Stop Losing Clients! Master Saying the Quiet Part Out Loud to Close Deals

Summary

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Perpetual Traffic Podcast Episode Summary

Episode Title: Stop Losing Clients! Master Saying the Quiet Part Out Loud to Close Deals
Date: October 31, 2025
Hosts: Ralph Burns (Tier 11) & Lauren Petrullo (Mongoose Media)
Guest: Oren Klaff, Author of Pitch Anything & Flip the Script

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Overview:

This lively episode dives deep into the art and science of high-stakes sales and deal-closing, with a focus on “saying the quiet part out loud”—openly expressing what’s unsaid to move deals forward, protect your status, and avoid common pitfalls that lead to lost clients and bad deals. Oren Klaff, the “king of persuasion,” returns for his second appearance in a month, sharing tangible, story-packed insights alongside Ralph and Lauren on frame control, status dynamics, and how honesty (tempered with professionalism) closes better, healthier business relationships.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Understanding and Resetting Status in Deal Meetings

• Physical Status vs. Cognitive Status (09:35, 11:31)
  Oren explains that the amount of effort you put into a meeting (flying across the world, for instance) puts you at a status disadvantage.
  • Quote:
    "The conversation has to be at the level of resetting the status imbalance. So the lower you are in status, coming in because of the circumstance, the higher the stakes have to be at the meeting." – Oren (10:55)
• Concrete Story:
  Oren’s negotiation with an Italian company where he asks them, “Are you Home Depot or are we in a relationship?” highlights the importance of making stakes clear and refusing to beg for business.

2. Frame Control and Providing Real Choices

• Offer Real Forks in the Road (13:08, 16:23)
  Letting clients or prospects choose honestly between true options (e.g., partnership vs. transaction) exposes their real intentions and saves time.
  • Quote:
    "Give them two choices to move forward at a high stakes level... if they choose the second choice, it just means they're never going to give you money." – Oren (13:08)

3. “Say the Quiet Part Out Loud”

• Embracing Radical Candor (without profanity) (17:01, 17:29)
  All three speakers agree the most powerful sales move is naming the elephant in the room—what everyone thinks but no one says.
  • Quote:
    "Say the quiet part out loud. That is the key for today. This is the one takeaway. Nobody's going to taser you, nobody's going to frag you, nobody's gonna start crying, right? Say what you're thinking, but leave the words that start with F, S, D... leave those out." – Oren (17:01)

4. Handling Power Shifts and Internal Changes

• Help the Other Side Save Face (18:05)
  When new leaders or managers assert control, acknowledge the optics and offer to help—but clarify if their intent is optics or lasting change.
  • Quote:
    "I will help you look good to your team. But you have to tell me, is this just the optics of you coming in and asserting control or are you really trying to clip our account in perpetuity?" – Oren (18:05)

5. Protecting Your Team and Long-Term Value

• Say No to Unprofitable Demands and Bad Fits (20:29, 22:25)
  Lauren emphasizes standing up for your team when client demands will sabotage fulfillment. Oren underlines that successful salespeople avoid negotiating against themselves, especially with big companies that expect discounts for volume.
  • Quote:
    "What weak salespeople have taught your clients... is that if they wait, you will negotiate against yourself." – Oren (22:25)

6. Timeframes, Scarcity, and Scarcity’s Power in Sales

• Clarity on Timelines (23:24)
  Don’t let prospects drag your sales cycles infinitely.
  • Quote:
    "If you're in a 120 day decision period, you don't have me. My decision period... is 30 [days]." – Oren (24:31)

7. The Difference Between Hot and Cold Cognition in Pitching

• Hot Cognition (Emotion/Desire) vs. Cold Cognition (Facts/Data) (31:16, 39:13)
  Never deliver “cold data” (e.g., price, timeline) with narrative or apologies. Build desire first, then answer the specifics succinctly.
  • Quote:
    "When you give your cold data, it comes without color, narrative and exposition... When you start explaining the data, then people get very skeptical." – Oren (31:59)
  • Concept:
    Build desire before opening “the box” of cold details. Don't give tactics or specifics until the client really wants what you have.

8. Tactics for Withholding Information (the Right Way)

• Don’t Give Away Your Power Prematurely (38:13, 39:43)
  Only provide specifics once there’s clear commitment or intent.
  • Quote:
    "Once you have disclosed [your proposals], then they're going 'great, I'm now going to go see if they make this in China.'" – Oren (37:55)

9. Handling Client Questions About Technical Strategy

(39:27–41:05)
Ralph asks how to respond when prospects want detailed strategy up front.

• Oren’s Advice:
  Re-frame: “Whatever strategy we do, you have to believe in it... lets get to a point where you are such a strong believer in what we do and how we do it, then I can roll out the strategy and you go, yes, that is what we're doing. Does me no good to put 40 hours into rolling strategies because you are coming behind and trying to manipulate it.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• "Are you Home Depot or are we in a relationship?"
  – Oren shares Italian negotiation story (05:10)

• "You're either drinking 13 beers with us, or you're drinking 13 beers against us."
  – Oren on why deals must be binary (07:20)

• "Say the quiet part out loud. That is the key for today. This is the one takeaway."
  – Oren’s mantra for this episode (17:01)

• "I'm not fighting. I am loving. I want to be in a loving relationship with my customers, my partners, my investors."
  – Oren on client fit (13:35)

• "If you replay this... and break this down into actual tactics... you will get a workbook of stuff that will make double your income this quarter."
  – Oren on the actionable nature of the advice (41:42)

• "You don’t sleep with someone on the first date. You’re doing the same thing with the RFPs." – Lauren, connecting dating and sales (39:17)

• "The only power you have is your features, your benefits, your value proposition and your pricing. So once you have disclosed that, then they're going 'great, I'm now going to go see if they make this in China.'"
  – Oren, warning about premature disclosure (37:48)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• [05:10] Oren’s Italian negotiation and status/differentiation
• [09:35] Status imbalances when traveling for meetings
• [13:08] The “two choices” tactic and real autonomy
• [17:01] The power of saying what’s unsaid
• [18:05] Reframing internal/external power shifts as optics or true change
• [22:25] Clients trained to wait out and squeeze deals—how to counteract
• [24:31] Managing deal timeline expectations and refusing infinite cycles
• [31:59] Hot & cold cognition—how to deliver facts (“the box”)
• [39:43] Handling questions about strategy before true buy-in
• [41:42] Oren: “If you replay this...you’ll double your income this quarter.”

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Key Takeaways & Actionable Strategies

• Say the quiet part out loud: Express the obvious reasons, motives, or status issues that everyone is thinking but won’t say.
• Reset the status equation: Recognize when you’re at a power disadvantage and compensate by raising the stakes or limiting the scope of the meeting.
• Set binary choices: Don’t offer endless options or negotiate against yourself; offer real, clear forks in the road.
• Withhold details until desire is built: Don’t “open the box” (facts, features, proposals) until you see true buying intent.
• Acknowledge internal dynamics: When roles or positions shift internally with the client, address it honestly and help the other party “save face”—if mutual benefit is possible.

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Tone & Style

• Playful, bold, direct (with explicit language occasionally referenced but consciously edited for professionalism)
• Story-driven, with professional humility (“We’re just here to have some fun and reveal actionable tactics…” – Oren)
• Emphasis on confidence, candor, and healthy boundaries in persuasion and sales

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If you work in sales, client services, or manage marketing relationships at any level, this episode is a masterclass in protecting your integrity, closing the right deals, and never losing a client—or your self-respect—by being afraid to say the thing that needs to be said.

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For more resources and detailed workbooks, visit perpetualtraffic.com and Oren’s material at pitchanything.com.

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Transcript

[A]

Hey, real quick, before we dive in, if you've got a brand or marketing tool that marketers need to know about, sponsor the show here at Perpetual Traffic. Perpetual Traffic puts you in front of thousands of seasoned marketers, CMOs and agency owners. So head on over to perpetualtraffic.com to apply to be a sponsor of this show.

[B]

The reason deals don't happen is because desire hasn't been built. And so what happens is we have.

[A]

The king of persuasion.

[B]

We have to decide in this meeting. We have 3:30 minutes to figure out, are you Home Depot or are we in a relationship? You have to give people, as we were saying earlier, a real choice. I'm not going there to beg, but.

[C]

How do you do it? When someone shifts their position of power so you're already in a relationship with.

[B]

Them, the key there is framing it in.

[C]

You're listening to Perpetual Traffic.

[A]

Are you losing hours building campaigns and analyzing reports? Well, ActiveCampaign's AI agents do all the heavy lifting for you. They create content, plan campaigns and orchestrate your email, SMS and your WhatsApp all working towards your revenue goals. You get clear recommendations on what to do next backed by billions of data points. No more guessing about what's working or wasting time on manual setups. Just strategy and results. Try it all for free [e-mail] that's activecampaign.com hello and welcome to the Perpetual Trap podcast. This is your host, Ralph burns, founder and CEO of Tier 11, alongside my amazing co host, Lauren E. Petrulo, the.

[C]

Founder of Mongoose Media.

[A]

So glad you joined us here today. If you're a VP of marketing, director of marketing and. Or a persuasion person, somebody who's persuading whether you're sales, whether you're marketing. Yes, we have the king of persuasion. I'm just anointing him this because we've had a lot of persuasion people on this show, but this guy is on for the second time within a month. Really? He actually asked to come back on, which we're still kind of flabbergasted. Why come on our little show, although we are kind of a big marketing podcast, we have got Oren Clough back on Perpetual traffic for show number two. Welcome back to pt, Oren.

[B]

So thank you. Yeah. And the reason I, I like coming on the show and wanted to come a second time is, you know, I get on shows and they go, and I hear Oren Clf here. I'm very excited to introduce him. Sold a million copies of Pitch Anything so. Orin why did you write the book? Hey, are we. Are we gonna have a podcast? You want. Okay. All right. Hey, guys, I'm gonna. I'll just go ahead and take this over since you don't have any qu. Once you run through another one or two questions. Right. Let's just. Let's just see if that was just your, like, tripping over yourself. What are your other questions? Right. What do you think has changed today since when you wrote the book? Okay, that's two, right? Yeah. You've seen American Idol. They're like, let's see what kind of Simon Cowell says. What's your third question? You know, what advice would you give a young person starting out today? All right, I'm taking over this show. All right. All right, guys, let's get clear.

[A]

You haven't read my damn books. Yeah, clear the.

[B]

Clear the deck. So. Right. That is all the truth.

[A]

That is not this show. Well, I guess that's cool because we kind of break the mold. We actually do research and we actually like our guests. So we want our guests to be.

[C]

You're the only six star review I've given on Goodreads this entire year for any business book. I was like, pitch anything. Five star review. Flip the script.

[A]

Solid.

[C]

Six star review. And you even had a hidden chapter.

[B]

Yeah, it's funny. Lauren's introduction. I was speaking at a conference. I was sitting in the back, and the guy I know very well, let's just call him Sam. It's his name. And he's doing an introduction. I hadn't spoken yet. Big conference. He goes, hey, I would like to bring up here quickly introduce a very, very good friend of mine. We, we. We've known each other for many years. He's helped me out in so many situations. This is somebody you can rely on in every. Like, if you called him in the middle of night, he would answer the phone and come do anything you needed. This is one of my. And I'm standing up. I'm walking halfway down the aisle. Jim Rose, everybody diving. Diving for a seat. Are you sitting?

[A]

Just stretching my leg.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[C]

Oh, that's so good.

[B]

Oh, my God, that's so bad.

[A]

Well, with that said, Lauren, you're leading this podcast here today.

[C]

We'll see how long that's going to last.

[A]

Lauren and Oren. Well, Oren's really leading the podcast. Let's not kid her. Lauren, Oren, stop the frame here. But anyway, so you can lob the first question here because with so many.

[C]

The first question.

[A]

Lob the first question after it. And I think, yeah. Why did you write pitch anything? Not that question? Yeah, don't ask that one.

[B]

Yeah, just. And you think you just answered. No pressure, but you think you know the answer. I changed the question. So, look, I flew to Italy since I saw you guys last. And yes, very large company there. They have a new CEO from private equity. And all the humming and hawing is that, you know, he's just making it just about money. Relationships are out the door. You know, you get what you pay for. All your bills are due immediately. And that's not very Italian. No discounts, no relationship, no dinners. It's just about the money. Because of the tariffs and everything in the US there's pressure everywhere. So I go into that meeting literally with shotguns on both hips. You know, those. Those, like, short ones. When I say literally, it means, like, know, figuratively. Ready to.

[C]

I was hoping you showed up cowboy.

[B]

Style, loaded to bear. So we get in the conference room, and my team is there, and his team is there. He's got three people there. His cfo, head of accounting. You know, my team is there. So this is like Hostage Negotiation 101. Everybody's there. And I go, guys, I need you all to clean the room. It's just me, and his name is. So just call him Ferrari. Ferrari is in his name. And Ferrari here, okay? So everybody clears the room. That, like, really heightens the tension. And what we need from them is unique technologies, right? We need you because. But they. They come up with a technology, and they want to sell it to all of their clients, right? But we want the unique technology. So we are. We're special. So they come with these technologies. And I go, ferrari, listen, if. If you are just Home Depot to me, and I just walk in, right? And I can just buy drills, and I can just buy saws, and I can just buy the stuff. And then I got to go back to market and compete with every other contractor out there. And that is all it is, is you're just a big Home Depot. To me, that is a very different situation than what I need. Oh, and. Oh, and why you say this? Why you talk like this? You know, we got to decide. We have to decide in this meeting. We have 30 minutes to figure out, are you Home Depot or are we in a relationship? And he was odd and why you talk like this? But the point is, right, you have to give people, as we were saying earlier, a real choice. I'm not going there to beg, right? And so when you think about status, you cannot fly 7,000 miles across the world, go to a meeting in somebody else's, you know, in a different country, in somebody else's building, and then get in there to do the things that you could do on a zoom call, which is negotiate a contract. If you go to that meeting, the only play you have is you're either going to, as I said last time, you're either drinking. This is the best way to remember it. You're either drinking 13 beers with us or you're drinking 13 beers against us.

[A]

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[C]

I wish you would have said Limoncellos for them specifically, like Frutto di Suko. He was.

[A]

So you knew this, you had done your. You had had conversations with them and they were all about the money. And you're like, wait a second, I've got to reframe this whole thing. And that's how you went into it.

[B]

So this, this is stat. You have to think about the layers of status going into conversations, right? If you have flown to meet them, it's 18 hours, it's $7,000. You're staying in a hotel, like you have exerted, they know you've exerted a ton of energy to come there, right. And, and then you go to the meeting and you're meeting at a senior level. You cannot do the things in that meeting that you could have done on a zoom call. That is low status. The, the, what you discuss at a meeting is relative to how much effort the, the parties have put to go to that meeting. I'm going to give you another way to look at this, but this, you have to understand status. If you flew to San Francisco from New York, right? And then you go to 2 Embarcadero and you waited in the lobby and you read a four year old Sports Illustrated, you finally go to the meeting, the meeting started 15 minutes late. You have exerted an enormous amount of energy to come to that meeting. And they know that they have walked 11ft from their office. So they have nothing to lose. And you have, if that meeting goes five minutes, hey, look, I don't know why you came. It's an impasse. But right where we started. Everybody go home. You've expended two days and you know, $10,000, an enormous amount of effort. They've expended 11 minutes walking from their office, right? So there is these status imbalances exist at every level. And I think you have to recognize it and the conversation has to be at the level of resetting the status imbalance. So the lower you are in status, coming in because of the circumstance, the higher the stakes have to be at the meeting.

[A]

Got it? Makes sense. So simultaneously you're, I mean, I'm interjecting here because this is Lauren's interview, but I guess it isn't. You're, you're, you're exerting status, you're eradicating neediness, you're establishing frame control sort of all at the same time.

[B]

I think what I'm introducing here is physical, which we haven't talked about before is physical status.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As opposed to just cognitive. Right. Who you are, what you are, what you offer, what you're capable of. I'll give you another example. I get on a call with a New York bank on a $30 million financing, right? So I get on the call. I'm the private equity firm that invested in the, in our portfolio company. We have a CEO of that firm, but he's new, so I'm functionally like the CEO. He's the CEO. The financier goes, I'm uncomfortable. Like, who's the CEO? I'm like, I'm CEO. But he's like, we're co CEO. He's been here three days, right? He's been. He's been shadow working the company for a year. He's been on the job for three days. Like, I'm transitioning my title, but it's on a little bit. Like, he goes, I'm uncomfortable with this. Now we have a problem, right? Because I either have to allow him to be uncomfortable with something that is perfectly normal, or I have to explain it to him. Mansplain to him how you have a co CEO and continue to have him like this is and frame me as not normal or the road that I took, right? And Yogi Berra said, when you come to a fork in the road, take it. And I said, thank you. He said, what do you mean? I go, well, thanks. It was nice talking to you. He goes, what do you mean? It was nice talking to you? I'm like, what? Hey, man, you wanted to work. Customers, investors, relationships, people who are comfortable with us. Like, us, like what we're doing. And you're saying you're uncomfortable, so we don't want to work with you because you're uncomfortable.

[A]

Oh, my God, I love it.

[B]

So if you. My. My job, you know, is to give you the exciting things we're doing, introduce you to the people, tell you how our plan is working, what value we deliver, what you would if you invested, what security you would get, right? We want you to be happy. What good is it if I use all my superpowers to convince you to invest in this company and you remain uncomfortable? It's going to be such a hype. So if you're uncomfortable after I've known you for 11 minutes, then I am going to do everybody a favor and go away. Okay? I'm going to, like, just, you know, if this was a video game, I go, if this was a video, I'm just going to step in front of the bullets, take the shot, and I'm just not going to respawn. You guys can wait around, be like, what happened to Oren? I think he decided not to respawn. I'm not. He goes. He goes, no, you have to fight for your deal. I am not fighting. I am loving. I want to be in a loving relationship with my customers, my partners, my investors. And he was, okay, let's forget it. Let's move on. That is, you have to write. He goes, okay, I get it. There's two CEOs. Let's move on. This is. You can call it a takeaway, but there's no risk in offering people two choices in which the second choice, if they choose it, I think we talked about this last time, indicates that you were never going to get money out of them. Give them two choices to move forward at a high stakes level, it seems like you are giving autonomy, but if they choose the second choice, it just means they're never going to give you money. Right?

[C]

Right. So you just saved yourself countless trips. The idea of you going back, okay, fine, you, you lost the full travel day, San Francisco to New York, you lost all those pieces. But versus being three months later and six figures in to a relationship that was uncomfortable from the get go, you're establishing that was the honest choice.

[B]

The honest, if you give people a choice and they take it to exit the deal, not do business with you, you know, continue with their ridiculous, you know, pricing demands and everything like that. Then we, we talked a little bit about this before. If you're doing a deal with Microsoft and Microsoft goes, we need a discount, right? Why do you need a discount? Well, because we buy a lot of stuff and you know, we could be, you know, we could be a $3 million account for you and we, we need a discount, right? And you go, listen, if I do business with you and you're constantly grinding on me because you have power and as the more powerful partner, right? That just doesn't work. We will never be, you will not be a profitable account. So if you, if your position is, we're Microsoft, we get discounts because we can buy, you know, a lot and you know, buy volume and you say we are constantly going to be demanding a lot of service, a lot of volume and force you into a low margin or low price position, then just tell me that so I can make a decision. If I'm in a vendor category where you have lots of choices, right. And you are constantly going to be repricing, grinding, and you view this as a commodity, say we view you as a commodity.

[A]

You know what I love about this approach is that you're saying the things that every salesperson thinks but never really says. They're thinking of the back of their mind. They're like, screw this guy, you know what I mean? Like, or screw Microsoft. Like, I don't want to have to grovel, but my job is to grovel and to give them a discount because they're Microsoft. Or in the case of the Italian that you were dealing with, Mr. Ferrari, I assume it was a Mr. But you did the exact opposite of what the traditional salesperson would do. So look, before we actually hit record here, we talked about frame control. Is limiting choices by. To the buyer by being honest.

[B]

Limiting to. Yes. Say the quiet part out loud. That is the key for today. This is the one takeaway. Say the quiet part out loud. Nobody's going to taser you, nobody's going to frag you, nobody's going to start crying, right? Say what you're thinking, but leave the words that start with a F, S, D of a. Leave those out.

[C]

Right?

[B]

Leave those out.

[A]

That's the takeaway. Holy crap. Like, that's it. Like, that's like you distilled both books down into like. Because that's the essence of the whole idea here is really is I'm this whole being but cutting through the crap at the same time.

[C]

But how do you do it when someone shifts their position of power so you're already in a relationship with them and then whether there's a new CEO coming in, right? Say it was your co CEO who's establishing a different change of narrative or a son who's taking on as a new leadership and they're invoking a new change of environment.

[B]

It's reframing the new change as goofy. Hey guys, this is cool. Like, I get it. You're coming in. We didn't talk about this last time, so be quick with this. You're coming in. You're the new guy. You got establish authority. This is the quiet part that everybody knows you're coming in, right? You're new to this position. You have to be taken seriously. You have to show that you're serious. You have to show your people like you rule. Heavy lies the crown. And I get it and I will work with you. But I need like, I will help you look good to your team. I'll concede 5%. We'll roll over on for 90 days. You go see, motherfuckers. This is how you own a. You know, a customer coming in. The customer's been taking advantage of us. This I will help you look good to your team. But you have to tell me, is this just the optics of you coming in and asserting control or are you really trying to clip our account in perpetuity? Right. If you need my help, I will help you get this done. But if you're actually just trying to reset our relationship, then we have to talk about going different ways. What is this? Is this theatrical and optics and I'm helping you or you really trying to cause us frictional damage? You know, on a relationship that I built with your family and your company for five years. Just tell me which one it is so I can understand what to do from my side. The key there is framing it in two different options. Right. And. And you see what I did there, Lauren, I. I turned it around to I will help you. And that's the set. So you want to say the quiet powder out loud, and you want to put yourself in a position of, you know, I will bend and exert effort to help you, even though I need something from you.

[C]

I mean, I feel like. Well, Ralph is saying that it's a salespeople. You're saying the things that aren't being told. But I actually think it's more of like your team. It's. How often have you had. If you've got a team underneath you where you've taken on clients you know you shouldn't have, or you're working with projects that are way beyond the scope and your team is the one saying, like, why don't you stand up for yourself? Or like, why don't you make it clear, like, stop bending over and showing your underside to them, because they're going to take it every single time. I know that the salespeople will always have that, but I feel more often than not, it's the team that has to feel the consequences of whatever you did when you let them down by changing your relationship of what you're going to do on their behalf.

[B]

Maybe this will help put in context for people. If you raise money, what you'll find is 60, 70% of the money will come in as you're closing the round. Right. Because as people start to see, I mean, the scarcity, the deadline, I mean, it's no different than a Mayday cereal Thanksgiving Day sale. Right. But I, you know, Mayday sale, that.

[C]

Was an interesting one. I haven't seen the Mayday sale come up in quite a while.

[A]

It's big in Russia.

[C]

Okay. I was like, you could get away with singles day or, you know, which is huge in Asia, Saldi, which is massive in. In Italy. But Mayday, okay, let's go for it.

[B]

You know, that's what they do it in. In the homeland. All right, so when, when we raise capital, when you're. When you announce the round is closing and people actually see it going away, then they decide to invest. It's. Right. It's the same with, you know, with the sale. So until somebody actually sees that you're serious about the fork in the road is approaching and you're going to take one of two choices, I think where salespeople mess this up is they go, there's nine choices or three choices or seven choices or 17 choices. And it's a complicated decision matrix nobody can figure out, right? You know, it's ride or die. That's the left lane, right? Together forever or. All right, you may have to cut this part. I'm like, hey, this is great, Lauren. Let's. This is great. Let's. Let's go different directions to, to cover more territory, right? I'll break, right, okay. And then you go fuck yourself.

[C]

Yes, please. I mean, that's what you really want to tell someone's like, I can do this for you, or you can figure this all the fuck out on your own because I'm not going to help you if you're going to engage in this way moving forward. I mean, that's an aggressive one. And as you said, I'd leave out some of those other words, but that's what you're saying in a nutshell. But maybe the Canadian way of sale, I invite you to look with another partner.

[B]

Here's what salespeople are doing, whether it's money or sales. They're saying there is more room, there's more optionality for you to negotiate, for you to wait. And what weak salespeople have taught your clients, what weak salespeople have taught your investors is that if they wait, you will negotiate against yourself. So here's a couple things. Say the quiet thing out loud and be one of the hundred people that will actually say what is going on in this situation. Number two is convincingly and be kind, you know, be polite, be friendly, you know, be there. But convincingly demonstrate that you are not going to negotiate against yourself. Because especially in enterprise sales in B2B, the buyers have learned they, you know, they don't need to upgrade their accounting software. Like today they're looking at doing it. And then you're very excited about making the sale, right? And so they're going, hey, the longer I wait, the longer, the longer I look over stuff, the more sales will come up, the more the price will go down, the more this guy will negotiate against himself. So you've got to firm up. This is what I will do. Listen, if you are saying that you are, we're talking about upgrading the accounting software, right? We're going back and forth and we're, you know, we're at the point where I've got some time in this, you've got some time in this. Like, we got to decide, you know, are we doing this. So if you're saying to me, hey, this is a 90 to 120 day decision. Then you have to tell me because I'm out. I don't know what our pricing is, I don't know what upgrades we are, where, I don't know how busy I am, I don't know my team. 120 days. 90 to 120 days is not a timeframe I can function in. And we did. You know, I'm going to kick you over to Kirsten. She's going to work with you. You know, she's my new intern. She's going to give you the updates, stay in touch with you, make sure you have everything you need. But you, if you're in a 120 day decision period, you don't have me. My decision period, where I am most active, most relevant, give the most amount of value is a 30. So just are you a 0 to 30 day? Are you at 30 to, you know, 90 day? Are you 90? 220. Just tell me who you really are and then we'll make sure you have the resources you need to support yourself. I'm here to help you, but you have to tell me who you really are.

[A]

Lauren, I thought you were going down the route of. Because we're both in service based businesses where we sell and then we have to fulfill and we are constantly like we both have either account managers, client success managers who then manage the client and it's constantly a lot of this going on. You know, it's like, hey, they're like, oh, I want to go this way. Like, you know, we fired a client because they say we just want to do all Google from here on in. I'm like, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I came on the call and I pulled an oring clap. I said, you can't do that because you're going to bankrupt your business. I'm telling you right now, don't fucking do it. And I actually use the F bomb on the call. Similar like maybe I said freaking. But anyway, the point is, is like I was like, you're gonna, we know what's best. I know what's best. This team that's on this call knows what's best. And they ended up staying with us for another three to four months. The business model was kind of crappy. But anyway, the point was, is like we've, we exerted ourselves and said the thing that nobody wanted to say. So when I think of your strategy, I don't necessarily think about it as a front end persuasion, sales and or marketing strategy. I think of it as like a way of like to approach human behavior especially if you're in the services based industry. Like we are thoughts.

[B]

So I think and in that situation I like that I wonder if you come up against it. You can try this framing that I use which is Lauren, I am on your team and I am not allowing you to do that. So as long as I am here and I and I'm making decisions which I am, I'm not allowing you to do that. Here is the plan forward, different way.

[A]

Of approaching it, coming at it for client centric as opposed to like I know it's best which it's probably it.

[B]

Worked but it didn't work that great. It's, it's. I'm not.

[C]

But when you tell someone I'm not allowing you to do that, you're saying I am not going to allow you to do that.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

And then I just for me I've come across where they will lie to themselves and to those around them because they'll be persuaded by the next shiny object TikTok video or conference that they attend where someone has said no, this is the end all be all. And so it's like there's a hand holding like I'm not going to allow you to distract yourself. Like I think, I mean in a personal example where someone's like I want to dive into this channel. Like why would you invest a test budget when there's still so much opportunity in this current existing challenge? Just being very hyper specific for us.

[B]

I want to. But then I want to attack that. I want to attack that. Okay, we go, we, we have this factory that manufactures engineer quartz countertops and I used to go to the shows where everybody from China and India and Pakistan and Malaysia and Vietnam and you know, wherever, Spain, Brazil, they show their, their slabs. These are 1200 pound slabs at the show, right? And these slabs are, are beautiful, right? And then I go back to our technology people, you know the Ferrari and I say my God, I just went to the show. Like the Indians, you know we're Italian, we have the Italian technology. We have the thousand years. The Indians are making these slabs like you want them. It's so beautiful. You want to cry. Like how do they have all this technology and we're getting the second rate. He goes, or anybody can make one of anything. So they make. What happens is at these shows they make, they spend a week making a one off that is not doable in scale. So just to give you a vision like they might Spend two weeks hand layering a single slab, right? Two weeks. Yeah. In manufacturing to be profitable, you have to make a 1200 pound slab every 90 seconds. So it, they do it to hook you in. Like, look at this beautiful thing that we make. Smart. Yes. But it's not doable in scale. So I think you, when, when, when people get that shiny object syndrome, it is the same thing as when marketing agencies come in and they go, listen, we're going to run a campaign for you, right. We guarantee you it's 10,000. You pay us $10,000. We, we guarantee you that we'll make you that $10,000 back. Right. Or you pay nothing because they can skim whatever goofy thing they're doing against your list. They can skim the cream off the top and make the ten grand back. But their campaign, and then you hire them, you know, for six months because, hey, you paid them 10 grand, they got you 10 br. But, but they have, they just took.

[C]

It from your email list.

[B]

They just, they just did the creepiest copy. You know, something unsustainable and they made 10 grand or 100 grand or a million grand or whatever it is. Right. In a, in a one campaign that is not scalable. So I think when that is the reframe of look, anybody can show you something once, anybody can show you something that will work once against your list. But, but beyond that, you know, that's the proverbial launch. Right. Million dollar launch. Right. Is so great. You did a million dollars in a month, but you sold. You know how to walk a dog and a cat, you know how to build a dog and catwalking business in your own neighborhood. You know, overnight. You sold that course to everybody on earth who wants it. Right.

[C]

Your tam has been tapped out.

[B]

Yeah. Your, your tam has been tapped out. Your Sam Tam Tom is gone. And everybody wanted that course because you spent six months launching that campaign. Yeah. You know where everybody who wanted dog flavored toothpaste has now bought it and there's nothing left.

[C]

Dog flavored toothpaste is like a Korean specialty or something. Like you're tasting dog. You mean toothpaste?

[B]

Four dogs.

[A]

I wake up in the morning, I.

[B]

Feel like, I feel like you just invented a, a form of framing which is like what. When somebody calls you on something? So like. Well, it frequently happens in North Korea. It's like, it's unverifiable changes. When did you ever see that? It's very popular in North Korea.

[C]

Yes. And, well, it started first in Cuba and then really took off in Zimbabwe. But the North Korean market has latched onto this and I think they're really moving, they're really into taking this global.

[A]

Moving a lot of product. Before we go, we've only got limited time left. I've got to ask you about when and how do you insert hot and cold cognitions?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Back to pitch. Anything. We haven't really touched on this all that much. Like the norepinephrine versus the dopamine. Like, when do you do it? How do you kind of like that was one of the questions. This is a very self serving question, by the way, because I was like, when do you actually do it? Do you do one before the other? What are your thoughts on it? I don't think we hit on it.

[B]

In the first episode. Yeah, I think, I think this is very important. So when I think people intuitively do this backwards, Right. When people ask them for data, they get into selling mode because they feel defensive, right? Yes. And when people ask and people want.

[A]

To know what's going on, they're asking technical questions, you respond. You're like, oh, well, I got that. Yeah.

[B]

I want to make sure when you give your cold cognition, your cold data, it comes without color, narrative and exposition and even I have to work on this. So we're going to get when to do cold and hot cognition. But when you eventually come around to saying what it costs, how long it is, what the contract is, what the terms are, you know, what you get, how much is upfront, how much is paid along the way and what the, you know, cancel terms are, it can't come with, with color and exposition. When you give people their cold data, they want it cold. They want all the data delivered at once. It bookended without explanation. When you start explaining the data, then people get very skeptical about the information that you gave. They want it cold. So the hot cognition, the reason deals don't happen is because desire hasn't been built. And so what happens is, and I learned, we talked about this beginning, people move into the data before there is desire until somebody wants what you have. And this is where we talk a little bit about the box. So the, the way that I think about it is you have a box with your cold data in it.

[A]

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[B]

And what the buyer wants is for you to open that box so they can see the goodies inside of it. You keep the lid on that box.

[A]

All kinds of questions.

[B]

Yeah, all kinds of questions. Look, I have, I have. And this is the, this is where entry comes from. I have what you want. I have the data. I have the pricing right. Suspend disbelief. You want to know what it costs. It costs what you think it costs. We are a real firm, okay? Like you could. You walked into Home Depot. You said, I don't want to. A Samsung fridge. I want, you know, glass front. You know how much a Samsung fridge costs. You want the, not the Viking, but the, what's the, the, the super $15,000 one. Yes. So guess what the $15,000 fridge costs. Go ahead, Lauren, guess. Yes, correct.

[C]

$15,000.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Like, what time is the three o' clock parade? Worst question at Disney ever. Okay, so you're, how much is the $15,000? You establish the cold stuff. You're like, you don't get.

[B]

If I have a, I have the information you want, like when we can start, when the kickoff date is what it costs. But you, it costs what you think it costs. The kickoff, like all that stuff. When I, when I show you the value proposition, right? You're going to go, yeah, that's what I thought. Because we're a, you know, we're an American firm in your market serving customers like you, solving problems that you need. Like, so let's, let's suspend disbelief for a minute. It costs what you think it costs. You're going to be able to negotiate a little bit. I'm going to roll over because. Look at me, you know, I want the account. Say the quiet part out loud. This is a new account. My job is to bring in accounts. I have a quota. Yes. You're going to be able to leverage me a little bit. No, I'm not going to roll over on 10% discount. Yes. We're going to like all that is going to happen. But I don't like, what do you want? Okay, what do you want to have happen? Do you want somebody to come in? You have budget, right? Do you have budget set aside? You want somebody to come in and take this over, make it happen for you? Right? Hands off. Or are you really a do it yourselfer and you go, if I can get the full service One at the do it yourself price. I would take it. What do you want? Right? What are you excited about happening? You know me, we've gone through the basic pitch, right? What is your vision for what we do for you? Where are you in the process? What do you want to make happen? Okay, great. So we got to get some sense of intent, some sense of desire, and then if somebody goes, is holding their cards close to the vest, which people do, and they'll say, look, uh, my job is to collect the information. It's very good that you provide this product. You know, I'd like to get a RFP on it and you know, show it to my team. Then like that's where you are. And then you have to appropriately put that in your RFP winning cycle. So this is a 30%. What you're trying to do is you're trying to take a 30% account. And I want to make sure I answer your question, Ralph. Trying to take a 30% account and turn into an 80% account. But if they say, honestly we are a 30% account in terms of viability of closing, we're looking at multiple vendors. I will not give you emotive content on this call. I'm not going to say I'm leaning in. I'm not at a stage where I can give say, look, this stuff really looks good. I'm going to push this to my team. And they're just being cold and saying, submit an rfp. Then you can test that, right? And say, hey, I will give you round numbers and we'll give you, you know, frames will give you frames, you know, inside an rfp. You can work with the team. But if you are really looking for a do it yourself low cost solution, that's probably not us. But there's no sense in you giving away your power. The only power you have is your features, your benefits, your value proposition and your pricing. So once you have disclosed that, then they're going, great, I'm now going to go see if they make this in China.

[A]

Yeah, so I have to withdraw, withhold.

[C]

But they can't once, maybe once.

[B]

So you have to establish desire. You may not be able to get it on that call. And, and so what does desire come from? What are the components of diet? That is the hot cognition, dude. Lauren, you have high energy. I like you like, if you were working on my account, I don't know if we can afford it. But if you were working on my account, this would be amazing. You're like the best rep we have. Number two Is I, you know, again, we have to go through a process. But when I look at your reviews, when I look at things you're capable of, like, it is a one to one match for what we need. Like this. I don't know if we can get pricing. I don't know if I can fight the other people, my team, who want, you know, keep the account we have. But man, this is really exciting to me. Right. And if you'll lean in, I'll lean in. And until there's some version of that in place, you're giving away all your power by just walking them through. You know, the features, benefits, value proposition and price.

[A]

So really withhold it when it's asked. I mean, or you just, you don't.

[C]

Sleep with someone on the first date. You're doing the same thing with the RFPs.

[B]

Run me through some tough questions that you would get on the other side, Ralph, and we can wrap on that. And I'll see if I can, see if I can get them framed out for you.

[A]

One of the big things is like, all right, what are you going to do in my, what's the strategy in my Google account or my Meta account, You know, what are you guys going to do in there like that? Those are technical questions. Oh, well, the answer would be we would do this strategy. This strategy, this strategy, this strategy. As opposed to.

[B]

The answer should be whatever strategy we do, you have to believe in it. What I can't do is execute a strategy on one day and be second guessing it on day two and then be adjusting the strategy on day. Strategy, by definition is something we're going to do for 90 days. And I really don't think you and I are at a point where you go, ralph, we, let's do the 90 day plan. All right, so no matter what strategy I tell you right now, right, you're gonna go, I love the strategy. The day after I spend, you know, 40 hours and we start to execute it, you're going to be second guessing it. So I want to get to a point where you are such a strong believer in what we do and how we do it, then I can roll out the strategy and you go, yes, that is what we're doing. Does me no good to put 40 hours and 40 hours and 40 hours and 40 Hours into rolling strategies because you are coming behind and trying to manipulate it. So let's get to a point where either believe in each other or we don't. Once we believe in each other, let's get into the strategy that we agree on and then go do. It's strategy, tactics. I'll do tactics. I'll do free for you today. Let's log in the account. I'll give you. Let's go do tactics. They no relationship.

[A]

So it's going higher level than I think most people. It just, most people just get sucked into those cold cognitions and just immediately.

[B]

Cold, cold, cold, cold, hot, cold, cold, hot cognition is what are we doing together? Are, do we trust each other? Do we believe in each other? The bigger TED Lasso. Go watch a season of Ted Lasso and then come back and say I believe and then we can start together.

[A]

He knew nothing about tactics, was very successful. This has been tactical and strategic and high level all in one. Tactical, but tactical still. And we actually got some of the questions that we really wanted to get answered.

[B]

If you replay this, if you listened and you replay this and you put in your AI and say, get rid of Lauren's jokes. Sorry, sorry. Get rid of Orin's jokes. I get us sometimes I get us confused. Get rid of orange jokes. Break this down into actual tactics. I can go do today. You will get a workbook of stuff that will make double your income this quarter. All right? This stuff is real. The reason we have fun with it is, is it's easy when you are able to do it. Okay, so our job here is not to give you a masterclass. Our job here is to have some fun and reveal to you guys, you know, that there's things you can do, but the things you can actually do are, you know, this is Dan Brown's the Secret of Secrets. We just did it.

[A]

That's right. Well, we're going to do the Secret of Over a Perpetual Traffic. Just take the whole transcript and then just boil it down and say, what exactly did Oren say? And just bullet by bullet. Biggest thing I got from it is actually say the thing like the 800 pound gorilla, like what is that thing that's in the room? And it's like. And do it in such a way so that you don't come across as an arrogant prick, which I did, I've done. But it sort of. I never really seems right. So, like that's been great. And I think it's counterintuitive to a lot of salespeople, a lot of client success people, like anybody who's dealing with clients or customers on a regular basis, like all of this stuff applies. And we didn't once ask you why you wrote the book. So we actually got like into the actual book because we've read excellent.

[B]

Right?

[A]

So this has been amazing, having you on twice in a month. You know, I don't even want to ask for a third time, but, you know, we'll figure that out on email.

[B]

Where can people show up?

[A]

I don't. Showed up in your office, by the way, and you weren't there.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know.

[A]

You were doing Italy something. I don't know what you were doing.

[B]

This was just on my calendar. I don't think I even accepted it. I'm like, oh, I saw it. I'm like, did I even. Did I even agree to that?

[C]

That's. That's my framing the position. I just show up. Yeah, it's gonna be like, hey, I'm here at your house. We have a date right now in five. Let's go.

[A]

It's like, ding dong. Hello.

[B]

All right. Anyway, on stage. I'm gonna go. We're wrapped and I'm excited to see this episode come out.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Where can people connect with you? Where's the best place to connect with you?

[B]

Please, just go to Warren. Well, even easier pitch. Anything.com. put your name in. And away we go.

[A]

Perfect. Thank you so much for coming back on Provincial Traffic.

[B]

Thanks, Ralph. Thanks, Lauren.

[A]

On behalf of my amazing co host, Lauren Ipatrulo, who has to run on stage right now and I have to run to another meeting.

[C]

Ciao.

[B]

Away we go.

[A]

Ciao till next show. See ya.

[C]

You've been listening to Perpetual Traffic.