Maria Carina Machado (2:28)

Well, we did that because we believe that President Trump made a unique and courageous movement towards transition to democracy and freedom in Venezuela. Actually, he's the only chief of state that has actually risked the lives of some of their citizens for the freedom of Venezuela. And we're moving ahead. Not there yet, because as you are aware, Del C. Rodriguez is part of the regime that previously destroyed our institutions and forced a third of our population to flee the country that has tortured, persecuted and killed thousands of Venezuelans fighting for freedom. But we have started this path towards transition and democracy, which is something that we desperately demand.

Piers Morgan (3:19)

But do you support the war in Iran? Are you behind the Americans and Israelis in this war?

Maria Carina Machado (3:27)

I support the people of Iran that demand freedom and dignity and the possibility to reunite their families. I can speak from the Venezuelan perspective, peers and the destruction, absolutely devastation that these regimes have brought to our people. And of course, we have denounced for years the very clear link between the regime in Iran and the regime in Venezuela. They actually turned our country into a safe haven for the operation of Russian agents, Iranian agents, Hezbollah, Hamas, as well as other criminal structures from the guerrilla and the international narco trafficking networks. They all operate freely in Venezuela with the support of Nicolas Maduro del Rodri and others are still in power in my country.

Piers Morgan (4:22)

So when this shooter at the White House correspondent's dinner went in, his list of grievances justifying his actions, he said, I'm not the fisherman executed without trial that is being taken to allude to the Venezuelan drug boats, as President Trump has called them, that have been taken out by the US Military. You know, there are people who believe that they were just containing innocent fishermen. Are those people deluded? I mean, are you comfortable and confident that the boats that were struck by American military were drug boats?

Maria Carina Machado (5:01)

I am confident that the justice will arrive at the truth. But I do believe that the resources that were coming from drug trafficking for years and years were used to sustain and increase the horrible crimes Maduro and his regime were doing on the Venezuelan people. As in any criminal structure, the way to stop it is to cut the income from criminal activities. In this case, narco trafficking, but many others, the trafficking of crime, gold, minerals, arms, and even human trafficking. For years we were asking the world to act because we, the Venezuelan people for freedom, had done everything we could. Not only, you know, protests, demonstrations where thousands were shot, innocent people were imprisoned, tortured and killed. But also we went through more than 30, 30 electoral processes. All were rigged, all were scam elections. Until finally on 2024, July 28, we were able to win under extreme conditions and prove our victory. I do believe that was the moral ground that gave legitimacy to further action against Nicolas Maduro, who is certainly the head of this criminal structure. Still, in Venezuela, as we speak, there is fear, there is terror, but at the same time, there is hope. And after January 3rd, for the first time, we're starting to see people coming out, first to churches, then to the universities and schools. Now we're seeing union leaders and workers demanding their rights and speaking freely for the first time in many years.

Piers Morgan (7:00)

There are some parallels between what happened in Venezuela and what we've seen in Iran, Notably the belief that if you decapitate the leadership, you take out the leader of the country, in Venezuela's case, Maduro, in Iran's case the supreme leader, that you can affect regime change organically from within. But we haven't seen that in Venezuela and we're not seeing it in Iran, you know, is the reality, I mean, I know that you get on well with Donald Trump, but were you disappointed that when it came to replacing Maduro, rather than trying to effect a genuine regime change, the President of the United States has allowed the regime to remain intact with Maduro's former vice president, Delsey Rodriguez as the country's interim leader. Many felt that you should have been the person that should lead the country. There should be an election and America could have forced that hand. What do you feel about that? Do you feel disappointed that that hasn't happened?

Maria Carina Machado (8:04)

Well, the President and the Secretary of State have talked about a three stage process that started with stabilizing and dismantling the repressive structures and the corruption mechanisms that exist in Venezuela. Look, when everything comes out, when the truth is learned, we'll see that Venezuela has been the largest stolen process of stealing the resources of a nation, bringing a nation to ruins. This is huge. So putting controls on the regime is a good step. And else Rodriguez is following instructions to start dismantling this repressive structure. But the third stage, it's clear, and you mention it, it's an electoral process that will bring our society back together to religitimize our institutions. Remember, we won by a landslide. Peers under extreme conditions, we organize a legion of over 1 million volunteers. That's how so much we Venus loans want freedom and dignity. We know that the only way our children will come back home is when we have a future of certainty, of democracy, of justice for all. And that's also when big investments will come into Venezuela. Venezuela is currently in the last place globally in terms of rule of law, last place. So we need to bring certainty, strengthen our institutions so that a country will bring, you know, back together with force, with strength, and take a route in which a path in which we can solve the increasing horrible economic and social situation we're living as we speak. Venezuela faces the largest inflation rate in the world. The largest, over 600% annually. Our children go only twice a week to public schools because teachers earn $1 a day. We have over 86% of Povert in the country that has the largest oil proven reserves in the world. The only way we can have true economic development is also having democratic advancement. And that's why, yes, we demand to have an electoral calendar and a date so that all these increasing social tensions can be peacefully channeled towards that process.

Piers Morgan (10:53)

And if there is an election, will you run for president? And do you expect to win if you do?

Maria Carina Machado (11:01)

We won under extreme unfair conditions. I don't think any other society in the world would have accepted those terms by a landslide with almost 70%. They don't even let our diaspora, a third of our population to vote. Now we're going to have a free and fair electoral process with international observance. And that will mean that not only it's going to be that 70%, it's going to be much higher. Certainly I will offer myself and I hope many others so that the Venezuelan people can choose freely what we want, the values, the purpose that bring us together. But I want to assure you something, some people worried or are concerned if an electoral process could bring stability or violence to our country. It's quite the opposite. These social tensions because of the economic, hard, super hard conditions that are growing and the fear that because of the regime still in power can only be channeled peacefully, civically if we have an electoral process. The Venezuelan society is organized, is determined and is united. And at this moment I want to let you know that we have a new expression, a new manifesto you were talking about. Manifesto. This is called the Freedom Manifesto that it's the voices of Venezuelan people that I invite you to share and read. Because it is the determination of our will to be free peers. Nothing will stop us. We will never give up. Venezuela will be free. We will bring our children back home and we will turn our country into a land of hope, of respect and justice.

Piers Morgan (13:00)

You're a remarkable woman, Miriam Machado, and you have enormous support around the world. And many people hope that you do end up the President of Venezuela. Let me ask you just finally about political violence. You touched on it there. Donald Trump has had several attempts on his life. This looked like a third one at the weekend with another maniac who was armed and. And trying to kill him and his team. I presume you've had a lot of death threats. You're no longer living at the moment in Venezuela. You're in D.C. at the moment. But how do you view the threats against you? You obviously have a family, you know, people who haven't been in this position, like you or Donald Trump or whoever it may be. What is that feeling like to live with the reality that there are people out there that want to try and kill you?

Maria Carina Machado (13:52)

Well, in our case, there were the government institutions. You know, one of the things that it's been hard for me to understand when I went to Oslo, now that I was in Madrid and we had this huge rally of 40,000 Venezuelans, is that actually the police was on our side. The police was defending the people. That's a new, totally new experience for me. I had been banned from leaving Venezuela for over 12 years. I had my face broken because I was hit in the middle of a session of a National assembly when I was a member of Parliament. And as you said, thousands in Venezuela have been killed, persecuted, hit. Our families have suffered so much, and we have to send them away. But at the same time, you understand that it's precisely because you love freedom that you need to work for democracy and for the unity of a nation around a purpose. And that's precisely what we did. We turned down the barriers they had built to divide our society, and we united around purpose. That's why I'm going back to Venezuela soon to accompany our people in this last stage on our very long journey for freedom. And we will turn Venezuela from the criminal hub of the Americas peers into not only the hub of energy and technology, but also prosperity and freedom. And I look forward to inviting you to this proud country that will be an example for the rest of the world.

Piers Morgan (15:33)

I would love to take you up on that offer. In January, Donald Trump said you were a very nice woman, but that you lacked respect within Venezuela, and that's why he was backing Maduro's former vice president. What is your response to that charge? That maybe you're too nice?

Maria Carina Machado (15:53)

Well, let's have the Venezuelan people speak about it and make their own decision. Let's have free and fair elections where anybody that wants to run have to chance to do it, that everyone that has the right to vote is allowed to do it. And then the Venezuelan people will decide what the future they want for themselves and their families. And that's going to happen, Piers, that is going to happen. Nothing will stop us and we will never give up. Venezuela will be free.

Piers Morgan (16:24)

There's almost a Churchillian tone to your voice there, Maria Machado. Your new book, the Freedom Manifesto is out now. It's a great read. I think you're a great lady. I wish you all the very best. Thank you very much indeed for coming on uncensored.

Maria Carina Machado (16:37)

Thank you very much.

Piers Morgan (16:39)

Well, two striking points have emerged in the fallout from this weekend's attack on the White House Correspondents Dinner. The first is that both sides of the aisle are furiously blaming each other for the political violence crisis in the US the second is that so many people think it was a hoax, a staged event to rekindle affections for an increasingly unpopular president, claims it was all an elaborate setup have come from the hard left as well as the hard right online. What's different this time is that plenty of apparently very normal people seem to think it too. And in the weeks leading up to the attack, a right wing conspiracy theory that Butler was staged became sufficiently popular that both CNN and Wired felt compelled to cover it. For his part, President Trump tied the latest incident to the scandal about the Southern Poverty Law center accused of funding extremist groups in order to say it was fighting them.

Joe Walsh (17:22)

I see these no Kings which are

Piers Morgan (17:25)

funded just like the Southern Law was funded. You saw all that. Southern Law is financing the KKK and

Gavin McInnes (17:32)

lots of other radical terrible groups.

Piers Morgan (17:35)

And then they go out and they

Gavin McInnes (17:37)

say, oh, we've got to stop the kkk. And yet they give them hundreds of thousands and even millions of dollars.

Maria Carina Machado (17:43)

They were right.

Gavin McInnes (17:43)

It's a total scam run by the Democrats.

Piers Morgan (17:47)

It shows you that like Charlottesville, Charlottesville was all funded by the Southern Law. That was a Southern Law deal too. And it was done to make me

Gavin McInnes (17:55)

look bad and it turned be out

Piers Morgan (17:56)

to to be a total fake. It basically was a rigged election. Well, we'll debate all this in a moment. My take would simply be that if everybody repeatedly blames each other and nobody really believes anything, it's going to be a lot worse before it gets better. Joining me on the panel is Christopher Ruffo. He's a senior fellow, Manhattan Institute. Joe Walsh, a former Republican congressman and host of A social contract Gavin McInnes, founder of the Proud Boys and sensitive TV host and Brian Shapiro, host of no Limits. Well, welcome to all of you. Brian Shapiro, let me start with you because you've been on many debates on this, on this show and they often follow attacks by people on the right, attacks by people on the left. To me It's a kind of stain on everyone's houses. Right? The level of violent rhetoric and violent action in American political discourse, in American politics is completely out of hands. It's out of control. And nobody seems to want to put a control valve in. Each time there's an incident, everyone expresses their outrage, but at the same time seems to want to pin the blame on everybody but themselves. You know, I would ask you maybe a difficult question. Do you think you look at your own rhetoric in the last 10 years. Can you point to times when you yourself maybe have used rhetoric that you now wish you hadn't? What is the answer here to dialing the temperature down collectively?

Brian Shapiro (19:18)

Well, Pierce, good to see you. Thank you for having me on again. I would say no, I would say different standards for different people. I would say when you're the President of the United States, you're supposed to be lowering the temperature and the rhetoric. I would say after this incident that took place the other day, what we should be talking about is mental health. We should be talking about gun control. We should be talking about security breaches. How did this person get to that area? And you know, I don't like to blame one side of the aisle, but I want both sides to come together. I don't condone violence on any side. But I also need to bring up the fact that it was the President of the United States just several months ago that was calling for the execution of six elected Democrats. So there has to be some responsibility there.

Piers Morgan (20:02)

And I would some follow the noise. Bloomberg follows the money. Whether it's the funds fueling AI or crypto's trillion dollar swings, there's a money side to every story. Get the money side of the story. Subscribe now@bloomberg.com

Brian Shapiro (20:21)

also say about the conspiracy theories that you brought up, Pierce, why is it that all these MAGA Republicans in unison an hour or two after this incident were talking about building a ballroom and why positives were put down about we need to build this ballroom. That's not going to help anybody. I don't like attacks, people blaming just the left and just the right. I think it's unfair and I think we need to figure out ways to stop these incidents from happening. Of course, this was a real incident.

Piers Morgan (20:46)

I mean, I would say, I would say, Brian. Well, on that point, yeah, that's the point I was about to make, which is I accept it was clearly a coordinated campaign to get the ballroom promoted and so on, which seemed a bit tasteless. And also, it's not like the White House correspondent's dinner could even be in the new ballroom. Cause the new ballroom only has 999 seats available and the White House correspondence dinner is two and a half thousand people. So I don't even understand that argument. It's like, what's the point, right? I actually have no problem with a bigger ballroom at the White House. It's fine. I don't see why everything should always have to stay the same. We have adjustments to our number 10 Downing street all the time. Nobody cares. It's become a big political potato. But in relation to the final point you made, I saw a similar coordinated campaign about the thing being staged at the weekend and it just blew up online with people. Staged, staged, staged.

Brian Shapiro (21:37)

Pierce, let me just unequivocally say this. Those people are idiots. I don't care whether you're on the left or the right. This wasn't a staged incident. But Pierce, the point that I was trying to make, and I think we agree on this, is that when you have all these right wing grifters and some with large accounts on social media in unison all talking about the positives of building a ballroom, there's gonna be some people in this country that think that this was all staged. Now, I'm not one of those people. I don't think you're very intelligent if you think that this was a staged. Obviously it wasn't, Pierce. But I don't think people on the right are helping themselves any with some of the statements they've made on social media either, if that makes sense.

Piers Morgan (22:14)

Christopher Ruffo, you know what's interesting is you actually get into the weeds about political violence over the last, say, 30 years, the center for Strategic and International Studies reported in September. It said in recent years the United States has seen an increase in the number of left wing terrorism attacks and plots, although such violence has risen from very low levels and remains much lower than historical levels of violence carried out by right wing and jihadist attackers. But they note that 2025 marks the first time in more than 30 years that left wing terrorist attacks outnumber those from the violent far right. And I think that is a pertinent point, which is if you go back last 30, 40 years, you'll see there's been a lot of violence on the right, a lot of violence on the left. But there's now a noticeable uptick in violence on the left. And many people, and I would be one of them, would apportion that, I think, to the ridiculously over the top rhetoric that's often used about Donald Trump and his administration calling him Hitler, calling them a bunch of Nazis and so on. You know, as I made the point many times on this show, if you keep saying that people are Hitler and the Nazis, a deranged mind is going to compute that as a direct incentive to perform a public duty, a service to the country by removing Hitler and the Nazis and expect to be applauded for it. And that's the problem. If you over egg the rhetorical souffle in that way, you are going to make impressionable minds think this is a good thing to be doing. Would you agree?

Christopher Ruffo (23:54)

Yeah, I'd absolutely agree. And we're seeing really an explosion of decentralized left wing violence that is being fueled at least in part by social media sites like Blue Sky. And in this individual case, it seems that the shooter was radicalized on Blue sky in particular by people like Will Stancil, a lawyer who has endorsed political violence. And, and this is now becoming mainstream. You see this great derangement over the past 10 years because of Trump. There have been, of course, three assassination attempts against the president. One came within an inch of being a successful assassination. And you didn't see this under President Obama, you didn't see this under President Biden. And while of course, there's left wing violence and right wing violence, the vast majority of violent incidents and political violence in particular since Black Lives Matter, since the ascension of Trump to the presidency, has been almost entirely on the left. And I don't see the left dialing back its rhetoric. I don't see the left calling back some of its troops. But in fact, it seems like it's gonna only increase from here. And maybe it's looking like a reprise of the late 60s and early 70s when you would have mass amounts of left wing violence in some years, up to more than 2,000 bombing attacks per year. If you read Days of Rage, it's a great book about this. That's my fear, is that we're going into an Internet decentralized new version of the Days of Rage from the late 60s and early 70s.

Piers Morgan (25:26)

Yeah, Joe Walsh, that's my fear. And I think AI is going to make this a lot worse because it'll become increasingly hard to be able to tell reality from fiction. And so people will have their natural political bias sort of cemented and fermented by AI in a way that I think is going to get increasingly dangerous. You know, what do you feel about this, Joe? Again, you've been on the show many times. We talked about all sorts of incidents, people naturally gravitate to their own political bias most of the time. But the rise in the volume of these incidents, the tone of the rhetoric, I mean, for Donald Trump, you know, I think what happened at the weekend was disgusting and appalling and the twisted manifesto of his suitor was a repellent to read. And he'd clearly been whipped up into thinking he had to attack Trump and his top people because of what he'd seen and heard from people, deliberately using inflammatory rhetoric, which is wrong. But at the same time, it's only a week or so since Donald Trump was brazenly posting on X about wanting to annihilate 90 million Iranians. Right. So, you know, at what point do we accept the rhetoric on all sides about almost everything has got out of control

Joe Walsh (26:38)

here? I think you nailed it at the top and you just nailed it again right there. It is out of control and it is of both sides, all sides, all of us. It feels every day like we are a nation at each other's throats. And I think the data backs that up. We're at a point in American history now where, and it didn't always used to be this way. We hate, I mean, hate the people we disagree with. Way too many of us do. And the destination, when you're on that road of hate, like you hate the people you disagree with, the final destination, Pierce, there is violence. And that's where we are right now, again, at each other's throats. Plenty of blame to go on both sides. Whenever something like what happens Saturday night happens, Pierce, right away we go to our partisan corners. I think about the night, the very night that Charlie Kirk was assassinated, the very night Donald Trump and so many others went on TV that night and blamed half the country for the murder, the entire left for the murder. Trump's not the only one that does that. We've got to stop doing that, cuz this is really, really dangerous. And look, I know Chris, Chris Ruffo is so expert on a lot of this data, but, Pierce, right wing violence over the last 20 to 30 years has typically outweighed left wing violence. We've seen a spike since Trump got elected in 24. I think a reaction to Trump and it's gotta be called out by Everybody.

Piers Morgan (28:17)

Okay, Gavin McInnes, you know, you're an interesting person to have on for this debate because I think by your own admission, when you were setting up the proud boys, you said a lot of stuff which you've now regretted saying. I think you used a lot of incendiary Rhetoric about all manner of things. No, you haven't regretted it.

Gavin McInnes (28:37)

Everything I said that sounded violent was a reaction to violence. But the SPLC and the ADL would take these quotes out of context and say, oh, he's a Nazi calling for random violence. We don't call for random violence. All the times I've said punch someone in the face, it's been a reaction to antifa punching us in the face. I mean, I don't think a lot of the pundits out there have been outside. In 2015, 2016, we were getting attacked on a regular basis. I was getting jumped, and I always said, fight back. I never called for random violence. No one on the right calls for random violence. That's a myth. This whole, like, well, both sides are flawed. No, the left is flawed and right wing violence is a myth. All of this stuff about, oh, there was a shooting at Dollar General, that guy's a nut. That's a Nazi who wants all blacks to D and go back to Africa denying the Holocaust. That's not our guys. We eschew our radicals. The left embraces their radicals. They embrace the trans. They even embrace jihad, where they go, global intifada. So we're the good guys, they're the bad guys. It's not. It's not an even keel here.

Piers Morgan (29:49)

All right, Brian Shapiro. We massively misunderstood the proud boys. They are a force for peace and harmony.

Gavin McInnes (29:56)

Excellent. Thank you.

Brian Shapiro (29:57)

Yeah, yeah. Well. Well, first of all, what an imbecile to bring up trans people. We're talking about violence. What the hell does trans have to do with what we're talking about right now? That's number one. I'm not done yet.

Gavin McInnes (30:12)

46 people.

Brian Shapiro (30:13)

I'm not done yet. First

Christopher Ruffo (30:17)

of all, committing the most mass shootings of any demographic.

Joe Walsh (30:21)

Got.

Brian Shapiro (30:21)

Got to. Let me talk. First of all of all, the mass shootings in this country, we're going years and years. Less than 1%, less than a fraction of them have been mass shooters. So you guys are lying, number one. Number two, was that antifa on January 6th, member was that. Was that antifa that was responsible for January 6th when 140 officers were beaten? Was that antifa?

Gavin McInnes (30:44)

They were beaten for shooting at protesters. They were beating for. They were beaten for going. Stop. Two Patriots died that day.

Brian Shapiro (30:52)

Guess what? Hold on.

Gavin McInnes (30:54)

Your cop, your Capitol police, your affirmative action hires killed Patriots.

Brian Shapiro (31:00)

Hold on a second. Stand back and stand by for one moment. Let me just finish this for a moment, sir. Okay. It has been proven in a court. Yeah, yeah. It was proven in a Court of law. There were over 700 people that were convicted. They had the opportunity to defend themselves. Those were right wings that gave Enrique

Gavin McInnes (31:19)

for not being there.

Brian Shapiro (31:21)

Enrique Tarrio is an imbecile. If that's the hill that you're going to die on, you have a problem, sir?

Gavin McInnes (31:27)

22 years.

Brian Shapiro (31:27)

Yeah. He was convicted of seditious conspiracy and dump. Let me ask you a question. If you beat a cop on January 6, are you a hostage and a patriot? Yes.

Gavin McInnes (31:36)

They didn't beat cops. Cops were shooting flashbang grenades into the crowd. They were going, stop, stop. Starting a riot. Capitol police were going under Nancy Pelosi's instructions.

Brian Shapiro (31:47)

Wait, I want you to. I want you to say this on Piers Morgan's show right now, on the record. Are you saying cops were not beaten on January 6th? Yes or no?

Gavin McInnes (31:55)

I'm saying cops started a riot and in a mail. That's not what I asked to get hurt.

Brian Shapiro (31:59)

I don't care what your opinion were cops carefully

Gavin McInnes (32:05)

crap on cops. You don't know what happened. You don't get outside. I'm out there. I'm there. I'm on the streets. I see this fire.

Brian Shapiro (32:12)

I'm not out.

Piers Morgan (32:13)

Let me.

Gavin McInnes (32:14)

Let me bring it.

Piers Morgan (32:14)

All right, hang on. Time out. Let me bring in Joe Walsh.

Joe Walsh (32:18)

Let me bring in Joe Walsh. Pierce, I just want to say one thing, and this is our problem. That clip right there between Gavin and Brian, that will go viral. And Chris and I just sort of sitting here and maybe we're going to talk about crime stats and compare data. Nobody will pay attention to that. But the argument and the fight right there, Pierce, between Brian and Gavin will explode because so many people tune into shows like this. And, Pierce, I think you do a great job, I really do, of trying to have conversations, but so many people tune into shows like this to see the fights. The fights, the fights, the viral clips. And then away we go down that road where we hate each other and. And violence.

Gavin McInnes (33:09)

What do you think? The American Revolution, you know, it was a fight. This country was founded on fights. They're healthy.

Joe Walsh (33:16)

I've got no problem, Gavin, with good political infighting. Yes. I've got no problem.

Gavin McInnes (33:21)

We're doing.

Joe Walsh (33:22)

The country is founded.

Brian Shapiro (33:23)

Okay, I agree. So, Joe.

Piers Morgan (33:25)

Joe.

Brian Shapiro (33:25)

I agree with my head.

Piers Morgan (33:28)

That's interesting. Go on, Brian.

Brian Shapiro (33:32)

I was just saying, listen, I respect Joe Walsh so much, and I agree with what he just said. The only point that I was trying to make to Gavin is that there's violence in all different places. Right? But if you're gonna tell us that Cops weren't beaten on January 6th. And some people, not all, not even the majority, but some people committed some very violent acts and they were convicted in a court of law. And Gavin can't just admit that some

Gavin McInnes (33:55)

of those people are not convicted for killing Ashley Babbitt.

Brian Shapiro (33:58)

Hold on a second.

Gavin McInnes (33:59)

We have one riot every 100 years. You have a riot a year for 100 years and we have to keep hearing about January 6th? January 6th.

Brian Shapiro (34:07)

Oh, I know you don't want that

Gavin McInnes (34:08)

riot that was ended the world, I

Brian Shapiro (34:10)

can tell you right now, Gavin, here's the difference. Black Lives Matter. Let's talk about that for a moment, because I know you love talking about that. Anybody who beat anybody who killed people. Gavin, Gavin, let me finish. Anybody during a Black Lives Matter protest that committed any violent acts, it's wrong. And I want them held to the highest extent of the law. I don't blame our court system. I don't blame anybody but the people who committed those violent acts. Why won't you say the same about January 6th?

Gavin McInnes (34:39)

Because BLM started the fight. Patriots did not start January 6th. BLM and Antifa started a two year fight that burned down this country, caused $3 billion worth of damage, cost 25 plus lives. The only major death, the only deaths on January 6th were Capitol Police killing Patriots.

Brian Shapiro (35:00)

Not true.

Gavin McInnes (35:00)

Yet we have to hear about this. Why aren't I hearing about. About the jihadist deaths of the past 10 years or the trans shooting of the past 10 years? We are on this. This scrutiny where we go through conservative behavior with a fine tooth comb across for January 6th, yet you guys get away with an assassination attempt from two days ago.

Brian Shapiro (35:21)

All right, hold on.

Gavin McInnes (35:22)

Okay, so Gavin sounded like your show. You guys are in bed with. We issue hours.

Brian Shapiro (35:29)

No, you're not. Gavin, quick point. I love.

Gavin McInnes (35:32)

I love synagogue shootings. I'm totally down with that.

Brian Shapiro (35:35)

Gavin, Gavin, just be quiet for 20 seconds. I just want to make a quick point here. So, guys, this is what Joe was just talking about. Joe, I don't speak for you, but I'm calling out all violence, whether it be Black lives matters or January 6th. Gavin once again called. No, you're not. You just called Everybody Patriots on January 6th, you idiot. That's what you just said. They were people. Some of them. Pick a fight with me, you're an idiot. All right, well, good luck at your clan rally tonight, Mr. Grand Wizard.

Gavin McInnes (36:00)

Perfect.

Piers Morgan (36:02)

Let me jump in there. Let me jump in here.

Gavin McInnes (36:04)

Perfect.

Piers Morgan (36:05)

I don't understand. Surely, surely, the intellectually honest. Let me come back to Chris Roofer. The intellectually honest position on this is surely that you should be able to condemn, whoever, whatever party you have an allegiance to, whatever. You should be able to condemn unreservedly all violence against police on January 6 and all violence against police or civilians or stores or whatever during any of the BLM riots. To me, that is an intellectually honest position. The moment, the moment you say, well, that side were terrible when they rioted, it was acceptable when they did it is unacceptable. The moment you start doing that, you're being intellectually, to me, dishonest. Chris.

Brian Shapiro (36:48)

Exactly.

Christopher Ruffo (36:49)

Yeah. I mean, look, I agree. I said it on the day of, and I continue to believe it. People who went to the Capitol on January 6th with the intention to riot, to destroy property, to fight with police, were wrong. It was not something you should do. And moreover, even on the practical consequences, caused a lot of problems for those of us on the political right who want to just have good policy, fight the good fight, and go for democratic changes. But January 6th is not in any way a valid point of comparison for terrorism, violence and assassination that we've seen since that time and really since 2020. And so we have a wave of political assassination that seems to be this Blue sky ideology seems to be associated with transgender ideology and seems to be associated with mainstream anti Trump ideology, the last of which, to me is the most important, because the shooter for the White House correspondence dinner, if you read the manifesto, it's not a highly technical or ideological statement. It could be something that you'd read on the Washington Post or on Blue sky at the Bulwark or on the Twitter account of someone like Will Stancil, a mild mannered, a lawyer in the Midwest who had been retweeted by this individual. And so mainstream leftist, anti Trump, no kings ideology seems to be driving a wave of political violence. And that doesn't mean that everyone who's posting those kind of ideas is responsible for it. Obviously, the shooters are responsible for their actions. But this should cause deep concern because it's unpredictable, it's decentralized. We saw it take the life of my friend Charlie Kirk. We saw it nearly take the life of our president. And I don't think that just saying, well, January 6th, well, January 6th,well, January 6th is really sufficient in any way.

Brian Shapiro (38:45)

So, Chris, can I just address Chris, Right, Joe.

Piers Morgan (38:47)

Also Chris. Well, Joe, hang on, hang on. Let me bring in Joe Walsh. I mean, I, you know, the one that really incensed me. Charlie Kirk really incensed me. Many things have really incensed me. January 6th really incensed me actually for the scenes it sent around the world about this attack on democracy at the heart of American democracy. It was awful. And anyone tries to pretend to me this was a great patriotic act is just talking nonsense. But the murder of Brian Thompson, the CEO of United Health Care, shot brazenly in the streets of New York, where I currently am. And the lionization by many on the left, especially younger members of the left, of his killer, Luigi Mangioni, the idea he was some kind of modern day Robin Hood hero for murdering a husband, a father, a son, in the way that that was done, the reaction was almost as appalling as the, as the murder itself. It's like this guy's not a hero, he's a cold blooded assassin of the kind that we used to be able to all agree should be condemned by everybody. But that didn't happen. And this is my problem is I think, Joe, that people's reactions their sensitive. We're getting numbed to this stuff to the degree that people think it's perfectly okay to say, you know what, he had a point that Mangioni. And by the way, he's good looking, isn't he? What? What? You know what I mean.

Joe Walsh (40:13)

No Pierce, I'm with you 100%. It's appalling, it's disgusting and it is every bit as appalling and disgusting as the actual act. But it goes to this point we're so effing tribal that when there's an act of political violence, it's never the responsibility of the person who did it. It's always the entire right. It's every Trump supporter or it's the entire left. I go back to the white supremacist who shot 10 black people in the grocery store in Buffalo back in 22. Not everybody on the right killed those black people, that white supremacist did. But so many on the left castigated the whole white as the whole right wing as racist.

Piers Morgan (41:04)

But.

Joe Walsh (41:04)

And the left does that as well. Again, the entire left didn't kill Charlie Kirk, a 22 year old man from Utah did. And one quick point on the data and Chris, I love following Chris on the data but there's been a spike in the last year or two. But as you said Pierce, up until 2025, I mean 2025 was the first year since 94 that left wing violence, plots and attacks outweighed right wing violence. Back since 2001, right wing violence has been more prevalent and deadlier than left wing violence. We've seen an uptick but I don't want to me, the data doesn't support a 10 year uptick. It didn't tick up during Trump's first term. Something has gone on in the last year or so, I give you that.

Christopher Ruffo (41:56)

Yeah.

Piers Morgan (41:57)

Chris, you want to say something?

Christopher Ruffo (41:59)

First of all, the data that you're referring to has been debunked over and over and over again. And so I don't think it's reliable. For those who have really looked into

Gavin McInnes (42:08)

it, why is Brian skipping in line again?

Christopher Ruffo (42:11)

Here's the critical point. The difference between the shooter that you're talking about that killed 10 people in the grocery store is that nobody on the right, nobody in a position of authority in media, in politics, anywhere else, celebrated that person, lauded that person, tried to justify the actions of that person. Whereas with Luigi Mangione, with Tyler, the shooter of Charlie Kirk, you have not only people online on the left celebrating it, justifying, rationalizing it, but in the case of the Luigi and Magione killing, you have the New York Times platforming an entire conversation, rationalizing it and justifying it. And so, look, I'm not saying the entire left is responsible for left wing inspired violence. But what I am saying is that those people in positions of authority and responsibility, people like the editors of the New York Times, should have a little bit of hesitation before they bring on people who celebrate that kind of violence, because that has consequences that gives a permission structure to radicals, to lone wolves, to psychopaths. And they're saying, I might become popular in the New York Times if I just pulled the trigger. And I think that is the responsibility of all those people in positions of power and authority on the left.

Piers Morgan (43:31)

Chris, let me bring back. Wait a second, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. I want to bring Gavin back in this whole scandal involving the splc. You said the government's indictment is a huge vindication. And you say the group were creating Nazis from scratch. The SPLC was living a fake propaganda and destroying lives in the process. Now, the SPLC designated the Proud Boys as a hate group for their bigoted rhetoric targeting women, Muslims and other groups. You say you were targeted by them and sued them in 2019. You lost a defamation suit against them, but notwithstanding that. So you've got a history with them. But you've got a history with them. It's still going. Okay, I accept that clarification. The point I would make is this. If we were talking about a report which came out which said that the FBI had been, as we know they do, had been funneling Cash to members of drug cartels, Mafia, whatever it may be, with a view to getting informants who would give information leading to mass arrests of these people and incarceration. I presume you wouldn't have had a problem with that. So when I see the defense has been put up by them, which is, yeah, this money was going to these groups, to informers, so that we could wrong. Catch the real bad guys and bring them to justice. Is that not a reasonable argument? If you think about FBI and so on?

Gavin McInnes (44:55)

Catch the real bad guys and bring them to justice. What are you, 8 years old? Are you playing cowboys and Indians? The SPLC was creating Nazis from scratch. They weren't garnering information. I'll prove, prove it to you right now. Go to the SPL site. What are the scoops they're getting? What is this? They're going to rob a bank on Friday. There was no. There was no unique information at the SPL site. It was all just, this is the group. This is what they do. All Googleable. They weren't paying them for info. They weren't paying them to stop crimes. They weren't paying for inside tips. They were paying them to exist. They weren't paid for information. They were paid for agitation. And they did it. The SPLC makes money on photographs of Charlottesville with a tiki torch. They raised $30 million from that photograph. And it's just like this right wing violence, left wing violence thing. You look up a bunch of deranged Nazis with Hispanic names, by the way, and you go, that's your side. This is our side. No, that's not our side. We're not Nazis. We don't want blacks to die. We don't deny the Holocaust. Those are lunatics. Your guys are your friends. Cole Allen is your pal. The Zizians, they have the same politics as you. You're in bed with your radicals. And our radicals, we don't even know them. They're freaks. And the SPLC and the ADL has spent hundreds of millions of dollars amalgamating us with our radicals, which is a total myth. Meanwhile, you guys warmly embrace your radicals. That is the difference. You're the one saying, my relatives can't be with me on Thanksgiving because they support Trump. We're the ones going, you're a crazy ex girlfriend. I'm so done with your crap.

Piers Morgan (46:35)

Okay, but what about some of the things you've said? You said you don't regret any of the comments you've made, but you told the New York Times in 2002, I love being white. I think it's something to be proud of. Fine. I don't want our culture diluted. We need to close the borders now and let everyone assimilate to a western, white, English speaking way of life. You said that most women would be happier at home. You previously dressed as a Nazi skinhead at a press interview. You've used the words retarded and faggots. You've said on violence. Can you call for violence generally? Cause I am fighting solves everything. We need more violence from the Trump people. Trump supporters choke a motherfucker. I mean, how does any of that taken in totality. And that's just a fragment of what you've said on record.

Gavin McInnes (47:19)

This is splc. This is right in the SPLC book. Hang on, hang on.

Piers Morgan (47:23)

Gavin.

Gavin McInnes (47:25)

20 years.

Piers Morgan (47:25)

No, Gavin, hang on.

Gavin McInnes (47:27)

Devoid of context.

Piers Morgan (47:28)

Gavin, I'm out here.

Gavin McInnes (47:29)

I'm in the cell.

Piers Morgan (47:30)

No, it's not the right now.

Gavin McInnes (47:31)

I fought a guy this morning. This morning at the gym. Gavin, this is what we do.

Piers Morgan (47:35)

Allow me to ask you a question about your comments, which is simply at the start of when I first introduced you, I said my understanding was that you now regretted things that you said and you vehemently said, no, I don't. I've just read to you a number of your positions on things and comments which many people would find pretty reprehensible. So I just think in the context of your initial vehement denial that you regret anything. Do you regret any of the incendiary.

Gavin McInnes (48:01)

What kind of discussion is this, Piers? You bring up 13 quotes that go back to 2004 and you go defend yourself. Do you agree violent person. To me, that's what the SPLC does. Do you want to get specific? Yes. I said that women would be happier at home. They would. Every time I've called for violence, it's in the context of antifa beating the crap out of us. In 2015 and 2016, they were jumping us on the streets. They vandalized my home. They vandalized my car. They spit in your face. I got pepper sprayed at nyu. I'm constantly getting jumped and I'm saying fight back. I mean, it got so bad that Joe Walsh back then switched from right to left to save himself. It was a war zone. And yeah, I said fight back. And fighting solves everything, by the way. Is that every boxing gym in the country? It's a working class slogan. You puffs.

Piers Morgan (48:51)

Okay?

Gavin McInnes (48:52)

You upper middle class palms.

Christopher Ruffo (48:54)

Look, I remember Those days in 2015, 2016, here in the Pacific Northwest. You'd have Antifa on one side, the proud boys on the other. And in a way it was the kind of mutual combat. They would go to the same place, they would fist fight, they might pepper spray one another. But there was a sense that it was where both sides had a mutual interest in fighting. And that really can't be compared to a kind of unprovoked and an unannounced assassination of right wing political figures like Charlie Kirk or a right wing president like President Trump. And so look, I personally don't want to fight anyone. I wish that the proud boys in Antifa would stay home. I don't think it's really healthy. But at the same time, I think what we're talking about now between 2020 and now 2026, we're talking about a new form of violence that is almost entirely one sided, that seeks not just mutual combat, but seeks the death of political opponents. And it's coming almost entirely from one direction. We have entered a new phase that is very dangerous that is being fomented online and digital sites and is going to cause more deaths. And we can't have people making excuses for it. And we need to have those in positions of authority on the left, including left wing media, start to figure out how to get their own radicals in line and stop celebrating them after they killed.

Brian Shapiro (50:17)

All right, I wanna address Chris real quick. So Chris, first of all, let me just say this. I'm very sorry for the loss of your friend Charlie Kirk. What happened to him was horrible. Even though I wasn't a fan of Charlie Kirk. He didn't deserve that, his family didn't deserve that. And I've called out everyone on the left that has celebrated his death. It doesn't mean you have to celebrate his life, but celebrating his death is despicable. But with that being said, Chris, you want people held to account. I rarely hear you talking about Donald Trump. Why don't we hold him to account as well? He just called on the execution of six Democrat elected officials several months ago. The buck should stop with him. He's the leader of the free world. Listen, I don't agree with anybody on social media celebrating any form of violence on either side. But there is a difference between somebody with 20 followers on social media saying horrible things about what happened to Charlie Kirk, which I don't condone. And then the President of the United States, the leader of the free world who doesn't tone down the rhetoric, even at his rallies, he said, I'd like to rough that guy up and I'll Pay for you guys and I'll pay for your legal fees. So it has to start from the top, all the way down. Chris, I'm with you. I don't want anybody endorsing any violence at any time. I'm with you 150%. But I also want to remind you that the first assassination attempt of Donald Trump was, luckily it wasn't executed, but the first bullet that went towards Donald Trump was done by a registered Republican. The second guy that on the assassination was a guy that once, he once voted for Donald Trump. So in 2016, will you also call out Donald Trump? I hear you calling out once.

Christopher Ruffo (51:54)

So is your argument that Donald Trump is responsible for assassination attempts against him?

Brian Shapiro (52:00)

Did we say that? I didn't say that.

Gavin McInnes (52:01)

That.

Brian Shapiro (52:01)

I didn't.

Joe Walsh (52:02)

Let me clarify.

Brian Shapiro (52:03)

Just own your words, Chris. Okay? This guy's not serious. He's going to call me a pussy. Just, just be quiet. You call me an idiot.

Gavin McInnes (52:11)

What's the difference?

Brian Shapiro (52:11)

Adult.

Piers Morgan (52:12)

Adult.

Brian Shapiro (52:12)

Let's talk to the adults in the room.

Gavin McInnes (52:14)

Is mature. He's juvenile. Okay, got it.

Brian Shapiro (52:17)

I'm addressing Chris right now. Okay.

Gavin McInnes (52:19)

So I know I'm mocking you as you do.

Brian Shapiro (52:20)

I'm not. I'm not blaming Donald Trump for his assassination attempts. All I'm calling out and asking for, respectfully, is people like you to call out Donald Trump for also making the temperature a little bit higher than it should be. I will call out any violence on any side of the aisle and I hold them to account first. But it also would do a lot of justice to the country if Donald Trump didn't call for executions of elected officials. If Donald Trump didn't say, I'd like to rough that guy up. If Donald Trump every single day didn't attack half the country. There is a opportunity for Donald Trump to bring the country together. My problem, Chris, is I don't think the guy who you support is capable of doing that.

Christopher Ruffo (53:05)

Yeah, I mean, look, I think you're talking about a false equivalence. Should Trump moderate his rhetoric? Fine, yeah, in some instances I think that's probably true, but I don't think that that's equivalent to people that are setting up in a sniper position and shooting at conservative commentators, shooting at an American president. And I don't think that it's fair to say that the assassination attempts against Donald Trump were somehow part of right wing political violence. Obviously, when you're trying to shoot a conservative president, you could easily categorize that as an anti right or pro left method of violence. And so I think you're trying to muddy the waters because you probably have the sneaking suspicion that your side is, in fact, the one that's out of control.

Joe Walsh (53:50)

Pierce, let me defend Ryan just for a sec. Chris, I think you continue to downplay this factor of Trump. Pierce, we've never had a president who so engages in. It's part of who he is. Divisive, cruel, and hateful language. When all the Trump supporters the last day or two said we got to tone down the rhetoric, and yet they don't talk about his rhetoric. Rhetoric, Chris, his rhetoric is despicable. You and I can argue about how despicable, but I think he's been the most divisive public figure in the country the last 15 years. You may disagree, but my God, man. It's not enough to say, okay, fine, he needs to be better. The stuff that Donald Trump says about people and annihilate entire civilization. It wasn't just the six members of Congress. Trump called for General Milley to be publicly executed. Remember, he sent out that image of a President Joe Biden hogtied in the back of a pickup truck. Chris, this stuff needs to be condemned by you and your son.

Piers Morgan (54:58)

Okay? I've got to. Okay, Joe. Joe, I'm going to leave it there. What I would say about that is I don't disagree with you. I think some of Trump's rhetoric goes way too far. I thought some of the stuff against the Iranians was appalling for the President of the United States. Agreed. Borderline.

Gavin McInnes (55:11)

He was talking about the regime. He doesn't want to, obviously.

Piers Morgan (55:17)

Well, that's what he said. So if you don't mean it.

Gavin McInnes (55:20)

No, he was, you know, he was talking about the regime. You think he wants to kill a bunch of kids? He wants to rhetorically be honest with yourself.

Piers Morgan (55:27)

He didn't say. Sorry, you be. No, actually, Gavin, you be honest with yourself, because he. I read exactly what he said, and he did not specify Trump wants to

Gavin McInnes (55:37)

destroy every human being in Iran. You honestly believe civilization.

Piers Morgan (55:41)

Yeah, I think if he doesn't believe that, he shouldn't. He shouldn't. Wait a minute, wait a minute. I think if he doesn't believe it, he shouldn't say it.

Gavin McInnes (55:51)

Well, if you're willfully, I have no trouble, then what's he going to do?

Christopher Ruffo (55:54)

Identifying some of the rhetoric about Iran was completely out of control. I have no trouble saying that. I certainly wouldn't say it. I wish the president wouldn't say it. But again, we're talking about the bullets flying through the air, and they seem to be flying for the most part in one direction. And so I'm happy to say, hey, Trump don't support this particular instance of rhetoric, but that's not equivalent to the bullets going through the bodies that are coming from mostly one direction.

Piers Morgan (56:20)

Well, yeah, I agree. And the point I was gonna make was, yes, I agree that Trump should tone his own rhetoric down, but I think a lot of the rhetoric from the left against Trump is absolutely outrageous and disgusting, too. You know, when you continually call a man a Hitler, a rapist, a pedophile, all these things, he got called on, you know, by 60 Minutes, which I thought was disgraceful for Nora O' Donnell to say that, because she would never have repeated what was in that. What was in that maniac's manifesto. If it had been Obama sitting there or Biden, she wouldn't have done.

Brian Shapiro (56:51)

Can I disagree. Can I disagree with you a little bit there, Pierce? So Donald Trump is a liable sexual abuser. Now, whether you don't believe. Whether he's a rapist, he's never been convicted of rape.

Gavin McInnes (57:02)

I understand.

Brian Shapiro (57:03)

I understand.

Piers Morgan (57:04)

Never been convicted of rapes, Never been convicted of being a pedophile.

Gavin McInnes (57:08)

Cited the pedophilia allegations, not Trump's rhetoric. He cited the pedophilia allegations. So it was you guys.

Brian Shapiro (57:15)

So. So. So. First of all, I don't know, Gavin. First of all, I don't know what you're saying. So he's a liable sexual abuser who's named 30,000 times in the Epstein files. Let me ask you guys a question. Why is Dizzain Maxwell still in a Club Med facility? Why is Donald Trump protecting Maxwell? Why is that? Can you guys please give me one logical reason? It's not because she's gonna give up names because she just.

Piers Morgan (57:35)

All I would say. All I would say. All I would say. All right, Brian. All I would say is I've spoken to David Boyes, who represented Virginia Giuffre and many of the Epstein victims, who've seen all the files and said he has seen no evidence of criminality against Donald Trump. There is against other men who may well be known to Trump, which may explain why he's so keen to shut everything down.

Brian Shapiro (57:55)

So is he a pedophile protector himself? Is he a pedophile? Is he protecting them now?

Piers Morgan (58:00)

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. But I do know. I do know that. I do know that in the manifesto this warped shooter had. He didn't say alleged or protector. He said he was a pedophile and was A Rapist and CBS 60 Minutes then repeated that as if it didn't matter, but actually it does matter. And then for Nora o' Donnell to say, oh, well, you know, you think he meant you? Of course she knew who the guy was talking about. Of course she knew it was highly defamatory. Of course she knew it was incredibly abusive to Trump to do that in an interview for 60 Minutes. And Trump understandably lost his rag. So I do think it's a two way street. There is a double standard about the way that many on the left and the media, which is very left skewed. I'm sorry, it is in America. I see it all the time. I've worked in it long enough to see it. And there is a double standard about the way Trump gets treated compared to anybody else. And should he temper his rhetoric? Absolutely. Should the others look at themselves and think, are we partly to blame for the mindset of a apparently genius level guy who was an award winning teacher? No sign of any violence. Suddenly deciding to get on a train from California to plan a massive. How has that happened? I don't know the answer, but I do know the language that he repeated in that manifesto was very similar to a lot of the bullshit language I hear about Trump all the time from the left. And that has to change too. So like I say, there are issues on it on all sides here. I gotta leave it there, guys. I'm sorry, we've run out of time. It was a really good debate, really interesting debate. I appreciate it.

Joe Walsh (59:36)

Thanks everybody.

Piers Morgan (59:36)

Thank you all very much.

Brian Shapiro (59:38)

Thank you, Piers.

Piers Morgan (59:40)

Piers Morgan. I sense Uncensored is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask for only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan Uncensored on Spotify and Apple podcasts. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain. And we'll do it all for free. Independent, uncensored media has never been more critical and we couldn't do it without you. When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters.

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