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- [00:01]
Ralph Burns
Hey, folks, Ralph here with something that could seriously upgrade your Top of Funnel ad game. If you've been a PT listener for any period of time, you know that we talk about Top of Funnel all the time and how challenging it is for you to get quality Top of Funnel clients or leads or customers and then convert them typically at Bottom of Funnel. Well, TV advertising is one of those areas that we haven't discussed here on PT all that much. But our friends over at Ad Critter have figured this stuff out. They do connected TV ads so you can be everywhere without spending millions on super bowl ads. But they pair it with display retargeting. So you're hitting the audiences with a complete approach. You reach them, then you remind them and then you collect the revenue. It's a strategy designed to deliver and let me tell you, it really works. We're testing this at tier 11 and so far the results have been very impressive. Now with Ad Critter, creating custom audiences are so easy. You don't need to reformat files, you don't need to mess around with complex spreadsheets. You just upload any file in any format and you're ready to go. And the match rate is awesome. They make it easy to connect with the right people, the actual people that have interacted with your ads in the past and then allow them to naturally flow through your funnel so you can convert them at Bottom of funnel. Now, the folks at AdCritter, we twisted their arm to get us a great deal for you, the PT listener. They are offering a special deal for y'all, and that is you can get a $500 campaign credit, meaning $500 in free money to test out the platform or dollar for dollar matching on any TV campaign, up to five grand. Imagine the impact of that match spend five grand. The they'll add another five grand in display. That's a huge opportunity here. Now it's only offered to you, the PT listener. Head over to AdCritter.com PT and check it out. Our friends over at AppSumo started with one simple idea. The tools you need to grow your business shouldn't put you out of business. That's why they work directly with developers to get exclusive discounts of 80 to 90% off off software, saving entrepreneurs like you over half of a billion dollars. Since 2010, some of the biggest names in tech like Mailchimp, Zapier, Dropbox, all got their start on AppSumo with a rotating selection of hundreds of tools, the ones that you're using anyway and probably Paying too much for. You'll find all the software you need to make your life easier in 2025. Plus with a 60 day money back guarantee, you can try any tool risk free. Oh my God, What a deal. AppSumo rarely offers discounts, but they are going to offer a deal here for you. The Perpetual Traffic Listener because prices are already so low, but we got the biggest discount we could possibly get from them anywhere. You get 13% off your first order with the code TRAFFIC13. These guys have been saving entrepreneurs like you and marketing people like you hundreds of millions of dollars since 2010. Don't miss out right now because they don't offer discounts like this. Head on over to AppSum, enter the code TRAFFIC13 and get 13% off your first purchase@appsumo.com hello and welcome to the Perpetual Traffic Podcast. This is your host Ralph Burns. I'm the founder and CEO of Tier 11 and today's show is a really important rebroadcast from our tier 11 lives, which we do every Friday, 2:30pm Eastern. Myself and John Moran usually or other members of our team where we go into case studies, successes and also failures we're having on all the different platforms. And if you've been a follower of the show for any period of time, you know that we have been advocating a strategy called the feeder strategy on Google and on Meta. This is not just a Google strategy, it started off as a Google strategy and it has been absolutely essential in scaling up our e commerce brands. In particular this brand which we're going to talk about here today, which is on the higher end of average order value, anywhere between $100 and $200 AOV on that first transaction. And then there's a recurring revenue model here that works so they can actually spend more to acquire a customer that NCAC number new cost to acquire a customer NCAC very, very important and tier 11 data suite allows us to be able to see this with a great deal deal of clarity. So that's the first part to it. The exciting part to this is what is coming inside of tier 11 data suite. And for all of those of you who sell on Amazon in addition to your own website, you know that when you start spending more on top of funnel awareness type of Traffic on Meta, YouTube, not branded search, not keyword search, those people are intent based but top of funnel they don't know who you are. Maybe they don't even realize that they have a problem quite yet and you're making them aware of a problem as well as a Solution. You know, if we go back to the five levels of awareness with Eugene Schwartz, it's a book we quote all the time here. The point is, is at the top of Funnel, if you're also selling on Amazon, you should see a lift on Amazon when you spend more top of Funnel. It's just the basics of how this whole thing works. Now, in an ideal scenario, you only have a few competitors in the Amazon space. In this case we've got like a handful of competitors, but in a the pet niche, which has very specific applications for a certain type of disease state with dogs in particular. So we all know that this is the case. You spend more on the top of Funnel, you're going to make more on the Amazon side. But how do you actually measure it? Well, one of the most exciting coming features of datasuite is that you will be able to track all of those Amazon sales inside tier 11 data suite. And we're going to show you here today how we've been able to do this with one client using spreadsheets. This is a feature that's actually coming right now. And if you know your numbers and you know what your profit margin is on your Amazon sales as well as your brand sales on your site, this whole strategy is going to kind of bring it all together for you. So this is pretty extensive. We get into the weeds here a fair amount, a lot of screen sharing. So if you're a marketing professional and you have a team, send this to your team as a follow up. This is you actually doing it. It's almost a step by step tutorial on how to do this, but also using outside resources to be able to track Amazon sales, which you now are going to be able to do within the next couple of months inside a tier 11 data suite, which is very, very exciting. So if you are listening to this, we do our best to explain it in an audio format. But I would highly encourage you to watch the YouTube version of this over on our YouTube channel. It's because this is a teaching tutorial here and that of course is over@perpetualtraffic.com YouTube. If you're watching this the first day it comes out, you can also go over to the Tier 11 YouTube and we've left links in the show notes there. So you can go right to the video version of this and just watch it on your phone, Listen to it on your phone, you know, as you're riding a bike or you know, you're on the treadmill, you're on your peloton or you're in the gym or you're walking the dog or whatever it happens to be. So, anyway, head on over to perpetualtraffic.com YouTube to see the video version of this. So, without further ado, pretty excited about this week's episode with myself and John. Take it away, boys. You're listening to Perpetual Traffic. All right.
- [08:00]
John Moran
Hey, we are live.
- [08:03]
Ralph Burns
We are live. Well, welcome to Tier 11 live on Friday. It's good to be back. It feels like I haven't talked to you in forever.
- [08:11]
John Moran
I know. It feels like I'm having withdrawals. So I'm, like, waking up in the middle of night, I'm like, hey, people. No one's there.
- [08:17]
Ralph Burns
No one's there. You even did one on your own, which. When I was, like, flying, I don't know what I was doing. I think I was flying, actually, that day. No, I was on the Runway and you were trying to get in.
- [08:27]
John Moran
I'm like, I'm just messing. Everyone. I'm like, emergency, emergency. I can't log in.
- [08:33]
Ralph Burns
Like, little. Literally, I'm taxing. And the stewardess just kept going by, just like, you need to shut that laptop now. I'm like, well, John Moran needs me. And I was like, I hope it got through. Let's go, let's go. So anything for you, the tier 11 live watcher, viewer, listener. We'll do it here. Even almost getting kicked off a DC10 that day, which would have been very bad because that was the last flight out of San Francisco. So today we're pretty excited about this one. We talked about this yesterday. We were doing an internal training call. I'm like, we gotta do that tomorrow on the Live. Yeah, it was so cool because it's. Well, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna. What is spoil your thunder? What is that expression? Steal your thunder?
- [09:16]
John Moran
Yeah.
- [09:16]
Ralph Burns
How do you steal thunder? I don't know. I don't know. I'm not gonna steal your thunder because I just want you to get into it. But this involves Amazon and spending less and making more, right?
- [09:26]
John Moran
Yep. There's been a. A topic that is almost like when Facebook ads kind of first came out, and it was like, all right, this is really cool and. And sexy, and it works really well. And everything's, like, started to grow, but people are still not fully up to speed on the fakeness of certain areas or the pitfalls. Like, remember Facebook lead ads when it first came out? It's like, you want 1700 pieces of spam immediately for 18 cents.
- [09:48]
Ralph Burns
Look at all these leads.
- [09:49]
John Moran
Everyone's like, whoa, leads, right? So there's really not been that much investigation into Amazon from just the general ecosystem, just a general industry. I guess I would say. Yeah, the people that are usually in charge of Amazon are kind of like siloed and they're definitely in their own, their own realm because it's a full channel and it's complicated and what the hell is ACOS and Asin and blah blah, blah. I've been deep diving into Amazon for like the last year and I've always actually found more of a correlation between your Facebook spend and YouTube spend and Amazon sales than Amazon spend and Amazon sales. And it's always been, you know, you can actually reduce spend on Amazon and increase spend on Facebook and Amazon's revenue goes up. So we had a case study and I actually exported the data suite data for a little bit more of an easier visual for everyone to watch. But in the global, in the global task of decreasing NCAC and increasing MER at scale is it's always important to check each individual channel for in terms of contribution rather than attribution and then test it by making big bold changes. So because otherwise it just gets lost in the ebb and flow of heartbeat that is digital marketing. We have a good week, bad week, good week, back week. But collectively overall, last month we did better than the month before. So it's always lost in, in the shadows, I guess I would say your small changes. So you have to be big, you have to be bold, you have to make really dangerous decisions quickly and then measure fast and appropriately. So I have a case study as to the one of the companies that we are growing and scaling and the actual results of what we saw across the entire time.
- [11:22]
Ralph Burns
So let me just stop you there for one second before you get into it. You said something that was really important there. So this is my job is to interpret John and to do the translation. But you said something which we kind of stumbled on and you said it in passing yesterday and I want to bring it up to our audience here today. It's contribution, not attribution. Explain that to us because it's like everyone's so focused on attribution, but really they all work together. It's contribution at the end of the day. How do you figure that out? Well, you figure that out through what we're going to be talking here today. Obviously tier 11 data suite is a solution. However, just explain that concept to people because I think it's an important one to understand.
- [12:06]
John Moran
Absolutely. So there is a massive amount of brand trust to Amazon People are loyal to Amazon. If you're a prime user right now, watching this here. If you are a prime user, you are loyal to Amazon.
- [12:20]
Ralph Burns
Sure.
- [12:20]
John Moran
This is how it goes. You've signed up for a subscription. Now you're not necessarily loyal to all the products that you buy, but you're loyal to Amazon as to which you buy those products from. So if you said, hey, I want a pair of Nikes, do you go to Amazon or do you go to Nike? Most people are now are just kind of jumping to Amazon first. It becomes kind of like a secondary shopping cart to your business.
- [12:41]
Ralph Burns
Check it out on Nike, see what the price is over on Amazon.
- [12:46]
John Moran
So let's role play. How long does Nike take to ship from their shipping department after you place an order?
- [12:52]
Ralph Burns
Jesus.
- [12:53]
John Moran
I mean definitively.
- [12:55]
Ralph Burns
I would say I think it's like four to six weeks.
- [13:01]
John Moran
Is it that long for Nike? Just order shoes on our website on there.
- [13:05]
Ralph Burns
It's been a while since I've ordered on Nike because I order everything on Amazon.
- [13:08]
John Moran
Well, here, let's just say this. Can you guarantee that it goes out tomorrow? No. Okay, when does that.
- [13:14]
Ralph Burns
I would say within two weeks. I would say probably, yeah.
- [13:18]
John Moran
So we know it doesn't go out same day or tomorrow.
- [13:20]
Ralph Burns
It's not like Teemu, it's like four weeks.
- [13:25]
John Moran
Yeah, put that down. A ship, they manufacture it as soon.
- [13:29]
Ralph Burns
As you order it and then they ship it over. Could be a couple of months, you know, whatever, whatever.
- [13:34]
John Moran
You know, in case there's an iceberg, then it's a year. So if it goes, by the way, the Titanic. So right now it's like, okay, if I order from Nike, when does the ship? Don't know. When does it arrive? Don't know. How do I return? Don't know. Does it. Restocking fee? Don't know. Like you don't know of anything. Amazon's like, it'll get there tomorrow and you can one click and I'll even give you the money back before I even come and pick it up off your doorstep. Cool. That's where people are loyal. They're the Walmart of the Internet. That's Walmart did the distribution first. So people are loyal to Amazon. Now what that does, though, when you're looking at omnichannel attribution, is what is Amazon attributing as sales and versus what is Amazon contributing to for sales? And that's the difference is it's simply the place that people go to buy the product you already spent money educating the person on. Or do people go to Amazon one day and say, I don't know, shoes? Not really. There's no connection to your paid media platforms. So what we looked at when we exported all of our information out of Data Suite into this nice big visual graph with everything here, what we noticed is our spend levels since we started using Data Suite. And I'll just do like the first four weeks. Let's just do on average, the first four weeks we spent an average of 50 or $48,000 per week. So 48,000 per week. Okay. Last four weeks we spent an average of 111,000. So more than a 2x increase in our average weekly spend. Now when we look at our Amazon spend, our Amazon spend went from $3,600 each week on average to $3,800 on Amazon spend each week. So $200 increase in Amazon spend. $200. Now what? Our revenue on Amazon went from an average of $47,000 per week to an average of $75,000 per week. So a 200 per week increase on average somehow gained a $35,000 increase in revenue on average. What is that row as infinite really? It's like spend 200 bucks, get 35 more grand. You're a normal kind of person. Looking at ROI figures says wow scale.
- [15:46]
Ralph Burns
I would say Amazon, your Amazon agency is brilliant.
- [15:49]
John Moran
Whoa. So it'd be really stupid if we just paused Amazon, right? And go from 35 and 4, 500 and spend to 400 bucks. Because it ra a day when we for this week of, of December 29th. So even after Black Friday, after Cyber Monday, week after basically going into into January, and wouldn't you know it that our 36 and $4,400 weekly spend going down to 400 bucks made us $2,000 more. Somehow it went from 74 to 76. Our ad spend cut 90% and our revenue increased by 2. Well, that can't be right because Mer was probably hurt. Right? Well if we were wrong, the MER would be reduced, went from 158 to 160. Well, what about subscribers? MER less subscribers are going to pay you anyway. 126 to 127. All right, well what about cost per acquired first time customer? Well, 166 to 160 went down. There's literally no downside to anything that we've done in terms of top line NCAC media efficiency ratio. No subscribers, Our subscription service, I mean that is probably, I mean, damn, that is the most solid line I've ever seen. Of our new subscribers that didn't get hurt. It didn't go up or down. So we can kind of use our process of elimination by saying do we actually think that Amazon spend was actually doing anything? No. So it's a tributing, not contributing. It's just very, very, very simple. It is a secondary shopping cart to people's websites. Now you're never going to send traffic directly to Amazon. Say man, I hope you learn there. But when you land on Amazon, when you're more closer to the buying decision, you're pushed over the edge. Buy, it's free, I'll get it tomorrow. I know there's one click returns and there's 4,000 five star reviews by now. So that is always where it is going to be. The attributing versus contributing. That is the difference of those factors and that is always what you have to look at in every single channel. Even Amazon, which maybe people on here said, you know what, I never actually thought about that. You can see search terms in Amazon. You can see what people are searching for when they buy your products through Amazon ads. You can see the asin, you can see the search terms. You can see if it's a product search, a brand search or a cold search. That's absolutely there. All this data is readily available right inside the platform. People don't really look at it. People just kind of brush it off as to, okay, Amazon's kind of a cool little black box. And I don't know, but that agency's delivered me, you know, amazing results. Like we didn't even increase our ad spend and they went up 35 grand a week. They're pretty good. No, and that's, that's what we always have to look at is our global metrics or MPIS data suite to show that we've been increasing only on meta and not every other platform. Only I met it. And the only thing really getting better is meta and Amazon. That is a correlated data. That is causation and correlation both in one.
- [18:27]
Ralph Burns
So the devil's advocate here, I mean this is obviously, I mean you still have spend $400 spend, which is on what types of terms? I have to assume it's brand terms.
- [18:38]
John Moran
Yeah, so there was, there was actually really close brand names. So this brand does kind of describe what it is. It is an immune defense for dogs. The first word is critical. So you don't see a lot of critical, but you do see a lot of the company's other brand that is in store. So people go to Amazon and buy it because this brand is also in Target it's also in Walmart, it's also on chewy. Com, it's on their website. So this already has some grassroots branded searches that people are going to do even if they're not even, even if they didn't see an ad on Facebook, they're still going to go to go to Amazon and see if they can get it off of Amazon even on a subscription because it's something that they normally buy, whether in person or they bought it before online.
- [19:19]
Ralph Burns
So same brand sold by two different companies, obviously one of the companies that works with us, but then the other company. So you are getting some bleed over on Amazon probably most likely, no matter what, just the way that it is. Yeah.
- [19:32]
John Moran
And it's actually what's interesting is there is two different brand names. So it's technically there's like Vet Smart and Petwell's Direct. They're the same company, but that product's been under both those brands. So, so you see searches on both those brands because they were on one brand changed over to the other brand, but there's still people from two or three years ago they're still trying to search for. So it's, that's what's really crazy is we can see that the increases on Meta contributed to an increase on Amazon, but this is just identical to Google brand. If you do more grassroots marketing, more omnichannel marketing and more prospecting and push, your brand campaign is going to continuously look better and better and better and better for no additional Aspen. It's like that one case study where I had 50 bucks and made $173,000 on Black Friday. I didn't even need to spend the 50 bucks. I just had to show up for at least once.
- [20:17]
Ralph Burns
Right, right. So on this one, I, I assume like the Google branded search obviously is benefiting from that lift as well. I mean you got to figure, all right, people are then, you know, Google searching that brand. Can we go into or can we look into Data Suite and sort of see the correlation? I'm not sure if these guys have the Amazon integration. They don't as of yet.
- [20:38]
John Moran
Not right now.
- [20:39]
Ralph Burns
Okay.
- [20:40]
John Moran
Yeah, that's why we had to do this kind of manually because we track them separately. But then when we combine them we're like, wait a minute, you can kind of see right there. There's actually no lift for fun. Actually, let me pull this up real quick. Hold on. Because that is actually a fairly interesting point that I have not covered during the same time period. If we just take all the December compared to the time period before of end of October and all of November. So it's basically December 1st. Yes, Jake. Compared to previous period, our spend on brand is actually down $1,200. So we spent $6,100 and then we reduced it 20% down to 4,883. So we took back 1260 in spend and our conversion value went up 55%, went from 14 to 21. So we reduced spend on brand and still got 55% more increase. That sounds really close to the increase between a Amazon revenue of 42,000 and an Amazon revenue of 80,000. What's 50% of 75,000? So this is about an 80% increase on Amazon. So the global lift, we saw 80% more buyers on Amazon than we did of people actually googling the brand name and buying there. We have more redirected traffic from ourselves after prospecting to Amazon than we do to our own website googling our own brand name. Unbelievable.
- [22:01]
Ralph Burns
But you are seeing live. But you are seeing a lift on brand though.
- [22:06]
John Moran
I mean, absolutely seeing a lift on brand. Yeah, the rate of lift on brand is half of the rate of lift on Amazon.
- [22:12]
Ralph Burns
Got it, got it. Makes sense. So like that can. Obviously you're doing that same thing. You're reducing spend over on Amazon to increase overall myrrh. But the same could be said on the branded campaigns on Google potentially as well, because, I mean, they both have sort of the same effect. They're going to buy it no matter what because you got them aware of it over on the meta platform.
- [22:32]
John Moran
Right. And that's why what's funny about this too is if we look here, this is what I love about Data Suite too. If we go into Funnel vision here.
- [22:41]
Ralph Burns
Our beloved Data Suite, for those of you tuning in just for that, we have Romina here just specifically for Data Suite.
- [22:49]
John Moran
Oh yeah, I'm supposed to sing Data Suite where the data is so sweet. There we go. Now it's going to count because I can't sing.
- [22:57]
Ralph Burns
All right, you didn't know that John Moran could sing. So, ladies and gentlemen, John Moran's voice box is going to be one of the new, like, people that are going to come on live.
- [23:07]
John Moran
You didn't think that John Ran can sing and now you know John Ran can't sing.
- [23:12]
Ralph Burns
And we've got MRI proof that you have a voice box. Right. Or was this a CT scan?
- [23:16]
John Moran
Sorry, yeah, potato, potato. I don't know.
- [23:20]
Ralph Burns
So we are inside tier 11 data suite right now. We're looking at all the different platforms, clean, beautiful data Very little on the other side of the equation. Look at that. Look at how few other visits there are way on the bottom. That's the best column for me. The unattributed unknowns, others direct. It's like it's almost completely eliminated here.
- [23:42]
John Moran
So which other is 33? And this is just from the point where we can't tell where these people came from before tracking started.
- [23:48]
Ralph Burns
Yeah.
- [23:49]
John Moran
And that's okay. So here's what's cool. The cost on Meta went up. Cost on Google went down. The clicks on Meta went up. This is actually a lot of video. That's why also the clicks didn't follow this right here. The clicks though, on Google went down. Spent less, Got more. Okay.
- [24:05]
Ralph Burns
Spent less.
- [24:06]
John Moran
New revenue also. New revenue also went up. That's interesting. Like that returning revenue went down. That's okay. We don't have any control over that. But the spend decreasing. New visits went down 40% and now we're down to a blistering 2.3% cold traffic inside of the Google Ads ecosystem. That is ridiculous. Yeah. When you see that much warm traffic at 90 was at 97.7 cold. They're warm. 97.7 warm means that I move here, we get there. Yeah. And that's. Those are all the correlating factors. Same exact thing is happening on Amazon, only worse. Amazon's rocketing to the moon. We keep hitting record weeks every week on Amazon because we're scaling Meta.
- [24:46]
Ralph Burns
Yeah. So just to bottom line this, we have two other customers that have Amazon integrated in. This is a beta for Wicked reports, which we pushed and pushed and pushed for, by the way, as you know, partial owners in the company. The point is, it's like once this client. Have we even said their name, we'll just say pwd, just to network, keep it cool with everyone. The point is that once you have Amazon, you'll be able to see Amazon as a line inside data suite, which is even more beautiful because you don't have create your own spreadsheets to figure all that stuff out. That's the big breakthrough. And you can get breakdowns by each individual channel and you can see exactly what you're talking about. You do it in a spreadsheet here, but you can.
- [25:33]
John Moran
Because I had to add up Amazon. Yeah. Because we didn't have Amazon integrated with. With the Wicked interface. Right, right, right.
- [25:40]
Ralph Burns
But it's coming. I mean, that is very exciting because the idea of like spending less and making more, like. Is that the goal of everyone? Like in life, you know, what comes to Business.
- [25:53]
John Moran
Yeah, it's kind of funny. There's always that like, spend less and make more. Then also like the way people usually have that problem is, okay, how do we just experience exponential scale, like exponential growth for everyone out there that's also been trying the feeder strategy. I have a good proof that actually started on the 9th of. Or, sorry, the 29th of last month. I wanted to share this as a quick case study for everyone too. So everyone out there. This is going to be kind of important. Everyone out there has heard of the term ad fatigue. Facebook coins at fatigue. And we've been discovering with feeder strategy that there really isn't such thing as ad fatigue. It's. It's not ad fatigue, it's audience fatigue. And this is something I want everyone to kind of stop and pause and really reflect on. Because when you remove data and you kind of put yourself back, let's say 200 years ago in. Into just a normal person's brain, that hasn't changed in 200 years. There's never been a point in time where someone walks by like an ad on the wall, like, wow, that's a cool ad. And then they see it like one more time ten days later, like, I hate that ad so much. There's never been that time where it's like a group people walk by that really like it. And then the more people that walk by, everyone just hates it. That's ad fatigue. That doesn't exist. That's not a thing. If it's a good ad, it's a good ad. But it's create. It's audience fatigue. It's because the same 10 people keep walking by that same ad and now they just don't engage with it. So it's, it's really funny. It's tricked an entire industry by saying, oh, that ads fatigue. No ad has not fatigued audience did. Watch this. When you look at what we did with feeder strategy here on the, on the, on the 20, the 29th, what we can see is that this campaign has had the same. The same cost. This campaign has had the same cost. But then we added an l0 reals here, which actually started to drive a whole bunch more clicks. 1.9 million percent more clicks. Because I had like one that went to. Went to 19,000, but we end up spending. We spent 20 GS. Now what's funny about this is when you look at the NCAC, the NCAC is horrible, 542. But then you start to see these things going down by like 9.7% and going down by 2.3%. So what ends up happening is these ads here, these two have not actually changed. If we look at this ad here. Actually, you know what, let's do this for fun. I'm going to pull up the actual ad because I have a pretty unique little use case that we have an ad named Paul. Paul is one of our ads in this, this account. And the ad of Paul has not fatigued and we spent a lot of money on it. So watch this in our. We call them Gluttonous Hero or Gluten zero because they're sticky. Here's Paul. This is Paul again, number copy. If we look, I don't know since like November 1st is. I forget when we started this one campaign, Paul has had $232,000 of ads on, on Paul or $2,032,000amount spent. Paul is not a fantastic, amazing, next best thing ad. It's a dog asleep on a couch. Whoa. What's the ad fatigue of that? Screw yourself. There is no such thing as app fatigue. It's a dog on a couch. It's not even a great ad. But it doesn't stop because we keep feeding it. And that one little, that little ad of Paul, when you view charts, there's the new customers and this is the money that was spent on it. That's not going to fatigue because as soon as it starts to fatigue, we start adding in more traffic. And what ends up happening is we didn't scale one, we didn't scale the other one. We just added reels. What ended up happening, 14% increase in spend, 26% increase in sales, 25% increases in customers, and our NCAC actually dropped another $3. So once it started to plateau, we just fed it more people. Why? Because it's not audience fatigue or not app fatigue, it's audience fatigue. We need more people, we need to feed it. So you measure that new ad and that new video has a shitty ncac. That's okay. It's not supposed to. It's supposed to get eyeballs. Supposed to get users so that my conversion campaigns don't fatigue their audience. They can now get fresh new eyes. And guess what? Paul still works. We're probably gonna spend a million bucks on that one. Little sleepy dog. It doesn't have to be amazing creative, it just has to be creative that works with that audience. So. And then you are just feeding it more and more and more users. You don't just say, oh, that one burnt. Why did it burn? I don't know. People woke up one day and said, I did. I changed my mind. Collectively, everyone happened on Tuesday. No, that's not a thing. It's not possible. So it's really important when we're looking at all of our omnichannel. And then again, as we start adding more users, we see more conversions inside the conversion campaigns. See more conversions, conversion campaigns. Guess what happens to Amazon?
- [30:25]
Ralph Burns
It increases more users.
- [30:27]
John Moran
Exactly, yes.
- [30:29]
Ralph Burns
So really, when it comes back down to it, I mean, the term ad fatigue, which, as long as I've been in digital marketing, that has been a thing, or just advertising, just in general, really is caused by audience fatigue at the end of the day. And I mean that. We used to call it ad blindness or banner blindness back in the day when I would buy, you know, banner ads from actual websites and call them up and like, buy their inventory. Like, hey, you know, you rank for this keyword. I wouldn't tell them that one. Yeah, I was just like, literally. That's literally how I started as an affiliate. I would go and find the terms that I wanted to rank for and go to all the organic listings, all those top websites, and I would call them and buy ad space above the fold. And that's how I became a super affiliate, believe it or not.
- [31:14]
John Moran
Did you have a rotary phone back then?
- [31:15]
Ralph Burns
I did, actually. No. It was one of those ones you pick up and you get like, you tap the thing and you call an operator.
- [31:22]
John Moran
Operator, get me Nikki.
- [31:23]
Ralph Burns
This thing. And then the thing that you pick up. Anyway, the point is, is that that is actually, that's the cause of it. And I think the ad networks, if you really think about this, we talked about this yesterday on our training call. It's like they want to go. They want to put your ad in front of people who are most likely to buy.
- [31:45]
John Moran
Yes.
- [31:46]
Ralph Burns
As many times as possible, until they actually wear them out and then they buy. And at that point, that's when your CPAs, that's when your NCACs start to increase over time. And that's why this strategy is so vital, because it goes out and it finds new audiences with the same ads. Those ads aren't fatigued. The audience themselves are fatigued because the platforms circle the wagon around the warmest traffic, the easiest traffic, whether it's pmax, whether it's Meta, any campaign, any conversion campaign, that's what they do.
- [32:19]
John Moran
Well, it also gets worse because what Meta has baked in is Meta has baked in the fact that when you launch a new campaign, it pushes it to warm traffic first. It does that. It does that. To reward you with, hey, this ad's working. It does it to reward their users. Exactly. There's a different ad about a product you like. Here's the next best thing about this thing that you're semi interested in. So it makes sense because it rewards meta, you believe you're being rewarded because you're maybe a more novice advertiser and you measure by in app roas. So you're like, wow, look at this, this looks great. Everything is predefined to bake in to help meta and their user base. But the advertisers here, the people on this call, all get the short end of the stick. So this was a new product that we launched AP here. So this is a new product that was launched called ap. And when we look inside of if we're not using obviously data suite, we'd have to do nothing but purchases. So we'd have to have website purchases. And the website purchases are like, hey, good job. We end up getting nine for you. AP cost cap manual. I don't know what I did there. Hold on, there we go. Look, we got nine purchases for you. Good. Spent 790, got nine sales. All right, not bad. And that's your AP L1 manual cost cap. And then because we're using the data suite and we are importing, it's like, wait a minute, there's nine purchases in one new customer on a new product that we literally launched three days ago. What the hell? And so we look inside of our Wicked or AP L1 manual cost cap, we can see it's 13.5% cold traffic on a brand new product, on a brand new campaign, on a brand new audience, with everybody excluded. 180 days of website visitors, 180 days of purchasers. People have been engaging with our meta and Instagram posts and ads. Everybody's excluded. This one said, Nope, here's 85% cold, warm traffic. So then when we look inside of here, we're like, what the hell is going on? We actually spent $800 and we got one customer. The other four are view through engagements. So we got view through conversions on a brand new product, on a brand new audience in the first two days. Actually, it all happened in one day. So you know what our what we had to do, we paused it. You can see it's actually shut off. That's why we paused all of our aps here. We then had to go into meta, create a brand new account so that it wouldn't have any of the issues. And now our 800 NCAC is down day one yesterday which we just launched it back down now here again to 294. That's more than a, you know, 100 less it's or 50 less like it's, it's starting to reduce pretty quickly. I don't even check today what's just more curious what did today do? Haven't got anything yet today we can see. But that's what's really interesting is this warm traffic is so ridiculous that you launch new campaign meta's like here's your nine sales. No one one was real and 85% warm traffic. How are you supposed to grow a new product inside the meta ecosystem where they're like oh is that a new ad?
- [35:12]
Ralph Burns
Here's 700 people that you had yesterday for those listeners and watchers here which we are going to get to your questions here in just a moment. But if you don't have tier 11 data suite which allows you or affords you the opportunity to be able to see things in a global basis, would you recommend I think we actually had this conversation like a DM somewhere in Slack. Would you recommend setting your attribution window as far as what you're seeing inside Ads Manager and Meta to one day click only and no view through just to make it like you're through as you say accrual accounting method because that's the harshest way in which to really look at things and then you might be able to get a better idea as to what the platform is actually doing or does that even matter.
- [35:57]
John Moran
So we noticed that in the first three days, even before we got a click, even before we got a purchase, it was hitting warm traffic day one. So I don't know what setting would cause you know, meta to push off into, you know, different traffic because what it would be counting as a conversion. It was counting. It all happened in one day. Like that was what was insane. We launched literally like the next day. All the clicks and all of the returning sales on all the existing customers happened in one day. So we, we had to shut it down on day because day three blew up. Day one and two was like flatline. So that was what was interesting is that you could. Yes. But the flip side of that coin is if you don't have Data suite and you're looking at in app attribution you have to have a benchmark of a one day click accrual that is so high and then hopefully after a week, a month, a quarter that that actually when you're scaling that is actually having a good Effect on your top line? I don't know. The ad spend is way more expensive than just paying for a tool.
- [36:52]
Ralph Burns
I could tell you it's too cumbersome to measure it that way. But no, it's an interesting way looking at it. But at the very least, I mean it's what. What do you recommend for people that don't have data suite in this particular case? Like what's the best way of figuring out how to allocate your ad spend? Or is it just. Is it really. It's just looking at your source of truth and that's pretty much it. Like comparing to your Shopify store versus what you're spending on Meta Google, et cetera. Like what was the method that we used before we actually had this tool?
- [37:26]
John Moran
Well, it was. You know it's funny is I've been using a third party attribution tool for the last three years, almost four years now. And so I don't know of a way to do this without that. That's why I've invested in multiple third party attribution tools. I don't need them to be 100% accurate. I just need them to do a lot of the pre filtering that I know. The individual channels will never even go near. And GA4 kind of sometimes maybe looks a little good. But even that is a even. That's a dumpster fire. I actually posted today in our leadership a wicked versus GA4 for 15 months in a thread and the thread is actually, it's. It's pretty, it's pretty interesting. I'll actually share screen on this thread because this is something that I think is. Is pretty important to see. And GA4 yes they do. They do have data driven attribution. Here's what's funny is this is wicked versus GA4 after 15 months. This is actually called Wicked because before it was data suite back In October of 2023 this is when I actually started tracking. So GA4 says on a 2700 sales, 1400 came from paid and then we got 500 in direct, 212 in organic, 10 in organic social 60 unassigned 175 referral 162 and shopping 28 and cross network 27 in paid search and 2 in paid social. Pretty cool when I've only spent all my money on shopping campaigns. That's the same time period. But then Wicked comes in and says yes, here's your Google Ads, here's all of your revenue given directly to the proper channel. There was nothing else that came in except for A little bit in other 4600 bucks, which we did find was actually organic. But that's what's so funny is GA4 is just like. I don't know. Yes, here's everything that worked. That means that I got 24 out of 14 out of 2700. Basically, I got 50% of the credit from the original source. 50%. Again, it goes to our fun little analogy. Your kid comes home from school with all Cs. They could be all Fs, or they could be all A's. Are you happy? No, they're 50% off.
- [39:17]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, that's pretty much what you just got. You just got a report card from GA4 that says, yeah, you got a C average, but you have no idea what you did on each individual class. You have no idea what you did on each individual channel. It's the same thing. I mean, there's always going to be some direct. In that particular case. In WICKED reports, there is unknown, of course.
- [39:37]
John Moran
There's always going to be.
- [39:38]
Ralph Burns
There's always going to be something. I mean, it's never going to be 100% accurate. Never, ever, ever. But the point is, is you can reduce it, like in one particular case with one customer, we reduced their unattributed unknowns by 90% from 100,000 down to 14,000. Like, you're still going to get some. But that. It's like that 90%, that's. That was almost half of their traffic.
- [40:03]
John Moran
Yeah. It just gets egregious because this is businesses, this is people's livelihoods. This is their dream, this is their baby, this is their bank account. I don't. And pardon my French, I don't have no idea how people wake up one day, look at their savings account, and then the bank's like, hey, this is gonna be 50 off. They're like, I'm good enough. I'm like, oh, my God.
- [40:22]
Ralph Burns
50% of your bank account is like, I don't really know how much you have in savings. 50k. It might be 75k. Don't really know.
- [40:31]
John Moran
Yeah. Would you like your statement? It's only half, right? Keep it.
- [40:34]
Ralph Burns
That's pretty much what the platforms do. That's what GA4 does. And by the way, might as well bash the competition here.
- [40:40]
John Moran
Oops.
- [40:41]
Ralph Burns
Iros and triple Whale do the same damn thing. So there you go. Anyway, let's get over to some questions here.
- [40:48]
John Moran
Yes, I have to show this. Mitch is first the beardpreneur. I'm a very immaculate beard. It's like got a perfect square Shape. It's cool.
- [40:55]
Ralph Burns
He's got the damn good beard.
- [40:57]
John Moran
He does.
- [40:58]
Ralph Burns
Mitch. One of the best beards in the business.
- [41:00]
John Moran
All right, Jose Boogie.
- [41:03]
Ralph Burns
All right, question from Jose V. For a Google shopping campaign on a troas bid strategy, does it enter a learning phase after a significant increase in budget from $5 to $100 a day?
- [41:16]
John Moran
So yes. And what you'll find, it may not even say learning, but when you have a drastic increase in ad spend, what you will see is drastic increase in your cpc. Now, if you're using a low T row, as that's especially going to happen, you do want that though. You want your first click to be very aware and, and very prominent. You know, when you're having your first impression, someone's searching for something, they look up and they see you first. They look and they see you first on the search results on their phone. Being first considered is worth it. So there will be a learning. What that learning will be is that your CPC is going to go up, your spend is going to go up. That's pretty much the only thing that's going to happen. You might get some better search terms that you couldn't enter those ecosystems, those auctions before, because you weren't spending enough CPC because you're. Your ad spend was so low. But you'll see better search terms and higher CPC and higher ranking. And then what it's going to try to do is lower that CPC down a bit to see if it can still get as many conversions as possible with a higher ROAS and a high and lower cpa.
- [42:06]
Ralph Burns
Makes sense. Thank you. Jose V. Stuart Little Digital platforms to market cigarettes in Canada. Any tips on how to avoid policy issues?
- [42:14]
John Moran
Oh, yeah. Call them nicotine free. I'm just kidding.
- [42:20]
Ralph Burns
Call them cancer sticks.
- [42:22]
John Moran
There you go. So the thing that we found in Canada with alcohol and tobacco is you have to exclude everybody from 18 to 24, unfortunately. So Google has a rule where it's like anything basically restricted to 21 year old or less or could be restricted to 21 year old, unless you have to just exclude the 18 and 24. That works. Most of the time it's actually worked where I've excluded it. I got suspended. I appealed by saying, look what I did. And then they reinstated it. So that'd be the, the first thing that I would say really to do.
- [42:48]
Ralph Burns
Very cool. All right, really good question here. Job two, freedom. Hey, appreciate you guys. So with this L1, L2, L3 meta strategy, could you use the exact same strategy but just with YouTube ads?
- [43:00]
John Moran
Yeah. So the L1, 2 and 3 kind of has pushed off into now feeder strategy, which is actually more of like L0, which is what we're kind of calling it a little bit, which is like the traffic campaign. And then you have an L1, which is your prospecting campaign, and then an L3. So it's a little bit different, but about the same. Yes, you can with YouTube ads. Here's the bad part though is only one of your campaigns really has to be conversion based. So your L1 is going to be like a CPM or CPV based and then L2 is going to be re engaging those on a CPM or CPV basis as well. The L3 is going to be a remarketing campaign to everybody that's visited those pages and seen those videos as ads. And that's going to be a conversion campaign. So you can use the same exact strategy on YouTube ads, but your bidding strategies have to be different. Otherwise if you do three YouTube campaigns that are all using a conversion based bidding, whatever has ad spend that day will just scoop up those conversions. And it's like it doesn't really funnel and doesn't work.
- [43:50]
Ralph Burns
Do we have a case study for that?
- [43:53]
John Moran
We do. In a different. In a different mastermind, actually that I'm no longer a part of. So we're having some people shipped over to another mastermind. So I should be able to reconnect with that person. But we had a person that I was working with that he is actually running that and we were kind of going through updates on it.
- [44:07]
Ralph Burns
We got it. Super good question though. All right, Nav Rashid. When optimizing ads in YouTube, you look at percentage served, correct? If there's any minimum benchmark for percentage serve, like if you have three ads, two at 45, 1 to 10%, that.
- [44:21]
John Moran
Would turn one off.
- [44:22]
Ralph Burns
Etc.
- [44:23]
John Moran
Great question. So here's what you want to look at because this actually is a big issue that people, they, they miss a lot. I'm gonna do like 365 days until yesterday. Let me just get this all pumped up here.
- [44:37]
Ralph Burns
All right, Give a shout out for John Moran's disc. Of course these guys get preferential treatment. What are we looking for before John Moran's voice box? Yeah, Kidney. So we can see.
- [44:52]
John Moran
Okay, percentage served. So here's what's interesting is when you look at percentage served, you will have like the Pareto rule. You got 45, got 17, and then you have like seven, three. All these things down to basically zero. So these are like the two ads that are really Doing the majority of the conversions. Now, what you're also going to see is that sometimes the conversions or even the conversion rate is different than the top line. Right now we can see 939 and 188, but it's 45 and 17. So this is actually looking like it's way better. 255, 347. This one goes way down to 757. Here's what you don't want to do though, is let's just say, for example, and I'm using the last year's worth of data. So this thing's been. This thing has been ran a lot and I try to beat it. That's why there's a large discrepancy here between them. Because I pause on our ads in between these things. But what you don't want to say is, okay, that one's bad, that one's good, that one has way more, that one has way less. What you want to look at is actually this over here, the views and the impressions. Because YouTube actually builds a small sequence. So if you were to say, are these 20 million people and these 8 million people overlapping? Absolutely. How about the 3 million and 1 million? Not as much because obviously the percentage served is way low. So these two are your main ads. And lo and behold, if you shut this ad off, that's going to start to go up. So it means if you shut off the ad that has lower impressions and lower quality, your first ad is actually going to perform worse. With the cost per conversion that's starting to increase. Google does a YouTube sequencing. What they identify is Ralph needs to see that video, then that video. John needs to see that video twice, then that video. So they kind of see what videos need to be shown first and second, third and fourth, even if it's the same video in order for them to repeat that sequence when people buy. So they built a little mini funnel and sequencing. But if you come in and say haha, and take half that away, it just falls over. You can't just remove one of the legs. So don't look at it as in just pure results. Look at it also by engagement and know that there's gonna be overlap. But percentage surge will keep the main ones that are overlapping each other well funded. They just may look a little bit different in conversions.
- [46:53]
Ralph Burns
Okay, and the percentage served once again for the first and the second A.D. in that case were what versus the third and the fourth?
- [47:00]
John Moran
Yeah, there were a large discrepancy between them. It was 45 and 17. Okay. And then seven.
- [47:06]
Ralph Burns
Seven. Okay, so Google figured this out. How long did it take to sort of start to figure that sequencing out?
- [47:15]
John Moran
You mean how long does it take to optimize or when did I learn it?
- [47:17]
Ralph Burns
Yeah. No, no, like when you start, like let's say you started, I have to assume you started probably four or five videos at the same time maybe.
- [47:26]
John Moran
Yeah. Usually within a week it'll pick two to five.
- [47:29]
Ralph Burns
It'll start to kind of figure it out. So it's like once you figure out that sequence that they automatically superimpose on your videos, it might take a couple of weeks up for a few months.
- [47:40]
John Moran
Yep. Now check this out.
- [47:41]
Ralph Burns
Okay.
- [47:41]
John Moran
365 days. 45 and 17. This would be something. Oh, let's kill it because this is the main video. Now watch this. What happened last week with the same videos or the other videos? Now it's 41 and 28. It shows different videos.
- [47:54]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, interesting.
- [47:56]
John Moran
So I, I always just give it 15 videos and it'll just kind of pick and choose and recycle. What? This is working because I have years worth of data on all these videos, so I'm not going to pause them. I'll just like Google, pick and decide which ones work well because I'm not Google. I'll give them the tools as to which to succeed, but I won't tell it how to succeed.
- [48:11]
Ralph Burns
That's awesome. I love it. Matthias. Greetings from Brazil. Good to see you. All right. Greetings from. We're popular in Brazil. I like that.
- [48:20]
John Moran
Right?
- [48:21]
Ralph Burns
John Moran's dog. That's right. If an E Commerce client has a limited budget and doesn't want to scale, would you recommend using a feeder strategy and a low T ros standard shopping in this scenario?
- [48:33]
John Moran
Well, it depends. Is there any sort of omnichannel or is it just like Google Ads? If it's a limited budget and doesn't want to scale, I would actually honestly just run feed only pmax. Honestly only because that is also going to keep you the highest amount of positions available. And if you're omnichannel, you don't have the overlap of meta campaigns that are going to skew your results. It is pretty much singularly you. You will do all of your standard shopping and dynamic marketing all in one feed only PMAX campaign and your CPCs and PMAX even on standard shopping, about half the price of an actual standard shopping campaign. So if you're only running one channel, just run a feed only pmax. If you are running Omnichannel, then that's a Way longer conversation. Don't, don't run pmax. It would be more of like a low t roi but then you got to figure out if you're going to get only the first click who's doing the remarketing. And now you got a whole omni channel strategy you got to develop.
- [49:22]
Ralph Burns
Got it. We are getting backed up with questions here. I know a little bit. I'm like, oh my God. Realize there were so many. So we're going to try and rapid fire these as quickly as possible. Do you want to read them or you want me to read them or I'll read them aloud. And whoops, we Both clicked on mat.
- [49:40]
John Moran
All right, John, in your shopping strategy, use two main campaigns. A conversion catch all and a traffic 30 best SKUs both share best sellers of 60% to ROAs y same product to ROS you. Okay, so this one seems like it's more like the dog pile strategy and that one is actually so that I don't limit the best selling performance by choosing an arbitrary budget that's too low. And if it was have still gone through and made more sales, then my secondary catch all would actually make more additional sales, which is my signal to then go increase my first campaign. So that dog pile feeds its way back up. It's like, hey, here's a thousand bucks and 200. Did I spend a thousand and 200 on these products? Yes. Okay, well then here's 1200 and 200. Did it still work? So this basically tells me how much I can scale on this one without missing sales and without with being the first one to say, hey, there's none left over for this campaign. You've reached stasis before I kill myrrh.
- [50:25]
Ralph Burns
Got it. Next.
- [50:27]
John Moran
Oh God, I'm gonna stop touching things.
- [50:36]
Ralph Burns
Like when I'm on the Runway. Like, yeah, I'm, I'm here today, like on an airplane.
- [50:40]
John Moran
It's great. I'm literally sitting on my hands right now. So I don't do it anymore.
- [50:44]
Ralph Burns
All right, I'll, I'll click you talk.
- [50:46]
John Moran
For a new Google account. Is it worth using expanded inventory for the first 10 days and switching standard or would you use a standard inventory for the start? I always use standard inventory. I don't know why I like the expanded inventory is cool, but I found that there's a little bit too much inconsistent consistency with it. Unless it's remarketing. Remarketing expanded inventory all the time. For non brand, I like to use standard. If standard taps out, you can use the expanded inventory. But because it's usually shopping and more individual campaigns that I'm running on. I always just use standard.
- [51:13]
Ralph Burns
Got it. This is new. John Moran sandwich is here. Were you eating when I was away? Was that part of it?
- [51:21]
John Moran
No, actually, that I don't think. I don't remember. I'm a fat kid at heart, so I might have been. So who knows. I even have some soup right here.
- [51:28]
Ralph Burns
That's John Moran soup is going to be the next avatar. I think we answer questions too. All right, he's got a question.
- [51:33]
John Moran
Cool. Java's more efficient for sales and acquisition L1 to 3 on YouTube campaigns or demand gen optimized to mimic YouTube campaigns. So I don't like demand gen yet. I think that their introduction of GSP was a massive failure because you still get charged a CPC where a person opens the Gmail ad and never actually make takes it to your site. So if you're checking cold traffic campaigns launching demand gen is just like haha, you get clicks but no traffic. Now what? Sucker? And so it becomes a little bit of an issue. So I would say that L1 through three YouTube campaigns are still my go to until I'm forced to use demand gen. And then when that happens, stay tuned because we're working on a whole bunch of strategies in the lab right now that are basically mimicking what the L1, 2 and 3 is on YouTube by purposely limiting the demand gen assets inside of those to force them into the channels that we wanted to go go to.
- [52:17]
Ralph Burns
Sounds good. Navrash.
- [52:20]
John Moran
Hey, hey hey hey hey. So now that YouTube is moving to demand gen, is there anything we need to know for businesses who run purely cold in stream YouTube? Yeah. So my opinion, wait for them to push it on you. Honestly, remember what happened when standard shopping turned into smart shopping? I'm sorry? When smart shopping turned into pmax they developed feed only for you which was the best thing because when Google Ads inventory it just tanks. So my go to plan initially is just letting YouTube be pushed into demand gen and hope that they don't add in other assets so I can keep those evergreen campaigns and then try to build off of it from there.
- [52:53]
Ralph Burns
Bob Lee, PPC has a question.
- [52:57]
John Moran
John, how do you view priorities and shopping campaigns? So I actually don't use priorities. It's a very controversial thing. I actually like high priority all the time. I want maximize cpc, maximize placements and maximize priority because Google remember is now not not based on necessarily keyword they're based on. Should I show an ad to Bob when Bob is ready to buy? I don't get to decide when Bob is ready to buy. So I don't know what priority to use. It's not based on search terms anymore. Google is now matching warm traffic inside their standard shopping non brand campaigns to people who are ready most often to purchase at the time that they that Google thinks they're going to be purchasing. I know we have limited time left but this is a really really really important topic because this is going to update everyone's pedigree information about the ads ecosystem and how they work. So for an example in Data suite this is what everyone has to really really really really really understand because most.
- [53:48]
Ralph Burns
People 4 reallys I believe this is.
- [53:50]
John Moran
The most really you'll ever really really. So when you're looking at the non brand standard shopping campaigns or even non brand search, all of these are all basically non brand except for like this branded one here for example. This just as a quick example, look at the cold traffic 22, 28, 24, 19, 15, 26 we don't have a standard shopping campaign or a search campaign that has more than 40 cold traffic. What that means is that standard shopping is targeting warm traffic on purpose. That's how they predict their roas or cpa.
- [54:19]
Ralph Burns
That's the second part of it when.
- [54:21]
John Moran
You'Re using yeah and that's kind of thing when you're using a priority though it's like what step in the journey are they going to search and you have to know that before that happens so you can choose a priority of that person in that point of their journey. It's too much for me to it's impossible to do so if I keep it on high priority and then just go old school Strategies on negative keywords seems to scale 10x way faster than priorities will.
- [54:42]
Ralph Burns
Super interesting. Romina is here to just hear about Data Suite so hopefully she's a satisfied customer here. Appreciate that. John Moran's dog has a question.
- [54:53]
John Moran
Hey, what are three most important metrics for e commerce and running Google Ads and meta if you can choose only 3 NMER LTV NCAC the new so NMER is all the money spent on all campaigns divided by the revenue from new customers. NCAC all money spent on all campaigns divided by only amount of new customers not the value but the amount of customers and then LTV it allows you to identify if I were to spend x amount on getting a new customer, what will that make me? Over 3, 6, 912 months, 2 years then you set those targets. Boom.
- [55:22]
Ralph Burns
That was not a plant question by the way John John Moran's Dog is not a paid sponsor of this show. Thanks, Gary.
- [55:28]
John Moran
I'll pay you later.
- [55:29]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, than Alan J. Is his name Terry?
- [55:33]
John Moran
Actually, I don't know.
- [55:35]
Ralph Burns
Alan J Jr has a question.
- [55:39]
John Moran
In Meta L0 strategy for top performing creatives, you duplicate them 10 to 15 times, increase budgets from pause non performers. Do you just rename the campaign L0 to L1 and create L2 based on it? Not really. So the new L1 strategy is actually when we're doing top performing creatives, we simply just kind of keep re cloning them and then just updating the date. They don't actually move into a different strategy. They just get re cloned when we're doing testing. So it's easier for us to manage when we're what did we try? And what do we not by simply just cloning the campaigns. So L0 never moves into L1 and L2. L1 and L2 are completely different strategies to build off of what L0 is bringing in.
- [56:16]
Ralph Burns
Yeah. Another good question here from Ginger.
- [56:20]
John Moran
What's your favorite cold YouTube ad strategy? So I actually love sequencing. YouTube sequencing is the best thing since sliced bread. And no one really knows or uses it because everyone measures by roas. So when you're looking at a sequencing campaign, those campaigns can be very, very, very lucrative because you can actually find the point of diminishing returns from an audience who is no longer interested in hearing what you have to say so that you can actually contribute to a more of a beneficial result. And what I mean by that is. Here, let me pull this up.
- [56:53]
Ralph Burns
Let's see real quick that audience fatigue are you talking about?
- [56:57]
John Moran
There is no advertise. Yes, it's purely trying to find audience fatigue. So I'm trying to update dates. I forgot the dates that there were actually. You'll share screen. You'll kind of see this. This would be fun. All right, so let's do this one. So this is an ad sequence here. This ad sequence basically will tell me what the user journey is going to do. So I force you to four videos. If you watch this video, if you view it, you look at the second video. If you view that video, you move to the third. If you view that video, you go to the fourth. What happens if you skip the first video? Or let's say you watch the first video, watch the second, then skip the third. So I have skips where I have to push you through the funnel anyway, which is nice because you have to see all four ads no matter which way you go. This is what's cool. If you View this video and then skip number two. I still send you to the number two that you. Or number three, that after you skipped off a number two. And then if I just impress you with that video, then you see number four. So if you skip it, I still force you to watch it. Because my trigger is, did I impress you with it or are you impressed by that video? So the nice part about that is.
- [57:52]
Ralph Burns
Once that impress is after the skip ad goes off. Correct.
- [57:58]
John Moran
So, no, like, I'm going fast because I know we're limited in time. But what this means is that if you watch this video, my step transition is a view. I can say transition to the next sequence off of a skip, a view or an impression. So if you watch this, if you watch all four, you're actually in a different area. If you skip two, I can see this. I'll show you. What I mean by the results, though, is I can see that if you see ad Number one, you have a 32% or 0.32 click through rate.
- [58:25]
Ralph Burns
Rate.
- [58:25]
John Moran
Watch this. Watch. When you skipped one and watch two click, the rate went up. So I showed you an ad. You're like, I don't like you. I was like, all right, well, what about this one? You're like, oh, I like that one better. Yeah, you'll see. You'll see that after you watch ad number one. Or if you skip one and watch two, or if you skip one, watch, watch two and watch three. Or if you skip one, watch two, watch three, watch four. Or you just watch number two. But the farther we go down the sequence, you see the 0305 or 0.32, 0.35, 0.31, 0.32. Then it goes down into 0, 29, 29, 3 and 0.24, 0.25. After about four ads, I pretty much. I fatigued the audience good. But I'm still. I'm still sending you through everything else, but this one here. I can tell a story on CPM with 10 CPMs. Again, I could give a about conversions. It's a TV commercial. There is no click through rate or there is no roas on a Super bowl commercial. That's what we're doing here. We're telling a story. We're building a brand. So that's why I like those things for cold. Traffic.
- [59:16]
Ralph Burns
Traffic. Love it. Okay, all right. Quickly here. I know we're right up against it. Mateus, there's another question, all right, about.
- [59:26]
John Moran
How, for how many days should we move creatives from L0 to L1 again, those are different strategies. The L0, the differences between L1, L0, L1, L2, L3 and even L4 win back, all are different audiences. They're all different. They're the same creative, different audiences. So what's nice is you can move an L0 to an L1, but what you're doing is saying I want to show the people that are getting feeder strategy as an example those videos and then I want to show it to them again. You don't have to. There's no SOP to move that. You just have to have a wide variety of decent creatives because Meta is going to choose anyway which one works. Because unless you're using abo, which I wouldn't recommend in this type of ecosystem today, but you'll have your video creative or ad imagery that's working and then as they go from L0, which is your brand new cold traffic, then L1 is going to try to convert them. So you got cold traffic that's warming up, then you have warm traffic trying to trying to convert and then L3 for remarketing. So it's not about really creative, it's about funneling the users through that path.
- [60:22]
Ralph Burns
Makes sense in der deep, I guess.
- [60:28]
John Moran
Hi John, I've realized a pattern when I work on new account which doesn't have conversion tracking, right, has very low CPCs and as soon as we fix it increases. Why is that? Because Google is backfilling what they know you are willing to pay for those clicks based off of what goals you set. And I leverage that. Want a low T roa roas and you want a low. You know you want a high CPC and low to ROAS. Google's like finally need to make 10 cents my money back. Here's a six dollar bid. My good. I want to be number one anyway, like that's the purpose of it. So as soon as it sees that conversions are coming in, Google's like, oh, you're gonna want to, we're gonna want more conversions. What's your goal? 200. I'm getting 400. Now I gotta charge you twice as much per click and it'll back down to your 200 troas goal. Your T ROAS goal is only applicable to how much you're willing to bid. When Google sees you getting conversions, they will charge you more. That's why we kill conversion tracking some accounts to keep our CPC low at scale. Yeah, makes sense. Cool. Yeah. Yes it is. We confirmed that it is GDPR compliant. Now I am not an attorney, so consult your attorney. Accordingly. But from everything that we know, have been told and can see. Yes. Just don't sue me if I'm wrong. Everything we can find out right now is good. But again, we are not attorneys.
- [61:34]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, we are not attorneys. That would be a very good avatar for YouTube, by the way. John Moran's attorney. God knows we spend enough money on that. Mike has a question.
- [61:43]
John Moran
Hey John, can you break down the feeder strategy? What's the troas for pmax? Do you pick? And in the audience on pmax, I've seen some people use standard shopping max clicks. Yes. So for feeder strategy you want a standard shopping and you want a performance max feed only with overlapping products 100% overlap. So the feeder strategy for standard shopping performance specs. Standard shopping, you want a low to ROAS, 40 to 60%. For your PMAX feed only, you want a high one, 250 to 500% just depending upon when it can spend. You want those too far apart. High T roas and performance max forces your plas into display and means your dynamic remarketing on YouTube. GSP discovered display. You want that to be remarketing with your plas. Your standard shopping needs a low T roas to get a high bid to stick itself into the shopping network. So your T roas is forcing the dictation as to performance max. You don't go into shopping shopping, you get aggressive in shopping. So then you have basically a smart or not smart. You have a aggressive direct response inbound and a smart remarketing campaign. Those two combined. All right, now I gotta go.
- [62:42]
Ralph Burns
Unfortunately we do not have time for all the other questions. Thank you so much. John rand. We look 40 questions.
- [62:47]
John Moran
I'm so sorry everybody.
- [62:48]
Ralph Burns
I know there's like 30 questions we didn't even answer. But make sure you show up next week. 2:30 Friday. Me and John, your next year 11 live. Thanks everybody for showing up here today. We'll see you next week week.
- [62:58]
John Moran
Thanks everyone.
- [63:00]
Ralph Burns
Hope you enjoyed this week's show. We will be rebroadcasting periodically these tier 11 lives. But you don't necessarily have to wait for us to rebroadcast them out. We're really only pulling out the ones that I think are the most relevant to you. The marketing professional, director of marketing and the CEO or if you're doing this stuff day in and day out. We do do the Tier 11 lives every Friday, 2:30pm Eastern. So make sure that you do subscribe to that channel that's over@tier11.com of course subscribe to our YouTube channel here@perpetualtraffic.com YouTube. You knew that already. We did leave all the links we mentioned inside the show notes@perpetualtraffic.com There's a couple of links in there for some of the advertising terms that John mentions that you might need some clarification on. There's not really many resources with that, as well as some links over to Amazon and how to spend less and make more on Amazon, which was the subject of today's show. So. So wherever you listen to podcasts, we would certainly appreciate you leaving a comment or a review. We love those reviews, as well as a rating to help us reach a wider audience. And as always, really appreciate you listening to the show week in and week out. So on behalf of my awesome co host, Lauren E. Petrulo, until next week, see ya. You've been listening to Perpetual Traffic like.