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- [00:00]
A
Hey, real quick, before we dive in, if you've got a brand or marketing tool that marketers need to know about, sponsor the show here at Perpetual Traffic. Perpetual Traffic puts you in front of thousands of seasoned marketers, CMOs and agency owners. So head on over to perpetualtraffic.com to apply to be a sponsor of this show.
- [00:19]
B
We've been testing this and then also scaling it. Last 14 days we spent 91% up and we can see we're like 2% up in costs, 22% down in cost. I mean, we basically added ads and all this stuff's going good. What we've identified is that Andromeda has a very specific, specific way that it likes to optimize, which is you're listening to Perpetual Traffic.
- [00:43]
A
Most AI tools are like a helpful assistant that just waits for your command. You have no idea. You type it in, you just give it a piece of content and that's a start. And it's all about the prompt, right? If you don't get the prompt right, then pretty much everything falls apart or you spend more time with prompts than you do actively doing the work. But at ActiveCampaign, we believe AI should be more than a passive tool. It should be a proactive partner. Imagine that. We call it autonomous marketing. It's a full AI agent that works in the background to help you imagine, activate and validate. You don't just ask it to write, you give it a goal and it helps build the entire campaign. It suggests high value segments you didn't even know you had. It predicts your deal's win probability before you even make the call. Our AI handles the busy work so you can focus on the big ideas. It's the difference between a tool and a true teammate. ActiveCampaign is the autonomous marketing platform. Find out for free over@activecampaign.com if you are not tuning in every Friday, 2:30 Eastern, I highly recommend that you do so. Head on over to tier11.com YouTube. Subscribe to the channel, you'll actually see this stuff go going live. We don't repurpose every single Friday, only the best ones that I think are most relevant to this audience here that listens to this show. Quarter of a million of you every single month, which we really do appreciate you tuning in each week. And I think it's largely because we're actually doing this stuff. We are not just theorizing how these things work, we're actually going out and doing it. And John, fortunately, as a member of the tier 11 staff here has been testing and actually with his own money and his own businesses since early part of this year, even before anyone was talking about the Meta Andromeda Update. Now you see blog posts, you see videos of it all over the Internet. But back in early part of this year, nobody was doing it. So we are, we feel like we're about 10 months ahead of everyone else in testing this stuff, which is probably the reason that you listen to this show, to get these cutting edge strategies. So we've spent over $10 million on the Meta Andromeda Update right now and are finding new things every single week. That's the key with all of this. And when John test it in his own sort of business accounts and brings that over to 211, it allows us to be able to scale businesses faster than they ever could. And what we found is that with the Meta Andromeda Update there is a lot of things that you need to do as a media buyer and a strategist that are counter to how you would do prior. And I mean this one here today is probably one of the most important lessons that we've learned. John has learned this firsthand and is passing it on to you here. So there's an old maxim that everyone's heard inside the media buying world is to cut your losers and let your winners run. Or as I like to say, I probably stole this one from Perry Belcher. Starve the ponies, feed the stallions. Not very popular with the horse crowd obviously. But the point is, is when you go into your ad account and you see one ad that has $8,000 in spend and one conversion, you usually would say, oh, I need to pause that. Well, what we show today is that's actually the complete opposite of what you should be doing. So in the Andromeda era, that rule can actually kill your performance. And we're going to go through this here today in today's episode, which is really exciting. So if you're listening to this, I highly recommend that you go over and watch this over on our YouTube channel, perpetualtraffic.com forward/YouTube. Check it out there. And of course tune into the ad labs every Friday at 2:30 Eastern. Because in this episode we break down why CPA in app is no longer a reliable metric and how sequencing and spend based models reveal the real winners and why pausing those bad ads might be the fastest way to wreck your scaling. So if you've killed an ad too early in the Meta Andromeda Update and you're having results that are going Sideways. This is probably the reason why. So we also talk about the meta algorithm here, why UGC Creative and creative diversification is so vitally important and it all works with these strategies together. So we obviously we tie all that in with tier 11 data suite. Now, for those of you who have been struggling to nail down this new way of doing things for the Meta Andromeda update, you are not alone and we have designed an offer specifically for you. If you say, all right, this is all great, I can get my team to do this, but I'd rather have somebody do this. Somebody has been figuring this out for 10, 11 months now. Well, we've got an offer for you here today. And this is for you, the Perpetual Traffic Listener. We have not released this to the general audience as of yet. We are offering a buy 1 get 2 free offer for you through the end of this year, through the end of 2025. We're sneak peeking this just to you, the Perpetual Traffic listener. You can actually buy the creative diversification package, which is 30 plus ad creatives every single month using those 10 different ad types which John and I talk about on this show here today as well as shows in the past. But you'll get the media buying and the tier 11 data suite for free. So you buy the creative, you get the media buying and you get the Tier 11 data suite for free. So this is for you, the Perpetual Traffic listener. We don't even have a sales page set up for this as of yet, but we're going to be offering this starting November 1st for the generalized audience. So if you are fast acting and you want to get this stuff done right now and set yourself up for for success in the end of 25 and into 2026. Head on over to tier11.com apply today. Fill in the application because we're only doing 11 of these through the end of the year. That's all we have capacity for. Once again, it's by the Creative Diversification package which we talked about here on the show many times and get the media buying and the Tier 11 data suite for free. Check it out over@tier11.com apply. So without further ado, let's get to John and myself. We talk about the biggest mistake that you're probably making with the Meta Andromeda update and how to fix it here today by not pausing your ads. We're doing some crazy Wolverine kind of shit today on today's Ad Lab. Sequencing, huh?
- [07:31]
B
Yes. Yes. So good.
- [07:33]
A
I love so good. Andromeda is like the coolest Thing I was just explaining this to a would be client of ours which hopefully does become a client, actually have a great business, but it's like they're not doing Andromeda. They're not doing what we talk about every single week. I'm like, sorry to say it, but like you need that. And they've got a great creative team. So we could, the strategist could just like tell them all the 10 different types of ads to do and boom, we create Andromeda and magic happens. Yeah, but he said this, and this is going to be interesting. He said cut the losers and let the winners run. Which is fine unless you're in the Andromeda world because it's not necessarily, you know, they're not necessarily equated, which I know you showed an example last week of like one ad that had like all the ad spend but only one conversion, but it was leading to an overall global NCAC for all the ads. Well within the range that that client wanted.
- [08:33]
B
Correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah, yeah. And I think that that's kind of what we're seeing, like kind of a, almost like across the board. It's actually really interesting what we're seeing now. It's so good. It, it's so interesting. I'm just going to dive right in. It's hard to, it's hard to kind of like summarize unless I use a. I'm very visual, so I can't explain. I'm like an Italian that's handcuffed. I get a speech impediment if you like, because I can't talk.
- [08:55]
A
I think you are part Italian because like you need. But if Italians needed screen shares, you would be Italian.
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B
Screen share.
- [09:02]
A
Like this? Yeah.
- [09:03]
B
My, my, my. This is screen share. Perfect. Perfect. So you'll, you'll notice there's no ad sets or campaigns mentioned in the entirety of the Andromeda model, which is so funny. I love it. This part here, I'm kind of. We've been following this very, very closely for many accounts. And to summarize what we're about to explain these two things here, you got user requests and you had ads corpus. This is everybody in meta. This is your ads. And through a basically three step process, meta is going to find what is resonating. And this portion right here looks like a big old, you know, the hierarchical model is like a big old gobbledygook. Like it just looks like, okay, cool. The, the, the spaghetti is getting smaller. Like that's basically what this looks like here. What this is signaling is we're testing different ads, different creatives, different users, different targetings, and we're getting the sequence more streamlined. So when it says, cut your losers, let your winners run, the losers are not CPA defined. Like, in my opinion, and you correct me if I'm wrong when they say, cut the losers and let the winners run. You probably heard that from a CPM perspective or it's like a CPA perspective. It's typically how people say, well, a winner must be in cpa. But again, in a hierarchical model where you have, you know, sometimes one. I mean, if you follow this 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, I missed one. But, you know, 7, 8. Basically how those users are moving through the ad sequencing, if they click and buy, it could be on the first one before they retarget them. It could be on the second one before or, like, after they got hit with the first one. I mean, you only get one checkbox out of all of these here that says that this is running. This is why I've always said since day one, focus on spend, don't focus on CPA. Attribution model is poor. Spend model is actually 100% accurate because it's being spent on. So when we look at this thing, we say, okay, well, that sounds cool, but tell me how that works. Like, show me, like, how this is working. So inside of our own campaign, we've been testing this and then also scaling it. Last 14 days, we spent 91% up. And we can see we're like 2% up in costs, 22% down in cost, 12% up in cost. I mean, we basically added 80 AGs. And, you know, it's just up, up, up, like, nice chef's kiss. All the stuff's going good, but it's not necessarily. What's funny about this is when you look at the spend. Let me just take off the last 14 days here. If you look at the spend descending and you look at the cpa, it's like, well, John, that one's better than that one. That one's better than that one. That one's better than that one. Like, you know, this one here, this one here, and this here. John, these are doing better. Like, if you look at, like, you got a 263 compared to a 279. You got a 251 compared to 279. This one actually is something that we're reiterating the SIB with Red Boost. And it's like, man, you got a 661. That's pretty terrible. So why are you not spending more on those? Why are you still spending on that? And this is where CPA is a poor judge of performance. We don't think exactly what we're talking about. Bingo. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Now here's using the tier 11 data suite. I'll explain why. And it becomes so freaking clear. Using tier 11 data suite on how to identify the sequencing. Moving through. Okay, now total leads.
- [12:15]
A
We've never shown this before.
- [12:16]
B
I know.
- [12:17]
A
This way.
- [12:17]
B
This is new, it's exciting new.
- [12:20]
A
Listen, nerding out on this, but when.
- [12:22]
B
You cook in the meth lab, there's no shortage of energy. Like that's what I'm saying. It's, it's right there because it's chaos.
- [12:28]
A
Chaos comes with it. But lots of energy and lots of meth amphetamine. So keeps going. So that. And bang.
- [12:35]
B
That's true. Well that's basically my Met so legal. It's all good.
- [12:40]
A
Yep.
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B
So more energy, less jail. It's great. So total leads inside of here is signifying add to carts. And that is just what we have to all just agree on that when it says total leads, this isn't lead gen. This is how this is identified by like begin checkouts. Like we have their, their information they're beginning to check out. So when you have the add to car you're thinking about or when you have the leads you have like your beginning checkouts, you add to cards like you're, you're moving into the next stage after the click.
- [13:10]
A
Do you have that labeled that way specifically? Just so.
- [13:13]
B
No, that's just a default.
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A
It's just a default. Okay.
- [13:15]
B
Yeah, yeah. So it's just a default. So basically it's like that's how we're, we're optimizing it. So here's what we look at, is okay, so got Clarence and Clarence is doing okay. All right, so remember we highlighted the ones that are working well. SID delivers more. This one, remember this one was doing so terrible. Sid with red boost. Man, that was doing bad that one. Sid with red boost was like 664. Yep. Terrible. So while we're looking through all these, what we have to notice is while we're highlighting. You know what, I'll group them together. This is the group here and this is a group here. Let's just use these. Let's. You know. Oh, you know what, I'll do it this way. Haha. I found colors inside of here. So this one is green, these two are green. And I'll make these two, we'll make them blue so that we can identify the differences between them. So they got two different groups. The green group is ugc, the blue group is non ugc. They're product highlights. What we've identified is that Andromeda has a very specific way that it likes to optimize which is showing all as to all users and developing the sequence of what needs to see first, second, third, fourth on top of that matrix you're layering in your pain points, your hooks, your offers. So you're, you're trying to basically have product market fit. That's all you're doing. But you're doing that with creative. Right. So. But not everyone is going to see everything 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th. Not everyone's going to click the 1st, 2nd, third, fourth. Not everyone's going to buy from the 1st, 1st, 2nd, third million and click. So we have to identify what is the trends analysis that we're doing on the users. And you're going to notice that in the green and I'm not going to use the same color green because I'm not that good in selecting RGB wheels. But you're going to be able to see that this has some fairly good amount of cold traffic. He got 63, 77, 71 and then in the bottom row about the same, 70, 74. Okay, good. Now you're going to also notice do.
- [15:00]
A
Visit percentage by the way.
- [15:02]
B
Yes, is a percentage. Exactly.
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A
60 to 70%. Like that's really good. Exactly.
- [15:08]
B
Yeah, that's, that's actually very good. That's a, that's a hefty amount of cold traffic in terms of metaland. Correct. But you see the blue is in the 40s. So now you're seeing okay, more first time visitors on UGC, more second time visitors on the product ads. Okay so we're starting to establish a tre now. Let's dive a little bit deeper into that trend. Now the first trend that we're going to notice is okay what how many clicks before how many add to carts? So we got 10,000 clicks, 189 add to carts. Okay, 63,000 clicks, 62 add to carts. Okay, 24,000 clicks, 79 add to carts. All right, so kind of, you know, all over the board, but a lot of clicks, tens of thousands for not a whole lot of conversion, Not a lot of add to carts. Right. That's because that's the first interaction that they've had with that product, that add our brand, etc. It is like, hi, I'm John. Next thing out of the customer's mouth is going to be like I'll buy one today. Right. We're skipping the middle part. So next we have to look at. Now how did the blue do?
- [16:07]
A
The blue 1% thereabouts. It's about 1%. Well maybe not the 24,000, but it's about 1% which is about. That makes sense. Like we usually say like 1% of your traffic is going to click and buy. In most cases this is an add to cart. So it's not entirely accurate.
- [16:21]
B
But yeah, yeah, it's like we're starting to see that the trends analysis. Now let's go down to the blues. Now after they click they look, look at the product. You know, they've maybe added to cart. Most of them didn't. But you got a lot of understanding about what this is. So actually let me, let me, I did everyone a disservice. Let me back up one step. What has happened so far that we discussed is we've shown a UGC ad to fairly cold traffic. We say hey, look at this dog. This dog was sick and now they're on the mend. And look at the before and after. They were kind of like, you know, not that great. Now they're happy. Health. They said, wow, I love success stories about dogs being healthy. I wonder how that happened. I'm going to click the other ones say you know what, great for the dog. Happy, fun story. I'm scrolling on great. So the people that, the people that click, they say aha, that's the product. They're learning about it and they say that's interesting. You know, maybe I'll come back to this. I'll look at this later. They leave. Now the second thing that happens most often based on percentiles of user journeys is we identify that the product that has most often the second click because we have a lot warmer traffic. We also have a lot fewer clicks. Now these, these fewer clicks will highlight these the same that we highlighting the green. Now we have 303,752 compared to 76. That's a vast difference because if we look at 24,000 got us 79. Only 3,000 got us almost 79. So you can see that these people are much more warmer.
- [17:47]
A
Right.
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B
And there's a lot fewer visits but a lot higher added cards. Look at the next one down 3, 900 very similar to the 3700. 232 add to carts. Okay, very interesting. So now here's what's interesting that you got the SID delivers more and you got a SID with proc red boost. Their second click, warm traffic, high amount of add to carts. Let's take one step deeper. I'm not going to X out of this. I'm just going to use the use this version so it's the same screen. I'm just not drawing on it. But what you'll notice here is those 232 in the sieve with Redboost. If you click on this from a total add to cart, this is first click attributed by the way is the attribution model that we're using. You'll notice that in here, out of 232 total add to carts in this campaign, 182 were new. Ah, second click, first add to cart. Aha. So we have first click. Not that many add to carts, second click. A lot of add to carts. Okay, now let's see what the SID with red boost is. The sib with Red Boost 2. No, sorry, Sid delivers more 76. So now we have Sid delivers more 276. Now let's look at these. 72 out of the 76 are new and only 4 re engaged. Okay, so what this is telling us is that when they see the first one or two or three ads there is a massive ton of clicks and then when they click again there's a massive amount of add to carts. We look at our essentially. Oh, there it is. Ncac. The SID delivers more and the SID with red boost is393.292. On the Tim dog it's636. Well on the Tim Dog which I don't know where Tim Dog is. Oh no, I'm sorry, we did end up pausing that one. I'm looking at last 30 days and I'm querying last 14 days. Let's just move on to the ones that have have ads. We we paused Tim and Paul. So Clarence here for example, let's just find Clarence. So there's Clarence right here. Clarence has got a 276NCAC and the SID with red boost is 292. So Clarence is 301 SIB with red boost 664. Wow, that's very different, isn't it? Sure is, yes. Now if we were to go ahead and say, you know what, I just don't think that civil red boost is working at 664. Remember the meta Andromeda engine is last click. Yeah, we're importing though first click conversions. So when you import first click and it says hey, this is the amount of people that did the Last click, it means that this is getting the highest amount of add to cards per click. But that is not where they started or where they necessarily ended. Okay, that's fine. But I'm not going to take one of my biggest add to cart performers and shut it off because the CPA isn't there.
- [20:36]
A
Hey, you know, when I was first at a consultant actually doing the stuff that we're doing right now in Tier 11, one of the first tools that I learned how to use was from a company called Unbounce and they are now a sponsor of perpetual traffic. And the reason is, is that their landing pages and how quick you can create those landing pages without having to consult your designer, your developer. With drag and drop builders now built in AI copywriting, it's even better than when it was 10 years ago when I first started using it on my own to create my very first landing pages. These guys are absolutely amazing. They've got conversion optimized templates giving you everything you need to launch your pages on your own without developers. In fact, Unbounce is the leading landing page platform for building, testing and optimizing high converting pages powered by data from from over 2 billion conversions. That is 2 billion conversions with a B. That means they know what converts. So if you want to convert more customers one platform and launch pages fast, Unbounce is offering PT listeners a special offer. They are giving you the PT listeners 10% off when you enter a coupon code PT10OFF over@unbounce.com forward/pt. So head on over to unbounds.com PT, enter code PT10OFF and cash in today. Convert more customers with one platform, launch pages fast. You shouldn't have to wait for your designers and developers to build and test your landing pages. Get started with Unbounce today. If you didn't have tier 11 data suite, plug plug, tier 11 data suite, of course you would have made a very large error. We probably would have paused it.
- [22:22]
B
Yeah. I mean, if all signs pointed to, well, yes we would. This would absolutely be something that we would end up pausing, but this is something that we're going to be continuing on with further. Right.
- [22:34]
A
So it's early days anyway. Like the ad's only been live, what, a day or two?
- [22:37]
B
Yeah, yeah, it's been like three days now. What's the first thing? I launched it in the first three days. It doesn't look that good. So I paused it. Every freaking person I, you know, I launched the campaign or launched ad and in the first week I started hacking off ads. That are having low CPA or high cpa.
- [22:51]
A
Again, the old way of doing things.
- [22:52]
B
Exactly. You cannot do it that way. I mean, this is a crazy, crazy, crazy end cat. $857. I'm like, I don't care. Us delivering the highest amount of bad cars we've ever seen. I mean, that isn't a fantastic end. Majority of them are cold. Three quarters of them are cold. I would have taken 200 cold Add to carts and just chucked out the window because Andromeda didn't say a last thing that they ever did ever to the website was there. I don't care. Just like how. I also don't look at the first thing that they ever did ever.
- [23:18]
A
Starve the ponies, feed the stallions is no longer in existence, ladies and gentlemen.
- [23:22]
B
This is no longer in our control now. Only in our understanding.
- [23:26]
A
If you didn't have tier 11 data suite here, though, if you're just looking at. You would have paused it. But your Global NCAC Inside Ads Manager actually looks good. If I recall what the goal is. It's what? It's 279 for that entire ad set.
- [23:42]
B
Yeah, we want to be on i300.
- [23:43]
A
You want to be under 300. So it's good. Technically you would be inclined to pause the $664 one.
- [23:54]
B
Literally everything else looks better but that one.
- [23:55]
A
Yeah. But in the new Andromeda days, even if you don't have tier 11 data suite, tier 11 data suite, obviously you can do either the first click or last click. Everything here is last click. Okay. You've got this queued up for first click. So you know that Click on that $664 spend is actually worthwhile because you can actually physically see it. You can measure it. The NCAC is different inside Data Suite than it is inside Meta. But if you didn't have the luxury of tier 11 data suite, your recommendation would still be like, who cares about what the individual ads are doing as long as the CPA is where you need it to be. If you're going on a CPA model Inside Ads Manager, correct me if I'm wrong.
- [24:34]
B
Right. And that's simply because people believe that everyone, for some reason, I don't understand it. Like it's the biggest cognitive disson that I've ever seen in my entire lifetime. And I don't say that lightly.
- [24:44]
A
Yeah, it is. It's pretty counterintuitive.
- [24:47]
B
Everyone would unanimously agree since the 80s in direct mail. How many times do you need to be engaged with an ad before you convert and then we measure it by nope. Unless it's one, I don't want it.
- [24:59]
A
It's like, no, I want the 1 in 100 that are going to click buy. It's going to be less than 1 in 100.
- [25:04]
B
Really? It's like, so you mean people don't consider their purchases? No one does.
- [25:08]
A
Does. No one does.
- [25:09]
B
Oh, okay, cool. Well, that's not reality. So I guess I'll just do something different. Like that's. That's what's funny is like, people are like, is that ad getting all of my traffic and all the conversions ever in the history of time? If not, I just shut it off. It's like, cool, then close your business. Yeah. So that's.
- [25:22]
A
You might as well just like, forget about advertising. Just in general.
- [25:25]
B
But we. Exactly. I mean, if you think about this way, if you walk into a store and you say, hey, I need some help. I'd like to know where the toilet paper is. And they hold your hand, they bring over to the toilet paper and you're like, wow, I'm gonna buy this toilet paper. But you buy it at the counter. Did the person that helped you find it, were they. Were they useless? No, that's your middle click. That's your add to cart. They didn't buy from the person that showed them the product. Yes. That's not supposed to happen that way. Wait till they go to check if that's.
- [25:48]
A
If you're. You're a person that actually asks for help. I don't ever ask my wife off to no end. She's like, why don't you just ask somebody?
- [25:54]
B
I'm like, no, I'll figure it out. I know I get something on furniture. I'm like, open it up. I'm like, instructions. Okay, don't need those. I'm like, I got spare parts before I started donate, though. That's the first thing that goes.
- [26:04]
A
It's like, either one of us follow instructions. That's why we're entrepreneurs.
- [26:07]
B
Seriously. I know. I'm like, that's your way of doing things. I'm gonna do it better. I figure it out.
- [26:12]
A
Although I did put together a bookcase for my wife like a month ago, and I did that and it turned.
- [26:16]
B
Out it was a total disaster.
- [26:17]
A
I had to go find like, where's those goddamn directions?
- [26:20]
B
I put together a dresser and the right panel was flipped the opposite way so I was in. The holes are on the right side, the hills on the left. I'm like, I know, I'll notice. Oh, my God. I Don't need it's been standing for three years is good enough.
- [26:31]
A
That's good enough. Doesn't fall down, hasn't hurt anybody, hasn't fall when you like any of that.
- [26:36]
B
So. Exactly. And here's the fun part. Remember how I was saying I was scaling up and now what you just saw here in the last 14 days was this visual here going from a $54,000 a week in ad spend to a $66,000 a week in ad spend To $110,000 a week in ad spend. So I gain I added $55,000 in ad spend over the last two weeks. And that's what we saw inside of here. It's like it's, it's the last 14 days. Over 14 days. So I' three points of time. This screen you're comparing four points of time, last two compared to the first two and that's where there's $72,000 added. Now according to this, we're basically just kind of like hovering like it's 230, 279, like it was going up and then it did actually come back down. And that's what you'll see here. Okay, so if I look at these date range going from 55 to 110. What we'll see here is that our NCAC went from 212, it did go up to 270, then fell back down to 243. So I basically pay about $30 more per new customer after doubling my ad spend. And because we're using first click Happy Imports, how much is it costing us? About 48. We're 18 off after a 50G increase. But this is also measuring last 14 days. I was measuring the last three weeks instead of the last four weeks comparative to each other. So it's okay to be 18 off because we know that it went up and then came back down. What you're seeing here is a culmination of it going up and coming back down, just not as much. So it actually evens out perfectly. So am I looking at the ads? Yes, of course. Am I judging one versus the other? That's asinine. That is ignorant. That, that, that my opinion. Just stop media buying because. Yeah, so that's the part. So that's what we're looking at is.
- [28:09]
A
But that's what everybody does, John.
- [28:11]
B
Right, right. And it's almost like if you should do this, like if you just said hey, what did we increase? We increased night we doubled this last two weeks. Cool. What happened? NCAC is still below goal all right, keep going. Thanks, everybody.
- [28:22]
A
Keep going.
- [28:23]
B
That's pretty much it. Like, we're. And cool. There's 72 more new customers now. If I didn't have data suite, I would have killed my middle, which abso have hurt. If I lose 200 new Add to carts a week, I'm totally feeling that now. Could it be picked up by another ad? Perhaps. Could the other ad do better? Perhaps. But you know what this is telling me right here is follow Andromeda, which means is it a winner? Yes, in my book, when I don't measure by just last click cpa. Otherwise my dumbass would be just scaling brand campaigns all the time. Because, hey, it's last click. It looks so great for last click. Yeah, yeah. This is where they ended. Let's just end more. Cool. Should we start more? No, no, don't just kill the starters. Let's just end more there. That's what you're doing. Yeah. So when we look at this, is it a winner? Absolutely. 4,000 add to carts. 200 or 4,000 clicks. 232 add to carts is the biggest add to cart. It's is literally more than a quarter of all of my add to carts. Yeah.
- [29:13]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [29:14]
B
That's.
- [29:14]
A
That's your bottom of funnel ad right there.
- [29:16]
B
That's like kind of middle bottom. That is a winner for sure. You know what we're gonna do? We're gonna create five new versions of these. So normally it's like, oh, that one has a $600 NCAC. Let's pause it. I'm like, I need five more of those.
- [29:27]
A
Those.
- [29:27]
B
That's the difference that we're dealing with now.
- [29:29]
A
It's really a whole new world, isn't it? It is.
- [29:31]
B
It's just like Aladdin said. 1996.
- [29:34]
A
Yeah, exactly. By the way, the graphic that John showed, I did throw in the Facebook, the meta engineering page. Read that one, ladies and gentlemen, see if you understand it. But it basically explains what this whole thing is and, like, very intricate technical knowledge. So we're not making this stuff up. The problem is, is that when Meta rolled this out, they didn't tell anybody how to use it. There was no. There was no instruction manual, so I couldn't be happ.
- [29:59]
B
It's so beautiful.
- [30:00]
A
You wouldn't have read it. You wouldn't have read it.
- [30:02]
B
I know. It's like, hey, we made an update. I'm like, I'll figure it out. Yeah. What's funny is you want to know the funniest thing in the world? And this is Actually true. Let me go back to here. Okay. I have. I have proof. I'm going to go back to this date range here and I'm going to sort.
- [30:17]
A
This is November, I mean, right after.
- [30:20]
B
Like Black Friday Cyber Monday, November 29 to December 2. And if you look at this here, if we look at this date range here of this campaign that started on November 25th, we said, hey, for some reason on first click Cappy Imports. When we just scale up really quickly and we throw all of our bah. And we. Here's the one I was spending 26 grand on. And we go into here and we say, hey, you know, when we use one campaign and we use one ad set and we throw all of our ads in there, this thing actually works really, really well. This is in end of November. And then right afterwards, end of November, December 2, like, no, a month afterwards, it's like, have you seen? And drop it.
- [31:02]
A
I'm like, holy.
- [31:03]
B
So I was on it before it came out.
- [31:05]
A
That's. That's awesome.
- [31:07]
B
So this isn't something that we're like, oh, my God, we're like jumping on the bandwagon. We were doing this before it was even released.
- [31:12]
A
If I recall, the only ads that you were using in this ad account were just ugc. They were just like images of dogs. Correct me if I'm wrong.
- [31:21]
B
Yeah. And I actually had a conversation and you're. You're all going to actually just hop into my. To my email and here we're just going to take it. We're going to take a trip together in my email campaign. So this, honestly, this is there in my email. This was in October 6th. Right. So this is four days ago. And that's what we're saying is here's, here's my explanation of it. And you're not gonna be able to see this, but I'm just gonna kind of read it off to myself for memory.
- [31:44]
A
Yeah, I said John's email.
- [31:46]
B
By the way, reading my email box. I'm like an interesting phenomenon with that creative type. So I do think UGC is the best type of type for us with volume. People love seeing happy dogs. That's very, very common. Like, no one hates to see a dog that was sick coming back to life. Everyone unanimously loves that. People very much get confirmation of their decision and are also introduced to us with the same UGC ad. But I do.
- [32:08]
A
I would hide your email, by the way, unless you want to get del. Used with spam. Oh, it's too late.
- [32:12]
B
Oh, if you, if you. I was Gonna say if you all click on that. John is so late. That thing's dead and gone for like the last six months now. But yeah, so, so, so here's what's funny is I'm like an interesting phenomenon. I do think UGC is the best type. People very much get confirmation of decision and are also introduced to us with the same UGC ad. But I do see better performance of our non UGC ads. They've been consistently 50 to 100 cheaper with NCAC now CPM platform. NCAC, NCAC. Now what I said here is I said I would attribute, no pun intended, this to us introducing the product behind the story. People love dogs. They love dogs coming back from illness and love happy endings. Those are great ads. But I do think we tell the other side of the story. Product highlight ads. So what we're seeing in the data flow is, hey, this dog was sick and now they're brought back to life. The people didn't click it. Don't know why that dog is really happy. So we said, hey, remember that ad that you saw? And you've been seeing a few of them because we have like 25 UGCs running at once. Like this is the product that did it and why. And all of a sudden people are like, oh, okay, bye. Or at least they add the carts. So while it works for us, capture their attention with happy healthy puppies, then introduce the product afterwards that seems to flow well. I could double the ad spend without hurting myself.
- [33:11]
A
That was a real, that was a question I had on another client called this week. They said, well, wait a second, are you guys making ads in this new Andromeda thing without any calls to action? Action, like everything is a website conversion ad technically. And it's all going to have either learn more, shop now, buy now, whatever it is, but in top of funnel ads, like you're not really pushing for conversion or, or are you like, what's the methodology there? Especially when it comes to, you know, the, the visual itself as well as the ad copy that's in the ad.
- [33:39]
B
Yeah, the story does most of the ad copy.
- [33:41]
A
Okay.
- [33:42]
B
So unfortunately it might not be able to. Obviously I can't even see this, but It'll say like 30 days ago I went to a cancer specialist. So it's a story about the dollar dog.
- [33:49]
A
The story. Okay.
- [33:50]
B
And then the call to action is learn more. This restored my dog's health. So it's almost like an advertorial.
- [33:55]
A
So it's not, it's not really like there's no link in the copy that. No call to action in the copy. The copy is just reinforcing sort of the story that they're seeing visually through the ugc.
- [34:05]
B
Yeah, like, we do have, like, heavy.
- [34:07]
A
Oh, you do have it.
- [34:08]
B
Okay. Yeah, we have it. This thing gets no clicks. Okay. This. This gets all the clicks to learn more, but it is something where it's like, this dog was sick and now they're back to health.
- [34:15]
A
Health.
- [34:15]
B
And it's like, cool. If you have a sick dog, you're capturing attention. You may not click, but you're capturing attention, especially if it's around the same illness. So it's ever. Every single. I mean, you were in the space, like, you know, many, many moons ago. It's a healthcare. It's like, do you wake up tired? You're like, oh, my God, yes, I do. It's like introducing sleep.
- [34:32]
A
You're like, whoa, whoa.
- [34:35]
B
Yeah, here's the pain point, unfortunately, the pain point. We address it by telling success stories that had similar pain points in the past, and you may have right now.
- [34:42]
A
Now.
- [34:42]
B
And that's how we're. That's how we're connecting with our market, but we're doing it with. With, you know, dog stories that are coming back to life. They're coming back to health. So what does everyone love? A happy, healthy dog. What does everybody not love? You want to buy immunity pills for your dog? Not really. Yeah. But I will. If you connect those dots for me. I thank you, Andromeda, for sure.
- [34:59]
A
You want the after state. You don't necessarily want the feature. You know, you don't want the product itself. You just want the after state. So that's really what you're talking about here.
- [35:06]
B
Yeah.
- [35:07]
A
Way back when there was a strategy that we deployed. It was like three, four years ago before, obviously, Andromeda and all the stuff that's going on right now as a video view to conversion campaign, which was like, all right, get your ideal audience. Just get them to view a video and then retarget those video views. 3 seconds, 15 seconds, 50%. Whatever it happens to be to conversion campaigns, it never really worked because it was always like the objective was wrong because they were viewing the video, but they had no intent. And even back three, four years ago, when meta was not what it is today with the Andromeda update, it still had very separate types of, you know, individuals within an interest grouping. In this case, obviously, we're now using open targeting, but it's like you're still using website conversion campaigns. You're showing them an ad Similar to how we used to do it with those video view campaigns to conversion campaigns, which never really worked. I don't really know why, but it really was because Meta had identified, oh, these are video watchers, but they're not necessarily converters.
- [36:12]
B
You're part of 2017, 2018. That's when it really started to hit where it's like, I want link clicks. And you're like, you're getting all the clicks. Like, did I get a sale? You're like, ah, didn't ask. No, you got all the clicks. Exactly.
- [36:22]
A
You get all the clickers. Yeah, you know, but yes, it's Advantage plus sales and it's like, sales like, like that is the objective. So even if they're not clicking, there's still potential for them to convert because Meta has data on all of us. They all don't. They know our proclivity to watch click purchase on the platform itself and they understand all that sort of behind it. So that old strategy or like the clicks first, like remember way back when, when Meta first start. Well, Facebook came out with ads in the newsfeed. It was you do clicks campaigns and then you do conversion campaigns.
- [36:57]
B
Warm them up, get them familiar and then try to convert them.
- [36:59]
A
Yeah, we were trying to do all.
- [37:01]
B
Of this to like expand the market.
- [37:04]
A
Yeah, it's like an old school feeder stretch, basically. It was a feeder strategy.
- [37:07]
B
We're not doing anything different here. We're just rolling through the same thing for the last 30 years, just with different mediums.
- [37:14]
A
Yeah, but there's a sales intent with these audiences that you're. Even if you're going open targeting, like you're doing here, I assume there's, there's no targeting, there's just geography, correct.
- [37:23]
B
Yeah, yeah, there's no targeting Inclusion exclusions we gave months ago.
- [37:27]
A
Yeah, targeting. That's crazy. See, who was I talking to this past week? Actually, a woman who's in our space. I was like, how much targeting are you using? Well, she does regional campaigns. She's like, that's the only targeting I'm doing. Like, if I'm trying to fill up, you know, you know, a concert in Denver, I'm just doing like, you know, the Colorado market. That's all, that's all my targeting.
- [37:45]
B
Here's, here's what's fun too is, and I, I don't want anybody to think like, this is like, yeah, right, B.S. that kind of stuff. If we look at this one campaign that we've doubled 93%, you know, 71% more new customers, last 14 days if I go into edit this ad set, I'm still, I can still suggest an audience. My suggestion was like, hey, let's take out the 18 to 24 year olds because if it helps, that's great. Maybe not a lot of 18 year old kids or have dogs who are looking about their immunity. Other than that I'm like, that's so one for sure. I would say I would rather not. If I get it, fine. I still do get 18 to 20 for oil. It happens all the time. It's still 15 of my traffic. Traffic. Would it have been 30? Maybe. But it is trying to snuff it. So that's as far as we've taken our targeting. It was. Please know if you can. Thank you.
- [38:31]
A
That's interesting. I mean, yeah, I think even if you did have just 18 to 65, what is it? 64 plus 65 plus like meta would figure it out eventually.
- [38:39]
B
We've got probably would have gotten clicks, maybe gotten a few sales. Maybe they're more expensive and then it would have just been like as soon as the cost cap hop on there, they're dead and gone anyway. Right. So. Right. And I think that's, that's a really interesting part about this whole thing is that like your creative does the target targeting. Like that's the reason why if you launch multiple campaigns there's massive amount of overlap. If you have the same ad, it just makes. It's the creative doing the targeting, not you. It's actually AI interpreting your ad and then going finding its own audience on its own.
- [39:05]
A
But I have different campaigns.
- [39:07]
B
Does the AI care? No. Does the creative care? No. But my ad set is spending. Does AI care? No. Does the ad care? No. Like that's the thing too is like we can ask it to try to avoid stuff. It wasn't going to be a pass or fail dependent upon it. Like it would be where people like well I'm excluding all of my existing customers. Like that's the wish list.
- [39:24]
A
They're saying thank you very much for showing us who to show it to.
- [39:27]
B
I know that was, that was your, your, that was on your Christmas list this year. But let me tell you something about Santa Claus. It's a little.
- [39:35]
A
All you kids just focus on marketing strategy, not marketing setup. Active campaigns, AI agents orchestrate your marketing for you with intelligent next steps, personalized content on demand and goal aware reporting that tracks every single win. So you can turn your ideas into revenue across email, SMS and WhatsApp without the heavy lifting. Try it for free over@activecampaign.com that's why.
- [40:01]
B
I was like, you know what? Hey, yeah, that's why I was like.
- [40:03]
A
You know, let me tell you, we don't want it to want any kids watching the show anyway. 25 plus, I think, is our audience.
- [40:08]
B
Here on the only suggestion that we had. And once again, it's a suggestion. It's not a law, it's not a rule. It's not an inclusion, it's not an exclusion. It's a suggestion like that tells you how much your targeting is taken seriously. It says, oh, thanks. We'll take it into consideration if you're right.
- [40:22]
A
Have you ever seen a strategy like this or a methodology like this, expand a marketplace? Like, you're in the, you know, for this one. This example that we've used dozens and dozens of times here on the ad lab is in the dog space. I mean, it's like dog owners come in and out because obviously there's dogs are going to be sick and then they're going to get well, and then there's. There's like this constant infusion into the market and rotation in the market. But have you ever seen anything like this, expand a market? Because, like, a couple clients, like the client we were just on, on a call with, he's like, I feel like we've sort of tapped out our market. Right now. They're in the dating niche. It's like, you will never tap out that market. Really? And this allows you? Yeah, I mean, at a certain point, like, you do, you're not scaling, you're not spending a million dollars a day in this market. But I mean, I know in some other markets, markets, you're, you know, doing hundreds of thousands of dollars a day. So where is that? Like, if somebody feels like they have tapped out their market, is Andromeda the solution or is it solution with, you know, a disclaimer there?
- [41:24]
B
Yeah, we. We have that one client that spends a quarter million dollars a day. Yeah, we've. We've kind of tapped out. A lot of people that I've talked to have heard about the brand. Now, have they bought it? Have they tried it? No, they've heard about it. Okay, so at that point in time, it's, well, maybe we didn't hit. Right. Pain point, hook and offer, offer. So if you are like, yeah, it's like, hey, have you heard of, you know, Mountain Dew? You're like, I've heard of it. Like, have you tried Mountain Dew? No. Well, you're still my targeting then. I just haven't convinced you yet.
- [41:48]
A
Right?
- [41:49]
B
So my question is, is, have they tapped out everybody that's looking to date and are on Facebook as an example? The answer might be yes, they have 100 million impressions. And there's approximately maybe 100 million people that could date. Maybe some of them are married, but they still want to date. There's a hundred million people. Okay, cool. Now have you gotten 100, gotten a click from everyone? 1. No, there's still work to be done technically. I mean, you're not talking about exponential growth after that, but 5% of 100 million is still a big leap up. So that's my question. I guess I would say is, unless you say, hey, we've tapped out our market because we've done every ad possible, every hook, every pain point, you know, every offer, every product development. We've even increased our, our, our effectiveness of our product SL service 20x this last two years and still no one cares. Okay, once you can prove that, that then yes, I don't think that that's happened yet because otherwise E Harmony would still be like, ah, I can't get meta to spend.
- [42:40]
A
Yeah, right. But there is probably a top level of spend that you can spend there. Whatever. Whatever it is.
- [42:46]
B
Yeah, you're going to plateau. But you could still. But once you reach that level, a small blip up could still be $5 million net profit that year.
- [42:53]
A
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So it's like I, I do think, I mean, you're answering the question, but which is no market is, you know, know, limitless. However, this is, as far as I have seen, one of the best ways and one of the best methodologies to expand the market and to deliver your brand message to a wider audience and expand your personal tam for your brand.
- [43:16]
B
Yep.
- [43:17]
A
Unlike anything else that I've ever seen in this platform. You know, and it certainly seems like that is the case. I mean, obviously every market has its limits, but in the dating market, they're spending a hundred thousand dollars a month.
- [43:27]
B
Months.
- [43:27]
A
It's like, I know for a fact you could probably spend 5, 10x, that is my guess, in their specific niche. But you have to obviously do the research. But Andromeda's this update has allowed a lot of businesses to be able to expand far beyond they what they thought using more traditional means.
- [43:44]
B
That's for sure. I haven't tapped out of market yet. Like, we're still growing with that company that spends 250k a day. Like it's, it's growth, it's small, it's short, it's growth. But we're Also pretty much just in medicine data. So that's the other part too is like we haven't actually reached into like the tick tock, the I'm not going to go to app 11. That's just apps remarketing. But TikTok and you know Snapchat would be very small tv, you know ctv. We haven't done that yet. Google is still just direct response, non brand standard shopping. It works well. It can scale up programmatic. I mean there's many other channels we can go into. Yes. Now can we use Meta as our creative testing environment for all channels? Absolutely. Now here's the thing that's funny. I was, I was actually gonna mention is Nike makes 4.94 billion annually. There's only $320 million or 320 million humans in the United States as an example. Now I know Nike's global but 320 million humans, they're not all Nike buyers and a lot of them aren't even old enough to wear Nikes. If you think about the kids between the ages of 0 and 5 you take out probably like 30 million, they've been able to extract $15.44 per person alive in the United States every year. Year. So, so it's funny, even if you didn't buy their shoes, if you're like 320 million people all gave them 15 bucks every year, that's their gross profit. So it's, it's massive. Massive. And it's like can you wear shoes? Yes. Well if you're interested in dating, there's probably one third of that. But where's your 2 billion this year? Right. So I would say I don't really see many people that have really saturated a market enough now. Could they scale up a campaign in Meta till it hits a point? Absolutely. But we're talking about everything else in, in history. No, you can, you can still do a lot more but that maybe you just don't want to or that's not the goal of the company. It makes a lot of sense. But I, I have seen it grow an industry. Remember Nito? Yeah, Nido did. Like that's something we still do. We do a lot of marketing for that agency which is super niche. It's a Montessori marketing school. They sign that UP schools, that's 16,000 and it's still growing. But it is expanding the way that schools are thinking about their business. So it is growing a market because right there we didn't really have a bunch of 40, 50 year old female school owners who have Never touched a computer in a marketing sense. We didn't have a lot of those people knocking on our door saying I'd like this, but now we do. So it did grow a market for sure. Yeah, I would say it's absolutely possible now. The other thing I was didn't think about though is you, you made a point earlier where you have, you know, the clicks versus the conversions. I was one of the earlier adopters into saying it looks like Google Ad are moving towards do you want traffic or do you want conversions? Like you can only choose one or the other.
- [46:08]
A
Exactly.
- [46:09]
B
Those are two different profiles on people. People. So can you grow a market if you're only doing converters? No, because they have to say I'm in the market and now I'm in your targeting the non market. Those are things like the feeder strategy to run view content, those feeder campaigns that we run view contents that will grow a market. Now you need both of those to continue to scale because you're feeding yourself your own users. But yes, like if I'm doing a conversion campaign, it's my assumption that Google has people that they have already indicated that they're in the market or would be in the market or taking action for something like this that could be the market market soon. And I'm just, I'm saturating that entire market and so far we're spending like 600 grand a month and we still haven't hit our ceiling yet. So yeah, there's a still pretty, pretty good amount of room to grow.
- [46:47]
A
Have you looked at your reach on those campaigns? Like in the dog space? They're like, yeah, global reach, like unique reach. Oh, I mean, yeah, yeah, reach is sort of relative because like there's people that are coming in and out of that market. Obviously there are dogs that are becoming, getting less sick and more sick as the market expands. So looking at that would be an interesting thing.
- [47:10]
B
Yeah, like this one here is a small company. This is like the Venera one. I was spending about 13k. This is only in Ireland and UK and starting to not hit saturation, but starting to kind of fatigue a bit. We can kind of see that the ads that we started with are scaling up a little bit and spend but we're starting to see like a little bit of a softening lately. So we're going to do a creative iteration. That's the next, next thing. So like it's relative, I think to the location of, of the audience just.
- [47:33]
A
Might mean you need a creative refresh for sure.
- [47:35]
B
I mean like now Creative refresh means like, hey, we burned through all the people that we think need to see this ad and now it's heading on the other side now. Could it expand further? Yeah, absolutely. Did it know it could? Probably not. It needs more data. But when we do the creative refresh. Yes, but we hit 12 million people a month in terms of impressions, reaches 4. 4 million. So, I mean, when you're spending 329,000 and you're getting 1/10. No, sorry, 100th of the population in the United States. States. Not too bad. So there's still some. A lot of room to grow.
- [48:03]
A
There's a lot of room to grow. All right. Hope you enjoyed this week's episode. This is obviously one of the many, many episodes that we've done on the Ad Lab, which we do each Friday, Friday 2:30 Eastern on most days, unless Jod and I have some sort of personal conflict. But we've done 59 shows this and most of it has been on the Meta Andromeda Update.
- [48:25]
B
So.
- [48:26]
A
So for those of you who are just sick and tired of just trying to figure this out on your own, like I mentioned at the start of the show here today we've got a special offer for you which you can head on over to tier11.com apply and get. Today we're only giving away 11 of these and once again, it's by the Creative Diversification Package, the package that we've been talking about here for months and have perfected with the 10 different ad types which we've shown on this show numerous times, but also we've talked about on the Ad Lab live. You get the Creative Diversification package, which is the key to success with Meta Andromeda right now, but you will get your media buying in the tier 11 data suite for free. Yes, it is a buy one, get two free offer. We are only offering this through the end of this year and you get first access to it here at Perpetual Traffic because you've been listening and watching these shows, you understand it. And I know this stuff ain't easy, but our team has perfected it thanks to John's guidance as our chief strategist over at tier 11. So head on over to tier11.com apply, fill in the application, buy the Creative Diversification Package, but get the media buying and the tier 11 data suite absolutely for free. On behalf of my amazing co host, Lauren E. Petrulo and John Moran, thank you so much for listening, everyone. Of course. Leave a rating and review if you like. This podcast here gets us out to a larger, wider audience teaches people how to do this stuff the right way. Through metrics that matter and growth that scales. So until the next show.
- [49:59]
B
See ya.
- [50:01]
A
You've been listening to Perpetual Traffic.