Philosophy Bites: Peter Godfrey Smith on Understanding Minds

Date: January 1, 2025
Hosts: David Edmonds, Nigel Warburton
Guest: Peter Godfrey Smith

Episode Overview

In this episode, philosophers David Edmonds and Nigel Warburton interview Peter Godfrey Smith, renowned for his work on animal consciousness—especially in octopuses and other cephalopods. The discussion delves into the philosophy of animal minds, evolutionary perspectives on intelligence and sentience, and the value of direct encounters with non-human animals. Godfrey Smith shares insights from his unique approach: philosophical reflection informed by firsthand interaction with diverse species, especially through diving and observation.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Doing Philosophy in a Wetsuit: Firsthand Encounters with Animal Minds

• Immersive Beginnings ([00:35]): Godfrey Smith recounts how unplanned diving experiences in Australia led him to encounter giant cuttlefish and octopuses, sparking a shift in his philosophical focus.
  • “These were animals… the first thing you notice about them is the extraordinary color changes and just how beautiful and weird they are… Then... they're interested in a human, in a diver, or actually ideally a snorkeler... And then... they are more closely related to oysters than to us.” (Godfrey Smith, 00:45–02:46)
  • Emphasizes the importance of moving from abstract theorizing to “particularist” engagement with real, individual animals.
• Uniqueness of Direct Observation ([03:11]):
  • Philosophers like Dretske, Millikan, and Dennett profoundly influenced Godfrey Smith, but their approach was highly abstract. Directly engaging with animals, he felt, added crucial richness.

2. Organizing Animal Minds: The Tree of Life Approach

• Evolutionary Context Matters ([05:11]):
  • Godfrey Smith organizes philosophical thinking around phylogenetic relationships—how far each species is from humans evolutionarily.
  • “Whenever you encounter an animal, you can think about the common ancestor… how far do you have to go back to get to a great, great, great grandmother of both me and this animal?” (Godfrey Smith, 05:19)
  • Similarities (like the “camera eye” in octopuses and humans) and differences (octopus’ distributed nervous system, shapeless body) are mostly products of independent evolutionary paths.
  • “If we have things in common, it's mostly because independently these have evolved on the two different lines... there's quite a long list of features in common where most of them would have been independently arising traits on both sides.” (Godfrey Smith, 06:17–07:28)

3. The Value and Limits of Firsthand Engagement

• Chaos vs. Regularity in Animal Behavior ([08:20]):
  • Reading about animal behavior in books gives a sense of patterns and predictability. In reality, behavior is messy, unpredictable, and chaotic.
  • “If you then go out and hang out with the animals described, you know, God knows what they're doing half the time. I mean, it's chaos... octopuses... are able to do new things. They have this inherent complexity in what they do, which is hard to summarize.” (Godfrey Smith, 08:41–09:42)
  • Emphasizes repeated, in-person observation—now also with birds—to better appreciate the complexity and unpredictability of animal life.

4. What Studying Other Minds Tells Us About Ourselves

• Learning About Minds in Nature ([10:27]):
  • Confronted with the question of whether studying animals teaches us about ourselves, Godfrey Smith focuses on understanding non-human minds in their own right.
  • “I'm rarely struck by a lesson about us from, from these encounters though.” (Godfrey Smith, 10:57)
  • However, acknowledges the exceptionality of human minds due to language and culture.
  • “I think that once one steps back and thinks about the similarities and differences, I have something of a human exceptionalist outlook because the role of language and culture... has very deep effects.” (Godfrey Smith, 11:28)
  • “Language is a public, cultural, interpersonal thing, essentially. But once it’s been honed and refined… it becomes an extraordinary internal resource. It becomes a gift from the public to the private.” (Godfrey Smith, 11:55)

5. Why Philosophers Have Lagged Behind Biologists

• History of Animal Minds in Philosophy ([13:43]):
  • Reminisces on the philosophical neglect of animal minds, particularly in the 1980s, but sees this gap narrowing.
  • “I look back at that time… What would the reading list be?… Very short list. I don’t think it’s a short list anymore.” (Godfrey Smith, 13:49)
• Slow Adoption of Evolutionary Context ([14:16]):
  • The dominance of philosophy of language and logic made philosophers slow to embrace evolutionary approaches to the mind.

6. Armchair Philosophy vs. Immersive Philosophy

• Theoretical vs. Empirical Engagement ([14:54]):
  • Godfrey Smith defends the value of “armchair” or purely theoretical work but says firsthand observation and immersion has uniquely enriched his own thinking.
  • “There’s a tradition of armchair theoretical biology which I would not want to slight... but for me at least... getting into the water, spending time with the individuals, I think has helped me enormously.” (Godfrey Smith, 15:10–15:46)

7. Phenomenology and Projecting Non-Human Experience

• Toward Non-Human Phenomenology ([16:19]):
  • Agrees that encounters with animals prompt us to try to imagine what their experience is like, projecting “phenomenology” beyond humans.
  • “Encounters with particular animals... will help you get beyond a human centric way of looking at that. And that’s very valuable.” (Godfrey Smith, 16:38)

8. The Deeper Value of Understanding Animal Minds

• Beyond Curiosity ([17:11]):
  • Studying animal minds goes to the heart of basic philosophical questions: “what minds are, where they are, how they arise, how they fit into the non mental world.”
  • “Those I think of as pretty close to compulsory questions in philosophy... so it never really crosses my mind to think that this might be a mere curiosity.” (Godfrey Smith, 17:11–17:32)

Notable Quotes

• On encountering cephalopods:
  “This living video screen animal that looks a bit like an octopus attached to a turtle… they have a kind of engagement, an inquisitive way of being.” (Godfrey Smith, 01:33)
• On evolution and convergence:
  “If you meet an octopus, it has a camera eye, an eye on the same design as ours… there’s no way the common ancestor was like that… the meeting is a meeting of animals that have converged on this feature.” (Godfrey Smith, 06:17)
• On behavioral chaos:
  “If you then go out and hang out with the animals described, you know, God knows what they're doing half the time. I mean, it's chaos.” (Godfrey Smith, 08:52)
• On human exceptionality:
  “Language is a… public, cultural, interpersonal thing… But once it’s been honed… it becomes an extraordinary internal resource. It becomes a gift from the public to the private.” (Godfrey Smith, 11:55)
• On the purpose of studying minds:
  “It matters if we want to understand what minds are, where they are, how they arise, how they fit into the non mental world.” (Godfrey Smith, 17:11)

Major Segments & Timestamps

• 00:35 – Opening remarks: Godfrey Smith on diving and beginnings of his animal focus
• 03:11 – On moving from abstract philosophy to animal-specific observations
• 05:11 – The “tree of life” as an organizing principle
• 08:20 – The value—and unpredictability—of observing real animal behavior
• 10:27 – Reflections on whether studying animals teaches us about ourselves
• 11:20 – The exceptional nature of human minds
• 13:43 – Philosophical history and the place of animal minds
• 14:54 – Value of theoretical vs. empirical work
• 16:19 – Experience and phenomenology of non-human minds
• 17:11 – Why understanding animal minds is more than a curiosity

Memorable Moments

• “God knows what they're doing half the time. I mean, it's chaos… octopuses would be our natural teachers.” (Godfrey Smith, 08:52) — A vivid snapshot of nature’s unpredictability.
• “It becomes a gift from the public to the private.” (Godfrey Smith, 11:55) — On how language transforms thought.

Conclusion

Peter Godfrey Smith’s work bridges philosophy, biology, and direct experience. His immersive approach champions the importance of understanding animal minds in their own right, enriching philosophical discussions about consciousness, evolution, and the diversity of minds in nature. His insistence on particulars, evolutionary context, and phenomenological projection urges philosophers to move beyond armchair speculation—without undermining its value—toward a richer appreciation of mind across the tree of life.