"GO AWAY From Our Land!" Former Israeli President Avraham Burg Debates Israel-Iran War

Summary

Piers Morgan Uncensored
Episode Title: “GO AWAY From Our Land!” Former Israeli President Avraham Burg Debates Israel-Iran War
Date: March 31, 2026

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Overview

This episode of Piers Morgan Uncensored centers on the controversial and intensifying Israel-Iran war, exploring its origins, moral justifications, religious dimensions, and geopolitical repercussions. Piers Morgan moderates a heated debate featuring Avraham Burg (former Israeli President), Josh Hammer (Newsweek senior editor), Rev. Franklin Graham (prominent American evangelical), and later, Yanis Varoufakis (former Greek Finance Minister). The episode scrutinizes the religious and political motivations behind the conflict, the shifting goals and justifications by leaders, and the impact on both the region and international order.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Is This War Happening? (03:29)

Piers Morgan opens by examining why the Israel-Iran war began, referencing fluctuating assertions by Israeli and American leaders, religious zeal evident in both countries, and the entrenched view of Iran as an “existential threat” to Israel. He notes a pronounced, almost unprecedented, religious support for the war in the U.S.—particularly among evangelicals.

Josh Hammer attributes the war to long-term, consistent stances by both Trump and Netanyahu against Iran:

• Trump and Netanyahu “finalized” military action at a December 2025 Mar-a-Lago meeting.
• Trump’s decades-old fixation on Iran, citing his opinions back to the 1979 hostage crisis and beyond.
• Belief that a "point of no return" was imminent—particularly regarding Iran’s potential to develop nuclear weapons or ballistic missiles (03:29–05:00).

Avraham Burg refutes these explanations:

• Claims “no clue what are the goals of the war,” pointing to ever-changing targets: regime change, nuclear projects, missiles (05:10).
• Argues the U.S. withdrawal from the 2015 Iran deal, under Israeli influence, initiated a “war of religious fundamentalism” (05:56).
• Predicts the war’s end state will be no better, highlighting leaders’ “opportunism” (05:39–06:49).

“It's a war of two opportunists that had an opportunity.” — Avraham Burg (06:17)

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2. Is This a War of Religious Fundamentalism?

Josh Hammer ridicules the “religious war” framing:

• References the Crusades and sectarian European wars to dismiss the idea that this is the “first war of religious fundamentalism” (08:09).
• Asserts dangers posed by Iran don’t require a “fundamentalist” stance, pointing to Iran’s hostility since 1979.

He concedes Trump failed to clearly articulate U.S. goals to the public but frames the war’s purpose as “neutralizing the Islamic Republic of Iran as a threat to the United States and our interests” (09:50).

Avraham Burg doubles down on the religious dimension, arguing:

• Both Trump and Netanyahu are “controlled by their base”—specifically, “Christian Zionists” and “messianic” settler groups (11:48).
• This coalition represents a “divorce from classical Judaism” and foments “patronizing,” ineffective interventions in the Middle East.

“You have here a coalition of religious, eschatological, messianic elements, a Christian one and a Jewish one, the settlers and the Christian Zionists, with support of Mr. Hammer-like individuals, as a kind of Jewish fig leaf…” — Avraham Burg (11:58)

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3. Ground Realities: Settler Violence and Media Restrictions (14:22)

Piers Morgan presses Hammer about violence by Israeli settlers in the West Bank, referencing credible news footage.

Josh Hammer denies “concrete evidence” of such violence, dismissing most reports as “manufactured” or “information operations” (14:37–15:45).
When Piers insists on the existence of such evidence, Hammer remains noncommittal but states:

• “If you can show me concrete proof… I will be the first person in the world to condemn that.” (15:04)

Piers critiques the Israeli ban on international journalists in Gaza, suggesting it's to hide potential wrongdoing (17:27).
Hammer expresses indifference:

• “I don't particularly care, to be honest.” (19:14)

This segment devolves into mutual frustration, with Piers accusing Hammer of “not caring about the truth” and Hammer defending his stance as supporting “team civilization defeating team barbarism” (19:27).

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4. Justifying Violence and The Ethics of War (22:34–26:12)

Avraham Burg articulates his value-based, non-tribal view:

• Condemns both Hamas' and Israel’s violence—neither justifies the other, nor ongoing settler crimes.
• Argues for dividing allies/enemies by values (“peace and equality”) rather than bloodlines or tribal identity.

“My partition lines are not blood lines… but value system lines. Whomever is for peace and equality is my partner.” — Avraham Burg (24:44)

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5. Religious Justifications: Franklin Graham & Christian Zionism (26:40–40:13)

Franklin Graham (from 26:40):

• Justifies “just wars” via biblical narratives (King David), equates confronting evil (e.g., Nazi Germany, Iran) as biblically justified (27:00).
• Frames Iran as the root of “all this death in the region,” calling for regime change.
• Separates Christian Zionism from direct Israeli government endorsement; sees “return to the land” (1948, modern Israel) as prophecy fulfilled (36:16).
• Disagrees with the notion that the Second Coming is contingent on Jews' return to Israel, calling it unbiblical (37:49).

Memorable Moment:

“God gives them the land to go in and take the land. He didn't give it to the Presbyterians out of Scotland. He didn't give it to the German Lutherans. He gave it to the Jewish people.” — Franklin Graham (36:25)

Piers Morgan challenges religious justifications for war, using Pope Leo’s recent statement that “God rejects the prayers of those who wage war” (29:27).

Avraham Burg responds furiously:

• Calls for “divorce” between Israeli politics and U.S. Christian Zionists.
• Argues Israelis “do not need” American protection motivated by religious eschatology, demanding, “Go away from our land. Go away from our Bible. Go away from our faith.” (41:03–43:00)

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6. Historical Context & the Gaza Withdrawal (43:37–46:31)

Josh Hammer rebuts Burg’s “peace at any cost” mantra:

• Cites the 2005 Gaza withdrawal (“fixation on peace”) as “the most catastrophic single decision” in modern Israel’s history, directly resulting in October 7th’s violence (43:37–45:17).
• Reiterates that seeking peace without readiness for conflict is naive and dangerous.

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7. Geopolitical Impact and the New Cold War (47:04–67:11)

Yanis Varoufakis discusses the wider implications:

• Argues that the assassination of Ayatollah Khamenei was counterproductive—galvanizing regime support, not weakening it (47:48–49:35).
• Criticizes Western hypocrisy on nuclear non-proliferation—Israel’s undeclared arsenal vs. Iran’s ambitions (52:26–53:02).
• Defends Iran’s backing of groups like Hezbollah as pushback against Western and Israeli aggression, contextualizing them as “lifelines” to local populations (54:04–57:18).
• Denounces the war as an “unlawful” act, led by “permanent war” strategy from Netanyahu to sustain his power (63:33–65:33).

Memorable Quote:

“Here you have an unlawful war started by Israel and by the United States. It's a criminal war. Anybody who tells me that the right solution […] is for the United States and Israel to win is essentially telling me that they have no concern at all about international law.” — Yanis Varoufakis (60:41)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Avraham Burg: “It's a war of two opportunists that had an opportunity.” (06:17)
• Josh Hammer: “Team civilization defeating team barbarism. That is the moral dichotomy of the 21st century.” (19:27)
• Franklin Graham: “God gives them the land to go in and take the land. He didn't give it to the Presbyterians out of Scotland. He didn't give it to the German Lutherans. He gave it to the Jewish people.” (36:25)
• Avraham Burg: “Go away from our land. Go away from our Bible. Go away from our faith.” (43:00)
• Yanis Varoufakis: “Here you have an unlawful war started by Israel and by the United States. It's a criminal war. Anybody who tells me that the right solution […] is for the United States and Israel to win is essentially telling me that they have no concern at all about international law.” (60:41)

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Thematic Timeline

• [03:29] Origins of the war: Trump/Netanyahu motivations and U.S. withdrawal from Iran nuclear deal
• [08:09] Is this a religious war? Historical comparisons; role of Christian Zionism
• [14:22]–[19:27] Settler violence, West Bank, and Gaza media blackout debate
• [22:34] The moral partition: Value-based alliances over tribal ones (Burg's vision)
• [26:40] Franklin Graham’s evangelical perspective on just war and Israel
• [41:03]–[43:00] Burg calls for decoupling Israeli/US religious interests
• [47:04] Yanis Varoufakis on legitimacy, public opinion in Iran, and global hypocrisy
• [62:06] Prediction: Escalation, no clear plan, and the political motives behind the war

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Conclusion

Piers Morgan deftly navigates an intense, multidimensional debate, exposing the war’s muddled aims, the deep religious and ideological rifts driving support—both in Israel and the U.S.—and the dire potential costs for peace and regional stability. The guests fiercely challenge one another on historical memory, moral equivalence, and the ethics of intervention, ultimately leaving the audience with pressing questions about leadership, agency, and the prospects for peace.

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Transcript

[Josh Hammer]

I sold my car in Carvana last night. Well, that's cool. No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong. So what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes as smoothly. I'm waiting for the catch.

[Piers Morgan]

Maybe there's no catch.

[Josh Hammer]

That's exactly what a catch would want me to think.

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Wow.

[Josh Hammer]

You need to relax. I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this table wood? I think it's laminate.

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Okay.

[Josh Hammer]

Yeah, that's good. That's close enough. Car selling without a catch. Sell your car today on Carvana.

[Franklin Graham]

Pick up.

[Josh Hammer]

Fees may apply.

[Piers Morgan]

Christian Zionist belie that Jesus Christ's second coming cannot occur until the Jewish people are gathered in their ancestral homeland.

[Franklin Graham]

God gives them the land to go in and take the land. He didn't give it to the Presbyterians out of Scotland. He didn't give it to the German Lutherans. He gave it to the Jewish people.

[Avraham Berg]

You want redemption? You want second coming of God, of Messiah? Keep out of my political scenario.

[Josh Hammer]

But in order to get peace, so sometimes it is wholly necessary to prepare for war. That is a quintessential biblical message.

[Piers Morgan]

Can we agree that the death of Ayatollah Khamenei is a good thing for the people of Iran and the world?

[Yanis Varoufakis]

No, actually, I don't.

[Piers Morgan]

Given that he's not sure Donald Trump that he'll make it to heaven, what should he be doing? A clear majority of American voters oppose the Iran war from its outset, making it uniquely unpopular in a country with which typically rallies behind military action. Situation in Israel couldn't be more different. Polls repeatedly show that over 80% of Israelis back the war. Support from Jewish Israelis is verging on the kind of numbers that can make Kim Jong Un blush. A lot of energy and debate is expended on the extent to which Benjamin Netanyahu and Israel cajoled Trump to join the war. Not so much attention is paid to how and why America's closest ally in the region now exists in a state of permanent zeal for the conflict. One view is that Israelis have been conditioned for decades to view Iran as an existential threat. They've been warned over and over that Israel can never be safe until Iran is eradicated in its current form. Another is that October 7th changed everything. Many now believe an attack is the only defense. Dissenting views must be silenced. Avramberg, a former interim Israeli president, called it a collective trauma in his op ed opposing the war and how Else can you explain? Such a deeply religious society is tolerant and even supportive of the scenes we've all seen in Gaza and the current bombardment in Lebanon. There's a surprising religious bent to the support for war in the US Too. Some troops complained that their commanders said the war is all part of God's divine plan. Senator Lindsey Graham called it a religious war that will shape the Middle east for 1,000 years and wished holy hell on Tehran. One of Trump's pastors, Franklin Graham, called for prayers to end Iran's evil empire. The pope, for his part in all of this, is not impressed. He said on Sunday that God rejects the prayers of those who wage war. So with the political and military objectives unclear and with God off limits, I return to the question many of us have been asking since the beginning. Why is this war happening and why is it happening now? Joining me to discuss, Avraham Berg, the former interim president of Israel and speaker of the Israeli Parliament, and Josh Hammer, senior editor at large for Newsweek and host of the Josh Hammer Show. Well, welcome to both of you. So, Josh Hammer, why is this war happening and why is it happening now? Let me just ask you those two questions straight off the top.

[Josh Hammer]

Yeah, sure. So, Piers, the reporting indicates that Trump and Netanyahu jointly finalized their decision to commence this military conduct at their December 29, December 30, Mar a Lago meeting towards the end of last year. Donald Trump has been consistent peers on the issue of Iran literally for nearly 50 years. And in fact, I was speaking at CPAC in Texas this past week and I said that with the exception of tariffs, there's perhaps no other single issue on which Trump has been more consistent over the decades. He literally has a clip where he is criticizing Jimmy Carter back 19 for not using military force to try to rescue the American hostages there at the embassy and to do damage to the Iranian moles in general. In 1988, he told the Guardian, the British newspaper, that he would take Carg island by force and seize it there. He tore up the Iranian nuclear deal in 2018, took out Qasem Soleimani. He has been so consistent on this issue over the years. Obviously, Netanyahu has been very consistent on the issue of Iran, too. So the two men are very much of like mind on this. As far as why they decided exactly in this late December 2020 mean to commence operation over the next few months or so, I think that remains something to be determined there. Clearly they thought that the threat was getting increasingly to the point where no country could possibly deal with it they thought they were going to cross some thresholds, whether that is in terms of nuclear capability, whether it's in terms of ballistic missiles there. But there was some measure that indicates them that at this point there is increasingly going to be a point of no return there. But I think zooming out is the more important point to make here, which that they have both viewed this peers for decades and decades and decades as they are of like mind on the issue of Iran.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay, Avram Bode, that is the position for the defence of the war. What is your response to that?

[Avraham Berg]

I simply cannot know. Why did it go to war now? Because I have no clue what are the goals of the war. I mean, every other day I hear a new target, a new goal, a new end. One time is the Hormuz, one time is toppling the regime, one time is the uranium, one time is the ballistic missiles. It's not very clear. So the only thing I know is that it's a war of two opportunists that had an opportunity. All of the sudden they realize there is an opportunity because the high echelon of the Iranians got together, let's wipe them off. And unfortunately, the reality in which we got to such a conflictual situation is a result of United States of America withdrawing from the 2015 agreement with Iranians, which was not perfect, but was much better than the situation today. And therefore, because the Americans, under the spell of the Israeli Prime Minister, withdrew from this agreement, engaged both countries in this war, which is the first war of religious fundamentalism, Jewish and Christian fundamentalism on one hand, and Muslim fundamentalism, Shiite fundamentalism on the other hand. And when they will end the war that nobody knows when and who will be whimsical at which morning, by the end of it, the situation will not be better than day one. So why did they go to war? I have no clue what they want to achieve. They have no clue what will be the outcome. The same bad thing.

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah. I mean, Josh Hammer, I gotta say I am very mystified the longer this goes on. About what America in particular. I think Israel's intentions under Netanyahu were pretty clear. He's wanted to do this for 40 years. I'm at a loss to understand why Donald Trump thought this would not be anything but incredibly difficult and ultimately could be very self harming. And the reason I say that is for all the reasons that Avram Burr just went through, the goalposts have changed so often that it makes me think that Donald Trump has been wrestling desperately for some kind of end game where he can claim victory and get their head out of here. Because he knows that what the Iranians have done is they've waged an economic war using mastrate to formus and their activity against the Gulf neighboring Gulf states to attack with military, but economically, and that has proved incredibly effective. Now, I'm not a soothsayer. I don't know how this is all going to play out, but it fills me with dread when I see that we may have a ground invasion of some sort. Does he not fill you with the same dread? I mean, this is a president who campaigned he would never do this and now he's on the verge apparently of getting thousands of ground troops involved.

[Josh Hammer]

All right, there's a lot to unpack here. The first thing I think that has to be responded to is the comical farcical notion advanced by Abraham Byrd that this is the first war of religious fundamentalism. Avraham has a lot of books and behind him he probably should actually open one, assuming that one is a decent history book. He might learn a thing or two about a thing called the Crusades that happened like a thousand years ago between Christendom and Islam. You might learn a thing or two about all the various intra Christianity wars, the wars between Catholics and Protestants, such as the Thirty Years War in the 1600s that literally tore apart the European continent, leading to the Treaty of Westphalia and the modern Westphalian nation state system there. So this is just utterly preposterous. There's obviously the premise this is a fundamentally religious war is ludicrous in and of itself. As if one has to be a quote unquote fundamentalist Christian. To think that a nuclear Iran or at least an intercontinental ballistic missile cable Iran is a threat to the United States. That is a preposterous assertion. Donald Trump is many things. He is not an evangelical or a quote unquote fundamentalist Christian. This is a guy who's campaigning in the Iowa caucuses back in 2016 who couldn't even say second kings correctly. He called it two kings. Okay? This is not a guy who necessarily is found in church pews every Sunday. A guy who actually follows American politics and doesn't just nosedive in to basically crap all over his own country like Abraham Berg is doing would actually probably know a thing or two about that. But more to the point, Pierce, here's what I will say. I have actually been somewhat critical on my own show, the Josh Hammer show of President Trump for not in those first 48 to 72 hours of the war for not actually articulating in very clear, clear language. I did say he should sit down. Oval Office, look into the came, tell the American people what are we doing here. And to this day, I actually think that would be an overdue but not too late thing to do. The American people are owed a very clear delineation of what our objectives are. From my vantage point there as an American, I think our goals actually are pretty straightforward. I think that the goal here is to neutralize the Islamic Republic of Iran as a threat to the United States and our interests. And they've been a threat literally since the very first act of the Revolutionaries in 1979. The very first act, literally the first thing they did was storm the US embassy, commence experiencing a 444 day hostage crisis that ultimately toppled the Jimmy Carter presidency. Those hostages were freed within the first few minutes of the Ronald Reagan presidency on January 20, 1981. Iran has been a threat for a very, very, very long time. And you're right, Pierce, that Donald Trump has campaigns against ending forever wars. But what he is doing here, again, take us back to 79 in 1983, Beirut barracks, all the IED, roadside bombs in Fallujah, et cetera.0506 under Dave Petraeus there. What Trump is doing is he is not starting a new forever war. He is the Mullah's 47 year forever war there. What the actual result will be, I think is to be determined. I am actually not predicting that there will be full scale, quote, unquote, regime change. There's not going to be the toppling of the Saddam Hussein statue, the de Baathification. None of that's happening there. If there will be boots on the ground, if there will be, I think it's open question whether there can or frankly even should be. It will be a very, very limited thing to seize Cargill and try to try to secure these Strait of Hormuz there. You are not going to see American troops or certainly not Israeli, Saudi, et cetera, troops marching from the Persian Gulf all the way to Tehran. That is simply not gonna happen. It's preposterous. It's not gonna happen.

[Piers Morgan]

You know, it's funny when you say something's not gonna happen so emphatically and say it's preposterous the notion of it, when almost everything on day one of this war that we thought might be preposterous are not gonna happen has pretty well happened. Avramberg, a lot of personal attack coming your way there, sort of suggesting in some form you were unpatriotic. What's your response?

[Avraham Berg]

I'm very humbled. I'm very humbled by Mr. Hammer lecture and teaching and preaching to the best of my recollection. But correct me if I'm wrong, there was no Christian Zionist during the crusades of the 11th, 12th century. And I'm not at all sure that Zionism was already born in the settler movement, that their fundamentalist, messianic, eschatological rabbi were in power at the time. But maybe I'm wrong. I'm not at all sure. Okay. Nonetheless, I must say, the, the way I see this situation nowadays is the president is not a Christian evangelist, he's not a Zionist. The president is in a journey on his own and he is a tool in the hands of his, what is called in American term, his base. The Prime Minister of Israel is also abducted by his own political base. And you have here a coalition of religious, eschatological, messianic elements, a Christian one and a Jewish one, the settlers and the Christian Zionists with support of Mr. Hammer like individuals, as a kind of a Jewish fig leaf for whatever they neither, in order to promote an agenda that, according to my point of view, is a departure, a divorce from classical Judaism, incitement towards more aggression, more violence, more bloodshed at a time in which the region is not necessarily responding very well to any kind of. This kind of American intervention didn't work for the Americans with this great philosophy in Iraq, didn't work in Afghanistan, didn't work in Lebanon, didn't work in so many other places. Why will it work with the resilient Iranian people? Why will it work with such a devoted Shiite regime? This is not the way to intervene. It's patronizing, it's childish, it's superficial, and it's mainly going alongside with a deep ignorance and lack of no understanding what the region is all about and what American intervention now is doing not just for the region, but for the world position of America itself. Make America great again. My feeling is that this war might make America smaller once more.

[Piers Morgan]

Josh hammered specifically about what's happening on the west bank at the moment. Surely you would be able to freely condemn the appalling scenes that we're seeing of these astonishingly aggressive settlers.

[Josh Hammer]

What are the appalling scenes? Pierce? I, I genuinely answer that question there. I, I. Virtually all of what I've seen are information operations. If you have actual clear footage, do

[Piers Morgan]

you think it's all invented?

[Josh Hammer]

Most of what I've seen is, is manufactured from, from NGOs and various other anti Israel Organizations there.

[Piers Morgan]

We saw any Israeli settlers.

[Josh Hammer]

We saw this throughout.

[Piers Morgan]

I said, just to be clear, then you don't. You don't believe there are any Israeli settlers.

[Josh Hammer]

That's not what I said.

[Piers Morgan]

Palestinians on the West.

[Josh Hammer]

Not what I said. Literally not what I said. I'm saying if you can show me concrete proof of innocent Arabs who are being attacked by Jews in Judea and Samaria for no reason whatsoever other than the fact they're Arabs, I will be the first person in the world to condemn that.

[Piers Morgan]

So you don't think there is any evidence of any attempt at new settlements going on on the West Bank?

[Josh Hammer]

Now you're completely changing the conversation.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, tell me whether you do or not.

[Josh Hammer]

Now you're asking. Well, now you're asking me. A separate conversation. Now you're asking me. There is the Israeli government building new Jewish homes in Judea and Samaria. You just totally changed.

[Piers Morgan]

The Israeli settlers committing acts of violence against Palestinians on the west bank to take their land.

[Josh Hammer]

I have seen zero concrete evidence of an innocent Arab being attacked by a Jew. In James Married, there are a lot of scribes.

[Piers Morgan]

Have you talked about the former Israeli prime minister? Because I had him on the show last Wednesday, I think it was.

[Josh Hammer]

If you want to play a clip right now and provide me context there and show.

[Piers Morgan]

No, I'm simply saying that they were

[Josh Hammer]

not robbing stone or any kind of.

[Piers Morgan]

Tali Bennett, a former Israeli Prime Minister who wants to be Prime Minister again.

[Josh Hammer]

Naftali Bennett formed a government with the Muslim Brotherhood. He is the. He's the last person in the world to.

[Piers Morgan]

You see no evidence. You don't believe Naftali Bennett, you don't believe Avraham Berg. It's kind of convenient. This reminds me a little bit of the attitude towards what happened in Gaza where the Israeli government under Netanyahu. Well, hang on, let me finish. The Israeli government.

[Josh Hammer]

You don't Let me finish. What I said is that if you can actually show me an instance, a single instance of a Jewish man or woman, I suppose, just attacking an Arab for no reason whatsoever, I will be the first to condemn it. I am telling you that since this happened, there, there was the lie that Israel deliberately bombed the Catholic Church in Gaza. There was a lie that the church of Taba, it was a whole information operation. Tony Bedron wrote an entire 3,000 word takedown for Tabla magazine. It didn't happen. There was a fire next to an old church building in Taba. There, in the heart of the biblical heartland of Judea and Samaria. There. The church was not touched. Most of this is completely fabricated. There are false images now. There's AI. It is spread like wildfire throughout social media. If there are actual instances of Arabs being attacked, I will be seen.

[Piers Morgan]

I have seen literal videos of it happening which have been verified.

[Josh Hammer]

If it's happening, I condemn it. But I just don't know it's happening.

[Piers Morgan]

Because you don't want to see it happening because you don't want to believe it's happening.

[Josh Hammer]

That's why.

[Piers Morgan]

To finish my point before you interrupted me, my point about Gaza is that international journalists are still banned by the Israeli government from operating freely in Gaza. And we all know why.

[Josh Hammer]

That must be Al Jazeera. Terrorists are banned. People who are in bed with Al Jazeera, who are horrible.

[Piers Morgan]

International media are currently still banned from operating freely in Gaza despite there having been a ceasefire of sorts for many months. Why do you think the Israeli government doesn't want war correspondents from around the world on the ground in Gaza, do you think?

[Josh Hammer]

Pierce, I don't work for the Israeli government. I'm American. Smart guy, Frank. Frankly, the United States currently.

[Piers Morgan]

Could it be they've been doing things which they don't want the world to know?

[Josh Hammer]

Okay. All this has been. I know facts are very hard to come by on Piers Morgan uncensored these days, but unfortunately, facts don't correspond to your particular narrative. John Spencer, who is the head of Urban Warfare West Point, has crunched all of the relevant numbers and has shown time and time again that the civilian to combatant ratio in Gaza since the war started on October 2020.

[Piers Morgan]

So why don't you let the journalists in there? If it's been the activities of the most moral army in history, as I keep hearing, if the IDF has done nothing wrong, been completely blameless, been like at the top end of morality in what they did in Gaza. Fine, fine. Okay. Let the journalists in from around the world.

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Why don't you go.

[Piers Morgan]

Why don't you go properly investigate?

[Josh Hammer]

If you care that much cover, why don't you personally fly in there and

[Piers Morgan]

tell us there is a reason to do that? The Israeli government has banned the world's media from going and I think that

[Josh Hammer]

you should personally challenge that, frankly, the use of your time. There will be a better use of your.

[Piers Morgan]

I have done this repeatedly. I'm wondering whether you would condemn it.

[Josh Hammer]

I don't particularly care, to be honest.

[Piers Morgan]

You don't care that journalists should be allowed to investigate what may have happened in a war zone?

[Josh Hammer]

I care about right pursuing over wrong.

[Piers Morgan]

I don't think you do, though, Josh. Do you just care about your side? You don't care about the truth.

[Josh Hammer]

No, Pierce, I care about team civilization defeating team barbarism. That is the simple that. That is the moral dichotomy of the 21st century. It's been the moral dichotomy of black versus light, of good versus evil for millennia. There. I know that. The moral obfuscation on this show on a day in da basis tends to rotate brains and minds, make people think,

[Piers Morgan]

why you want it.

[Josh Hammer]

Only thing that motivates me on a day.

[Piers Morgan]

Why are you here?

[Josh Hammer]

To present the team you're now doing.

[Piers Morgan]

The Ben Shapiro playbook. You know, anyone that criticizes the Israeli government must be anti Semitic. Must be rotting brains. This is Jerry Springer. This is a circus. I've got you on to debate this. To debate this.

[Josh Hammer]

I didn't call you anti Semitic.

[Piers Morgan]

No, no, but it's coming because it's the Ben Shapiro playbook.

[Josh Hammer]

That any criticism is not that Ben Shapiro has not called you anti Semitic.

[Yanis Varoufakis]

God.

[Josh Hammer]

Ben Shapiro has called you dumb and stupid or some variation thereof. Okay. I mean, like he has called your show Jerry Springer. He has not called you anti Semitic. He has not done that because he has no reason, I have no reason for thinking that you are good.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, I'm glad we can cross that bridge. I'm glad that you come on a show that you think rots people's brains because why would you do that? I don't get it.

[Josh Hammer]

It's a fair question, to be honest.

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah, well, why don't you just leave?

[Josh Hammer]

I could, but I'm here to.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, what are you doing here? If you think it rots your brain, why would you risk rotting your brain?

[Josh Hammer]

Every so. Every so often you have a guess who makes a modicum sense. And I thought this would be a good idea.

[Piers Morgan]

You mean someone that agrees with you and doesn't want to criticize the Israeli government? I get it. Let me go back to Avramberg. See, this is my problem, Avram, with all of it, is that if you attempt to be fair minded, to be balanced about the coverage as my show has been, you invite guests on who all have different views from both sides and we have passionate debate is that unfortunately, increasingly there is an utter intransigence on behalf of the pro Israeli government people I have on as we're seeing now with Josh Hammer, where there's nothing to see here. He's not seen evidence of anything going wrong on the West Bank. Therefore it can't be happening.

[Josh Hammer]

He doesn't Want to show it to me?

[Piers Morgan]

He doesn't care that journalists aren't allowed into Gaza to do their work. He doesn't care about that. None of it suits his agenda. That's my problem with it. Avraham.

[Avraham Berg]

Well, I'm sorry that you stopped talking with him. I'm ready to give you all the time needed. I mean, he needs much more rope in order to hang a Laughter because there is a heavy weight to hang. I will say intellectually blind people cannot see real realities. But since I'm not sitting in Washington, I'm living here, next door neighbor to the settlements with my families unfortunately living there. I would like to address some of the things that you discussed between you two. The first is the framework of the situation is not just the atrocities that now settlers are doing on behalf of whatever biblical commandments supported by members of Knesset, members of cabinet and spiritual leaders, chaplain, rabbis, etc. It's a larger one.

[Josh Hammer]

Can you name a single biblical commandment that you believe commands to kill?

[Avraham Berg]

I will be more than happy. I will be.

[Josh Hammer]

There is not one.

[Avraham Berg]

It will make me very, very happy if you hear what I have to say. Because you know what you think, but you have no idea what I have in mind.

[Josh Hammer]

So maybe speaking of biblical injunctions, innocent human beings. That is a lie. And you are now desecrating the religion to a judge subscribers. I'm not gonna let you do it.

[Avraham Berg]

Mr. Hammer. Mr. Hammer, somebody once said to somebody like you, you listen only when your mouth is open. Unfortunately, I'm not well trained in this kind of communication. So just make up your mind how you want to communicate.

[Josh Hammer]

And apparently desecrating your own purported religion.

[Avraham Berg]

Are you done? Are you done or you need some more time? You okay? Relax. Okay. October 7th is a watershed. At what sense? Everything that Israel done to the Palestinians in hundred years of a conflict, atrocities and wrongdoings does not justify the first measure of atrocities that Hamas performed and exercised against innocent Israeli civilians. And at the same time, whatever Hamas did, crimes against humanity at that awful dreadful day does not justify the immoral crimes against humanity and war crimes that Israel performed in Gaza ever since. None of the two above, the two criminal sets that do not balance each other, do not nihilate each other, justify the crimes done under the supervision and open eye of the government, its cabinets and its members of Knesset in the occupied territories with the very passive presence of the idf. This is the reality. Now from my point of view, I'm not never automatically support and justify the unjustifiable tribe. For me, it's not the Jewish automatic collective versus the automatic Palestinian collective. All of us versus all of them. Oh no, it is some of us who believe in peace, believe in equality, believe in respect the other, even when the other is the enemy. And some of them, Jews and Palestinian alike, who believe in religious fundamentalism, eschatological missions and commandments that the Palestinians are the reincarnation of the Amalekites or whatever it is. And therefore some of the Jews in the occupied territories are my enemies. And some of the Palestinians all over the place, Middle East, West Jerusalem, East Jerusalem, occupy territories in Gaza who still believe in peace armor partners. Because my partition line are not blood lines, are not tribal lines, are not collective lines, but value system lines. Whomever is for peace and equality is my partner. Whomever is for the annihilation of the other, be it a Jew who wants to annihilate them or be it a Palestinian who wants to annihilate us, is my enemy and therefore my attitude to what the settlers are doing in the occupied territories. These are crimes. The government that support them is a criminal government, though I'm a democratic citizen who vote for it and want to bring it down.

[Piers Morgan]

Just hold your response to that, Josh Hanmack, because just going to have a little break before we come back to you guys because it's been a fascinating debate. I want to keep it going, don't get me wrong, but as we've been hearing, there are claims that Christian Zionism is a driving force behind the Iran war, exploiting divisions between Protestant and Catholic leaders. And I'm joined now by the Reverend Franklin Graham, president of Samaritan's Purse and close ally of President Trump. Franklin, welcome back to Uncensored.

[Franklin Graham]

Thank you for having me.

[Piers Morgan]

We've just had in his Palm Sunday homily the Pope, an American obviously declaring that God rejects the prayers of those who wage war. Would you agree with him?

[Franklin Graham]

Oh, I don't know. You know, David, King David, he prayed that God would train his hands how to fight his enemies. We know that God does take sides in history, certainly as it relates to biblical history and the Bible. God gave great favor to David and wisdom to David is every time he went into battle. So we know that there are what I believe appears to be just wars. And you take the Second World War, Hitler, there's close to 70 million people died during the Second World War. And so to fight that evil, I believe it was the right thing to do, destroy and bring the Nazis to an end. And also the Japanese regime. And I think today with the Iranians they are a danger to the whole world, not just the Middle east, but the whole world. And I know you've been talking about Gaza, but all of this comes down the 70 some thousand Palestinians that have died in Gaza. This is a result of the thousands of people that have died in Lebanon as a result of Iran. The people have died in Yemen are a result of Iran. And the Iranians don't care one thing about the Palestinian people, in my opinion. They just want to kill the Jews. And they don't care about the Lebanese people. They just want to kill the Jews. Same thing about the Houthis. They don't care about the Houthis, they just want to use them to kill the Jews. And so this regime, there needs to be a regime change, in my opinion. And I hope that and pray that that will take place. And the fastest growing church in the world is in Iran. They say there's between a million to 3 million new Christians a year in Iran. So the church is growing there. And so God is working in Iran. And I want peace. I don't want war, I don't support war. But I do believe at times there is justification when you are fighting evil. And I believe the Islamic Republic of Iran, I believe is an evil government. And so I hope there is a regime change. I really do.

[Piers Morgan]

So what is your message then to Pope Leo? Because he couldn't have been clearer. God rejects the prayers of those who wage war. That's a strong statement. And he is the first American Pope.

[Franklin Graham]

Well, I'm not Catholic, so I know that I certainly have respect for them. You worship the same God differences? Well, we do, but we certainly come from different perspectives. Peers as an evangelical.

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah, listen, personally, I'm a Catholic. I'm just curious that on that specific point, for the Holy Father, Pope Leo, to say emphatically that God rejects the prayers of those who wage war, it seems I'm going to put words in your mouth, but that you couldn't disagree more, that you believe that and correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe that God does not reject the prayers of those who wage war.

[Franklin Graham]

Well, he didn't reject David's prayers, that's for sure. And so I think that Pope Leo, maybe he's putting that in a modern context, but if you're taking it from a biblical context, no question God heard the prayers of King David as he went against his enemies. And God gave him wisdom and guided him and directed him in his hands of war.

[Piers Morgan]

We recently had an interesting revelation from President Trump on Sunday he shared a personal letter from you from last October after he publicly said he wasn't sure he would make it to heaven. And in it, you congratulated him on the Israel Hamas ceasefire and the return of the Israeli hostages, called his leadership historic and praised the developments as an answer to much prayer. You then turn to spiritual matters and told Trump that no amount of good works, prominent success, could secure a place in heaven and that the only way was through faith in Jesus Christ. So given that he's not sure, Donald Trump, that he'll make it to heaven, what should he be doing?

[Franklin Graham]

Well, I think, first of all, I think he might have said that in just a little bit, because I talked to some other people that were close to him and they thought that it may have been a jest. But just in case it wasn't a jest, I wanted to make sure he understood that Jesus Christ came to this earth to save us from our sins, that Christ took our sins. He shed his blood on a cross. He died, he was buried. But on the third day, God raised him to life. And God will forgive our sins. If we're willing to accept the price that Christ paid for our sins when he died on the cross, we have to accept that by faith. And it's through Christ and him alone. There's not many ways to God. There's only one way to God, and that's through Jesus Christ and him alone. And so I just wanted to make sure that he understood that and knew that, that he could be confident that he was bound for heaven. If we confess our sins and repent and by faith, believe on the name of Jesus Christ, we can have that confidence, knowing that we will be received by God one day in his presence. But it's not because we've done anything good, Piers, because what Jesus Christ did, he took Franklin Graham's sins and he died for me on that cross. He shed his own blood for me. So I would have to die. I would have to shed my blood. He's a God who died for me. I don't have to die for God. He died for me.

[Piers Morgan]

But have you ever heard.

[Franklin Graham]

Have you ever heard by faith?

[Piers Morgan]

How long have you known Donald Trump?

[Franklin Graham]

Oh, maybe 15 years or more.

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah. So I'm 20 years now. Have you ever heard him confess to a sin or even come close to confessing to any sin or even any wrongdoing or even admitting a mistake?

[Franklin Graham]

I've had some private conversations with him peers, and it wouldn't be proper for me to reveal those private conversations. I just don't do those kinds of things.

[Piers Morgan]

Wow. But you're sort of hinting that he has confessed to sins.

[Franklin Graham]

Well, again, I've had some private conversations with him and I'll just leave it there.

[Piers Morgan]

Fascinating. Let's just turn back briefly to the Iran war, one of the more controversial explanations for it, which many American Christian Zionists, they've been labeled have commented on that somehow this is part of God's divine plan. Senator Lindsey Graham said in March, this is a religious war and we will determine the course of the Middle east for a thousand years. Pete Hegseth, the secretary of war, has recently stated the US Is fighting religious fanatics who seek a nuclear capability in order for some religious Armageddon. And during a Pentagon prayer service, he reportedly called for overwhelming violence in the name of Jesus Christ. And most notoriously, the US Ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, when asked if it would be acceptable for Israel to control the entire Middle east region Based on Genesis 15, he replied it would be fine if they took it all

[Josh Hammer]

and

[Piers Morgan]

then said this about Israel to Tucker Carlson. Let's take a look.

[F]

Here's the point. We're talking about Christian Zionism, the idea that as a Christian, I believe in both the Old and the New Testament. Why wouldn't I? I'm a person of the book. There are 80 million evangelical Christians in the United States. What makes us who we are is our adherence to the scripture, our belief that the Bible, all of it, not part of it, but all of it, is the word of the living God.

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Yeah.

[F]

So if I believe in the Old and the New Testament, I do believe that there is a very specific call to the Jewish people that started with Abraham. And he called them out of what is now modern day Iraq, said, come where I send you. He came. This is the land. Genesis 12:3. He says, I will bless those who bless you, curse those who curse you. In Genesis 17, he looks out of the world. He says, look, and this is where I'm giving you the land. I think it's since that time there have been people living in this land.

[Piers Morgan]

I'll get your response to that in a moment. But just to clarify this, Christian Zionists believe that Jesus Christ's second coming cannot occur until the Jewish people are gathered in their ancestral homeland. And a lot of people think that's no different from the religious fundamentalism of something like the Islamic regime in its nature. What is your response to what Mike Huckabee said and what do you feel about this Christian Zionist belief?

[Franklin Graham]

Well, you know, I'm not Quite sure when we talk about Christian Zionism. But let's just go back to what Mike Huckabee was saying. God gave the land to Abraham, and that promise went through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and Jacob to his 12 sons. And that's where you get the 12 tribes and they go to Egypt and then come out of Egypt Several million people 400 years later. And God gives them the land to go in and take the land. And so that has been that was given to them by God. He didn't give it to the Presbyterians out of Scotland. He didn't give it to the German Lutherans. He gave it to the Jewish people. And that's their land. So I don't question that. And I believe they're coming back to the land as a fulfillment of prophecy in 1948 when the nation of Israel was reborn. So I just believe that is a fulfillment of prophecy. But that does not mean that the government of Israel is doing the work of God or anything like that. I don't believe that it is a secular government. Most of them in government don't believe in God. So it is a secular country. But it is still a fulfillment of prophecy. And I believe as we get to in later days, there will be many people in Israel who will come to know the Messiah, and that is Jesus Christ. I believe that will come one day.

[Piers Morgan]

And to that specific point, that Jesus Christ's second coming cannot occur until Jewish people are gathered in their ancestral homeland. What would you say to that?

[Franklin Graham]

Well, I don't see that in the Bible. It doesn't say that he's not going to come back to the ancestral homeland. I'm not sure where that thought comes from. It certainly doesn't come out of the Bible.

[Piers Morgan]

Just finally, frankly. Graham, you told attendees at the Conservative Political Action Conference CPAC on Thursday that it's important that we do everything we can to get President Trump re elected, which caused a bit of an earthquake because everyone assumed he's two terms and done like every other president. Do you know something we don't? Is this one of the sins he's confessed to you in private?

[Franklin Graham]

That was a slip on my part. I meant to talk about we need to get in the midterms. People that support President Trump, we need to gethelp them to get elected because otherwise he's going to be hamstrung if he doesn't have Washington. The politicians there support him and backing his policies. I don't agree with everything that happens in Washington, but President Trump is the greatest president in my Lifetime. And I thank God for him and I pray for him. And I would hope everybody who is watching your program right now, Piers, would pray for the president and pray for you. You've got a great voice. You influence a lot of people, Piers. And we just thank God for your position and the debate that you bring to the process. You know, you talk about Gaza. We've been working in Gaza, and it is difficult. It is the toughest place we've ever had to work, Piers. It is so dangerous. And I know the Israelis keep the media out of there, and I don't understand all of that, but they keep a lot of us that do relief work out of there as well. But we've got partners inside of Gaza that we're able to give aid to and they redistribute it. But it's been very difficult, very tough. And the people of Gaza have suffered probably more. Right now, there's more suffering in Gaza maybe than any place in the world. And my heart goes out to them and I pray for them. And it's just tragic that this happened, but it's still. It's a very dangerous place, even for us that do relief work. We have to be very careful. We get a lot of threats.

[Piers Morgan]

Reverend Graham, always good to have you on uncensored, and I appreciate your offer of prayers. I'll take all the prayers I can get, frankly. But thank you very much indeed for joining me.

[Franklin Graham]

Thank you. God bless you, sir.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, let's go back to Josh Hamra and Avraham Bergman. I'll just ask you quickly, Abraham, because I can see you shaking your head there. What was your response to what you heard from Reverend Graham?

[Avraham Berg]

I mean, the longer it lasted. I have more responses. First, I cannot tolerate shallowness. He spoke about King David. King David, yes, was a warrior, but he was not explicitly in the Bible, was not granted to build the temple for the good Lord, because, as the prophet said, your hands are full of blood. Bloody warriors are not entitled to build the house of God, the house of peace. This is the real King David, not all of these Disneyland images of him. The second is, I heard Pope Leo and my heart went for him. Not because the religious, the religion, not because Catholicism, because he took the position of prophet, of Nathan, the prophet who stood against power and spoke against it and said, you cannot do it this way. It is not accepted. It's unethical. It goes against the meaning and the essence and the substance of being a spiritual person. And for my shame, the betrayal of rabbis in Israel who do not stand up against all of these crimes and support the blood. And support the bloodshed and the warmongering. That's a shame on Judaism. And last but not least, do me a favor. Do me a favor. You want redemption? You want second coming of God, you of Messiah. Everything is good. Keep out of my political scenario. I do not want to die in your magadon. I do not want your kids to be sacrificed on the folly walls of Israeli corrupt prime minister. I do not need your protection. Not this kind of protection. Who asked you to sacrifice me? Who volunteered to be the blood on the altar of your future redemption? I don't want this alignment with you. I want you to divorce from us. I want you out of our life. Stick to your president, Sanctify him, make him a saint. Do not interfere with Jewish faith. We shall defend ourselves. We shall protect ourselves. And the best protection and the best ever proven shield against all of this hatred is to have agreements, negotiation. As tough as they are, they are much better than wars. I do not know even one person who died because of peace. I know so many people who were killed. Friends of mine, family members of mine who were killed because of holy wars. So don't impose them on us. Go away from our land. Go away from our Bible. Go away from our faith.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay, let me go to Josh Hammond because you've been pulling faces in the last few seconds so you clearly don't agree with what you're hearing.

[Josh Hammer]

Yeah, it's like talking, this is like talking to a naive kindergartner who has literally lived a collective five to six years of existence there. I mean my interlockier has a shirt on that he is wearing that says peace. And he is simultaneously saying that a fixation with peace without having to prepare for war, as indeed King David did. We know that from the opening line of Psalms chapter 144. He's saying that this fixation on peace has never led to war. And he really ought to look at the situation in Gaza. Gaza is the quintessential example of an over fixation on peace at all costs, any and all costs of just giving up land and let them build the Singapore right there on the Mediterranean there, leaving the greenhouses in place there, tearing out the Jewish cemeteries. This, the, that the, this, this entire debate was had in Avraham's country, not in my country 25 years ago. And it was the most catastrophic single decision in the entire history, in the entire Modern Post 1948 History of the state of Israel pulling out of Gaza. This fixation on peace at all costs, without having to prepare for the sober reality of living in the real world. And he mentioned Disneyland, if not this Disneyland, magical kingdom, quixotic utopian world. Dealing with what happened there back then is what led to October 7th. Directly. Directly there is an, an unavoidable line, an ineluctable, inescapable line from the Ariel sharon withdrawal in 2005 to October 7, 2020. And that is a result of this over obsession with peace. Peace is always, always the end goal. Always. The prophets, you mentioned the prophet. The prophets speak of peace all the time. It is always the end goal. And God willing, eventually we will see peace truly in our time there. But in order to get peace, sometimes it is wholly necessary to prepare for war, which is exactly what Franklin Graham was saying there. That is a quintessential biblical message and it is a fundamentally correct mess. And that is exactly what Donald Trump and Ben who are doing right now. When it comes to a regime that has been chanting death to America and death to Israel for 47 years, again, taking Abraham's country out of the equation for a second here and just focusing on my own country, I think it's important to emphasize yet again, Pierce, literally the first thing the revolutionaries did was storm the US embassy. This entire regime for 47 years has impredicated, arguably even more so than their obsession with the Jews and with Israel, arguably even more so, has been observed. Obsessed with the United States as what they call the Great Satan, as the font of all that they seek to oppose, seek to subjugate, seek to destroy. Their entire existence has been predicated on trying to destroy and kill Americans for decades and decades and decades. Donald Trump again is not starting a new forever war. He's attempting, he is attempting and I would like a little more clarity exactly as to what exactly are the objectives where the next steps. I've been calling for that pretty openly, actually on my show. I am very happy to call it Donald Trump. And I don't agree with what he says and does there, but fundamentally what he's seeking to do here is totally just which is to end this 47 year forever war that the mulls of Iran started in 1979.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay, we're going to leave it there. I appreciate you both coming on. I hope your brain has survived the rotting that it's experienced. Josh Hammer. I guess we'll have to see. Fears are growing amongst my audience for your rotten brain, but I have every confidence that you'll be even sharper for your experience on unsensing. Thank you both very much.

[Josh Hammer]

Thank you, Piers.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, joining me now is the economics professor and former Greek finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis, who says that the current hot conflict could be a part of a new cold war. Yanis, welcome to Uncensored.

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Thank you, Piers. Thank you very much.

[Piers Morgan]

I've got three. We probably agree, I think, about the big picture here, which is from what I'm looking at, this looks increasingly like a massive miscalculation by the United States, almost certainly pushed into it by Israel, who have a different agenda here, I think. But notwithstanding that, it's interesting when I've been listening to the various debates between the various factions, there are some sort of fundamental questions which are just worth asking you and then we can get to the bigger picture. And they're these. Can we agree that the death of Ayatollah Khomeini is a good thing for the people of Iran and the world?

[Yanis Varoufakis]

No, actually I don't. Given that it was the result of an assassination from the air by Israel and by the United States. Let me put it this way. Take it from the perspective of people in Iran who were opposing the ayatollah, who were opposing the regime, who were protesting for years, since, remember, 2018, even before that, the brutality that was practiced, especially against women. What happened was essentially the regime was given a major boost, a major morale boost. It became far more legitimate because, you know, Piers, you and I have different backgrounds in the sense that I grew up in a very right wing dictatorship. My father was abducted in the middle of the night by the secret police. My mother's brother was court martialed. You know, people I know were tortured back then. We hated the regime in athens in the 1960s and 70s. But I tell you that if any foreign power, Soviet Union, Britain, you know, whoever, if they bombed us and killed the person we loathed, who happened to be ruling the land at the time, you know, we would have felt just awfully conflicted, firstly because we would be upset that the government which we opposed was given the legitimacy that goes hand in hand with any government that is being taken out by a foreign leader unlawfully. And secondly, because the supporters of the regime, and they were supporters of the regime when I was growing up, felt justified, morally justified to suppress us. So, no, I don't think it's really

[Piers Morgan]

interesting, Yanis, you say that because I was, I was mentioning last week on the show that I had a guy in a local cafe I go to in London who was Kosovan and he had a couple of, it was his cafe and he Had a couple of Iranians came in who are not supporters of the regime but mirrored almost exactly what you've just said, that they, the moment that their leader was taken out, that the country was attacked, that American Israeli bombs rained down all over Iran, that they found themselves instinctively wanting to rally behind their country. And he said he remembered the same phenomenon happening in Kosovo with Miloevic, that not obviously not everyone, there were a lot of people that hated him before, during and after his life, but there were certainly a constituent of Kosovans who were very anti Milosevic. But once NATO attacked, they found themselves rallying behind the country and therefore the leader as well. Which I think is really playing to what you've just articulated. Yes.

[Yanis Varoufakis]

And indeed, if you think of it now, suppose you are a progressive, even somebody who's left wing and who opposes the government of the New Khomeini, Khomeini Jr. What is your choice really now as the bombs are raining down on you really? I mean, realistically, the choice is either this government, this regime, a system that actually works. Not very well, but it works. I mean, it's not Libya, it's not Syria, it's not a failed state. And Libya or Syria, you know, the alternative now is not some functioning liberal Western democracy or some kind of socialist paradise which is, you know, my side of politics would have liked. It's a choice between a functioning government and Iran which is torn apart like Iraq was after the George W. Bush invasion. So let's cut to the chase. An illegal war that is brought by a foreign power which by the way has absolutely no moral authority to talk about democracy in Iran because It was in 1953 that the CIA and the United States overthrew the only functioning liberal democracy that Iran ever knew. So if you take into consideration firstly, who it is that is supposedly bringing democracy by bombing the place into smithereens, and secondly, what we just discussed, the answer to your question is no, it wasn't a good thing.

[Piers Morgan]

The second question people say is, is it important? Do you think that a theocratic fundamentalist Iran isn't allowed to have a nuclear weapon for the sake of the region and the world?

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Well, look, I am a very fierce opponent of nuclear weapons. I was, you know, back in the time when I lived in Britain, I was a paid up member of cnd. So I'm never going to support anyone's right to own or to develop a nuclear weapon. But we live in a world where, you know, the west is so complicit and so duplicitous on the one hand, you have Israel that has violated every nuclear proliferation or anti proliferation treaty there is. Nobody's talking about the nuclear weapons that Israel has.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, they don't even admit having them, do they?

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Indeed. So they've broken every rule and regulation. Nobody's talking about it now. Piers, I don't think that Iran wants to develop a nuclear weapon. I mean, the previous Khomeini, the elder, the late Khomeini, I should say, took out a fatwa. I believe it was genuine. My understanding of what the Iranian government wants is they want to maintain their sovereign right to enrich uranium so that if needs be, they can have a bomb, but they don't want to have a bomb because they've seen what happens.

[Piers Morgan]

Isn't that a large leap of faith, though, in a regime, which, I mean, at best, this is a regime. It may well be a functioning regime, but it's unbelievably repressive to its own people. I think it's undeniable that it has funded and provided arms to Hezbollah, to the Houthis, to Hamas over the last two decades more. And this is a very unpleasant regime which has promoted terrorism around the world and terrorized its own people. I mean, let's not get too ahead of ourselves, surely, in sort of saying, well, actually they're not that bad, so therefore we should trust them about the enriched uranium, which they're enriching at quite a rate. We should trust them about other areas of how they go about their business. Should we?

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Well, let me answer in two points with the points. The first one is you should never trust anyone, especially when it comes to nuclear weapons. We should trust and verify. But I remember the short stint I had in government. I also had the the honor of having a brief discussion with Barack Obama in the White House, and this was in April 2015. I want to talk to him about Greece's debt disaster and our, you know, awful economic crisis. He didn't want to talk to me about that. He wanted to talk to me about how proud he was of his deal with Iran and with the European Union, because that deal, you will recall, included extremely arduous verification processes. All the Iranian facilities would have been opened for inspection by international inspectors. There would be cameras, there would be sensors. There would be everything that is necessary in order to trust and verify. So that's the first part of the question. Ironically, isn't it terribly ironic that if you think about it, the best that Donald Trump can get now is something like that agreement that Obama had already struck with the Iranians and the Europeans and the Germans were really very, very gung ho about it, including Angela Merkel, the chancellor at the time, and which then Donald Trump, the moment he was elected, not because he had any stronger opinions about this, he just wanted to bring down anything that Obama had done. And it was a direct request by Israel. But the second thing I want to say. Allow me. I need to say that Iran is the only country that has not invaded any of its neighbors. It was invaded brutally by Iraq. That invasion sought 5000-005006-00000 people die in Iran. Chemical weapons were used with the acknowledgment of support or turning a blind eye of the West. The Houthis, the Hamas, the Hezbollah, partisans, guerrillas. Call them terrorists, call them whatever you want. I don't call them terrorists that Iran did support. Where they are. How shall I put it? They are movements that sprang out of many years of mishandling of the Middle east, let's put it very mildly, by the West, I mean Hezbollah. Hezbollah would never have happened, it would never have existed if Israel had not brutally invaded Lebanon in 1982, and then the Iranians supported them and funded them. Now, do you consider Hezbollah to be terrorists? Well, if you come from the Israeli side, yes. If you come from the Shiite population of south Lebanon, you consider them a lifeline. So, you know, let's be nuanced about that.

[Piers Morgan]

But when you say, okay, but Yanis, when you say that Hamas are not terrorists, I mean, what we all witnessed on October 7th was 3,000 people charging over a border and committing heinous acts of terror against any civilians they could get their hands on. And so military, but predominantly civilians. They were kidnapping babies, they kidnapped Holocaust survivors, they slaughtered young people at a music festival. They were bombing, setting fire to things and so on. This is surely the most blatant act of terrorism imaginable. Why would you not categorize Hamas, at the very least post October 7th as terrorists?

[Yanis Varoufakis]

I consider those to be hideous and heinous war crimes. And there's no two way about that. Any. Any.

[Piers Morgan]

You know, why not terrorism?

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Well, because, you see, I have a problem with terrorism because, you know, the IRA used to be terrorist until we had a Good Friday agreement, and then they became partners in peace. You know, Nelson Mandela was admonished as a terrorist when I lived in England. Margaret Thatcher, remember calling him a terrorist. And then he became one of the greatest statesmen in the world. So I have a problem with the word terror because you see the whole point about the hideousness of human Endeavors when it comes to defeating one another is to terrorize one another. But, you know, I do believe in international law. International law is very clear. What happened, what you described were war crimes, and I have no problem condemning them as war crimes. What I do not condemn, however, is an attempt by anyone, not just Palestinians, but by anyone, to escape any legal fence around the open air prison concentration camp that has been erected in order to deny them the human dignity, the whole existence of Gaza. Gaza is not a country. Remember that when they say, I remember when everybody was talking about the war between Israel and Gaza. Gaza is not a country. It was an open prison camp or a concentration camp that was effectively utilized in order to propagate ethnic cleansing and slow genocide. So, of course, these are extremely delicate divisions, distinctions to make, but they are very important distinctions to make. You know, I recognize the right of Ukrainians to kill Russians when Russians are invading Ukraine. Right? I do not recognize the right of Ukrainians to kill Russian civilians intentionally. So we have to stick to the great success of the human spirit in 1945 of introducing international law whereby we have very clear definitions of what is allowed in war. You know, when is the people allowed to rebel against their incarceration, their ethnic cleansing, their abolition from the face of the earth? When is a war crime turning into genocide? You know, remarkable scholars, and most of them Jewish, did a lot of great work defining those limits. And we have to. That has it.

[Piers Morgan]

The third question people raise is, now the war is at the stage it's at a month in. Is it not essential for the future of the region, of the wider world that Israel and the United States win that war? What do you say to people that argue that, in other words, the lesser of two evils?

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Well, I'm sorry, that's the greatest of the two evils. Here you have an unlawful war started by Israel and by the United States. It's a criminal war. Anybody who tells me that the right solution to that is for the United States and Israel to win is essentially telling me that they have no concern at all about international law and they would like to see the violators of international law be the victors. I can't see that.

[Piers Morgan]

What do you think is going to happen here, Yanis? Because like I said at the start, I think Trump has made a big miscalculation. I think he was urged into doing this by Benjamin Netanyahu, who told him, the people will rise up once we decapitate the leadership. We've got them all in our sights. We can take out the AYATOLLAH and then the rest will follow. And it just hasn't followed that way. And in fact, the Iranians have been waging kind of asymmetrical war, which has not meant meeting might with might, but has been meeting might with a very cunning strategy of closing the Straits of Hormuz and also targeting the neighboring Gulf states in a way that has kept people away from going there, which has severely damaged the energy output and so on. This has been, from a tactical point of view, very cunning by the Iranians and it has proved to be a very effective so far way of responding to far superior military firepower. Where does it go, this war?

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Well, allow me to preface my answer by saying that the fact that Donald Trump didn't have a plan B, possibly because he was rushed into it by Israel, as you said, is inexcusable. The fact that he didn't even have a plan A is lamentable because I can't see what his plan A was. And finally, the manner in which he's flip flopping from calling for negotiations to promising total destruction, as if this is going to create some kind of constructive ambiguity that will threaten the the government of Iran. It won't. They've been preparing for this now for a very long time. Everything that you described as their retaliation for the attack on their country has been utterly predictable, utterly predictable. Of course it would shut down the states of Hormuz. I mean, who didn't? Who couldn't? I can't believe that in the Pentagon there were people who didn't foresee this. So it's all a big puzzle. Now. You are asking me for a prediction. Allow me to indulge in a little bit of wishful thinking. I would like to imagine that like the Roman emperors of the late Roman Empire who sent legions to what is today Germany and got their backsides beaten by the Goths, you know, those Roman emperors would declare victory and hold the triumph in Rome. I hope that he does that. I hope that he gives us a long speech, two hour speech on why he won everything when he has won nothing and retreats. But I very much fear that the escalation ladder is becoming an escalator now. And if he puts boots on the ground, even with a limited mission of taking, let's say, an island or two in order to start bargaining after that with the Iranian government, I very much fear that the escalation ladder is going to be climbed by the Iranians who will use the Houthis in order to block Suez. And then we will go from A major crisis when it comes to the oil market and generally our economies to catastrophe.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, the problem is that they've realized in the last month that if you strangle the global supply of oil and gas and fertilizer, you can wield enormous, devastating economic power in a way that carries with it actually a lot of political power.

[Yanis Varoufakis]

But didn't we know that, Chris? Didn't we all know that?

[Piers Morgan]

Well, I get, look, clearly there has been, I mean, I would have thought these were obvious things. We're told that obviously that the administrations say from American Israel, they knew this would, this would happen. They were surprised by the scale of it. I'm not sure why you would be. You know, honestly, I'm completely mystified how this now, why it started, how it plays out. The mission statements have changed every 10 seconds. I'm no longer even sure they know what their goal is or what victory looks like. And I do fear we are tripping into in the same way it happened with Iraq and with Vietnam and all these other places that you start with a few hundred troops going and before you know it, it's a full scale hell hole. And it's very hard to extricate from that. And that's what worries me about where we are now because I just don't think Donald Trump quite knows what to do. And that's a pretty scary reality for the President of the United States.

[Yanis Varoufakis]

It's clear that he's classic at straws, trying to find some way of de escalating and getting out. And I hope he finds one. And if he can't find one, just do it anyway. But the only explanation I can have because I'm equally puzzled is that, well, Netanyahu has a single minded commitment to never ending war, to permanent war, because it's his way of staying in power and it's his way of continuing the ethnic cleansing of the West Bank. That's the only thing he cares. So while you and I and everybody else, we're talking about Iran or Greenland or South Lebanon, he can continue his dirty deed in East Jerusalem, in West bank and stay in power, keep clinging on power in Tel Aviv, in Jerusalem. We know that that's what he wants. And I have no doubt that he to convince Donald Trump that, look, if you join us in bombing Tehran and we get rid of the leadership of Iran in the same way that Israel got rid of the leadership of Hezbollah or of Hamas, then there will be a revolution, a popular revolution, and you just need to sit back in your armchair in the White House. And watch the Iranian government collapse. That is the only thing that makes sense to me. It's not particularly sensible that he accepted that Donald Trump. We don't know what other leverage Benjamin Netanyahu had on him. We will never know for another 10, 20 years. But it is a very sad state of affairs that the rest of the world depends on these little games played between Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, we shall see how it plays out, but I share your sense of foreboding. Yanis, thank you very much indeed for joining me.

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Well, thank you, Piers.

[Piers Morgan]

Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask for only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan Uncensored on Spotify and Apple podcasts. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain. And we'll do it all for free. Independent Uncensored media has never been more critical and we couldn't do it without you.