← Perpetual Traffic
Loading summary
Transcript135 lines
- [00:00]
A
Are you a beauty brand but you think you're late to the Black Friday Cyber Monday party? Well, even though we've been advocating planning your Black Friday Cyber Monday for months now. In fact, the co host of this show advocates you should start this planning all the way back on Memorial Day. Well, even though it's in and around Labor Day, it's not too late because we have put together a webinar for you late to the party. Especially you beauty brands who who need to get your act together and get a good Black Friday Cyber Monday campaign planned and ready to convert. Black Friday and Cyber Monday are the most competitive moments of the year for beauty brands and the right creative is how you win. So we are putting together a free webinar on September 9th at 10:00am Pacific 1:00pm Eastern where we're going to be talking through the angle styles and hooks that are actually selling this season, not the trends we're going to see that are oversaturated and cliched macro creative trends that will shape your Q4 creative ads and get them to actually convert holiday hooks that can be shaped to your brand to own the feed and stop the scroll. And last but not least, you'll walk away with a quick start checklist so you can apply these learnings to your beauty brand in under seven days so it is not too late. Ladies and gentlemen, head on over to tier11.com bfcm and register today. This is the most important week of your entire year so you cannot afford to miss this webinar. It's the most competitive moment of the year for beauty brands and the right creative is how you win. And we'll show you exactly how to do that on this webinar. So head on over to tier11.combFCM to register to reserve your spot today.
- [01:49]
B
The future of all business, all entrepreneurial endeavors isn't going to be tech based. Tech became ubiquitous. ChatGPT is free for everybody listening that has the Tim Ferriss four hour work work dream. It's gone. All the things that we used to be able to do to build a business and flip it just got automated.
- [02:05]
A
Marketing is obviously as integral to any startup. Any new business, how are you going to actually get it off the ground?
- [02:12]
B
I built the number one ranked Google Ads agency in the world and what I found.
- [02:17]
A
You'Re listening to Perpetual Traffic. Hello and welcome to the Perpetual Traffic Podcast. This is your host Ralph burns, founder and CEO of Tier 11 alongside my amazing co host Lauren E. Petrulo, founder of Mongoose Media.
- [02:36]
C
Yeah they were going to say too.
- [02:37]
A
She hesitated there because I didn't know she hesitated there.
- [02:41]
C
I did.
- [02:43]
A
I know. Well, you're the now co host. Let me make sure you understand this. So you're the present co host. The old as in a previous, not old because he's still the previous co host of Professional Traffic is on today's show. That's how this works. So ladies and gentlemen, Kasum lovers from all around the world, Kassim is back on Perpetual Traffic. Welcome back to, you know, a three year journey that as we said on the pre record, you'll, you'll never get that time back. Completely lost. But we're glad to have you back here on the show. Hopefully you're not suffering from PT ptsd. So notice how I put that one in there.
- [03:32]
B
So anyway, jokes.
- [03:33]
A
Welcome back. Qasim Oslam.
- [03:35]
B
I'm so glad to be here. I love you both and I'm excited to chat today. Hello listeners.
- [03:40]
A
Hello, hello. They're gonna be like, what am I listening to? An old episode. What's going on here? So you guys were both. It's kind of cool because this is sort of a full circle moment for me because you're coming back on Custom as a former co host. Lauren is now the co host but you both started as guests and so you're really kind of coming back on as a guest. So it's a very weird kind of amalgamation of all kinds of different titles and retitles. I guess I'm the only constant with this whole thing whether or not that's a good thing or a bad thing. Let the audience determine that. But in that vein we're going to be talking about some forward thinking ideas that I know has been on your mind. Custom has certainly been on my mind and I know it's been on your mind, Lauren, of like what is coming in this digital marketing landscape. And I actually thought like you had kind of retired from the digital marketing world, Kassem, like whatever. Before we get into today's show, which is really is all about sort of the future of digital marketing and also the autopsy of digital marketing, tell folks what you've been doing since you left Perpetual traffic.
- [04:49]
B
Yeah, I build businesses. So I started an incubator. It's funny because I don't really know what an incubator is. I've never been to a real incubator on red light in the city of San Francisco. I can't spell Y combinator.
- [05:01]
A
I think I saw one when I was in elementary school with like little chicks.
- [05:05]
B
Yeah, that's that's what I started. I started it. A chicken farm, Right? That could go a couple of ways. Pause for Lauren's joke.
- [05:12]
A
Pause for Lauren's joke. Chick. Chick joke. Oh, she missed it.
- [05:15]
B
She missed it.
- [05:17]
C
I was like, there could have been a. That's like two pg. Like, oh, chick incubator. Okay. If this were fairy, maybe that would make more sense. Kidding, of course.
- [05:27]
B
Ah, that was a good joke. That's good. Shout out to Perry Belcher. So I. I've. I've built a collection of things that I'm actually really proud of. I built a staffing agency. I own AEO CO. We're cracking the code on answerengines. I own seedoil.com with Joe Polish. Syndications.com is a real estate platform. So I, I did what Hormozi did, just poorly and with much, much less money. I. I took my. My little exit nugget and I'm like, I'm going to go do a bunch of different things. And so I've got a small portfolio of 17 businesses at the moment, and.
- [06:00]
C
I'll run my portfolio of 17 businesses. Pause.
- [06:04]
B
Well, small in terms of gross revenue. Right. Like, I'm not doing 100 million a year gross rev. But they're all, they're all profitable. You know, they're not. Like, I don't own 17 domain names that I call businesses. I've got seven. And I'm just, I'm trying to crack the code. I really like that I'm good at. Somebody said I'm good at having babies. I'm not good at raising them. I know for a fact if I could focus on one business, that's the path to billions of dollars. And I really like starting new things. So I've just let myself be the infant that I am, and I put myself in a position where I get to do that. And that's been so much fun. I just get to. I'm surrounded by a bunch of people we meet every Friday for my incubator. We talk about what's on the horizon. And then I'm doing a bunch of random, like, I'm buying a septic company because I'm going to have the largest septic company in the American Southwest. Just watch. Would you just, like, kind of.
- [06:56]
C
So you're talking about business models?
- [06:58]
B
Yeah, well, I was talking about a phenomenal business model that's massively antiquated. Yeah, that's. That's. I'm pretty excited about that.
- [07:06]
A
Ripe for consolidation. I remember having that conversation with Perry Belcher in the pool in Cancun as I recall. And I was like, you know what, he's actually right. Anyway, very interesting.
- [07:16]
C
As a former poop containment expert, I very much approve of this septic tank investment.
- [07:23]
B
Is that just you saying you're constipated or.
- [07:25]
C
No, I have a swim diaper company for babies and swimsuit diapers don't contain urine because the child will sink. They just contain poop. So I was like, I dubbed myself a poop containment expert but now I can pass the onto you as soon.
- [07:40]
A
As you've and someone who required not to dominate through. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well I, I, I feel, you know, that that industry is akin to my experience because I wade through just pools of crap twice a week doing this show. So anyway, so today is not going to be one of those days. It's going to be absolute gold.
- [08:01]
B
Yeah.
- [08:01]
A
Now that we know what you've been doing with your life and your quasi retirement. But it's almost like you're away from digital marketing but you're still kind of in it. I remember you said like I'm going to retire from digital. I'm like I'm sick of this agency stuff. But you're still kind of back in it really because marketing is obviously is integral to any startup, any new business. How are you going to actually get it off the ground? How are you going to get your message in front of people and ultimately sell your stuff?
- [08:25]
B
Can I give you my thesis?
- [08:26]
A
By all means. That's why you're on the show.
- [08:28]
B
I'm going to. I'm lobbing a grenade, but I actually think it's a good one. Here's the experience I had for, for anybody who's listening that doesn't know me, I built the number one ranked Google Ads agency in the world. When I sold, I had $100 million in ad spend under management. I got to see 30 thousands of business models, thousands of business models. And what I found was as often as not traffic cost more than cost of goods, cost of service, fulfillment, opex, sometimes combined. Which means E commerce is easy to pick on because it's the most, it's the most visible of all business models I think in terms of the numbers. And so for E commerce businesses I would watch as an E comm business would spend more money on traffic than they would spend on the cost of the materials they were selling, the cost of fulfillment, those materials, the cost of the customer service, their operating expenses combined traffic would cost more than all that traffic would almost always be more than their net profit. So you're paying Meta$20 for the thing you're making$19 on or less. Which means you work for Meta or you work for Google or you work for Amazon, you work for the traffic store. So my thesis in building these businesses, and I'm not telling you this is a good thesis for everybody by the way. I'm in the luxury starting fresh from how am I going to capture the opportunity. But my thesis is I will not start a business if I don't know where the traffic's coming from first. And so I look for pre existing pools of traffic that are being underserved or not served at all. So I don't care about the idea. Everybody, everybody in business wants the next big idea. They're like, oh, we've got the next big mousetrap, the next big thing. We cracked this code. I don't care. That means you have to go create a new market. You're not an entrepreneur, you're an inventor. I want a pool of people being massively underserved.
- [10:08]
A
Yeah.
- [10:08]
B
And now I can show up and just look like an absolute total rock star. So that's my business building thesis. And so far it's, you know, it's working out pretty well.
- [10:17]
A
That makes a lot of sense to me actually. And we talked about this a couple of shows back, Lauren actually about like what we would do if we had to start all over. And I always start with the question whether it's a business. And we used an example of a business who were sort of assisting myself and my social media, marketing and email person on staff here at year 11 is taking a business from literally like maybe five figures a month in sales. I'm not exactly sure exactly where they stand, set that aside. But it's like the operative question is what's working right now? And there's usually something that's working. If you have a business where somebody is actually buying your stuff.
- [10:55]
B
Right.
- [10:56]
A
That's proof of concept that what you actually have, the world wants to, maybe not the entire world, but a subset of people want it. And I find the most logical and quite honestly simple and simplistic question is what are you doing right right now? And if we can figure that out, there's usually something and it's like just do more of that. And most business owners don't do that and I don't know why. And we've used lots of examples of how we've been able to do that here on the show. But your thesis is very much in alignment with like path of least resistance. Hey, if YouTube ads are working for you right now. Hey, you know, you have an influencer who was doing something for you and you made 15 sales. You're like, why are you not doing that anymore? Like, no, I'm over on my social media now because that's important. Somebody said that TikTok was important and now I have to figure out meta ads. I'm like, wait a second, you've got this thing over here that actually worked. Why don't you just go do more of that? Double down on that thing. People don't want that because they want the shiny object. They want the new thing. They want. Oh, my God. I heard on perpetual traffic, AI is now the thing I need to bring in ChatGPT. I need to build a chatbot. But no, you have this one thing that's working, that's driving a modicum of business that if you leverage it, you can then turn it into a larger business, which means increased influence and hopefully scale. Same general theory or different. What are your.
- [12:22]
B
So it's. Here's what I think people just to. First of all, I double click on everything you just said. I absolutely agree. This is the way I visualize it is if you think of any bell curve.
- [12:32]
A
I miss your old expressions, by the way, period, full stop. Because of you. Double click, double click.
- [12:40]
B
I'm bringing them all back, man. This is nostalgia episode.
- [12:42]
A
I know. By the way, if you say that on Siri, it actually puts the period, period, then full stop after. So it's like, it doesn't really work on Siri.
- [12:49]
B
But anyway, no, that's. That's why I can't be replaced by AI. If you think about any bell curve, here's what people do. And again, because I spent so much of other people's money, I saw this happen. The bell curve. The apex of the bell curve is in the center. And so what people will do is they'll build advertising mechanisms until they reach the apex of return. So I'm building an advertising mechanism and I put a dollar in and I get $3 out, then I get $5 out, then I get $10 out. And let's say that's the apex, right? So, like that's the most, the highest, the perfect that that ad campaign is going to perform. And then as I spend more and more and more and more, 10 drops to nine drops to eight. And what they do is they back up because they're like, oh, we're losing efficiency.
- [13:28]
A
I want the days of 10.
- [13:30]
B
Yeah. So. But I say something yesterday that was absolutely, absolutely brilliant. He goes Diminishing returns are still returns. So here's what they're doing is if you picture a bell curve in your mind, they're, they're building the first half and then they're stopping at the apex when there's a whole second half, which is literally by definition, by mathematical definition, double. You've identified the ability to double your business just doing more of what you're doing, but you're not willing to do it because it's a diminished return. Still a return, but a diminished return. And those diminished returns are the things that interestingly buy you the Runway and the additional cash flow. And in order to pad the coffers, have more money, invest, grow, iterate. So we get really romantic about things like margin and they're like, oh, I'm in 40% margin. If I spend this way, I'm going to drop to 30% margin. And it's like, wait a minute, you mean you're going to spend money and make more money? Do that. You know what I mean? And like you're saying, ralph, do it all the way until you're no longer make. And then go figure out the new thing. The other thing that people do is they realize like, oh, in meta, I'm getting a 1 to 10 return. So then they go to Google and they try to get their 1 to 10 return and it's like, dude, they're two different things.
- [14:46]
A
Completely different things.
- [14:47]
B
They're two entirely different mechanisms. So meta may have a better return, but maybe Google has more longevity or more predictability or, you know, easier off on lever, who knows what, right? So every mechanism, one needs to be seen all the way through to the end of the bell curve. Two needs to be treated as though it's unique because massive surprise, it is. And it's not just unique to the mechanism, it's unique to the business. So I, you know, I have a professional services business that does really, really, really, really well with paid partnerships with influencers. But then I have a call it a pseudo SaaS business that looks the same from the outside looking in, but fails miserably with that same mechanism. And so just because you're, you know, something works with one offer doesn't mean it's going to work with the other. Like you have to kind of go back to the drawing board each individual time. And it's so funny to see entrepreneurs turn into automatons, dude.
- [15:42]
A
Yeah.
- [15:42]
B
And it happens with success, not failure. It's the successful entrepreneurs that hit these ceilings because they have these weird commitments to things like arbitrary margins or the way that things have been done.
- [15:53]
A
Right. I completely agree. There's an example we've used here before and it's probably apocryphal, but the point is, is that we had a customer that was making a 40% net on a million revenue. Like they're making. All right, I'm getting a 40 margin. Like I'm getting a 10x ROAS. This is an old example, let's say, because we were using roas, not mer, which we'll talk about here on today's show. It's like, all right, so let's do the math. You're making 400k, you know, after everything, net net off a million, it's like, yeah, that's great. 40%. Like, well, I like, let's start to scale. And so all of a sudden 40 started going down to 39, 38, 37, 36, 35. And he's like, wait a second, hold on. When I got to 35, it's like, we're at 1.5 now. He's like, I'm at 35, it's not 40%. I'm like, well, we could scale you to 5 million at a 20% net. Have your net and what do we have left over? We have a million dollars we've doubled, if not 120 million.
- [16:52]
B
More than 400,000 is more than 400,000.
- [16:56]
C
That's going to have a stronger exit that you've built into equity.
- [16:59]
B
That's such a powerful point. It's such a powerful point.
- [17:02]
A
So I refer to this as the law of inverse profitability. And we see it everywhere. We've got a whole video series. I'll leave links in the show, notes on it. Because this is really, really important and this is, this is part of the reason, like maybe a prelude to what we'll really be talking about here today is like just mindset of businesses double down on the stuff that's working first off and take a step back. That's why going to conferences and hanging out with other people, talking to other entrepreneurs is so important. Secondly, do the math in your head because you can't expect. Like I remember the days when we were making 40% net at tier 11. Those days are gone. Sorry. They're never coming back. Like my CFO thinks they will at some point, but they probably won't in our industry and the way that things are today. I'm okay with that, but I do want to be profitable. But a million dollar business at 40% net and a 10 million business at 20% net. I've, you know, let's do that math. That's practically quadrupling your net profitability, and you're still at a much lower margin. But business owners always went along for those days of two years ago, I was getting X amount of return on my Facebook ads, and now I'm not. Well, that's. We live in today. Get over it.
- [18:17]
C
The thing is, you said something about meeting people. Sorry, guys, I'm cutting up. But like, when Ralph was talking about meeting people in person at conferences and talking to the people, like people that go to the conferences are the doers. I think one of the traps that people are falling into where they're like, what you're talking about is that apex and then when you hit the curve is they're listening to TikTok or seeing something on YouTube of someone who's making more money from the video than from actually doing the things. And I hear all the time, well, I should switch and go to Google because this TikToker said it worked or because this video did and they have 60 seconds to determine if the numbers that they provided are legit while they're seeing just the tip of the iceberg of the real story. Because someone who could make a million dollars on a launch could have spent $1.2 million behind the scenes and they netted negative money. But that doesn't show up.
- [19:05]
B
Yeah, it's. Well, it's all these idiots running around saying, Hermosi made $105 million in a day. No, he did not. He made $105 million in seven years.
- [19:14]
A
Yeah, it was.
- [19:15]
B
He cashed in on the.
- [19:16]
C
The.
- [19:16]
B
The most potent repository of brand equity I've ever seen built by any human in. In the digital sphere. He gave and he gave and he gave and he gave, and he did it 50 times a day for seven years. And then seven years. In seven years, he said, hey, I have this thing. And then. And then people gave back. And that was the point that you were making earlier, Lauren, that I don't think Ralph and I paid enough credence to, which is, as you're scaling up and you're losing, let's say, net profitability, you're also gaining market share, customers, diversification of client base, brand authority, visibility. And these are things that are, and I'm going to use a word that is often dismissed, but I'd like people to kind of just pay attention to it. They're incalculable in their value. They're incalculable in their value, meaning you actually cannot calculate the value of those things. And you know that when the shit hits the fan. But you still have a really strong reputation or you still have clients that are standing behind you and beside you in ways that aren't necessarily even logical, or you still have referral partners sending things your way. Like there are things that you can't put on a spreadsheet that you can't factor into your funnel, that you can't optimize. They're incalculable in their value. And business owners don't do enough to really lean into those incalculable things because they're incalculable. So we, we almost treat them like they don't exist. We treat goodwill like it doesn't exist.
- [20:40]
A
Right?
- [20:40]
B
It's maybe one of the most important economic drivers, but not on the stretch. But it's not. How can you, how can you calculate goodwill? But man, when somebody, there are a couple of brands where it just does not matter to me what it costs, how long it takes if they're out of interviews, if they make a mistake. USA is a really good example. I've been a USA customer since I was. My mom's whole family's military. So we got to, we got to. I didn't serve, but I got to be in this umbrella because USA is only for people that have been in the military. And it's, it's the most amazing company I've ever been exposed to. They're more expensive by far incidentally. But I have, all my insurance is under USA and I would kill and die to continue to stay there regardless of costs. That's an incalculable value to usa, but they've earned that from me. And I just don't feel like we're, I don't know why that conversation isn't had more like there's ways to build businesses and brands that just aren't as sterile, you know, like, and that really creates something impossible to fight against.
- [21:41]
C
It's possible that people, because we have like these legacy brands. So USA has been around for decades and we think of like the JP Morgan banks and like all of these like generational companies where I feel like in the last 20 years it's, how might we build a company, flip it and sell it, like in this like flip model. It's just such a low commitment to the long term value of a company. And at least in the US we don't have this whole bid to pass on our companies to our children. Both of you have kids. Do either of you expect your companies to be inherited and run by the next generation of your family.
- [22:14]
B
I don't expect my children to work.
- [22:16]
A
Hey, you know, when I was first a consultant actually doing the stuff that we're doing right now in Tier 11, one of the first tools that I learned how to use was from a company called Unbounce and they are now a sponsor of Perpetual Traffic. And the reason is, is that their landing pages and how quickly they're you can create those landing pages without having to consult your designer, your developer. With Drag and Drop Builders now built in AI copywriting, it's even better than when it was 10 years ago when I first started using it on my own to create my very first landing pages. These guys are absolutely amazing. They've got conversion optimized templates giving you everything you need to launch your pages on your own without developers. In fact, Unbounce is the leading landing page platform for building, testing and optimizing high converting pages powered by data from over 2 billion conversions. That is 2 billion conversions with a B. That means they know what converts. So if you want to convert more customers one platform and launch pages fast, Unbounce is offering PT listeners a special offer. They are giving you the PT listeners 10% off when you enter coupon code PT10OFF over at unbounce.com forward/pt so head on over to unbounds.com PT, enter code PT10OFF and cash in. Today convert more customers to one platform, launch pages fast. You shouldn't have to wait for your designers and your developers to build and test your landing pages. Get started with Unbounce today.
- [23:52]
B
I don't think my children are 8 and 10. I think when my children are of working age, which let's say is 25 ish, I think the productive endeavor will have been commoditized to a degree that makes that type of vocational emphasis and focus superfluous to the human endeavor. Naval Rabican said something to the effect I'm going to paraphrase poorly, but I think I'll get it. He said, if you want to be happy, find something worth doing for the sake of itself. And I think that's what we're all going to have to do in 20 years, let's say, but you also another really good point. This flip mentality we've gotten into, which I'm guilty of and maybe a proponent of and maybe in a small way helped to proliferate all the things that we used to be able to do to build a business and flip it just got automated. All of this surface level Bullshit. All of the. I'm going to spin up a landing page. Automated. I'm going to spin up some ads, automated. I'm going to spin up a funnel, I'm going to spin up automation, I'm going to spin up email, nurture. All of that is automated. So everything that we used to do that could provide that could eke out a little bit of money and a little bit of EBITDA just got automated. I did it. That's dead. That's the autopsy. It's dead. All of the crap, all of the garbage, all of the worthless. I'm, I won't drop a name, but I'm one of those influencers going to sell you a weekend course and teach you how to make billions of dollars as I shoot you a video at my San Diego beach house in front of my Ferrari. That's all dead. And it's not dead because it's worthless. It's dead because it's ubiquitous. It's still a value to have a landing page, to have automation, to have follow up, but I can just prompt it now. My son, my 10 year old son, I bought my boys Chromebooks and I told him you can only use these for two reasons. One, to learn AI, two, to build your brand. And I, I come Back to my 10 year old son asked ChatGPT how do I code a video game. And within about two hours he'd use ChatGPT in, in order to create the old Oregon Trail first shooter game. It blew my mind. My son, I swear to God, my, my 10 year old can do that. You want to tell me he can't build an automation, build a funnel, build a follow up, all that's gone, which means the quick flip business is gone. The only thing left are the things machine can't do. If you want to, the word scalable should be a curse word.
- [25:53]
A
Do what doesn't scale.
- [25:54]
B
Do the thing that doesn't allow AI to just take it and run with it. Find the unpaved roads like do the things, talk to people, answer your phones, reach out to customers, have customer success representatives like do the things that don't scale. And that's how you build a business of quote incalculable value. The future of not just marketing, the future of all business, all entrepreneurial endeavors isn't going to be tech based. Tech became ubiquitous, not worthless. Ubiquitous AI. ChatGPT is free. It's free. Claude is free. Like all these things are free. I can build whole business. I can and I have. If you've studied Vibe coding At all. I watched my business partner Yvonne create things that I swear to God would be about $200,000 for an MVP. He does it in a couple of hours. He created a matching tool for our agency. He's. He's created these amazing lead magnets. He created a business valuation tool and he does it in a couple of hours. It's the death of SaaS. All things that can be automated are dead. That doesn't mean that the productive endeavor is dead. It means that you have to find the things that aren't automatable. But it's the incalculable value. Right. It's like building brand loyalty and loving on people and trying to find a way to come to customers and let them know, like, hey, I'm a. And honestly, Ralph, I'll pander here a little bit, dude. I think that's why you've weathered every fricking storm. Every storm I've ever seen in the marketing space. Tier 11 has always found its way to kind of just stay above water because you do the things that are incalculably valuable. People always have a human being to talk to. You're not going to like try to put them behind a dashboard. You're always actually investing in the education necessary. You invest in the infrastructure, you train your people. I know how much money you spend on continuing education. Like those things. That's incalculable, the value. But it's important, it's critical. And so for everybody listening, that has the Tim Ferriss four hour work, work dream. It's gone. It's gone. You know, maybe there's a couple of years of arbitrage, but stop that. Everything from here on out, I'll tell you what it's going to look and smell like. It's going to look and smell a lot. Like really hard work.
- [27:59]
A
Damn. Damn.
- [28:00]
B
It sucks. You know, but. But that's what we've got. That's what we're. That's what we have left with. And y', all, I'm leaning into it. I'm literally buying a shit shoveling company. My. The thing I'm most excited about is shoveling human feces around. The first this Phidia city of Phoenix and then the greater Southwest, like. And you want to talk about the worst job with the hardest amount of work and labor and out in the sun, you know what happens to when it's in the sun? You know what I mean? Like, I'm getting into septic. I love that. Because you want to know why nobody else will do it?
- [28:35]
A
Yeah.
- [28:35]
B
So what an opportunity.
- [28:36]
A
That is so funny. So we were talking about yesterday, actually two days ago, we have this new. I'll paraphrase a lot of this, but basically not getting into all the details, but this new process that we want for outreach, which is something that's very, very challenging to do. There's no real way of automating it. There's a lot of automation tools. Everyone wants to automate it because it's a lot of gritty work. It's a lot of, like, hand crafting, as Brian Chesney once said when he. When he. When he started Airbnb. The point is, is like, we have our consultant which consults us on this. And I said, all this is just so hard. And he reiterated back to me the things that I always sort of tell my team. He's like, dude, you know what you're doing right now? You're creating a moat because you're doing all the stuff that nobody wants to do. You're shoveling the shit that no one else wants to shovel. And if you can figure that out in your business, it's like you've got an insanely competitive advantage. And then you handcraft everything, you know, one shovel at a time, document the process, and then maybe, if you're lucky, figure out a way to automate it, but you probably still won't, because there's always going to be that human element in there, because it's, in our case, it's a lot of personalization, it's a lot of outreach, a lot of face to face. It's interactions between, like, not a bot, between two humans. And that's really where business is. I think the competitive advantage in business still is, yes, we're using all the other tools.
- [30:08]
B
Of course we are.
- [30:08]
A
But it's all that stuff that no one else wants to do. If you can figure that out in your business, it's going to suck right now, but it'll give you an amazing competitive advantage later. And it just. It was just one more lesson. It was like I was hearing my own words coming back to me in a strange sort of way. I'm like, you know what? You're right. And so then I relay that to my team, and they're all frustrated because they have to do all this handcrafted, you know, manual stuff. But I'm like, this is how you start it, because nobody else wants to do it because it's hard.
- [30:38]
C
Was that famous expression, do things now that others won't, so that later you can do things that others can't. Like, that's always been true. And I would say it's arguably more true. I remember flying to San Diego and the woman next to me quit her job as a nurse. She was an emergency room nurse making six figures a year. And she was just like, I'm tired. I don't want this job anymore. And she's getting to the real estate industry because she's like, I can travel when the way I want to. I can live the lifestyle I see others doing on Instagram. In my head, I was like, I think real estate agents work harder than anyone. They're always on call. But it's this shift of people leaving jobs with, like, health care and in a space where some jobs don't exist anymore. And it's like, because I want, I want, I deserve, or I feel entitled to an easier life. So I think right now you are both absolutely true that anyone that's willing to put in the hard work, that's willing to see the diminishing returns. I mean, I'm with Dice right now, and he was talking at Founders Board how, like, the current status is that people aren't obsessing about growth. You said scaling should be a curse word. It should be a bad word in the sense of, like, you're just trying to survive. If you're breaking even, you're still at a chance where you've built a company, you've got people that are employed, you're maintaining, and like you said, they're incalculable costs that you can maybe return. You say they're incalculable now, but in five, 10 years or whenever you want to actually sell or pass this on, there's going to be some investment individual who's going to put a calculative cost on that.
- [32:09]
A
Yeah, Hormozi is a great example of that. Like, all you have to look, because people that watch this and listen to this show are probably Hormozi fans to a certain degree. And we talk about them a fair amount because it's a great proxy, but it's like he built up all that incalculable goodwill, which then he cashed in on. Well, cashed in on it a couple of times.
- [32:27]
B
He still has the goodwill.
- [32:29]
A
He still has the goodwill.
- [32:30]
B
You get to a point Apple got here many times over. Tesla had a chance at it, I think. But you get to a point to where you're almost your own. I'm going to stretch this analogy so hard. I'm sorry, but you're almost your own Federal Reserve. You get to print more Money now, you know, like, you're not, you're not cashing. It's no longer a check that you cash in the, in the. And the deposits have run dry. You're like cashing in on the interest of your goodwill. You know, it's this trust that continues to build. Apple users can't, won't even fathom switching devices. It's just kind of this, this thing that's, it's not even the beginning of a question, you know, like, and there are, there are other businesses that have done that, and incidentally, you don't have to be Apple to do that, but there are people. When I was a kid, I sold long distance at a call center. It was a horrible job. It was the equivalent of a sweatshop.
- [33:22]
A
I sold timeshares for a summer.
- [33:24]
B
So, yeah, just so bad. When I was calling, the thing that was really interesting is most long distance back in the day was sold by independent local reps. I mean, and a lot of these old people that I was calling were sold by their, they're independent reps. And there were people that weren't committed to AT&T, but they were committed to their local rep. And I think we can, man, I think we can find our way back there quick. You know, when the whole world has a trillion dollar supercomputer at their fingertips, the only key differentiator between everybody else and you might be that you're willing to come show up at my house or my office and talk to me about the damn thing.
- [34:01]
A
Yeah.
- [34:01]
B
You know, and I, I really think that's worth leaning into.
- [34:04]
A
Absolutely. I was just on a phone, like on the Apple example, just to the extreme, like, because I'm an Apple person through and through, because I switched over about 10 years ago and I'm like, oh my God, I will never, ever go back to a PC. So I got on the phone with like our entire podcast team, Lewis as well. Like, everybody was on there and the Apple business team, and I'm just like, we laid out like what we needed and I'm just like, tell me what I should buy. He's like, you need to buy this. I was like, I thought I needed to buy two of the things, but he's like, just buy this thing. When I ended up buying it, it was the most I've ever spent on a laptop ever. My EA saw the receipt come through. She's like, ralph, is this a misprint? Yeah, like, flagged it as fraud. She's like texting me, she's like, is this okay? Like, Apple Just charged you this much money. It was like almost a five figure purchase. The point is, is I was like, there was no way I was going anywhere else. I'm like, I'm Apple. I already told the guy, it's like, this is the easiest sell you ever made. Just tell me what to buy. I just want to make sure that my team is on here to make sure we're buying the right thing. And they know that, lo and behold, it's the best thing I've ever bought.
- [35:18]
B
Well, and that's the other thing too, is, you know, I remember at my son's, I took my boys to London and they were fighting over the phone to take pictures and accidentally crack the screen. They dropped his phone and cracked the screen. I'm in London. I don't know where my Airbnb is. I have access to nothing. My phone is my only. All of our luggage is in a luggage storage place that I can't find because I don't have my maps.
- [35:36]
A
You don't have your phone? Oh, my God.
- [35:38]
B
And I'm like, I have these two little boys in the middle of the city. I don't know. I have no idea. We were at the zoo.
- [35:42]
A
We walked to the zoo.
- [35:43]
B
So I can walk back to the train station. I don't even know what stop I started at. I don't know how to get back on the train.
- [35:48]
A
It's all on your phone.
- [35:50]
B
So I like ask around and thank God I find this Apple store and I walk in and at first I thought I needed to buy a new phone, so I bought a phone. And then they were like, no, we can fix your phone. And then they fixed my phone and. And then they refunded the phone I bought without any questions. And they paid for the screen because I had some care. I forgot I paid for. And it all happened in like, I don't know, dude, 90 minutes. Like, me and my kids went and got, you know, crumpets and tea. And then we came back and it was, it was done and I was refunded. And they were so kind and helpful and it was like they just earned this place by doing these things that are calculable in their value. Like, that was never go anywhere else.
- [36:31]
C
They didn't make a dollar a pound off of you, but all of that work was done back so that you're now sharing that story in perpetuity. And I think a lot of that's like, we don't do anymore. We are just so, like you said, so hyper focused on the margin that in the past, when I think of. Granted, I just watched Gilded Age. Like, you think about all these beautiful structures where people invested into the aesthetic of the building. When people invested into the Christmas party or the holiday party for their team, when people would have pension plans for the employees. Like, all these things that cut into the margin, but built a brand and built a loyal customer base that would see you through these different times. And I just. As we're talking about, like, the biggest thing I think people are doing right now that can help you, wherever you are, is to meet people in person. I mean, you have these relationships with ChatGPT, right? People are using ChatGPT for therapy and relationship stuff, but you can't replay relationships in person. Exactly.
- [37:27]
B
It was a Harvard Business Review article. The second Highest use of ChatGPT is therapeutic, is companion.
- [37:33]
C
I think the first one was fact checking. Casa Muslim. No.
- [37:39]
A
How to pronounce.
- [37:40]
B
That's so funny.
- [37:42]
A
Yeah, yeah. CHAT GPT says it's Cassim, by the way. Just.
- [37:46]
B
Yeah.
- [37:46]
A
Just telling you.
- [37:47]
B
I know.
- [37:48]
A
I don't know if we gave a tactical hack here by any stretch, but. But I believe you are holding a conference where this discussion will be delved into deeper. And I hate when people say, well, those are soft concepts, Ralph, because, you know, you guys need to do more tactics. We do plenty of tactics on this show, bucko. All right? The point is, is like this. I'm just saying, bucko, just in general, because, I don't know, I'm talking older.
- [38:17]
B
You're finesse.
- [38:17]
A
I'm getting older, cousin from Boston. Let me tell you that, pal. This is how it fucking works, dude. You're doing a conference somewhere sometime. Me and Lauren are going to be there on a round table, and I think it's pretty high value.
- [38:33]
B
If that's not enough. So Ralph and Lauren will be there.
- [38:35]
A
I don't know what is. And you're going to be there.
- [38:38]
C
You don't want to come hang out with all three of us?
- [38:40]
A
All three?
- [38:41]
B
The band that's back together, pictures of all three of us. We'll have a special surprise. You got to get a selfie with me, Lauren and Ralph, the perpetual traffic trio.
- [38:51]
A
All right. Okay.
- [38:53]
B
So we'll throw that Easter egg hunt.
- [38:54]
A
We'll throw that. Is there really going to be an Easter egg hunt? That wouldn't surprise me, actually.
- [38:59]
B
That's where the Easter eggs. That's the.
- [39:01]
A
That's. That's it.
- [39:02]
C
We have the VIP booth for anyone that is vip. You'll have your highest likelihood of running into us. The last time all three of us were together, was at a conference that no longer exists. And so now we get to reunite in the conference that is replacing traffic conversions, 10x funnel, hacking live, and I'm sure a whole dozen others that people used to go to that no longer do because they're not investing in goodwill.
- [39:30]
A
Like those no longer do.
- [39:33]
C
Don't care. Like the net margin wasn't there and they abandoned what the goodwill that came from those conferences are and now there's a new one in place.
- [39:40]
A
Very good point. You know, that's how we're bringing this all together here today. Excellent point. Lauren Ippetrillo, MBA so when is this conference? And by the way, I'm going to throw in an extra bonus at the end of the bonus. So when is it? Tell us about it. It's pitch time.
- [39:58]
B
Yeah, pitch time. So it's September 22nd through 24th. It's three days. Day one is focused on what we call the autopsy. We're looking back at traditional business the way it's been run for the last 20 years and showing people why it doesn't work. Day two is the reconstruction and day three is the deployment. This is going to be actionable. It's hardcore heavy hitting. When you go to the website, you can see the thought leaders that we have. They're truly the best and brightest in the world, you two included. And I'd love for everybody who's listening to be there.
- [40:26]
A
Yeah. Well, you can sign up over@perpetualtraffic.com growth. That's perpetualtraffic.com growth. And the extra bonus, whether or not you think it's a bonus or not, anybody who signs up through that link will get a selfie with me, QM and Lauren. How about that?
- [40:49]
B
That's a huge bonus.
- [40:50]
A
We and both, all of us will sign your phone. How about that?
- [40:54]
B
Yeah, I'll sign your.
- [40:55]
C
Only if it's an Apple.
- [40:58]
B
We bring a release.
- [41:01]
A
Anyway. We're going to be there. We can't wait. And it's an all star crew. Check it out over@perpetual traffic.com forward slash, gross selfies included as well. Qasem Aslam, if this is just a hint of what's going to be talked about at that show, I'm even more excited than I ever was to see you and Lauren live. And it's been way too long. And by the way, in person, conferences are exactly what we're talking about here. Like that's really where a lot of this stuff happens. The best ideas, the best relationships, the best business deals. I'VE ever made are in person and usually at events. Same so same, I think, with all of you guys. So we're huge believers in it.
- [41:46]
C
Well, I'm, like, legit excited about this conference because if we weren't having the opportunity to speak, like, I wanted to go, because the people I know that are attending, people I know who bought tickets and people I know that are speaking, the people you sit next to at the events, like, you're talking about some of the greatest deals. Like, there is even so much value that even if you don't know some of the speakers or you do know all the speakers, the speakers are doers, but the people sitting next to you are also doers. So you end up learning more not just from what you're hearing on stage, but what you're learning from other people that are sitting next to you. So, like, I. I legit was ready to buy this ticket, and I was like, I want to be at this conference because the people I know that are attending are the actual doers. And it's not, forgive me, to anyone who's listening that falls into this category. A lot of times I see the same speakers at conferences that are speaking on the same subject that I've already seen Philosophy 3, 4 years at other conferences. But at the same time, those other conferences no longer exist. So, like, in all, like, full transparency or whatever. What's that word you use? Like, I'm actually interested in this conference. It's in San Diego, so it's a really nice place to be, period, full stop. So, like, I'm actually excited, Kasim, that you guys have put this together. Not stop.
- [42:57]
B
I appreciate you, Lauren Petrulo. Thanks for having me on. I'll see all the growth hacking. I'm so, so excited.
- [43:03]
A
Yeah, perpetual traffic.com forward, slash growth. Make sure that you go over there, sign up. Can't wait to see you in September. So, Kasem Aslam, dude, it's been an honor and a privilege to have you back on.
- [43:18]
B
Stop it.
- [43:19]
A
Stop it. I've noticed you have more books in your background, by the way.
- [43:22]
B
Well, I've got 3,000 books in this home.
- [43:24]
A
3,000 books and a new blue shirt. So he's going away from the black shirt. You just got to go to see, like, what you're going to wear. Yeah, and I can't wait to see that. Like, you have a stylus. You have a $20 stylist now. It's like, man, you're splurging. Living large wherever you listen to podcasts, make sure that you do leave us a rating review. We get this show out to more folks like yourself and learn how to do this shit the right way. So on behalf of my amazing co host, Lauren e Petrulo, ciao. Peace till next show. See ya.
- [43:58]
C
You've been listening to Perpetual Traffic.