← Perpetual Traffic
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- [00:03]
Ralph Burns
You're listening to Perpetual Traffic. Are you looking for new audiences for your business? Well, Snapchat is full of engaged users you just might be missing. And if it feels like your current audiences on all those other social platforms are tapped out, it might be time to diversify. Over to Snapchat. Here's why. 75% plus of 13 to 34 year olds in over 25 countries use Snapchat. 40% of Snapchatters aren't even on TikTok daily. And it's not just gen zers. In fact, nearly one in four Snapchatters are over the age of 35. And 85% of Snapchatters discover new products and brands through social ads. And that's 17% higher than non users on the platform. This is an untapped platform. I don't know many people who are advertising on it right now. It's still blue ocean for you. Because with Snapchat, you have the potential to reach a hugely untapped audience and drive incremental growth for your business.
- [01:15]
Lauren E. Petrulo
So if your paid ad strategy could.
- [01:16]
Ralph Burns
Use a boost, it might be time to put Snap on your roadmap. Go to snapchat.com perpetualtraffic to learn more. Snapchat is now giving away thousands in free ad credits to new customers. Go to snapchat.com perpetualtraffic to find out if you're eligible.
- [01:34]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Hello and welcome to the Perpetual Traffic podcast. This is your host, Ralph Burns, the founder and CEO of Tier 11, alongside my amazing co host, Lauren E. Petrulo.
- [01:46]
Scott Duh
The founder of Mongoose Media.
- [01:47]
Lauren E. Petrulo
So glad you joined us here today. It feels like we have not done a show together in, I don't know, like a year. I've missed you so.
- [01:55]
Scott Duh
I missed you too.
- [01:58]
Lauren E. Petrulo
And you're not even home yet. You're still like you're on this world tour. How long has it been since you've actually been back in Orlando? It's like three months, right?
- [02:07]
Scott Duh
Yes. I don't. You know what? It's all blur. It's like you have pandemic years are a blur. H1 of 20, 25 is the blur.
- [02:16]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Oh, man, tell me about it. That's right. This past weekend was a blur to me because it felt like 2020 all over again because I caught frigging Covid. Can you believe that? Unbelievable. The only reason I knew it was Covid, because Jen had stockpiled like hundreds of these tests, like for the next pandemic.
- [02:36]
Scott Duh
So hold on. I stockpiled quite a few too, but I was saving them for, like, in 30 years to sell them as, like, Pokemon.
- [02:43]
Unknown Speaker
That's true.
- [02:43]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Remember those pandemic era, right? All the COVID tests? Oh, we still. No, we still have all the, like, the hand sanitizers, the masks. She's like, I'll get you a mask. Yeah.
- [02:55]
Scott Duh
Oh, oh, don't get me started. Hold on. I bought $10,000 worth of medical grade individually wrapped face mask gloves and hand sanitizer. I had it when no one else did. And I was like, I'm ready. And I had a store on Google for an entire, like, two days before they shut down, saying I was taking advantage of the pandemic.
- [03:17]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Anyway, Jen's out today. This is the stuff that people complain about, by the way. Too much rapport building at the beginning of a show. So we're. I know. I missed you, too. And you know you went to Italy. I know I did. And I came back and I caught Covid. I brought Covid with me. So didn't Covid in the US like, come from Venice? That's, like, the first time through. I think it did.
- [03:37]
Scott Duh
I was in Italy at the advent of the pandemic, and I left in February, afraid I wouldn't be allowed entrance to the US and so I left in February and I arrived in the US they didn't even take my temperature. Meanwhile, back in Verbania, near Milan, there was a hospital completely shut down because of how bad the pandemic was.
- [03:58]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Enough with all that. People have already fast forwarded through the show.
- [04:02]
Scott Duh
Well, you know what also is horrible, Ralph? You know what's horrible? The white people don't know how to read data.
- [04:08]
Lauren E. Petrulo
So anyway, today, Scott is back on Perpetual Traffic. Thanks for coming back here today. And you're going to be regaling us with this new methodology that you invented. I think you thought of this either while you were drunk, high, or in the shower. I'm not sure which it was.
- [04:25]
Scott Duh
I thought for sure maybe a combination.
- [04:26]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Of all three or taking a dump. You know, ideas come in all those.
- [04:31]
Scott Duh
Places when you're dumping ideas and dumping goals.
- [04:34]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Dumping ideas, dumping goals, thinking of stuff. And I'm not going to reveal what it is, but it's a new framework for looking at data. And obviously there's going to be a pitch at the end. Pitch alert. Because he's always selling stuff, but he's selling good stuff, so that's why we.
- [04:49]
Ralph Burns
Bring him on the show.
- [04:51]
Lauren E. Petrulo
So tell us a little bit about it. And why did we invite you back yet again to Perpetual Traffic?
- [04:57]
Unknown Speaker
Well, you know, marketing attribution is Always a topic that has so much potential and so much frustration. People, you know, it's all that potential in your data and how are you going to mine and get there? And then with the ad platforms getting more and more black box, measurement's going to become more critical because you're really not going to have, you have less control in the platforms. You need measurement to know whether you should still spend there because they're getting better and better at claiming all the credit in the world. And although they're very valuable to use, they want you to keep spending infinity if you could. And so I was, you know, I was always trying to, I've been doing this forever. I've been trying to predict, using data to predict things since I was literally 13, 40 years ago, 53 now. And I've been doing marketing attribution on and off. It was 14 years. And so I got to the point where I was like, we don't need another frickin report. I was like, how? And so AI came along last year I started thinking, oh, it's going to be great, we'll just throw up the spreadsheet, tell it some stuff and it's going to magically give the answer. And that led me on an odyssey that took about 2, 10, 11 months to build out and battle test this system that I've been kind of consulting with people for a couple years on, but then really refined it so it could run on idle autopilot and then realized I kept, as I was sharing with people, they're like, you know, you really got something here. You should train people on this and share it. So I thought I would do that. That's why I'm here.
- [06:28]
Lauren E. Petrulo
All right, so five forces is what it's called.
- [06:32]
Unknown Speaker
The genesis of it was what attribution model should I use? Everyone asked that every time they're using wicker reports, every time they're talking to at events, every time the topic comes, which attribution model should I use? And then it's like, well, how long should I measure it for? Which trend should I use? Should I not use trends? What columns matter, what data points matter? And I was like, I could create a whole way of doing it. Wick Reports already technically did all that, but I was like, I go, yeah, we've always already done that. But then it takes time. And how do you save time and actually make attribution valuable and a time saver and then combine that with the potential benefits of AI if it has the right training? Because we'll get into that AI is it's like a preschooler running amok. It's not really great with, like staying on the rails with, particularly with attribution, because it's a complicated field. So I got into that and I realized that, you know, okay, rubber meets the road. How am I going to. With the minimal amount of effort from the end user, get them to get the value of attribution. So that's why I set up across. Set about the system and came across there was five key points and therefore the system's called the five forces that are the ones that provide the biggest impact and create a force multiplier in your marketing if applied.
- [07:49]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Right. So the biggest problem that I see with people with attribution software, especially like Wicked Reports or any of the others, won't even mention who they are, is where to look and what to look at and just make sense of all of this in the interface. Wicked Reports has changed dramatically. A buddy of ours texted me the other day. He's like, since when did Wicked Reports get good? Ever since Terra Levin started giving them advice, of course.
- [08:19]
Ralph Burns
But it's true.
- [08:20]
Lauren E. Petrulo
But anyway, so you can go into Google Analytics. You don't know where to look. So what I like about this framework is that it does. It takes you down that path of do this first, second, third, fourth, fifth. Yes. Like, you keep going. But it's a framework in which to interpret what is a very confusing subject here. Like, attribution is confusing and there's so many different factors to it, as, you know, having done this for God knows how many years now. But this framework allows you to be able to make sense of it all, which was the thing that I really liked about it, which, you know, which is the reason why we didn't charge you to come on today's show, because we thought this was more valuable. Yeah.
- [09:03]
Unknown Speaker
Really?
- [09:04]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Yeah. So, like, you charge for shows now anyway, so if you're not watching this on over on our YouTube channel, I would highly recommend that you do so after you listen to the audio, Obviously, over@perpetualtraffic.com YouTube make sure that you subscribe. And I think when you go over there, you don't have a choice anyway. You have to subscribe. I think when you go on that link.
- [09:27]
Scott Duh
Well, that's because that's a hack.
- [09:29]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Yeah, that was an onion garlic thing. So let's get into it. Like I said, if you are not on our YouTube channel, definitely check that this out over@perpetualtraffic.com YouTube so take it away.
- [09:41]
Unknown Speaker
So the vision behind the five forces solving the customer acquisition puzzle with data process and decision science, that was what I set out to do. I mean, we've all been on product demos where people just want to show off all the features and you're like, yeah, just solve my pain point. And that's what we're trying to do with all this data we can show you, oh, look at all these cool data points. But like, who cares? I just want to solve my problem. So what I found that was most beneficial and a system that was repeatable and that would help get the attribution easy button was these five forces. First is the intention. Every campaign should have an intention. What are you trying to do? Then you should have an X. That helps us for measurement and for optimization narrow down all the different things you can focus on, which is important because we're all busy marketers. But also it helps the measurement know which data points to include, which trends matter, which attribution model to set. And that's important. That alone solves a lot. And we'll get into the specifics behind that shortly. Let me just run through the five fours.
- [10:49]
Lauren E. Petrulo
It's here.
- [10:50]
Unknown Speaker
Then. The second is expectations. Because when you hear like you guys are agency owners, you've had this about a hundred times, you start a top of the funnel campaign and then three days in client's like, I don't see any sales or they're in Google Analytics and they're like, it doesn't look like Facebook's making a lot of money. Well, with the expectations you set up, how long you're going to wait based on what you're based on the intention you set, how long you should let the campaign run, where you're going to go to measure it and what you're going to go measure. So the expectations are set up before the campaign's even launched so that you're all on the same page and you have it logged so that when inevitably the person with the budget freaks out and goes against what they said, you at least have it. You've already said, hey, we're following this process and by the way, this is what we agreed to. And then they may still blow it up. But at least you tried, right? So then actions is, you know, actions is twofold. One is just taking the action of launching the campaign based on the attention and expectation. But then when you've run through the whole five forces and you've got to the optimizations and you have a list of things you might end up improving or options, you have to weigh them and then the action is to select which optimization you're going to use to improve the campaign outcomes is the act of the measurement. And then you take that measurement and compare it against the scale chill or kill zone. This is one. I know Ralph likes the scale priority, trademarked it on me. Scale. So the idea with scale Chill Kill is that if you just set a single number as a goal, like I want to acquire new customers at $50, then whenever you take a measurement or an outcome, it's always either above or below that number. And then you have to do some thinking, oh, it's above. Oh, wait, how long has it been above that number now? Is that bad? Oh, do I have to go dig into the campaign now or do I have to go look at my. Who I'm targeting? Do I have to go look at the creatives? Because now it's a couple dollars above $50. Oh, no, wait, I think I can go to 60 until it's a problem. There's all these things that occur when you have a single number or if it's below and you hit like 45, that's great because it's below your target of 50. But then if you get down to 35, like, wow, I'm doing really good. Does that mean you should spend more or not? So the idea with a scale chill and kill zone is you set up the zone. So ahead of time. I used to be a financial trader, and you wanted to not react emotionally as the stock trades, the prices change. You want to have it set up so that you are making changes methodically. And so you set up a zone or a range of values so you already know how you're going to act based on when your key metric comes in. When you measure it as an outcome based on the intention that you set and then optimizations is pretty clear from the name. It's optimizations. But based on the intention you set and based on the outcome that occurs, how close or far you are, what zone you're in, There are different actions to take to optimize, and there are different, like, past performance in the account to look at, such as if you're doing retargeting, you don't want to be looking at all your ads. You should only look at the ads that you did retargeting in the past four for the specific channel you're in. To determine the benchmarks, you have to determine how well you're doing and to determine what you might want to optimize. It's not in a very high level as the five forces I'LL stop there for any questions you might have.
- [14:19]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Okay, so for those of you who are listening or not watching, but I mean, we're just sort of going through a presentation here is like, this is a way of not getting lost in the data and not changing sort of the fields, not changing the goalposts, like how to sort of stick with a plan and move forward on it and using a framework. Because we all know that everyone gets lost in data. And this is like, this is a training that we're going to be taking the tier 11 team through. Because it is this way. Like, does it give you all the answers? No, but it allows you to stay the course and be in an organized way how you think about data, because you can get lost in the data and change the outcome or change the expectations, which we see all the time. All the time, all the time. And then I love the zones on the outcomes. And then obviously the optimizations are where, you know, a lot of the stuff that we talk about in the show, how to actually do that. So maybe let's go through each one of these, maybe in a little bit of a deeper way. Unless you have something specific.
- [15:27]
Unknown Speaker
No. So first there's a whole blueprint. This is the beginning of it. And so if you were launching a campaign, these are the three things we're first going to fill out, which is what's the intention of the campaign? What's the best KPI for that intention? It doesn't mean we won't look at multiple indicators, but you need a North Star, because otherwise you get in there and you're like, oh, the ROAS is here, the CAC is here. Oh, the NCAC is here. Oh, the bounce rate is up on the people clicking to the site. Oh, the AOV is down or up.
- [15:55]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Right.
- [15:55]
Unknown Speaker
How many people are taking the upsell? There's so many ways that you just waste time and so you got to just stick to the North Star. And then you look at the other stuff when you got time. And so here are the intentions.
- [16:07]
Lauren E. Petrulo
What's your goal and what's the most important metric that you exactly like? Your big goal is like your business goal. Okay, it's double the business, go from 5 million to 10 million and, you know, three years or whatever it is. But the way in which to do that is to acquire more customers, for example, at a cost of X. That makes sense. And we've done plenty of shows here about NCAC and how to determine that. We'll leave links in the show notes for that. But it's like deciding on like one metric as your North Star is so vitally important. And it's going to vary by, you know, individual business. It's not always ncac. In a lot of cases it is. But as long as you focus on that thing, you don't get distracted by all the noise that's in there. Like, exactly what you're saying. And this is like one of our media viruses. Like, I remember we first started doing this, we had a couple of media buyers that weren't really that good. This is like 10 years ago. I'm like, hey, what are you doing today? What'd you do today? It's like optimizations. I'm like, well, what are you doing? Optimizations. I'm like, what's the goal of the client? Well, I'm optimizing. Like, what are you optimizing? I mean, we still now it's a lot different, but the point is you get distracted. Like, you're all here, there and everywhere. But there usually is one key metric and we call it an mpi. You call it a KPI here. Whatever it is, that's your North Star.
- [17:23]
Unknown Speaker
And so this is at a specific campaign you would select between one of these intentions. You just select one of them and based on that is the primary KPI, which we're then going to set the zone for, which I'll get to shortly, and then everything flows from there. But it starts with a focus on what am I trying to do with this campaign? Because ideally you have different campaigns with different goals. I mean, everyone knows to say this audience is pretty advanced. Everyone knows you're going to have retargeting. Of course you're gonna have things when you're just trying to get people to buy right away. But I mean, if you're doing cold traffic prospecting, you know, first click attributed Roas is the North Star for that type of campaign. And then acquire new customers, obviously NCAC and then Profit Lab spend roas. So that's where it starts. What am I trying to do? Okay, here's my North Star for that campaign. Next, you mentioned ncac, we're going to set what's called zone scale chill kill zones. Let me go here. First scale increase the budget if that KPI, if you're in the scale zone kill is decrease chill. Chill's underrated. It means you keep the, you keep spending the same amount of money if the KPI is in that zone. Also for you as a busy marketer, it means you can chill out and move on to the next thing because you know this one's going fine. You may want to optimize it and make it go better, but, you know, it's good enough for now if you have, like, 30 other things to do. And I think that's important.
- [18:51]
Lauren E. Petrulo
And then I like that concept the best out of all of these. There's a lot of things that I like about this, but just that alone, it's like everyone has. And I think I started thinking differently about this because we've done so many shows on ncac, and NCAC is a good example. Here is like, an NCAC is a number, when, in fact, it should be a range, really. And if you're shooting for a $50 NCAK and you're getting a 30 scale, that sucker. But if your goal is a 50 and you're at 50, that's probably not a scale zone. That's probably more of a chill zone. But then if it goes to 60 or 70 now, you're in trouble. But having a range in there, maybe it's 45 to 55 is like your chill zone, but your scale zone is 45 to 30 or below, you know, is scale. So, like, I just love that idea. And with the trader background that you have, it totally makes a whole lot of sense. I think it's a new way of thinking about this. And we have a lot of agencies that listen to the show. It's like, they're always held to, like, one number. You should actually be sort of in this zone. We talked about this with our head of traffic, and, like, we opted this since, you know, since you talking about this.
- [20:01]
Scott Duh
So I know for us, we have a rule that we try to establish. Almost every client is like, what is the KPI of which I don't have to ask permission to scale because we're always motivated to scale with permission and performance. It's how we get.
- [20:13]
Unknown Speaker
That's a good way to do it. And then that would be the border for your scale zone. Anything below. And then what's the one where you're, like, nervous? You want to cut the budget if it goes above that 100%?
- [20:22]
Scott Duh
Because we do that to do, like, we'll use rules a lot to make sure that we can have scale situations where if we exceed thresholds, that's what we'll say, a range or a threshold. But I like that you have zones. That makes it even clear. And I'm like, oh, I'm 100% implementing this into our onboarding experience. So because we lock it in, like, we need to make sure if your CAC your customer acquisition cost is $40 as a target. If I get it to you for $28, I can scale without permission. Right. Until we hit. If it's $40 target, we hit $61, then we start descaling back. But I'm gonna scale until 40 and then I'm gonna not descale until like whatever the number is. But like, for that's our threshold. And I'm like, this is so much more visibly clear for the individuals. And having zones articulates your thresholds.
- [21:12]
Unknown Speaker
Yes.
- [21:13]
Scott Duh
Really well. So if you're not watching, I recommend that you head over to YouTube because it's just visually sharing what I have been verbally saying for our clients for years. I'm like, oh man, this is just so much easier and so much clearer. Yes.
- [21:28]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, that's what you're talking about right here. Yeah. The boundary to enter the scale zone.
- [21:31]
Scott Duh
Yeah.
- [21:31]
Unknown Speaker
So that was a good way to state it. And then like, as a trader, you're trying to determine your budget actions before all of a sudden you've launched it. Then you see the number. And if you have just a single number, you then have those convos and then people start poking around on all the other data and like, it just cost you another 20 minutes of your life. You just set it up ahead of time. Then it's kind of more straightforward when.
- [21:54]
Scott Duh
You set up ahead of time. It allows you to spend your time on other things that can help you more strategically optimize the ad accounts.
- [22:01]
Lauren E. Petrulo
To optimize the ad accounts. I also do think this isn't real understanding. You have to have an understanding of this as a business owner. Like, if you're heading up a marketing department and you're listening to this and you don't have these zones, like, these have to come from finance. These have to come from like, all right, 15 is our, like our scale. What is 20? What is 25? You know what I mean? You have to be able to sort of say in different areas of what if we get a 10, you know, for our NCAC. So what are all those scenarios? And what do I, you know, where do I tamp the brakes? Where do I press the gas? And understanding that from a profitability standpoint, which is, like I said, we'll leave links in the show notes for all the shows we've done on ncat because this is so important. And it's, it's usually a wide range. It's depending on like the risk tolerance of the business owner too.
- [22:53]
Scott Duh
I would say yes to finance, but I'd also encourage you to bring in your operations lead. Like I'm especially talking to CPG brands we're recording right now it's June, July, Black Friday. July is when we start Black Friday planning and it's definitely when you start talking to your fulfillment teams if you're ordering product especially if you're doing gift with purchase things of that like that all has to be solidified by supply September at the latest. And so in that like so many companies plan what would happen if they fail but they rarely plan what they do if they scale. So if it's like you need to know what the profitable numbers are but then you also need to know like what does that impact? Because I can't scale in perpetuity if you're not going to be able to have the inventory to supply.
- [23:30]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Right.
- [23:30]
Scott Duh
So there's just things of that communication that allows you to be a better partner to your brand or client when you're like hey we want to scale strategically. We want to scale based off of what finance can agree to but we also want to know at what capacity is the breaking point for fulfilling on the products.
- [23:46]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Right. We also have this thing that's looming out there right now as of this recording. Like we don't know for a lot of the E commerce brands that we serve and all three of us do. It's like what's going to be the impact of tariffs and that's a cogs that I have to assume in most cases is going to be passed along to the consumer and or absorbed by the individual business. So that affects your ncac, that affects all of these numbers here. What are those going to look like based upon different scenarios? You should start thinking about those sorts of things now or diversifying your supply chain. All of these things. Easier said than done of course. Just shift all your manufacturing from China.
- [24:22]
Scott Duh
Well hold on near Shoring has pros and cons. We've had, we had a client and not not the purpose of this conversation. Get deeper into it later of course but it is a very serious talk. I mean Mars the third richest family in the United States just changed their billion dollar media spend to a new agency. Like this is hitting a lot of individuals and the companies and if they're not able to pass the cost difference and that to the consumer they're going to take it into marketing. So if you're in marketing that's like the easiest example of a billion dollar media account being transferred over to a French agency. Sorry, that was my like I can't believe that happened. But of course, because Mars isn't passing their cost to the consumer, but they're also the third richest family in the US and can do that. Not everyone can.
- [25:06]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Hmm, that's true. Well, marketing at the end of the day is a line item on the P and L. That's one of the first things that people do look at and scrutinize. So anyway, back to our regularly scheduled program here.
- [25:17]
Unknown Speaker
Yes.
- [25:17]
Lauren E. Petrulo
With our diversion off tariffs, let's continue on the five forces. Okay, we've got intention.
- [25:23]
Unknown Speaker
We got our attention set up and we got our zone, we got our scale chill kill zone. Now we're going to get into expectations. So you guys might have come across these pains here looking at Google acquisition reports at GA4 and it says we're losing money on Facebook. That happened to a client of mine.
- [25:40]
Lauren E. Petrulo
That was, I've never heard that.
- [25:43]
Unknown Speaker
It was showing they made 16k in the month and they actually made about 130,000 on Facebook. And Google Analytics was saying 16k and he was spending 30, so he spent a grand a day. He's like, gee, should I, should I cut it? And I was like, no, no you shouldn't.
- [25:58]
Scott Duh
No.
- [25:59]
Unknown Speaker
Or Facebook Ad Manager, you know, not seeing top of the Funnel due to its short attribution windows. That's always been the case, you know, and particularly with advantage campaigns. We won't deviate too much down that rat hole, but they're going to be great at bottom of the Funnel. I research on it on the blog, but we don't know about top of the funnel yet. There's ways to maybe hack that we'll see or a dip over the weekend and I think we're time to cut the budget. These are client issues. These are expectation things. Expectation that the ROAS is going to be good every day. Expectation that Facebook Ad Manager was going to report top of the funnel campaigns.
- [26:35]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Well.
- [26:35]
Unknown Speaker
So if your intention is cold traffic, you don't want people look that you don't want your client or boss if you're at the brand basing it on Facebook Ad Manager necessarily, particularly when you first start it because it may not report as well as you hope. And these are all lack of alignment or agreement around the measurement source of truth, what attribution model to use, the measurement time frame and then the KPI to look at. These are all things that five Forces handles in the expectation phase. And we do that by mapping first of all the specific intentions to the specific model. So we don't need to go into all of these. But a common one, cold Traffic prospecting. You should use first click because you're trying to find cold traffic. So you need to see what the first click was from the cold traffic. Now if you're in looking at Google Analytics 4 or if you're in looking at, let's say Google Ads Manager reports, they don't use first click. So they're not going to report fairly. They're not going to give the scoreboard. It's like you're the defensive coach and you're coaching the basketball team and you went in and saw how many points were scored in the game. We scored 130 points. Well, that doesn't tell you how good the defense did. It's not the way to keep score of the defense. How many points were allowed? And that's what happens is people have an intention which therefore sets a score. It should have a scoreboard of first click. But then they look at systems that are using different scoreboards and therefore they get confused quickly.
- [28:11]
Ralph Burns
Hey, you know, when I was first a consultant actually doing the stuff that we're doing right now in Tier 11, one of the first tools that I learned how to use was from a company called Unbounce. And they are now a sponsor of perpetual traffic. And the reason is, is that their landing pages and how quickly you can create those landing pages without having to consult your designer, your developer. With drag and drop builders now built in AI copywriting, it's even better than when it was 10 years ago when I first started using on my own to create my very first landing pages. These guys are absolutely amazing. They've got conversion optimized templates giving you everything you need to launch your pages on your own without developers. In fact, Unbounce is the leading landing page platform for building, testing and optimizing high converting pages. Powered by data from over 2 billion conversions. That is 2 billion conversions with a B. That means they know what converts.
- [29:09]
Lauren E. Petrulo
So if you want to convert more.
- [29:10]
Ralph Burns
Customers one platform and launch pages fast, Unbounce is offering PT listeners a special offer. They are giving you the PT listeners 10% off when you enter coupon code PT10OFF over at unbounce.com forward/pt so head on over to unbounce.com PT, enter code PT10OFF and cash in. Today convert more customers with one platform, launch pages fast.
- [29:41]
Lauren E. Petrulo
You shouldn't have to wait for your.
- [29:42]
Ralph Burns
Designers and developers to build and test your landing pages. Get started with Unbounce today.
- [29:47]
Scott Duh
Fair. I like remember sitting next to someone at a baseball game once and they had their own private sheet and they were marking like where, what basis someone had made. And I was like, what scoreboard are you keeping track of? And I remember just like, oh, I'm out. Baseball has too much math.
- [30:04]
Lauren E. Petrulo
A lot of people do that, by the way.
- [30:07]
Unknown Speaker
And then additionally, yeah, score. It's called keeping book. I mean, people in at Fenway park keep book a lot.
- [30:15]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Keep. I thought it was keeping score.
- [30:16]
Unknown Speaker
Oh, no, I thought I was keeping the book. I don't know, maybe that's the name.
- [30:19]
Lauren E. Petrulo
You're from Maine.
- [30:20]
Scott Duh
The only thing I kept score was body count. So this baseball numbers things was not. I was like, well, yeah.
- [30:29]
Unknown Speaker
Oh my God.
- [30:30]
Lauren E. Petrulo
All right.
- [30:33]
Unknown Speaker
So then also the intention sets the measurement period. And this is important that when you're launching these campaigns, you communicate the measurement period right up front based on what they're trying to accomplish.
- [30:45]
Scott Duh
This is so big because I mean, like going into the Facebook ad rabbit hole a little bit, like you can change what you're optimizing for and then your attribution window is what you're getting credit in app. But then there's a lot of times where this discussion and like we have clients that will have like moving goalposts. Right. Where the expectations change. Even though we have agreements, if we're not looking at a specific measurement period. That's fair. Like Facebook has that 28 day attribution window attentive. Look, your default is 28 days for an SMS, that should be two hours, two days max. But if you don't have the type of, I argue two to four hours, I'll give you two days max for SMS attribution. But attentive default is 28 and the only way you can reduce that default is by having an account manager go in on the back end. I disagree with that completely. But the purpose of the matter is like if you don't have agreement on what the measurement period is, you're not going to allow email to take the proper credit for that. That life cycle marketing, it changes the scope and math is manipulative. And this is where I've seen a lot of marketers when we go into accounts and we'll do audits or we're doing consulting where this just gets completely blown out of proportion. So I'm glad that this is set up in the intention style here.
- [31:55]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, and additionally, you might make these bigger even because when we first bet, when we baited this out, like some people would be like, wait a minute, I got a 90 day cycle because I'm selling, you know, 10 grand H vacs to install or whatever.
- [32:08]
Lauren E. Petrulo
That was my point. It's like, I think this is a good benchmark here, but it's going to vary based upon your business, correct?
- [32:14]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [32:14]
Lauren E. Petrulo
I won't get all into it because.
- [32:15]
Unknown Speaker
The whole advanced piece where we get into when you want to tweak it based on your customer cycle. 100%.
- [32:21]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Yeah. A bit of a pitch for Wicked reports on this and tier 11 data suite is that you can actually see what that first click to purchase typically is based on platform too. So you'll have an idea as to what it is.
- [32:32]
Unknown Speaker
Yes.
- [32:33]
Lauren E. Petrulo
It might not be 30 days is what you're saying here. It might be less, might be more, depending on what the, you know, the product is.
- [32:39]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. This is just a benchmark for start points.
- [32:42]
Scott Duh
Is there like a sales funnel that's involved into it? Like, if it's a high ticket item, you have to have that increasing. Like, we constantly hear about how webinars have nearly doubled the time it takes time.
- [32:52]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Time is a factor, like to. To your point, like, it's a factor that so many people forget about when it comes to this.
- [33:00]
Unknown Speaker
Yes.
- [33:00]
Scott Duh
Yeah.
- [33:01]
Lauren E. Petrulo
It's just so true. It's like, well, you know, my campaign went to shit this weekend. It's like, well, okay, how long is your sales cycle? Like, how long does it take? Yeah, somebody. You may get a lot of clickers on the weekend, but then they might buy next Wednesday.
- [33:13]
Scott Duh
And then there's certain factors to time, right? Oh, is it fourth of July? It's Father's Day weekend. And like, things that come into play, like, was there an, like, chatgpt was down the other day. So could that have those things? There are always external factors, but time and budget are things to me at least, that most people neglect in understanding.
- [33:31]
Lauren E. Petrulo
And there's weird stuff. There's like, you know, when the California fires took place, like, we have a lot of clients that are California. Like, California is a huge area for purchasing for a lot of our clients. So we saw a dip in performance in our ad account that weekend of the LA fires. Like, there's weird stuff like that that happens all the time. But the point is, is like if you have sort of a North Star, you understand sort of what your measurement period is. Those kinds of things you can sort of take is like with a grain of salt, exceptions. Not the rules as exceptions and not the rule. But still, there's a lot of things that play into here. And it's not always inside the platform either. Because remember, the max Inside meta is 28 days. After 28 days you're done well, really.
- [34:13]
Scott Duh
7 days, you can do further extensions and just to see it. But at the end of the day your, your attribution that you're optimizing for is going to be seven. But you have. The numbers will always change. But what I'm saying here is it always comes back to intention which is at the beginning of Scott's force. Like how are you going to push forward? Are you going to force the best opportunity for you to do well, set yourself up for success. Why and what are you doing this for?
- [34:39]
Lauren E. Petrulo
100%.
- [34:40]
Unknown Speaker
Exactly. Couldn't have said that better. That was perfect. Lauren. So this is, covers the expectations and then I was going to go.
- [34:48]
Lauren E. Petrulo
You get a gold star, Lauren Petrulo.
- [34:50]
Unknown Speaker
She does. And then when we come to action, let's go to action now. Now with action, the key piece is what's called the decision log. I'll show one already filled out. Because the idea is that you want to keep track of what you've decided to do or not to do based on what the data is telling you. Because sometimes the data will be screaming at you to do something, but there'll be a reason you don't want to for sure.
- [35:17]
Scott Duh
But you have a contractual agreement with the affiliate that you're going to spend X amount of money on Any ads that have have their face in it.
- [35:23]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. Or so then. Or you've got a gut, sometimes you got a gut feel, sometimes you just want to test something out. And so you want to log when you make a decision. Because also going back to those times, if you made a decision and cut the budget in half or doubled the budget, that resets the measurement time. Now it's not always going to go well in with people, but if you've suddenly doubled your budget because you were in the scale zone the very next day, if you have like a two week sales cycle the very next day, the numbers don't look good for that one day. So you need to be on the same page with them. Like hey, the measurement period for this intention is 14, let's say 14 days. And I just doubled the budget because we're killing it. So we have to wait another 14 days before we're going to knee jerk and pull the budget back. We got to let the ad platform digest the additional spend and make sure it can find new customers at the same rate. And so you log the decision and then you log when the next remeasurement date is so that you have that also as your evidence trail to prevent the client or the boss from ruining your best intentions because otherwise people will. Yo, yo. Oh, we scaled it. Oh, no, it just tanked. Well, no, it's only been three days. Yeah. Your sales cycle is 14. So you log these things with a remeasurement date. You say, hey, I'm scaling. Here's what I'm going to remeasure. The system wants to like reinforce good behavior.
- [36:44]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Yeah. And hygiene and not eliminating knee jerk reactions.
- [36:49]
Unknown Speaker
Yes.
- [36:50]
Scott Duh
Shiny object syndrome is so real and we're reactive all the time. And it's like I saw this TikTok video that said if I just launched this one campaign or if I do this Taylor ad campaign into Amazon and shut all of my working campaigns, it'll automatically work. You're like, hold on, there's missing context, please.
- [37:09]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Yes, but this forces you. Well, the five forces of not doing that.
- [37:16]
Unknown Speaker
Or you can log it and say so and so had a great idea from TikTok. And then, boy, will they look embarrassed. And maybe hopefully be quiet.
- [37:25]
Scott Duh
Is there a way to like call the backlog and just be like, oh, okay, I love you, business owner. I love you.
- [37:32]
Unknown Speaker
Well, I think maybe when they see it in, it's clear in black and white. Maybe that'll hit home, maybe it won't.
- [37:37]
Scott Duh
But I mean, for the most part at least, like we have found that that's happening less and less. But definitely closer to the pandemic when everyone was working at home for the first time, when people were like upskilling themselves, I found a lot more people jumping in, want to help. The intention is always to be helpful. Right. Like they're like, oh, I bet this can work. And it's without this type of communication. Having that notes allows people to see the bigger picture. And I think that's so important. Like when, at least for us, we have an agency, so we have the client success manager, the strategist, project manager. There's a lot of moving pieces, plus the media buyers, plus, you know, the creative service department, that someone can make a decision without understanding the ramifications of everything else. And then if you log it, you can know and go back if it didn't work or equally if it did work, you can give credit and you can amplify more of what's working because you can find the source that allowed that change to scale you stronger.
- [38:29]
Unknown Speaker
Amen. Exactly.
- [38:31]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Absolutely.
- [38:32]
Unknown Speaker
So moving on, I know we're getting short on time here. So for outcome, that's when we're going to take the measurement of once the measurement period is done and put it on the scale Chill kill zone. Now we need entry criteria. We have to have set an intention. We have to have selected the zones, we have to have agreed on the expectations and the measurement period has elapsed.
- [38:53]
Scott Duh
If you're not watching this by the way, I'm just gonna go back to the people that are listening. Love you listening. But like these are great slides and this feels like I'm playing a video game. Like congratulations, you unlock this. You unlock this. Unlock this. Now you can get your secret star.
- [39:06]
Unknown Speaker
I was trying to gamify it, so thank you. Gamified with like superheroes. So each intention has a different like superhero. Yeah, this is a shiro. So let's say in this one I've done the end. I go in and measure the end cac here on this one. And it's not good, you know, it's 183. So I plot it and then we look my scale zone my for cost the KPI up. Obviously the more you pay, the worse the kill zones at the top and then roas the kill zone be in the bottom. So 183 is dramatically into the kill zone for this particular person. So for those of you just listening this one, the boundary between the chill and the kill zone is $70 and it's 183 bucks for the NCAC. So that means we got a deal. That means. Okay, we have to go Optimist.
- [39:50]
Lauren E. Petrulo
You're off the reservation right now.
- [39:51]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, we're going to go optimize.
- [39:53]
Lauren E. Petrulo
I just got fired.
- [39:54]
Scott Duh
You're off the chart.
- [39:55]
Unknown Speaker
You're probably in trouble, but you can at least go try some strategic optimization.
- [39:59]
Scott Duh
Or something could have broken. Hold on. That happens a lot. Something can break and where you're like oh my gosh, all of our plugins didn't get updated Yesterday because of WordPress or someone cleared. They republished a past version that happened yesterday.
- [40:16]
Unknown Speaker
The cappy. Turns out the zap got turned off and the cappy didn't get.
- [40:20]
Scott Duh
Yeah, exactly.
- [40:22]
Lauren E. Petrulo
My event match disappears.
- [40:23]
Unknown Speaker
Event match quality crashed. Yeah, someone spent all the money on brand. Some new been messed up a setting and we spent it all on brand. How dare they all those things. So it's not just. It could have been a number of things or it could have been you were killing it and then you just tried to triple the ad spend and you fished out all the ad sets and they only were good enough when you were had smaller budgets and you were spending more than what the ad set common.
- [40:47]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Actually very common.
- [40:49]
Unknown Speaker
So then we go to optimization. There's Three areas that we're looking at, excuse me, five areas. Traffic, budget allocation, creative and offer, product and customer quality. All the different metrics in those areas. We have different metrics and things we look at in these areas to either tell you, hey, you got a traffic problem, or it's the product you're offering because it's new customers and you're offering a product that they don't like. Or it could be creative and offer, which could be a lot of things. Or the customer quality, it might be. Well, yeah, you're bringing in volume, but the AOV is way down because no one's taking the upsell. You're getting way more cheap traffic because the people are cheaper when they go to check out.
- [41:25]
Scott Duh
Pause and like, what's the difference for you between traffic and customer quality on this?
- [41:29]
Unknown Speaker
Sure, the traffic would be the. For example, if you are trying to get new customers but you're not buying and getting enough new. New visits. So you're actually getting a lot of volume. Repeat customers.
- [41:41]
Scott Duh
Yeah.
- [41:41]
Unknown Speaker
So you see a lot of repeat customers. You're like, well, I'm buying. The traffic's supposed to be for new customers, but I'm getting a ton of repeat. Something's off. Maybe Advantage plus audience is expanded and has turned into a retargeting campaign as often. So I thought I was buying new customers.
- [41:58]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Yeah, right.
- [41:59]
Unknown Speaker
So that would be a case of traffic, you wanted new and you're getting warm or you're getting repeat. It'd be a very common one. And then customer quality would be a lot around aov. Or it could be conversion rate. Conversion rate could also be creative and offer. The offer is not good enough. It's not creating height.
- [42:14]
Scott Duh
So they're all intermingled in some way or shape or form. Because this is a marketing campaign. But just here are the five places of which Ralph's earlier media buyer that's optimizing is focusing on.
- [42:25]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Correct. Okay, yeah.
- [42:27]
Unknown Speaker
So example, he has trapped. But it's giving you focus because it could be like as an advanced media buyer, you say, hey, I have a traffic issue. I got more repeat than new. And then you've got options. You can go deal with it however you're going to deal with it. But if your intention was new customers and your North Star's ncac, but you're spending half your budget on repeat, well, you got to work twice as hard on the traffic that is coming in to get.
- [42:50]
Scott Duh
Yeah.
- [42:51]
Unknown Speaker
So it might not be like the campaigns because then you'll think, oh, I had all these great creative Ideas. I can't believe they're not working. I got to think of new ones. No, you just were showing it to the wrong audience. It was all the people that have already seen that stuff and bought and now they're getting numb to it. So that's why your North Star metric isn't working out of ncac, because it's repeat people coming in. So that's how we try to like help support what you're doing with data in that way. So there's a couple others I know we're coming up on time here. Next one would be budget allocation. Do I need to scale, chill or kill? Common things are top of funnel, cold traffic, budget being spent on retargeting or your meta campaign just optimizing and saying this ad sets, you know, it makes decisions fast. This ad's killing it. So it just spends or it's converting better and it spends all the money on one ad or one ad set. And so what happens there is then you might have had other great ideas that again the AI decided not to use or meta's algorithm may not be AI, maybe you know, just machine learning. So in that case, that's a budget issue of hey, this ad didn't really get any budget. It might actually still work. You just need to try it on a different campaign. Search campaigns. A lot of times we see that, you know, profitable keywords aren't getting enough budget even though they have more impression share available. That's like you have a, you have a burger restaurant and you have starving customers walking by, but you shut your door on every other customer. You just, you put the close sign up and then the open sign up. The next time it'd be like they're starving and they want food and you have these warm burgers hot off the grill. Or in your case, veggie burgers. Ralph.
- [44:26]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Tasty veggie burgers, bean burger. Right.
- [44:30]
Unknown Speaker
But the point being these things can happen where when you give stuff up to the machine, the data can point out where the machines made a mistake because they're not foolproof. And then there's different ways to deal with that. You might just have to break out the things that are getting ignored and put them in their own campaigns. But you probably had a lot of good ideas in the ads or the ad sets or you have some keywords that are actually already making money and they're just not getting budget. There's ways to that. Then as a media bar, you can go in and fix that. That's what the five forces walks through that process of saying, oh, this thing should be scaling, why isn't it? Oh look, Google's AI has decided not to do it. So I got to go fix it myself.
- [45:08]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Right, right. So these are all prompts to go in and obviously take action and optimize in essence in each individual area. Like there's a lot of. Some of these are combinations of all four or five together as opposed to just one.
- [45:23]
Unknown Speaker
But yeah, because then you go through like these strategic checks here. So then creative an offer, I mean a big one is conversion rate but also bounce rate, click through rate and then this I like the segmentation of conversion rate between new verse returning. I don't think it gets enough focus.
- [45:42]
Scott Duh
From people that for sure across all areas of marketing. Like people just treat everyone as equals. Where it's if someone's returning and are they returning because they previously bought from you, are they returning because they've never bought from you? There's a different hierarchy and who is the quality of that traffic like you said earlier, like the quality of your visitor. That's huge. And it drives different types of marketing like a small thing for us. We know that retargeting with statics right now is what's working the best because we don't have to pitch completely to new to returning people. They already saw the initial pitch. So you can have that type of offer and optimization in the creative. That's how we have found it to be true. But this goes into a layer deeper is what you're saying.
- [46:23]
Unknown Speaker
And then the customer quality AOV versus what your benchmarks are, particularly again with new versus historical new and then because repeat AOVs and obviously repeat LTV is higher because they're repeat customer. But AOV I find across the board is usually higher from a repeat customer. So but if you're not doing that in your benchmarking and you're thinking, oh my AOV is normally 200 bucks, so I just need to convert people at 100 and I'm going to make 100 bucks. And then lo and behold you're only making 140 as your AOV. Well it could be. Then you go back, oh shoot, I was including all these like customers I've had for 10 years. Well you shouldn't. You've got to use new versus historical. So there's a focus there on the customer quality and digging into that because that can ransack a lot of otherwise good looking metrics like your AOVs down.
- [47:15]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Or it could be like just marketing qualified leads versus sales qualified leads. Like all of that I mean people who don't book calls, like we're just talking e commerce here, but I mean from the info and digital world, like there's other types of metrics when you're talking about quality.
- [47:30]
Unknown Speaker
Yes.
- [47:30]
Lauren E. Petrulo
I mean, and that's usually sales qualified lead versus marketing qualified lead. Did they actually book a call? Did they meet with the team and they say, okay, they are qualified. They have all the, the things that we need. They've got the net worth, they've got whatever your criteria is. Like that's a huge part to this as well, which is obviously going to affect your bottom line.
- [47:50]
Unknown Speaker
And then product, product for new. You know, often you might be leading with a, you know, you're just throwing up a shopping campaign and they're taking in your whole feed of 2000 products and trying to find the winner. I know Andromeda says it's always going to be able to do that. We'll see some cases it will. But you probably have historical data and you may be leading with one campaign, one product you really hope to sell. But it turns out new customers don't like that. It just has a lot of sales on repeat or vice versa. And so segmenting the behavior of what your your best current customers did to make them first become customers and using that data. So there's some focus there because the conversion rate first of all by product on new verse returning will be different along with the SKU AOV will obviously be different based on, you know, if you're charging different amounts. But I just find that can be a symptom if you're trying to optimize to go in and look at after segmenting new versus repeat. What SKUs have worked in the past on new on turning people from cold traffic to new is pretty informative because it could be that they're just not getting shown the product that in your history has converted them best. It's been if you throw it up to the machine. And so then from an advantage plus world focus, you just build the campaign around that one product because then it's easier. You just do the creative for that one product, the hooks around that one and focus on all cold traffic there because that's what's worked best in the past. Past tends to repeat itself.
- [49:20]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Makes sense.
- [49:21]
Unknown Speaker
And so that is kind of the five forces. I have a whole blueprint that you would then follow around it.
- [49:30]
Lauren E. Petrulo
So intention, expectation, action, outcome optimization. Those are the bad forces.
- [49:35]
Scott Duh
And with the powers unite we are Captain Wicked.
- [49:39]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Yes, the slides themselves are kind of bad. I kind of have A reason to get this thing.
- [49:48]
Unknown Speaker
This one's cool. You're ripping off some robot's head.
- [49:51]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Oh yeah. Is that Captain Wicked?
- [49:53]
Unknown Speaker
Yes. No, that's the optimization force, I think.
- [49:56]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Oh, optimization force.
- [49:58]
Scott Duh
Looks like you're taking out the iron robot.
- [50:00]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Yeah, that's good. So we sort of explained it at high level. If people want more of this or to understand it or be able to follow it or even take their teams through it. I think this is actually if you have a media buying team or you're even an agency or you have a marketing team, let's just call it what it is. Like, a lot of people are listening to this and they might not have a team or maybe it's just for yourself. If you're running ads like, this is a tremendous framework that keeps you on track and I think that's the big part of it because there's a lot to look at. There's a lot of shiny objects and you can get distracted with all the data. Obviously the undercurrent of all this is that the KPIs that you mentioned are exceedingly great inside WICKED reports. So there is that which really does help. However, once you get in there, this training and or without WICKED reports. This training I think is critical for any marketer, especially right now because there is so much noise that's out there. And this keeps you on the straight and narrow.
- [51:01]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, it's definitely measurement system agnostic. And so you get tools downloads in here. All the slides are downloadable, but you also get a blueprint that you follow. So it's step by step. And then some of those slides I show there, you know, it'll map as long as you once you get pick the right intention, it'll tell you a lot of the other settings to choose. And then this formulas for calculating your scale. Chill Kill zone. Then there's an optimization blue step by step process that you what data points to look at based on.
- [51:31]
Lauren E. Petrulo
So you get all the worksheets and everything that we talked about here.
- [51:33]
Unknown Speaker
Yep, all the worksheets. So. And then you can use it with whatever system you're using.
- [51:38]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Yeah. So where can people get that?
- [51:40]
Unknown Speaker
5Forces.Com that's the number five. Still negotiating the other domain. I may have F I V E as well. I feel like I kind of got to buy it now.
- [51:51]
Scott Duh
So watch out.
- [51:51]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I think I'm gonna actually, I'm going back and forth on Cedo about the price with the guy.
- [51:56]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Yeah, I just. I just bought it and I trademarked it, so. And of course for perpetual Traffic listeners. You've got a special offer.
- [52:05]
Unknown Speaker
I've got a huge offer. So the course is 1500 bucks. However, perpetual traffic. I'm going to take 800 bucks off discount code PT. It'll be good through Q3. So you have three months to take us up on that.
- [52:19]
Scott Duh
So it'll be for Black Friday.
- [52:22]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Yep. Your team needs it before Black Friday. That's kind of the big thing.
- [52:26]
Scott Duh
Yeah, it's like we. We start Black Friday planning next month. We're like two weeks away when H2 kicks off. So does Black Friday.
- [52:33]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Lauren started planning back in February.
- [52:36]
Scott Duh
Yeah, I mean, like, for those listening, I've been on this show long enough, you know that, like, September with Labor Day is your mini Black Friday. So you have to make sure you have everything in place to do a soft launch of what your offer is going to be and that you build all your new customers to retarget. Because if you're spending money on new in October and November, boy, you a sucker.
- [52:56]
Lauren E. Petrulo
So you need to train on five forces now in preparation for that, is what you're saying.
- [53:00]
Scott Duh
I'm saying with the way Zuckerberg and all the ad companies are going, like the networks that allow us to do advertising on, they're trying to eliminate the need for media buying. But the role of a media buyer isn't going to go away. It's just going to evolve. And a lot of that has to be into how do you interpret and leverage the data? Because AI is going to be making a lot of the decisions. You don't have to anymore, but you're still going to be needed for decisions like how are you going to scale appropriately and how do you interpret the data that AI is choosing? And with Facebook, you're losing a lot of control on which buttons to push. But here you can do what strategies to move.
- [53:36]
Lauren E. Petrulo
What's my intention? What's my expectation? What actions am I going to take?
- [53:39]
Scott Duh
Yeah, it's almost like foundational marketing that you're having. In a world where AI is taking over so much. These are the pieces you can't neglect. Like, you can't neglect the economics, and you definitely can't neglect the psychology behind your offer. Like, all of those are going to matter truly tremendously. And this is just empowering you if you're. I mean, it says for intermediate marketers, but this, I would almost say, like, if you're wanting to be intermediate, this is going to be something that's going to call you away from the rest. Because I know that if someone can keep up on A conversation about this with me. They already are off on a good start.
- [54:13]
Unknown Speaker
That's a good point.
- [54:14]
Scott Duh
It's a lot of noise in the world right now. A lot of folks that are making claims and I'm coming after you TikTok folks that say, look, I just made a million dollars and I only spent 500. I'm like, you liar. You're not showing the rest of the story.
- [54:28]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Yeah, don't believe everything that you see on TikTok. So once again, the discount for Perpetual traffic listeners is they enter code PT like at checkout. How do they get that? Let's just make sure we're clear there. Over five forces with the number five forces.com correct.
- [54:46]
Unknown Speaker
PT take off 800 bucks.
- [54:48]
Lauren E. Petrulo
PT, can you remember that? That's worth $800 right there.
- [54:52]
Scott Duh
Two letters, 800 bucks.
- [54:54]
Lauren E. Petrulo
200 bucks. That is a lot of money on each letter. So anyway, well, this has been great. You know, obviously if you've been listening to the show here, definitely check us out over on YouTube. But I've said that before. You should know this by now. You should be subscribed, for crying out loud. But if you're not, head on over to perpetualtraffic.com YouTube so you can watch today's episode and see this in action. And I think the coolest thing is with the course, you get all the spreadsheets, all the stuff you talked about, like you gave examples in this. But it's like, how can you do this for your business, for your department, for your agency? I think this is essential and it really does eliminate all the noise that's out there right now. So check it out over@fiveforces.com make sure that you do enter the coupon code PT to save 800 bucks. Thank you, Scott. Duh. Crossy.
- [55:47]
Scott Duh
Oh my God.
- [55:48]
Lauren E. Petrulo
Grossier. Oh my God. I'm reverting back. That's why I just call you Wicked Scott. Crying out loud. Well, what works is all the links in the show notes are going to be over@perpetualtraffic.com of course. And wherever you listen to podcasts, make sure that you leave us a rating and review. It helps us to get out to a larger audience and teach people the right way to do this stuff, like the five Forces. So on behalf of my amazing co host, Lauren E. Petrulo, ciao until next show. See ya.
- [56:26]
Ralph Burns
You've been listening to Perpetual Traffic.