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- [00:02]
Ralph Burns
Do you feel like you could have done so much better in 2024? Do you feel like you left so much money on the table? Or maybe your internal team or your agency just wasn't getting it done for you? You were maybe the one that was coming up with all the ideas and then they were doing the implementation. That is not how it's supposed to work. If you're the boss, your internal team or your agency is supposed to direct you and tell you what to do to scale and grow your brand, let me tell you, you are not alone. This is the number one complaint we hear from potential prospect clients who want to work with us potentially. They say their agency or their internal teams have run out of steam and they're the ones who are giving them all the ideas. Well, that's the reason why we put together a very special offer for you for 11 lucky businesses. And quite honestly, ever since we announced this promotion just or four days ago, we've already filled up five of them. We have six of these left. And the reason we're only giving away 11 with 6 left is because my internal team, I have to give them some time off in December and we want to get this done for you before the end of the year. So much so, in fact, my sales team has actually opened up more time to book these calls with you, the business owner, with you, the director of marketing, you, the person that's frustrated with the results that you got in 2024 and you feel like you can do better in the coming year. Well, we are offering 11. Well, now six, because we've already given away five of them. Free business audits for six lucky businesses. And this is not an audit that's done by AI. It is done by actual humans, where they go in and they actually look at your entire business, not just your ad accounts. They look at your tracking, they look at your after the click, they analyze your emails, they analyze all of your ad accounts, everything that you're doing within your business. And we figure out where the holes are. And usually there are plenty of holes and areas of improvement. Yeah, you need an unbiased, unprejudiced viewpoint on how you're going to hit your goals in 2025. And that's what this business audit is for. So if you are interested in being one of the lucky six remaining, there was 11. Now there's six remaining businesses who qualify for this business audit. Head on over to tier11.com2025, fill out the application and we'd love to see how we can help you scale and grow. And oh by the way, you will also get first Mover access to the Tier 11 data suite, which we haven't even launched to the world yet and we'll be doing so in January, so you'll get early access to that. One of the greatest things about the Tier 11 data suite is you know, all those unattributeds, all those unknowns, all those directs inside your Google Analytics, or if you're using Triple Whale or if you're using Hiros, well, this lifts the veil on all of those. Up to 99% of your unattributed and your unknowns in your direct are now going to be known in the knowns that are going into individual channels. Your Google, your meta, your organic, your email. Those are more accurate. That's how great datasuite is. It lifts the veil finally, for data tracking unlike anything we've ever seen, because it uses three martech tools pieced together with an integration that we wrote here at tier 11. And you will get early bird access to that as well. When you fill out the application over at tier11.com forward/2025. Make 2025 the best year yet. Start by planning it right now. Book a call with our team today, fill out the application and let us help you scale smarter, not harder, in the coming year. Hey folks, Ralph here with something that could seriously upgrade your Top of Funnel ad game. If you've been a PT listener for any period of time, you know that we talk about Top of Funnel all the time and how challenging it is for you to get quality Top of Funnel clients or leads or customers and then convert them typically at bottom of Funnel. Well, TV advertising is one of those areas that we haven't discussed here on PT all that much. But our friends over at Ad Critter have figured this stuff out. They do connected TV ads so you can be everywhere without SPE spending millions on super bowl ads. But they pair it with display retargeting so you're hitting the audiences with a complete approach. You reach them, then you remind them and then you collect the revenue. It's a strategy designed to deliver and let me tell you, it really works. We're testing this at tier 11 and so far the results have been very impressive. Now with AdCritter, creating custom audiences are so easy. You don't need to reformat files, you don't need to mess around with complex spreadsheets. You just upload any file in any format and you're ready to go. And the match Rate is awesome. They make it easy to connect with the right people, the actual people that have interacted with your ads in the past and then allow them to naturally flow through your funnel so you can convert them at bottom of funnel. Now the folks at Adcrator, we twisted their arm to get us a great deal for you, the PT listener. They are offering a special deal for y'all and that is you can get a $500 campaign credit, meaning $500 in free money to test out the plaque platform or dollar for dollar matching on any TV campaign up to five grand. Imagine the impact of that match. Spend five grand, they'll add another five grand in display. That's a huge opportunity here. Now it's only offered to you, the PT listener. Head over to AdCritter.com PT and check it out. Hello and welcome to the Perpetual Traffic Podcast. This is your host Ralph Burns and The founder and CEO of Tier 11. And today's show. In line with our month of case studies, today is one of the ones that I think you're going to find particularly interesting because this is a problem that perplexes. I just want to use the word perplex in a podcast. A lot of business owners, a lot of people even like billion dollar businesses. And we refer to this in today's show a bit. This is taken from our tier 11 lives that we do every single Friday with myself, John Moran. We also have other special guests that are on there as well, but this one is all about YouTube really and how you use YouTube because it is a blind, in many cases, no click. It is a blind channel. When you're looking at all of your channels together, this is one of the ones that usually looks the worst. So how do you scale, how do you leverage YouTube especially versus TV? Like how do you measure the attribution of a Super bowl commercial which John talks about here? How do you measure the attribution of YouTube videos that you might be doing at top of Funnel where there's no click? In this particular case study, we actually do have a click because they're really, really good ads. The point is there is a lot that you can do here, but it is a multi step approach and today's episode is super tactical. So I'm going to warn you right now, if you are out walking the dog or you're at the gym, this might be a little challenging for you to follow along with. There's so much happening here. Like how to use YouTube is not an easy thing and fortunately John has been studying this and testing this for years now. We finally figured out the way to crack the code on YouTube, especially how to measure it using multichannel attribution using third party softwares. Obviously our preferred choice is wicked reports, especially for, you know, small and mid sized businesses. In this one, in this client we use Northbeam. So Northbeam is also a really good software, really good attribution, especially at a much higher level, much at sort of an enterprise level, it's a little bit more expensive. But either way, like these guys, even though they do model some of their data, it's not the actual click in many cases it's a solid software. So the same principles apply here as to how we figure out which channel is pulling where. And we've talked many, many times about marketing performance indicators, we've talked about wicked reports, how we now use that. And we also use that with our data warehouse and our blot out, which we call our tier 11 data suite, which has an integration between all three. So it really does eliminate a lot of the unknowns, like 90% plus of the unknowns and the unattributed, but it does not track no click. So oftentimes when you're running YouTube ads, like I said, they're going to look like the worst performing channel, especially if you have a channel breakdown and you're using one of these softwares. In this case, like I said, we're using Northbeam. They have a very good interface that shows shows exactly which channel is doing what. You know, Wicked reports, in my opinion, a better option for a lot of the businesses that listen to this show here. The point is that if you're measuring all those different channels, you need to know like which one is pulling for you. And YouTube is really challenging to figure out. So I would highly encourage you to go over to our YouTube channel. Listen to this. If you're trying to crack the code on YouTube. This is one of the best episodes I think we've ever done on this. So head over to professionaltraffic.com YouTube. You can also check these out on our Friday Tier 11 lives. They're 2:30pm Eastern Time every Friday. Sometimes we do need to change them based on our travel schedules and family lives and all that sort of stuff. So that is a great resource for you. But check this out on professionaltraffic.com YouTube. If you do not subscribe to our channel, make sure that you subscribe to it. It's growing like a weed right now, which is great because these types of things are really challenging to state in an audio format. I try to do my best to do that, but remember when we were doing this live, it was really more of a screen share. So use the two of them. And like I said, if you're struggling with YouTube, this is the episode for you. So one of the things that John does talk about here is how to actually test for videos like which ones actually work. And in this case, this client actually has a very good creative department, so they're providing those videos for us. We also provide a solution in case you don't have those, which is one of the things that he talks about. It's like, hey, I'm in surgery and my scalpel isn't even made yet and I can't even start surgery. If you don't have the video assets to be able to leverage YouTube, there are some resources which we mentioned here. Obviously tier 11 has those resources as well. One of the big things that we also saw with this is that Meta and Google were really not even YouTube but Google itself. The last click we were getting on this client is primarily a different demographic than what we were seeing on Meta. So looking at your data, analyzing your data, like who is actually buying your demographic data will then allow you to dial in your targeting, but also dial in your avatar, dial in your messaging, your ideal customer profile, the types of people that are actually buying the stuff from you. So super important there. There's a lot of learnings and in so doing you might need to change your messaging and your demographic 100%. And John explains exactly how you use that data and graphically how to figure out how to do that. Now one of the big things here is using post purchase surveys. So we've had a number of folks that have come on this show talking about the importance of post purchase surveys. The one that we like the most, sort of the cadillac of all post purchase surveys is Shopper approved. We've had D.J. and his team on here, so definitely check them out, but no Commerce with a K. Kommerce is also a very good source and there's a lot of them that you can get. Especially for Shopify, you can get plugins and so forth, but Shopper Approved is the one that we really like. They also do reputation management, but the decision on which post purchase survey to use is totally up to you. So I think that is another component to this that led John to figure out what to look for. So you're combining post purchase surveys. If you don't know what they are, we'll leave links in the show notes for that obviously as well as reading the data, reading the tea leaves inside the attribution software. So he also does a strategy here called the one day spike. So this is a great way to test YouTube. So he talks super fast. So this is why I'm reiterating a lot of these points here for you to sort of hone in on the one day spike testing methodology. Which you do the one day spike for YouTube and you figure out what comes out on the other end and it's an easier way for you to sort of figure out what creative and if the channel is actually pulling for you. Because typically what you'll see in a lot of your in channel metrics is that performance max which basically scoops up all the bottom of funnel. The easiest conversions, gets all the credit and YouTube gets screwed. And that's not the way to look at things. You have to look at this as a holistic all channels working together in true media mix modeling fashion in order to derive the end results. So without further ado, let's get into today's episode once again. You're going to want to watch this over@perpetualtraffic.com YouTube. Today's show is a long one and then there's a lot of Q and A at the end too, which I think for all you Google and meta people and even agency folks, definitely stay tuned to the very end of today's show. So take it away John and Ralph, you're listening to Perpetual Traffic.
- [14:25]
John Moran
Today. We're going to be counteracting a bit of the narrative through some testing, but I wanted to explain the importance of a YouTube strategy. Yeah, and we talk about YouTube, we discuss all things Google Meta, but YouTube inside of funnel development as to how it pertains to the sales of an overall product and the efficacy of how good that YouTube campaign is can really increase the entire funnel all the way down to is your product selling on Amazon and how is it doing there? So I have a client that we actually just kind of go through waiting for the third party attribution software that will not name my name on this call because it's not wicked to be to be shared. Just waiting for it to wait for it to load. Wait, there we go. Now it's pulling up. I think this is technical difficulty.
- [15:15]
Ralph Burns
This is a question we like a lot of businesses get. You're on sales calls now. I'm on sales calls, I'm usually on the discovery call. And then we're like yeah, let's bring in John kind of thing. But nobody really knows how to integrate YouTube into their overall marketing mix. And one of my best friends online and actually in person, we met online, but now we're actual real friends, is runs a YouTube agency, only that's all they ever do. And he's now finding that big advertisers, like one of the ones that we're talking to this week, huge TV advertisers aren't even touching YouTube. Like, yeah, you can think of the one, the billion dollar one that we're talking to this week or actually sending a proposal to this week. The point is it's like they have a TV strategy. They don't have a YouTube strategy at all. So what he's. It's crazy he's finding is that his target audience is actually his TV advertisers getting them to YouTube because they have no clue how to do it. So there's.
- [16:20]
John Moran
What do you mean getting the TV advertisers to. Oh, like opening up new channels.
- [16:24]
Ralph Burns
Like our main channel for demand general, our main channel for awareness of our product is TV advertising. And. But we don't know how to transition that to YouTube. So he's finding that those people who really aren't online marketers, they're kind of more traditional, older school, not necessarily old school because that necessarily isn't the case in all, all cases. We know one case where they got tremendous amount of tv. They obviously do digital marketing as well. But people don't really know how to use YouTube within the context of their overall strategy.
- [17:00]
John Moran
Yeah.
- [17:01]
Ralph Burns
So I think today's conversation, not to blame them. It's hard.
- [17:06]
John Moran
Yeah. Well, it's also people, I think also goes back to measurement. YouTube is something that doesn't. It works like meta in terms of creative, but it's much different in terms of how you measure it and what you look at when it goes good versus when it goes bad. One of the things that we've. I'll go through just kind of a use case for this, for this client here and I like using examples. So this is a company that sells a product you probably all have seen and it's a pet hair rake. Now this is something that you've probably seen the videos where it's like people that are scraping the carpet and all the hair comes up and that kind of stuff. It's. You get your carpet looks fine and then you use this little miniature microscopic rake and all of a sudden all the hair comes out of your carpet and it's oh my God, I didn't realize that I had a whole nother dog stuck in my carpet. It Basically like it's a really amazing, cool product. But then there's another product that is a new product that's a kit. And this kit is essentially nothing more than a vacuum cleaner with clippers stuck to it. It's amazing. It's lightweight, super powerful, all the good stuff, like easy to clean. Pick your unique selling proposition insert here like it's an awesome, awesome, awesome product. The what we didn't truly understand was when we didn't do a target demographic or an avatar development, we stumbled upon it and we exacerbated it very, very well on accident. And I truly mean like on accident because we're, we're trying to back into, okay, what sort of identifications can we use inside of YouTube to say, Aha, this is what is working. That is, this is what is not working. And one of the funniest accidental things that we did, and you probably can't tell here, but you can maybe see it. This is an elderly woman's hand. And elderly women apparently are our perfect demographic. Women of the ages of 55 and over. If you have to groom your dog, you don't want to go out there with scissors or clippers and try to hold a big dog. This thing, it in the video shows how this thing, you know, sucks up the dog hair as it clips it and it's mess free and all the other stuff. So we started to say, okay, well I don't know why these rounds of ads are working so well. And this is a couple of weeks ago. We're like looking at, things are starting to really hum in YouTube like it's starting to work well. We've tried 20 different videos. We found out the ones that are kind of working that, that are still on right now. And it's these three videos are working well and we'll go through optimizations. But I want to kind of get to the big aha. A few AHAs. That is standard operating procedure now instead of, instead of, instead of YouTube. But when you look at the audiences inside of YouTube and you see what's, what's clicking and what's converting, you can kind of see the trend here. Now this is the exact opposite of meta. Exact opposite. Meta shows 25 to 34 as our top line and 65 plus is very, very little. When you look at the clicks and conversion rates between 55 and 64 where you have those clicks and those conversions, those clicks, those conversions, more interest in 65 plus, the amount of conversions, better conversion rate on 55 plus and then it falls off a cliff heading the opposite direction. So we started to accidentally identify the more of the older female demographic and then use that person in the ad where it's now you have the, the older hand that's a little bit more or not as, as, as strong to pick up 100 pound dog and put them in a bed of a truck, go take them to the groomers or some of that. It's easy and can be done from home. So our ad copy changing from a younger TikTok style to an older ease of use massively change this thing to a point where we even said okay this is working, let's bump this on the 25th. Let's go and take our cost on these people and go from $50 up to $350. Let's scale the impressions from 3,000 up to 23,000. Let's do a bump and on the 25th on that day we saw a couple of things that were interesting and this is where people fail. This was one of our best days we ever had. Kept the same myrrh, 28% increase in spend, 32% increase in revenue. So our CAC and our MER stayed the same. Facebook ads did better. Amazon did better. YouTube we spiked up 300%. Looked like it quote unquote failed. But then since we're running performance max tada a 4x course there, right? Yeah, exactly. But then what was interesting is after that day on the 25th, the 26th and 27th, now all of a sudden YouTube is like woo, now that's doing 100% better and things are shifting, shifting back. Our first click is looking really terrible on YouTube but our multi touch is looking. Sorry, our first click is. Our first touch is looking good. Our multi touch is bad. So it was like self learning and then started to introduce timeline because we're looking at this on a cash basis. So as soon as this blipped up here, the next few days looked amazing. The guttural reaction from people that are that from this increase in ad spend and we tested and going from 3,000 views to 16,000 of a really good target demographic. Everything over the board, everything everywhere else was great. Wrapped it back down and then everything got worse. Like I mean it was clear as day. The only thing that didn't measure well or look like it had any sort of impact was YouTube.
- [22:03]
Ralph Burns
Right.
- [22:04]
John Moran
YouTube did the exact opposite.
- [22:05]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, exactly, because we crack up.
- [22:08]
John Moran
YouTube. YouTube looked worse, right? YouTube looked really terrible. And then we ramped down YouTube and YouTube's. Oh yeah, that was me doing all that. I finally can attribute it two to three days later. But the biggest source of truth was that you can see how much money we're spending here on YouTube compared to, let's say Meta and 15K. This went from a 4% post purchase survey day.
- [22:29]
Ralph Burns
Right. I'm looking at this 26.
- [22:31]
John Moran
Okay.
- [22:31]
Ralph Burns
By day.
- [22:32]
John Moran
This is two days here. Yep. But what was interesting is on this day that we spiked it up on the 25th and we said, okay, how'd this do that? That brought all of the good lift and everything was really, really good when we spiked up the YouTube ad spend on that day compared to the day before. Our post purchase survey said 4% of all of the sales of that kit came from YouTube. The 25th, 16% of all of the sales of that kit that day said that they found out about us through YouTube. And those are the only ones that we can track that didn't go to Amazon, which is 30 of 57,000. Wow. So we spiked up YouTube post purchase survey so went from 4% to 16% even though we're only spending about 10%. So now the post purchase survey ratios of people who are buying from us from YouTube are vastly outpacing the amount of money that we're spending on YouTube compared to Meta. Post purchase survey was a really good indicator. Post purchase saver also is at random. So the answers are always jumbled. It's not just YouTube number one. You have to make sure that YouTube is sometimes first, then seventh, then ninth and then sometimes gone and whatever it is. So we using good testing and post purchase survey. But that was my first indicator was if I spike this up and people come in recency bias if also first click is accurate. So say that I found you on YouTube and that that worked. So like, okay, so we found the right ad copy obviously to the right audience. That when we spike it up, even though YouTube looks like it did the worst in terms of media efficiency ratio, it brought a whole bunch of new customers or new visits to the site.
- [24:02]
Ralph Burns
Yeah.
- [24:03]
John Moran
So our ECPNV on YouTube was better than Google and better than Facebook. Subsequent days of measurement should show that after the 25th, the 26th and 27th here.
- [24:15]
Ralph Burns
So you did a one day spike and then nothing after that. Just one day just to test this in essence.
- [24:21]
John Moran
Yeah.
- [24:21]
Ralph Burns
Okay, got it.
- [24:23]
John Moran
Because we already had 4%, 5% of everyone saying, yeah, we found out about you on, on YouTube. When we introduced YouTube, it did actually have a good top line result. And then let me get to the correct.
- [24:34]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, there's Google. Just like Google search.
- [24:39]
John Moran
No, pretty much Meta Google is. It's running PMAX now. Okay, yeah, PMAX is. That's what's funny is as soon as we started spiking up on YouTube, you get like, PMAX all prox. Like, yeah, I'm doing much better. And then PMAX kits, I can spend 14% less to make 42% more conversion value. And I hit a 500 ROAS. I'm like, okay, cool. Well, performance max is all of a sudden just going really, really good out of nowhere. I wonder why. Did you know that all of these people googling your brand are now googling it much, much more often in these. In these days? Yes, of course, because you spike up YouTube and uproot clean makes $2,000, which is a 285% increase than the prior two days. Wow. Shocker. So when you look at you spike up YouTube the following two days performance max is. Look at these five 600% roases from your brand that came out of nowhere at 285 increase the last two days. For fun.
- [25:28]
Ralph Burns
And if you were the average marketer, you just say spe on your performance max.
- [25:32]
John Moran
Exactly. And YouTube didn't really work. Look, we spent 138% more and we lost 10%.
- [25:38]
Ralph Burns
All right, so I got to take a step back here. So you figured out one last thing.
- [25:43]
John Moran
I will.
- [25:44]
Ralph Burns
I won't summarize one last branch in your John 10 quite yet, but I'm ready.
- [25:48]
John Moran
Not yet. But last but not least, you look at this here and say, is this strategy working? Yes. I mean, going all the way back to March 1st, because we launched YouTube a few weeks ago at a level like you can clearly see this one product that is the only thing we're marketing on YouTube in Performance Max. Boop. Just reached new levels of new heights. So that's why people suck at YouTube is because it's extremely difficult to measure trends. I'll stop there.
- [26:17]
Ralph Burns
All right, so if you were to do this with a new brand, it's like you had some YouTube that was running for this just to begin with.
- [26:27]
John Moran
On a different product on a $12 item, not a $200 item.
- [26:31]
Ralph Burns
Okay, so maybe just let's deconstruct that, I guess. Like, how do you determine in order to get to the level where you're like, all right, I can do a test of this spiking up my spend on a particular platform, YouTube we're talking about here. How do you get to the point where you have a better than average or a high degree of certainty that the test is actually going to be accurate. What are the steps that you sort of take? Because everyone's like, all right, well I'm running some YouTube videos, I suppose, or I don't really know what I should be running to begin with. Like how do you kind of start there?
- [27:07]
John Moran
Let me do this, I have to refresh, which let me just re change Google back to what I need it to look like.
- [27:15]
Ralph Burns
And these results are very, very cool. So you're obviously you're spending more on YouTube I have to assume as of.
- [27:22]
John Moran
Yeah, we went from 300 up to 600 and now it's at 1200, all in the last three weeks.
- [27:26]
Ralph Burns
That's great.
- [27:26]
John Moran
Per day. It's great. So what we did here is we started on a journey that will tell us how lean and mean and accurate can this be. So inside of here you'll see the conversions, the views. This is just a YouTube targeting strategy. And you can see you got some conversions here, but you don't really see, you know, a lot of scale or anything or a lot of, a lot of spiking up. You also see no kind of lower levels of efficiency, which is 1.08, not bad, just not really good tracked ROAS, which is fine. So as I back down all of these metrics here, this is the cost. So the cost is only about 300 a day. And you can see the cost was at 300 a day basically since June 4th all the way out to July 29th. So you're testing this for a while. The reason why we're testing this here is we're trying to identify what other sources of truth can we look at to say aha, we think this is actually making an impact and then we start to level it up. What did our post purchase survey say when we went from 200 to 300 a day, then 3 to 400 and then 4 to 600. This showed that the post purchase survey went from like non existent, like 1 or 2% all the way up to like 6% of all the sales. And I was like, okay, it's about 6% of all the ad spend and our CAC was not increased. Excellent. So higher volume, flat CAC and post purchase survey is kind of trending around the percentiles of our total sales compared to Meta for example. And Google still kind of non existent. No one really says, oh, you do get. A couple of people are like, I search for this but because this is a unique and a product that has not really been introduced to the marketplace, there wasn't existing search traffic for so you have to generate, generate demand awareness.
- [29:11]
Ralph Burns
Top funnel, all that.
- [29:12]
John Moran
Yep. So then when we started to see and we're just doing ad testing, so we're doing like three to four new videos every one to two weeks. Sometimes it's week over week, sometimes I get a batch of eight videos I test over two week periods. So whenever they can get it to me is when I'll start to do testing. And the first thing that we look at is the percentage served is meta or sorry, does Google like this? Which means is Google serving that ad often? And you can see the percentage served which is here. So that's a column I use and say in the last 14 days if I show all the ads that were on at that time, you can see okay, this was on. But the percentage served was three. So it's okay. Google is ignoring that video and ignoring that video. They're not showing the majority of the video. So shut them off. It's not going to work. We need new ad copy. So there's now the three videos that are on. And then I say okay, are people engaging with the ad? They're watching it to 20% of them on these videos are watching three quarters of the video. And that's 30 to 53 seconds. Good. We have good engagement, good percentage served click. The rates are fantastic at 1.1 0.7 and 0.95. Google optimizes of anything over 0.55. You see these were not 0.55 which is what Google didn't really care about. So you say okay, Google and YouTube like the videos percentage serve is high, the click through rates are high. The people are watching the videos, are working well, checking ECPNB. These are actually beating new customer visits from YouTube, beating Meta, which is insane because who clicks on YouTube ads? Practically no one. Which means our CPMs are lower, which means our quality is higher. I'm gaining about the same amount of click traffic as I am from Meta. It's attributing less, but it influences more because more people watch YouTube videos that don't click but still like the product versus people that would click on meta when they do like the product. So I know that those variations are okay, but I'm looking at $1.43 first touch versus 203 on Facebook. Excellent. Like I' I'm getting a whole bunch of good quality cold traffic that when I earned that click is just as or even better quality than what's coming from meta. Because they're watching YouTube videos, I'm interrupting their day just like a Feed. Excellent. So those are all the things that we get to look at first. Is, is this quality now on all these.
- [31:16]
Ralph Burns
Right. All these ads right here, equal impression share, like equal impressions. Does YouTube actually really split tests? Yeah.
- [31:24]
John Moran
And that's where you'll see the percentage served. So basically it says if I have a hundred thousand people, you get 41%, 31% and 22%.
- [31:31]
Ralph Burns
Okay. But overall you've got. How many ads did you initially?
- [31:35]
John Moran
Three.
- [31:35]
Ralph Burns
Just three?
- [31:36]
John Moran
Oh, 20.
- [31:37]
Ralph Burns
20. So when you were doing that round of like, all right, which ones are actually the ones that are going to resonate with the audience was YouTube.
- [31:44]
John Moran
I do five at a time.
- [31:45]
Ralph Burns
Five at a time.
- [31:46]
John Moran
Pick the top three.
- [31:47]
Ralph Burns
Okay, got it. Makes sense.
- [31:49]
John Moran
Now here's the thing is because the attribution, like why would you keep a 27 and not shut off the 9? Look at the 150. 100 versus 256 cost per conversion. This here, for example, when you see that you have good watch engagement. This is pretty, pretty good. In line 19, 18, 16. Okay, that's good. This is 14, 12, 12. Like they're engaging. Are they clicking on this one and buying. That's all that this tells me here. But what if I watch that first and then click on the second, click on the third. What if I watch that first click on the second, click on that third. And now we're looking at L1, L2, L3, or prospecting and then engagement and remarketing. All this is, is Google is picking its own mini funnel. They call them sequencing. So it picks its own sequencing. And that's what's telling me what is in the sequence. Something that's getting 2% of the percentage serve is not in the sequence. So just because the CPAs aren't low does not mean that Google is not using that as one of the three videos to warm up and educate an audience. They're just not clicking yet. Right. So don't get rid of it if it's serving.
- [32:49]
Ralph Burns
So I guess my question is, how did you narrow it down to these three?
- [32:54]
John Moran
Those three. If Google likes it, I will run it.
- [32:57]
Ralph Burns
Got it. Okay.
- [32:59]
John Moran
And what usually happens is when you upload five, you get one, sometimes two. This found three. Excellent. That's perfect. If there's three videos being rotated in perpetuity to cold traffic, that's a mini funnel right there, basically.
- [33:10]
Ralph Burns
So it is really a split test. Like we had this conversation late last night about Facebook. Facebook. Just if you're doing cbo, you just. It just didn't put one Ad set. Like it just picks one video and that's it. And it's not necessarily your best one. It's arbitrary.
- [33:23]
John Moran
Right.
- [33:23]
Ralph Burns
So this is a true split test.
- [33:25]
John Moran
One that I found so far.
- [33:26]
Ralph Burns
Best one that I've found. This is.
- [33:27]
John Moran
Yeah, this is a true split test. Yeah, it really is. And that's what people, they, they sort of work against the algorithm because they, it's really arbitrary to say, take five videos and throw it in one ad set and cross your fingers. But that's kind of how Google likes to work. But it will work the magic for you by saying, hey, these people are engaging, they are clicking, they are watching. And I will then say, Ralph needs to see ad132, John needs to see ads3, 2, 1. Barry needs to see ads1, 2, 3. Like it will, it will adjust the sequencing that it needs. That it's. And where people most often fail is they'll take this one and pause it. And now it's got to try to do what it did before with only 66% of the ads that you left on. It's gonna, it's gonna interrupt things. So if I say, okay, I think this is working well, let's spike up, spend what happens post purchase, survey, what else happens inside of. Inside of the overall ecosystem. If YouTube is working, we should see a lift everywhere. It's almost like an incremental test. But I like incremental tests. Not by shutting off and seeing how much volume I can reduce to prove it. My volume test is. Or my incremental test is scale. Because if you do an incremental test or if you do a holdout test, all you do is lose volume. Just prove that marketing works. But marketing works at scale is much harder than I'd say. I told you that ad was doing something. So my test is always scale. If it's working, I should push it.
- [34:44]
Ralph Burns
Well, at a really simplistic level, though, if you looked at this, if you went into this and you said, okay, well, I'm trying to find the ad that actually works. Well, technically it's AD 11 as the one that's working. But you're saying, don't shut off your top three. Like, how do you figure out it's going to be your top three? Is it. Is there some sort of threshold that they have to have based upon watch time?
- [35:08]
John Moran
That is your ultimate North Star right there. Percentage, okay?
- [35:11]
Ralph Burns
Percentage surge. So anything below 20 or so, you're like, it's not. Well, it's not resonating.
- [35:19]
John Moran
You want them to be sort of equal to each other. If you have 10 ads and they all have 10%, those 10 great ads.
- [35:25]
Ralph Burns
Oh okay. Because they're going from one to the other, the other to the other. I see. So it's not necessarily.
- [35:30]
John Moran
If you have 10 ads and eight are at 12% and the other two have 0.1, they're dead. You have to replace.
- [35:37]
Ralph Burns
That's how you decide.
- [35:39]
John Moran
So you'll see this percentage served. This one's got 108 cost per conversion but this one's shown more.
- [35:44]
Ralph Burns
Right.
- [35:44]
John Moran
So we won't be able to tell did people just have to see this one more often and they were seeing this one secondary and it converted well then this one Google is going to start to ignore and now in a week from now this may go from 22 down to zero.
- [35:58]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, great.
- [35:59]
John Moran
Then these two are the only ads that are working. Right.
- [36:01]
Ralph Burns
So you shut off and I got to replace number 13 just because of the data is telling you that.
- [36:05]
John Moran
So yeah, if Google isn't pushing it then it's probably not working. Now here's the other thing though that's extremely important is the bidding strategy will reflect what this will show. So during this whole time period that I've been testing this, what I've been doing is going from a manual CPV to changing it over to a conversion based bidding strategy. I did maximize conversion value. Then once I made it to at least a one, I stuck it on a TRO as of one and once it was at a T row as of one or above. That's when I was like okay, now double the spend and boop, it'll spend it. So the TR if it can find users at 100% and can scale after you've picked the right audience with the right ad copy with what that Google likes that actually is resonating verified by CAC and also confirmed by post purchase survey. We're in a great position now because a 1x return on YouTube of pretty much clicks Damn. Like that is.
- [37:00]
Ralph Burns
That's impressive.
- [37:01]
John Moran
The other thing too that. Yeah. The other thing you could do is even if you, if you have a third party software tool you can go and say well show me all the converting paths in this last 28 days that I know are from the platform of let's just say YouTube ads and then say okay, if this is actually working, I should see a lot of attributed first click conversions. If it's working because it is cold traffic, I can scale it. Post purchase surveys does everything's lining up so far because we did the hard Work of giving it enough time, testing enough audiences, testing enough creative and testing enough demographics to then say, okay, we should actually be able to get this thing to scale. And my first initial thing to look at to say can I double this budget and can I triple the budget was did I see this? And I did. You did. Beautiful. That is a really good, nice first click. And that first click is showing too that this person has to click twice and three times and two times to come back direct. Five times here. Okay, good. Like fine. Like I'm, I'm seeing my singular clicks are 38, 38, 84. Perfect. Good stuff. So that's a. When you can get a troas to lock in and scale, you are a home run. The problem is it takes sometimes two months of really good testing. Yeah, some of my best scales inside of YouTube were running dormant for upwards of six months. Then you just crank it up because YouTube is like inbound search only it's harder. Which means it takes the same amount of data for YouTube to optimize as it does inbound search. But it needs those off of click attributed so you can have a large impact in your company and be really good position because of YouTube. But YouTube doesn't know it yet because you got a whole bunch of engaged view conversions in Google. I still don't even attach a G clip to these people yet. I have no idea who they are.
- [38:45]
Ralph Burns
Right.
- [38:45]
John Moran
So it's still not seeing it quite yet. It has some good learning, but it's not as good as click attributed. So it takes 20 click attributed conversions in Google search. I don't know if you do that in a day instead of YouTube way. 10 times, 15 times the aspen of inbound search and probably 10 times longer for the same end result. But you have to give it a lot of time. It has to percolate because as you get those clicks in, attribution is learning more and more and more. And more. So that would say, hey, go ahead and just triple the budget. So you got it boss. And it does that. But those those thresholds are percentage served. Collector rates are important. Watch rates out to 75%, 75% are important. Click attributed conversions in your audiences are important. Let that influence your, your video creative so that you're targeting the right market. Even though it's different than meta, it doesn't matter. Google's sometimes different audiences, YouTube's different audiences. But I found an audience that I'm going to, I'm gonna leverage. And so those are things important. And then when I scaled it up YouTube looked the worst. But everything that stole conversions like Amazon and pmax looked amazing. And my top line held. So let's push it. And now, now this. Last week we doubled the budget. We'll see what happens.
- [39:51]
Ralph Burns
What post purchase survey tool do you use on this one? Do you remember?
- [39:57]
John Moran
I don't know. I just asked the client, I was like, hey, what does it say? This week he's, here's what the numbers are. I'm like, excellent. Best tracking. I'll have to find out what it is.
- [40:06]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, we should actually, because we have a lot of friends in that industry actually, believe it or not. And I'm always sort of like, which.
- [40:13]
John Moran
We do or we don't.
- [40:13]
Ralph Burns
We do actually.
- [40:14]
John Moran
Well, I have access to the apps in the back end. Let me just look.
- [40:18]
Ralph Burns
That'll be interesting to know because I mean, you're using that as one more metric. I mean, a lot of times, like I think in previous YouTube lives that we've done here, we've talked about don't rely on in app metrics. Well, in this case you're getting your cues from the in app metrics. You're not using the in app metrics as your source of truth. But you are.
- [40:40]
John Moran
No, it's broken clock that trends. Right, Right.
- [40:42]
Ralph Burns
You're following the breadcrumbs and Those are in AppMetrics, which in this case it took 15 videos. 15 different videos if I'm not mistaken. Sort of narrow it down, which is actually a really high percentage of success, believe it or not.
- [40:58]
John Moran
Yeah, it really is. Especially that you can scale up to twelve hundred dollars a day from three hundred bucks. What's funny is the back end of their first click attribution instead of Shopify says the last 30 days that YouTube brought me two new customers and zero returning. That's it.
- [41:12]
Ralph Burns
Right.
- [41:14]
John Moran
And that's what's funny too is that's, that's, that's, that's a huge thing in terms of like when you can rely. It's. Yeah, I can't rely in app, but I also can't rely on third party. Yeah. If I say, hey, what is the first click in last 30 days? It's oh yeah, YouTube brought, you know, two.
- [41:29]
Ralph Burns
Two.
- [41:29]
John Moran
Cool. Yeah, that's two. Like there's, there's. YouTube is not even on here. Yeah.
- [41:33]
Ralph Burns
Doesn't really help. I'm just curious. Are you. I know we've got a lot of questions here that we got to answer, but which we'll get to in a second. Thank you for.
- [41:41]
John Moran
And one last thing actually too. I Know, there's a whole bunch of things. This is the other part too is try testing non pdps. Like we made a mini website for this product. So this is what was interesting. YouTube to a PDP. Cool. But if you skip the landing page, you stop the selling. So this is what's interesting is if you take a. Take a YouTube video showcase demo. Really cool. If you got a small amount of attention, you gain interest. You stop the scroll, you stop the skip. I should say stop the skip. Earn the click. Yep. And then five reasons why it's perfect solution to seasonal shedding. And so now we're actually like selling. It's almost like a VSL without the beat. Yeah. This is stupid, but yeah.
- [42:23]
Ralph Burns
Is this your. Your is this. This is the page you're sending that. That YouTube traffic to if they actually do click?
- [42:31]
John Moran
Yeah, yeah. We tried the gifting angle and then the. The. The five kit seasonal. So we're. What's funny is if you say, oh, okay, well, I'm actually interested. Let's buy this. Actually, no, you gotta click on this one. Then you go to the pdp. Okay.
- [42:45]
Ralph Burns
Yeah.
- [42:46]
John Moran
So we all rows lead to the PDP so tracking doesn't get interrupted. We're just putting basically a splash page in front of it. That does a high sizzle.
- [42:54]
Ralph Burns
We could do a whole show just on that unto itself, but that's pretty cool. Now, on your Facebook spend, I noticed there's a fair amount of Facebook spend. Are you commingling assets between the two? This obviously works to cold traffic on YouTube. Why wouldn't it also work over on the Facebook side?
- [43:11]
John Moran
It's actually working less effectively on Facebook. Facebook is dragging us down from a media efficiency ratio.
- [43:16]
Ralph Burns
Yeah, no kidding. Okay.
- [43:18]
John Moran
I don't know why, but it's. I'm like, hey, can I scale up YouTube? They're like, well, not until we get meta in line. I'm not running the meta. I'm just running the YouTube video assets, is my question.
- [43:26]
Ralph Burns
Because it's.
- [43:27]
John Moran
Use the same video assets.
- [43:28]
Ralph Burns
Yeah.
- [43:28]
John Moran
The demographics are completely different though. That's what's weird is like my 65 is their 18. Like, it's weird. I don't know if it's just. I was like, man, we're seeing much better success than 65. He's. That is. I mean, the graphs do this inside of Google versus meta and demographic. So very interesting. Like, the ones that are perfectly working inside of YouTube to an old audience are not working to a young audience. Typically those are really blended. Like, very blended.
- [43:58]
Ralph Burns
That doesn't seem to make sense.
- [44:00]
John Moran
I know but you're not running, you're.
- [44:02]
Ralph Burns
Not running the Facebook side obviously in this particular case or the Madden side. So you don't really know which platform they're actually coming from. They might be like largely skewed towards Facebook instead of Instagram or. That doesn't seem to make sense to me. If you have some sort of level of success at an awareness level on YouTube it should translate over to the social platforms which are discovery platforms. They're not really looking for this stuff. You're doing this in a pre roll obviously you're getting them to not click skip. So that's interesting.
- [44:35]
John Moran
Yeah. And so that's what was interesting is like this same strategy executed on Meta. I mean it's working but it's giving us a 1.1 MER where on Google and just YouTube by itself. Everything we can track so far with unique landing page and everything is giving us about a 3.5 so really interesting. Now there is a lot of warm traffic in Meta though. So I think what Meta is doing is kind of cannibalizing the growth in on itself. They're really hurting for cold traffic. Like it's hard for them to get cold traffic. And so that's where I think like meta. If, If Meta and YouTube were both brand new ecosystems in this new strategy, I think it'd be different. But we're taking an old meta account and slapping new YouTube, new YouTube for a new product. So I think that Meta is just not being able to get the cold traffic like YouTube is.
- [45:20]
Ralph Burns
It's almost like they need a whole new ad account.
- [45:23]
John Moran
Yeah. Or Meta needs to actually listen to exclusions.
- [45:26]
Ralph Burns
Well they, we know they don't so.
- [45:28]
John Moran
Right. And they've been spending a hundred grand a month for two years now. But the new product launch is only being really successful on YouTube.
- [45:36]
Ralph Burns
I created a new meta account. We should get to some of these questions here because we're already 40 minutes into it.
- [45:42]
John Moran
Oh my God, I talked too much.
- [45:43]
Ralph Burns
No, no, this is great. We haven't really talked about like a cult. This is a. For those of you listening, this is a start to. I wouldn't even say finish but successful start to a level of success. YouTube strategy that came was basically non existent and it took. But it took you. How many, how many months now? I'm going to say six months, like.
- [46:06]
John Moran
Two to three months. Really?
- [46:07]
Ralph Burns
It was two to three months?
- [46:08]
John Moran
Yeah. For this, for this new product. Yeah, two to three months. But then it's now that's what's funny. It's two to three months of man can't get this to work. Let's try iterate, iterate, iterate, iterate, iterate, iterate.
- [46:20]
Ralph Burns
So even if you're John Moran, like to figure out YouTube, it's going to take you at least two to three months and you've got data.
- [46:27]
John Moran
I'm not the smartest person here. I'm just the one that spent the most amount of money, made the most amount of mistakes. That's what I always say.
- [46:33]
Ralph Burns
You're not doing the videos themselves like they have obviously creative that's being done for them, which is fine. The point is you're the one that's actually trying to figure it out. Like what message really works at the end of the day. And it takes two to three months to sort of figure that out. Best case scenario is yeah, now what's.
- [46:51]
John Moran
Nice is we didn't hemorrhage any cash from the time. We just didn't scale. So that's what was cool is we were like $200 a day successful, $300 a day successful, $600 a day successful. Now we're at 1200. So far so good. But it took 60 to 75 days to go through that process. I think a lot happens is like.
- [47:06]
Ralph Burns
You'Re looking at your NCAC. Is my NCAC all of a sudden expanding? My NCAC's staying the same. I still scale all of a sudden ncac. I'm seem to be getting more new customers coming in. Like you're doing it gradually, but you know, with a couple hundred dollars a day incrementally. But obviously there is a captive audience on YouTube that is largely cold, which is really a big takeaway from this. It's where can you find another blue ocean?
- [47:32]
John Moran
Me too.
- [47:32]
Ralph Burns
Yeah. I can think of so many clients right off the top of my head that like the next level of scale is YouTube. Yeah, a hundred percent.
- [47:39]
John Moran
And that's. And usually people though, they are their worst enemy. What's the Roas on YouTube? If you say that word Fire yourself, period. Or if your agency says that. Yeah, exactly. If you don't ever say those words, that's like saying what was the click attributed roas on the super bowl commercial.
- [47:54]
Ralph Burns
About to say the exact same thing. I think we've done too many of these together. This is like our seventh one.
- [48:01]
John Moran
I know, right?
- [48:01]
Ralph Burns
So time flies. Let's get to questions. All right, our turn. Hey, Romina, Great to be. Oh, real Romina's here. Hey, awesome.
- [48:11]
John Moran
Artur and Romina, thank you for coming on.
- [48:14]
Ralph Burns
It's funny. It's funny how some. Glad this is somebody that works at tier 11. It's funny how some clients forget we need inventory for ads. I think she was talking about, like, us selling the Tier 11 sweatshirts, which I guess now we have to send one to Romina anyway just because she showed up and said a funny question. Archer is a long time watcher. Hey, guys, I've learned a lot from you. What are the top three books you'd recommend for someone eager to dive deeper into the mindset of effective marketing? What are you currently reading? Oh, man, this is not even.
- [48:40]
John Moran
That is you, my good man.
- [48:42]
Ralph Burns
Me.
- [48:43]
John Moran
That question's all for you.
- [48:44]
Ralph Burns
Someone eager to dive deeper into the mindset of effective marketing. I would say get Robert Cialdini, Dr. Robert Gialdini's book called Influence. I would start there because that's about psychology, really, and mindset itself.
- [49:00]
John Moran
It's like 90% of marketing.
- [49:01]
Ralph Burns
It's 90% of marketing. And he is the guy who actually coined the phrase social proof.
- [49:06]
John Moran
That's my legacy. One day I'm going to make something that people are like. I'm going to create something people are going to resonate with and just use as a. Is like a just. That is a standard in the industry now. That's what I'm gonna try to do. One day I'm gonna figure out we're.
- [49:16]
Ralph Burns
Trying to do that actually with branding. John Tent. This is John Tent right here, by the way. Maybe that's it. Like, I need something. John Tent. John Tent. So anyway, I would go there. There are a lot of books that I would read, but I would say start with that one for sure. Artur. And if you haven't read, if you've read that one, I would go from. I would go to pre suasion, which is another great one. Thanks for CPO growth. Saying hello, hi, Texas, Aiden and Josh.
- [49:43]
John Moran
I know those. Take it ni Josh.
- [49:45]
Ralph Burns
All right. So, Amar. Hey, boys. Many of us experienced PPC guys want to leave freelance sites and start an agency. Can both of you share what you should do to kick in Apart from these platforms, where do we get clients? Real ones?
- [49:58]
John Moran
Yeah. If you want to be an agency, the first thing that I would say is look at the talent pool that you can hire quickly. Because a lot of people are like, okay, I'm an agency and now I need clients. No, no, no. You're an agency now. You need prospective people to work as employees or work with you. The largest thing. And this is a person I've been involved in five Agencies. In my. My entire life, I've been involved in five of them. Sold two, closed one. And so what I've learned is that sales does not cure all in an agency. Sales kills all in an agency that cannot fulfill the needs at the level that are up to your standards. That is a very, very, very, very difficult thing to say. Getting the clients is actually fairly easy. You just have to produce part of my French. A shit ton of case studies that says, like, I did that for that person. That's 90% of everything as long as your pricing is not stupid. But the problem is that when you get out of five clients and you have to take on more internal resources in order to perform at the same level or similar levels that you were at before, that's where the old agencies suck. Come in. Yeah, that. That's exactly what happens. And then you get people that are like, okay, I'm going to hire you. You're going to pass me off to a junior. They're not going to know what's going on. I'm going to fire you and repeat the process. Right. You probably have heard that if you're an agency, that is the mantra of the agency is because you can't farm out your brain power. So that part is the area that you really have to get over at the hurdle. And it's not cheap, it's not easy, it's not fast. Think about that.
- [51:26]
Ralph Burns
For sure. Like, people are everything. I would say the one thing that I would do if I was starting again, I would figure out the one thing I do better than anybody else in the world, or at least I think I do. And I would go after that niche and start there and then work out from there. Like, we were the first Facebook ads agency on the planet. Well, there was two other guys, but we were the only one that actually really did it. So we knew that was going to be something big. Obviously, now there's thousands of them, but I would figure out, like a niche, a thing, something that you do better than anybody else so you don't become one of those agencies like John says. And I would start there and work for cheap. And work your ass off.
- [52:05]
John Moran
Yeah. And figure out how. How much you can actually pay the work, not how cheap you can get it. That's the thing. The. The moment that you're like, oh, I can offshore this to this country for this price. It's so cheap. There's a reason for it.
- [52:17]
Ralph Burns
It's not necessarily high quality. All right, let's get back to this. Thanks a lot for Doing this, how can we implement the feeder strategy for E commerce using shopping? I think we had this question last week.
- [52:26]
John Moran
Yeah. So one campaign using low priority on max clicks or manual cpc, the duplicated version of that campaign on a high priority on a troas. There you go. Perfect.
- [52:37]
Ralph Burns
Dylan Fetch says how do you utilize the different attribution models in North Beam Specifically between clicks only and clicks and views We've run into the scenario that you guys cover frequently or FB in app and click only give all credit bottom of funnel clicks and views divide the credit and gives top funnel better cac. I'm not sure that best communicate that as FB over attributes bottom of funnel. Very true. So how do you do that?
- [53:01]
John Moran
So I don't use first click. I'm sorry, I don't use click and views. Click and views means an AI interpretation of what it thinks happened but usually defaults to whatever proactive channel spent the most.
- [53:10]
Ralph Burns
And you're talking about north being specific.
- [53:12]
John Moran
Okay, so what happens is if you use click and views and you're running Google and meta. No, if you're in YouTube and Meta but Meta's spending five times as much as YouTube it just naturally gets five times the attribution that it didn't know where it came from. So it basically takes zero data and says okay, I have all these conversions here, I have a hundred of them. Meta spending five grand a day, you two spending one grand a day, you get four, you get one. So everything that you're basing that expensive decision off of is probably directionally accurate. But I'm not going to take clients hard earned Aspen and test that theory when I don't know more. So click and views I don't use it. I use cold traffic and first click as my one point of truth. Not singular but as one point of truth. And then I look at in Google, then I look at my back end of attribution then I look at the impact and I start to do my creative or then I do my aspen testing. So when an attribution attribution is directionally accurate. Pick one that you like and then use that. So say I'm always going to use a seven day look back on accrual on first click. Good. What is that metric? It's 0.6. It doesn't mean it's 0.6. It is 0.6. Does 0.6 go to 0.7 or does it go down to 0.3 when you scale? Yeah, it doesn't have to be the right number, it just has to be directionally appropriate.
- [54:23]
Ralph Burns
Mini benchmarking. Almost.
- [54:26]
John Moran
Right. It's just mini benchmarking. That's all it is. Take your point and say if this is getting, if that should not go up, if this works and if it does go up, it doesn't work.
- [54:33]
Ralph Burns
Very true. Just like our case study here. You were looking at ncac.
- [54:37]
John Moran
Yeah.
- [54:37]
Ralph Burns
You're like, all right, I'm scaling more. NCAC isn't expanding NCAC's expanding NCAC was my goal.
- [54:42]
John Moran
Exactly. Volume at NCAC is the goal. I don't care what that number is. That equates to that top line goal. It just can't look worse when you.
- [54:50]
Ralph Burns
Get to that point. That's really what you ultimately want to be looking at. Because I mean customers don't hire you to get the same customers. They want new customers. They want Blue Ocean. They want to expand and grow the business. So okay, Bridge is asking. I think I'm butchering his name. I'm not even going to go for the bridge today. I'm trying to use search maximize classical website traffic marketing objectives to replicate feeder strategy for E commerce. I am keeping lower bid caps to keep CPCS in control. Thanks again. I don't know if there's a question in there.
- [55:21]
John Moran
Okay, so basically he's just trying to use maximize clicks on search. You can, but the problem is a max qlik sense is even more expensive than max click on shopping by 40%. So I would say try to use max clicks on shopping and then a T row as in shopping. Just because you're. It's going to be a hard jump to make that efficient just because the CPC search search are typically more than shopping.
- [55:41]
Ralph Burns
There you go. Bridge. That's your name today.
- [55:43]
John Moran
Is it Roll or Roel? I don't know.
- [55:44]
Ralph Burns
Roll. Roll.
- [55:46]
John Moran
I'm thinking the Christmas song with Noel. So that's why I'm just replacing M with R now.
- [55:52]
Ralph Burns
All right. How can you find how many days the sales cycle is without an attribution tool like Wicked using meta to generate Demand using the L1, L2, L3 setup. Good question.
- [56:01]
John Moran
Yeah, so typically what I would say is if you're not using Google so you don't get the little cheater engine of what your brand is typically on your impressions to conversion. Again, I test everything by scale. So if you're. If it's working well, increase your L1, 2 and 3 by 50% and leave it a week and then see when your your conversions actually start to increase. Now you can only really test this if it's working. Well, but if you're running an L1, 2 and 3 and you're already worried about attribution, you're probably already in a position where it's working quite well. So increase all three because you're not going to start to increase just one and then fail on the remarketing. So you have to increase all three because you're trying to exacerbate the volume of a funnel. You're not trying to interrupt the flow. So increase by L1, 2 and 3 by 50% and then just watch. Okay. When does my, you know, I'll see my traffic go up on my website and then I see my conversion rate dip on my website and then I see my conversion rate come back on my website. The time between where you see the, the increase in users and then the normalization of that conversion rate is typically your timeline. Got it.
- [57:00]
Ralph Burns
It kind of brings up one of the questions that are here. I'm actually going to show this because we've got plenty of questions that we've got to get to. I'm going to get back over to. It is the difference between North Beam and Wicked, because we've got another question in here that's sort of like that. And what. How do you look at the two North Beam Wicked?
- [57:16]
John Moran
I use them the same exact way. They're just going to give you different broken clocks. I mean, that's why attribution is not accurate. It's just interpreted.
- [57:24]
Ralph Burns
Got it. I'm trying to get back to our questions here. This is hard being the producer and the host at the same time. All right.
- [57:31]
John Moran
Easy job. I just talk.
- [57:32]
Ralph Burns
All right, from here's the question. Albic, from John's chair, do you use educational videos as ad Creative on YouTube?
- [57:38]
John Moran
From John's chair.
- [57:39]
Ralph Burns
John's chair. Do you use educational videos as ad creative? I think he's asking what content do I use for my YouTube ads, if I'm not mistaken? Albeck?
- [57:48]
John Moran
Oh, yeah, yeah, I think so. From John's chair. I don't know what that is. So I'm just gonna assume you're just saying like from for us. But yes, educational videos that creative on YouTube is all we use. I, I, that's been my model. I've never actually sent traffic to the website. If you see a YouTube ad from tier 11, chances are when you click the, the CTA is going to be watch more and you're going to go to that video or our YouTube channel so you can be educated. Yeah, that's how we sell. I mean, it's that's if we can talk the talk and show you how we walk the walk. And I will pay to prove to you that we are the best. I'm not going to sell you anything. It's still consultative. We may even not take you on as a client. But I'm trying to show everybody we know what we're doing by this. It's easy. Yeah.
- [58:31]
Ralph Burns
This will eventually become a video that will be. You will see as a pre roll some portion of it. I'll back if that gives you your answer. We have got four minutes left so we might want to go round robin or what?
- [58:44]
John Moran
Yeah, let's go fast. Let's see. Let's just do it real quick, rapid fire. How much spend would you say you need to have a third party attribution tool? Over five grand per month and at least more than two channels. I would say that's what you would need it. John, can we get a separate video guide using tools like Nordbeam et cetera? You can share some gold now. Yeah, we'll probably do more Wicked videos. Nordbeam is something that they're doing a little bit more enterprise. Mmm. So it's not going to be as useful to the majority of small to medium sized businesses. Up to about 100 million a year. So we will be doing more Wicked videos. It's still in development though in terms of the product suite. So there will be more when it's a little bit more ready to be utilized with the same teachings that we're teaching here. I would say that there, there's modifications being made.
- [59:25]
Ralph Burns
Yeah. We might even get Wicked Scott on here at some point in time once ready for prime time. So. Okay.
- [59:31]
John Moran
Yep.
- [59:31]
Ralph Burns
We'll keep going here.
- [59:33]
John Moran
Thank you for giving us so much value. Do you use education videos as a creative.
- [59:36]
Ralph Burns
Yes, we do.
- [59:38]
John Moran
Got it, got it, got it. Yeah. That's all we use. Yep. I can't convince you for fun.
- [59:43]
Ralph Burns
Well, it's going to take like lots and lots of like when a lead comes in for tier 11, they usually say, hey, I've watched like 20 videos or I've listened to a hundred episodes of Perpetual Traffic. Like it takes a while to convince people. Like this is a six figure sale in most cases.
- [59:59]
John Moran
I also don't. Right. I also don't want people to come in and be like, who are you? It's like God, like man.
- [60:03]
Ralph Burns
Yeah.
- [60:04]
John Moran
All right, here's everything that you ever want to hear anything about us.
- [60:07]
Ralph Burns
Let me show you that we actually know what we were doing by putting out educational content. If that's what you're doing, if you're selling a service that is a very good thing, that is a worthwhile time and even if you're not pitching like.
- [60:21]
John Moran
We'Re not pitching, I want you to watch all the content and say I disagree and please don't call us. That's what I mean.
- [60:26]
Ralph Burns
Exactly what our sales guy just to be an order taker really. John Ho has a question.
- [60:32]
John Moran
Have you seen work best on demand gen? And how would you evaluate success given a metric? So I actually have had nothing but bad luck on demand gen for anything that's not lead magnet. Demand gen is very good at awareness. It's very inexpensive, it's display heavy, it's feed heavy. It's not like I'm not using it for selling or lead generation. It's just hey, you want this case study? Want this download? Do you want the seven step guide? You want this coupon? You want this? It's going to be massive. Those are typically leading into an email funnel but it has very little to do with okay, they saw us on demand gen and now we're going to go. Demand gen is very, very, very high level. The targeting that usually though is that lookalike audiences or interest based segmentation. So things are interested in or interest with a purchase intention is the one that I usually see best. But I will come at them with a very high level. I just didn't. Shoes. Want to buy a shoe? It's oh, you're interested in shoes. How about this handy guy for the best running shoe for 2024. Like I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it that way.
- [61:24]
Ralph Burns
Got it.
- [61:25]
John Moran
Cool. Bridge shopping doesn't allow controlling search terms. Keep doing negatives. Yes, negatives and feed optimizations. Look at your, your titles and your descriptions of your feed. Use the GMC rule to append or prepend different keywords in your title. What would happen if you added a product title to your negative keyword list? Will it work off a SKU barcode? Only if you added a product. No. Yeah, it'll. It'll still work off of title and SKU and descriptions. So if you're saying like hey, I want to sell Samsonite luggage without selling Samsonite luggage, you, you exclude Samsonite and the things you see things like hard side luggage, carry on best luggage. Those things. Absolutely. Come in. Yes.
- [61:57]
Ralph Burns
Got time for one last one? Because we are at time.
- [61:59]
John Moran
One last one and we're at actually at the last one. Hello, John. Ralph. Question for John. Do you just learn from mistakes testing hypothesis or are there anywhere to get information ideas from. No. I've been Rabbit holing for 8 years and I'm like, I. I sit there in the shower thinking, like, what if? So I have a weird brain that just wants to break things. I like lock picking, like, I like trying to figure things out and ways to get by things. So that's just how I've been born my whole life. So a lot of time the information and ideas are coming from really too basic in my understanding of how Google works. It's here's how Troas works, Mike. Yeah, but I'm usually leveraging like multiple campaigns, batch types of business strategies to exacerbate how the learning is working. So it's usually just my crazy ass. I call them, you know, tinfoil hat days where I'm like, I think I can break it this way. So unfortunately, it's just me by myself in the shower, which I don't think you can join me there. Sorry.
- [62:47]
Ralph Burns
Sam would have a real problem with that, I think. I don't know if my wife would be happy exactly.
- [62:52]
John Moran
It would probably have to be a good management field at least.
- [62:56]
Ralph Burns
Can we sell that as a product? Get into the shower with John?
- [63:01]
John Moran
No, probably. I'd have to do like an R rated video on YouTube which probably get banned. But yeah, let's try.
- [63:05]
Ralph Burns
What's the pricing on that?
- [63:06]
John Moran
We'll get TJ on that.
- [63:07]
Ralph Burns
He'll prioritize that.
- [63:10]
John Moran
Shower time with John.
- [63:12]
Ralph Burns
Maybe that's what next week's episode is going to be. We're just going to interview you from.
- [63:15]
John Moran
The shower strategies that we're going to be using today.
- [63:20]
Ralph Burns
Using my Dove soap. All right, well, thank you so much everybody for coming today on our YouTube live on a Thursday. I don't know, like, these are pretty snuck attack. Pretty cool. Like we changed the day and the time and everything and people still show. So really appreciate everyone coming. We will post obviously on the socials our next one for next week, which I believe will be on a Friday for next week if I'm not mistaken.
- [63:45]
John Moran
But it says, what shower do you use? We need to know. Well, tune in next week. You know what, I'm gonna put my webcam in the shower.
- [64:01]
Ralph Burns
Oh, my God. That'll get us banned on YouTube. That's for damn sure.
- [64:05]
John Moran
That will.
- [64:06]
Ralph Burns
All right, well, thanks, John Moran.
- [64:08]
John Moran
Awesome.
- [64:08]
Ralph Burns
Everybody, everybody, we'll talk to you next week.
- [64:10]
John Moran
Thanks, everyone. Take care. Bye.
- [64:13]
Ralph Burns
All right, so that is this week's episode. I hope you enjoyed it. It's a longer one. Like I said. You might have to listen to it twice, especially if you have had a challenge recently or just have had a challenge in general figuring out how to get YouTube into your marketing. And with billions of users on YouTube, there is so much traffic on YouTube. And if you can figure this out, and it took John a couple of months to do this, remember, like your first shot at it, you're probably not going to succeed. But hopefully today's episode will steer you in the right direction in order to help you scale and grow your business. And of course, if you need our help, you can always get that over@tiereleven.com so please make sure wherever you listen to podcasts, leave us a rating and a review. We really do appreciate that that's the only way that we get this out to a larger audience and help marketers like yourself scale and grow. And of course, all the resources that we mentioned here on today's show will be over@perpetualtraffic.com and like I said, once again, if you're not subscribed to our channel, make sure that you do do that over@perpetualtraffic.com YouTube so on behalf of my awesome co host, Lauren E. Petrullo, until next show, see ya. You've been listening to Perpetual Traffic Leg.