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- [00:01]
Ralph Burns
Hello and welcome to the Perpetual Traffic podcast. This is your host, Ralph Burns, and The founder and CEO of Tier 11 recovering from COVID if you can believe that. Yes, I caught Covid when I was in Italy. So I apologize in advance for the scratchiness of the voice. Today's episode, you'll actually hear me right before I took the test, my wife, who still has tests around the house, suggested that I take a COVID test when I thought it was just sort of allergies. It's just sort of the flu. But anyway, Covid is alive and well, ladies and gentlemen. It really sucks. So anyway, today's show is without the scratchy voice. Take that away. This is a breakthrough show that we did last Friday, right before I contracted Covid with John and myself. And I had an idea that we were going to rebroadcast this over at Perpetual Traffic because it's so good. This is a case study that John did for a low volume, under 10k a month and spend ad account running only Meta and only Google brand. So basically it's all Meta and it's a test for new Advantage plus Shopping campaigns. I want to say Advantage plus Shopping. It's basically Advantage plus Sales campaigns if you get out of the habit of saying Advantage plus Shopping. But anyway, Advantage plus Sales in the automated setting now, a big newsworthy item here is that Advantage plus for sales, for shopping, for all the stuff that you might see right now. Inside Ads Manager for Meta is going away June 25th. So that is just a week or so away as of this recording here. So the point is this stuff is coming and this is. I haven't seen much in the way of training on this. This is the reason why we're doing so many of these shows, to arm you with as much intelligence as possible, because John's been testing this for three months now and he's got $4 million in ad spend under his belt and he has found out that Advantage plus Sales, which is the new automated way in which you're going to be running ads inside Meta, is not as intimidating as you would think. And Meta is fulfilling a lot of those promises that it did promise years and years ago of. Just let the algorithm. I'm doing the air quote thing here, just let the algorithm do its work. And this is one campaign, one ad set, but with 50 ads. It actually uploaded 57 ads, but only 50 actually show. So you'll get to see in real time here exactly how this campaign started to work and what kind of CPAs, what kind of NCAC, everyone used to call it cost per acquisition, we now call it ncac. That is the cost to acquire a new customer. So as well as cac, which is cost to acquire customer, we which is returning and new. So anyway, pretty groundbreaking results here. So I highly recommend you listen to this but then also head on over to our YouTube channel which is quite popular these days, and subscribe to that channel over@perpetualtraffic.com YouTube so without further ado, John and yours truly, take it away guys. You're listening to Perpetual Traffic. Are you looking for new audiences for your business? Well, Snapchat is full of engaged users you just might be missing. And if it feels like your current audiences on all those other social platforms are tapped out, it might be time to diversify over to Snapchat. Here's why. 75% plus of 13 to 34 year olds in over 25 countries use Snapchat. 40% of Snapchatters aren't even on TikTok daily. And it's not just gen zers. In fact, nearly one in four Snapchatters are over the age of 35 and 85% of Snapchatters discovered new products and brands through social ads. And that's 17% higher than non users on the platform. This is an untapped platform. I don't know many people who are advertising on it right now. It's still blue ocean for you because with Snapchat you have the potential to reach a hugely untapped audience and drive incremental growth for your business. So if your paid ad strategy could use a boost, it might be time to put Snap on your roadmap. Snapchat's giving away thousands in free ad credits to new customers like you go to for business.snapchat.com perpetualtraffic to find out if you're eligible. Today is gonna be a cool episode. It's no exception because we're going to be revealing some super cool stuff with Meta. As we talked about here a couple of times recently. I don't know what you guys talked about the last couple weeks when I was in Italy. But anyway, we're getting back to basics here, back to Meta. And if you don't know who John is, John Moran, who is here on the show Flannel shirt guy. John's sort of known as a Google Ads guy. It's like you're sort of like that was your thing. But I've always said like John is so much more than just a Google Ads guy. John is the consummate marketer who understands all platforms and how they all work together and all the stuff that's not paid too.
- [05:22]
John Moran
Yeah.
- [05:23]
Ralph Burns
So when we were talking about getting together and you coming over to tier 11 and joining forces with us, I was just like, yeah, I mean, he's not going to be doing any meta stuff. You're like, oh, yeah, I've been experimenting with meta. I've figured it all out. And now you figured out stuff that even, like, some of the top media buyers in the space are still yet to figure out, but you're actually testing it out, trialing it out. We're seeing results right now, which is super cool. And that's why we do these shows to lift the veil, you know, educate kimono, educate on what's actually going on in the crazy ad lab here, which I don't know if we've done our rebranding yet, but.
- [06:00]
John Moran
We'Re hopping back into. Hop back into the RV with Walter White, into the meth lab, and we're going to start doing some cool stuff.
- [06:07]
Ralph Burns
Yep. And that is the outgrowth. That's what we show here. So anyway, so today's show is all about meta, if I'm not mistaken.
- [06:14]
John Moran
Yeah. So meta. It's interesting. I've talked to some fairly large companies recently and it's kind of shocking how they will most often not necessarily believe, like they're meta reps or maybe I guess like adoption slow. I don't know why. And I think that sometimes why everything is like so weird and shocking when something comes out and everyone has to change strategies because everyone's like been using the strategy for two years. I like it. I don't want to change. I'm going to fight against the current. And that kind of seems to be like the sop. So what I like to do is try to deconstruct it and figure out how to leverage it. And that's kind of what my specialty is. So if you have not been aware by June 25th is the deadline where what meta is trying to achieve is pushing everybody into one campaign type, which is Advantage plus Sales. Used to be called Advantage plus Shopping. You had manual campaigns and vanity sales is kind of the only thing that they will allow you to create. Now you still have your targeting options, even though they're considered optional, and then you have your exclusions, which are also kind of considered optional. So essentially, meta's moving towards what they call creative targeting. So I've been testing this a bunch, but what I wanted to provide today is a real locked in experiment. So we only run Google brand For them. We're only on one campaign type in Meta. We've only been really running meta since January 1st. So I have like a really good locked in use case and I've kind of deconstructed how I believe Meta's recommendation of a one campaign, one ad set all creative campaign type that they want us to all use called Advantage plus Sales. And I'll tell you actually some of their legitimately smart, accurate reasons as to why. And I think that once we start to understand the why, it makes a lot people a lot easier to adopt. Because if I just say, hey, remember or forget everything you understood, you know, about Meta and do it this way, you're probably going to give me a big old middle finger because it's like this works for me. But things are transitioned. We are right now in the transition period. And what the transition period looks like is I'm going to share screen here and I'm going to pull up a different account and I want to show you something that is actually crazy.
- [08:41]
Ralph Burns
So this is the account that we were talking about earlier today. This is small ad spend just starting.
- [08:48]
John Moran
So no, this has been running for at least six months already, but we just started the new way. Yep, got it, got it.
- [08:55]
Ralph Burns
But still small ad spend, what? Couple thousand dollars a month?
- [08:58]
John Moran
We spent six grand all year. I mean, it's only a thousand dollars a month. So I like this because I can really see a lot of big movement because everything's isolated. If I was having like 16 campaigns, $500,000 now spend a million returning customers, little tests kind of get lost in the weeds. So I like testing little when I can know that this is the only thing that could have moved that number over there. So at least I have some really accurate testing that I can extrapolate into larger accounts.
- [09:23]
Ralph Burns
Plus a lot of people that are watching this, they have accounts that are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a day like we do. So like this is like if you're just starting or you have a moderate ad spend under ten grand, this is a great case study for that. But also it allows you to really get granular and see exactly what's going on. And that's the part about this.
- [09:44]
John Moran
And we've most often figured out that what works for the really large companies kind of won't work for the small, but what works for the small always works for the large. So it kind of covers the whole encompassing. Great.
- [09:56]
Ralph Burns
That's a great point, by the way.
- [09:58]
John Moran
Yeah, yeah.
- [09:58]
Ralph Burns
If you can exemplify it here, just imagine what it could do at massive scale.
- [10:03]
John Moran
Yeah. And we actually double the budget this week, and I already have something that can show for that, so it's cool. I have a nice, you know, nice big test, but we got 20 minutes. I'm gonna dive right into it before we go into Q A. Still go slow and methodical, but I want to kind of point out some really important things. So if you're running a meta account, if you click on the the Create button and you click Sales, if your account has not switched over yet, you can still act like it has because it is not forcing you that way, but it still can operate that way. If you have not switched over, when you click Sales and click Continue, you'll still get the option of would you like to do an ADB Shopping, which is now turning into ADB Sales, or a manual campaign, and you're going back to your manual setup. However, if you are in an account that has switched over. Oops, let me just reopen that close window. If you're in an account that has switched over, you click Create, you click Sales, and then it waits like five seconds longer and skips the manual creation, locks you right into advantage plus only, and you are good to go. Maybe 100. All right, cool. You're good to go. So I'm just gonna, I wanted to show that so people are like, no, there's no switch. I still see it. You're lying. This is where it's coming, period.
- [11:11]
Ralph Burns
Exactly.
- [11:12]
John Moran
It will be here. Just, just trust us.
- [11:14]
Ralph Burns
Their drop debt, they have not been very unclear on when that drop date is. This is typical meta, but it will be within the next couple of months. I mean, you sort of have some insider information here is that, yeah, I.
- [11:26]
John Moran
I, I know an engineer and they said basically by the 25th, just, just expect that. I'm like, okay, so we got about basically, you know, 20 or 19 days left. So this is what's nice. You get a couple week. I start. So this is what the campaign type metal wants you to use, which is the ADB campaign. So ADB Sales is all encompassing. It can be lead generation, it can be DPA, ads for shopping, IT, videos, motion graphics, GIFs, everything. So it's all in one campaign. So I said, okay, let's leverage it. Let's figure out how this works. Let's, you know, deconstruct it and figure out how to scale it. So what's interesting is this is since January 1st. So since January 1st all the way up until three days ago. And I did three days ago, so I can match spend. In my example, you'll see that we had a $4,000 worth of, you know, our standard, standard type of campaign, we're selling 120$130 products or gloves. We're getting $42 in app. All right, not bad. Then we ran a mother's Day sale. And the Mother's Day sale, we spent another, you know, thousand dollars and got $33 CPAs. Good. And then we were testing out the way that Meta wants us to do. So we spent yet another thousand dollars and now we're getting $13 CPAs. Much better than the 40, better than almost three times as good as our Mother's day sale. And this thing has only been running for about like three weeks. So this campaign type is utilizing what Meta is going to be forcing everyone into in creative targeting. So I actually, in this campaign's ad set or even the campaign itself, we basically are just optimizing for website purchases, purchase events, standard event. We do not do any sort of capi imports, no cost cap goal. We have our engaged and existing customers. I don't have an existing customer cap. I'm just letting this thing run wide open. No targeting, no exclusions, and let's see what this thing can do. Beautiful. And it asks us to put all of our creative in one big asset. And we have 57, you're capped at 50 ads. So that's the most you can run at once. Now, what we wanted to do with this one is understand how Meta is working. So what I'm looking at here is May 14th through May 20th. This is the first week we launched. And what I noticed is these ads, we were not spending that much. I have my spend column here, I have my results here, and I have my cost per result. So we have some campaigns that are spending 59 and some campaigns that are ads that are spending 59 and some ads that are spending $6. But now we are still getting results on them. However, we're seeing the typical, you give it too many ads, it likes two or three, and then it's going to force spend on it. Our normal SOP is like, okay, that's overspent. Pause that one. Let's redistribute, let's run avo. Finding out why the reason why we shouldn't be doing that is because is kind of what I figured out there this last week. And I'll share the results. So in the first week, when we look at the compare attribution settings, we can see that the ad spend is being delivered most Often to the ads that have click attributed conversions. Makes sense, right? View and gay View View is good, but we want clicks and you'll get some onesie twosies every now and then if you scroll down. But obviously you can see the majority of the ad spend is spending on people who are are clicking. And then I said, okay, if that is the case, then what I should see the week afterwards is much more click attributed over here. Because here's my hypothesis. I believe Meta is going to spend the most amount of money on where they see instantaneous success from the people who are clicking.
- [15:07]
Ralph Burns
Sure.
- [15:07]
John Moran
But the people who are not buying after they click, they're being shown other ads in that ad set. The reason why Meta wants all ads in one ad set and the reason why it wants Creative to do the targeting is because it's trying to build a little mini funnel. And if you all remember our, I think a few weeks ago when I shared the 10 pieces of creative that Meta wants us to. The Meta wants us to, to utilize. Which is why here in the, in the tier 11 slack, this is where meta this is back on May 9th, so we're already basically a month after that. But it wants all of these pieces of Creative inside of one ad set so that it can go through and start to tell a story. Here's who we are, so why we're different. So what the product is, it's what people believe about us. This is the features and benefits of it. This is face to camera, which is different campaign type whitelisting. Other people are even saying we're amazing. This is positioning test inside of like the ecosystem and also ugc. So they don't all have a particular reason why you would create them. But Meta wants you to have content diversification. So the content diversification we believe is because of this rule or this theory here that it's going to start to show ads to the users who are clicking and say hey, you're clicking, you're buying. The people who are not buying. Did you know all of this other things like hey, this after a thousand days, this is what the glove looks like. This is, you know how we sew our gloves twice. This is, you know, the, a cool picture that ended up working. This is how we actually, this is where our plant is made in the United States right here in Vermont since 1920. So now you're like, oh, these are pretty cool things. Like it's not just like 30% off, 20% off sale. What about today? Come on, we are educating you and.
- [16:48]
Ralph Burns
You'Re getting awareness about this product, which is a premium priced product.
- [16:54]
John Moran
Yeah.
- [16:54]
Ralph Burns
You're going to get some clicks and buys. Those are probably people that are warm traffic audience is probably aware of the solution in this particular case, this particular type of glove. Yeah. However, you would expect Meta to go out and capture them immediately, which is what we're seeing right here. However, not everyone's going to be like that. Not everyone's like in market to buy. Well, the vast majority are in that, that zone of indifference. I don't really know much about it. You know, I've got good gloves right now. You know, I don't really need new gloves. I need to be educated.
- [17:26]
John Moran
Yeah. And it's, it's the funnel again. You got cold.
- [17:29]
Ralph Burns
Many more explaining anything groundbreaking here, but we're just saying like, yeah, not everybody ready to buy.
- [17:37]
John Moran
Right.
- [17:37]
Ralph Burns
So how are you going to expand that market? And Meta has been seeing this for a long time. Oh, just throw them all in and we'll figure it all out.
- [17:46]
John Moran
Yeah.
- [17:46]
Ralph Burns
Hasn't really worked up until right now.
- [17:49]
John Moran
Yeah. And what's funny is Meta's so smart because if I hop onto to Meta or if I hop onto Instagram and I see nothing but 10% off, 30% off BOGO. And now it's just like I'm just getting the crap kicked out of me. I'm not actually discovering anything. I'm just getting sale ads. So they don't want that. They don't want the user experience to drop. They want you to learn, grow and engage.
- [18:07]
Ralph Burns
They're assuming that you're ready to buy. Like that's a bottom of funnel, middle of funnel, wherever you want, whatever you want to call it. It's like people don't necessarily do what you want them to do. Like there is going to be top of funnel people that are going to buy on that, but the vast majority probably are not.
- [18:20]
John Moran
Yeah, right.
- [18:21]
Ralph Burns
So this all makes sense.
- [18:23]
John Moran
So then we said, okay, if I see a whole bunch of one day engage view conversions, it means that the people who are engaging here that are now being shown ads, I would expect, if this is what Meta is doing, I expect to now start to start to see click engage conversions over here in this column, which means they are clicking and buying. The people who have not bought are now being shown other ads and they are view engage conversions. But I should see more click engage conversions next week. So far I see one here and nothing else. So now let's fast forward the next.
- [18:55]
Ralph Burns
Week so if you're following along, you're hearing the audio of this what we just.
- [18:59]
John Moran
Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry, I forgot.
- [19:00]
Ralph Burns
May 14th to the 20th, inside Meta, you've got two ads which are basically scooping up all the bottom of funnel conversions, probably because they're from the warm traffic audience. But all the other ads, the other 50 that you have in there, you upload 57 and only 50 would show the other ones are all getting some kind of engagement, but not really any click conversions yet.
- [19:22]
John Moran
Only engaged, only view conversions. Right? Like remarketing almost. Yeah, kind of like remarketing. And so I said okay then if that remarketing of new users is going to work, well I hope they start converting. And so I'm expecting to see at the week afterwards. So let's fast forward one week. We went from 14th to the 20th. Now we're gonna look at the 21st through the 27th. And now we see exactly what we were expecting. Now we're starting to see the same ads in the next week. Not only do my first two have still click engage conversions, but now I have, I went from 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. I have got a five rows of click engage conversions. But if we scroll down now further down, I'm seeing none down here still. And I'm seeing, I'm seeing really nothing in the reach. Which means if I look at the, the people who are spending less than like $3, I'm not really seeing anything. And that makes sense. They're only spend less than a dollar on majority of the ads. Again, we would say hey, pause those, but we would start to kill things that aren't spending. However, if we look at the entirety of this campaign all the way up until yesterday, this is what it looks like now. Now every row has at least one click engage conversion to 75345. And now I'm seeing seven day click conversions roll in on almost every ad, whether we spent $600 on it or 18 bucks. Now if I scroll down from here, I'm now sub$10, but I'm still seeing a click engage conversion. I'm click engage conversion. I click a click click all the way down to where I'm spending now. $1.21. I get a view engage conversions. If I spend 2 bucks, I can see a click engage conversion. But it might have taken 28 days. Aha. We start seeing the X and Y axis of the longer amount of time and the more ads, the more engagement you're getting on them. Every, every media buyer is like three days. If it's not spending, kill it. Like we are fighting against what Meta is trying to do. So now I have, it's interestingly, I now have a bunch of click engage conversions. And because it's going down in my spend, my CPA for these ads here, my cost per result is 15 bucks, 14 bucks, 12 bucks. 12 bucks, 15 bucks, 17 bucks, 7 bucks, 19 bucks, 3 bucks, 18 bucks. All the way down into like 5, 4, 3, 3, 2, 1, 1. Okay, so why is it now that the campaign that has all the ads is now actually beating my other campaign I ran for five months trying to optimize, and this is beating it by 75 less cost per acquisition. Okay, so now let's say, fine, fine, John. Okay. It's not at capi. Import. I have no idea if these are cold. I have no idea if these are returning. Prove it. Okay, so I said, you know what I'm gonna throw.
- [22:05]
Ralph Burns
I was gonna ask you that.
- [22:06]
John Moran
I know, right? Because I would ask.
- [22:10]
Ralph Burns
You're just recycling old users. People have bought, Bought, I don't know, one of their other products at one point in time, John.
- [22:16]
John Moran
Exactly.
- [22:16]
Ralph Burns
So I said, all right, customers, they can't possibly be.
- [22:19]
John Moran
Exactly. So I said, you know what, let's test this. Let's take it from a amount spent of $45 a day and let's crank it up to $150 a day. So let's triple the budget in a week. So I see my amount spent go up in this last 14 days.
- [22:34]
Ralph Burns
You're a gambling man.
- [22:35]
John Moran
I am. So I see my. I see my conversions kind of go through. This is after Memorial Day. All of a sudden, boop, pop right back up, up. So now I'm having the best day, according to Meta. The last three days that I have been spending the highest, the last three days in my campaign of brand. Oh, this is so my brand campaign. My brand campaign. I went from spending 14 bucks to make 250, and then it peaked to 129 to make 1400.
- [23:01]
Ralph Burns
How is that possible? That's over on Google. They're not related, John.
- [23:04]
John Moran
I know.
- [23:05]
Ralph Burns
Right, says Ralph. Exactly.
- [23:09]
John Moran
So now at this last 14. Exactly.
- [23:12]
Ralph Burns
Right.
- [23:13]
John Moran
Last 14 days, I have gone up and increased my cost from 280 to 530. So I spent an additional 300 and made an additional 2200 bucks. Okay, so if I'm pushing into cold, I should see more branded conversions. And then let's check the week over week. New customers, we went from 523 to 529. We had 100 new customers, 104, 523 and 529. That is 523 to 529. Okay, then let's look at the next week of 5 32, 65, which is now the 53265 where we scaled up also in Google Ads, 530 to 65 when we saw our brand starting to capture. And now we have 157 new customers. So we went from 104 to 157. That is 104. That is 53 more new customers. New customers, 53 more new. Our total investment is 300 more plus an additional. I'd say like maybe thousand dollars more or. Yeah, probably about a thousand dollars more. Ish. Let me just check. Last seven days compared. Yeah. Oh, it's a 350. So we did 750. Okay, so 350 plus three. So 650 more dollars total in 650. So soup to nuts, everything. The $650 in that brought us 53 more new customers. 650 divided by 53 is $12.26. And if we look at our analytics of our AOV, we have $110 AOV.
- [24:50]
Ralph Burns
That's not too bad.
- [24:51]
John Moran
No. So that's basically almost like an incremental 10x on a tiny. I don't know how else to prove this.
- [25:02]
Ralph Burns
It's very clear to me, but I think a lot of the viewers might have to watch this a couple of times. But the bottom line is this is like you proved with my sarcastic comments like, John, you're just recycling your old customers. You proved beyond a shadow of a doubt using the CRM. And they don't have data suite, they don't have capi import, they don't have anything. This is early stage stuff. This is just really relying on literally like tiny ad spend on Google, but a little bit more ad spend obviously on Meta. But Meta is the one that's driving everything forward here. And you proved it by going in the back end of Shopify. Say these are new customers that I'm getting for $12.26. Was that what it was?
- [25:41]
John Moran
Yeah, $12.26. And when I look at even one more additional layer of fun, if we look inside of the first click channel in the last seven days, as an example, Facebook has 11. Google paid as 30.
- [25:58]
Ralph Burns
Yep.
- [25:58]
John Moran
So 11. And I'm only running brand, so it's kind of interesting to see 30 and 5. But we have 30 plus 11 and then direct 64. And the week before that we had 8 and 16. So and. And not even direct. And you can See, there's not a massive amount of existing customers. Okay. There's. There's nothing. We actually had more returning customers than I think we had new in like Klaviyo, which is. Makes a lot of sense. So it's kind of cool that I can even see all the way down to the sub levels. The only thing that are growing are Facebook paid and Google paid, which I know is non brand Facebook and branded Google, they both lifted. I put 350 in each and then got 12 new customers at 60 in the first week of testing this. I mean, I. IV of what?
- [26:41]
Ralph Burns
125?
- [26:42]
John Moran
109. Yeah.
- [26:43]
Ralph Burns
109. Okay.
- [26:44]
John Moran
Yeah. And these gloves will last 20 years. Like we don't really have a lot of returning customers. They might buy another pair like once in a while. But it's not just like something people are coming back every month and subscribing. And this is like I'm making 100 sales, $120 sales, $110 sales. With $12 NCAX and I can double the budget in a week, all with one campaign, one ad set. No targeting, no exclusions, all of the ads and let this thing run wild.
- [27:10]
Ralph Burns
What's an allowable NCAC for this one?
- [27:13]
John Moran
Oh, 45.
- [27:14]
Ralph Burns
45. So you are. You're four times below that. So you have massive amounts to scale. So that's the top end. That includes gross profitability, some opex and then desired margin. Do you add that in there as well? Desired net profitability?
- [27:31]
John Moran
Not yet.
- [27:32]
Ralph Burns
Not yet. Not that.
- [27:33]
John Moran
So I'm helping the son who inherited the company from his father and so.
- [27:37]
Ralph Burns
Sorting it all out.
- [27:38]
John Moran
Those are things that. What's nice is this is a very, very efficiently run business because it's been a business for like 20 years. It's never really gone digital though. So that's what's kind of nice is I. Some of them we're kind of starting.
- [27:49]
Ralph Burns
From, I don't think.
- [27:51]
John Moran
Yeah. So like their costs and their, their opex and all that stuff has been really hammered out to like no ad spend. So if I come in and make sure that incremental cost is costing the company to acquire more is very small. It's gorgeous.
- [28:05]
Ralph Burns
Those are some of the most exciting companies to work with.
- [28:07]
John Moran
I know.
- [28:07]
Ralph Burns
So rewarding. You have a very successful business offline. You've proven the fact that the market wants what you have, but you have yet to break into the online world. There's not that many businesses that are in that situation, but you would be surprised at how many actually are. But the Point is that you've already proven out the offer. The offer is the big thing. It's like, does the market actually want it? This is much different than, hey, this is a startup. Hey, we're going to try and sell these things online the first time ever. We don't have any sales. We don't have any sales history. Yeah, you've got some history here of, of what products sell the best.
- [28:43]
John Moran
Yeah. And if we look at the top line too, like you're saying this is last three days year over year. Can't fake 120 or 130 more orders and 115 more, you know, 120 more gross sales, 113 more net sales. Yeah, I mean it's cranking. So I mean every day of the week. Yeah.
- [29:02]
Ralph Burns
I mean unless you have horrible profitability and massive cost of goods sold like one hundred twenty AOV with a twelve dollar in cac, you're winning.
- [29:13]
John Moran
And it's so funny because it's like we have to sell 120 gloves and it's like, but I'm gonna give you 50 bucks a day on Medico. Figure it out. And it's like, and that's what's funny is like this crap is working if we just understand the platforms and how to leverage them. Not think about that.
- [29:30]
Ralph Burns
Go on Amazon, search for work gloves. Like you can buy workloads for like 10 bucks, 12 bucks. The Ace hardware down the street.
- [29:37]
John Moran
Exactly.
- [29:38]
Ralph Burns
Like you're talking about a 10x premium and you're doing it with just a 50 different ads. In essence creating a digital funnel inside a meta campaign for Advantage plus Shopping or Advantage plus Sales. I keep saying, yeah, asc, it's Advantage plus Sales now. This is actually what they've been promising for years and now you're actually starting to see it. And this is cool because it's like on such a small scale and like the scalability of this account is insane.
- [30:09]
John Moran
Yeah. I mean even the Hammock company that I referenced sometimes we've been doing this same, the same methodology for the Hammock company. And just to reiterate because I think this is how I shared how to do creative testing in this new environment. So I think that was important for everyone to see and, and that, remember that example? I don't remember. It was back in April.
- [30:29]
Ralph Burns
Yeah.
- [30:30]
John Moran
Since then again, we have not deviated from the strategy because I believe that longevity is important.
- [30:36]
Ralph Burns
And this is for a company that sells very, very high end, similar kind.
- [30:40]
John Moran
Of like bespoke hammocks, four or $5,000.
- [30:43]
Ralph Burns
Four or $5,000 hammocks you're not going to buy. There's no. I mean, I guess you can go back and buy another one, but, like, the AOV is the ltv, Right?
- [30:52]
John Moran
Right. Basically. Right.
- [30:53]
Ralph Burns
Yeah.
- [30:54]
John Moran
And so. And so what we saw is, since the April 16 to June 5, I've scaled this account 87%. I've added $115,000 in ad spend in the last. No, April of May, basically about two and a half months. So 115 grand. In two and a half months, the 115 grand materialized into approximately $900,000.
- [31:18]
Ralph Burns
Pretty good.
- [31:18]
John Moran
101% up to 1.7 million.
- [31:21]
Ralph Burns
115,000 into 900,000 in sales. That's what you're saying?
- [31:26]
John Moran
Yeah. Well, let's just do this. What was it before? I need. Actually, I'm not. Good. Oh. February 24th through April 15th. So let's just look at February 24th to April 15th. It was 7:14 and now. So 7:14 up to 17. 21 million bucks.
- [31:50]
Ralph Burns
Million bucks.
- [31:50]
John Moran
Okay. Yeah. At a million dollars into this account and we can see there's the Vista, up 119. There's the Throne, up 158. Half million dollars in Throne sales is $5,000 hammock. And we did it all with these four campaigns.
- [32:05]
Ralph Burns
Simple. But also cappy import on these.
- [32:09]
John Moran
Correct. Cappy import for first click. Exactly. So there's a little bit more advanced in there, but I mean, if you're like, hey, give me a million dollars more in the next two and a half months. It's like, I'm gonna do it with two campaigns. You're like, you're an idiot. You know, it's like funnel build, and that's working against what Meta wants.
- [32:25]
Ralph Burns
Let me do level one through level five traffic. That was the way seven or eight years ago, but not anymore.
- [32:33]
John Moran
That was the way up to last week.
- [32:38]
Ralph Burns
Good point. There's so many media buyers that are still doing it that way, which. That's okay, but because this is a relatively new thing, like, there is literally like a funnel inside of the headset.
- [32:50]
John Moran
Yeah. Not all accounts have even switched over to what we've been testing for months now, but hopefully, if you're, you know, a big fan of us and know that we're actually the best digital markers in the history of the world, you're already got. You're already there.
- [33:01]
Ralph Burns
That's, you know, I'm just kidding. It's sort of a given.
- [33:04]
John Moran
It's like. No, we already were. John, should I get into some Q&A.
- [33:07]
Ralph Burns
Here's the thing, it's like we'll definitely get to the Q and A, but this is the stuff that's being tested and then shown. A lot of this is. I have not seen this anywhere else. If you try and look for this anywhere on the interwebs, you're going to be hard pressed to find any sort of results like this. I think this is the kind of video that you're going to look back on a year from now like wow, like that was so bleeding edge and not to like pump up our tires here. But I mean this is the real stuff. This is actually how it works. But I mean as an old school meta media buyer, this has been something that's been promised for so long and it's just so cool to see it actually happen. And it's like you're proving it. You're not even doing it like any like fancy tricks like Happy Import, a feeder strategy or there's no data suite on these accounts. Like all of that stuff is like.
- [33:56]
John Moran
I do a feeder strategy on Yellow Leaf but this small one I can't afford feeder strategy.
- [34:02]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, not yet. Well, you don't need to.
- [34:05]
John Moran
No, but it was funny is like you said, there's nothing out there. I, I did some hunting around for fun and this is, I, I got nerd giggly just because you know, I'm a big nerd myself. But there was, there's some people out there that are even doing this. Like this is a person from Grow my ads two weeks ago and he's like, there's this guy named John Moran. He launched a feeder strategy. He's like how I scaled 109, 22 days using feeder strategy and he did a 12 minute video and everything that I taught this guy how to do. I've never met this guy before. He just gave me a shout out on YouTube and I was like, I'm famous. Yeah. And it's fun for me because I'm a nerd.
- [34:36]
Ralph Burns
You should have Google alerts for your name.
- [34:39]
John Moran
I know, right? That's a probably a good idea.
- [34:41]
Ralph Burns
But it's interesting.
- [34:42]
John Moran
It's like it's it when you have the people I've never met before popping out testimonial videos on how it's working for them. It's like this is the leadership that we can provide. Yeah. You can't get this anywhere else.
- [34:52]
Ralph Burns
Sorry to say it, but it is what it is. Like you know, we're just stating a fact here, John. So anyway, pretty excited to be sharing this stuff with you every single week. All right. Hope you enjoyed that session with John and myself. Before we get into Q and A, we're going to pause here for a word from our sponsor. Hey, you know, when I was first at a consultant actually doing the stuff that we're doing right now in Tier 11, one of the first tools that I learned how to use was from a company called Unbounce and they are now a sponsor of Perpetual Traffic. And the reason is is that their landing pages and how co quickly you can create those landing pages without having to consult your designer, your developer. With drag and drop builders now built in AI copywriting, it's even better than when it was 10 years ago when I first started using it on my own to create my very first landing pages. These guys are absolutely amazing. They've got conversion optimized templates giving you everything you need to launch your pages on your own without developers. In fact, Unbounce is the leading landing page platform for building, testing and optimizing high converting pages powered by data from over 2 billion conversions. That is 2 billion conversions with a B. That means they know what converts. So if you want to Convert more customers one platform and launch pages fast, Unbounce is offering PT listeners a special offer. They are giving you the PT listeners 10% off when you enter coupon code PT10OFF over at unbounce.com forward/pt. So head on over to unbounds.com forward/pt Enter code PT10OFF and cash in today Convert more customers with one platform. Launch pages fast. You shouldn't have to wait for your designers and developers to build and test your landing pages. Get started with Unbounce today. Questions. We're 305 right now. Let's do it. 25 minutes of questions. If you want to get a question asked, definitely drop it in the comments. Let's get going. Brain Bite has a question. Hey John, what's your take on vibe marketing? Seems like the new buzzword everywhere. It's just rebranded emotional marketing or something actually different. Would love your perspective.
- [37:08]
John Moran
I've never heard of vibe marketing, but I can probably disseminate what they're trying to do there. What that would kind of tell me is that the. I would imagine it's more on the creative side where you're talking about happy good vibes and making them feel very good. You should have an element to that. I call it philanthropy. So like if your company ever does good for something, you want to include that. So it's like some people feel good about purchasing or engaging or making sure that they're working with companies they like. But I would like to learn more about the vibe marketing. I've just never actually heard of it yet.
- [37:42]
Ralph Burns
Vibe marketing is a term describing a new approach to digital marketing that leverages AI to create and scale campaigns quickly and efficiently, focusing on emotional resonance and speed.
- [37:50]
John Moran
I was way off.
- [37:51]
Ralph Burns
Well, no, no.
- [37:52]
John Moran
Okay.
- [37:52]
Ralph Burns
We're too far off. Emotional resonance and speed.
- [37:55]
John Moran
Okay. You know, yeah, it makes sense, I think. You know what's interesting though, is that's kind of what we're seeing too. It's like, if I can make you feel warm and fuzzy about buying this product, you'll buy it.
- [38:04]
Ralph Burns
Well, exactly. Like what we talked about. Like, you uploaded 50 different ads with 50 different messages. You don't know which message is going to resonate with which, which person at what time. Like, we used to sort of do creative is absolutely everything.
- [38:17]
John Moran
Yeah.
- [38:17]
Ralph Burns
That's why we, you know, bought a creative agency, like merged a creative agency, the best one that we could find on the planet. Because we know creative is driving all this. Yes. We're talking about media buying strategies. We didn't even talk about the creative. That's sort of behind the scenes here.
- [38:32]
John Moran
Right. So super important. And that's what's cool, is we're having internal meetings about this so that when we do launch a new client or we launch a rebranding or when we launch new ads, it's with this new model. Like, we're already up to speed on what Meta wants us to leverage while people's accounts haven't even changed over yet. Yeah, it's insane.
- [38:49]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, it's emotional resonance, I think really with just vibe marketing is all about. Anyway. Good question. John Moran, student from Spain. Hey.
- [38:57]
John Moran
Hey.
- [38:58]
Ralph Burns
Hey, John. I'm planning to use your one campaign, one ad set, multiple ad strategy for plastic surgery clinics in Spain. Any recommendations how I should approach it?
- [39:06]
John Moran
Yes. You know what's funny is the multiple ad strategy. Your CPM is going to dictate what level of the funnel that you're going to engage with. So when you're talking about plastic surgery.
- [39:19]
Ralph Burns
Super important what you said there, by the way. Like, when you launch that campaign, you'll see some CP. CPMs will be vastly different. The ones that convert immediately, are you going to be your higher CPMs and the ones that are sort of top of funnel. More like, you know, feeder strategy. First click awareness. Much less. So correct me if I'm wrong.
- [39:39]
John Moran
No, you're 100. Right. What meta was the engineer I was speaking with Wednesday was saying the seizure there for a second, I did. I was like, was it yesterday? As I don't think it's time. Well. And I'm like, literally, I'm like, what did I do that day that won't tell me which day it was? Right. I was like, I had a meeting with them. That must have been a Wednesday, so. Wednesday. Yeah. So they. They basically said that. And it's not a 100 set in St. Obviously, there's a lot of different variations, like industry, how much competitiveness, and that kind of stuff. But generally, the higher the CPMs, the lower the funnel and the higher the cost. And lower the CPM means more awareness. Now, you're not gonna. You're not gonna look at that ad, be like, that's bad because someone saw me for the first time and didn't immediately get plastic surgery. That must suck. No, the more you can do yourself and your client a favor by not looking at an ad and say, that didn't work, because we assume. Assumed it didn't because Meta told us it may not have, the better off you'll be. If what you have to do look is. Let's just say Meta didn't exist. Let's say the Internet didn't exist and you brought your plastic surgeon in front of John Moran. And I said, hey, I'd like to get a tummy tuck. Is this good? And should I even do it? Name 10 things that you would want to share with me that would allow me to understand, gain my attention, gain my interest, and allow me to make a decision. Those are what you need to produce in creative. If it's a ton of ugc, I don't care. If it's, you know, a ton of why I'm the best doesn't help me. So that's where we have to look at, is you're back to, you know, your avatar development days of 2017 with Ryan Dice, where you're looking at what's important to them, why, and making sure that all of those are included. So 99 of your first job is going to be creative, and then the media buying will kick in later.
- [41:28]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, that. If you didn't hear that, that. Let's say that again. 99 of your job is creative. Was it 90 or 99?
- [41:38]
John Moran
99. Really? I mean, because it's like 9.
- [41:40]
Ralph Burns
It's like, if you could say, I was so stunned, I was like, 99 it is.
- [41:45]
John Moran
And here's how I got that. The 1% of your job is, can you launch a campaign with an ad set? You're done.
- [41:51]
Ralph Burns
Yeah. If you can do that, you're a media buyer.
- [41:54]
John Moran
Way to go.
- [41:56]
Ralph Burns
The hard part is everything before that.
- [41:58]
John Moran
And everything after that.
- [42:00]
Ralph Burns
True.
- [42:00]
John Moran
Exactly. Good. So because now you're going to be iterating on different creative types, we'll have all the stuff that as this progresses like step one is 99 creative. That's why I said the media buying is actually going to come after that.
- [42:11]
Ralph Burns
It's exciting stuff. Yeah, like we're on the bleeding edge here. But like we've been saying this for a long time. I mean creative creates the audiences, but now creative creates the conversions.
- [42:20]
John Moran
Remember when I was like Mr. Tinfoil Hat when I'm like met us getting rid of manual and I was like okay John, sit down you little weirdo. He's up scaring people, not you. I mean like the industry, it was just like huh. My meta rep said it wasn't. I'm like tried launching a manual campaign. Like what? Yeah.
- [42:39]
Ralph Burns
You heard it here first. Ladies and gentlemen, Stuart Little. I think this is the store.
- [42:42]
John Moran
Little. I know.
- [42:43]
Ralph Burns
How you doing, Stuart? Strategy for B2B Health Care Equipment lead generation campaign. Okay, what platforms would work great. Also what strategy do you use in initial stage on Google and keyword types to use is LinkedIn types to use is LinkedIn good.
- [43:00]
John Moran
Okay, so I would actually test Google first. Meta is you're okay with paying the haystack. We're buying a haystack because you believe there's a lot of needles in there. Google is I only want to pay for the suspected needles who are looking for me. So that's how to think about it. So I would start not only but I would start on Google first and I would then run a a meta advantage plus campaign with bottom of the funnel remarketing type of content because you want it to remarket it will do whatever it wants. The creator will dictate the targeting. So bottom of the funnel make sure that your ad spend initially is 802080 on Google, 20 on Meta because meta can retarget but also we can go cold if it has too much money. So leave it choked a little bit. So it has to go warm warm and then use bottle on the funnel content. So it also has to go warm now. And Google you're going to look for things that are talking about the. You're trying to find qualifications. So B2B health care equipment's too broad. What I would ask, what I would look for is subset subsectioning that off into different product category types and then having different campaign slash ad groups Looking for things like manufacturer, distributor, bulk mass. You're trying to find the people who don't want a healthcare equipment like a radiology scanner. I don't even know if that's a thing. But now you're looking for things like healthcare. I am. I'm just pulling out of my ass.
- [44:23]
Ralph Burns
MRI machine, I don't know. Sure.
- [44:26]
John Moran
I don't know the scanner, beeper, I don't know. Syringe. I'm just gonna name make up now. So you're looking for like healthcare equipment manufacturers, healthcare equipment warehouses. You know, you're looking at warehouse. Bright idea. Actually don't do that one. I would actually just use chat GPT, which is great for keyword research. Don't just paste it, but keyword research. Saying if I was a company looking for this company, give me ideas of what they would search for. Find the nuggets that are qualifications and then use those. To start, I would use manual bidding. Bid high like 10, 15, 20, 30 CPCs, but use low daily budgets so your risk exposure is low and then test to see if your placements and your positioning are good. Remember, your CPC dictates the matched type of the searched term to your keyword. Means that if you have a $5 bid on healthcare equipment, you get things like why is my X ray machine glitching? On a high cpc, you're gonna get healthcare equipment manufacturer because those are coming in at $40amatched click. So that's where you want to look at manual, high cpc, low daily budgets. Going after qualified keywords. You find ideas on the ChatGPT, remarket them on meta, bottom of the funnel content. Start there.
- [45:38]
Ralph Burns
I would recommend we did a screen share on this from a call two weeks ago that we rebroadcast over on Perpetual Traffic that aired today. It's the one where we actually go through how we use AI and Nick's part on constructing Google campaigns using. Oh yeah, specifically in the software space. I would go check that out. On Perpetual Traffic.
- [46:00]
John Moran
It may or may not be upon a time.
- [46:02]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, I just edited it like 40 minutes ago. So it might not be up yet. However, by the time. Yeah, keep refreshing Conventional traffic. And it's how Tier 11 uses AI and it's actually the first 20 minutes talk exactly about what you just talked about here. So super good question. All right, so Stuart Little's got a question here. Feeder strategy, does it work for B2B?
- [46:26]
John Moran
Yes. Now you have to have a high amount of conversions for it to work. And so feeder strategy is mainly to and Google Ads to make sure that you're not overspending for only conversions where Google's like I'll sell you the click for a buck, but I'll sell you the lead for $10. And that's because they're artificially increasing the CPC when they believe a person is going to convert. Now if you're like hey, I'm spending a lot of money, I got a lot of leads coming in, I'm using a T row as a tcpa. Looks like my goal is being met. It's hard to kind of grow and scale. That's when you would use feeder strategy. So making sure that you start to buy more traffic rather than just conversions to see if you can gain a 30%, 40% increase in your traffic for only a 5 to 10% more cost. That's what feeding it maybe colder users. So yes, if you're in that situation, I would use it makes sense.
- [47:08]
Ralph Burns
John Moran's dog is here every week. Every week. The most loyal follower of the show. Anyway, good to see John Moran's dog here. What are your thoughts on AI Max? Have you had a chance to test it or do you see potential in it?
- [47:21]
John Moran
I have not had a chance to test it. I am super excited because I think AI Max is already doing what DSA and BR Match are doing independently. So what you're basically Aimax is just combining your broad match and your DSA together to have essentially I want to go in this direction with these type of search terms. This is what my website looks like. Can you find relevance there and scale the relevance when you see conversions. I would highly, highly, highly recommend that you do a import from clicks during this test because AI Max is going to feed itself whatever data it can find. If it finds bad data, it will feed us up bad data and it will scale bad data. If you are importing the conversions on only good quality leads or maybe some sales on some items you want, maybe you don't make sure it can see only what you want it to see so it can try to grow and scale that. But if you're like hey I got, I'm tracking like my add to carts, my big in checkouts, my conversions and you throw AI Max, your add to cars will blow up. I don't know what will happen after that. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. But it's going to optimize for what it can get like performance Max. So just make sure that if you are doing import from clicks server sides better make sure that you do that. But yeah, I'm actually super excited because it's doing it anyway. And I like both. I like Broad Match to explore. I like DSA to also explore what I didn't think of. So I'm actually really excited. I just haven't had a chance to test yet. I'm waiting to get access.
- [48:36]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, sounds like a, a tier 11 live or a team 11 ad lab show right there when you start testing it. John Moran's dog Once again, what's your best recommendation for encouraging clients with fixed monthly budgets to transition to a more flexible budget approach as long as their goals are being met? Met.
- [48:53]
John Moran
I would ask why you said the key word there to me is their goals are being met. My question is if their needs are being met, why change it now? It sounds probably stupid, but if we're saying change it from a fixed monthly budget to more flexible, do you need flexibility as sometimes I need to go up and down or flexible as in I really want to get them to scale. There could always be reasons why they wouldn't want to or not even maybe enjoy scaling. So I think I need a little bit more information about what flexible means to then tell you. But if you're like hey, goals are being met, you kind of, you dotted that I and crossed that T. Yeah, what's the need? Yeah, I'm always goal based. And you're like hey, we don't need any more goals. I'm like then why change it?
- [49:30]
Ralph Burns
Just keep going.
- [49:31]
John Moran
Just keep cruising.
- [49:32]
Ralph Burns
John Moran's dog, what approach do you recommend for analyzing and determining the most effective budget? Split between Meta and Google with the channel mix tailored to different industries and client profiles.
- [49:41]
John Moran
Yeah. So this one you're talking about. Mmm. So we don't have enough time to fully explain MMM because there's so much involved. I mean nor beam charges I think 80 grand for mmm models. So we're talking about like a 10 person study. But the theory of it is and what we always try to achieve and in any mmm. I don't do it for Norping, but I do it, you know, as a, as a standard operating procedure for how omnichannel market. Sure. But you're looking at benchmarking your attributable sales. You should have data suite because that will also demystify a lot of the overlap and almost forget everything you knew about conversion tracking and platform and said if I couldn't track a conversion here, would I still make those ads spend increases and decreases to these audiences. Then you kind of see like oh you know what, like I wouldn't add a lot more money into brand if 80 of them are my returning customers, like maybe I don't just hemorrhage all my cash there. Maybe I don't waste all my profitability on the last step. ROAS is 12 million, but is it actually helping? So that's where you have to kind of think about it. But that's the kind of the basis of it is where's my cold traffic? Where is my awareness? Is it an established industry? Is it not? Do I need to build an audience or can I capture one? Those are all things that we're talking about that go into. Mmm. But that's the thing is almost like humanizing your marketing again without the data and then analyzing the data from the top side on the other side. Yeah, makes sense.
- [51:05]
Ralph Burns
Soren Tutu has a question here. I don't think he's seen him on this show before. I'm having a hard time understanding why Meta is distributing so many conversions, sometimes even more than the total number of orders in the back end of Shopify. How can we judge based on that?
- [51:20]
John Moran
Yep. So I almost exclusively now, whenever I possibly can or as fast as I can get the client switched over, I move into capi imports off of first click server side edge based deployment. Now, Meta is model data. It means this is what they believe happened. So they may believe that more or less than what actually happened did happen. Which is why it's not a great representation of the growth of your company and not even a real great representation of the efficiency of all of your marketing. What it is trying to estimate is how efficient is it at that stage of the funnel. Now when you have one campaign and the entirety of your ads into one, one into one campaign is still going to be model data. Even if you import it, it's still going to be model data.
- [52:06]
Ralph Burns
However, the first 20 minutes or so we showed this how you are using that with a very small Google Ad spin and you're double checking it with the CRM or with Shopify the back end.
- [52:16]
John Moran
Exactly. So you always want to have multiple points of triangulation is they all will be different but if all of them are 20, better. Hey, you know, there you go. So that's you're looking at I don't care what the number is, I care if the number goes up or down.
- [52:30]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, that's it. That's a very good answer to that question. Because there's a lot of aspects to that that you could go down the whole rabbit hole, like why it works the way that it works. But just taking a step back, if you're not like the example that we use in the first part of today's show, I think is a great one because there's basically two channels that you're using. You're using meta using Google. Tiny ad spend on Google, not a huge ad spend on meta. However, how much of a percentage of meta what you're seeing inside meta take out capi imports, because that's a whole other thing is really is model data. What's your estimation?
- [53:06]
John Moran
I would say about actually only 10 to 15%. It's very, very good. Honestly, when we cap the import, they're usually on like 20, they're usually 2 off. If it's like 50, they're usually like 5 to 6 off. So it's about 10 to 15%.
- [53:17]
Ralph Burns
That is so far down than what it used to be. Yeah, it used to be almost 40, 50%, especially after the 2021 iOS 14 debacle. Like nobody knew. And it was like you lost 70% of your data overnight. And then the model data came back and it was like 40 or 50% and it still was missing a lot. So 10 to 15% isn't really that bad.
- [53:37]
John Moran
Makes you wonder how much privacy violations are actually producing the back end that you don't know of. It's true.
- [53:44]
Ralph Burns
Yeah.
- [53:45]
John Moran
You know, if I was Zuck, I'd do it.
- [53:48]
Ralph Burns
What does he have to lose at this point, really?
- [53:50]
John Moran
I mean, when. When your network starts with a B, who cares? Yeah, who cares?
- [53:57]
Ralph Burns
Let's go down a couple of B's.
- [54:00]
John Moran
Odaris. I can't buy another planet.
- [54:03]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, can't go to that moon or something. Speaking of bees, buy the best drone. As a question, I have a search account where Broad Match does not work at all. It's TCPA but cannot scale due to volume. We still want more leads from competitors. Have you done feeder with no broad? I wonder if he sells drones.
- [54:20]
John Moran
Yeah. So broad Match when it doesn't work at all, it there's two things. It's either not enough data or not enough aspend or not enough time. Now, all three of those are not mutually exclusive to each other. So when you look at the broad, match does not work at all. What I would say is first, most often maximized conversions for sometimes 30 to 45 days is needed before a TCPA can even help increase efficiency. TCPA will never scale. Not if you actually are trying to hit a target. TCPA is a restrictive bidding strategy that tells Google unless you know or you very, very highly think that Ralph is going to convert right now, don't bid on him. So the reason why TCPA cannot scale is because maybe there has not been enough time for that campaign to run on maximized conversions to explore all the different search terms and keywords and CPCs and positionings that it needs to to understand where it can and cannot go. That's very expensive. Or you leave it on max convergence with low budget for longer. You're buying the data either with high amount of aspen and short amount of time or low amount of ass spend for longer. But you need to buy the data one way or the other. Do what you can afford. Then after broad match starts to work and then you are optimizing everything else, the last step of the funny is okay, everything looks good. Throw a TCPA on there and I'll see you next week. Like then now it just should run. But TCPA is the last step. It's never the first step. That yeah, makes sense.
- [55:48]
Ralph Burns
Casey Snow has a question here. I think Casey's new to the show. Have you tested incremental attribution in meta?
- [55:54]
John Moran
Yes, and that was actually one of the worst performing campaigns I've ever seen in data suite. It had some of the lowest cold traffic 22 compared to our average of 41 and had 2/3 returning customer, 1/3. Now I will new customers. However I will say that the NCAC was very good. It just wouldn't scale because it was targeting too much returning. So I think whatever is trying to work on to get new customers to buy that has increased. However, it is not taking any steps to have existing customers not buy. So that's just just know that is very good at getting a sale but it's even better at getting a sale on new and returning. So it's not incremental, it's just more of what it's doing.
- [56:28]
Ralph Burns
How much have you tested it?
- [56:29]
John Moran
Like 20 grand and two different campaigns. Yeah but after it beat my NCAC but couldn't scale and got more returning customers than anything else, I only can work with what scales because that's what I'm you know, trying to do in most of the accounts. Right.
- [56:41]
Ralph Burns
That's what we do.
- [56:42]
John Moran
Exactly.
- [56:43]
Ralph Burns
Grow businesses. All right, John Moran's dog. Back with another question. Just because favorite it because he is John Moran's dog. We will answer this question. I have a client interested in testing YouTube ads. Would you recommend YouTube Demand Gen or a combination the focus on both brand awareness and conversions.
- [56:59]
John Moran
So demand gen's okay. I actually have a test where I ran cappy import or import from clicks on Demand gen got 27 returning for 9 new. My 9 new cost me a 900 per CPA where the account total is usually 250 per CPA or NCAC I should say so Demand gen I have not figured out yet for like Bob on the funnel but YouTube works very well. If you are using an import from clicks model and still using sequencing that still is some of the best thing today. Testing YouTube ads is very scary because demand gen seems to target 50 to 60% website traffic who sometimes could be your existing customers or sometimes can just be really good remarketing but incrementality from demand gen is seldomly the case. So unless you are knowing that you can test the incrementality whether in platform unimport from clicks or top line NCAC metrics be very weary of demand gen. However the funny enough flip side, the sequencing campaigns that rarely ever show a conversion have some of the most one to one ratio of increase in spend and increase in attributable first time revenue globally that I've seen ever. So it's funny if you measure in platform you're going to hate sequencing but if you measure NCAC you're going to love sequencing sequencing.
- [58:08]
Ralph Burns
Yeah There is a YouTube live that we are a Tier 11 live that we did like that we've done multiple ones on that so go back through the catalog there and try and find that one. I think they're all titled so I think so.
- [58:20]
John Moran
Yeah.
- [58:21]
Ralph Burns
But yeah we don't have time to go through it here. But anyway great question. Tyler Cohen has multiple questions here. Real estate client wants to get more home seller leads through Google Ads. What do you think through strategy and then you yeah, demand gen versus YouTube Scott, that maybe we can hit all these at once.
- [58:40]
John Moran
Yeah, I'll see if I can grow through them. All right, so first question, want to get more sell leads to Google Ads? I would actually use still a broad match small amount of keywords because there's a thousand different search terms for small broad match keyword. So I would still use broad match keywords on a small amount of them and then I would, I would make sure that they are not not wildly different because there's a whole different variations that people type to type into Google when you're talking about motivated seller leads like some of my home fast on my house fast on my property. So my, you know those type of things are always randomly different but they all are about the same broad match keywords. So keep your keyword strategy small difference between demand and YouTube. Demand gen is like PMAX for video YouTube when you're looking at non conversion based bidding, non video action campaigns are more like you pick your target, pick your audience, pick your exclusions. Go, go. So your mileage may vary. Do you need more retargeting, kind of blended or are you trying to attack an audience hard? Those are difference between Demand Gen and YouTube. The next thing is wants to get more home seller leads. Google. Okay, we did that one. That was actually a copy paste from the one to above there looks like. Yeah, what's the difference between demanding. Okay, we already did that one. Maybe it's just duplicating. Grateful to your bull for generosity. Giving away Solar Escape for free.
- [59:50]
Ralph Burns
Happy to help. All right, thank you, Tyler. All right, Stuart Little, one more question here. Can you explain your first click import data post on on LinkedIn to a PPC beginner?
- [60:00]
John Moran
Oh yeah. So I Posted on, on LinkedIn the importance of first click import. First first click imports. And so this is a beginner type of beginning thought process. I'm just going to use paint, like paint. This is the, the theory there. So we have a whole, we have videos on like import from clicks. I, I don't want to give away trade secrets obviously because this is something that is like revolutionary for us. And so I'm not just going to tell every tech company how to clone our, our product but, but we have a very unique way of gathering the first click and then backdating it through the history of time. But what's interesting about this is if you have two users, this just imagine two stick figures. This is user one, whatever User one, this is user one as well. So this is two visits from the same person. Meta may see this and Google may see this as user one and may incorrectly think this is user number two. Because we already know that Meta and Google are bad at fingerprinting, especially after like three days. Right. So the import from clicks means that if user 2 as opposed what Meta thinks or Google thinks is user 2 clicks on something and buy something, I don't want to necessarily import that as a import here because this is a different g clid. This one here, User one is actually User two. They have a different g clid. However, this g clid didn't do anything. So when the second click from user1 buys I import user1's first click because it'll actually attribute to a different campaign because they're actually a different user inside of Meta's brain or Google's brain because they don't know it's the same person. So when the same person takes the Second action, I import the first actions. Click. That's as beginners, I can make it.
- [61:41]
Ralph Burns
That's it.
- [61:42]
John Moran
That's the dumbed down version.
- [61:44]
Ralph Burns
That's some beautiful artwork. We got one last question from Casey Snow. Let's do it. When you have diverse content on Advantage plus and you're not meeting gold, you kill the top ads getting spent or you just launch new ads to find new winners. It's a good question.
- [61:56]
John Moran
My question is, have you given this 30 days before touching it? I didn't. I. I was painfully not touching things for three weeks and it went from eh to okay, good. Wow, this is amazing. All right.
- [62:08]
Ralph Burns
The one that we showed in the beginning part of the show.
- [62:10]
John Moran
Yeah.
- [62:11]
Ralph Burns
You okay. I didn't realize that.
- [62:12]
John Moran
I thought I uploaded everything and just let it ride for a month.
- [62:15]
Ralph Burns
Okay.
- [62:16]
John Moran
Crazy, right?
- [62:18]
Ralph Burns
And no data for the first three weeks.
- [62:20]
John Moran
You said the first week I had two ads with all the spend and only click attribute.
- [62:25]
Ralph Burns
Right.
- [62:25]
John Moran
Second week I started to see it trickle down. Third week, almost three quarters of my ads had one. Or at least, well, actually two click attributed conversions. Yeah, I'll happen in three weeks without touching anything.
- [62:34]
Ralph Burns
Okay. 20th as I recall. And then it was 21 to 28.
- [62:41]
John Moran
And then May 28th to June 6th, I doubled the budget.
- [62:44]
Ralph Burns
Got it. So, yeah, go watch the recording of the first 20 minutes or so. That'll blow your mind.
- [62:49]
John Moran
There you go. All right.
- [62:50]
Ralph Burns
We will leave links in the show notes to all the resources that we mentioned here. Of course, everything about Advantage plus sales. We'll leave as much links as we can there. There's really not a whole lot, but most of it has come from the meta site and you can just sort of Google it yourself. Of course, if you've been listening to this show in the audio format, make sure that to get the real deal, to understand exactly how John was breaking everything down, head on over to our YouTube channel where you can see the video of this over@perpetualtraffic.com YouTube. But you already knew that. So thank you so much for listening this week. And wherever you listen to podcasts, we'd really appreciate a rating and review. It really does help us reach a wider audience to teach how to do this stuff the right way to you, the marketer, and you, the director of marketing, you, the business owner, and you can do that over on Spotify or Apple Podcast, whatever you choose. So really appreciate you listening to this week's show. Until next show. See ya. You've been listening to perpetual traffic.
- [63:47]
John Moran
Significant.