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- [00:03]
Ralph Burns
You're listening to Perpetual Traffic.
- [00:12]
Unknown Speaker
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- [01:06]
Ralph Burns
It's still Blue ocean for you.
- [01:07]
Unknown Speaker
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- [01:33]
Ralph Burns
Hello and welcome to the Perpetual Traffic Podcast. This is your host, Ralph burns, founder and CEO of Tier 11, alongside my.
- [01:41]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Amazing co host Larani Petrulo, the founder of Mongoose Media.
- [01:46]
Ralph Burns
So glad you joined us here today. And today is going to be part two. We weren't quite sure when we were going to do part two of this, which is all about naov. Remind the audience what NAOV is. Lauren.
- [01:59]
Lauren E. Petrulo
That New Average Order Value. Ralph H. Burns.
- [02:02]
Ralph Burns
That's right, New Average Order Value. Now this also applies to average Order value. So if you're an E commerce brand, this absolutely applies to you. We are going to be talking specifically, more specifically on E Commerce here today. But if you have a digital products company, if you have a service based business, a lot of this stuff does apply. So listen to what we're talking about here and think, hmm, how can I apply this to my business? In our first episode on Cross Selling, we use the example of McDonald's trying to educate the Perpetual Traffic listener on how to upsell. And that's what today's show is all about. Because naov, or Average Order Value, New Average Order Value is one of those marketing Performance indicators. That's absolutely essential that you know so you can figure out how much you are willing and able to pay to acquire a customer. And as we know, the old expression on NCAC is what he or she who is willing to pay the most.
- [03:05]
Lauren E. Petrulo
For the customer is going to win.
- [03:07]
Ralph Burns
That's right. Especially in a competitive marketplace.
- [03:10]
Lauren E. Petrulo
So hello Black Friday. Hello Q4. Like these are foundational things. Like I'm so glad that you're talking about this because like we're knee deep in making sure everyone knows that at the end of July you must have your Black Friday plan mapped out. And what you need to be doing now is prepping for Q4. It's like when fishermen are not at sea, what are they doing? They're fixing their nets. This is a fixing net situation that you need to set up for a more successful Q4.
- [03:40]
Ralph Burns
That's true. So now is the time to do it. Now's the time to test this. That's why we're doing this like mini episode on naov, because it's so vitally important. And if you don't know what all these marketing performance indicators are, just head on over to tier11.com MPI download the checklist. There's also an NCAT calculator that's in there as well. How to figure out how to determine your price you're willing to pay to acquire a customer. If you can increase your ltv, which we're going to do an episode on that too. Lifetime value or some people call it cltv, that helps as well. But that's a component of your aov. So two different things here. NAOV is your new average order value somebody buys for the first time. You have to be able to identify. This is what the Tier 11 data suite does extraordinarily well is it identifies new users, people who have never bought from you ever. Okay? End of story. 99.4% accuracy. All right, so those people use. You want to get those people to buy more often but also buy as much as they possibly can. Not a bunch of crap. Okay. We're assuming that you have a legitimate business, you're selling good products. Going to be talking about an example here. One of our beauty clients that sells amazing products and their vision is to actually help improve the self esteem and the self worth by helping 40 year old plus females succeed in business. Like that's their goal. So not trying to sell like a bunch of shit.
- [05:09]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Well it's like we say Ralph Disney doesn't sell movies or park tickets. They sell creating Memories. You're selling an emotion. So you're selling confidence above 40. It's what is the emotion that you're working so that the products are just the vehicle on which you're delivering on that. But that's what you're selling in everything and always. And that's where a lot of what we had talked about in the previous recording for cross sellings, it was like, how do you connect a better story? How do you connect to your consumer for a better experience?
- [05:37]
Ralph Burns
Absolutely. And that's it. It's like you want to create a great user experience. You want them to come back over and over again. We are not selling crap here. So all you affiliates that are selling scammy shit, just go to marketing school podcast right now and listen over there.
- [05:53]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Hey, hey. They've got some good stuff. I totally listen in every now and then because they're short digestible ones and I'm a big Eric Siou fan. Full disclosure, I have his right there. Leveling up.
- [06:03]
Ralph Burns
I know. Eric and Neil are awesome. Anyway. I just love to give them shit. That's usually what we do. So, anyway. All right, so today we're going to be talking about. There's really. There's seven strategies. These are not like the all, be all, end all, but there's really seven strategies in order to upsell. So going back to our initial episode here, difference between a cross sell and an upsell. Quiz for you, Lauren E. Petrullo, MBA with the laptop in front of you. So what is the difference between a cross sell and an upsell?
- [06:35]
Lauren E. Petrulo
The cross sell is where you're complimentary, so C, cross complimentary. And the upsell is increasing more of the same. So the alcohol version, if you're at a bar, what is the upsell? Make it a double. The identifry term that we use like for McDonald's is would you like fries with that? So the cross sell starts with C. C is complimentary. And then upsell is increasing, upping the order value, which in the supplement space is great, especially if you're like, do you want to order more? Which. Which can be with bundling or it can be like increasing the amount. Maybe you're buying one bottle. There's a toothpaste ad. So everyone like live fresh. They're no way sponsor or anything like that. But they do a great job of upselling in their funnel. So, like, now that your phones are listening to it, hopefully you get it. It's a very expensive toothpaste. But their upsell is making it more appealing for you to buy more of the same product either in larger size or larger quantity than pushing a cross sell. I'm sure they sell all those toothbrushes and other complimentary items but yeah, that's the difference between cross sell and upsell.
- [07:41]
Ralph Burns
Now one of the examples here today is going to be we're going to use bundling. So one of our beauty and wellness clients sells a look like the no makeup makeup look. It is a bundle of six or seven products depending on which ones are you know, in inventory at that particular point in time. And it's a great thing cause you're selling the after state. We always talk about the before state, the after state. You know, we're big Ryan Deiss fans, although he's retired now, but he's still taking money. The point is, is that that's what you're selling here in a lot of cases. And the big thing is that you're adding value to the, to your customer always.
- [08:15]
Lauren E. Petrulo
That's the bottom line. The bottom line is always how do you add value without it costing you more.
- [08:22]
Ralph Burns
Just a fun fact here. Amazon which controls 42% of all online shopping, which is an insane statistic like Walmart and Target make up like 8% Walmart.
- [08:36]
Lauren E. Petrulo
When they did their like Walmart plus the first year that they competed against Amazon prime they took 5% of market share. So I'm not going to poo poo 5% acquisition in a solid 365 day strategy. Now they haven't sustained that type of growth and it's obviously a very competitive space for it. But for those that are in the e commerce space, if you are not taking advantage of having your feeds and all the different platforms. We've talked about TikTok shops extensively but not all brands can get onto TikTok shops. Walmart and other resources for putting your products is massive. And I've we've had clients that poo pooed Walmart because they assume Walmart.com is the same as Walmart in store. But we've had luxury products clients with high end products make themselves available on Walmart.com so Amazon definitely the giant in the space for now while Walmart and Target are encroaching on it as best as they can. It's almost like the fight for AI right now which is like the US versus China because of the resource and China's open source and the US is closed policy.
- [09:41]
Ralph Burns
Anyway, the point is is like Amazon produces a lot of sales online but the funny thing is is like the interesting stat that I was trying to say before you went on your Walmart Target diatribe is that upselling now is 35% of their total revenue for Amazon. Yes. If you're not doing this like and there's reasons why, like I always do it because I always bundle stuff together. It's like, oh, like I was in buying some like new microphones and a couple of new cameras because we're going to start doing more of this in person stuff in our video studio in Boston. And it's like, oh well, would you like, you know the battery that goes in that plugs in for the Sony camera? I'm like, yeah, I do. Or would you like a bunch of like, you know, three or four ones that you can sort of swap in and out? So it was like, holy crap, I never thought of that. But I'm like, yes, that's what I need. Course I texted Ayan, I said, should I get this? She's like, absolutely. So it's like right there, there's a great example of just like an average purchase. But the point was, is that they added something on and I forget how much it was. It was like a $300 camera. It was like $100 like bundling sort of upsell here, which we'll get into here just a second. So anyway, so think about like your client journey here. Upsells like when shoppers are like at the point of buying. And most of the the things that we're going to be talking about here are upsells at certain points of the client journey. And the first one is your pre purchase upsell. This comes in the form of like product recommendations, like the bottom area of like your product pages. So that's before they even add to cart. Okay. So that you see those and we'll give some examples here.
- [11:24]
Lauren E. Petrulo
So it's after the scroll.
- [11:25]
Ralph Burns
Yep. So it's like, you know, these are additional products that people will buy. So it's like adding more to your cart. Adding more. Not complimentary necessarily. Sometimes they are kind of cross sells. You know, we might be overlapping a bit here but the point is, is like that's part of it. So that's like a pre purchase upsell mid purchase is when you're in the cart. Like you're in the right at the point of sale you have already added to cart and you get like a.
- [11:50]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Pop up like in the services base a lot of people will have like a checkbox to include it. Like hey, if you're signing up for this $97 challenge, add this viral hook package for $37. Just a simple check. Like the Amazon one click buy solution. It's just like one click ad.
- [12:06]
Ralph Burns
Exactly. So there's that sort of mid purchase and then the third one is like post purchase. We've all seen these. It's like, hey, you bought one, great. However your information is stored, they don't say that. But it's like if you get two more, you can get 30% off, you get four more, you can get 52% off or whatever the percentage is. So that would be sort of the post purchase upsell. So pre purchase, mid purchase and then post purchase. So we'll be talking about that on today's show and sort of that sort of our frame makes sense so far.
- [12:38]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Yeah, makes total sense so far. Let's get into it.
- [12:41]
Ralph Burns
Let's do it. All right, so one of the best ones I'm looking for a new computer. Apple does this amazingly well is they will give you sort of a side by side comparison. So it's like, all right, well you're looking for this thing, but then there's also your thing is maybe on the middle to lower end, but if you go over to the left, you'll see the one that has the extra terabyte of memory or whatever it is for faster performance.
- [13:07]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Best Buy does it too. If you look at it in person, I'm going to always try to like push you to go in person to have human connections and see the retail experience. Because even at the Apple display at Best Buy, because we're looking at getting computers for our team looking at the Mac Mini versus the Mac Mini Studio, like it's just going to lay it all out. So your price anchoring, where it's like the Mac Mini studio starts at 2000 whereas the Mac mini starts at $800. But you're price anchoring it, you're like, well, $800 is nothing in comparison to 2000. So you're providing that psychological effect. But then you're also showing side by side the memory caps at 64 gigabytes versus the other one can go as high as 512 and that like side by side. And Amazon does that really well too, but can be annoying because it's like theft almost where you're like, don't show other people competitive products that might be better than the solution that you're offering. Like, ugh. But those are two good examples.
- [14:00]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, Amazon does it extraordinarily well. Like when I was buying that Sony camera, there were higher versions. I ended up not buying them, but they like, they highlight your little column for your camera. And then there's other cameras that are. I don't know that, like this is the one that Ian told me to buy. So I was like, you know, I didn't fall for it. But the point was like, I saw it and I'm like, this is really good. So in the beauty niche, for example, like we have two or three clients that do this all the time. So let's say they're looking for like a daily moisturizer and it's 30 bucks. But on the product page, there might be a comparison chart that shows that product alongside a premium version of the moisturizer. Maybe higher, like with SPF in it or something like that. You know, anti aging peptides, 24 hour hydration. It's a side by side comparison. I'm like, well, you know, I can get this 31 that doesn't have this stuff or I can get this $50 one. Like, that's a really good example of like the side by side comparison. In that case, I think it's only like one or two other products. But if you have the 30, you might have a 50 and then you have a 70 that has even more benefits. And I think in a lot of cases Amazon will do this with like 4, 5 to 10. Sometimes you have to scroll way over to the right, which I don't really like. I like to limit the upsell sort of purchases because the confused mind typically will say, no. It's like, oh, there's too many things to think about. I'll just go with the one that I got. And I remember that when I was purchasing the camera, it did have that scrolly thing and it was on my phone and I'm like, it's just, I don't know, I don't want to look at it. So I just got the thing that I got. So anyway, so back to the original episode we were talking about. Cross sells. Like, you have to limit the options here. Don't confuse people. But also look at the back end of your Shopify store. What are my best sellers? Well, maybe the $50 moisturizer is your best seller because it has SPF 30. It's got the anti aging stuff, you know, like, look at your data to figure out like, okay, which one should I position? And oftentimes, you know, I know there's apps that do this. I forget the app. That's the name. They'll highlight the one that they want you to pick. So you see that or it's a little bit larger and the other ones are sort of in the background a little bit. So there's a lot of sort of subtle psychological clues here. But literally you are not trying to spam someone. You're not trying to be overboard. You're just saying, hey, you know, that's a great option if you want these other things. Instead of like fumbling around the site to try and find it, we're going to offer it right up here like before you even go into the purchase in some cases. So you can do it either, like pre purchase, you can do it mid purchase. I don't think this is really one that you can do post purchase. But the point is the side by side comparisons work really, really well. Make sense.
- [16:54]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Makes total sense.
- [16:55]
Ralph Burns
All right. The one that I love probably the best because we have a lot of like CPG clients obviously in the beauty space. Supplement space is. Number two is upselling into a subscription. So switching from the one time purchase to a recurring subscription, like, oh my God, how much does this help with ltv? We're talking about not only increasing NAOV potentially, but really what we're talking about is really increasing our LTV and that ltv, especially on a continuity program. You're turning a one time purchase into a recurring purchase with maybe a slight discount or an added convenience. We were on a line with a customer yesterday. We were going through one of our larger supplement clients and obviously the subscribe and Save is a huge thing on Amazon. However, the subscribe and Save on their site is slightly less than if you would buy it on Amazon.
- [17:51]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Oh, so they're doing that model. Okay, yeah. And because they're pushing for more Amazon buyers.
- [17:57]
Ralph Burns
No, they're pushing for more people to actually price shop on Amazon. Amazon says okay, it's only, I forget the price. It might be like 22.99 if you subscribe and save. But on their side it's like 1999.
- [18:10]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Oh, sorry. So you're making it more affordable on website. On.com version. That's why I thought they were doing it the other way. I was like, they're giving away more margin and that's. I know that model but I've never seen it work. So I was like, oh, okay. Yeah, so it's advantageous if you buy on Amazon. It's like what, 40, 40/46ish percent of Amazon buyers are never going to leave Amazon. They're always going to buy an Amazon. But there are some that are going to fall in love with your product and venture to see a bigger line of products. You have, you might have.comexclusives or potentially more price advantageous costs like in this situation where you get to save two bucks per.
- [18:44]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, absolutely. So what we tell all of our Amazon like we've probably had a half a dozen calls this week where like hey, we're doing so much more business on Amazon than we're doing over on our Shopify store. I'm like well let's look at your pages, see how you're pricing. Hint hint. You can run a all the time 20% off sale and undercut your Amazon price and stay in compliance with map pricing and make your subscription less than if it were subscribe and save on Amazon. And that's how you acquire a customer over on Amazon. And then they when the next time they buy maybe a one time purchase on Amazon they go to your site.
- [19:20]
Lauren E. Petrulo
But you also own the customer.
- [19:22]
Ralph Burns
Right? That's the key.
- [19:23]
Lauren E. Petrulo
You never get the customer's information. You get a chance at 1% of people using an inbox flyer like you can have one insert that may potentially casual and it's like really good if you're like hey take this survey and we'll give you a complimentary product because you're just as an Amazon seller you know that you don't get any of that information at all. It's so gate kept from you. But if they buy from you, you also don't have to give up that 15 to 35%.
- [19:48]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, I mean it's average like 15% or so. So I mean I feel like you figure out your pricing pricing versus Amazon.
- [19:55]
Lauren E. Petrulo
I'm just thinking about like fulfillment by Amazon because of also the cost of storing the product and all of those situations. So yeah it's 15% on sales but on that this is a solution. So you're saying going back to like one of. Cause you have seven upsell solutions that can help you as a brand owner or agency provider for your clients. And even if you're not in the e commerce space think of applicable ways. One of them that you're saying is having like the first one we talked about was like the comparison so that you can see confirm the purchase that they want or potentially increase the value of the purchase. And then this is the second one.
- [20:31]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, perfect. So an example beauty example here is Face Cleanser 2499 but at checkout sort of a mid purchase upsell subscribe and save get 15% off. And what they do is they actually have a dropdown of regular deliveries of one month, two months or three months. So you get to choose which one.
- [20:54]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Do they increase the discount on the based on the frequency or is it a flat 15%?
- [20:59]
Ralph Burns
It's a flat 15% in this case. Obviously something to test. I mean, just like in our previous episode on Cross sells, like you gotta test this sort of stuff. But in this particular case they don't. So always be testing ABT number three. Make this quick here. All right. Upselling with incentives. So providing an extra benefit like free shipping, a free gift, a discount on the next purchase if the customer chooses a higher value product. So let's say a customer is buying like a 3999 foundation. An offer pops up and says, upgrade to our Premium Foundation Plus Primer Bundle for 65 bucks or 64.99 and get a full free size makeup setting, spray for $20 value and free expedited shipping. Like that's a great offer.
- [21:50]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Say less.
- [21:51]
Ralph Burns
But you're getting $65, you're upselling and you're getting this freebie. Like that's kind of combining a lot of different things into it. But this is obviously something to test. So you're upgrading. That's absolutely what it is. So it's an upsell, but it's really, it's an upgrade of what you're currently you have in your cart. And that's actually right like mid checkout. So that's right at the checkout. So incentives is a good one. Alternating products. So think about like products that are maybe superior or they have more comprehensive elements to the product that you're about to purchase and then guiding that customer towards better options. So for example, hey, you know, when.
- [22:34]
Unknown Speaker
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- [24:09]
Ralph Burns
Beauty niche example. Once again, customers looking at your basic like, is it volumizing mascara?
- [24:15]
Lauren E. Petrulo
I'm loving you. Struggle so much on these terms. Like, if this were sports analogies, you'd be like, I've got this all day. And now we're talking about like volumizing mascara, primer, foundation, powder, setting powder. Like, I'm here for this.
- [24:28]
Ralph Burns
You can tell I'm not the one that actually does the work on this, but I sell the ideas. Like, we have a team that is like a bunch of beauty specialists, so they gave me all these, by the way. So anyway, so volumizing mascara, I know what that is. It's a mascara that makes your eyelashes more volume, like thicker. Right? So maybe alongside that product it might be like a. You might also like, this is classic Amazon selling, you know, lash effect mascara. Like, that's one of the ones that we use. And then it shows, like how it lengthens and volumizes and curls and does all these great things.
- [25:07]
Lauren E. Petrulo
And maybe you're doing so good.
- [25:10]
Ralph Burns
Am I doing good? It's good.
- [25:11]
Lauren E. Petrulo
I'm doing great.
- [25:13]
Ralph Burns
And then maybe you have like a duo of like $35 with a primer. So you're encouraging the upgrade, like from an $18 purchase to maybe like a $35 purchase if you actually pull them all together. Because it's a. You might also like alongside it. So this is a little bit upsell cross selling, but it's more upselling because you are adding more to it. So this could almost be included in our original list from our original podcast. So how am I doing so far?
- [25:43]
Lauren E. Petrulo
You're doing great. You're completing your no makeup makeup look right now.
- [25:47]
Ralph Burns
I really am. As long as the lighting and, you know, the effects here on Riverside are right. I, you know, it's kind of like the no makeup makeup look. I don't wear any makeup, so. All right, this is our favorite Upselling into a bundle is number five. Okay, so related multiple products all together in A basket selling a look, the no makeup, makeup look. There's a lot of like, there's another one. I think it's like just woke up and still look pretty like you're selling obviously the after state here. So for example, related products bought together, okay. At a slightly reduced price than if they were bought individually. And then you create sort of this perception of greater value from more complete after state solution, benefit, benefit, benefit. So let's say, you know, can you think, all right, here you go. I'm going to ask you, do you have any examples of this upselling into a bundle?
- [26:42]
Lauren E. Petrulo
I will say that we do a lot of upselling into bundles for Black Friday. So there's a lot of those pieces that we'll do where we'll have massive discounts in the bundles that will ideally take you through January. But other examples that are going to be upselling the bundle. Keeping that beauty niche is always upselling into a travel kit or upselling into a complete set. So there, some of the products that we personally sell, we have like 97 different brands. So we'll say you can complete the kit kit that it's with so that you have the same matching sets so that you can get all three always at a discount. So we'll do those type of bundles in the past we've created, I will just tell you from our experience what it didn't work well. We'd create three set, five set and 10 set kits based off of skin type. So if you have oily skin, here's your five set bundle, here's your ten set bundle, here's your three step bundle specifically for your skin type. Remove the friction. And then if someone bought a product that's in the bundle, we'd say like hey, this is inside our oily skin anti aging bundle. Would you like to upgrade to that bundle? I will say when we've done that it was triggered based off of a product inside of the bundle. It actually hurts the point of sale. So in our use case I can sell that one didn't work where it was like distracting you away. Because like we talked yesterday, what you never want to do is interrupt someone's full on experience thinking about this out loud. I bet that would have been a better post purchase bundle upgrade where it's like, hey, we can add these other two products in your cart before it's fully shipped without increasing any shipping costs to you. Like that like thinking out loud, I'm like oh, that would have been a better solution.
- [28:16]
Ralph Burns
Yeah. The idea is like in that particular Case what dollar volume are you taking them from? And then to as far as like the bundle goes.
- [28:25]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Good question. So like you know, 80 plus percent of the products are under $30. So then going into a kit that's gonna be $50, it's too much of a burden. So that I was like, well I was just going to spend $25 on this moisturizer or on this toner. Now I'm going to a minimum of a 50 plus dollar purchase. It caused too much friction versus it being a gradual increase. So in that case, if it was already purchased and then I'm not now anchoring your $25 to a $50 product you've already purchased $25. And I'm just saying would you like to get two products now for an additional $25 without any additional costs? That would have been a better story to tell. So learn from my mistakes. That didn't work well. But other bundles that can do is like we have a client that has a moisturizing product and then we can say like hey, you can bundle, you can get two of them, you can get three of them. So it's one for you. It's like we had called it like the air, the spare and one for your best friend kind of situation so that you have it as a gift kind of situation. So those are other ways that we've done it. But those are on like microsite pages where we make that a very specific product landing page. And then later down once you have it, you have the option to see similar to your previous one where you're comparing, then we have just comparing bundles that will put lower on the pages that provide more value. But for me I've seen challenges where I've upgraded into a bundle before that's caused more friction on the sale. But now I'm like, oh, I'm immediately going to go test the post purchase version to tell a different story.
- [29:54]
Ralph Burns
Interesting. So in the client that I was just talking about, which is a great example because they do it so well, is like they do a tutorial on the look. These videos are mostly face to camera with you know the subject matter expert in there. And so for example, I'm looking at one right now. I won't say who it is, but it's like the natural and smoky makeup look but with that is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 products. So they're selling the look and then they tell you how to do it and you see the transformation and this woman has no makeup to start, she's very attractive. Just to begin with. But then after, it's like she has everything. It's like the look is so amazing. It's so amazing. It's so good. And she's using it. Like she'll go up right to the camera. It's like, this is the sculpting brush that I'm using. This is the eyeshadow trio that I use. And so she'll then apply it, show how to apply it. It's just brilliant. And they've got dozens of these and it's just a great way of doing it. And it works really well on social. And then you put paid ads behind it. It's like, it's absolutely killer.
- [31:01]
Lauren E. Petrulo
It's like the recipe.
- [31:02]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, it's like the recipe. You want the cake? Let me show you how to make it. So that's basically it. So anyway, that's why I love bundles. These are definitely my favorite. We've got a few more here. Upselling pre cart with a pop up. Now this is one where you have not gone to the cart site yet, but you are looking at the page.
- [31:26]
Lauren E. Petrulo
So you're on the pdp, the product display page.
- [31:29]
Ralph Burns
Yep.
- [31:30]
Lauren E. Petrulo
And you've already clicked add to cart.
- [31:32]
Ralph Burns
No, you have not added to cart yet. So it's like you're looking at like dollar Shave Club used to do this really, really well. Like you're on the razor, but then you're on the razor page. But then the pop up comes in, says, hey, special offer, like upgrade and save 15% to the groom kit. Yeah, when you get the groom kit, which is the, you know, the razor, then you get the shave butter. Because I just used it this morning. And then you get the moisturizer. I guess I actually, I was totally upsold this because now I'm thinking about it. It's like I applied all three this morning. It's crazy. So that's how well it works. It's like. So I would have just bought the razor with the blades that come. And that's a continuity program.
- [32:17]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Is you want the band aid or do you want the actual solution?
- [32:21]
Ralph Burns
Right. Do you want like the Neosporin plus the cotton balls and the hydrogen peroxide? You know what I mean? Like, depends on what kind of wound you have. But anyway, that's the point. Like I haven't even added to cart yet, so I'm thinking about buying it. I'm hovering there and there's an app that we can probably do like a whole episode on, like apps that we like that do this. But anyway, the app is if you stay on that page long enough, that means you're interested or you're reading about it and then the hover pop comes, it can't come too soon, otherwise it's just annoying.
- [32:55]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Good. Can I add a plus and a yes? And to this that I've seen really well. So if you're doing that type of pop up, it can be to distract. If there's a lower value product and it fits inside of a bigger kit and you're like, hey, what you're actually looking for is a grooming kit. And it's not super simple like, no, I just want a razor. Okay. Exit that journey. It can be a point of friction where they're like, I don't want this. Don't be annoying. But in that use case, if it's a very small price point and you're like, I'm not actually making any money. And if we go back to like naov, if your naov is suffering and it's like you have, you're selling a lot of these $2 products. When you have a groom kit for $10, this is a very good thing to test. But what I would add to it is when they leave that screen, you can have it coded in so that the tab has a noise and a different banner so that you can have it in your tabs. If you're like me, I don't know, I probably have like 45 tabs open right now while we're recording on Riverside. You can have it. So then that tab starts to signal notifications to draw someone back to the tab that they had abandoned. So if you're doing that pop up, you have to make sure that you have a delay in place because you don't want to interrupt. This is when someone who's like, they're on the fence. You're like, hey, you're looking again. Go back to that in person experience. Someone's like looking around. You hate it when someone comes up to you. It's like, hey, how can I help you? Like, oh my gosh, I'm browsing. I literally just started looking at this. Go away, you behemoth troll digger, you. But if you're like there and you're like looking at it and you need help, what tumble is like, hey, can I help you? We have a, we do this for sales. We have a 4th of July sale right now that's going on where I see you're looking at that razor. We actually have a full grooming kit. Can I show it to you? This might be what you're actually solving for. So that always go back to what you would want to experience in. In person, because that's what we adopt to the online environment. So having that delay is critical. But then also that delay might happen because they're still considering or they've left your browser and they're on a different tab. So I would just. Yes. And of having that notification because then you can change what the tab is saying so it can continue to draw their attention back to it.
- [35:13]
Ralph Burns
That's great. And by the way, you asked actually a different question than most people ask when they're browsing. Can I help you? Is a yes and no question. You asked how can I help you? Which is not a yes or no question. Which is probably better. One of the things I was in Lowe's was I Lowe's or Home Depot, and a guy walked up to me, like, with the Lowe's apron. He's like, hey, how's it going? Good. What project are you working on?
- [35:41]
Lauren E. Petrulo
What a good question.
- [35:42]
Unknown Speaker
It's a great question.
- [35:43]
Ralph Burns
I was like, oh, my God, that's so good. They have some kind of training. It's like, do you need anything? Have any questions? Nope, I'm good. You know, it's like, what project am I working on? I was like, oh, yeah, I'm actually. I'm trying to, like, trim the trees, like, to trim back because they keep coming out, like, messing up the view of the lake at my house. And he's like, oh, okay. So what you need is a pole saw. Like, he's got a couple of different versions. Like, where? I'm like, where are those? I've been looking around for them. He's like, well, there's the power version, there's the electric version. Or you can just do like, the hands. So I ended up buying the cheap one because. Which is kind of cheap. But anyway, the point is, is like, that was a great question. So think about it that way. People are always kind of like, the easy thing is no. So in the example of Dollar Shave, I don't know. As if I don't have Dollar Shave Club up. But anyway, I would guess that they probably have like a no thanks, continue to cart kind of thing, or no thanks right now. You can test this. But look at your most popular product and once again, go in the back end of your store, figure out what that product is like with Dollar Shave Club, now that they're owned by Gillette. I mean, it's shaver. It's the thing you use for shaving, you know, Whatever that thing is called a shaver. So a razor. But it's not really that because the razor blade is a separate thing. But anyway the point is is like look at your most popular item and what can you actually offer them as sort of a bundle. But it's upselling before they actually add to the cart. And it's just a better user experience. But don't be too pushy on it. Makes sense.
- [37:21]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Makes total sense.
- [37:22]
Ralph Burns
All right, last but not least, upselling on the thank you page number seven. All right, so after a purchase is completed offering a relevant upsell and we've talked about this a couple of times here today or recurring option this like your recurring thing. Hey, subscribe and save could be done on the thank you page. Offering a relevant upsell. Like you've already bought one bottle of protein powder. You know you can get three for the price of X6. I don't know why it's always three and six in the supplement space but it always is. Point is like use what everybody else uses because that's probably what works, you know, as a thank you for your purchase. Get 20% off your first month of the deluxe beauty box subscription or whatever it is or add our best selling, you know, hydrating mist to your next order for only $12. Whatever it is. Like think about how whatever they've purchased, you know and then your maybe one of your more popular products this is a little bit harder to do so that it's completely relevant. Like a cross sell. It can be like that's why it's in the upsell because it's on the thank you page because there's not a lot of softwares that know what your purchase was and then can match it. Have to sort of look into that. But the point is like on the post purchase thank you page there is a great opportunity for subscribe and save bundling, adding more, you know, your highest inventory, lowest selling product that you know is really good. Try and get rid of it on your thank you page. Like I've seen that many, many times. So upselling on the thank you page is just one of the Internet marketing and the digital marketing sort of staples.
- [39:01]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Yeah, the post purchase upsell where you've got them in the e commerce space. It's like hey, like what we've tested is when it won't increase your shipping costs because beauty products are heavy. They're water based products that add more weight. More weight means more shipping costs and that goes up every year. So when you're able to say like hey like you don't have to pay extra shipping. Ideally it even hits them to the threshold, but if it's not, it's like, hey, don't worry about it. We can still put it in your order without increasing your costs. Like before, if you did have that order bump at checkout where you're just increasing an additional product and bumping up that average order value, you could potentially increase the shipping and handling costs. And we've worked with a lot of food and beverage products and again, liquids is heavy. So we would find order bumps of increasing an additional bottle into your order would then add an extra 7 pounds of shipping. It's like, wait, hold on, this product cost me £5. It just was £12 more. So if you have that threshold of like where you unlock free shipping, but if you're doing that post purchase upsell where you can say I can insert it without affecting shipping, that's done really well for E Commerce. And then in the digital marketing space, like the Internet marketing space, we've seen it a lot where if you're selling a challenge or you're selling a webinar, right, They've already purchased and now you're offering them. What else can enhance their experience? And a lot of people will do this, especially in the service space, is if it's a post purchase upsell. Unlike the other tactics and strategies, you have to be very mindful of the psychology of the price because you cannot deter. Like I told you my example, we went from a $25, now we're selling you $50. It was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what happened? But here you're actually encouraged to increase what they're willing because they've already given you that initial commitment. So say you're buying something for $24. You can now be like, hey, there's more that we can add to your card. Or in the service space you might be like, you bought this $97. Now let me upsell you into a $247 product.
- [40:52]
Ralph Burns
Right, right. You're combining two kind of different things there a bit. We did talk a little bit about order bumps on the first episode on that, which is usually it appears on the checkout page as like a small low cost add on. You know, no more than between 25 and 50% of the original purchase price. You know, like, great thing is like we use the Frank Kern example in the info space. Get the audio version on the $19 product for only $9 or $7 or whatever it is. And like you could just check that box. So that sort of would be an order bump. You know, you can also do that on the post purchase upsell page. You can do that or subscribe and save. So test where it is like that always, you know, I guess rule number eight here is test, test, test, everything of course, because these are just sort of generalized guidelines. But if you do like one of these, literally, and just focus on that, take the seven things that we've talked about here today and figure out, okay, that one I'm going to do and then just start testing it. Because this is the most important stuff. Like I've said this before, it's like our application page is the most important page on our site. Your checkout is the most important page on your site. Just prior to checkout, like the pre purchase upsell. Really important on your PDP pages, your post purchase. Like figure out where the friction points are. Obviously you can look at this sort of stuff inside your Google Analytics and see where the friction points are within your analysis. You can also get an analysis done from us over@tier11.com apply if you see where those friction points are. The point is pick one and figure that out and test the hell out of it. Now before Black Friday Cyber Monday is coming because it's coming fast. So that's the reason why we're doing this show right now.
- [42:41]
Lauren E. Petrulo
And for the media buyers and agencies listening to it, like you're like, well, I'm in charge of before the click. This after the click stuff like yes, data suites can give you a lot of information. Other tools potentially might give you that. Even within like the meta ecosystem, if you have your audiences set up, you can see what the purchase conversion value is for your engaged audience, for your customers and for your new audience. That new audience and your purchase conversion value will allow you to at least see from your Facebook ads, attributable conversions and net naov. So it gives you a starting place. So if you do not focus on what happens after the click, you're discriminating. Opportunity for you to be a better media buyer because your in app metrics, those micros of your roas is predetermined based off of what's happening after the click. So even though we're not saying 4 follow and subscribe only to your in app micros numbers, right? Like you have to look at the macro picture, you still have that as a component to the story. That's giving you guidance on how to make smarter media buying decisions.
- [43:41]
Ralph Burns
Absolutely. I mean they're so interrelated. You bring up a really good point a lot of media buyers like, yeah, well, that's after the click. That doesn't really matter to me. It absolutely matters.
- [43:50]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Especially when your position is going away in the next two to three years. Like, to be a better media buyer is to be a better marketer.
- [43:56]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, well, it's also to be a more helpful resource for your clients too, or for your business. And that's what we're talking about here, like user experience and getting them to come back over and over again and obviously purchase more helpful, useful products on the first purchase, which is all about NAOV and increasing that. But you can increase that. You can increase your ncac and that's how you beat the competition. So anyway, I'm going to drop the mic right now, so make sure that wherever you listen to podcasts, wherever that is, leave us a rating and review. All right. We're going to read those out here on air. Really appreciate that because it gets us to a wider audience and teaches people how to do all this shit the right way as opposed to the wrong way. So go back and listen to previous episodes. We will put all links in the show notes on this. All right, well, thank you so much for listening this week. All our resources are over@perpetualtraffic.com on behalf of my amazing co host, Lauren E. Petrulo. Till next show. See ya.
- [45:01]
Lauren E. Petrulo
You've been listening to Perpetual Traffic.