← PhotoWork with Sasha Wolf - Photography Podcast
PhotoWork with Sasha Wolf - Photography Podcast
Rahim Fortune - Episode 78
00:51:23
@ picture house + thesmalldarkroom | A Photography Visual Arts Podcast
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Transcript58 lines
- [00:00]
A
All right, let's do this, peanut. If you're staying in the room, no talking. Hello and welcome to the Photo Work Podcast. Talking and touchy feely version of my book, Photo 40 Photographers on Process and Practice. Hello, everyone. I'm Sascha Wolfe recording from Woodstock, New York, and I'm joined, as usual, by my friend and producer, Mr. Michael Chovendalton. Hello, Michael.
- [00:36]
B
Hey, look, we got through that one nice and clean.
- [00:38]
A
I know we did. I was just thinking to myself, don't f up. Just keep going, keep going. Be confident.
- [00:47]
B
And also, I know you're a little under the weather, so I didn't want to tax your voice and help you.
- [00:52]
A
No, thank you. I got a cold. I was at a wet wedding all weekend. That was wonderful.
- [00:58]
B
Oh, that's nice.
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A
Yeah. But a lot of socializing, a lot of activities, a lot of exposure, and I wound up with a pretty bad sore throat, which is the first time I think I've had, like a common cold in a few years.
- [01:14]
B
Something normal.
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A
Yeah. I still haven't had Covid, by the way.
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B
Oh, that's right, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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A
But anyway, yeah, I woke up and I was like, oh, yeah, feeling crappy anyway.
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B
But what was not crappy? See, that's my transition.
- [01:28]
A
Yeah, awesome. Do it. I support.
- [01:32]
B
We had just a wonderful live recording in front of a studio audience at a picture house in the small, dark room. And boy, was that a really lovely crowd. Yeah. And of course, that was with Raheem Fortune.
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A
Yeah, that was really fun. That was almost two weeks ago now. We met over at Picture House and you set everything up and. Yeah, it was our first. It was a little challenging. Just. I think I mentioned it in the episode itself, trying to figure out who I was talking to. Exactly. There is a packed house of people right in front of us. And then I know, of course, that we were recording for the podcast. So there's you guys listening.
- [02:14]
B
It was a visual show for the audience.
- [02:17]
A
Yes.
- [02:18]
B
And a non visual show for everyone listening right now.
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A
Yes, right, exactly. But, yeah, it was really wonderful to be over at Picture House and to see the team hadn't seen those guys in a few months. And yeah, it was really wonderful and it was great to be in conversation with Raheem for sure.
- [02:35]
B
Yes. And you have a really, I think sort of at the heart of the conversation was this idea of collaboration, because Raheem really acknowledges a lot of collaboration. You talk about the importance of collaboration, and I think people often immediately go to that, editing a book. But you and Raheem what you really talk about is there's people in the photograph and they're kind of your first collaborators. Right. You're working with the people in the photograph. And then there's collaboration, of course, with Sarah Chaplin espidon at loose joints, and that is the editing of the book and putting the book together. But what often goes, I think, unnoticed is the production, getting those images together, getting those images just right. And Raheem did that with Picture House, with the team at Picture House. And they really, you know, take pride in working with the artist and prepping the images and getting them just right and getting all those approvals done so that when it does go to press or pre press, when it, when you are working with your editor, you know, that's something you don't have to think about. And, you know, Picturehouse, of course, is our sponsor, but, you know, it was so nice to talk to Claudia Galindo at Picturehouse and, you know, just see the kind of excitement and enthusiasm they have for this process from beginning to end. Because, of course, that book is also available in their really incredible bookstore library, which I was amazed at how many hits there are in that collection.
- [04:04]
A
Yeah, they have a lot of rare books and yeah, it's a pretty. It's hard to go over there and not spend a lot of money. Exactly.
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B
You're like, oh, it's a candy store.
- [04:19]
A
It's a candy store. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's wonderful that they have this, you know, amazing long standing relationship now with Raheem where they, you know, do so much with him and in this case, got everything ready for press.
- [04:34]
B
The other thing I thought was really interesting in your conversation with Raheem is the way he talks about his three books now as a trilogy. And honestly, I wasn't thinking about his books as a trilogy, but, you know, he had self published Oklahoma and then he published I Can't Stand to See youe Cry in Hardtack with Loose Joints. And after he said it, I was like, oh, of course. It's obvious. They're. They're a trilogy. And that's a really great part of the conversation.
- [05:00]
A
Yeah, yeah, for sure. No, it's. It's a lovely. I love talking with Raheem and I think our listeners will enjoy it. Any other. I'm sorry to be. I need to go back to bed. Any other.
- [05:13]
B
Yes. Yes.
- [05:14]
A
Any other announcements?
- [05:16]
B
Yeah. So coming up at Picture House on June 20, Yelena Yamchuk will be talking about her new book, Malanga, published by Edition Patrick Frey. And there'll be more details about that event posted on their website, P H T S D R dot com. So check that out.
- [05:32]
A
All right, well, I'm sorry, everyone, that I'm such a bummer today, but.
- [05:40]
B
This is half of us having a lot of energy.
- [05:44]
A
Right? I know. We were hoping you could carry me, but I brought you down. I apologize. Anyway, I also. Let me just say something on a personal note quickly. Sure. We got a lot of great feedback from last episode, the conversation with Chris McCall. And I just want to thank everyone for all those lovely messages. I mean, we get really wonderful feedback pretty much all of the shows. So thank you, everyone. But obviously, the Chris episode where we discuss a lot of sort of inside baseball stuff about the market itself and the way things are functioning right now in the photo market was helpful to people, and so that feels great. I'm really happy about that. And I loved having Chris on. Thank you, Chris.
- [06:30]
B
Yeah, Chris is the best. Yeah. Can I make a little plug? I don't normally do this on your show, but I have Ali Hoistline on my show right now, and I thought they'd be great companion shows, so I wanted to put her. I recorded her at Chico, but I wanted those shows to come out together.
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A
So Ali is so.
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B
Yes. Allie is the co director of Pier 24. And the way Chris and Ali talk about each other is just so wonderful. And they're so smart, and what they do is so, so just brilliant. Absolutely.
- [07:02]
A
Love Ali. Hey, Ali. Still trying to figure out if you and I can get out to do another show.
- [07:08]
B
We need to.
- [07:09]
A
Yeah. So working on that. Got to get Tower to write us a check. Tower. Get out the checkbook. Tower.
- [07:18]
B
That's.
- [07:20]
A
Lots of great things happening at the foundation, by the way, and we'll be able to talk about more of that coming up. But we've been applying for some grants. We've received them, which is really exciting. And we're preparing to expand the fellowships next year and all sorts of great stuff. So foundation continues to grow. Really, really proud of that and so proud of the team you Tower sells back. Thank you, Tower, for really keeping everything moving. Peter K Office, the head of the board who really steers so much, makes sure we're in calm waters. So an excellent captain. All right. On that note, Michael, if you don't mind, please take it away.
- [08:03]
B
My pleasure. And here's your conversation with Raheem Fortune at Picture house and the small darkroom.
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A
Hi, everyone. Nice to see folks I know and folks I don't know. Thanks for being here, Michael. And I were joking around or maybe we were sort of serious about whether how we were going to start this if I was going to actually say Raheem Fortune, welcome to the Photo Work podcast, but I don't think it's necessary. Wait, I did just say it, but I don't think it's necessary. I think we'll just get right into it. Raheem has been a guest on the show couple times, so, you know, one thing I do want to say that I think is important to the sort of incongruence of this being a live event and a podcast is that I can't really get too into individual images because it just wouldn't be a great experience for people listening. So I apologize ahead of time to anyone who is hoping that Rahim and I might do a sort of image by image analysis. Just not going to do that tonight, but hopefully we'll keep you entertained with other questions and Rahim's no doubt brilliant answers. So I am going to ask you about a couple of images, having just said that, but for the most part, talk about process and sort of the bigger picture of making a body of work and making a book. And I just want to thank Quickly Picture House, our good friends at the podcast, Richard and Claudia. Sophia, thank you guys so much. And my good friend Raheem. It's always really great to be with you. And of course, Mr. Michael Chovendalton. Thank you for getting all this together. Michael literally could not do it without you. All right, so let's get started. I have so many questions, and as usual, of course I won't get to all of them. That's normal. That's normal for me. Hopefully you guys don't realize that if you listen to the podcast. So one of the first things I want to ask you about in this beautiful new book is how one launches the viewer into the book is obviously incredibly important. And with this book, the first image after the title page is this beautiful picture for our listeners. I'm going to have Rahim describe not just that picture, but the one after it and the one after it. Raheem, can you describe those images for our listeners and even for the folks here? Because it'd be interesting to hear how you think about them. And then I want to ask you about that sequence, which I think is really fascinating.
- [11:01]
C
Yes. So great to see you. Great to see Michael. It's always nice being back as a podcaster with you guys exclusively. But yeah, so thinking about the book in particular is such a different viewing experience from seeing Images online, as we often see now, and seeing images in an exhibition setting. So a lot of the intentionality, from even the COVID of the book, materiality of the book, to that opening sequence, is all meant to give the viewer an experience that opens them up into the story and the sequence of over 70 images that they're about to experience. And there's kind of multiple points of anchoring that happen throughout the sequence to keep you interested and to keep your eyes, you know, understanding the context of what the story is and what the images represent. And so that beginning sequence, even starting with the first image that appears before the title page, it's just an image of a house has been left vacant for some time. There's a windmill in front of the house. And I was thinking a lot about the Dust bowl era photos of Arthur Rothenstein, who was one of the youngest FSA photographers, And he kind of extensively photographed homes that had been left vacant after the Dust bowl, when people had migrated from their farming communities to maybe urban centers after the, you know, failed crops of the Dust Bowl. And so I just thought about this kind of lost home as metaphor for something that I think is so imperative of human condition that we're constantly migrating. And I always kind of come back to this quote where it says the only thing that is consistent is change. And that, you know, with even within these communities that I'm photographing, I'm constantly thinking about the ways in which they're changing and that it's a really a force of history that we actually can't really impose too much on. And, you know, I think often at times, the idea of loss of community and loss of neighborhoods is overly simplified. And so within the book, I wanted to work to explain how communities change and how cultural signifiers can be lost. And then getting into the next image, which is titled Praise Dancers and was made in a small town south of Houston called Edna, Texas. And the image shows a close friend of mine, Chastity Chavon, who was a stylist and a collaborator within this book. And throughout a series of images in the book, the woman in the center who is praise dancing, teaching to younger women. This tradition that has been upheld within the church where she grew up and was something that was very important to her. She's actively passing down this tradition, but also the actual gestural act of what they are doing is setting a praise, and in my mind, kind of setting a blessing and an intention. And when you go into the next image, it is paired with the photo from the same town, which is the high school where Chastity's mother attended. And it is the George Washington Carver School that was probably formerly segregated school in the town. And it had been demolished kind of against the community's wishes. And so throughout the book, you're kind of reminded between these vignettes of beauty, but also the reality of how we have chosen to honor some of these places and remember them and the kind of ticking clock of history. And maybe that we have began to acknowledge the importance of some of these places too late. And then the following images of a cowboy titled Praying Cowboy. His name is Lawrence, and it was made at a Juneteenth rodeo in Texas in, I believe, around 2021. And he's shown with his hat over his chest during the national anthem. And in this image, I thought that it kind of got back to this idea of reverence, spirituality, and like kind of a paying of dues to history. You know, these men who are about to get onto these horses and bulls and kind of do these death defying activities, they have a big sense of, you know, reciprocity, you know, in a religious stance or in a karmic stance. And I thought that to be able to show these parallels between the various spaces was something that I was interested in articulating with the edit. This was also greatly attributed to my collaborator, Sarah from Loose Joints, who has been the editor who's worked with me on both of my books. And so, yeah, through a lot of conversations and kind of. But I guess the last thing I'll say is that the edit from the book is based on a maquette that I had made. And so the maquette was just a Moleskine notebook with just very small, modest prints taped in. And it was a way of like kind of physically and materially, I could begin to understand the photographs in a more physical perspective.
- [15:19]
A
So some of these questions, like the one I'm about to ask may seem sort of rudimentary, but I think it's really important to not take for granted the thought process or processes and the conversations that you may have with someone like Sarah or other people in your life when you're thinking about sequencing. So as rudimentary as it may sound, I want to just sort of drill down a little bit more on that 1, 2, 3. Or you could say 1, 2, 3, 4, if you count the picture before the title page. But I'm sort of thinking about those three, because Praise Dancers is such a powerful image. And those three images that I'm having us discuss to me are very powerful images. But There is a real. You sort of start out in this. You know, there's something, you know, euphoric almost and obviously majestic. And, you know, it could use so many different adjectives to describe the praise dancer's image. It's so emotional but ecstatic. It's almost ecstatic. And then the next picture of the school that's been closed is upsetting. And then the following picture brings you back into a sort of a space in some ways not between those two, that wouldn't be right. But in some ways emotionally. And, you know, to me as a viewer, that's really what I get. I don't know if other people get that. I look at it and I think, well, that's really clear. Like, do you see that? Did you think that when you were putting it together, like, I know, I heard what you just said, that you want to give a full picture of place, but the sort of intensity of those three images, was that something you really thought? I want to start this with that sort of real emotional. It's not a roller coaster that would be, you know, hyperbolic. But it is. It's a lot, yes.
- [17:23]
C
I mean, you know, I think that there is a responsibility in ethics within dealing with some of the subject matter that the book touches on. And so that was always something that I was very clear on, wanting to make sure that we got right, you know, that it wasn't something that was reactionary or overly sensationalized, and to treat the subject matter with a level of respect and almost a semi academic approach to understanding these collective and shared histories and to make an individual statement about something that is impactful and difficult and heavy for so many black Americans. So that was definitely something that was on mind just as a base level of responsibility and ethics, as I said so throughout the book, so many decisions are made about the narrative by myself, the artist and as well as the editor. So certain pairings and juxtapositions in the, you know, the ethics of putting somebody next to another subject matter that maybe they aren't directly related to. So I would say that that was something that was intentional. And I think that, you know, that sequence in particular, often as a photographer, I think that, you know, I can speak for myself. You know, that's why I love working with collaborators. Because sometimes my editing becomes so literal because I have such an abundance of context around when the image was made, what was made next. So my version of the story can be quite literal of the reading. And so I think that when I made that, the fact that the images were made in the same town. They kind of expose these two corresponding truths of the culture is still here existing, the people are still resilient and thriving. But there also is this kind of disregarding of the history here. I mean, there was another image that was made, a man who appears later in the book. He was photographed in a nearby town called El Campo. And he is a relative of the woman in the Praise Dancers photo. And there's this pairing in the book of his son and of him. And you don't really get to see this within the sequence, but there's this conversation between a troubled relationship between a father and son. And what does that reconciliation and that, like, reprise of a bond and connection look like? But this is maybe more something that is just felt within the photographs as though you don't get the. It's not written out for you, but there was a photo of that man who was seated on the. What was just a kind of block of concrete that was once the front porch of where his grandmother lived. And I mean, when, you know, you have a. People who don't have this connection to their history or to the places that are fundamental to who we are, that is a sense of loss of self that I think actively, a lot of people work to regain through community and through belonging more generally. So, you know, and I think that it's imperative to say that a lot of the photographs is just as much as they are about subject matter, are things that I resonate with in my own life, in my own search for a sense of self and search for a sense of community and how important that is to living a whole life, you know, and living a fulfilled life. And so I think that, you know, coming off of I Can't Stand to See youe Cry, a book that was very much about the loss of my father. The earlier work, Oklahoma, which is about the passing of my mother, that this book to then go out and affirm family and community and was obviously something that was very heavy on my heart at the time and something that I kind of could hyper focus in on the importance of these bonds, having just lost a lot of family members. And so, you know, it's all done in a hopefully graceful manner and as an act of love and affirmation for what feeds my soul and what I would consider home.
- [20:55]
A
I want to follow up on something you just said, but when you first started that answer, you said something else that interested me. So I'm going to jump on a couple things there. You talked about collaboration, and of course, we all know that people we collaborate with, whether it's editors or, you know, well, anyone can be an editor, right? A close friend, any sort of colleague, you know, of course these people bring. Everyone brings their own life history to their looking at imagery. When do you read your own images? Some people really read their imagery as they're making the picture. Some people very soon after. And some people during a process like editing a book or putting an exhibition together, when do you really in earnest read your own work?
- [21:48]
C
Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. I think that I consider one of the primary elements of how we read images is just time past and memory. And so as memories change, I think your relationships to particular photographs change. You kind of see them in different times. And I think that is also similar for grief. I've always spoken about grief and when I speak to other people who experience grief that it's not a single pass journey of healing. You know, grief and loss feels different at different benchmarks. Like you might feel the loss of a parent at a graduation differently than you feel it at a wedding, differently than you feel it on an annual holiday. And so I think that there's a way that I view the photos too that are, they have different lives that they take on. And so when you, you know, when you first make a photograph, there's this kind of like glee of just having made an image or like, oh, did I get the exposure right? Did they blink? Like, and that's kind of a first inclination of like, oh, wow, it's in focus, you know, it's responding to that. Then as time passes on, you kind of might shift to one that you know, you really love. But you're like, ah, you know, I'm kind of loving it just for the wrong reasons. Maybe you just like it because you like the person or, you know, and then certain photos, and that's the importance of, you know, having time pass. These photographs are made over an eight year period. Sometimes you would have an image that kind of stands up, you know, and you show it to friends and you read people's reaction, you know, which can also be not the best indicator of if a photo is good or not. But, you know, ones will stay with you. And that was the benefit of having worked on this for so long. And then I'll say the final kind of thing is when the book is done and you're looking at it now not from the eye of editing. And you know, I don't know if anyone here has ever like worked on like music editing or video editing. And you can't really see the thing because you've been looking at it from this kind of critical, constructive lens for so long that you actually can't really see the thing. And I mean, a great friend of mine who I know you've interviewed before is the photographer Kuran Heidelberg. And he just told me the coolest thing one time when he was like, put it down for two months, man, and just come back, see how it feels. And there's some truth to that because yeah, sometimes you just like you're obsessing over it. And you know, I think that within making a long term project, you might kind of go crazy a few times and feel, you know, every mix of emotions while making the photographs. And then, I mean, one of my favorite quotes that I always talk about you saying, Sasha, is that you're skeptical of an artist who's too in love with their work. And so I think that there's that. Sorry to put you on the spot, but that's a good one. But I think there's that part too where you have to interrogate if you're just loving everything that you're making and you just think that it's the best, you know, like God's gift to earth. I think there's a happy balance between all of those various viewpoints of criticism. And then I guess the last thing I'll say just to kind of keep the conversation going, is that I think sometimes there's a photo that you don't like that someone has to explain to you as a good picture because you have, you know, you knew where it was made or you knew something about the person or, you know, but sometimes somebody with no context might look at an image and see something that you're not able to see. And that's always something that I talk about like when someone proposes an edit and something's like jarring to you sometimes, like that might be a good thing because it's getting out of just your kind of conventions of how you see your own photographs and can open something to a kind of non biased viewer who might just run into the book in a bookstore. It doesn't need to be so shrouded in this personal context. A hat needs an openness to be able to be ready by somebody who might not have all of that additional information.
- [25:14]
A
I think that all of what Rahim just said is so valuable. So I want to just stay with it for a minute. This is the part of the podcast where I like to. In my mind, I'm mentally taking a highlighter for Everyone. The reason I'm suspicious of artists who are too in love with their own work is because to me, that usually has to do with the idea, being in love with the idea. And it ties in just so much with what Raheem was just talking about in the big picture that it's very, very difficult to separate how you felt the day you were making a picture. You may have, you know, found out that the person you're in love with is in love with you the day you made a certain picture. And you can't get that. You can't separate that feeling from the actual end result. The picture itself. It's going to have all those things in it, even if it has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual photograph. And, of course, vice versa. Which is what Rahim also said that someone may have to convince you that a picture is good. You may just have gone through a really difficult time of not having an idea for a project, and it may have crushed you for two months or three months or six months or a year or two years. And you might be in a really dark place, and all of a sudden you have an idea. That doesn't mean the photographs are going to be good, but you could be euphoric around the idea itself. And these are things that, as one matures as an artist, it's hard because I can say this and Raheem can say it, and other people can say it. It may be that you have to just go through it. But I've said before, I've told this story before, that when I was a filmmaker, I was making a film, and I was really suffering. It was a very difficult shoot, very difficult location. And I was getting nosebleeds. Just like stress notes, nosebleeds. And this is a narrative film, and I needed this shot. And the sun was changing, and so we had to relight everything to work with the way in which the actual daylight was changing. And so we lost hours. And, you know, hours is money. I was shooting 35 millimeter film and finally got the shot, practically burst into tears during the editing process. I got into the editing suite one day and my editor was showing me a sequence of this film. And this shot that had almost killed me was not in the sequence. And I watched it, and Marty was like, what'd you think? And I was like, marty, where's the shot with the guy by the water fountain? And Marty just was like, oh, we didn't need it. And you get it. It's really tough sometimes to separate out your ideas, your feelings. Whatever something meant to you, whatever you were going through that day from actually the end result. And it's just so crucial to have someone that you trust. And as I also always say, it should not be someone who's scared of hurting your feelings, like maybe your mom or something is not great, or someone you're in a relationship with. Usually that can be very tricky. So I'm going to ask you sort of pivot a little bit. You've been working in more or less a certain vein over the past 10 years. There are some differences, and we can talk about. And please feel free actually just to talk about them and enlighten everyone and let us know how you think about it. But I wonder if you ever get visually restless or if that hasn't come up yet for you. I know, and we know a lot of. We have a lot of people in common who don't get visually restless at all. They're still trying to perfect whatever way of shooting. They started shooting decades ago. And then we know other people who get quite restless. And I've never asked you, as someone who works with you, but do you ever feel that way, that you want to just all of a sudden just do something totally different?
- [29:28]
C
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, also just something maybe separate from making photographs and thinking about photographs. I think about the Cartier Bresson quote that he says, the best way to make better photographs is to just simply enrich your life. And I find that to be very true, this idea that if you don't enjoy being outside and interacting with people, that there's not going to result many good photos from that. And so there's a kind of openness and intentionality of joy and, I guess, genuine, you know, authenticity when you're dealing with people. Because if you're just there to, like, get a portrait of someone and then you want to run off, you know, the portrait is probably not going to be good. That energy is going to be felt within the image. So I do find that enjoying the spaces where I'm photographing and, you know, sharing laughs with people and breaking bread and all of that is just as important as, you know, putting a camera up to your face. But I guess, you know, maybe more annoyingly, I am always interested in just, like, making photographs, in figuring out ways of making new things, trying a new skill. It's like, you know, doing a new recipe or learning something new, like on a musical instrument. It's the same kind of idea of, like, I guess, what people did before phones, you know, which was like, real stuff. So, you know, I think that it's all connected. But what I will say kind of more directed to the question is. I've kind of come to really think of photographs in the sense of projects. And so I think sometimes it requires experimenting. Or as I've heard, you kind of make the parallel of, like, sketching different ideas. To maybe find what that new project is. Because, just as I said about how you can be kind of your own worst enemy. In the sense of editing and being too literal. You can maybe bog yourself down with this notion of what a project is or what it looks like. And you start to put these kind of walls around it that are maybe arbitrary. And maybe there's two projects can be one. So that also is a part that requires openness. But I do think that a certain level of intentionality is important. And so if you're trying to string together a series of images. What are the unifying factors of these photographs? Is it a tonality? Is it a formal approach? Is it a crop factor? And so, you know, once I kind of start to realize that something is working as a series, you know, I try to make photographs in a more or less consistent manner. Just to help with the way that they're read by the viewer. So, you know, I also really enjoy photographing things that I'm, like, close to. Things that don't require me to kind of go off into, like, unsheaded land to make my photographs. I like to make photographs in spaces where I more or less exist. And so, you know, home in the south. Attending different community events. Things like skateboarding or things like, you know, Native American celebrations in powwows. Which has always been a big part of my upbringing. And so these spaces where I've always been hanging out already. Kind of tend to be the best places to make photographs. And, you know, that closeness, but also that decision to go further into connecting with people. And it's a conscious choice. Because often it's easy to want to be reclusive or be in the house or as an artist. A lot of us suffer from imposter syndrome. Or kind of believing the worst version of our own insecurities. As we go out into the world with a camera. And so, yeah, it's nice to try to let go of that. And to make that conscious decision to go towards the light as a metaphor, I suppose. But, yeah, I'll end there.
- [32:52]
A
My next question is just. It's like you teed it up unintentionally. Because I was going to ask you about the use of flash. So speaking of going toward the light, tell me about flash in this book and what it means.
- [33:06]
C
Yeah, so, you know, for me, I was always interested in old camera equipment and, you know, also as a thing of like, growing up in the south. And I think it's kind of just also an American thing of, like, going to secondhand shops and antique stores, you know. So I always was, like, interested in any old camera since, you know, since I was young. I just was into, like, gadgets, more or less. I would, like, collect old projectors and slide projectors. And then I started collecting, like, Technicolor films. And, you know, that was before I was really making photographs. I was already really interested in that. And so I would say that flash fundamentally was also that they're like these contraptions that create light. And once I started learning about the various different bulb types and the different types of flashes used through various decades, like that within itself became fascinating. It's a loaded question. And so as not to, like, go too deep on flash, but you did ask. So I'm like, no, I want to know. But, you know, then, you know, one of my favorite photographers and I speak about his work often, is Milton Rogovin. You know him as well as Charles Teenie Harris, who was, you know, I believe Teenie Harris has one of the largest archives of a single artist of black American life. And he worked in, you know, I believe it was around maybe like the 50s or so. And he was just an incredible photographer in Pittsburgh. And Milton Rogovin, who worked in Buffalo, New York throughout the 60s and 70s, photographing the Buffalo community as well as the end of the steel working community and unions in Buffalo. And so he would often. And I guess the last one is Russell Lee, who was also kind of the person who like Advent, like the big flash that would fill up rooms. He was one of the first FSA photographers to really employ a lot of flash. And so I was always interested in the texture of flash and always this thing that I said about black and white photography with flash in particular, is that it is completely the opposite way of how we see the world. Naturally we see the world, you know, acknowledging those who are colorblind. Like most of us see the world in color and with ambient light. So black and white with flash is this kind of jarring way of interacting with the world. It's not a way in which we naturally see things. And so something about that in particular was spectacular, you know, and then I guess the last thing is thinking about the connection to vernacular photography And a lot of the photography in this book is kind of meant to be a conversation with the history of photography in black American communities in the way that it was always used as a tool of reshaping narratives and kind of national consciousness around impacting prejudice and stereotypes. And this history of the impact of the civil rights photographs and down to the portraits of Sojourner Truth and Frederick Douglass and their use of self creation through the camera. And I mean, the work that's been done by Deb Willis and kind of looking at black photography at the infancy of the medium, it was always used as a tool to preserve and to self fashion and self create. And so I was really interested in responding to that language of photography with these images that were made in the past 10 years, which is a very modern context. And to kind of use that point to look at how far, how close we are to this history. And so, yeah, the flash was something that was really fascinating to me to use, but also a means of just being able to shoot in any time of the day. And so, yeah, there's a lot of ways in which I consider flash and different types of flashes and the way that I pair them with certain cameras. So, yeah, I kind of like really, really enjoy making those pictures.
- [36:41]
A
You did a wonderful interview with the writer, Alison Schaller. Just give her credit because I thought she asked you a lot of really great questions. It's a really. And you gave a lot of great answers. It's a really great piece. I want to just follow up on a couple things in here that I thought were really interesting. Allison asks you says with Hardtack being so tied to photo history and being rooted in the history of the south, which has had a really tumultuous and even contemporarily challenging history, I think at times it's also been really a commodified space to profile. I'm curious how you've navigated that while making this work. And you had a couple of answers in there, but I wanted to start with the first thing you said, quoting you, I think that just not being reactionary with how I share the images or how they come out into the world. Many of these photographs weren't shared on social media prior to the book coming out. That really allows you to make something that's your own creation versus something that is of a certain moment. I agree. Can you talk about that?
- [37:48]
C
Yes. I mean, not to expand on it too extensively, but I have always kind of spoken with friends and students about this kind of phenomenon of social media photography. And what I kind of call the breadcrumb project, that you're kind of just dropping breadcrumbs to people to follow to potentially something larger, I think that can be a really a big disservice to a photographic series. And I think that one of the things, to me that makes photography an art and when it functions as art, is a cohesive series of images that's very considered. I think that photography is such an accessible medium that the intentional act of sitting with a sequence of photographs and a series of images that are meant to be constructed almost like you would consider a musical album, where every note is considered, song listing is considered, track order is all intentional. I feel the same way about what makes a successful photographic process and practices. So, you know, if you were to just share the images kind of preemptively on social media and say, hey, from upcoming series, made them this weekend on a trip, you know, it just kind of loses a bit of the magic of what the first response someone could have to an image. And, you know, people have such quick attention spans now is that I knew that with these photographs, the last thing I wanted to ever experience was someone to look at and say, oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I saw some of it on your Instagram, like, keep it up. What's next? You know, I was like, no, look at the pictures. Spend time with them. And so also, when it comes to publication and having your work featured, people often really want to, you know, and it's the same way if you work with a publisher. Very few times will a publisher be interested if you bring them a completed book and say, hey, it's ready to go. Just need someone to do it. People pride themselves on collaborating with someone, having it be, in a way, something that they can say is their. Their own. And I think that that's just something of human nature. I mean, unless you're just paying somebody to do it for you, people have an investment of wanting to play a hand in shaping the thing. So if that's a publisher, if that's a publication, it can really hurt you if the work has been overly shared for later opportunities. So without, like, bagging on people too much, because I think it's also kind of a privileged thing to say, because I think that also young artists need to use social media to have their work garner attention. But I think there is a thoughtful practice behind how we share images. And often, you know, I can be a little bit, you know, turned off from people who overshare photography, you know, but there is this, like I said, this kind of cycle of people saying, like, oh, what's next? What are you shooting? What are you doing? And how we maybe feel like we're not doing enough, which is completely intention and function of social media to keep us in this kind of state of feeling inadequate and kind of playing on our worst anxieties as artists and as people. So, yeah, I try to resist it as much as possible and just keep offense to account that, you know, close people can see, and I'm not kind of plastering out the work that I'm in process with.
- [40:50]
A
Well, I think it's really, you know, very you, which I really respect to not want to, you know, say anything that would be hurtful to anyone who is, you know, feeling like they need to use social media to get their name out there and whatever. And so I think we can all agree that there are exceptions to everything. And, you know, if that's where someone feels that they are, that they absolutely need to do that, then that's fine. Having said that, I think everything you said is really important, and that's why I wanted to ask you about it, because I think that the idea of this being like an album with a sequence of songs and, you know, someone making you a playlist and wanting you to listen to it in the order that they made it or these things are all extremely important in being a mature artist. You know, the rigor extends to how you communicate after you make the pictures. So I just want people to think about that. And as a art dealer and that is my primary job, you know, I look at a lot of work, and I see it in a lot of different ways, and I don't want to see people getting caught up in that space because it's really not where I look for work. And I think there are some people who do, but I don't think it's a primary place for anyone. And I think it would be great to see people not, you know, I'd like to see people only put it in the positive, have as much reverence for their own work and the rigor that went into making it as possible. And I think your approach makes a lot of sense for a lot of reasons, so we'll just keep it there. Something else that you said in this wonderful piece with Allison. She asks you, and we've touched on this a little bit, but I want to talk about it a little bit more because it's one of my favorite subjects. She asks you if you see yourself, especially with this project, as an archivist. And I think this is such a great question. Has any of your practice become about wanting to fill holes in the archives of a specific base? It's a very good question. However, your response is no. I would more so say it's just an artistic expression. The archives are definitely there, and I think that that's more the work of scholars, historians and researchers where I am visually stitching together stories from various places and various connectivity. But that's all viewed through my own lens of expression. A lot of the people who I photograph, and within any photographic practice, it's as much about the person who's making the images as it is about the people in the photographs. So, of course, you know, I totally agree with that. Something I talk about a lot, and I think people need to embrace, even when working within the documentary tradition, that there is no such thing as objectivity. And not only that, but as a viewer, I want your artistic expression in the work of a documentary, or let's say, miracle documentary, that wonderful combination between artist and subject and life, a life, a world that I recognize, plus your inner life is so incredibly moving. So do you ever struggle with that balance? Do you have confidence now to really know where those two things, sort of how they fit together?
- [44:22]
C
Yes. I mean, I definitely kind of stay to a bit of like an old school motto with some of these pictures in particular, of not impacting the scene too much. I mean, if I was photographing somebody, you know, I might say, hey, take the cell phone off the table, or, hey, you know, you know, something small in that sense. But to try to make overt metaphor with people in using their likeness, I try to avoid a bit. You know, I try to hopefully have that metaphor and symbolism appear more naturally in the images. I think that it would, you know, just be a bit unethical to project an emotional sensibility onto a photograph that's not there. You know, you tell somebody, oh, maybe look a little more pensive or, you know. And I think in a collaborative portrait setting, that's not unethical. But in these photographs in particular, I try to photograph people as they chose to present themselves to the camera. And I think then in narrative sequencing is kind of where maybe some of those themes can come across. But I think that there is, when this kind of being the first series that's not about my own home and my own family, I did feel a sense of, you know, responsibility in how it is that I portray the people that I was photographing. And, you know, like I spoke to earlier in this interview, you know, about how the responsibility I had of not pairing somebody with something else that was, you know, heavy handed. And so there was a few things early on, like double spreads where we said, I, I can't put this person next to this image. The correlation isn't fair to have them kind of put into a context that is maybe, like I said, just more overt and heavy handed, narrative wise. But I consider a lot of the people who I photograph to be friends. Luckily, a lot of the people who I photograph I see year after year at the various events or places where I go to photograph often. And so there's not too many people who are out of reach that I make my pictures of. You know, I often will have times where I, Because I personally love sharing the photographs with people. I love their reactions and just to, you know, I might even text you some photos sometimes or, you know, it's just nice to show somebody what you're working on and to have them say, oh, nice. And so I love to share photographs with people and then when they like them, I mean that I always make the. Tell the funny story about a time that I photograph a family in Taylor, Texas, and was photographing these two young men and was kind of doing like a creative, you know, trying something new with the framing and a crop. And I sent it to the mother of the two boys I photographed and she was like, why'd you cut my baby's head off? And so, you know, sometimes people will want. Or you'll get the cowboy who says, why isn't my horse in the photo? Like, there's none with my horse, you know. But then often, sometimes people will say, hey, you photographed us at this parade. And you know, we're actually doing like, it'll be a marching band or something. They'll say, oh, we're doing new photos for the marching band. Would you be willing to do the photos? And so I'll do them for them free of charge and also make a new picture. And so the photos actually do function as a community album in that way as well. I mean, I've made graduation photos for people in the community. I've done anniversaries and it's all like a thing of like, you know, something that, you know, I often thought about in this book was. And something that I spoke about earlier with this kind of loss of family is I really began to like, find that awkwardness of like visiting with an extended relative, that feeling of kind of sitting there in like a kind of stiff living room that not, you know, many people hang out in like those moments are so imperative to family in this kind of like way we try to connect between generations. And so I really enjoyed being in those settings of being like an event photographer or, you know, visiting with someone who I've met and being able to, you know, bridge that, that gap with them. If it's, you know, a generational gap or if it's someone who I'm just interacting with on an assignment, I really enjoy those moments. And I find that it, you know, once you begin to become a little bit more comfortable in the silence of just sitting with people and enjoying each other's company, that that's typically where the best photographs come out of because that's when a lot of the tenseness that is involved in making a photograph of person. I always talk about how stiff the camera is at the an object. It turns three dimensional life into this like two dimensional rendering. And that just inherently that is a stiff format, you know, and so even someone who is comfortable with you, it can be difficult to get a photograph of them looking comfortable. As one of my mentors says, there's a bit of magic in how that's done. And so, yeah, that's how I approach that.
- [48:53]
A
I have to really go back and look and see if I'm making this up, which is definitely conceivable. But I feel like there's a Milton Rogovin. So Milton Rogovin, who Raheem is telling you guys about also just, I think this is why we end up working together, is also photographer who I revere and I actually owned some Milton Rogovin photographs at one point. And then I think after the like 2008 recession, I had to sell them, but, er, I'll get them back someday. But. So Milton used to in Buffalo, he photographed a lot of the same people over decades, which is incredibly moving for those of you who don't know this about Rogoven. And I think there's a photograph of a couple in their living room and you can see an earlier photograph by Milton Rogoven like, you know, somewhere else in the picture. And I'm thinking of that because I'm thinking about how moving and beautiful it is to, you know, have the sort of spirit you do love what you do get involved with. You know, a lot of these communities are part of your actual community. I mean, you're from Oklahoma and Texas and. But to be able to make pictures, whether it's graduation anniversary. So I'm just thinking about someday you taking a picture of someone and there being like their graduation picture that you took in the background. But I think that that's a really lovely sort of lineage and I think it's one of the really nice things about being a photographer is that you can make those gifts to people. So I think we are about at.
- [50:31]
C
Time again, just want to really genuinely, genuinely thank everybody here. It's been, yeah, so great to be able to share this book. Thank you, Sasha. Picture House. And yeah, I mean give yourself a round of applause. I'm so grateful.
- [50:50]
A
Thanks everyone. Thank you, Michael. Again, Picture House Raheem, Good night.
- [50:56]
B
Photo Work with Sasha Wolff is a production of the Photo Work Foundation. Executive producer is Sasha Wolff and the associate producer is Taylor Selzback. The show is also produced and edited by me, Michael Chovendalt in a real photo show. Music is by J. Walter Hawks. If you like the show and wish to find out more about the the foundation, please visit PhotoArch foundation and be sure to subscribe and review with all the stars on your listening platform.