a settlement. So I always, always like, well, this is, I think this is three or four years ago when he said that to me. And it always sort of stuck with me. And I've talked, obviously we talked with a lot of PI law firms, but that stuck with me because there was like the Meta or the Facebook avatar is the person that didn't just experience the accident. However, you're trying to merge those two worlds sort of together. So even though they may have experienced an accident and didn't call a PI lawyer within the first month or two, some law firms might say well that's not as good of a case because they've already kind of blown it, they need to call us immediately and the value is less. How do you balance that all out? Because at the end of the day it's about getting signed cases and then a successful signed case that then turns into a settlement that then you know that 30% commission then goes to the PI law firm. So how do you sort of balance those things?
- [21:01]
B
That's why there is a kind of an average. So you pay for the traffic on Facebook and Google on billboard and everywhere and then you had smaller cases and then you have bigger cases and if you are lucky you have a million dollar cases and then it help you temper the cost of maybe you had a cases that cost you 6,000 and it gives you back like 12,000 and with the cost of everything and cost of your employee, it might not be good. But Aside you have a 3 million cases or 20 million cases on this year and that you make it profitable. And mostly is those cases that are coming from the non branded side of things because they are in the action and it's an accident that just arrived. Or again we talk about the brand. They just had an accident and severe injury and they remember the brand. Oh, that's the brand I want to work with because I saw them on Facebook or on YouTube or even on TikTok.
- [21:59]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And in one of the campaigns that we we showed in the I think it was part two was the increase in Facebook now meta ad spend from like $7,000 a month to 70,000 plus per month. And you're really going after in a very small geographic area which is like Detroit metro area, Michigan, like that market. You're penetrating a lot of folks in that market. But with Andromeda, I guess this is another question which we sort of left out of the presentation is with Andromeda now with running meta ads can and is Andromeda so smart it can predict who might be in a car accident at some point in time and then show ads to that person. Has it become sort of that way the way Google was and still is to this day? To a certain degree? Like how good is meta in predicting those types of actions?
- [23:03]
B
Really good. Off the pack. Yeah, they really know exactly what's happening. Insane. Remember they have data all over the place that they have data from Instagram, they had data from Facebook. It's like they were WhatsApp. It's like everywhere there. So they know everything what's happening. So they probably can predict or predict the moment after and already push it there.
- [23:30]
A
Yeah.
- [23:31]
B
Andromeda's case, like and meta in general is off the pack for learning. With Google, we don't compare the two entities. They have so much data on us and on everybody that they can predict a lot of things.
- [23:45]
A
So one of the examples I think I used in part one is that Google has so much data on you and we intercepted this internal memo costume. My old podcast co host intercepted it and then, you know, it was redacted. But basically Google said, hey, we have 72 million data points, demographic and psychographic factors on every human on the planet. This was three years ago. 72 million. So now you got to figure it's probably double that. So they know like when you're on your phone, they know when you, they know where you're going, they know that you just went to a bar and then they know that you're. Once you went to that bar, you stayed there for an hour or two and then you're driving now and you're using an app on your phone. It's almost like that unto itself is so creepy. But if you're not a digital marketer, it's creepy. If you're a digital marketer and you're trying to assist, you know, getting people these types of cases like that is information that's incredibly vital. And what you're saying is meta has that same level of understanding to a certain degree or to a more. To a more degree or it just doesn't matter because they both work so well together.
- [24:52]
B
Google might have more, but they work well together. So it's like a part two response. It makes such a mothership. You would tell when you are making them work together with the right creative. Of course, on the beta side it's like you really have the power if you have the right setup also in Google Ads and you don't flush your money by going into a wrong setup. I'm not against manual CPC again, it's just trust. Trust more the algorithm. Trust me, I have a veteran of this. It makes it harder. But all those years I learned how to trust more the algorithm and make it work for the campaign and work along with it either in meta and on Facebook.
- [25:35]
A
So let's pick a scenario here with Mike Morse Law. You started relative like they were spending a million dollars A year. We've got a screenshot of that which actually shows how much they were spending and didn't really have their tracking set up accurately at that point in time. We helped obviously with the track. The tracking is such a huge part to this because otherwise you can't feed the algorithm the right data and you want to send it the right data, which is the signed case event, which is the most important event. But if you were to start now with a personal injury or any law firm and you're like, all right, well you've got these two platforms, we need to use them together. How would you figure out that mix? Let's say, you know, it's a, it's a larger, it's not a huge market. It's not like, you know, New York or LA or Atlanta maybe it's like, I don't know, Birmingham, Alabama. Let's just use that as an example. Or Columbus, Ohio for example. And how would you start the mix? Would you start it mostly on Google and then add meta in or would you start both together? Like what would be your initial approach?
- [26:44]
B
The first approach was depending on the spending and what they want to spend on their campaign and how long they want to spend it. It always depends. Yeah, on the states, on the city, what the average CPC over there. Ideally I would like to start with both. If the cost is too heavy on the Google side, then work more on the meta side in the beginning, spend more there like 70, 30 and see how it goes when you get started to have some sign cases, at least you have the brand data side. So I would make them work together and then scale at a point, either balance or have more into the Google side. But again it needs to be fed the right data. So one of the first thing before doing those campaign, probably check the tracking, all those tools like call tracking metrics or Corel for the call tracking and and then the CRM. Set up everything all together, make sure it's not messy, work it up, set it up to be able to send back not only the sign case, but maybe some in between conversion. Like a qualified lead would be a good step. And then go feed the campaign and work on it and tailor it a little bit. You can't expect to have result after a week.
- [28:00]
A
Hey, real quick. If you're looking to get your brand in front of growth minded marketers, CMOs, directors of marketing and agents owners, we're opening up our sponsorship spots for Q1 and Q2 of next year. Get in front of a quarter of a million marketers every Single month at Perpetual Traffic. All you have to do is head on over to perpetual traffic.com for the details or check out the link in the show notes to apply.
- [28:24]
B
Usually it can be up to two months, three months, maybe more. It depends also. No, it depends again on where you are. Location is statewide, is steady, is it nationwide, et cetera, et cetera.
- [28:38]
A
So in most cases it's, it's really, it is a regionalized focus, at least what we've seen. I mean obviously there are some, some PI Law and some law firms that do go nationwide. I mean we can think of a lot of them that we probably see in ads, you know, on the sides of buses and so forth everywhere. The point is this, is that so you're looking really at the local, like the local market and the cost per click on the Google side will indicate a certain amount of decision making as far as what portion of your overall spend will go on Google. But then you try to kind of balance the two. So there really isn't what I'm getting from you, is it really? It, it's the old answer to the question for every digital marketer, like what would you do in this scenario? Well, it depends.
- [29:25]
B
It depends.
- [29:28]
A
But you have to be able to spend in order to, to start to gather that data so that you can make those decisions. And then you're really looking at that data within the first couple of weeks, especially after the tracking setup. First and foremost, it's the first thing that we did in the case study and looking. We're not going to get into all that sort of stuff how we did all that. You can go Back to part one links in the show notes over@perpetual traffic.com of course. But then you just sort of gauge it and you see all right, well my high value keywords, my car accident, lawyer, Birmingham, maybe I'm starting to get some cases there. Last click in Google and then you shift maybe some more budget over to meta. Like tell me about that decision making process because this is a bit of a black box because it is every single case or every single law firm or firm is different.
- [30:19]
B
Again, it depends on the right kind of traffic I'm getting. Am I getting some good traffic on some keywords? Are some keywords going, getting me some search term that are too vague and not converting enough? There's still a lot of work there, especially if you use the less expensive road keywords where you have in the beginning of a campaign you have ton of traffic going there and you have to negate, negate, negate again. It's not negate everything because you, when you negate too much you cut the legs of the algo. Also some keywords if you think in the past would negate them with the intent machine would lead to a sign case. So you don't want to be too negative. It's part of the game too. If you see some good result on the Google Ads site and even on the, on the non branded and in the branded, it doesn't mean that your meta campaign it's not working. So you have to find the right balance in between those two traffic sources and search into the source of truth, which is your CRM. The load CRM. CRM is one of the most important thing here. So good traffic but also good CRRM and then CRM. We'll talk after that, the after click and the intake of course.
- [31:40]
A
Yeah, which I do want to get to because that was a big part of part two in our, in our case study series here as well. I guess in an ideal world if you could just advertise brand for the individual law firm on meta and just brand, brand, brand and then all your Google, all you're just scooping up is just branded name of law firm on the Google side and then just rank outrank everybody else that's in that competitive space for that branded search term like Mike Morris law in this particular case or Mike Morris personal injury lawyer or whatever it is. Like that would be a great scenario because then you can really optimize to get that cost per click for the brand name down as much because there's intent that goes along with it. But then there's always Google trying to get more money out of you. So maybe that isn't the best scenario. But that in my mind is like hey, create brand over here on meta and create, you know, the actual last click attribution over on Google. It's just not that simple. But that would be a great scenario. Correct me if I'm wrong.
- [32:48]
B
I think it would be a good scenario to test when you're starting and you know, oh, I can't afford going for non brand campaign so I need one campaign and I need two people to notice me. If you want people to notice you, you go for meta. Remember if you, if you go for meta and you don't go for Google it might counteract your traffic because people would search your name and find other law firm again and you're losing the traffic there. You're paying for traffic that you are losing on Google and you are losing some sign cases too. Remember Also some vendors, they obviously bid on the name. They don't really care. Other law firm usually, sometimes they bid on names. It depends on the relationship. But vendors, it's not really a problem. There's no real law I think in any of the states that block you from bidding on a competitor name. So and the vendors obviously get some cases from those. If they take the website, like car accident lawyer, Alabama, people might think, oh, maybe it's those guys. Then they click and then they convert over there and then they resell the case.
- [33:58]
A
Exactly. So I think a lot of law firms, and when I first started tier 11, believe it or not, our largest client was a personal injury law firm. And it was. So we did obviously mass tort law prior to that point in time. They had 13 offices in and around like the New England area. Still really a very prosperous law firm. But we did all organic. The three pack, I want to say it's the three pack, but it's the, you know, the top three Google ranking for Google at that point in time was Google Places. And our whole thing was get to the top of the Google Places in that ranking because that's where you're going to get the most high intent cases. If you can rank for personal injury lawyer, Providence, Rhode island for example, which was one of our keywords phrases that we ranked number one for for like two years, which was really hard to do by the way. But now it's, you're saying SEO is important. So that's search engine optimization and local search optimization. But you're saying still you've got to have the paid ad in there as well, which is, and then we're, we haven't even talked about the AI side. But no matter what you do, you're going to have to, you're going to have to defend that turf with a paid ad for your brand name. If you're creating the awareness over on Meta, it's simple.
- [35:18]
B
Today you take your phone and you type in car accident lawyer near me and you're going to have all those local search ad on top. Then you have the Google my business so Lex Google places and inside of that you have the paid ads. So the sponsored result into the map and then under it you have the AI result. The AI result might have ads at a point and underneath you have the search sponsored result. And then if you're lucky you are, there are three seats there. Like you are in the top three. Maybe for organic. In the past you had 10. Now you see in the bottom, oh, there are three people and then again more so result. And then you go, you go to next pages. So the organic result is starting to go down and everybody's noticing their traffic, it's coming down. And unless you work on your branding and you might appear into the AI, but it's, it's another topic of, of discussion. But as you can see from, from your phone or it's, it's worse on your phone than on your desktop. But on desktop you, it's obvious also the organic is like going down, down, down, down, down.
- [36:31]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Because Google isn't making any money on that.
- [36:36]
B
Yeah.
- [36:36]
A
Another question that we didn't really even talk about is the RLSA ads. And like a lot of, we get a lot of questions on that when we talk to personal injury law clients. And you always say those ads don't really yield the best leads. What, why, why is that? What, what's your theory on those? And if you're not familiar with those, maybe you can explain it a little bit more. But that seems to be something that comes up over and over again a lot of our discussions.
- [37:06]
B
Yeah, it's the, the look local search ads you can see from on top of the result. If you type personal lawyer, injury lawyer near me or plumber near me, you would see Google guaranteed on top those local search ads, you can find the number and you click the number and it goes to kind of, it's kind of a black box from Google. So you can optimize only for. Okay, I want those practices and I want that territory and I want the call between that and that. In the past, so you received a call directly, you go through call tracking metrics and you can review the call. But in the past you could say, oh, that call is not what I want. It's not the kind of lead I want. Now it's even different. For now, you can't even. They review for you and what they think, what good and what not good. It depends on the practices. Sometimes you can have some cases from there. But remember, you don't control anything you give. Okay, I'm willing to spend 4k per week, 4k cases. And then it gives you those calls that aren't there on Google. You, you can't really tailor your campaign. You can't really, when you want to scale it, you can't really scale. And you don't know how many law firm are doing lsa. So if all the law firm are doing lsa, how is it going? The best. But it's part of the mix and you can do those LSA if you, you, you manage to find. Okay, those LSA are getting me cases under 3,000 or 2,000. Do some LSA, but do some Google and some Meta aside. Don't leave everything to a black box.
- [38:43]
A
Exactly. Just so we understand what we're talking about here is like there's the search results above the actual sponsored result. Well, it's not really search, but it is sponsored results above the sponsored results. So to your point, it's like, you know, in order to get to the organic. I'm looking at it right now, I just did car accident, lawyer near me and I have to scroll 1, 2, 3, like I'm going down four or five scrolls before I actually get to a true organic listing, you know, in my market and by the way, when my old client is actually is number two in Google businesses. So I guess, you know, we must have done something right actually. One and two. Wow, impressed. Anyway, I'll have to do that in the incognito window just to make sure I'm not just.
- [39:26]
B
It's an optimized one.
- [39:28]
A
Yeah, actually, yeah, he is actually number one on the incognito. Anyway, the point is this is like there's a lot of organic searches, but so you do need to create that brand awareness for the name because in an ideal scenario it's like if you have enough awareness, keep in mind Google and Meta know who's going to get in a car accident. It's crazy to think about that, but it is true. That's how much these things like that's the reason why Meta is spending $72 billion this year on AI is to make their algorithm even smarter than it already is. And you know, 100 million, 110 million, I believe in 2027. It's crazy amount of money. So it's like how much do they really know about you? They know about you, they know about everybody who you're trying to target. So don't discount meta because Meta knows just as much as Google does, maybe even more at this point.
- [40:26]
B
Meta. No, no more at Google, no more. And we forget an item which is on the real state of that page is the AI. The AI know also the. What they call now aeo. Yeah, it's like I was testing this this morning and for people are doing that more and more either in chat, GPT or in Google. But they're going to type they need a lawyer. Oh, what are the. The top three criminal lawyer or top three personal injury lawyer near me. You've got to have all those lsa you Google my business. But AI is going to give you for now or kind of organically it going to give you the three names in a description. Those three lawyers are so remember that organic and brand. It's even more important now because you want to be in that top three when people they believe more the AI than maybe the sponsor result. So they, they're going to check it. Oh, those top three. Oh, I know that lawyer because I heard and I saw on Meta they were doing some video or YouTube they were doing some video with value as an example. So you might want to work with it. So don't forget to work on the brand is even more important in AI world than it was before.
- [41:47]
A
And how do you account for that? Obviously any click is a good click if they're going in and recognizing it's a branded search. But I mean how do you factor in a query like who's the best car accident lawyer in Michigan? That kind of thing, which would probably promote like an AEO type of response with Gemini answering that like how do you factor that into the whole sort of landscape of, of paid advertising here? Or is it just that's something that you can't control? Or what would be your advice on that?
- [42:24]
B
When you work on that branding awareness, you make that brand become an authority and AI needs authority to show you into their result. So you have the fact that you work on your paid ads, on your YouTube, on your meta, on the branding awareness. But not only the paid ads is not the only one. You have also to think about your new SEO strategy to target that. So you make more art, you make try to get referenced in multiple media because you want to be an authority using organic also. So social media posts, normal organic, one article, blog post, listicle, make your brand notice if you are not into those results, it's time to focus on that. And in the next few months or few years going to be way, way, way more important than it is.
- [43:24]
A
Yeah, SEO best practices are still as important today as they always were. Authoritative content that's helpful, useful and expansive. You know, longer pieces of content, more authority. Obviously advertising plays into that to a certain degree. You gotta figure that Google factors in who's running ads versus who isn't. But at the end of the day they're trying to get your money for that last click. So you've got to sort of balance all this out. So getting back to my original question, you're in the law space and you're trying to establish more of a digital presence. Would it be meta first at this point for you or would it be sort of a 9010 split or 50 50. Like what, what's your sense? I mean at the very least get your brand. You make sure no other firm is capturing your brand name on Google. Search is my guess but I'm maybe leading the witness here. Like how would you kind of start
- [44:27]
B
that off meta first then if you want the awareness and a branded campaign aside in Google. But yeah, meta first and a solid strategy aside for organic also. But meta first and then you scale your Google Ads or the way you're going. But if you are not noticed, you want to become an authority or you for traffic general in the beginning and you want to find your seat into that location, region whatsoever, make that brand known as an authority. So push it there. You can use also YouTube, it's kind of harder to attribute but you can use it also there are some other law firm that work on their organic by doing video on YouTube which can help also. And then you could help with a little bit of fade. Ads aside, remember that giving value is the way to go. So people notice you like this. It might be a good way to convert after.
- [45:27]
A
That's super interesting because you probably would have answered that question four years ago. Completely different is my guess. You know, I mean that's how much this stuff has changed. That's how much Andromeda has really changed the PI loss base, you know. And you know you're still spending on some of those high intent keywords like hundreds of dollars a click. Like what's just, just curious in the last six months or so, what's the, what's the most you've paid for a click in this space? Because I know we obviously we do a fair amount in the PI law space and you've been doing it for quite some time. But like how expensive is it?
- [46:04]
B
In the thousand? In the thousand. But like when we had that, that part where we paid 800 for a case, sometimes you get a 1000 click and you don't get the case. So it's dependent on Dialgo would think that it's going to be a case but it might be somebody who's shopping and go to another law firm after it. Or again we come on the after click and then we go to the intake and maybe the intake doesn't answer because it's during the night or on the phone. They're like their voice on board and you don't feel cherished or reassured when you call. So you might not convert. You're never going to convert 100% of the call that are going. That's why it's really important to try to convert at that price as much as possible as 40, 50% of those calls. But if you don't, you lost that 1000 click and it go to another law firm. And the only one would benefit, I guess it's Google because it get another
- [47:14]
A
1,000 click, they got their $1,000. Well, we could do a whole other show just on like the after the click experience and maybe we have to have you come back and even talk about that because that's a whole thing unto itself. Because what we've really talked about here is everything just pre click. But so much of the success of this is your follow up, the speed to lead. It's your ability to be able to have you know, folks on board within your organization who are answering the phone, you know, virtually 24, 7. I mean case, you know, in the cases of a car accident law, these things are happening at 2 in the morning. You know, they're not, not in necessarily a 9 to 5 kind of occupation here. So your case managers have to be really on. You've certainly experienced this technical issues that you have between the CRMs and that communicating back with the ad platform, all of that sort of stuff maybe hit on that on a separate episode which is a huge part of the success here. And thankfully with this law firm we're all the work through a lot of those technical issues to start off with, start from sort of a clean slate with really good data. But there were like there was a CRM transition in the middle of this thing which did upset the apple card to a certain degree and you got things back on, on board. So none of this is simple by any stretch. None of it's smooth sailing and you've dealt with a lot of crap when it comes to this kind of stuff. And I would love to talk about that at a later date. Okay, so the debate was in part one and two is that I said you and the team at tier 11 got this client over 3,000 signed cases at about $60,000 per settlement. This is an average in Michigan, you said anywhere between like 30 and 90k. It depends on obviously like the volume and a lot of other factors which would then bring in about 184 million in settlement amounts for those victims. And then that would in turn well over 50, $55 million in revenue. Is that accurate or is it, is it more or is it less? Because those are pretty big numbers.
- [49:21]
B
It depends. Those, those are, those are average, just like Usually minimum I guess would be 20. But the average you can find is like between 30 to 60. And you always have like we discuss, you have a 10k one and then you have a 3 million one. So it should average at a point it's like. And when we talk about 3,000 cases it might be also more because you lose on the attribution. But I think I like that number because you have also mentioned that with the branded you can attract people coming from the billboard or people coming from radio ad or TV ad, but you lose sub because they saw your YouTube and instead of clicking on the number they take their phone and they, they dial the number. So it's an average. That, that average is, it's kind of in, in the ballpark I would say.
- [50:15]
A
The point is, is like this was if you look at the ad spend and you take a conservative estimate, that's a 10x MER, it's a 10x media efficiency ratio, you know, which is income for a revenue for the client themselves. Not to mention the thousands of people who you impacted positively. Like some of the, some of the case studies that they have on their site are just unbelievable, like total tear jerkers. People who are really like just were in a horrible, horrible state. You know, both from a health standpoint, a financial standpoint, like transformed their lives in a bad way. And then this firm was able to sort of come in and assist those individuals. And these are very high value types of, types of clients that we love to work with here because they really do do a good job and are
- [51:06]
B
helping at helping, helping people at the
- [51:09]
A
end of the day. And you know, that's their vision is to help people not just make money but you know, get people the money that they deserve and help and assist them in the process through what can be really, really challenging times. So I credit you so much with all the work that you've done with these guys, law firms that we work with here inside tier 11. Absolutely amazing work and like I said, love to get you back on to talk about sort of the after the click stuff which we could go down a whole other, you know, sort of analysis of because it's 50, 60, 70% of the effectiveness of the advertising on the front end. So Ollie Lee boy, so glad you came back. It's been way too long since you've been on perpetual traffic. Where can people find you? I guess it's tier11.com forward/apply.
- [51:56]
B
Exactly.
- [51:59]
A
See, there you go. Plug, plug for tier 11. Well, you know like this is the kind of stuff that gets us really excited here because this is a four year case study. If you haven't listened to the first part and the second part we go into a lot of the detail here. Ali obviously is the brains behind all of this so would love to hear your comments and rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts would be very much appreciated. Teaches people how to do this stuff the right way through metrics that matter and growth that scales. And you have certainly done both of those things for Mike Morse Law here. So appreciate you coming on Perpetual Traffic.
- [52:36]
B
Thank you. It was great.
- [52:38]
A
Yeah. Bye.
- [52:39]
B
Bye.
- [52:39]
A
All right everyone. So leave links in the show notes for everything that we mentioned here today over at perpetualtraffic.com make sure to check us out over at our YouTube channel as well. Perpetualtraffic.com YouTube so on behalf of the amazing Ollie Lee boy until next show, see ya.
- [52:58]
B
See ya. You've been listening to Perpetual Traffic.