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Perpetual Traffic
Why Your Marketing Tracking Sucks (Even If You Think It Doesn’t) and How to Fix It
01:03:47
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- [00:01]
Ralph Burns
Hey, it's Ralph here. Let me tell you about a lifestyle brand that we recently worked with where they grew their revenue by 49.8% year over year and hit eight figures in top line revenue for the very first time in their history and they are now on track for 25 million in revenue in 2025. We are so excited to be working with this company and the reason why is they started using Tier 11 data suite about a year ago and re reduced their unattributed traffic by 90%. That's right. They're unattributed direct unknown traffic that probably frustrates the hell out of you. Over in GA4 or one of those other crappy attribution tools, we reduced that unattributed traffic by 90%, uncovered $850,000 in hidden revenue, and scaled their ad spend by over 3x. These results are not magic. The results of clean, accurate data and system designed for today's privacy world where everybody is trying to block your data. If you want to see these kinds of results for your business, reach out and let's make it happen over@tier11.com apply and discover how Tier 11 data suite can finally allow you to scale your business acquiring new customers at a cost you can afford. Head on over to tier11.com apply hey folks, Ralph here with something that could seriously upgrade your Top of Funnel ad game. If you've been a PT listener for any period of time, you know that we talk about Top of Funnel all the time and how challenging it is for you to get quality Top of Funnel clients or leads or customers and then convert them typically at bottom of funnel. Well, TV advertising is one of those areas that we haven't discussed here on PT all that much. But our friends over at Ad Critter have figured this stuff out. They do connected TV ads so you can be everywhere without spending millions on super bowl ads. But they pair it with display retargeting so you're hitting the audiences with a complete approach. You reach them, then you remind them and then you collect the revenue. It's a strategy designed to deliver and let me tell you, it really works. We're testing this at tier 11 and so far the results have been very impressive. Now with Ad Critter, creating custom audiences are so easy. You don't need to reformat files, you don't need to mess around with complex spreadsheet sheets. You just upload any file in any format and you're ready to go. And the match rate is awesome. They make it easy to connect with the right people, the actual people that have interacted with your ads in the past and then allow them to naturally flow through your funnel so you can convert them at bottom of funnel. Now, the folks at Ad Creator, we twisted their arm to get us a great deal for you, the PT listener. They are offering a special deal for y'all and that is you can get a $500 campaign credit, meaning $500 in free out the platform or dollar for dollar matching on any TV campaign up to five grand. Imagine the impact of that match. Spend five grand, they'll add another five grand in display. That's a huge opportunity here. Now it's only offered to you, the PT listener. Head over to AdCritter.com PT and check it out. Hello and welcome to the Perpetual Traffic Podcast. This is your host, Ralph Burns. I'm the founder and CEO of Tier 11 and today's show is a very important show. It's from one of our tier 11 lives we did last week. If you don't watch those or you don't tune into those, make sure that you do. Head over to tier11.com YouTube make sure that you follow us over there. I think that automatically gets you to follow tier 11, which is something that you should be doing. And we do A live every Friday with Q and A at the end. And this is one that we've never done before because most of them are very John Moran centric, very Google centric. Although he's become quite the meta media and has taught all our media buyers a lot of his tricks, especially the feeder strategy. He's now got two other strategies that he's deploying some of our clients which are getting amazing results. I was actually listing in on a call with him today where they're doing all this stuff and getting the best results they've ever gotten for their meta ads. The point is, he is a very good media buyer, a very good strategist, understands business extremely well. However, there are other people within our organization that are just about as good as he is. I hate to say it like he's good, but we've got some amazing people that are working here and as a result of that, obviously I'm biased. But pulling them in to talk to you and to be on this show is a huge advantage to you. So you should set the bar a bit higher when it comes to your media buyers, your strategists, within your department, within your own agency, and learn from this guy who is going to talk about meta ads today as well, as some technical stuff that I don't think we've ever really talked about when it comes to tier 11 data suite versus CAPI versus normal integrations versus third party applications. So there is a fair amount of technical part to this, which is super important if you want to get the data that you need in order to make the types of decisions you need to make with every dollar hanging in the balance right now for you to ultimately grow, scale your business and achieve your vision. So today's show is with one of our best media buyers at tier 11, Cameron Campbell. It's his second time over at tier 11 live. The first time was with John, this time he's with me and we're going to get into exactly how he deciphers data, what tools he uses. Yes, he does use tier 11 data suite, but he also compares it and contrasts it with capi, which a lot of you have done. We did this way back when in 2021. We converted all of our clients over to CAPI, which if you don't know what that is, it's conversions API through meta. And it was a great solution at that point in time. But it still leaves a lot to chance if we actually go through in a screen share and compare conversions API versus Data Suite. And you'll see the differences are quite remarkable. And even if it isn't just maybe a 10 or 20% difference in some accounts, in this particular case it's 30% or more. Where we're getting visibility on actions that customers are taking, or would be customers are taking for our clients so we can make better decisions, allocate the money in the right way, spend in the right way and ultimately scale and grow. And that's the reason probably why you're listening to this show, is to help your department or your business do just that. So without further ado, let's get into this week's show with myself and Cameron campbell from tier 11. Take it away, boys. You're listening to Perpetual Traffic Foreign. Welcome to Tier 11 live here on Fridays and alongside me here today is not John Moran, but a younger, better looking meta expert that John Moran is not. Cameron Campbell was on last week with John and today we're going to be getting into some pretty interesting stuff. I know a lot of the questions that we've got here are more Google related. We'll get to those as much as we possibly can. But yeah, excited to have you on today, your second tier 11 live, two weeks in a row now. Cameron, welcome back.
- [07:34]
Cameron Campbell
Honest streak. Yeah, it's funny because I noticed last time I looked very tanned and basically my camera had one of these like beauty features on because I reset the settings. So I must have looked like a Ken doll or something.
- [07:47]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, you were looking particularly handsome. I saw the replay. Yeah.
- [07:51]
Cameron Campbell
But unfortunately it was AI it wasn't reality I'm afraid.
- [07:54]
Ralph Burns
That's all right.
- [07:55]
Cameron Campbell
If anyone's watching for Valentine's Day, that guy's gone.
- [07:58]
Ralph Burns
That was last week as the real Cameron. Well, I'm like washed out white guy here like this new camera that I have that doesn't have any beauty settings. So you got me just the way that I am here today. Sometimes John, we sort of joked with him because he has get like the black background and then if he wears a black shirt, his head he looks like the floating ghost, like Casper the friendly ghost kind of in the screen. So at least we're colorized. At least we're not like black and.
- [08:22]
Cameron Campbell
White like he is. For me, John's as Bohemian Rhapsody. It's the album, the video. If you look at the music video, that's exactly what he's doing.
- [08:29]
Ralph Burns
That is totally it. That's it. Yeah. With the underlining, you need that effect.
- [08:33]
Cameron Campbell
Yeah, yeah.
- [08:34]
Ralph Burns
So all right, well cool. Well, today we're going to talk a little bit about some technical stuff and then we're going to get into something that has been very impressive to me and I know you have made a study of understanding a lot of the MPIs, a lot of the marketing performance indicators from a meta standpoint primarily, not necessarily Google. You have an understanding of it over on there as well. But it's just a generalized understanding of what these things are and just as a step backwards in case, if you don't have them yet, just download the spreadsheet, just download the checklist so you can get on the same page with us here. It's over@tier11.com MPI that's for Tierelem.com MPI we talk about it on Perpetual Traffic all the time. The MPIs or marketing performance metrics or what we call them are just a means to achieve an end for a client. And when clients come to us, as Cameron has done many times inside tier 11 and you also have your own e commerce business so you are a business owner too, which is very cool. It's like these are just metrics we use in order to achieve a business outcome. And that business outcome is whatever the goal is. The big goal is like we have a client, you have a client that you're working on, they want 12 million in revenue this year. I don't know if they have a profitability goal, but that's like their big goal. So then from that goal we begin with the end in mind and then figure out, okay, how do we get there? Is it new customer acquisition? Is it getting customers to buy more when they buy, meaning increase their average order value, get them to buy more often, maybe increasing ltv? Those are basically the three ways in which you can grow a business. And so the combination of those three are through the MPIs. The MPIs are just a means to measure how to get to the big goal. Does that make sense? Does that resonate with you? And is that something that you have conversations with clients about?
- [10:25]
Cameron Campbell
Yeah, exactly. And it's one of those things that it's new to everyone. It's still a challenge. The industry has been focused on in platform metrics for so long now, and even just front end metrics. So people are coming on to NCAC and stuff now, but it's still in education. And that's part of some of the conversations I've had this week with clients that we've been doing this for some time now, but you can see that they still don't fully understand it. They know it's good, but they don't understand fully that that full suite of things are acting on the business. And that's what we're trying to do more. Just make sure that you're concrete. They understand exactly. Well, why are we actually making you go to an NCAT target? This is why it's good. And this is why when we scale aggressively, sometimes some of your other metrics are going to come down, but it always comes back to those MPIs. And that's really what we were trying to do and just help them understand because we know it's good, but it's just making sure they know it's good and they can present to their superiors as well why we're doing things the way we're doing it, basically.
- [11:23]
Ralph Burns
And you know, if you are an agency and you're listening to this or you do this for a living and you either do it for your own business, this is a new way of looking at how to market. And we found that, yeah, the in app metrics used to be the real judge and jury, like the source of truth years ago. That is no longer the case because there are a lot of things that now block that from being the source of truth. Which we'll get into here in just a second. So you need a data solution in Order to be able to read the tea leaves to get the right metrics to move the business in the right way. Otherwise, if you're just using Google Analytics or if you're just using Cappy, when we'll talk about that here today, that data might not be as pure as it possibly could be. And that's really at the heart of this. There's the high goal of the business, there's the MPIs. And then once you establish those MPIs, what do you actually do? And the data tells you what to do. So it's almost like those three levels that you sort of have to understand. The purer the data is, the more accurate the data is, the less modeled the data is, the less AI algorithm we don't really know like Google Analytics kind of does and like a lot of the third party attribution softwares do, the less your ability is to be able to hit the MPIs and ultimately achieve your goal as a business. So it's sort of that level. It's amazing to me, Cameron, I've had, I think three calls this week with would be prospects for tier 11 where we're going through this and amazing. There was one yesterday. These guys like, I love the business that they're in. It's a $7 million business. They don't know how much they can pay to acquire a customer. They have no idea. So like a lot of businesses, this is a new thing because you used to say, well, I'm going to hire an agency, I just hire an agency and they'll figure it out. Well no, this is actually a two way street. You really do need to. And I know you've had challenges with this. I know some of the people that are listening today or watching today have had challenges with this. Some clients just don't want to change. Sometimes it's really hard, whether it's because of privacy issues, because maybe they don't trust you, maybe they just don't get it quite yet. And this is a shift in mindset more than anything else. As opposed to us just coming down from the mountain and saying this is the way that it needs to be. We're trying to educate the world that this is actually how you move the business forward. And the example this week, John, myself and TJ, who's our VP of Sales, will probably come on Tier 11 live at some point in time. If we just started running traffic to this group without an NCAT call, we would have helped them go out of business faster.
- [14:03]
Cameron Campbell
So common.
- [14:04]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, it's so common. And that's terrible. Like you don't want that as an agency. And one to three months they would have been gone. I was talking to John about it just this morning, actually texting back and forth. If we started without doing this analysis, they'd be gone and probably we might actually bankrupt them if we did what they told us to do. And I think that's a new way of looking at things now.
- [14:25]
Cameron Campbell
I think you can get very big based on luck. So, like the example you're talking about, you know, 7 million in revenue. If you have a good product or you're in like a good period where the market's just hot, you can quite. You can get quite big without knowing these numbers. And I think that's why it's been so common, especially in the big booming years for E Commerce, especially the start of COVID Everyone really grew businesses. They didn't have this stuff dialed down. And then they're now either going down the way, like you're saying, going out of business because they're scaling or they're stuck and they can't scale and they don't know why. And it's because they're not looking at these NPIs and seeing. Well, actually maybe the business is looking good. You're just looking at the wrong thing because you've got a problem with retention or repeat customers or something. It's not actually your acquisition that might be perfect. Right, right.
- [15:09]
Ralph Burns
Yeah. Even though, I mean, there was a huge boom in E commerce, obviously in 2020 and 2021, and a lot of those businesses ceased to exist in 2022. So it's now it's a harder place to be if you've got a great product you can skate by. You're absolutely right. And this client specifically, great, organic, great, you know, Amazon sales, probably spending too much money on the Amazon side, but has never really applied paid traffic in the right way and just wanted a next level of scale. And that's why they came to us. So we're sort of slowing down the whole process trying to figure it out, getting to a point where like, all right, let's figure out what an NCAC is and then ultimately get you to your goals. So before we get into some of the stuff that you want to talk about, I know there's a point of clarification that we want to make sure that we're clear on and we've gotten some questions on this in previous tier 11 lives. We're getting it a lot on our socials right now, which is we've Talked about Tier 11 data suite, you're obviously super familiar with it, you understand how the whole thing works. One of the biggest questions that we seem to be getting these days, and we were proponents of this as well, which I think is a good thing to do no matter what is Conversions, installing conversions API or CAPI. What is the difference between CAPI and Tier 11 data suite? How do they differ? How are they similar? What's your perception of it? What's your take on it?
- [16:31]
Cameron Campbell
Yeah, so I'm basically going to Share Screen and talk you through this. So bear with me to make sure I can actually do this correctly.
- [16:38]
Ralph Burns
Sharing screens, I always see Share Screen. I always tell John, I say, you know, I love. It's like show and tell on Friday. It's great. Now it's with Cameron. You're still. You're like naturally tan, I think.
- [16:50]
Cameron Campbell
Well, I am in Argentina, so it does help. It's their summer. That's. That's part of it. But, yeah, no, I'm not perfect beauty tan. I'm just.
- [16:59]
Ralph Burns
You're pretty tan.
- [16:59]
Cameron Campbell
Bit tanned, Real tan.
- [17:00]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, I am not.
- [17:01]
Cameron Campbell
So you should be saying you should be seeing lucidchart, you should be seeing Capi on screen. Is that correct or are we having some technical issues? Okay, perfect.
- [17:08]
Ralph Burns
Beautiful.
- [17:09]
Cameron Campbell
So what I'm going to do is I'm going to talk through Conversions API, capi, or it's known as. Well, first, then I'm going to talk through the Data suite and then I'll show you a little thing I've put together, overlaying CAPI onto the drawing that you presented the other week for J11 data suite. Now, these graphs aren't obviously made exactly. It's not perfect because it's different sources, so some of the things might seem different. I'll talk you through it and make sure you understand. Try to ignore some certain things in the illustrations because they're not exactly correct, how the sort of relationships work. But we'll work with it anyway. Okay, so Conversions API, the thing that we told everyone to install to enrich their data, basically is a way of getting around app blockers and browser blockers, things that are basically removing your data from coming back to the ad platform. Specifically Meta for Conversions API. So what's basically going to happen in the environment of Conversions API is someone's going to click on one of the ads and they're going to have a click ID in their URL from Meta, the FB clid. So they're then going to move to your website. Okay, what was happening before when iOS 14 came into play was that click ID was being removed by the browser and Meta was losing any awareness of who that person was. Okay, so they've clicked on an ad and they've basically just gone into no man's land. There's no way now to tie them back to your ad. So what they did is they brought into play conversions API. And what that would do is you're still losing that click id, but the server that your website is hosted on is able to look at what the people are doing on the website and via the API, which is this section here. Feed that first party data. So names email addresses from the website back to the ad platforms. And then what Meta would do is they would look at the names they have for people, the contact information they have for people, the email address is the first party data. They would hash the data coming through the API, match it up, and they would try to basically match people that were coming from your API to the people that had clicked on your original ad or viewed through on your original ad. Okay. And that was partially right. It was better than having no data. But you're losing a lot of data because the server has no idea who these people are. It's just relying on the names and email addresses that it's passing back to Meta. And anyone who signs up to an account knows you might have multiple different email addresses, you might have different names that you're using for your actual, your account, your credit card, whatever, they're not going to tie up perfectly. So there's a lot of data lost in this situation. Okay, so essentially that it's basically passing first party data to the app platforms and then Meta does this thing where it tries to match people up. That's in a nutshell, what conversion API is doing. Is there anything else you'd like to add, Ralph, or is that good enough?
- [20:08]
Ralph Burns
So the question then becomes and where is like just at a base level is first party data by capturing it on your own. Like we used Google Tag Manager when we did this, obviously. But first party data is being captured by your website, so therefore it's yours. So therefore that is the reason why this whole thing works and you're passing it back to the ad platform as a first party data. Maybe you can explain the difference between first party and third party, because I think that's where people, a lot of people get tripped up.
- [20:41]
Cameron Campbell
Okay, yeah. So first party data, of course, is the data that's coming directly from you. Like you said, as the website, third party data is coming via the Pixel. So it's the, it's not your data, it's something sitting on your website that's passing that back to the ad platforms essentially. So it's you, you own this data, is people actually buying from you, giving you the email address and things. The other version, I guess it's like watching what's happening rather than being the actual first party data.
- [21:10]
Ralph Burns
Right. So you're using the Pixel in this case. The Pixel then becomes the third party in this whole thing. And the reason how, why API that, why CAPI works through the API is because you are the first party data that you actually own it. Provided that you have a privacy policy on your page, you can do all this. You stay above board with all the privacy restrictions that are not only in the United States, but internationally. So that there is that whole thing, then the data comes back. One of the things that we would always sort of check was the EMQ score inside meta. Specifically we're talking about meta here, just in this specific example is the EMQ score was our indication that we were getting a better match rate on specific events with Capi and we did see an increase in that efficiency. Can you talk to that and what that really means for you on a day to day basis managing ads inside the platform itself?
- [22:05]
Cameron Campbell
Yeah, well, I mean a better EMQ essentially for us is meaning we're getting better data back in our campaigns. So those campaigns have more data. It's a machine learning platform, they are better at optimizing. So essentially we can get better results because the machine is smarter, it's getting better match rates from that data coming back. So conversion API, no doubt, if you're just using Pixel is a massive step up. And yeah, having it in place was the right thing to do until something new came along.
- [22:35]
Ralph Burns
Right. And the other part to this is that, okay, you're getting better data than what you were getting blinded to. I remember you were a part of this in 2021 when this whole thing hit in summer of 2021. And then all of a sudden it was, I mean it was just a nightmare because it was terrible. It was terrible. Facebook, at that point in time, I believe it was just Facebook, it wasn't meta yet. My memory serves me correctly. They were caught, this came out of nowhere, they were ill prepared and Cappy came out of that months later, which did restore some of the data inside the platform. But all of a sudden we were completely flying blind. And especially for, I remember for some of our, I wouldn't even say like higher end, but iPhone users Apple users tend to be higher end buyers. And I remember one, one account in particular, we lost 60 to 70% of our conversions liter overnight.
- [23:29]
Cameron Campbell
Yeah, crazy.
- [23:30]
Ralph Burns
And Facebook didn't have an answer to it. And so Capi was an outgrowth of that. But there was a long time, it seemed like forever, but it was three to six months. I think it took us at least six months to maybe even longer to install Capi in all of our accounts. And it still was a process because it was clunky and so forth. But all during that time and even to this day, Facebook and Meta in particular still isn't getting all the data. They're still modeling a fair amount of data. Can you speak to that and like what you think as far as a percentage goes, like how accurate you're seeing things inside platform, how much is modeled, how much is actual, how much does Capi really enhance things? But then there's also sort of this whole other segment of users that are just never going to be captured.
- [24:16]
Cameron Campbell
Yeah, I mean in terms of actual percentages, I don't really know what it would be. The reality is these days, and I think other people are the same who are using your 11 data suite is we don't really look too much at the end platform numbers anymore because it is just a lot of nonsense and we have the data so we can look elsewhere. But in terms of model data is a big problem because if you are looking in platform, basically what Meta is doing is they're going, okay, we don't have oversight into what is actually happening on the website. We don't have the connection anymore. So we're just going to try and estimate based on how many people are clicking away from our ad, how many people are we're able to then match again later with our, our hashing from the conversions API, we're going to estimate like what percentage of those people are taking what action. So how many people are adding to car, how many people are purchasing and it's just way off. You might have some weeks where especially if you're on a smaller brand, you'll look at it and you'll be like, oh, this looks like it is very accurate. And you'll have other weeks where it's telling you you've had all these sales and you can look at your Shopify dashboard and you're getting anything. So it seems like it's a guessing game and it just doesn't have any credibility even when you're at scale in my experience. And we can show you later on in this, when we look at the actual Data Suite data versus what you're seeing in Platform for Meta, there's a significant difference. And Data Suite is always going to have lower CPAs because. Not because it's a different brand or anything, just because all that model data is going to make your campaigns look worse than they are. And there's stuff you could be turning off because you don't think it's doing well. But it's just models data, it's not real numbers that are actually the performance of that campaign.
- [25:55]
Ralph Burns
So I think a lot of folks who installed capi, and now those are the folks that, you know, Data Suite is a potential solution here, obviously, which we're going to get to in just a second here. But I think with capi, you might fall into. You might have a false sense of security because what you think you're seeing isn't actually what you're seeing. And then when you compare it to the source of truth, which we did pre Data Suite, we're always like, why are these numbers so far off? Exactly like what you're saying. Even with CAPI installed, you still weren't getting accurate data because there's this large portion. I guess it really depends on how many iOS clickers there are and how many ad blockers and how many cookie deprecators they're clicking on. The point is there is a certain portion that Meta and Facebook are just never going to capture no matter what, and they're taking a guess at it. And that guess might be wrong, might be right, or it might be somewhere in between, but you still don't know with 100% certainty.
- [26:52]
Cameron Campbell
Yeah, and that's the big element, really. As someone who was doing the media buying, it's like with capi, your data was getting better for the platforms to optimize, but you just could not trust anything you were looking at in the platform because, okay, it's good that the actual platform is learning and we're going to get better conversion from that. But if I made human decisions based on something that's incorrect, I then stop that whole process because I might turn off the thing that was bringing all the conversions and generating that data in the first place, and then you don't see the effect until a bit later when, if you are looking at your mpi, you'd see a drop and you'd have to go turn back on the thing that you turned off. So it enhances the optimizations phase, but it doesn't do anything for the reporting phase in Meta.
- [27:37]
Ralph Burns
That's a really Good way of saying it. It does enhance optimization to a certain degree. However, for reporting, it's still highly inaccurate because there is a fair amount of guessing that goes along. All right, so maybe let's compare and contrast tier 11 data suite here. Not to turn this into a tier 11 data suite pitch, but this is a pretty remarkable system that we figured out over the course of the last couple years to solve this very problem. Because visibility into the data is everything. Like I said before, if your goal is to go from 6 million to 12 million in revenue, okay, it's a $6 million gap. How are you going to get there? Is it all new customer acquisition? Is it higher AOVs, higher LTVs? How are you going to do it? Chances are probably a new customer acquisition is a very important part of that. And that's the reason why NCAC or New Customer acquisition cost is such a vital stat, such a vital goal. You as a media buyer, you're looking at that all the time and measuring against it, benchmarking it. But that data, that number has to be as accurate as possible. And if you're relying on in app, it might be right, might not be right, might be somewhere in between, but you don't have a high degree of confidence in that number. How does tier 11 data suite potentially solve that problem or at least come close to solving it?
- [28:59]
Cameron Campbell
Okay, cool. So this is obviously our current explanation of Data Suite. What I want to just say is don't get too hung up, like I said before on the different aspects, the arrows. Because when I try to show you how capi compares, it might get confusing, but we're just going to look at the data path at the moment. So basically in this, the purple is the path of the data and the pink is just symbolizing the actual user's journey. Okay, so it's not data. That's something that, that caught me before. Okay, so same situation. People are on the ad platforms, whatever ad platform, because we're talking about conversions API, we will look at meta today. So let's say someone again clicks on that ad from Meta, there's going to be an intermediate step. Okay, so they leave the ad platform, they get a first party cookie added by the app platform, they get the click ID added as before. But what happens is they pass through this thing called the Edge, which is hosted on the Edge server. This is a content display network. Okay, now what happens here in Tier 11's data suite, this doesn't happen in the other example. This only happens in Tier 11's data suite is that Signal that is on the person leaving is captured. Okay. So it's captured here and it's sent to our data warehouse. So I'm going to come back to that in a minute. What then happens is that person continues on to your website that is hosted on the origin server, which is the server hosting their website. Okay, but if we follow the pathway of the data, what is happening? So what is happening is that data is sent to our data warehouse, like I said. And then a couple of things happen. One, it can speak to the actual E commerce platform, so we're getting data from there first party as well. And then the second thing is it's going to send that back once it's fingerprinted it, match those people up, it's going to send that back directly to the ad platforms and you have far richer data. So what would happen in another situation after this edge step is you would then lose the data. So we're not losing any of the data because we're doing this before the browser ad blockers take the signals out of the data. Essentially like happens with the conversion API. So we're getting all the data at this step and it goes into the data warehouse, all gets matched together and then sent back to the platforms directly.
- [31:29]
Ralph Burns
Makes sense. The difference is if we take out the edge and you have that sort of that pink arrow that goes to the origin server and then right after that it's then blocked in essence on the browser itself. And that's where the problem happens. And Capi doesn't solve that problem. And that's the reason why you can't really trust 100% that data. And that's why this is a solution that makes a whole lot more sense. And there's a lot of different ways to do this. We've got a video we'll leave for you guys as well. It's now on YouTube that explains this going all the way through. But I think understanding it fundamentally gives people especially the level of expertise that are on these calls, gives them an understanding of, okay, this is actually something that's fundamentally different than the solution I have in place right now because of this edge server. And the edge server basically captures that user before they actually enter your store. They, as we said a few times here on this show, is that but we capture the data of your user when they enter the parking lot as opposed to when they walk through your front door. And that way we can then pump it back to the data warehouse, which is first party data, and then we can do whatever we need to do. With it there, provided that we're compliant. And this is 100% compliant solution with all the privacy restrictions in the US as well as internationally.
- [32:54]
Cameron Campbell
Yeah, exactly. And this is where I've tried to show you what Capi is doing differently. As you just said, Ralph. So Capi would be the greens. It's coming to the browser, loses the cookies and that that signal's gone. And then your server is sending it back to their platforms. But it has no idea who those people are at this point. It's just people who've bought from your website. And Meta has to do the job of matching those people up versus you in this situation, having the data, we know who they are because we have the tags coming from the platforms. We just have to wait for those people to buy and then we can send that back to the platform saying, hey, we've already matched people up. These are the people that clicked on your ad because we know you have the tag. There you go.
- [33:32]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, yeah, makes sense. And I love the green arrows here, by the way. So Cameron did all this. You did all this on your own. I didn't know you had like these types of skills. Tremendous. No, I mean, that really is, in essence the difference between the two. I guess maybe we can show. I mean, this is obviously. This makes sense. We're going to be taking some questions here in just a little bit. There's obviously a lot of Google Ads questions which we may have to couch those for when John gets back on this camera.
- [33:58]
Cameron Campbell
Slippy shoulders for those ones.
- [33:59]
Ralph Burns
Yes. That might just sort of slip off. But anyway, I know John Moran's dog is chomping at the bit. John Moran's forehead, I think, is a new one. John Moran's liver. Kidney. Anyway, the point is, is that this is a fundamentally different approach. And the reason why we put this together is because we have. We wrote the integration between the Edge, which is by a company called Bloodout. They use Cloudflare. Look it up. CDN. It's the largest CDN in the world. There's 7,000 edge servers that they utilize that put their particular script on there and that platform. Plus our data warehouse integrated back into Wicked Reports, which is our interface, which is where you read the data, which we're going to hopefully see right here, sort of compare and contrast. That's where the rubber meets the road. Because the integration between those three things makes everything different. But the key is capturing the data on the Edge before it gets blocked by the browser. And that's the key difference between Capi.
- [35:02]
Cameron Campbell
Would you agree yeah, exactly.
- [35:05]
Ralph Burns
All right, so maybe we can go into like a compare and contrast. Do you have an example of maybe showing the interface itself in a particular account and maybe how you would sort of look at the data inside, how you're viewing things inside Meta versus looking inside the interface, inside Wicked reports? Is that safe to assume you still do look at the ad platforms to a certain degree. And if you need to share your screen, screen, that's cool too, because it's not like you don't look inside the ad platform. I just want to make that clear because, no, I'm still look.
- [35:38]
Cameron Campbell
Yeah, no, I'm in that platform all day, every day, basically. I live in that thing. So when they, when they introduce new things that cause bugs, my life is stressed straight away. There's no delay.
- [35:49]
Ralph Burns
Oh, my God. That never happens. Come on. They never change anything without telling you first.
- [35:54]
Cameron Campbell
Oh, no, no. Meta would never do that.
- [35:56]
Ralph Burns
Not in a million years. So this Cameron gets his screen up here. So we're not discounting looking at the platform. I know we've talked about this before, numerous times. Yeah. In app, Roas is not to be trusted. However, we still use it. We've got a lot of content out there on the Internet. The Interwebs, Cameron, that says ROAS sucks, and it does suck as a source of truth, but we still look at it. You still look at it as one of the metrics that you look at then, that's obviously in Platform, but the real source of truth now, when you have Data Suite, you used to actually go into probably Shopify or the real source of truth in the CRM. Now you can see the same thing inside the interface, inside Wicked reports, inside Data Suite. All right, so here we are, we're looking at the inside of a Meta ad account. Take us through sort of how you would compare and contrast and, and utilize this data and then cross reference it with what you see inside Data Suite.
- [36:56]
Cameron Campbell
Yeah, sure. So I'll jump through and show you a couple of things and then I'll give you an idea of how as a media buyer, this has tangibly helped me have massive wins, basically. So if we look at Meta right now, I just want to speak firstly to the CPA that we have and how I was speaking about earlier, where you're always going to see it lower in Data Suite because you have more data. You're getting those purchases that Meta doesn't know they're actually in existence. Okay, so that's what you see here. You can see these campaigns.
- [37:25]
Ralph Burns
We're looking at January of 2025.
- [37:28]
Cameron Campbell
This is January 2025.
- [37:30]
Ralph Burns
We're recording this on Valentine's Day, by the way. By the way, Happy Valentine's Day.
- [37:34]
Cameron Campbell
So yeah, you can see this. We'll just look at these first two to show it. So you've got 801 here and 179. Use them as the identifiers for these campaigns names. Perfect. So we have $95 cost per purchase showing in the app platform, $64 cost per purchase shown here. Okay, so we take away NCAC and all these things. Meta can't show you that unless you have Data Suite, which is another topic. But anyway, Meta can't show you that as standard. So we have the blended CPA of new customers and return customers. If I go into tier 11 data suite via bucket reports, really here you can see if I look at all CAC, which is the same metric being compared, we have $77 and 56. So you've gone 95, 64, 77, 56. So this scenario, there's nothing I can show you where it's like, oh, I would have turned off these campaigns or anything because obviously I'm not using it like this. I have the tools. But there could definitely be situations where you're $5 over the target, you're $10 over the target, and for your business, that is too much of the target and you have to cut something. But the reality is it's not over target if you were looking in a place that had all the data. And I think a lot of people can get held back by things like this. However, as I mentioned, we have the luxury of having other metrics that don't exist in Ads Manager. So let me just stop the one.
- [38:58]
Ralph Burns
That is our before you go into the other metrics. So what you just showed is a perfect example. Same time frame, same look back, period. We're looking at January of 2024 here and we are Valentine's Day. Okay. We're two weeks after that. The point is that the all CAC, the ACAC, which is the entire cost of acquiring a customer, is about 20%. There's a 20 or 25% difference between what you're looking at inside Meta and what you're actually seeing inside the interface. Wicked reports and Data Suite, which is not insignificant.
- [39:36]
Cameron Campbell
Yeah. So that's not live. Like you said, it's two weeks later, it's had time to bring all that data back. It should be as rich as it's ever going to get. And yeah, it's 20% difference.
- [39:46]
Ralph Burns
Yeah. Right. So like the modeling has already taken place. They've filled the gaps as much as possible. We're not looking if it would be an unfair comparison if we actually looked back from the 15th of January to today because the data would still be, it would be more of a difference. You're actually giving it a two week grace period to give Meta even more chance to backfill. But now it's two weeks later. These are decisions you have to be making. You're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars. There is a lot of money on the line here and you need to be able to make accurate decisions based upon true data as opposed to modeled data or data that you're not confident in.
- [40:23]
Cameron Campbell
Yeah, exactly. So to add to that then what we are making those decisions on really is not this all CAC number because we're focused on new customer acquisition as you and John have repeatedly told everyone about. So people have been watching for a long time, should have that ingrained in them now. But we are practicing what we preach. Like this is what we do on a daily basis in the actual account. Okay, so I am looking at this North Star metric here of new customer cost or new customer acquisition cost of acquiring new customer. And it just doesn't exist in Ads Manager. So if I wanted to get this for Ads Manager, I'd have to go into Shopify, I'd have to download a report of new customers. This is what you used to do. And I'd work out, okay, what, what have we spent on a certain campaign? How many people have bought that particular product and make a loose calculation of, okay, they're probably buying the product we're showing from ads. This is maybe what my NCAC is, but it's not very accurate. This tells me every single campaign ad set and ad, what is the actual new customer acquisition cost for that asset. So it's fantastic. It's really, really helpful when you're trying to determine how to optimize the campaign and judge the performance week to week of your actual fluctuations and seasonality as stuff goes out of stock, all the things like that.
- [41:36]
Ralph Burns
That's a game changer right there because that's accurate. Like when we said before, okay, you've got the big goal, you've got your MPIs, you've got your, like you, your business metrics. Obviously you need to understand to determine what your NCAC is. There's that whole thing that we talked about. But when you get down to all right, I need to acquire more customers at a cost that makes sense for this particular, a particular client And I believe the ceiling on the NCAC here is, what is it, $100 in that range. As far as NCAT goes. Yeah, it's right around there. So you're below it. But you need to know accurately what am I acquiring a new customer for. And that's the difference between data suite and everything else that's out there because it is able to determine who is new and who is returning with. We measured this on another tier 11 live. It's almost 99% accurate. It which is crazy because of what you described in the first 20 minutes of the show. We're capturing the data on the edge before the data gets blocked and then capturing as first party data, pumping it back into the ad platform, which is in this case, we're still pumping it back in. It's not going to be 100% accurate. However, when you view it inside the interface, it's nearly 100% accurate. We're never going to say 100%. Let's say it's 99% or 95%. John continues to say it's 100%. But anyway, yeah, cover yourself, cover yourself. Nothing's ever 100%. That's why, you know, Ivory soap is 99.9. What is 44 and 100 is pure? Anyway, we'll go out the Ivory Soap Road here. 99%. So but that's a super important thing. So you're making these decisions on real data is my point here.
- [43:19]
Cameron Campbell
Yeah, exactly. And this is one thing I want to show you specifically, Ralph. So we have tons of metrics in this dashboard that don't exist. Existing ads manager.
- [43:26]
Ralph Burns
Right.
- [43:26]
Cameron Campbell
But one of the things you mentioned there was the new customers, new visitors. Okay. And here's an example of me actually using this where in prior working you just, you wouldn't have this information and you might make decisions that are incorrect or if they're not incorrect, they just hold you back from scaling. Okay, so this ties back into what John and I were discussing last week with time lag. And you can work with time lag when you have this because you have additional information. So this is basically a week week. I need to just look, what was the week 8th of this was December. So 8th. Or is it August? Yeah, I think this is August. I'm getting confused by the American dates. I think it's 12th of August to the 18th of August.
- [44:06]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, August. Yep.
- [44:07]
Cameron Campbell
Yeah. Okay. Anyway, you can see in this week we're looking high level now at all the platforms because we're doing stuff on meta in this account Mainly, but we want to see how it affects full funnel and you're going to see this played out. Okay, so there was a 17 increase in spend because we wanted to scale. So when we do that, the NCAC here, you can see it's come up 30% over 100 to $104. We are above our target. Okay, so previously, what people would do, they look at that and go, oh no, we're above the target. That's been a full week. Let's scale back that 20% we just did on Meta. However, because I have this information, I can look at this metric here that is 99% accurate or 100 accurate if you're John. And I can say, well, we've got 26% new visits to the website for that 17% increase in cost. So even though the NCAC has come up with this time lag thing we were talking about last week, I know the time lag on this business is two weeks. I just want to wait another week to see what happens once people move down the funnel and convert on Google with that extra time that they need. Because Google's telling me that's how long long it's going to take. Okay, So I know from this metric that, well, I'm getting the visits. Meta's done its job. It's bringing me the people right now. I just want to wait a bit longer and see how the funnel performs because I know how the funnel works. Okay, so if I look around, sorry, my camera is in the way and I move this a week forward.
- [45:31]
Ralph Burns
So just for those of you who might be listening here, what we're doing is we're comparing. Back in August when you scaled up a meta campaign by about 16 or 17% in that week you saw NCAC starting to rise, but you knew because it takes about two weeks. And this was last week's show, which was awesome, by the way. Last week's show showed us that the importance of time lag and time lag is absolutely essential. But you know, in this particular case with this customer, it takes about 14 days or so for a client to. Or a new customer for them from first impression or first click to purchase. Is that what you're doing? Are you using first impression? You're using first click. How do you measure that first impression?
- [46:16]
Cameron Campbell
This is first impression.
- [46:17]
Ralph Burns
First impression on Google makes sense.
- [46:19]
Cameron Campbell
Yeah, perfect. Yeah. So hit that as the next week and NCAC is now down 10%. New visits are stable because we have, obviously we're not increased new visits, we've not increased Again, and everything else is looking green because it's just a funnel. So that's like a perfect example of how I use this in reality. And yeah, massive, massive help.
- [46:41]
Ralph Burns
That's fantastic. So it's a combination of solid data. Also understanding the client journey. Well, the journey for the customer's journey in this particular case. And every single time lag is going to be different for every single customer. You just happen to know, working with them and looking at the data and. And for people who don't know that, I know John uses Google in order to do it. How did you do it pre. I think that was sort of a revelation because sometimes it appears, sometimes it doesn't. You have to refresh the screen inside the Google Ads platform. It's like, how did you figure out it was 14 days without that? Or what's the best way to figure out time lag?
- [47:20]
Cameron Campbell
Well, we had the luxury of John a long time ago, told us so before we didn't do it, we just kind of knew like some clients would have. Have information, they know how long their funnel was and we could kind of work with that. But a lot of people just. You just didn't know? Yeah, it was just a case of, okay, we've gone down. And you develop practices like crutches, really. So I used to just hold a lot of people. I'm very against it on the meta side. They'll scale up every three days, scale back every three days, that kind of thing. I got into the habit of just making performance decisions on a weekly basis. So I always do things on a Monday. I would wait a week no matter what, and then I might hold a week and then pull back. So it's just really the lock rather than actual science. But now we have the science. We can look at time lag in Google and we know exactly how long the conversion window is. Perfect to wait, basically.
- [48:04]
Ralph Burns
That's great. Well, this has been amazing. Love the theory. Like, this is how it works, this is how you actually use it in practice. Compare and contrast. And obviously this is a tool that's now being deployed that's making what you do every single day a hell of a lot more effective. And I know for a fact this client is ecstatic with the results that without this type of data, I don't know as if we would have been able to get it because we would have been guessing most of the time.
- [48:31]
Cameron Campbell
Safe to say, yeah, for sure. And one more thing. Just because I have other accounts, Ralph, that have dashboards like this and they show new visits. What you're saying about the accuracy is a big factor here as well because there's certain tools that I use where they have this. But you don't know if the new visits are actually accurate it because they don't have that piece of the edge tag capturing those people essentially.
- [48:54]
Ralph Burns
Yeah. And the edge tag is the key. So you need the edge tag in order to install it. You need the interface to be able to read it. The only place you can get it is 211 data suite. So anyway, enough with the sales pitch. But that is the sales pitch because that's the facts. All right, we're going to get to some questions here and we're going to put you where I'm going to try it. For any of you who are asking really specific John Google questions. We're going to kind of skip over some of those. Maybe you can come back and ask them next week. He is going to be back. He's out with his daughter today. I think today is his daughter's birthday on Valentine's Day. So anyway, so happy birthday there. Let's go into some of these. And John Moran's dog actually has a great question here which I think you can, you are very well versed in answering. I don't know, are we going to have a Cameron Campbell's dog at some point in time on this channel? I don't know. I guess you need a dog.
- [49:43]
Cameron Campbell
I feel like a cat would be better. Alliteration. Cameron's cat or something.
- [49:47]
Ralph Burns
Cameron's cat. All right. John Ran's dog asks, how can you effectively shift clients focus from ROAS to MER ncac, especially those who struggle to move away from a ROAS mindset. Great question.
- [49:58]
Cameron Campbell
Yeah, I think, well, you and John have basically made perfect videos outlining this and for me it's a case of send them the video, send them the timestamp because I think John showed one where he looks at MER and CAC in the Wicked Reports dashboard and you can see one line going up, one line going down. And you know, it's perfect. Okay. How I've done it with clients is I've literally drawn graphs. So I, I have graphs that I think I showed this week to a client we were maybe going to talk about today, but there's not enough time. But I basically just show them. I show them what happens in scenarios where you have the ad stop. What would happen to that return customer? It would keep going up, your MER would go up. What would happen if you scale too aggressively? And then you can see the, the gap Between. Okay, the two lines are very close in this part of the, of the graph down here where we scaled up aggressively, they're very far apart. That's why your MER is coming down. Like it's not. If you do it visually, it's not that hard to explain, but it needs to be that visual thing for people to get the aha moment in my opinion.
- [50:58]
Ralph Burns
Very cool. I think. Yeah, it's a long process. In some cases we are still figuring out how to do this in some clients that have just for whatever reason, maybe our contact is not not selling it internally as well as they can or can possibly. Or the C suite or the leadership team within the organization just is stuck in this old way of doing things.
- [51:24]
Cameron Campbell
This is don't want to know yet.
- [51:25]
Ralph Burns
And don't want to know and don't want to look at a new way of doing things. But this is a complete mind shift. Thankfully, we have a tool and a solution that now exposes this and shows it. And up until really about three to six months ago, I know you've been using it for some time. Your clients were actually on these before pretty much Everybody else inside tier 11. We didn't really have a tool to prove it. So now we do. And that's been the big part to it. And now that we've sort of vetted it internally, this is going to be a part of your job now because otherwise you are really marketing blind. So. Okay, Roman.
- [51:59]
Cameron Campbell
Yeah, And I have big accounts. One wants to do nine figures this year and it's. They've been two years. It's like just trying to get the education and change things. Even they've done with you for a long time. Yeah, it's that familiarity, you know, consistency bias. It's hard to then say, well, we're now going to do it different. You have to educate gradually.
- [52:16]
Ralph Burns
Super hard. I know which one you're talking about there. All right, well, great question, John. All right. Romina has a question. I have some meta ads questions. When it comes to running meta ads, how many new creatives should you be testing every week?
- [52:29]
Cameron Campbell
Yeah, so for me it's like I know there's people online always talking about testing creative and you should test X percentage or whatever and, and test, test, test, test all the time. I definitely think quality is better than quantity. So it depends on what resources you have. If you're like a founder led brand and you're happy doing the content and you can pump out tons of content or you have a product that's just very intuitive for People making content make as much as possible. If you have something that is a lot harder to advertise, you've got to be more strategic with it. And I would say the minimums really you're looking at doing is if you're running a campaign, you want to be at least getting every creative to have three to five times your target CPA and spend per week. So if you have a certain budget for the campaign, as long as every creative in that budget could get three to five times a cpa, they might not all get that because some might just get weighting of the spend. That is a good enough metric for me to say that's how many you need to test. But I'm a big proponent of you don't need to test every week. Week. People want you testing constantly. I found. And like what you talk about with trade of not fatiguing with John, I completely support that. Too many accounts have had the same creative for years in them. It doesn't necessarily fatigue if you know what you're doing on the media buying side.
- [53:44]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, there's audience fatigue, not necessarily ad fatigue. Which was sort of the whole.
- [53:48]
Cameron Campbell
Exactly, yeah.
- [53:49]
Ralph Burns
Which was one of the videos that we did a while back. Romina has another question here. Wow, she is on the ball here today. She's on it. What one thing you've noticed that really sets a successful business apart. Like what do bigger businesses do differently that helps them scale?
- [54:04]
Cameron Campbell
Yeah, I. I think the bigger businesses, especially when they have marketing teams, they're more removed from the emotion of the business and they look at things on longer time frames and it means they chill more and it just basically allows them to scale. Kind of like the example I showed you where we've seen the new visits come up and we've waited a week. Week that's very hard to do where people have basically started this business from the ground and it's their baby. I find these sort of founders are. There's someone very close to it from the beginning. They're looking at performance daily and they're getting the stress of that. That daily return basically because it's their money or it's. They can see it going out of business and that's that fear. So for me, that's a big thing. Like the big businesses, they have teams in place place and they don't have the emotional connection so they don't care as much about the daily fluctuation. But that is actually a positive thing that allows them to grow bigger because they're not meddling. Just like don't touch it.
- [55:04]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, yeah, no, I would agree. I mean, I think there's an emotional attachment as a founder. I mean, being one myself. 100%. If you have people that are in, as long as you're well informed. Like in that particular case when you scaled up by 17% and all of a sudden my NCAC starts to increase. That was. Let's not freak out here. We also know the data. You knew that it was a 14 day window in order to figure out whether or not that scale was going to turn into new customers, which it eventually did. So it's like it's holding on sometimes just a little bit longer. And having trust in your team oftentimes is the key to scale as a business owner, at least that's from my perspective. Hire the best people you possibly can and let them do their job. So. Exactly, yeah, 100%.
- [55:48]
Cameron Campbell
And definitely don't be looking at it on a daily basis. I think that's the worst torture anyone can do to themselves. It's meant to fluctuate day to day.
- [55:55]
Ralph Burns
It's like looking at your stock portfolio, like every minute or every day.
- [55:59]
Cameron Campbell
Crazy. Which everyone does.
- [56:01]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, everyone does. But I mean, it's human nature, so. All right, John Moran's disciple. We have his dog and his disciple here. Meta question. What's the simple but proven remarketing campaign strategy on Meta for E Commerce? And we've got got four minutes left, so we're going to try and get to as many of these as possible. So go for it.
- [56:18]
Cameron Campbell
Yeah, for me, it's just making creative that is going to be dealing with the things people care about in that remarketing phase. So like, if you're making creatives, you have to think, what is that creative intended to do? If you just have a creative that is basically talking about someone's problem and introducing your product, but doesn't handle any of their objections or compare any competitors that they might be seeing, you're going to basically lose out. So for me, it's all about looking at that creative and going, hey, do I have a full suite of stuff that is going to handle the problems that my customer has when they're being remarketed to? And for me, that's a big thing. It's like just making sure you're marketing to the people correctly.
- [56:54]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, 100%. Quick question here. I'm not sure. China X said I'm not sure. Isn't Data Suite the same as Wicked Reports? Wicked Reports is the interface portion of Data Suite. It's one part of the Integration. The data warehouse is the other part. But the most important thing is the integration between the edge by blotout the data warehouse where it captures the first party data so it's our first party data and then it's actually piped into the interface which is Wicked Reports. So side by side looking at and we'll have future shows on this side by side. Wicked Reports versus alone versus data suite using Wicked Reports interface. There are clear differences. Almost like Cameron talked about here with Cappy. Still is better from that standpoint. We're also shareholders in Wicked Reports. However, we created a slightly better, more accurate solution for people like Cameron to be able to make these sorts of decisions. So thanks for that question there, Ali Leeboy. You should be asking questions here. My God. All right, Romina's got lots of questions. I think this might sort of be our last one here. When it comes to running meta ads, how many new creatives. Oh, we already asked that one.
- [58:03]
Cameron Campbell
We asked that.
- [58:04]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, I already asked that one. Here's one from Alison. How should paid content on meta ads and organic IG content work together? Should we be using organic IG to test content angles that resonate with our audience or are they completely separate?
- [58:18]
Cameron Campbell
I personally think they're completely separate. Like you're never going to be as fast on your organic at getting data as you can be with paid ads. I think you're best using the organic side to build brands, build brand loyalty, build people top of funnel, that kind of stuff. Try to sell to them less, be more aesthetic, sell the brand as a visual thing and this personality and then on the ads, that's where you hard sell. Like I really like selling quite hard on the ads basically. Yeah, I think that's what they're good for because you can turn it off and nobody sees it.
- [58:50]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, that's the beauty. But to your point, like it's something that you see when you're doing this, when you're doing analysis. If you have a really good content content team and they're posting a lot on Instagram or Facebook, do you go in and look and see like from a page standpoint or from on their Instagram accounts, like what's resonating that's related to the brand. Do you look at that for potential creative ideas, you know, new ways in which to scale? Like how do you leverage it?
- [59:15]
Cameron Campbell
Yep, 100%. We'll look at it, we'll look at comments. If it's something that has a kind of conversion theme to it, we will even test it as an ad. But if it's getting engagement, you know, it's getting lots of views and stuff that's part of the algorithm. You know, you're wanting to get engagement as well as meet your conversion, your sorry business objective. That is how the Facebook auction works. So absolutely. If something's getting engagement, even if it's not in its current form, useful to be as an ad, we can take it, repurpose it, or we can use it as inspiration because we know it's something that gets engagement. How can we make this into something that actually sells as well?
- [59:49]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, differentiate that between product somewhat or disease state or whatever it is related to the industry that you're in as opposed to, you know, a lot of content. Teams will just do a funny meme of like the CEO or something like that, like, which gets lots of. It's not going to be an ad.
- [60:05]
Cameron Campbell
So that's not a sad.
- [60:06]
Ralph Burns
Not that we would ever do that on our Instagram, but I have seen it done. All right, we've got last question here and we're going to ask from Metagirl. Great name, by the way, what's your strategy for testing creatives, audiences and placements within media? So what is your testing strategy?
- [60:21]
Cameron Campbell
Yeah, basically, again, all starts to creative. We have like an overarching pillar. So that'd be the pillar or angle of your creative that you know is proven from what you're seeing in your other ads. So I'd say go look at your other ads, see what seems to be a consistent theme. Then we're going to be testing different messaging or different visuals. I have a very complicated diagram of how we test and we basically isolate variables, we isolate hooks, and then we have bodies or we. We have the same body and we change the hooks. But essentially it's pretty simple what I do. I like to test them all in the campaign with the running because I'm at scale. So it's an environment where they're going to have to operate and just put them in. Everything always starts to me on a Monday. I let it run for a full week and then review it and then we make decisions. How is the creative performed, but also how is our overall MPI being affected? Has it been brought down? Has it been lifted? Because you need to factor that in as well with creative testing.
- [61:13]
Ralph Burns
That's awesome. That's got to be a tier 11 live, just to show how you actually do your testing. Because that's one of the biggest questions that has always existed on Meta. What's the best way to test? And everybody has a different answer and obviously it works for you with super good data now obviously with data suite. Thank you so much for coming on. You pinch hit here on short notice, put together a presentation for our viewers listeners which was absolutely amazing. Great job. Thank you so much for coming on today. Cameron, Lauren, once you back soon we're gonna have to bump out that Moran guy I think for a couple more shows or maybe you guys can go toe to toe. I don't know. I think we're onto something here but thank you so much all of you. We did not get to all the questions. This was the worst week for us to get to questions. We were more content focused. Come back next week. I know John and I were going to be doing next week's show. Obviously we can answer a lot of your Google related questions then. Same time, Same channel, same 2:30 every Friday. Tier 11 live. Thank you Cameron Campbell for co hosting today. All right, hope you enjoyed today's episode and I know there's a lot of questions at the end there surrounding meta as well. We did do a Q and A and I think there's a lot of value just in that last section which I didn't really talk about in our introductory section here. So make sure that you don't miss any Tier 11 lives, head on over to tiereleven.com YouTube or visit any of our social channels and make sure that you do follow us. You'll get a notification. Turn on your notifications. When we do go live, sometimes we do change the times, but that type of content is the type of content that I think you're really wanting here. A mixture of very high strategic stuff which we do some of the other shows that we've done the last few weeks with very tactical things like what Cameron was talking about on this week's show. So let us know if you enjoy that, especially comment on Spotify. We're seeing a lot of growth, a lot of new listeners coming in on Spotify really appreciate that it's a great place to leave a rating and a review. Especially a review. A five star rating would be very nice. However, we'd love to know what you think about these shows, highly tactical in nature and whether or not you'd like us to do more of them. So for all the resources that we mentioned here on today's show, head on over to perpetualtraffic.com and on behalf of my amazing co host who is not here today, Lauren E. Petrulo. Until next show. See ya. You've been listening to Perpetual Traffic.