Podcast Summary: Philosophy Bites

Episode: Angie Hobbs on Plato on Power

Hosts: David Edmonds & Nigel Warburton
Guest: Dr. Angie Hobbs
Date: December 11, 2025

Overview

In this engaging episode, philosophers David Edmonds and Nigel Warburton interview Dr. Angie Hobbs about Plato’s views on power, focusing primarily on the dialogues Gorgias and the Republic. Dr. Hobbs explains the ongoing relevance of Plato’s analysis of political power, justice, and the dangers posed by the corruption of language in political life. Drawing connections to contemporary issues, Hobbs explores why Plato remains indispensable for understanding power and its potential for abuse.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Plato’s Gorgias and the Nature of Power

Timestamps: 00:28–07:54

• Rhetoric as Power:
  Gorgias, a renowned orator, claims that rhetoric equates to the ability to do as one pleases—absolute power. Socrates disputes this, arguing that power without understanding of the good is not true power.

  • Quote: “If you're good at rhetoric, you can do whatever you want with whomever you want. It gives you complete power.” – Angie Hobbs (paraphrasing Gorgias) [00:44]

• Tyranny and Happiness:
  Through a debate between Socrates, Polus, and Callicles, Plato explores whether tyrants—those with unchecked power—are truly happy and whether doing wrong harms the agent more than the victim.

  • Socrates: Tyrants are wretched because harming others damages their own souls. [01:40]
  • Callicles counters that it’s better to inflict harm than to suffer it, arguing that nature celebrates the strong. [02:35]

• Callicles' Challenge:
  Callicles pushes an explicitly “might is right” worldview, claiming the strong naturally deserve more, and laws exist only to suppress them.

  • Quote: “In nature it is right...that the naturally strong should rule and that they should have more than everybody else.” – Angie Hobbs (paraphrasing Callicles) [06:07]

• Critique of Callicles:
  Hobbs and Warburton highlight inconsistencies with this view, noting its impracticality and the flawed leap from describing what is natural to prescribing what ought to be.

The Sophist Debate: Nature (phusis) vs. Law (nomos)

Timestamps: 04:03–07:54

• Callicles adopts a radical Sophist stance that nature's law—strength—should override human conventions and laws. For him, laws are tools for the weak to contain the strong.
• Warburton notes the resemblance to Nietzsche’s philosophy, to which Hobbs agrees, noting Nietzsche’s admiration for Callicles. [03:01–03:08]

Plato’s Republic and the Challenge of Thrasymachus

Timestamps: 11:04–17:48

• Nature of Justice:
  Republic Book I introduces the sophist Thrasymachus, who declares, “justice is simply the interest of the stronger.” Lawmakers, he claims, write laws for their own benefit.

  • Quote: “If you go ahead and obey the laws, you're just a mug. You're simply serving the interests of those in power.” – Angie Hobbs (paraphrasing Thrasymachus) [12:50]

• Rulers as Shepherds:
  Thrasymachus likens rulers to shepherds, fattening sheep not for the sheep’s good, but for slaughter—i.e., apparent benevolence hides exploitation.

  • Quote: “They are simply fattening up sheep, and they look as if they're caring about their flock, but they're just fattening up the sheep to get a better price…” – Angie Hobbs [13:39]

• Justice for the Naïve:
  Thrasymachus says that justice is a “virtue” only for the naive majority; true virtue is the prudent pursuit of self-interest, which usually pays off more than justice, but only if one is powerful enough to avoid consequences.

• Comparison With Callicles:
  Both Callicles and Thrasymachus treat justice as a mere tool of the powerful—Callicles for the natural aristocracy, Thrasymachus for whoever holds real power. The key difference: Callicles sees law as a weapon of the weak, Thrasymachus as a device of the strong. [17:58]

Plato’s Philosophical Response: The Tripartite Soul

Timestamps: 19:13–21:59

• Deepening the Analysis:
  Plato realizes that simply refuting egoistic hedonism isn’t enough to defeat the “might makes right” philosophy, so he develops a nuanced theory of the human psyche with three parts:

  • Reason: Seeks truth and reality
  • Spirit: Craves honor and respect
  • Appetite: Pursues pleasure and material goods

• Harmony and Justice:
  For Plato, justice (and genuine human flourishing—eudaimonia) is the harmony between these faculties, ruled by reason. True power is self-mastery, not domination of others.

  • Quote: “That inner psychic harmony not only constitutes your flourishing, your eudaimonia, but also crucially, your justice, your moral virtue.” – Angie Hobbs [21:35]

• Shift in Moral Thought:
  Justice is now conceived as an inner state rather than just a matter of external actions—“an absolutely crucial turning point... in Western thought.” [21:39]

Plato’s Warnings for Today

Timestamps: 22:11–23:29

• Corruption of Language:
  Hobbs draws a direct line to contemporary politics, emphasizing Plato’s insight into how the abuse of language paves the way for tyranny. Subverting the meanings of words like “freedom” or “power” makes people susceptible to demagogues.

  • Quote: “The rot begins with the corruption of language, the abuse of words like freedom and power and their deliberate misapplication, the subversion of moral terms.” – Angie Hobbs [22:23]

• Call for Vigilance:
  Plato urges us to notice and challenge abuses both in personal language and in that of modern ”orators”—whether online influencers or populist politicians—who seek to undermine democracy from within.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Nietzschean Parallels [03:01]:

  “It sounds very Nietzsche on first hearing this idea of despising the weak and celebrating the strong.” – Nigel Warburton

• On Plato’s Influence on Western Thought [11:55]:

  “An extraordinary moment, actually, in Western thought. It's really getting rid of the Homeric law of revenge and prefiguring Jesus's Sermon on the Mount.” – Angie Hobbs

• On the Importance of Inner Justice [21:59]:

  “Whereas justice had been conceived in terms of external actions, it's now an inner psychic state, an inner state of the agent.” – Angie Hobbs

• The Modern Relevance [22:23]:

  “Plato says... the rot begins with the corruption of language, the abuse of words like freedom and power and their deliberate misapplication, the subversion of moral terms.” – Angie Hobbs

Structural Timeline

| Segment | Timestamps | Description | |--------------------------------------------|-------------|----------------------------------------------------------------| | Introduction to Plato and Power | 00:00–00:44 | Definition, setup, overview of Gorgias | | The Rhetoric Debate in Gorgias | 00:44–04:03 | Power, rhetoric, and happiness; Callicles’ might-is-right view | | Sophist Debate: Law vs. Nature | 04:03–07:54 | Nature, convention, egoism, and Callicles' criticisms | | Callicles’ Personal Ambitions | 07:54–09:00 | Democratic aspirations & contempt for democracy | | Internal Contradictions | 09:00–11:04 | Hedonism vs. power, pleasure of the coward | | Move to the Republic, Thrasymachus Debate| 11:04–17:48 | Justice as the interest of the stronger, exploitation analogy | | Plato’s Philosophical Response | 19:13–21:59 | Tripartite soul, inner harmony, new conception of justice | | Plato’s Warnings for Modern Times | 22:11–23:29 | Language, demagoguery, vigilance |

Tone and Language

The episode is intellectually lively but highly accessible. Dr. Hobbs is passionate and clear, emphasizing the relevance of Plato’s ancient philosophy for readers today. She and the hosts use engaging analogies, occasional humor ("he’s clearly not watched any David Attenborough programs"), and contemporary examples to keep Plato’s arguments vivid.

Concluding Reflection

The episode closes with Hobbs’s warning, echoing Plato, that vigilance against the corruption of moral language is a key guardrail against tyranny—a lesson for both Plato’s Athens and our current age.

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