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- [00:00]
Ralph Burns
Hey, before we get into today's show, my marketing manager finally convinced me to run a wild experiment in this episode because he wanted to prove what the conversion engine can do for your brand. So we are giving away three of our $10,000 deep dive audits for free in this audit. And this isn't one of those audits that you get from some AI generated bot. This actually takes us two plus weeks, seven or eight of our team members, and it is incredibly in depth. It will give you insights into your media buying, your creative, your actual business metrics, and find out exactly where the gaps are and where your growth is stalled and what we can do about it or what you can do about
- [00:46]
Kirk Williams
it when you get the audit.
- [00:48]
Ralph Burns
Now here's the catch. We only have three spots, so head on over to tier11.com audit right now. Fill out the form and let's see how we can scale your business in the coming year.
- [01:00]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Anyone that goes into their account and you do this audience segments and you don't see this, I automatically assume that your team isn't keeping up. You can look at this and you're like, oh my gosh, this client isn't going after new customers.
- [01:12]
Kirk Williams
You would look at this and you would say, warning sign. Because I look at that, say, that's a massive warning sign.
- [01:19]
Lauren E. Petrillo
This is a warning sign for a multitude of things. One is two view through conversions versus click through conversions. I need to now do a different breakdown that's gonna show me view through versus click through.
- [01:32]
Kirk Williams
So each campaign has its own individual objective. I think, like from my standpoint, I'm a simple guy. I like to keep things really, really simple.
- [01:42]
Lauren E. Petrillo
You're a man.
- [01:44]
Kirk Williams
You have five different campaigns trying to achieve the objective, which is ultimately is to sell your stuff. Wouldn't it make more sense to have
- [01:52]
Lauren E. Petrillo
more simple, I want to marry my customers does that. You're listening to Perpetual Traffic.
- [02:05]
Kirk Williams
Hey, real quick.
- [02:06]
Ralph Burns
If you're looking to get your brand in front of growth minded marketers, CMOs, directors of marketing and agency owners, we're opening up our sponsorship spots for Q1 and Q2. Get in front of a quarter of a million marketers every single month at Perpetual Traffic. All you have to do is head on over to perpetualtraffic.com for the details or check out the link in the show notes to apply. Hello and welcome to the Perpetual Traffic podcast. This is your host, Ralph burns, founder and CEO of Tier11.
- [02:34]
Kirk Williams
Obviously not in my regular office where I usually am.
- [02:38]
Ralph Burns
I'm on this Florida tour here for a couple of weeks, seeing some clients, seeing some of our employees at tier
- [02:44]
Kirk Williams
11, as well as doing a couple
- [02:46]
Ralph Burns
of podcasts with Lauren. This is part two of one of those. And just so much fun to do
- [02:53]
Kirk Williams
these when you're actually in person, as opposed to doing it through Zoom or Riverside. Is this the software that we use here?
- [03:01]
Ralph Burns
You can really get deep into exactly
- [03:04]
Kirk Williams
how she looks at things, how I look at things, and I think there's a happy medium between the two of our opinions. And we don't necessarily agree on this
- [03:13]
Ralph Burns
one here today because we really look
- [03:16]
Kirk Williams
at meta and the creative diversification Andromeda
- [03:22]
Ralph Burns
Gem update as just a transformative update
- [03:26]
Kirk Williams
for a lot of businesses.
- [03:27]
Ralph Burns
They're not looking at the right types of metrics because the classic funnel. And we can blame Amazon, we can blame Russell Brunson from ClickFunnels for this is dead.
- [03:38]
Kirk Williams
And most brands are still running their
- [03:41]
Ralph Burns
marketing like a 2019, trying to chop up individual channels and figure out which channel is the one that's getting the most conversions and or engagement.
- [03:52]
Kirk Williams
All of that.
- [03:53]
Ralph Burns
And we break that down here today. And we don't necessarily agree on this. We don't see eye to eye. Usually we see eye to eye in
- [04:00]
Kirk Williams
a lot of our shows here, but on this show we did not.
- [04:03]
Ralph Burns
So the goal here is to learn and get better at this stuff because
- [04:07]
Kirk Williams
it's constantly changing and constantly fluctuating in the marketplace right now. So that's probably why you're listening, listening to this show. Here we are inside Meta screenshot.
- [04:18]
Ralph Burns
So explain to us.
- [04:20]
Kirk Williams
You've got. This is your little cursor right here to be able to show exactly where you look for new customers versus returning customers versus all customers and the effectiveness of your meta campaigns in acquiring said
- [04:35]
Lauren E. Petrillo
customers on the screen. Sorry for those that are jogging and not watching the video. And if you're driving, please don't drive safely. What I was explaining, I was like, here's a breakdown. So underneath the date you have columns and then you have breakdown. This column says creative performance. That's a custom column that we've made. But this here you can see under demographics there's a. You scroll to the right, there's a segment called audience segments. None. Age, gender, age and gender audience segments.
- [05:01]
Kirk Williams
And when we get screenshot, by the way, it's probably better that we don't go in and meta because, like, people can screenshot this and send this to their teams.
- [05:09]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Send it to your teams.
- [05:09]
Kirk Williams
Yeah.
- [05:10]
Lauren E. Petrillo
But you also see what my naming convention is like and it'll be cool. Okay. When you have this audience segments. What you can see on the screen is engaged audience, existing customers and new audience. And that's underneath the Campaign 14 BAU stands for business as usual. Campaign 14. That's just a specific naming convention we use for our horseman strategy. Same as Campaign 7, etc. And so what we have is Engage, Existing, New. That breakdown I'm only able to get because I defined my audiences as said earlier.
- [05:39]
Kirk Williams
In advance.
- [05:40]
Lauren E. Petrillo
In advance. If you go to this, anyone that goes into their account and you do this audience segments and you don't see this breakdown, I automatically assume that your team isn't keeping up with.
- [05:48]
Kirk Williams
So you're not uploading your custom audiences for existing customers.
- [05:52]
Lauren E. Petrillo
No, you are. You are uploading that as a customer list.
- [05:55]
Kirk Williams
Yeah.
- [05:55]
Lauren E. Petrillo
So inside you're defining.
- [05:57]
Kirk Williams
Come in here and you don't see anything.
- [05:59]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Oh, they're not doing it. Yeah, they're not doing a. At minimum, even if you don't upload the list, if you're using the meta purchase pixel, you can add the purchase pixel onto that right away. Now, you can argue that depending on sensitive ad categories or things of that nature, you don't want to tell Meta, these are customers I don't like. I'm in finance or I'm in politics. Like, I don't want people to know who my customers are because whatever. If you go into it and you see only unknowns, which you can see Underneath, I have Campaign 7 BAU, which is a website registration campaign. So, so in this it says unknowns. This is an exclusive piece only for sales campaigns right now in Meta. So when you create a new campaign, so you click on this green button, you hit create, you have to choose sales of the objective.
- [06:45]
Kirk Williams
Okay.
- [06:46]
Lauren E. Petrillo
So when you do that, the following benefit is you can have the audience definition breakout. So Ralph, you're telling me, like, where do I go look? I look to the right, I can see that of this $4,800 budget, a thousand of which was spent on new audience, almost three grand spent on existing, and then the remaining was on Engage. You can look at this and you're like, oh my gosh, this client isn't going after new customers.
- [07:11]
Kirk Williams
Yeah. I would look at that as you need to do something.
- [07:15]
Lauren E. Petrillo
You're right. We need to do something.
- [07:17]
Ralph Burns
This is.
- [07:18]
Kirk Williams
Yeah, if you're selling to your existing customers, I mean, the business model obviously changes based upon the circumstance here, or the circumstance is dependent upon the business model or weeks.
- [07:29]
Lauren E. Petrillo
In this case, like this is. The algorithm is so trained on going after existing customers and there's another screenshot
- [07:36]
Kirk Williams
that'll show very good point. Wouldn't you if you were meta? Because that's easy.
- [07:40]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Look at what happens in the number that goes next. Okay, so switch the other screenshot.
- [07:45]
Kirk Williams
Yeah.
- [07:45]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Because this is in creative performance. So then I just did another screenshot inside of the performance one. So like again this is all PPC weekly. We have a weekly meeting and we go over all the paid ads and so what I want to draw your attention to is in that same scroll to the right. Look at what we have in our cost per purchase. So our new audience is $171 cost per acquisition and our existing customer is $42. Now engaged is 37. I want you to know that like what we're doing in like building this horse and strategy is trying to build that engaged audience so I can get more people that are interacting with the website, that are interacting with socials, all that to build the engaged audience. Because a $37 cost per purchase is even better than a 42 existing customer. I don't want to go after existing customers.
- [08:30]
Kirk Williams
Sure. But, but you're getting the large majority
- [08:33]
Lauren E. Petrillo
is existing because it's I mean again how we feel about in app roas. It's just, it's still an indicator to take into consideration when we're looking at existing customers are returning a $2.24 for every dollar invested in and $1.95 for Engage and our new people. We're not self liquidating where it's getting a $0 a 0.42 ROAS on new audience. So then things I can look at this and be like okay, we have an issue where we are not growing our new customer base with engaged audience. Okay. Those engaged audiences, those are new customers
- [09:07]
Kirk Williams
and engaged just for definition purposes is
- [09:11]
Lauren E. Petrillo
from when we defined it. We want anyone that interacted with the lead form. We did. Anyone that's visited the website 180 days. Lead form is 90 days. And then we uploaded the full subscriber list to their ecosystem.
- [09:23]
Kirk Williams
Yep. Okay.
- [09:25]
Lauren E. Petrillo
And then we have separately the customer list.
- [09:27]
Kirk Williams
Got it.
- [09:28]
Lauren E. Petrillo
So that's anyone engaged in this audience
- [09:30]
Kirk Williams
definition and they have not activated. They have not activated the purchase event.
- [09:36]
Lauren E. Petrillo
They have not activated the purchase event in an ongoing dynamic situation or they were not in the full customer list when we uploaded it. Hmm. Now you can argue that there could be a drop off again I that's where like I'm not going the data science level of saying to what degree of pixel mitigation do we have of people that are falling off that didn't have the purchase event on it and weren't on that customer list when we do it. So we upload the customer list twice a year.
- [10:03]
Kirk Williams
It's not dynamically updated?
- [10:04]
Lauren E. Petrillo
No, no. The audience definition says the only thing that's dynamic is because it's a metapixel and that metapixel is granted for 180 days only. So you could have someone in theory that was on the existing customer list because of the Metapixel purchase, but they bought 10181 days ago and they're also in a subscriber. So then they're engaged.
- [10:25]
Kirk Williams
Got it.
- [10:25]
Lauren E. Petrillo
But again, to that level of scrutiny and deep dive into trying to say, hey, meta, let me prove if you're right or wrong is not a business I'm in. Which is why I'm like, it's one
- [10:36]
Kirk Williams
of the shortfalls of the platform really. Like the 180 rule on those custom audiences is just it limits the ability for meta to be able to give you true data.
- [10:46]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Okay, it does. And then you have 90 days for lead form interaction. But there's also like how much data are they going to store? Because I have the ability.
- [10:54]
Kirk Williams
So that's my opinion. Okay, well, I look at this and say that that means you are reselling a lot of your existing customers, 70% of your traffic. So you would look at this and you would say warning sign. Because I look at that, say that's a massive warning sign for me.
- [11:12]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Yeah, because if we have, we have 99 purchases. Again, assuming that taking a grain of salt, this is within meta only first 99 purchases, of which 70% are existing customers. Agreed. This is a warning sign for a multitude of things. One, it's not a scalable thing. But two, I want to know why it makes me think lifecycle marketing, our lifecycle marketing, our email marketing, our SMS marketing can do better. Meta shouldn't be able to sweep all that up.
- [11:39]
Kirk Williams
But meta is probably counting those people who have maybe even viewed an ad or engaged with an ad but are buying on your email list.
- [11:49]
Lauren E. Petrillo
I love that you said this because we could do a breakdown of clicks. I can show you view through conversions versus click through conversions.
- [11:54]
Kirk Williams
That's on the screen here. But my guess is that if they have a robust email campaign. Because you've been doing their email, right?
- [12:00]
Lauren E. Petrillo
In this case I'm not doing their email.
- [12:03]
Kirk Williams
Oh, all right. So maybe there's a hole there, but I guess is that of that 70, probably a large portion, maybe 50% are probably view through is my So I love.
- [12:15]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Okay, I love that you're saying that we can guess that because we go in. So view through conversions versus click through conversions. Like, that's a huge thing that we have to look at because that's one of the first things. So if you. If you're looking at this and you're, you know, a performance marketer or a brand owner or whatever, VP of marketing, you want to see what your team is doing when you look at some of these. Like, this is really good fodder for conversation because it's. All right, I need to now do a different breakdown that's going to show me view through, verse, click through. If it's. If you break down that totally separate. And it's great because if you're doing view through, that's like. Like, that's crap. That's really bad. So you can look into that stuff. Yeah. And 70%, that's not what we want to do. Hence, with the Five Horsemen, it's like, I need to grow that engaged audience, because the engaged audience is technically a new customer, according to Meta. But I'm giving you the guardrails to say, I will never live in a perfect society where I trust everything. So you could, in theory, have something that falls off. But that's why I upload a new customer. I upload the full customer list every six months to capture that gap. So I don't have that one 80 issue. Right. But at the same time, though, if we're looking at this, my new customer acquisition, in theory, is 3713. Now, that's new to the brand as a customer. And then the new audience is saying, at $171 is new and completely. They haven't had any interaction, which is why, like, you look at this and you're like, okay, great. If I can start marketing the brand and get more people into my ecosystem, more people into subscribers, more people onto the website, my new customer acquisition cost is cheaper than my existing. That's what we want to grow.
- [13:53]
Kirk Williams
So your strategy here would be to increase the amount of spend that you're making on your engaged audiences. You want more. More people engaging.
- [14:04]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Yes.
- [14:05]
Ralph Burns
So top of funnel.
- [14:07]
Kirk Williams
This is directional. This isn't like a great screenshot from a result standpoint, but it does give you an indication that if you engage with people with. I assume this is on lead forms.
- [14:19]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Lead forms, traffic. So, again, like, the Horsemen thing is, like, you have the. You have the superhero campaigns, Batman and Robin. So your sales campaign and your book calls. Okay. Anyways, so it could be like campaigns of growing an Instagram profile, campaigns of driving traffic to blogs, campaigns of consuming content from podcast stuff. It's doing stuff that I am remember for me, my marketing definition is I'm buying attention and earning trust.
- [14:44]
Kirk Williams
Where is that spent?
- [14:46]
Lauren E. Petrillo
So this, for example, Campaign seven. That is a campaign with.
- [14:51]
Kirk Williams
We need to highlight that down here. Campaign seven. So this campaign seven seven's job is to engage these people up here.
- [14:58]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Now look at how it says unknown. That's again, that's where a limitation that I don't like about Meta right now is this breakdown of those audiences is exclusive to sales campaigns. This website leads generation because they have a lead as a. As the standard event after a lead submits a thank you page. I'm only allowed to do known because the lead event, the standard event for lead, cannot be used in a sales objective campaign. I'm getting super nerdy in this. But that's a part of why I don't use the lead standard event for people that I'm getting to subscribe, lead is a lead because they're interested in what I have to sell. A subscriber is interested in what I have to say.
- [15:36]
Ralph Burns
Wait. My marketing manager finally convinced me to run a wild experiment in this episode. Because we want to prove what the conversion engine can do for your brand. We are giving away three of our $10,000 deep dive audits for free.
- [15:57]
Kirk Williams
We're going to look at your creative,
- [15:58]
Ralph Burns
your media, buying, your actual business metrics to find exactly where your growth is stalled. This is two weeks of our best work, but we only have three spots. So go to tier11.com forward/audit right now. Fill out the form and let's see how we can scale your business.
- [16:16]
Kirk Williams
My concern here is that this spend here is 600 and that's purchase conversion value is how much revs are spent. So why don't I spend on. On this screen, this spend for this campaign is engaging these people. So that $37 is actually much higher because you're spending down here to engage them for $57.
- [16:38]
Lauren E. Petrillo
That's fair. So I'm not looking at a. Because again, where I'm looking at the new customer distribution. You're right. This can be higher, by the way. Oh, shoot.
- [16:47]
Kirk Williams
Yeah, you have to do the cursor thingy. Like our third time doing, like in person. It's kind of imperfect. But anyway, you were saying you need to. If you look at this as a snapshot, you say, okay, people who are engaged, I am getting them at a cost per acquisition or a Cost per purchase that is below your KPI or your allowable cost to acquire a customer. So you need to spend more to engage people. And that typically will come from another campaign, which I assume is this one.
- [17:29]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Other marketing efforts. We have at least five campaigns on every account because we're growing and filling the funnel off. It's a high five.
- [17:36]
Kirk Williams
Is it an iPhone?
- [17:37]
Lauren E. Petrillo
We just leave my hanging.
- [17:38]
Ralph Burns
Hanging.
- [17:38]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Yes. Oh, my gosh.
- [17:40]
Kirk Williams
But okay, because I take one campaign, one ad set, 50 ads, and just call it day.
- [17:45]
Lauren E. Petrillo
That's my Batman campaign. That's my superhero. But I think that's like everything. The stick it in method. Like, you're just like, I'm trying to sleep with you on the first date.
- [17:53]
Kirk Williams
No, no. But in that you have a number of ads and anywhere between 30 to 150 ads in some cases, but you're
- [18:00]
Lauren E. Petrillo
resulting in trying to find their perfect flavor of ice cream.
- [18:02]
Kirk Williams
Yeah, but not every one of those ads is a sales ad. A lot lot of those ads, which is pure engagement ads. It all in one campaign.
- [18:09]
Lauren E. Petrillo
You're doing it all in one campaign.
- [18:10]
Kirk Williams
Because fundamentally is a different way in which you approach this, which I think is very interesting for us to discover and to sort of deconstruct.
- [18:19]
Ralph Burns
But I think the simplicity, like, from
- [18:21]
Kirk Williams
my standpoint, it's like simplicity is like if I look into into any of
- [18:25]
Ralph Burns
our ad accounts and we've got multiple
- [18:27]
Kirk Williams
campaigns, unless we're selling multiple skus for multiple products, usually it's one campaign, one ad set.
- [18:33]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Yeah. But if you're just doing multiple skus, especially if they have a different variety of price points, then you're potentially not doing optimize for a number of conversions. But value of conversions.
- [18:42]
Kirk Williams
We are optimizing for the specific conversion for the specific product.
- [18:47]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Okay. And we're now shifting gears to having each product is a different ad set. I hate that I have to admit defeat on that one. But I lost that battle.
- [18:54]
Kirk Williams
Having said that, you can send everything to it. Like they would done it a lot of different ways. My point is this is like if you've got a thousand skus and we pay well, you shouldn't advertise all thousands sku pick.
- [19:06]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Well, in this campaign, it's a catalog campaign. So. So it's pulling from the catalog too. So it's pulling. So we have that as a different campaign. That's campaign 10. So that's why, again, this is our nomenclature and that's why we'll always have like, this could be a Robin campaign and a Batman can be the direct to Product landing page direct to your service offering.
- [19:27]
Kirk Williams
So does Robin help Batman? Is that how that.
- [19:29]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Yes. Ricky Bobby.
- [19:30]
Kirk Williams
Ricky Ricky Bobby. Oh, that's where it's coming from.
- [19:35]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Shake and bake, baby. Shake and bake.
- [19:37]
Kirk Williams
So the point is this is that the tracking within Meta you can through number of these dropdowns only.
- [19:47]
Lauren E. Petrillo
If you go to breakdown this one here, you choose demographics, scroll over, choose audience segments. It will open this up exclusively for sales. You're absolutely right.
- [19:55]
Kirk Williams
You can give an indication as to show your audiences are engaging with your ads. It's not exact, but it's a starting point.
- [20:05]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Correct. And then I have. You're right. Go back to the other one where you're showing like the cost, the new the NCAG look. I'm using the mouse of 3713. You're right, it's not true because it's not taking back all the other marketing events. There's still full funnel engagement. Now you put, you do an Avengers, right? You put all your superheroes, we do Avenger campaigns into one. Yeah, you do Avenger campaigns. I do. I got the Horseman. I'm riding into the ads apocalypse with quantity. But the quantity there are still different ads. And I like building full funnels inside of Meta's ecosystem because I can grow that engaged audience and we can see that engaged audience has a cheaper cost for purchase. And I'm building the brand and I'm doing the full funnel where I'm courting my customer. So like a campaign campaign, one for us that I really like right now for brands to do Instagram follow growth and people are like, I don't want to spend money on traffic campaigns. I don't want to spend money on reach campaigns. Like I am. Like, Meta created these products. I'm going to play the rules that Meta set forth. Meta encourages us to use all these other campaigns. When I'm building a full funnel inside of Meta, I'm able to tap into other audiences that creative diversification can do as well. But until people have the resources to do the full creative diversification, I can leverage existing tools to grow my engaged audience, which have a lower cpm, which leads to a lower CPA which supports the overall scalability of the account. But you're right, this is not a true NCAC because it's not factoring everything else. But I'm advertising my product and services in this campaign and I'm marketing my brand in the others.
- [21:42]
Kirk Williams
So each campaign has its own individual objective. I just, I think like from my standpoint, I'm a Simple guy. I like to keep things really, really simple. And if you have one, you're a man.
- [21:57]
Ralph Burns
Yeah.
- [21:57]
Kirk Williams
But like you have five different campaigns trying to achieve the objective, which is ultimately is to sell your stuff.
- [22:04]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Right. Okay.
- [22:05]
Kirk Williams
To get new customers to sell your stuff.
- [22:07]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Yeah.
- [22:08]
Kirk Williams
Wouldn't it make more sense to have more simple.
- [22:11]
Lauren E. Petrillo
I don't want to sell my. I want to marry my customers. I want to have their fertile 1k.
- [22:17]
Kirk Williams
Creative diversification does that.
- [22:21]
Lauren E. Petrillo
And I'm not saying that's not like I like that. You and I have different philosophies in the structure build out. And there's pros and cons to both. Don't get me wrong, you're just putting all of yours in that. I like leveraging the other campaigns that have very minimal competition. And at least for me, I see that I am able. Like when we started doing this Horseman strategy, I want to say like a year and a half ago, we were spending on an account $700,000 a month for booked calls. We were like in an Avenger situation when we started bringing in. So what I call Campaign 4. It's the reach campaign objective. But I use other people's words to sell on my behalf using testimonials, using Press and ugc. Yeah. Like if I show you my. My draw you, that's where it is. Ugc, press and testimonials. I use the reach objective. So I was spending from a $700,000 a month. I was spending $100 a day on a Reach campaign, going after my folks. Within 14 days, my cost per book call went down $100 from $700. No, I'm spending $700,000 a month.
- [23:31]
Kirk Williams
I thought you said your book call was seven.
- [23:33]
Lauren E. Petrillo
No, my. Sorry, my ad budget is $700,000.
- [23:38]
Kirk Williams
Okay.
- [23:39]
Lauren E. Petrillo
We launched a Reach campaign. So our first Horseman test of taking other people's words and using a junk campaign because no one likes these campaigns. Like, it's like the. Okay, well, I'm going to try it. Why does it still exist? I've looked on accounts like when I looked at what Shein is doing and all these like, you know, million dollar a day budget campaigns and having those discussions. It's leveraging other campaign objectives. Now if you're.
- [24:03]
Kirk Williams
And it goes after different.
- [24:05]
Lauren E. Petrillo
You do the event audiences go after different audiences. Stupid cheap traffic. And then all of the engage points, if they comment, they like all that sentiment. Provides lead scoring for me is what I'm calling it meta scoring on their likelihood.
- [24:21]
Kirk Williams
Providing awareness for the brand.
- [24:22]
Lauren E. Petrillo
It's providing Awareness for the brand and it's telling Meta.
- [24:25]
Kirk Williams
Maybe this member interested quite yet.
- [24:27]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Depends.
- [24:29]
Kirk Williams
Selling per se this is but the
- [24:31]
Lauren E. Petrillo
content is because I have someone else selling it so it's not in the like I want to instantly make this happen. I am marketing the brand, bringing awareness and letting someone else say the words that me the brand isn't saying. And within two weeks, $100 drop in
- [24:47]
Kirk Williams
cost per book call and then the engaged audience here picks it up. Correct what you're saying?
- [24:52]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Yes. Now the engaged audiences came out I want to say end of 2024 of when you could do those audience settings but so it feels like it's been a long time, but I know that not everyone does it. So this is probably a new concept for a large number of our listeners.
- [25:07]
Kirk Williams
It's a concept that is this is actually the way that we used to do and we find it's much simpler to create an Avengers campaign which is creative diversification and get it all. Because most of the most of the ads that are in a creative diversification campaign do not get the conversion, they get the engagement. And if those ads are highly engaging, Facebook Meta rewards us for lower CPMs on those.
- [25:41]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Sure.
- [25:42]
Kirk Williams
Individual videos, images, you name it. And they don't go for the sale, but they do warm up the right types of audiences with different themes, different hooks. And then the other ads within creative diversification eventually get the sale. Whether it's that first ad creates awareness and then, you know, a DPA ad gets the sale on the second click. That's probably not the case. It's usually it's a video ad engaging somebody on a founder story or like why our brand is different, you know, an us versus them kind of video or maybe some kind of funny, engaging content. I showed you some of the so some of the AI ads that we do are just sort of funny, engaging. We didn't expect to get the sale there, but they're engaging that audience.
- [26:27]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Yes.
- [26:28]
Kirk Williams
And then meta in that campaign will recognize, oh, that's a person who's engaged. I'm going to show them another ad that's kind of similar to that first one that they saw. Maybe it's a little bit more salesy,
- [26:38]
Ralph Burns
maybe a little bit more product focused,
- [26:40]
Kirk Williams
and then maybe a little bit more
- [26:42]
Lauren E. Petrillo
you're waterfall and cascading the concept, creating
- [26:45]
Kirk Williams
the funnel, which it sounds like you're doing manually in a lot of cases automatically within one campaign.
- [26:53]
Ralph Burns
Hey, one of the reasons why you're probably listening to this show is because you're trying to figure out how to finally scale and grow your business.
- [27:03]
Kirk Williams
And if you've been a longtime listener
- [27:04]
Ralph Burns
here, you understand that a lot of the things that we talk about are because we've tested them and done these exact strategies, including creative diversification, all the Andromeda changes, all the stuff we talk about with Google, with social, with email, website conversion, CRO, all of that stuff. If you're listening to this show, you're probably wanting some kind of deeper level of understanding of what does this all mean to you. Well, we want to prove that to you by giving away three of our $10,000 deep dive audits. In that audit, we'll look at your creative, your media buying, your campaign structure, your website, your actual business metrics, including all the MPIs that we talk about on this show all the time, to discover where the gaps are and why your growth has stalled. Now, this isn't one of those AI audits that's automated. This takes our team about two weeks to put together and it's so comprehensive, it blows away customers like this. So here's the catch. We only have three spots to give away here. So head on over to tier11.com audit to claim your spot right now. Fill out the form and let's see how we can scale and grow your business in the coming year.
- [28:21]
Kirk Williams
I mean, the philosophy is still the same. People buy based upon the same triggers. They're not, you know, what is it? Less than 1 in 100 people see an ad and buy it? Yeah, that, that, that leaves 99 plus percent of people, like, what are you going to do with them? Like if they're interested or they've engaged, what is your next message going to be? That used to be, oh, we would do like a level one sort of cold audience campaign. And then it, oh, if they clicked and they went to the site and we would pixel them, we'd show them sort of a level two kind of campaign. Or maybe if they watched a certain percentage of video and we'd show them another.
- [28:56]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Yeah, we'd manually do handheld up.
- [28:58]
Kirk Williams
Right. What I find right now is with the creative diversification, Andromeda specifically, you don't have to do any of that because Meta has known all that, they figure it all out. And then if you match that with good data, piping it back in, they understand all of that. And a lot of the data that's pipes back in through Tier 11 data suite, Wicked Reports, you name it, capping imports, however you do it is the conversion data. But the metrics that we really look at mostly are engagement Metrics to determine
- [29:27]
Ralph Burns
what, what is a good ad.
- [29:29]
Kirk Williams
Yeah, like hook rate, hold rate, link, click through rates, you know, watch times, all of that sort of stuff. So I think what you're talking about is philosophically the same. It's just executed.
- [29:42]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Yeah. Different and yeah, philosophically, everything. Like you said, like the us versus them campaign founder story, I put those in and campaign too, which is a video engagement because I'm trying to grow growth consumption. So I. You're letting meta. So a benefit to yours is you're saying I'm going to spend all my money on this campaign and meta is going to be the most efficient because I'm going to get out of the learning phase.
- [30:05]
Kirk Williams
Yeah. It takes. And you've got all of your ads, all of your top of funnel, middle of funnel, bottom of funnel, so to speak. We all know what those types of ads are. All in one campaign, all in one ad set, usually with zero targeting and just a bunch of ads. We figure out which ones are getting the engagement and then we iterate on those. And then we figure out, all right, which ones are getting the last click conversion. We look inside tier 11 data suite. You understand that? So it's the same thing. It's just that in my mind it's a simpler way of setting up campaigns and it lets our media buyers do more work, lots more different.
- [30:44]
Lauren E. Petrillo
I don't have media buyers anymore. I have growth strategists because again, and there's a manual point. You're right. Like I am using the campaigns and for the content that's existing. So like I'll go back to campaign one, the Instagram growth followers, when I know from the organic effort. So let's say that the team has a social media team and they are telling me which reels are generating follows. I'm going to take those reels. I call them bolstering because we're not boosting them in the app. Don't you dare do that. But I call it bolstering because I take that. Yeah, you like it.
- [31:16]
Kirk Williams
The Batman and Robin bolstering here can barely say it.
- [31:21]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Whatever. It's like, don't boost, bolster. Okay, so when I know that they have an organic piece of content that has a proven follow rate like, or I know that it's generating follows from it. Great. I'm going to take that piece of content, I'm going to use that content inside Campaign 1, go for Instagram followers. And then what I know is on that like, bigger marketing strategy, I am trying to get people to visit the instagram page for less than $0.50 but ideally $0.15 each and then get ultimately a 50% subscribe rate. So now I'm growing the Instagram presence. I'm just, I'm looking at meta as an entire ecosystem.
- [31:58]
Kirk Williams
Yeah, I see what you're saying. And you're using hopefully, I mean you're combining all of those ads to warm people up to ultimately get to the point where maybe they will actually convert a conversion based.
- [32:11]
Lauren E. Petrillo
They're converting on other stuff. It's not that they're only buying here. Like I'm not saying the website leads has purchases on it. I mean in meta, right. 0.27 that's not a roas. I'm not looking to know that sustainable for a business to grow. But I'm getting people to subscribe to a list that are going to self liquidate with inside their email ecosystem and they're already purchasing. I have people buying from Instagram campaigns now. Is it to the same level of buying as a sales object? No, but the way I understand meta is based off of the campaign objective you're doing. You're going after an audience that's going to do something else. So if I want people to socialize on an audience, I want people to see testimonial and hear from other. I'm going to spend as much money as I can to get people to like hear it non stop. I want to be like the digital herpes of testimonials.
- [33:00]
Kirk Williams
You're forcing the algorithm more than letting the algorithm do its work.
- [33:03]
Lauren E. Petrillo
You say forcing, I say leveraging. Because the algorithm isn't made just for sales campaigns. If it was only sales campaigns, why do the other campaigns exist? Philosophically different. Right?
- [33:17]
Kirk Williams
Because there is different advertisers that are out there that aren't performance advertisers that just want reach and frequency and just to be able to get out as much as possible.
- [33:25]
Lauren E. Petrillo
But there are small businesses on Meta and meta's gonna.
- [33:29]
Kirk Williams
I know but like if you're really asking me why those objectives exist, they're primarily for enterprise level non performance based advertisers and to the owls you can use them to your. It's fascinating because I don't think we've ever really had this discussion so. And debates. It's way more interesting face to face as opposed to. Right, so you see it all like pissed off.
- [33:53]
Lauren E. Petrillo
No, I'm like, I'm like. I like that we are philosophically different
- [33:57]
Kirk Williams
and every end of it philosophically different. We're trying to the same objective. The same objective is still selling stuff.
- [34:04]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Yeah, but again same objective of like what we're doing is marketing. We're selling stuff. We're trying to grow businesses in a way that scales, not breaks the brands. Because the two ways that brands go broke, they overspend on marketing, they overspend on labor. And when you're like, you're like I'm focused on ncac, I'm focused on like all like the customer acquisition. When you said that's your role as a marketing agency, the only piece I was like, well it depends on because you're like in that full aspect. I don't believe an ad is responsible for selling. I believe an ad is responsible for earning trust. You buy attention, you earn trust on the ad and then the page does the sale and then the funnel does the revenue optimization.
- [34:47]
Kirk Williams
But I'm being hired to get new customers. And advertising is a part of that.
- [34:54]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Absolutely.
- [34:54]
Kirk Williams
The after the click is absolutely a part of that. The email is absolutely a part of it. Like it all works together.
- [34:59]
Lauren E. Petrillo
I don't want temporary customers. Gen Z is so disloyal.
- [35:04]
Kirk Williams
I want lifetime value customers. I want advocates for our clients that are going to buy over and over and over again. But some like the case study that we're going to be showing here on Perpetual Traffic shortly, like most of these people buy once and that's it. But it's a great product, it's really high average order value and the business is booming. So every business is different. The point is yes, the advertising is the front end awareness. Get your to at least consider and maybe I'll be interested in the brand, maybe I won't be. But that's the front end portion of it. Everything after the fact. Let's not discount that. I'm not discounting that at all. I'm just saying philosophically how do you capture their attention? And we do it in very different ways.
- [35:50]
Lauren E. Petrillo
You play the Avengers, I'm the horseman, I'm riding into this. You're trying to thanos snap.
- [35:55]
Kirk Williams
Well those are like billion dollar movies so I'll go with the money.
- [35:58]
Lauren E. Petrillo
I just want to be clear that this is just the where we start because your question earlier poses how do you know if you're going after new customers? And it's like this is the first place of looking, I mean looking into analytics, looking into CRM, there's other places. And again the vulnerability is I look at that information and the discrepancy between engaged new and existing and I feel between 70, 80% that the data that Meta is providing in that sense sales breakdown is accurate. And again, I own I have not done a CRM deep dive into try to prove if meta's lying to me or not. That's a level of I have to trust the system to a point.
- [36:38]
Kirk Williams
I know for a fact that it's not accurate, but we can maybe even go into it at a later date. Not right now, but at least it's directional. You have an idea that it's directional might not be exact. And I think that's.
- [36:54]
Lauren E. Petrillo
I'm 100% certain it's not exact. I know 100% certain it's not exact. But yeah, nothing is exact. I don't believe in absolutes, except I'm absolute about not believing in absolute. Okay, I recognize the see more fun
- [37:09]
Kirk Williams
about there believing in absolutes. I think that's probably a good thing.
- [37:12]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Like a 70 to 80%. Like again, it's when you have so many things to focus on and the resources. I am not in the business of trying to say like, okay, I'm just gonna assume everything's or I take everything with a grain of salt. So I'll look at this and I'll look at this and I'll look at the bank account and I'll take things like you said, it's directional. And to that level of information I am leaning on because I defined the audiences. Meta didn't. That's why with the audience definitions for who is you upload your list, you have to say a purchase pixel is a purchase. Meta is not making any assumptions on who your audience definitions are.
- [37:50]
Kirk Williams
Sure.
- [37:50]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Audience targeting assumptions all day.
- [37:53]
Kirk Williams
Also doesn't know which product it actually purchased. But that's a whole other discussion. Oh, yes.
- [37:58]
Ralph Burns
Oh, yeah.
- [37:59]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Well, I was like, oh, now we're getting some.
- [38:01]
Kirk Williams
Okay, we'll record again on another pink micro. Maybe like part two of this. Although this might actually be in two parts anyway. But this has been an interesting and enlightening debate. I don't think we've ever talked about
- [38:16]
Lauren E. Petrillo
this in pinkening debate.
- [38:18]
Kirk Williams
It must be the pink microphones that bring this out or just us being.
- [38:22]
Lauren E. Petrillo
You know, I could. I can knock you with this.
- [38:24]
Kirk Williams
Yeah, you're actually right there.
- [38:28]
Lauren E. Petrillo
I like the dock with the microphone though.
- [38:30]
Kirk Williams
Like the dock with the microphone. Exactly. But I can't really do that with my microphone. All right, anyway, well, we appreciate you listening, of course. Please leave us a rating and review.
- [38:39]
Ralph Burns
Let us know what you think of
- [38:40]
Kirk Williams
this episode or any other episodes in the comments over on Spotify, which we're gaining huge traction over there. I just got some data from Spotify. And of course, this is going to be over on perpetualtraffic.com's YouTube, because you did do a screen share. If you were listening to this, I encourage you to go over there and actually watch it. Plus, you can see us with our pink microphones.
- [39:01]
Ralph Burns
And I've never had a pink anything
- [39:03]
Kirk Williams
in my entire life. This is the first time I've ever used pink microphone.
- [39:06]
Lauren E. Petrillo
Come on, you're signing up. Too many. Easy.
- [39:08]
Kirk Williams
So many. Yeah, well, aside, I did see pink in concert, though. So, anyway.
- [39:13]
Ralph Burns
All right, so on behalf of my
- [39:15]
Kirk Williams
amazing in person co host, Lauren E. Petrillo. Till next show, see you.
- [39:25]
Lauren E. Petrillo
You've been listening to Perpetual Traffic.