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- [00:00]
A
Hey, real quick, before we dive in, if you've got a brand or marketing tool that marketers need to know about, sponsor the show here at Perpetual Traffic. Perpetual Traffic puts you in front of thousands of seasoned marketers, CMOs and agency owners. So head on over to perpetualtraffic.com to apply to be a sponsor of this show.
- [00:19]
B
If anything, you are so not the customer. You've looked at the website 100,000 times. You built that. You are not the customer. Where do you start? In a project?
- [00:27]
A
Somebody says, I want to increase my conversion rate on my site. We're getting a thousand visits every week. There's a.03 conversion rate. Where do you guys begin?
- [00:35]
B
It always starts with and I've done this from day one. I've never changed this as I always do. You're listening to Perpetual Traffic.
- [00:45]
A
Hey, quick heads up. If you're marketing to marketers, this is where you want to be. Sponsor Perpetual Traffic and get seen and heard by thousands of seasoned marketers, CMOs and agency owners. We get hundreds of thousands in downloads every single month, all to marketers. So go to perpetualtraffic.com to apply for a spot on the show in Q1 or Q2 of 2026. Welcome to the Perpetual Traffic podcast. This is your host, Ralph Burns, founder and CEO of Tier 11 and very excited to have what I consider the best conversion rate optimization dude on planet Earth. Unbelievably great. And to have him here on the show. I don't know why it's taken us two, three years to do this. We've known each other for quite some time, but we have none other than Ned McPherson who, like I said, he's, he's got an interesting story to tell and he does all the CRO here at tier 11 and we're going to do a three part series on how CRO really should work in the AI era, obviously, but also House Croatia is not just design changes and button colors and it's actually data. And Ned, with his background in statistics and one of the smartest guy and fast talking guys I've ever met, is going to discuss exactly how he looks at CRO and give you some tips and pointers and input as a director of marketing, VP of marketing or a CEO to help clients and customers convert better on your site. So welcome to Perpetual Traffic Net.
- [02:20]
B
Awesome, thanks for having me. Yeah, we, we're due for this, right? We've been talking about it for quite some time. I appreciate you giving the warning to folks on my speed talking. That is a real that's right.
- [02:28]
A
A lot of people go like 1.5 on this. You might actually want to go to like 0.75 to get everything that Ned says.
- [02:35]
B
Yeah.
- [02:35]
A
So we've been working together for quite some time now and you actually experienced an exit just recently, which I think is really cool. We may want to tell folks a little bit about that, maybe some of your background.
- [02:45]
B
Yeah, sure. So kind of background, as you had alluded to, just on an education basis, studied, you know, majored in economics and statistics and candidly never thought I would use any of that out into the world as an entrepreneur. Kind of cutting my teeth on a few different businesses and started a few direct to consumer brands in kind of the 2011-2015 timeframe in which at, at times I was leaning a lot on some of our web analytics. Right at the time they were a bit immature compared to what we have now, but was leaning on those to drive the ideation sessions of the business. What we should change, what we should do, how we speak to our consumers. And you know, we were growing those companies nicely. Was working quite well. I was in a CEO networking group and I was just, you know, displaying one of the models that I had built out basically just using web analytics and how that drove some a B testing that we were doing at the time. And I couldn't believe the reaction I got in that group. I mean virtually everyone in that CEO group was like, that's amazing. How do you do that? And I kind of thought everybody was doing this is just Tapestry. But it turns out they weren't. And so I got a ton of interest. People were like, hey, you know, they, they came up on the side and they were like, could you, could you consult for us? Could you help us do this? You know, could you talk to my team? And it was one of those things that like that little side concept ended up turning into its own business and I ended up running with it and in doing so turned that into a single consultancy where I was like the experiment guy that brands would hire over a couple of years. And I had some awesome clients, you know, six, seven clients. But you know, there was a ceiling to that because it was just me. In January 2019 I decided to create an agency. So I founded Endrock Growth and Analytics which was a conversion rate optimization and analytics based web analytics agency. We scaled, we scaled pretty fast. We grew to about 130, 135 folks on the team. And then in the very tail end of 2023 I went through an acquisition and Sold the agency to private equity. Private equity backed strategic. And so yeah, had a nice exit there and kind of, you know, really planted our flag as one of the foremost groups to work with in CRO. We work with one business that's actually was a Fortune 5 multiple actually in the Fortune 5100, quite a few others in Fortune 500 and then up and down the whole spectrum, early stage companies obviously direct to consumer. E commerce is a primary focus, consumer facing mobile web applications, a lot of lead gen businesses, services, professional services, things of that nature. And yeah, just you know, dare I say we found a formula on how to operate in CRO that worked extremely well and we got outsized results for our clients. So I'm going to, you know, talk about that a little bit today as to what some of those results were.
- [05:21]
A
Yeah, and I remember the first time we met and you were, you know, contemplating all of that stuff that you just mentioned and we started working together. I mean I had never seen CRO or conversion rate optimization. If you don't know what CRO is, this might not be your episode, but you probably should be listening because it's everything that's after the click. I mean, and I remember sort of having this light bulb moment. I'm like, I've never seen anybody that looks at analytics the way that you do and you know, at that point in time your team. But it's like if you could combine great media buying and creative before the click and then marry that with everything after the click and all the data analytics. And it's not just redesigning the website because I think this looks pretty. It's all based upon data. And we're going to get into this in our second episode. The thing that I always quote when I talk about you is like Ned can identify the metric that is on fire. Yeah. Which is basically the thing that's burning down your business better than anybody in the space. And it's so cool that we work together now and you assist with all of that stuff after the click because quite honestly, I mean there's a lot of CROs out there, but I don't think there's anybody that does it quite the way that you do it and you see it differently. So let's talk about that. It's an analytics model. It's based upon primarily like one of the things we always talk about here for tracking and for attribution. Google Analytics 4 is not exactly the greatest thing, but once you actually are on the site, that is one of the key tools that you guys Use you might actually be using tools that I'm not even aware of to really figure all this stuff out and sort of figure out, okay, here's the end point, the sale way back here. How do I go back through and sort out where there's drop offs on conversion rate, all the, all the individual parts of that customer journey once you're on the site and you guys do it so well. So let's talk about that and like what the mindset is behind that entire approach.
- [07:23]
B
Yeah, sure. And I appreciate you saying all that. And so starting with, and you kind of alluded to it like what is CRO conversion rate optimization? I mean you're exactly right. It's everything that happens after the click in the industries that we're in. You know, a lot of lead gen again, direct to consumer E commerce. There's a disproportionate focus on optimization for acquisition. Right. Trying to reduce the cost per acquisition CPMs, improving return on ad spend. Well, one of the primary variables to that is how good is your landing event, whether it's a web asset like a website or a mobile application, landing pages, whatever, at converting the user to do the thing that you want them to do. Which of course an E comm would be to complete a transaction, but it also could be submitting a form, booking an appointment, phone calling. I mean whatever the, the metric that we're trying to optimize, the most important metric is, right? And so to the degree in which you can increase the propensity for someone to do that thing has not only obvious benefits of better revenue per user, better margins, but it has this beautiful cyclical halo effect upstream into the acquisition channels. Because again, your return on ad spend gets better, your CPMs get improved, your CPAs go down. So by doing that you can also expect to open the aperture and drive more users in, deploy more dollars more intelligently, and thus grow your business. So it really is kind of like the proverbial tide that lifts all ships. Right. And so obviously you can tell I'm passionate about it now. It's not as easy as it looks. And you alluded to the design point, which is exactly right. What we see, most groups do and I've taken, I don't know, maybe 50% of my clients over the years have basically been working with another CR group and then we're displeased for whatever reason ended up coming to work with us. What I see almost always everyone else in CRO approach a site or a web app is they'll look at your site they'll look at competitors, they'll look at brands that aren't competitive but that are adjacent, you know, maybe tangentially similar and they'll say something like, well look at how they did their navigation, let's try that. And that's an extremely problematic approach. Separate Ray and Pray and Sierra. It really is for, for a myriad of reasons. Right. It's not the least of which it's entirely design centric. It's not empirical in nature. That's a huge problem. Number two, for all you know, that brand's weakest asset is the navigation. You might be replicating the very weak link of their site. And I know that might be a good example. But like I've, I've taken on some of the biggest brands in E commerce, right. I mean brands that if I mentioned to you are, are, you know, ones that you use as like a base case for what to do and you'd be shocked sometimes to see some of the poor conversion events that are going on on the site. So it's like do not think for a second that you're just going to go copy XYZ brand out there and boom, like that. It's going to magically change your site. And what's even more problematic is if you do enough testing using that design centric approach, by the law of numbers, you'll find a win occasionally just by dumb luck and then it reinforces falsely the belief system that you're doing it right. Right. So the way we approach it is entirely from a empirical impression first. So everything starts with our data team. So we'll get access to your analytics, your web analytics. To your point, oftentimes that's Google Analyt. Sometimes we're using, you know, more advanced systems like Cord or Heap or something like that and then we will dive in and what we're trying to understand is where are the brand's index rates, what are the intra funnel rates looking like? As an example, we'll take a mobile user who's a new user, first session and what we're trying to look at is the propensity for someone to move from a landing event into say a product experience, from into a product experience, into an add to cart event, into a cart, to checkout check. It's a transaction. Here's an example of that. If you were to break down the micro intra funnels on checkout, if you were to look at the propensity for someone to add their email, right. Let's assume that's at a 95% rate and then what's the propensity for them to type in their credit card and shipping info? Let's assume you have like an 85% conversion rate, but at the last step where they click that purchase button, let's assume it's 40% almost always. That's a price elasticity problem. That's data telling you that people are getting the proverbial cult feet and they're saying, you know what, actually I shouldn't spend this money. Let me think about it. It's a price justification problem. Now I'm going to flip the narrative on that anecdote. Let's assume that your push to purchase the last step in that checkout is 97% and let's assume 80% of people enter their credit card, but of those who even land on your checkout, only 40% even start put their email in. That's not a price problem, that's an urgency issue. Those are people who get there and they're like, yeah, got no problem with the price. But let's be honest, typing stuff in on checkout, there's friction involved there. I know that's crazy, but like they might be commuting home and like they don't have the time to type something in. How do we create scarcity urgency factors? So point being is I gave you a very simplistic anecdote there as to two data points on the same page that mean completely different things. So it once you start to learn what the data points mean, what it ultimately results in is the experimentation that we run focuses on and you hit the nail on the head. The metric that matters, the metric on fire right now, which isn't like conversion rate, that's too big. It's like mobile new users top DMA cart to checkout rate. Let's focus right there and run repeated experimentation until we move the needle. So a lot of times people will look at us and be like, this group's got great ideas, they have awesome ideation. I'm proud of our ideation. That's not our sweet spot. It's the ability for us to know where to apply that. Ideation is the secret to the whole thing. Right?
- [12:50]
A
It's like data first, design very much second.
- [12:54]
B
Yeah, it's not even like second.
- [12:55]
A
It's probably like, like it's data, data, data, data and then design based upon best practices. But it's the insinuation and it's the interpretation of the data. Hey, real quick, if you're looking to get your brand in front of growth minded marketers, CMOs directors of marketing and agency owners. We're opening up our sponsorship spots for Q1 and Q2. Get in front of a quarter of a million marketers every single month at Perpetual Traffic. All you have to do is head on over to perpetualtraffic.com for the details or check out the link in the show notes to apply. And then what does that mean at that point? Is it price elasticity? Is it urgency? And that's the stuff that I don't think base level CROs really do. And that's the thing that just is like incredible for you guys. And I mean, obviously the more you do it, I mean, you've done what, thousands. I mean, I think I asked you one time, like, how many audits have you done on how many websites? And you said like 3,000. One time.
- [13:54]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [13:55]
A
So after doing that many, you can not only read the tea leaves and read like what the analytics are telling you, but you can also insinuate very clearly, like, what does that actually mean to a user and how should we change that? And it's not a button color. It's like, maybe it is the button color, but that's not the thing that you're looking at. You're trying to find, you're trying to find the reason behind that metric on fire. And how do you change that to change the behavior.
- [14:24]
B
Exactly. Right, exactly. And because, and I'll share another fun anecdote here, because it's data driven. We have no subjective attachment to our ideation. And an example of this is we had worked with a brand and they had already worked with, I think, two CRO groups. No one could move the needle. We took them on and it was a brand in the weight loss space. And they, their site was really ugly. I mean, like really bad. Like, you went to it, it looked like someone from 1999 designed it. It was atrocious. I mean, and it violated flash.
- [14:54]
A
Yeah.
- [14:55]
B
Fundamental principles of CRO. So naturally we started overhauling, experimenting, changing. And we, I mean, we redid and it was like a long form landing page. We redid this thing 11 times, I want to say every time we did it at Lost. So we picked up the phone and we called, I want to say 35, 40 of their customers. Right. And we started to just dig in. Because sometimes the quantitative will point to you where the issues are, but it won't tell you why you need to use qualitative data aggregation, which is a fancy way of saying, like, pick up the phone and talk to customers and figure out what people are thinking. To validate or invalidate a hypothesis. So we did just that. And we were, and we were showing basically our new designs versus the old ones. And we were trying to get to the bottom of this. And we talked to all they mainly their customers were like female, 65 and older. And these sweet little old ladies kept saying the same thing in different ways. They looked at the old site and they said, that one looks like the doctors wrote it. And I literally almost just like threw the book out the window. I was like, you need to tell me worse is better. And that's literally what they were saying is they didn't want this. And again, look at the demographic. It was a 65 and older female target model, right? That they were coming in from varying channels, that they were driving. It was weight loss focus. They actually wanted to read for 30 minutes before converting. They didn't want call to action buttons anywhere but the footer. Like, again, all things that you would normally be like, no, no, no, that'll never work. But we use data to force a hypothesis. And we kept bumping in against, against this wall and the metrics wouldn't permit us to improve. So we got busy on trying to understand it. And then sure enough, we unlocked it. You're never going to get there with a design centric approach. That was a data centric approach that proved it out. Right. So super, super important. Again, that's a dramatic example. But it goes to show you that a lot of times the answers are completely hidden and sometimes they can be contrarian to what you think best practices are. But you need that empirical mindset, that data centric mindset, to even permit yourself to look into those proverbial corners, right, where the answers might be.
- [16:56]
A
That's a great story, actually, because there's obviously an infusion of insight based on previous experience. But just because you have all that experience doesn't necessarily mean that. I mean, you did 11 tests in that case. And it's like the completely counterintuitive. This would never work. This is not industry standard, this is not practice. Like, I've never seen this type of thing before. But it was the qualitative discussions that led to the increase in conversion rate. And I have to assume that because of that, and I've seen this many, many times, that we actually have a client which we should probably actually talk about working with you on. But they actually have all long form. Everything is long form. No call to action until the very bottom. And I always look at that. I'm like, exactly what you're saying. Their demographics is 65 and older.
- [17:48]
B
Yeah.
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A
And they've actually tested that many, many times in a very, very successful business, obviously in the supplement space. But the point is it's like, it's completely counterintuitive to what you would think, think unless you actually had the experience of it.
- [18:00]
B
Exactly. And again, what would a CRO agency that doesn't follow data driven approach, calls
- [18:05]
A
to action above the fold and we need mobile friendly and yeah, they're going
- [18:09]
B
to make you go backwards. Exactly. And so it's one of those things where again, if it's not experimented with properly and it's not coming from that data centric mindset, I mean, dare I say CRO can actually be inhibitive to growth, not necessarily promoting of. And so, you know, again it, it, it, it just, it underlines the point of why proper data analytics and proper data management and predictive modeling using hypothesis based, data based assumptions is the key to the whole thing. Right. And it's a lot of fun too. And this is going to sound very like preachy, but it's also one of those where like there's no such thing as a loss like either. You propose a hypothesis, you test the null verse alternative hypothesis, your alternative wins. Great, we got to win. Let's move on to the next test. But if it loses, it's not really a loss. You just invalidated that alternative hypothesis, which means you more often than not you got close to the answer. It's like the game we played as kids. Like you're warmer, you're warmer, you're warmer and then you just keep testing and then boom, you have a big unlock. Right. So a lot of times, you know, CRO should be looked at as not this like magic wand that comes in and boom, just redesigns the site and you're going to get better conversion rates. The learnings you get from your consumers and a good CRO product program are outrageous and they can drive the life cycle program. Customer service gets a lot of benefit out of it, obviously. Exec and management gets a lot of benefit. Acquisition gets huge benefit from the learnings. So when CRO is done properly, not only yes, is it a tool to drive better revenue per user, but it's also like the tip of the spear for exploratory. Who is our customer? What do they really want? What do they really love about us? That stuff becomes very clear and evident with a good CRO program.
- [19:47]
A
Yeah, whenever I talk to either agency owners or business owners, they're always like, I don't really like my website. I, I Don't like me personally. It's like we're doing a website redo obviously with your guys help. But the point is is nobody really likes their site. But sometimes that's not like that's not the thing you focus on. You're like, oh, your site looks like it was built back in 1999 with Flash and everything else. It's like let's actually get to the data instead of what my opinion is. Yeah, so, so how do you sort of start the process? I mean I mentioned Google Analytics 4 because that's the one that I know we've worked with and I've seen you on. But maybe there's more in depth tools. Like where do you start in a project? Somebody says, yeah, I want to increase my conversion rate on my site. Like right now, you know, we're getting a thousand visits, you know, every week, let's say. But there's a 0.03 conversion rate. Like where do you guys begin? Like what's step one, step two, step three. Hey, real quick before we dive in, if you've got a brand or marketing tool that marketers need to know about, sponsor the show here at Perpetual Traffic. Perpetual Traffic puts you in front of thousands of seasoned marketers, CMOs and agency owners. So head on over to perpetualtraffic.com to apply to be a sponsor of this show.
- [21:00]
B
Yeah, sure. And just before I go on kind of to the first steps to your point on the like, a lot of times you're right. People look at their site or their app and they'll be like, I don't like it anymore. And it's like you've got to remove yourself from the equation and put yourself in the shoes of the new user at any given time. The vast majority of those in your website are brand new. So a lot of times it's like, well we've had that same banner up and it's like, yeah, but it's new to the new user. They've never seen it before.
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A
And it's your opinion and it's not based on any fact. Right.
- [21:26]
B
And you are, you are, if anything you are so not the customer. You've looked at the website a hundred thousand times. You built that you are not the customer. Now sometimes the client or members of the client's team are representative demographically. Right. Consumer archetypically of the consumer. Right. Which is helpful. But at the end of the day, no consumer looks at your site 10,000 times before they convert and knows everything in and out. Right. So you got to always look at it from that perspective. But in any event, back to your question, which is a point though. Where does it start? It always starts with, and I've done this from day one. I've never changed. This is, I always do a complimentary audit, right? And so brands that are interested say, hey, we would like to improve our conversion rate. And a lot of times brands are pleased with their conversion rate, but they still know that there's room for growth. Other brands are red alert, we got to improve this. They'll come to us, etc. You know, as an example, they'll come to you and we'll be like, great, let's dig under the hood. So I usually lead those. I'll do a complimentary audit. They're usually 20 pages or so, where I'll dig in and I'll do a pretty deep dive, right. For me, it's generally kind of cursory, but for most brands, it's actually pretty much a deep dive into their web analytics and to trend and to identify the metrics on fire. And then I'll say, okay, here's what we found compared to all of, say, lead gen out there, compared to all of E Comm out there. Here's where you stack compared to some of your competitors. Because we've got, you know, a ton of data. Here's where you're at. These are the two metrics we've got to focus on. Then I'll give, I don't know, 10, 12, 15 different visual ideas, mainly to show the inquiring client we know what we're talking about, like what the model looks like and that way they can get comfortable. Most brands choose to move forward after we do an audit like that as an example, because we're just, it's just the tip of the iceberg. But in that, to make it easy, we generally are looking at just Google Analytics, mainly because most brands don't have like a very sophisticated analytics architecture built out yet. And so because of that, you know, we, we generally start with ga, but it's, it's a pretty low barrier to entry. Tons of value added. Anybody listening? I'd recommend you take advantage of it. If CRO is, is interesting to you, it's pretty tremendous.
- [23:28]
A
And it's just, it's not only based upon, you know, best practices, but also you bring in like the industry specifically, let's say it's a beauty client of ours. It's like, you'll say, all right, this is what we've done with other ones similar to you. However, this is how you're actually being viewed on this particular page. This is where the metric is on fire. It's the add to cart, it's the product page, it's all of that. But it's all based upon the analytics that you can very easily do through ga, provided GA has set up correctly. In some cases that's not the case. You don't really have a whole lot to go on. But at the very least it's like usually it's the clients are like where do it? Like when do I start? Because it's like you narrow it down to like two or three things. Keep it really simple. Sure. And then after that it's deeper. Dive into more sophisticated tools is my understanding.
- [24:20]
B
Exactly. And like, like you know firsthand with the, you know, the clients we work on together that you know, it's, it's full service. So like you know, we're not saying hey we're consultants. Here's all the things you need to work on. Good luck. You know, we bring the designers, the developers, the data analysts, the strategists, we bring the whole team to the table to execute on those things. Right. And yeah, we've had great returns. You know we hit profitability very fast with clients. We generally are targeting some, some nice ARPU lifts a lot of times. There's also by the way a misconception in CRO that all the big wins you get front loaded like low hanging fruit. I can tell you my single biggest win I've ever had with any client ever in terms of an ARPU lift happened at about the two year mark of working with them there. And that was an average order value test. Wasn't even a conversion rate. They were, they do about I don't know, maybe 70, 80 million on their website and they, we brought their AOV I think from like 94 with one experiment to like 112 which I know sounds like fairy tale stuff but it happened and it's like the mat like think about what that did for the business. I mean unbelievable. Yeah, unbelievable. Unlock right it change but, but point being of that story is like that wasn't like we came in, we're like oh month one. This is obvious. It took a lot of experimenting to get that but like and don't get me wrong, we had wins the whole time getting up there. So we were already way, way profitable. But like the huge unlock right took you know, whatever. And so again you can get big wins early, mid, late, you know it, it really there's no one size fits all there in Terms of the production you're going to see.
- [25:46]
A
I found that working with you is like, it's incremental, like everything is just little. It's not like this huge, like 50% increase all of a sudden, first time, there is going to be some, like you said, there's going to be experiments that fail. I'm air quoting that. But it's a learning that you can then base on the next experiment and all of that sort of starts to add up. But if you look at baseline, where you started and where you ended up, and it might take two, three, four months in some cases, it's not like that's. I think one of the things that's a challenge oftentimes because I've got a professional CRO that's really looking at my site. I've never looked at it this way. I'm going to expect big wins right out of the gate. And that doesn't always happen. It's sort of like the stacking of all the data over time. And that sometimes is a bit of a challenge, especially, you know, with client communications and so forth, like how y' all sort of deal with that.
- [26:42]
B
Yep, yep. So, yes, you're exactly right. I mean, generally speaking, it is incremental. We, we try to identify some. In most cases right out of the gates, we'll see some things that are kind of egregious on the website that are holding you back from conversions. So some cases there's bugs we find that the client's not even aware of that literally inhibit conversion. Other times there's just obvious heuristic things that we've seen a thousand times before that we, like, know is going to work really well. And so we do try to get some good wins out of the gates early. It's very important that we get points on the board in the first, like one to two months to show clients. But really from there, you're absolutely right. It tends to be like incremental growth, growth, growth. And even with the incremental growth, it's like we're finding revenue and channels and threads and corners of the website all the time, all over the place. And so I would make, I would say it's somewhat, maybe reminiscent of like an SEO program where again, it's not like you're going to just flip the switch and overnight be number one on search rankings. Right. It takes time. But you do see incremental growth. It is true, using like the former anecdotes, that occasionally we'll have incremental. Incremental. Incremental than one month we have a huge win, right. And then we go back to incremental. So it's a lot of times it's these big step ups that can happen too. The point is, and I always emphasize to clients is who cares the route that we go to get there, whether it's big win, flat line, big win or if it's stair step or a linear or whatever. The point is, is you should always be saying how are we empirically and method. Method like methodically improving this business based on the shifting landscape beneath us of consumer expenditure tolerances, who our consumer is? Are we opening the aperture and targeting new businesses, I'm sorry, new clients to the company. What's also fun about it is like let's assume in a hypothetical world you perfectly optimize a website, right? Perfect. The second you go explore a new channel, a new demographic, a new geographic, you introduce a new service line, a new product line, the whole thing starts over again. Right. And so, and it's not even just conversion optimization on like first purchase unit economic. A lot of times we're targeting secondary tertiary purchases to be like, hey, first purchase customer conversion rate is dialed in. But we really struggle on secondary tertiary. How do we improve that? Right. So not only is it lateral, but it's vertical too into the like consumer life cycle in terms of where we can find revenue growth for the brand.
- [29:03]
A
So yeah, and those unit economics absolutely affect, and this is one of the beauties of working, you know, alongside you and so many clients is that that unit economic change then fundamentally changes everything on before the click on there, you know, on how we optimize and how we go about our meta ads, Google Ads, programmatic even at that extent. Because all of a sudden if you have a higher AOV or a higher ltv, you can also increase potentially your NCAC to edge out your competitors. So like everything works all the way down. The whole idea is not necessarily just to do tests. To do tests, it's to fundamentally increase and enhance the revenue and the growth of the business. And that does take a stair step approach or sort of incremental approach. But then you mix that with front of the front of the house. It's like it's this great combination of before the click and after the click, which is like that secret sauce I think is just gets both of us pretty excited.
- [30:03]
B
Yeah, you bet. You nailed it. Exactly, exactly.
- [30:06]
A
So this is amazing. I think it's a good introduction for anyone who is contemplating conversion rate optimization on the website, but don't really understand the difference between so many other vendors and like kind of what you and the team here does. We're going to get into two other, I think really solid shows here. We're going to go through a live review, show exactly what you guys do, how you analyze everything. Can't wait for that one. That'll be coming out soon. And then we're going to get in some advanced techniques in the third part of this three part series here. But in the interim, how can people best work with you and tier 11 that.
- [30:42]
B
Yeah, you bet. So, so if the, you know, complimentary audits of interested, I'm happy to take a look under the hood. If there's someone listening who says, hey, take a look at my business, let me know what you find. Almost certainly going to find some interesting revenue boosts for you. So we've got a landing page dedicated specifically for this. So correct me if I'm Wrong, Rob, but tier11.com forward/CRO. If you go there, we'll get that submission and then, yeah, we'll get on a call, start discussing it and then we'll look to do a, a complimentary audit there to try to add some value and ideally we can show you some revenue growth and then potentially work on a CRO program for you.
- [31:15]
A
Yeah, amazing. So like I said, I mean Ned's like a, a unicorn in this space and we've had CROs on this show before, but I don't know why we waited like three years since we've known each other on this. Anyway, he's been out F1 racing apparently, so he's got other things on this.
- [31:31]
B
That's a whole nother toss up other
- [31:33]
A
podcast we're getting to. All right, well head on over to tier11.com forward/CRO. Get your complimentary audit from Ned and the team here and really look forward to doing episodes two and three Here we get even more in detail about all the crazy, amazing stuff you guys do. So thanks for coming on to Perpetual Traffic, Ned.
- [31:56]
B
Looking forward to it. Thanks, Ralph.
- [31:58]
A
All right, well until next show, make sure that you head on over to perpetualtraffic.com and check out all the resources in the show, notes from today's episode. And if you want to watch this over on video, check that out@perpetualtraffic.com YouTube of course, we always appreciate ratings and reviews on Spotify and Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. So really do appreciate that. Helps us get this message out to the right audiences and teach people how to do this stuff. The right way through metrics that matter and growth at scales. So on behalf of Ned McPherson here this week on Perpetual Traffic. Till next show, see ya.
- [32:40]
B
You've been listening to Perpetual Traffic.